A scene from “Big Love” from HBO.com
Actress Ginnifer Goodwin plays one of three wives of Bill Paxton’s character on the HBO series “Big Love.” She said that her character on the show is not from the same “world” as the polygamist sect that was raided by authorities after abuse allegations. Goodwin says that “Big Love’s” version of polygamy is “sugar coated,” and that it’s meant for entertainment. She also briefly mentioned something that been getting a lot of attention by the media lately, the style of the women’s hair and clothing, calling it “compound chic”:
“My character does not come from that world,” the 29-year-old actress told PEOPLE. “She’s married into a family who come from that world but are no longer a part of it. My clothes on the show are a little outdated, not my personal taste, but certainly not ‘compound chic.’ ”
Nonetheless, Goodwin noted that violence and abuse is “certainly implied” in the critically acclaimed show.
“We’re acutely aware of what goes on in real life,” she said. “Ours is a sugar-coated version. But we feel we are educating. We find the human story very compelling.”
[From People.com]
I’ve seen most of the first season of “Big Love,” and the show is incredibly entertaining and well done, but of course hunky Bill Paxton makes polygamy seem more glamorous than it is. Good for Goodwin for saying that it’s not like real life, but she was gracious about it and surely didn’t offend her employer.
Teen boys are routinely kicked out of the cult with nowhere to go
The case of the raided polygamist compound in Eldorado, Texas has captured the interest of the media. There are allegations of pregnant teenage girls as young as 13 married off and pregnant by husbands in their 50s. It’s not just the teen girls who suffer in the insular society of the cult. CBS News has an interview with a young man pushed out by the cult. He’s called a “lost boy,” which is a term for the young men kicked out by the sect for minor indiscretions because they serve as competition for the older men trying to monopolize the women. Brent Jeffs is the nephew of leader Warren Jeffs, and he spoke about how young boys are just dropped off in town after they’re kicked out, and they often have no one to call and nowhere to go. He was interviewed along with a woman who runs a nonprofit organization that strives to help these “lost boys” abandoned by the cult.
Polygamist men defend their practices
CBS News also has an interview with some of the men from the sect. They said they don’t abuse children and that girls are not married off until they’re mature. One member said “a few years back, the law in Texas allowed a girl to be married when she was 14,” and that “”I have taught my children to be morally clean. They have no contact, no sexual contact until they are of a mature age. And none of my children have been touched in that way. None of them have been abused in that way.”
It really broke my heart to see interviews with the women separated from their children. All children under five were allowed to stay with their mothers, but 416 children over the age of five were removed and are under state custody. There are court hearings about whether they should be placed in foster care, and it seems as if everyone was considered guilty before these families were given a chance to show that their children are safe and well cared for.
If one child is at risk, they should all be removed, according to Texas Attorney General
MSNBC has an interview with Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, and he said that “if these children, young girls under the age of 16 have been victimized by being sexually assaulted by men in this compound it means that not only the girls who were sexually abused, but all of the children in that compound are potentially victims and it will be critically important to separate those children from that criminal kind of situation.” He said “This is treated like any other situation where there is a sexual assault of a child in a home” and explained that if one child is abused that all the other children are removed because they are also at risk. He said that they can’t live with someone who can potentially harm them. The ACLU has said that this case brings up basic Constitutional issues about whether people are secure in their homes with their families “absent evidence of imminent danger.”
You kind of understand that they’re trying to stop this cult that abuses teen girls, but it seems there must be some kind of compromise that can be reached so that the mothers can be with their children. Meredith Viera reported that more than 300 attorneys have volunteered to represent these children for free. Hopefully some kind of legal solution will be reached soon, because it seems much better than sending these hundreds of kids into the foster care system.
Polygamist Women don’t cut their hair, like to keep it up
I went off on a bit of a tangent there, this case has been fascinating me for a while and I wanted a chance to report on it. As for the women’s hair and clothing that I mentioned earlier, AP has a story that they don’t cut their hair “because they believe they will use it to wash Christ’s feet during the Second Coming.” Their long pioneer-looking dresses “are meant to show modesty and conformity,” and may help stop competition in an environment in which one man has many wives.
Meredith Viera also asked one of the older women about her hair, and she got embarrassed and said “it just keeps it out of our face so we can see… we like to have long hair and have it done up”
As much as I know that Polygamy is wrong and illigal there IS a difference between those who are in these crazy compounds and those like the family in Big Love. I’ve seen interviews with family’s where all the women made the choice and they’re all one big seemingly happy family, ina modern home, with modern clothes… there are just multiple wives. I believe one legal one and the others are just like… spiritual or whatnot. I don’t think its RIGHT necessarily but if its a decision you make as a family and as adults and not something that’s been forced on you – no underage marriage, no beatings etc then i say do what you feel is right for you and your family.
Ginnifer Goodwin provides a news flash!
Anyone who has watched “Big Love” knows that (a) her character does not come from a compound background, and (b) Bill Paxton’s and Chloe Sevigny’s do. I’m not saying that “Big Love” is a documentary, but it does show two different “types” of polygamous communities. And the compound is definitely one of those.
Clearly even the compound on the TV show is sanitized for our protection, but…I don’t know anyone who looks at even that portrayal and says, “Hey, that’s for me!”
My heart breaks for these raped girls and cast-off boys. 13 year olds should be playing, not being forced to have sex with 50 year olds. Remember at that age, 20 seems positively ancient and sex is mysterious and gross. For adults, let them do what they want, but for the minors this is particularly foul. I’m sure the lawyers had those men get on TV and say they now renounce the practice of forcing minors into marriage (read: sex) in hopes they’ll get away easy for this. Nail ’em.
Doesn’t Ginnifer Goodwin’s character come from a non-polygamist -thus not just “not compound”- family (I thought she was a single child raised by her mother only and simply met Bill while working for him at his store)?
She’s the babysitter who fell in love with Bill’s “entire” family… She’s also the one who seems to feel the strongest about being married to Bill AND the two other wives.
Hmm my comment wont post! wah! I’ll try again.
I think there’s a big difference between polygamist compounds and a family who decides thats how they want to live their lives. With willing adults etc. I’ve seen profiles on TV on familys who have a bunch of kids together … a few wives etc. They live in a normal home and send their kids to normal school and wear normal clothes. Im not saying its a perfect solution but to me it seems like if there is nothing illigal going on (only one woman is legaly married to the husband) like underage marriage, child and spoucal abuse… then its more of a lifestyle choice and it seems like they should do whatever they deem okay for themselves and their family. Im not condoning polygamy but ithink there is a difference between the radicals and the people like the Big Love family.
I’m crazy for Big Love, and I’ve been dreadfully rubbernecking on this story since it broke. It breaks my heart that so many kids got dumped in the TX foster care system – there are never enough foster families as it is, I know a lot of those kids are probably stuck in a facility, which is no better place to be a kid than a weird religious compound.
It has to be a culture shock, too, if the sugar coated version of a polygamist compound on Big Love is any indication of how rustic those places are in real life.
I hope these mothers are reunited with their kids soon. I would assume most of them have been living within the cult for their entire lives, they likely need as much help and counseling as their daughters.
I think the show has implied that Ginnifer Goodwin’s character grew up Catholic. It was back when Chloe Sevigny’s character was having a fit about her kids being sent to a Catholic afterschool program.
I also think that in the show, Bill Paxton’s character was a lost boy. He was dropped off on the street after Harry Dean Stanton took over the compound. HDS was jealous/afraid of Bill.
They do sugar-coat the whole topic, but they almost have to. We’d have no sympathy for the adult characters if they didn’t. Bruce Dern’s spittle-flecked lunatic and HDS’s creepy prophet are ooky enough as it is.
In recent days, the media has been displaying a lot of sympathy for these mothers. The bottom line is, many of them are ENABLERS and, as such, their children should be taken away from them. I don’t think we should provide them any protection just because they *might not know what they’re doing is wrong. I DO believe they are victims too. But here in California, when a mother allows her child to be abused, or turns a blind eye to it, the law comes after her too. These mothers should be no exception. Especially since (allegedly) all they’ve ever known is allow their children to be abused. What do think will happen when their children are returned to them? Let the government sort it out, figure out who’s been abused and who hasn’t, and take care of it on a case-by-case basis.
bill paxton is a good argument AGAINST polygamy– who’d want to share him?
as for the interviews with the men, they seem to dance around a lot of issues. when asked about old men raping 13 year old girls, one man hemmed and hawed and hesitated, and then said HE would never sleep with a thirteen year old. and refused to answer about whether other men in the compound did. and in the interview you quote, notice how he’s deliberately vague about what age they consider a girl mature enough to marry– according to some testimony they consider thirteen year olds mature enough to go through their “spiritual” marriages. and in another interview one of the men said that he just hadn’t realized it was illegal for a 50 year old man to “marry” a 13 or 14 year old girl. nope he just hadn’t realized that there was anything wrong with it.
and while i feel for the parents who are devestated by their children being taken away, i understand the decision to do so. they’ve given multiple and different names to the authorities, lied about their ages– in the case of minors who said they were adults, and given different answers to who their parents are. they need to finish the genetic testing to make sure that that two year old baby really does belong to the 30 year old woman, and not to the 15 year old girl. i’m not for wholesale removal of children from their homes without reason, but they have enough proof that they need to investigate. if you were a 12 year old girl who had been brainwashed all her life, wouldn’t you want them to thoroughly investigate so you wouldn’t be raped next year by someone old enough to be your grandfather?
sorry for the book, but children are to be protected from predators, that’s a parent’s job. and it’s questionable whether these parents were. even if a particular parent wasn’t making their little girl “marry” an old geezer; living in that environment, where their friends and cousins were being forced and coerced into it, it wouldn’t be healthy for the child.
I wonder where all those strong men are, who fathered these kids, who are the priests of the religion, who claim teenaged brides, and who dominate the FLDS societies?
Where are the tough guys who preach the evils of the outside world?
They ran away from the mess so they wouldn’t have to undergo DNA testing and actually be forced to support their kids (rather than letting welfare taking care of them.)
I bet Big Love isn’t that far fetched. There are lots of polygamists in Utah who aren’t part of compound society – just quiet and hidden inside suburbia. If Mormons want to truly follow the fundamental word of Joseph Smith, the men have to knock up as many women as possible, as often as possible.
I think CPS are keeping the kids away from the mothers so that the mothers can’t coach them into lying for the sake of these absent men. In particular the girls need to be protected from the group think of the cult.
Where I live in Canada, there are a lot of Mennonite and Hutterite communities… basically Mormons without the polygamy. They dress conservative with homemade clothes and women have their hair done up, and aren’t allowed make-up or jewelry. But they have a lot of contact with the outside world, and come shopping a lot in the mall I work at. As far as I know the women marry men around their own age, and you’re allowed to leave the community if you want to. I used to think their lifestyle was harsh and outdated, but now that I hear more about these Mormons, their lifestyle seems like a breeze in comparison.
Mennonites don’t believe in the Book of Mormon; the only folks who do so are members of the Church of Latter Day Saints and the various offshoots.
There are different communities like the Mennonites & the Amish who all live a little differently. Some use no electricity & some use a little bit, etc.
Most Mormons aren’t polygamists & live normal everyday lives. I may be remembering incorrectly but I think the US government wouldn’t let Utah become a state until the Mormons gave up polygmy. And thats when alot of these ofshoots went under ground
Naive-charm…are you in the St. Jacob’s ON area? If so, that’s where I am too…funny.
I haven’t read enough to form an opinion on this, but I am 1/3 of the way through a FANTASTIC novel about a polygamist family. If you’re interested it’s called “Effigy” by Alissa York and will be available in America in 2008/2009. Here’s the description of it,
“In her beautifully crafted Effigy, Alissa York gives us the transcendent child bride Dorrie, the youngest of four wed to a Mormon rancher. Dorrie’s unusual dreams underscore York’s mesmerizing tale, which is rich in historical detail and driven by a cast of deftly drawn and perfectly memorable characters.”- Lori Lansens, best-selling author of The Girls
Regardless of how many children were taken and how deeply this whole thing has affected the mothers, what was happening on that compound was illegal in more ways than one. Firstly, it’s illegal in the United States to practice bigamy. None of these children have birth certificates or medical histories of any kind. The girls are taught at a young age that they are subservient to men and are there to give them children and to support the families. That’s all they are valued for, how many children they can produce. That’s probably why the girls are married off when they reach sexual maturity. They don’t receive a formal education or have contact with the outside world, lest it negatively impact the brainwashing they’ve received from the cult. So much of what goes on there – in addition to the obvious sexual abuse – is completely illegal and morally offensive.
And don’t get me started on Meredith Viera. Her handling of this business on the Today show is at best shoddy journalism and at worst blatant promotion of a lifestyle that revolves around the abuse of women and children. Her coverage is clearly slanted, and she coddles the cult members while verbally harrassing anyone associated with the state of Texas in this matter. She should be ashamed at herself for forgetting her journalistic obligation to remain neutral.
I have been very surprised at how sympathetically the sect wives have been covered in the media. I mean, part of the reason why the children have been separated from the mothers is because the women have been lying to the state officials and coaching the children to lie as well! The reason they have to do DNA swabs on all the kids is because the moms and kids keep changing their stories about whose children are whose.
I think the whole sect is creepy. It objectifies women — the men aren’t wearing outlandish, out-of-date clothing that marks them as separate from the rest of the world. A key tool for many abusers is isolation. Their lifestyle, their dress all isolate the women. All these women are part of the picture of abuse, whether they are being abused themselves or enabling it upon their sons and daughters.
Why is it that everyone focuses on these strange off-shoot religions only when they’re Christian? It’s one of the worst double-standards in the world today.
First, naive_charm, please do NOT confuse Mennonites with Mormon polygamists. We have Amish communes all over the place here in the Midwest, and besides occasionally getting stuck on the highway behind a horse drawn carriage, they’re really no trouble to anyone. Their children aren’t ‘brainwashed’ either, they’re just taught the beliefs their parents have. Doesn’t everyone try to ‘indoctrinate’ their children to their beliefs to some extent anyways?
My point is that we focus on these Christian denominations that are for all intents and purposes just offshoots, and not particularly popular (with the possible exception of Mormonism, but by far the majority of them don’t practice bigamy). No one talks about ‘tolerating’ their behavior or respecting their diversity – their views are just judged wrong.
On the other hand you’ve got Islam – A religion where the vast majority of it’s practitioners believe in the complete segregation and debasement of women as nothing more than familial property. They are denied educations, married off as part of freaking business contracts, and allowed virtually no social interaction outside their family. If you criticize that though, you’re being ‘intolerant’.
I don’t like what these weirdos are doing any more than I like what Muslims are doing – and in no way condone or endorse either. What I am saying though, is that I find it hilarious how that story in Texas has caused such outrage when this stuff goes on every day all over the Muslim countries and no one says a damn thing about it.
I think people need to remember that those women separated were once children themselves, the cycle has perpetuated itself. When you live on a compound, that is your life. You know nothing but what is told to you, so why can you blame those women, when they have the same understanding as the children. They do as they are told or they suffer the consequences.
FLDS, LDS (mainstream mormonism), Amish and Hudderites are all very different things, and should not be confused.
LDS vs FLDS: I was born and raised LDS, my family goes back 6 generations, none were polygamists. Though it is in the history, it is in no way a part of our current culture, just like America and slavery. Polygamy is not accepted by the LDS church/community and results in excommunication. This is just ONE of the MANY differences.
Amish vs Hudderites: My grandparents have a large farm in Canada, where I would spend my summers, down the road there was a Hudderite colony– very wonderful people, who originate from Germany, use electricity and motor vehicles, though they choose a very humble and modest dress. In difference to the Amish, who are from Switzerland, and choose to live without all modern day advances and technology.
Obviously there are many more differences between all of these, but those are the most prevalent examples, and I need to stop typing.
While I agree with pretty much everything you say Scott F. I do take issue with A religion where the vast majority of it’s practitioners believe in the complete segregation and debasement of women as nothing more than familial property.
First of all, its not the “vast majority of Muslims.” It just isn’t. The vast majority of Muslims have mainstream modern views. And the issue of treating women as chattel is a cultural thing. It predates Islam by thousands of years.
I have a degree in Religious Studies. That entails studying religions academically rather than from a faith based perspective. I’m positive that I’ll get loads of arguments & get called all kinds of things, but I’m just trying to explain what I learned.
Thanks for your input Jody
This cult would like for you to believe that they are being persecuted for their beliefs and you know what? They absolutely are.
In this country, your freedom of religion ends at the line where you break the law.
The investigators are doing the right thing here. If these women are so ingrained with the belief that not only do grown men have the right to marry, have sex with and impregnate underage girls but the moral obligation to do so, they cease to become acceptable parents for their children.
It’s sad because there are so many kids involved and many of these women were raised in this culture and do not know any better but ignorance is not reason enough to allow them to continue letting their children be abused.
And really, how can anyone expect a judge to give these children back without knowing for certain who the children belong to?
And why aren’t the men on the courthouse steps demanding the return of their children? What a way to be a supportive family.
Bodhi – just to say an excellent post. And I agree with a lot of what Scott F is saying. I wonder if this particular story is getting this focus because it’s happening in a 1st world country, as opposed to a third world country where Islamic fundamentalism has it’s deepest roots and expectations to some degree are different? My experience of Islam (UK, Europe, Ireland) is moderate 99% of the time. And people are very vocal this side of the pond, Muslims included, about the less palatable aspects of Islam.
To F.Scott –
“slam – A religion where the vast majority of it’s practitioners believe in the complete segregation and debasement of women as nothing more than familial property. They are denied educations, married off as part of freaking business contracts, and allowed virtually no social interaction outside their family. If you criticize that though, you’re being ‘intolerant’.”
Wrong again sir! The vast majority of Muslim women are educated. And most are given free educations by their governments. You are believing which right-wing newsletter for your interpretations of the world?
Christians, Muslims, Hindus, doesn’t matter – they all lend themselves to violent sexism, murder, genocide and massacres at the slightest provocations. You want to give your precious Xtianity a special victim’s status, be my guest, rend your garments and scream about the lions who killed your ilk (another overblown myth.) You sound no different from a Muslim whining about Western oppressors, while beating his wife, to me.
Bodhi – I wasn’t trying to imply that it was the vast majority of Western Muslims, but if you believe it’s not the vast majority of the world’s Muslims, that’s not what I’ve seen.
I really don’t care if it’s roots are in their religion or their culture, it still goes on among most families, and they get a free ride on the same behavior we are criticizing this cult for.
I respect your knowledge on the subject, you have a lot more schooling on the matter than I do and seem to be a pretty objective person. That being said, I think it’s safe to say I’ve walked the streets in a few more Muslim countries than you have. Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Qatar, ect. With the exceptions of Egypt and Kuwait, they have all been pretty extreme in their adherence to their faith. The women don’t leave home without male escorts, are always covered, aren’t allowed outside contacts, ect. Having not been to either Saudi Arabia or Iran (for obvious reasons), I can’t even comment on what seem to be the most extreme examples. In those countries stoning is still a popular pastime, homosexuals and women are regularly executed.
This is the norm in those countries, and if we’re going to call ourselves on it, then we need to call them out on their behavior too. Those women deserve basic human rights as much as American women do, and people need to start standing up for them.
And Plott – What the hell is wrong with you? Jesus, I don’t know what religion or religious person wronged you, but grow the hell up. Right wing newsletter? That’s pretty fucking rich. I know these things because I’ve actually been to these places, and talked to their people. How much first hand experience do you have exactly?
Quit following the crowd and blaming religion for all the world’s ills. There have been just as many massacres comited against religions as there have been for them. Secular leaders like Hitler and Stalin killed millions more than any crusade could have hoped for.
“How much first hand experience do you have exactly?”
A lot actually, and I know the ills of Islamic influence on government that pervade many, many countries. But I also know that most Islamic countries educate girls – while your contention is otherwise. The treatment of women, in the name of Islam, is abominable in the Middle East, but when our own Western governments were steered by religion, women were treated like possessions and commodities in no less a manner. Secular law is the only force that allowed for change in the treatment of women and our rights to vote and defend ourselves.
I’ve been up close and personal with religious governance and know that religion should have NO place inside government…period…no religion, under any guise.
Sorry plott, we just have to agree to disagree. Saying ‘well the women are educated by the government’ is like saying Communism in Cuba is a really swell thing because everyone gets free healthcare.
Religion will always be entwined with government, and it’s presence is generally neither all good or all bad. For all the crusades and inquisitions, how many millions of orphans were shepherded by the church over the millenia? How many millions saved in Catholic hospitals? How many millions have been fed, clothed, vaccinated, educated, ect. by missionaries?
Yeah, you can say Christian ideals held women back in this country to a certain extent, but have you forgotten that it was from the pulpits of the north that the abolitionist movement began? Religion can be credited in large part to disbanding slavery and eradicating segregation in the US. Martin Luther king himself was a preacher! It’s not black and white, and to view all religion as bad, or even it’s influence, is to be pretty damn close-minded in my opinion.
Where have I said the ME is “swell”?
Religion is NOT entwined with government. Every representative government on the planet has very strict rules about the influence of religion on law or rights. To a shameful degree, the US is allowing religious interference in law again, and it’s influence is corrupt at best.
For every abolitionist preacher there was an equally respected preacher who claim, as Jesus did, that slavery was natural and inevitable. There is nothing inside the Bible which condemns slavery, and it pretty much gives men the right to treat women as poorly as they wish.
the abolitionist cause was instilled in preachers from their own conviction, nothing in the bible says otherwise.
If some people have made good out of the religious experience, it isn’t due to the Koran or the Bible as I read them. Instructions for domination and duplicity, rules and judgement, sure, but both are very thin on morality and rights.
scott has a very good point, but i must say the fact is that it’s most certainly not most muslims who treat their women terribly… somone above cited culture as the reason for treating women as possesions, and i think that is what it comes down to…
plott: “There is nothing inside the Bible which condemns slavery, and it pretty much gives men the right to treat women as poorly as they wish.”
first part is true, second is absolutely not true. men are exhorted to “love your wife as you love your own body”…
Plott, for someone who accuses me of getting my views from right-wing literature, you’re sure tossing out a lot of tried and true leftist arguments.
Our modern ideas of equality and representative government ALL stem from religion, and predominantly Christianity. To try to deny that is to close your mind off from every piece of writing, philosophy, and introspection in western culture. The basic shift that allowed all of our revolutions was that God provided us with inalienable rights, that no government had the authority to infringe upon.
When the founding fathers talk about separation of church and state, they are referring to the ability of a government to deny it’s citizens to practice whatever faith they choose. They grant freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Separation of church and state as it’s viewed now is a concept that we didn’t have in this country until the turn of the 20th century.
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” – John Adams
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” Benjamin Fraklin [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
Scott F is very correct about the terrible treatment of women in the Muslim/Islam religion. Although some Muslim women have slightly broken away to have an education and a career (especially when living in a multicultural countries such USA, UK etc), the reality is that MOST Muslim women, especially those living in Islamic countries, are still treated very much as Scott F described it as “segregation and debasement as nothing more than property” and although the Muslim leaders continue to deny it and make excuses, in reality they are nothing more then LYING to save themselves from the scrutiny of the world (similar to many other wrong doing religions).
I know this well because I had to do a long study for this very topic, which required me to do numerous research into this issue.
From my research and studies, I can honestly say ALL RELIGIONS DO MORE HARM THEN GOOD, religion is responsible for spreading ignorance to the world and yes ALL religions (perhaps some more then others) vilifies women and are tough to be treated and think as lower valued to men and that is a fact no matter how you see it.
The reason why this is getting so much attention is obviously because it is happening IN AMERICA. If it were a muslim group doing the same thing, I have no doubt the coverage would be similar if not more intense. I agree that other cultures that treat women like crap should be criticized as well. It’s a global human rights issue, in my opinion. It sucks that the U.S. defends and supports countries that treat women horribly. In Saudi Arabia, women can’t even drive cars for goodness sakes! And our government bends over backwards for them. Would we do this for a country that treated an ethnic group like this? I highly doubt it.
I think people are missing the point here – the reason why this is getting so much attention in this country is because it IS happening here, and our laws are the ones being broken. It’s not appropriate to compare the situation with what goes on in other countries, because in spite of our recent war-like behavior, it’s really not up to us what goes on in other countries. Yes, it’s terrible what happens to women under the thumb of other religions, but those religions are not relevant to this particular case.
Can anyone confirm that FLDS is even recognized as a legitimate religion in the US? I always figured these communities were “tolerated” as long as they kept to themselves and didn’t bring any attention to their way of life.
There is no such thing as a “legitimate” religion or a list of recognized ones in the US. That is the beauty of freedom of religion in our country. You can believe whatever you want, provided your tenets or practices do not violate Federal, State, or other laws.
headache – there may not be “legitimate” religions, but there are a) religions recognized by the US Armed Forces, which is about as legit as it gets here, and b) illegitimate religions. often these are taken out because of treasonous actions or beliefs. if it can be made out to be advocating the overthrow of the gvmt or be part of a doomsday cult, out it goes. yet even in those cases, the BELIEFS are dragged through the mud as much as anything else (see: brach davidians. crazy mfs, and not a thing about them that wasn’t decried and deserved it)
Those women deserve basic human rights as much as American women do, and people need to start standing up for them.
Scott F.- You and I agree 100% on that. Whatever the justification, the maltreatment of women (& others) is unacceptable
Thanks Geronimo! 😀
I wrote my senior thesis on the legality of the treatment of LDS and later FLDS by state and federal governments, so I feel I have an adequate basis of knowledge to comment on this.
First of all DO NOT confuse LDS (the Mormon who lives next door to you) with FLDS. They are not the same. Polygamy is a major difference between the belief systems, but how major decisions are made is huge as well. Some one else said this, but I think its very important to remember.
FLDS were raided before (look up Little Creek, AZ) and after this raid they learned how they could gain the sympathy of the American public; by having mothers speak about about how their children were taken from them. When opinion changed, Arizona dropped the charges against the parents of abuse and polygamy, both of which are illegal. They again are using this tactic. I say tactic because from what I have learned about FLDS, that is what it is. Their main concern is maintaining their belief system, which means getting contact with their children and telling them what to tell investigators. This is witness tampering. It is illegal.
The amount of abuse in these communities is sickening as well. Not only do parents have the authority to beat the crap out of their kids, so do teachers, principles, bus drivers, your neighbors, etc. all for being un-pious, which includes being seen walking home in front of a boy (they assume you’re trying to carry on a relationship of some sort). If this happened in any other community in America, charges would be filed and jail time would be served. Abuse is abuse, whether your religion permits it or not. Religious bounds should only be respected to a point. If the Catholic church put on another inquisition (only against Catholics though), would you think it should be permitted? NO!!!
All I can say is read ANYTHING about FLDS and and you will lose all sympathy for them. One of my favorites is Escape by Carolyn Jessop (whom I think was related to one of those men in that interview through marriage), which is an autobiography. It’s interesting and informative. She compares FLDS to Jamestown, but without the Kool-Aid, which is an apt comparison.
I also forgot to say that FLDS are not considered a religion in the US because they do not get tax exemption. They are also not considered Christian, and to many other Christian faiths, regular LDS are not either because of their use of the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, etc. I personally don’t care either way. So long as you don’t use faith as a justification to mistreat another person, practice what you want.
I just feel for the children who are separated from their parents. The parents deserve what they’re getting, but the children just know they miss mommy!
Terrible.
I will first accept the entertainement industry when they start producing a tv show with one wife having 3 husbands, and everything they say is “no big deal”, “perfectly normal”.
This makes me sick.
Hello, I think you mean Jonestown if you are referring to Jim Jones’s little trip down to Guyana which ended in a fatal flavoraid party.
Jamestown was the Virginia settlement with John Smith, Pocahontas and all that jazz.
As for a religion being legitimate only when the military gets around the recognizing it, I’m sure many pagans would be offended by the idea that their branch of faith is not a legitimate religion.
And tax exempt status legitimizes the church, not the religion. Faith and religion in this country are not legislated nor do they go through any kind of approval process except for in the court of public opinion.
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Interesting, thanks for the book title hello
Hello:I appreciate your comments about the differences of LDS and FLDS, it’s nice to have others recognize this who are not a part of the LDS faith.
LDS people are Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all humanity so we might be saved through his atonement, and I find it quite ironic that other Christians deem it their right to approve other Christian sects, it doesn’t seem like a very Christian attitude to me.
I am also under the personal opinion of live and let live. I will respect whatever another chooses to believe, because that is their right.
And though people condemn religion as the ‘stupification of society’, please stop to think about how important it is for children to be raised with a moral compass, and while you don’t need religion to provide this for your child, it certainly provides that for some. Maybe this statement sounds ignorant, but what is wrong with believing, or having faith that there is someone guiding and directing our paths, someone that is there when others are not, someone who cares and loves us unconditionally.
This is just how I feel, and being married to an Atheist, I have this conversation on almost a daily basis– so don’t think I haven’t heard the other side.
These polygamists aren’t caring for their children. They defruading the tax payers wherever they live and are on welfare and food stamps. They are all taught that it’s fine to steal and cheat as long as they are providing funds for the prophets. There are several of these cults like the Jessops, that are worth over 400 million. Most of that is YOUR money they took from your hard work.
They are nothing but molesting cultists that like to dress their women like little prairie girls, the pinafore’s and dresses are fetishist even on Grandmother’s – it’s all very bizarre, and all of the children under 18 should be taken, if their mother’s don’t want to leave the cult so be it, the kids should be taken away. The cult shouldn’t get another generation of breeding slaves.
Another interesting thing – in TX you neither need a birth certificate or a death certificate. The only state in the Union where this is possible, you can literally live and die, and no one has to even know you ever existed. Scary huh? That’s why they moved to Tx from Colorado City Ut.
Big Love actually did present the compound that Bill came from in a very negative light, the unhealthy behaviours were pretty numerous. I always thought the very primal instincts became revealed in their extreme Biblical existance, from Bill’s mother poisoning his father to the creepy young bride his Dad took – and Bill’s character was in fact expelled from the compound by his own father at a young age. As for the home life, as presented on the show (I have only seen the first series as live in the U.K.), it was rarely smooth, always frought with tension and backstabbing underneath the happy families veneer. You do sometimes think “Aw they love each other really”, and Bill’s very placid religious attitude(compared to the compound) might be less realistic, but I am surprised the actress would not give the show more credit; it sounds like she is trying to distance it from promoting the lifestyle and suffering in the ratings when anyone who watches it can see it is total fantasy/not to mention very unpleasant in most respects.
Of course the women are lying and trying to get their children to lie. When you come of age you take an oath that if you reveal any of the covenants taken, you agree to have your tongue ripped from its roots and your throat slit from ear to ear (their words, not mine).
Since when did religion become completely separate from culture? They are by no means synonymous, but they can’t be fully separated either because of the ways each shapes the other. Therefore religious expressions are not uniform across cultures, and cultures are not defined solely by religion. But there is certainly a lot of overlap, which a lot of people seem unable or unwilling to recognize.
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