Joss Whedon is a noted feminist. He always has been. He’s always been vocal about the need for more women in film, more female-driven stories and more interesting roles for women. What’s great is that Joss is also, like, one of the King Nerds of Marvel. He has “street cred” with a lot of fan-boys and when Joss says something about feminism and film, a lot of those fan-boys listen. Which is why I kind of love what Joss had to say about men and feminism and what men can do to help the sisterhood. From Vulture:
Vulture: How would you advise men in the world who are shy about saying they’re into feminism? What do you think is the best way to support the cause?
Whedon: Well, they need money, they need volunteers. Action is the best way to say anything. A guy who goes around saying “I’m a feminist” usually has an agenda that is not feminist. A guy who behaves like one, who actually becomes involved in the movement, generally speaking, you can trust that. And it doesn’t just apply to the action that is activist. It applies to the way they treat the women they work with and they live with and they see on the street.Vulture: Especially since you participate in the online realm, where things can get a little hateful, what for you is the most surprising thing about how people attack each other because of sex or gender?
Whedon: You know, it’s one of those things that’s always surprising. I was raised by a very strong woman, I didn’t know feminism was actually a thing until I left home and found out the country didn’t run the way my mom’s house did. So I have this goldfish, idiot, forgetful thing in that every time I’m confronted with true misogyny, I’m stunned. I’m like, Really? That’s like, I don’t believe in airplanes. It’s like, What century are you from? I don’t get it. So usually I’m shocked, then occasionally amused, then occasionally extremely not amused, but once I get over the shock, it’s very clear that misogyny in our own culture — and not just where they perform genital mutilation and marry off 10-year-olds — runs so deep. When I see this hate bubbling up towards any kind of progress, my reaction is twofold: First, it’s horror, and then, it’s delight, because you don’t get this kind of anger unless real change is actually happening. It is a chaotic time. It’s an ugly time because change is happening. It would be lovely to be living after the change has happened.Vulture: Did you have to send a scolding “Tsk, tsk” email to Mr. Elba?
Um, should he receive an email from me, there might be an attitude of scold.Vulture: I’m sure Marvel Studios head Kevin Feige was in touch …
Yeah, when you have a cast of 19,000 people, inevitably, once every month, you pick up [a story] and you’re like, “Awww.”
I left that comment about Idris in for a reason – some people speculate that Idris really ruined a wonderful surprise when he told The Telegraph that he and Tom Hiddleston/Loki definitely have small parts in The Avengers: Age of Ultron. So, Joss is going to “scold” Dris? I understand completely, although I love it when actors speak out of turn and ruin it for everybody. It’s such delicious gossip. As for Joss’s comments on feminism… yep, he’s right. About everything. Yay for Joss, because he’s able to articulate advanced thoughts on feminism when so many women fail.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
HONK for Whedon!
HONK HONK
AIR HORN!
HONK!
Loud Christmas Dorito fart!
Lol
Honk honk!!!
Honk Honk Honk. Awesome, awesome man.
HONK!
HONK!!
The creator of Buffy deserves a long, drawn-out HONK!! Love me some Joss!
what a wierd thing to say-“true misogyny”-like is it not real unless he deems it to be? also i assumed the honking was a bad thing, pity. If hes such a feminist why did he fire Christina Carpender for being pregnant. all those words he said were very nice, would be nicer if he practised them.
A true ally to the movement. I hope nothing terrible tumbles out of his past or there would be some very, very, very disappointed people (me).
Sounds like a great guy
I love that Joss Whedon can speak intelligently about feminism and about men being feminists (in their everyday life, as well as by becoming activists). But I wish that The Avengers had more women characters. We have Maria Hill, who is like Nick Fury’s secretary, and then we have the Black Widow, whom I like but is intended to ping our historical stereotypes of the femme fatale/Mata Hari/sexy-dangerous-woman-spy (that said, I think she is being written to have some depth which I appreciate). I know we’re getting Scarlet Witch in the next Avengers but I think Marvel overall can do much, much, much better in terms of giving girls (AND women) female action superheroes.
Agreed. I think he’s a good person in a personal way and I very much appreciate his statements, but I don’t necessarily think he’s the Feminist Media God he’s sometimes made out to be. I do think he tries, but his own work has some issues with representation of women as well.
Yeah I agree. Buffy had a lot of hidden issues that kind of got overlooked by SMG’s buttkicking. It had definite anti-feminist moments.
You’re kidding right? Maria Hill is not Fury’s secretary – she’s his second in command, his most trusted confidante, his protege who, in the comics, ends up running SHIELD. Black Widow is badass, as is Agent Carter, who was the breakout star of the Captain America films and is now getting her own show, produced by Whedon.
And what about Buffy? What about the kickass women of Firefly? Echo of Dollhouse?
Marvel recently released a list of the movies they’re making through 2019. We’re getting a Captain Marvel movie in 2018!
And you can’t just look at his work with Marvel to judge him (after all, he was hired for the Avengers and he’s working for Marvel and Disney…he kind of has to listen to what they want to do, too). All of the television shows he’s made (they’re excellent, you should totally watch) have amazing, strong, multi-dimensional women in them.
Although @MSat…I have to say, while I love Eliza Dushku, she made Echo a snooze (although, she got better once Fox let Joss take over creative control more). I thought Adelle DeWitt was a much more fascinating character to watch!
Well, this is not necessarily Whedon’s fault, not having more female characters. Historically the majority of female characters are not as prominent as the male characters. Whedon can’t just make a woman more prominent than she is in the Marvel Universe. He would risk the wrath of the fanboys and fangirls. He needs to be faithful to the story.
I am one of those people that hates it when written stories are changed to suit the audience just because it’s more PC. I don’t mind some changes, but if it changes too much then it bugs me. I am not very familiar with the Marvel stories to know who the characters are. The only females I knew were Storm and Sue Storm and Mary Marvel.
Anyway that’s my take on this.
Oh and Joss is cool with his feminist stance. His mom did a great job.
Maria Hill a secretary? No. Just… no.
(Not that there’s anything wrong with secretaries!).
He has written a Wonder Woman movie, but can’t get it greenlit (greenlighted?). He’s mentioned Cobie Smulders as WW.
Buffy is still my favorite tv show of all time.
I really like this quote: “A guy who goes around saying “I’m a feminist” usually has an agenda that is not feminist. A guy who behaves like one, who actually becomes involved in the movement, generally speaking, you can trust that. And it doesn’t just apply to the action that is activist. It applies to the way they treat the women they work with and they live with and they see on the street.”
Not only does Joss Whedon present as an ally to gender equality, but he has a track record of backing it up by protraying strong, kick-ass women in movies and TV projects.
He makes a great point about things getting ugly during times of change. Angry White Dudes are in a constant freakout state right now, because it’s becoming more and more clear that they aren’t running everything anymore, and they don’t like it. Angry White Dudes are making a lot of noise – just like that last T-Rex before the meteor hit. Tick, tock.
There’s another quote of his from a while ago that made me all tingly inside. I might be paraphrasing, but it’s close to, “Recognizing someone elses power does not diminish your own”. Pay attention fellas, this is how it’s done. Joss forever!
I am not really a Joss Whedon fan, I never watched Buffy or Firefly though I did see The Avengers (which I think he directed?). But I’ve always appreciated how vocal he is about feminism, he is one of the few guys in entertainment who seems like a legit ally. I work in digital publishing, specifically comics and there is a sexism debate at least once a week (which many of you have probably not been aware of because some of it is relatively minor and doesn’t make many waves). Usually it involves female bloggers complaining about some artwork (usually a cover) featuring an inaccurate depiction of a female character’s body. The male Internet comicsphere will then predictably try to shut it down and send that female blogger death threats. It’s a predictable but very vicious cycle.
Just last night on ABC they had the 75th anniversary of Marvel special. I watched about the last 20 minutes: all white men talking about white male superhero characters. There was about 2 seconds of one woman mentioning Ms. Marvel and that’s it. The rest was commentary from predictable Stan Lee, Kevin Smith, Seth Green, and other white male Marvel execs. And the whole thing was hosted by Emily Vancamp which sort of confused me but whatever.
Please watch Firefly. Now. I will understand if it’s not your taste but it really is just fantastic. Huge rewatchability factor, too.
To your second paragraph…totally get what you mean, although it IS reflective of the times when those superheroes were created. It’s starting to change which is great, but it’s still very much a guy’s world. Don’t get why Emily VanCamp was there either, unless she’s gunning for a Marvel casting. Granted, I’ve only seen a couple of episodes of Revenge, a show that probably doesn’t allow her to showcase any extraordinary acting skills she may have BUT there are so many amazing actresses that could fill those spots. Jessica Chastain’s name has been thrown out there and I could totally get on board with that. This might be a bad idea but I’d also be interested to see if Christina Hendricks could do that role. Besides Mad Men, I’ve only seen her in Firefly and Drive. I can’t tell if she’s an excellent actress that just hasn’t been able to show her full range or is more like January Jones – great in her Mad Men part, but that’s about it.
Emily Van Camp was in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. She played Shield Agent Sharon Carter. In the MCU she was Peggy Carter’s younger sister.
@Kim. Thanks!! I still haven’t seen the Captain America movies 🙁 Everyone says Winter Soldier is the best though (though when I was hearing that Guardians hadn’t come out yet).
Is Emily Van Camp good in it?
@Mira
So far Winter Soldier has been my favorite of the MCU Phase 2 films (yeah I’m a nerd LOL).
Emily was pretty good. She had one ( I think two) scenes with Chris Evans and one with Robert Redford. She may have had another two scenes. I saw the the movie earlier this year so I kinda forgot. 🙂
Didn’t he act really creepily and misogynistic towards that actress on Angel who got pregnant, and eventually fire her?
And didn’t his future plans for the ’empowered prostitute’ on Firefly include her being brutally raped to death by a ship full of monsters?
Didn’t he create a whole tv series around a woman who is brainwashed and rented out to have sex with men?
Didn’t he have Buffy eventually fall in love to her would-be rapist, the man who commissioned a ‘Buffy-bot’ to have sex with?
And doesn’t he seem to only create one kind of woman, the waifish, big-eyed, sexualized child-woman, like Buffy and Echo and River and probably Scarlet Witch?
And didn’t he have Loki call Natasha the British equivalent of a ‘weeping c*nt’ in the Avengers?
I feel like he doesn’t really understand misogyny all that well.
Well, gosh – when you say it like that I feel kinda dirty for liking the guy.
Like him all you want, Dara! I enjoy his work for the most part. I just don’t think he’s the end-all of male feminism.
Irene – your post really got me thinking (in a good way) about why I really didn’t notice, let alone was offended, by all the instances you’ve mentioned.
@JWQ had an excellent point below. Back when Buffy, Angel and Firefly first came on the scene there just weren’t that many female characters that were A) the center of the story and B) fully realized characters in their own right. Most of the time any female characters were the wife/girlfriend/sister/plucky assistant whose only purpose seemed to be the damsel in distress, object of desire or the moral compass for the flawed-yet-ultimately-heroic main character.
I think I was so dazzled by the fact that Joss wrote stories where the girl was the central character (whose actions were the thing that actually moved the story forward) that I just didn’t notice some of the more objectionable aspects. Or, and this might be a better reason, her character and personality were fully formed – complete with strengths AND flaws/weaknesses. There were mistakes, regrets, messy personal dramas, and plenty of other distractions, but our heroine still managed to kick-ass when the occasion required. And then, when the world was safe for another day, she went back to worrying about finding a date for the prom or shopping for the perfect pair of shoes.
I guess my point is that his heroines weren’t just Rambo in a dress. They were heroic to be sure, but they were also unique individuals – who just happened to be female. Their gender was not the most important aspect of their character.
Dara, I cannot stand female characters who have no flaws. They are Mary Sues, boring, and absolutely not relatable. I was definitely not saying that every female character needs to be perfect and flawless because that’ s the only way they can be portrayed without making them sexist! Far from it!
The problem is when their flaws are all related to them being women instead of them being human beings. Anya, Lilah, Willow, Tara, Drusilla and Faith were not perfect people, they had issues, but none of them had female-issues or traits of their personalities that are gender-related stereotypes.
Anya hated men because she was scorned, had she been a man, it would’ ve been the same (even though I’ ll admit to some double standards, because a man-hating woman male-Anya would’ ve caused an uproar).
Willow and Xander, in the beginning, were basically the same character, nerdy shy teenagers with secret crushes. Then she found out she was gay (with every problem coming out and adjusting to that situation can create). Then lost her lover, went apeshit and still had rage, guilt and self-destructive tendencies until the end of the show, all things men often do in movies.
Tara was Willow.2, and her main problems came from self-esteem, something everyone can have, regardless of gender.
Drusilla was insane, and Faith was alone, jealous, and needed parental guidance, and turned to the only person who could give it to her! It happened to be a man, and she happened to be a woman, but there are so many male characters with daddy issues who look for a parent in all the wrong places, that I do consider that gender-neutral.
As for Lilah, the best female character Whedon has ever written in my opinion, she was an ambitious cutthroath bitch, not dissimilar to male lawyers in any dramatic show with lawyers in it.
But how many men can you find in movies and tv shows that:
A) live their life as if having a girlfriend (not having sex, but having a girlfriend) is the most important thing in their life even if their job is to literally save the World (Buffy);
B) spend 14 episodes and a movie crying and being repeatedly rescued by a woman (River);
C) spend 14 episodes and a movie constatly hitting on a girl and have their main scene in the show revolving around being threatened to be brutally raped and then killed by a psychotic bitch (Kaylee);
D) enhance their work as a prostitute as the biggest thing their gender can accomplish, and only being relevant to the story when it comes to create sexual tension with the female lead who also rescues them (Inara);
E) do absolutely nothing besides being the love interest (Penny).
F) being saved by the female lead and stick around the show for no reason whatsoever besides getting into relationships with other female characters and nothing else until they die in a terrible way and get possessed by a demon who dresses them up in skintight leather (Fred).
I am sure there are few and far between male characters who can be shown to live some of these things, but they are not the norm, while female characters are almost alway like that! And I would’ ve been fine if there were ONE character once in a while with these female-issues, but they were everywhere.
I just think that to get rid of sexism in movies/tv shows, you should avoid any kind of real life or narrative stereotypes regarding women, write gender-neutral characters who happen to be women, instead of women who happen to be characters! And Whedon either does it only when he remembers it, or doesn’ t see what the problem in the stuff he writes is!
@JWQ – I get what you’re saying, agree with some things, am not so sure about others. I don’t know that I would identify with, or even enjoy watching, a gender-neutral character. Gender is a part of character, just not the most important part. But having a teenage girl venture into a dark alley or cemetary alone after dark (special powers or no) says a different, and more important, thing about who she is than if you had a 200lb 6’2″ high school quarterback do the same thing.
A character being male or female is not something to be ignored or minimized. Each gender has their own built-in set of traits that may be strengths or weaknesses in any given situation. For example, and it may not be the best example but it’s what came to mind first – if I have to fight off a (male) mugger, I know that a well-placed knee to a certain part of his anatomy is going to give me a better chance to get away than if my assailant was a woman. Then again, a thumb to the eyeball works equally well no matter who it is… and I hear ears of both sexes will come clean off if you yank hard enough. But I digress.
In my opinion you have to highlight the differences or you miss an opportunity to demonstrate they are not defects or deficiencies, just differences. Your examples point out the Whedon-verse may not have done with best job with that last part, but pop culture shouldn’t just ignore the gender issue, that’s a step backwards in my opinion.
Yeah, I mean, I think he’s written some amazing female characters but there’s some stuff that I just don’t understand his side of. He hasn’t spoken directly about stuff like the Charisma firing or Buffy-Bots, I’d be interested to hear his side of those. Maybe he’s evolved (he’s allowed, and I applaud him if he did). I won’t give you the Inara one though. It is really tragic how she was supposed to go out, but the rest of the story is that she was supposed to inject herself with something that made her rapists die terribly. And in Dollhouse, it was both sexes that were brainwashed and rented out (equal opportunity! ha).
He does like dem big eyes, though.
Interestingly, this article was written last year: http://www.autostraddle.com/thanks-but-no-thanks-joss-whedon-you-can-keep-genderist-while-we-tackle-sexism-204921/. Josh mimics a lot of the wording in it. I wonder if he read it and took a hard look at himself?
I should be clear; I AM a fan of Whedon’s work. I own Buffy, Angel, and Firefly on Blu-Ray. But over the years, there’s been a lot of recurring themes in his projects that have made me cringe.
I don’t think he’s a monster, but I don’t think he’s the epitome of male feminism and I dislike that he’s treated as such. I think the world can do better. And he did Cordelia dirty, which I will never get over.
But the Inara thing….. I don’t really care that she poisoned herself so the rapists would die when they raped her, it was still a gross way for the ‘prostitute’ character to go out. Maybe if the hero of the show hadn’t spent so much time deriding her and calling her a wh*ore, it wouldn’t have stung so bad. all I know is that I was glad it was cancelled after reading about his future plans for the character.
I’d be pleased if he’s taken a hard look at himself and tried to improve. But I’ll wait until Age of Ultron, and Natasha and Wanda’s writing to decide. ($10 says Wanda is going to be River Tam 2.0. Waify mentally challenged big-eyed, sexualized child-woman with magic powers.)
@Irene
I get you. With the Inara thing, I think the Reavers were so foul in general and the way they came up frequently, I kind of expected someone to die in that way. (RIP Wash :(, although not that brutally ) Thinking about it, it IS weird that the Inara storyline was one of the first Joss pitched. I guess I think it’s a plausible storyline without being sexist, but I’m not sure if I’ll believe that a week from now. Right now, I think I give him the benefit of the doubt of being a good example of pushing feminism in his works, and I think if we’re really going for equality, it’s okay to have storylines like that, as long as it’s within the scope of a multidimensional, kickass character. If that makes sense. That’s my kneejerk, but I’m still mulling it over.
The Dollhouse concept didn’t bother me because it was male/female. BUT for a lot the first season (I think this is when Fox had more control over the show though, before handing it over to Whedon), it made me uncomfortable that it was basically just “what hot male fantasy outfit can we put Eliza Dushku in this episode.”
Irene, i agree with you 100%!
I am a fan of most of the stuff he created, and when I was younger (I started watching Buffy when I was 14), I was in awe by how many kickass female characters there were in his works. Back then, if you wanted to see women being the centre of a story that revolved on supernatural and fight (and where romance wasn’ t the main thing), it was Buffy, Xena or Charmed (and I hated Charmed).
But then I grew up and started thinking… Buffy is supposed to be the ultimate female heroine, although she was kind of dumb, interested, mostly, in how to get a boyfriend, and falls in love with two vampires, one of which tries to rape her, and the other doesn’ t respect her enough to let her choose how to live her own life. And let’ s not forget that the women in the show ALL have super-powers because they can’ t survive without, but the men don’ t and have no problem staying alive (as in, women need help, while men can do it themselves)!
Angel’ s only good female character was Lilah, a villain! Everyone else was either boring or stupid! (never gotten the love for Fred and Cordelia).
Firefly was just a mess regarding female characters. The only one who was decent was Zoe, the others were a damsel in distress who only fights once in the entire run and spends the rest of the show crying or getting in any sort of trouble, a ditz whose main drive is to bone the cute one of the crew, and a prositute whose main contributions to the story consist in creating sexual tension with the hero and being saved by him!
In Dr. Horrible the only female character is your standard female love interest: boring, naive and absolutely useless.
The Avengers could’ ve been made without Black Widow and Maria Hill and would be the same: that is how much important the only two female characters were.
When The Avengers came out he released an interview saying that the only reason why women like Loki is because they find Tom Hiddleston attractive, which is an insult not only to him, but also to women who, apparently, cannot think straight and rationally if there is someone decent looking! I mean, who cares if you are intrigued by the relationship between the two adopted brothers and how he must feel after finding out he is not an Asgardian or appreciate the acting? Hiddleston has great hair and eyes, who cares about anything else?
I give him a pass about the Charisma Carpenter firing: apparently she kept the pregnancy secret until the last minute, and the entire fourth season of Angel had to be rewritten (with loss of money and quality) because she didn’ t warn anyone about it. I can believe he didn’ t fire her because she was pregnant but because she didn’ t tell him about something that important.
I like what he says about feminism, but as you said, I too don’ t think he is the patient zero of male feminism and I don’ t like the fact that everyone treats him like he is without even pointing out the flaws of his works regarding it!
Did you see his show ? Because that is not how I saw them, again and again. And I’am a hardcore femisnist. I tend to notice that kind of things.
What JaneFR said.
I love him. More people like him in Hollywood would be awesome.
Yeah, more people like him everywhere would be awesome. Like in the Senate. 😉
Love Joss so, so much. I hope his fans, men and women alike, really listen to the stuff this guys says. Especially with the con and gamer stuff going on right now, attitudes toward women in geek circles have become really scary. I’m so glad people like Joss who have high profiles and insist upon strong, dynamic female characters in their projects will stand up and be vocal allies. The stuff some of our fellow women are saying lately is seriously hurting the cause (Salma, if you’re advocating for women, be a freaking advocate!). Feminism is not bad word. Feminism = Equality. Joss and Sir Patrick are definitely two of my very favorite celeb feminists. Smart guys are embracing it. Smart women should too.
Love Joss Whedon. That is all.
More Whedon!!!!!!!
What I love, about what Joss is saying, is the inclusion of his mother. Mother’s ARE all that!
This guy is great.
The problem is, of course, that he has positioned himself to be the authority on what ‘real mysogyny’ is. That’s a man’s job, naturally.
I often feel like Whedon’s got a reputation for being a “woman’s director” for doing the bare minimum and has developed a blind spot to his own privileges because of it, but I’ll give him credit that he’s willing to bring the conversation to the table. It’s a sad statement on how few directors will stand up for women.
I agree with the last line.
I wish more directors would stand up for women.
I also wish movie producers would do the same because they also have a certain power and higher level of authority (more than than most directors) when it comes creating, funding and releasing movies (if I’m not mistaken).