The MTV VMAs were like a cornucopia of trash and flash, and Miley Cyrus reveled in the day-glo spotlight. I didn’t go extremely deep in the VMAs hosting recap because over two hours of non-stop Miley added up fast, and the piece was long enough already. The big thing to focus on was how Nicki Minaj took a moment in her speech to call Miley out.
Otherwise, Miley was her usual mess of cultural appropriation, which I didn’t mention much because this is what she always does. Amidst all of Miley’s weed mentions, she wore a dreadlock-filled ponytail, did some degrading skits, and angered some people the whole time. Miley interacted like old buddies with Snoop Dogg, and she kissed the booty of her producer, Mike Will MADE-IT. I think Miley believes she’s flattering black culture with her enthusiastic embrace, but this is a girl who (in 2009) once bragged about never listening to a Jay-Z song. Miley’s newish persona comes off as insincere. Chance the Rapper reacted on Twitter over Miley’s hosting gig:
These skits <
— Chance The Rapper (@chancetherapper) August 31, 2015
The dreads <
— Chance The Rapper (@chancetherapper) August 31, 2015
I think shorty said "my real mammy" <
— Chance The Rapper (@chancetherapper) August 31, 2015
"Mammy" pic.twitter.com/kuwgo2lsNm
— Chance The Rapper (@chancetherapper) August 31, 2015
White squad…
— Chance The Rapper (@chancetherapper) August 31, 2015
Dude has a serious point. Miley feels free to “borrow” from black culture at will, but she also shrugs at the existence of racism. Just one example of this is her recent pre-VMA lecture to Nicki Minaj in the New York Times. Yes, Miley went mainstream media with how she completely “understands” where Nicki is coming from in her argument that “Anaconda” didn’t receive the same MTV prestige as “Wrecking Ball.” To be fair, both videos were ridiculous, but Miley was rewarded for her nudity. And Miley told the NYT, “I know the statistics. I know what’s going on in the world. I don’t think MTV did that on purpose.” Miley may work with homeless youth of all races, but she’s still pretty blind to her own privilege.
Here’s one thing I don’t understand. If Miley’s appropriation bothers Chance so much, why does he regularly hang with and perform with Justin Bieber?
Photos courtesy of Fame/Flynet & WENN
It seems like a young girl dressing up in her mothers clothes and makeup to try to be sexy. It is so forced that you need to look away. Her lack of confidence really shows.
Chance publicly disowned Biebs after the N word video. He doesn’t even perform their song together anymore.
I wish the entire world would publicly disown Bieber.
@Falula we DID. Blame skrillex and Diplo!
Consider this me publicly disowning Beiber. Makes me think of the “Office” moment when Michael Scott walks out onto the main floor and yells, “I. DECLARE. BANKRUPTCYYYY.”
I recoiled in horror when I read that – I love Chance but didn’t realize he’d been tight with Biever. Glad to know that’s over!
yep he does not f**k with JB anymore.
Looks like next year’s harvest will be even better
I think he looks hot in the overalls….imo
I think that the way that she acts and dresses is giving her a platform. ….. to get on my nerves and remind me to not to watch tv.
I can’t get over how much Miley and Biebs look like eachother. At first glance I thought that was a picture of Miley with a hat on.
I thought the same thing
O my word I thought it was Miley until I read your comment.
Same!
I thought so too.
ME TOO!!!!!! LOL. I’m dying over here…
I thought it too
She’s just the worst.
Miley: attention seeker.
I still dont see how one culture/race can ‘own’ a hairstyle and it’s racist if a person of a different culture does their hair that way. And I don’t support Miley at all I just dislike this ‘that’s nacho hairstyle’ crap.
It is not about owning a hairstyling. Also, I am seriously side eyeing the “nacho hairstlye” line but anyway. If we take Miley for example, she is in dreads, talking about her real mammy, etc. But then basically tells Nikki, an actual black woman, who has actually experienced racism, as every person of color be it African American, Hispanic, Asian whatever it may be to sit down and stop being the angry black woman. That is the problem with cultural appropriation. Things that are natural in a person of color are only acceptable when they are NOT on a person of color. If a white person so chooses to dress and act in a certain way because that is how they feel then so be it. The problem is when you act like none of these things are a problem for minorities because that is not how you’ve experienced it. But if you are not a minority then how can your experience be the same as mine?
I say this with the outmost respect: you are wasting your time.
No amount of explaining (and you did it well BTW) will help these people.
I disagree Kitten. People legitimately do not understand, and explaining it does help (for some.)
People legitimately do not WANT to understand.
Fixed it for ya.
sorry to disappoint you guys, but just do you research,
“Over half of surviving Ancient Greek kouros sculptures from ca. 615-485 BC wear dreadlocks” etc
Again, you know you’re struggling to make a point if you have to go back to BC..lol
Yes, let’s pretend that black people don’t get pulled over by the cops or forced to leave school or denied a job because they have dreadlocks. Let’s forget that shackled slaves grew dreadlocks during the three to six month ride from Africa to America. Let’s ignore all that because dreads were mainstream over two thousand years ago, don’tcha know.
Have you ever heard the song Buffalo Soldier?
Ugh. You know what?
Forget it. I’m done with this thread. It’s depressing.
“These people”?? I’m sorry, but if you can’t understand how some find a declaration that it’s racist to wear your hair in a certain way slightly ludicrous, you’re never going to get your point across or change minds.
Good point! +1 And, it didn’t start nor will it stop with those two. Justin Timberlake is one of the biggest offenders yet never gets called out for some reason. I’ll never forget when he said on BET that he had “a thing for the sistahs…” yet has rarely had a black girl in his video nor dated one. But I digress…
Waitwhat: Justin’s cultural appropriation so so hilariously egregious it was almost as if he was trying to be a caricature of what he thought black culture was like. Social media wasn’t around to call him out on it then, but I would hope if it had been he would have been grilled for it.
They are not called dreads anymore. They are called Locks.
Considering the rest of her outfit, I didn’t associate the blonde stuff with hair or a hairstyle until I read this post. I thought she was just wearing frayed rope in her hair for some reason. Really. Look at everything else she’s wearing and tell me that’s not possible! Oh, Miley.
@ Kitten Truest thing I’ve ever read.
Yes. The problems with cultural appropriation have been explained rationally, politely, thoroughly and beautifully over and over and it will never sink in to some people’s awareness. It’s not as if it’s a difference of opinion, or an argument about why they think appropriation is ok. It’s as though the words were never spoken. They’re just ignored and the same comments are made over and over. It’s not worth the time.
Right. And after being lectured, some people still reasonably think that those explanations are ludicrous. Not really a difficult concept to grasp.
No, it’s not difficult at all to grasp exactly who you are. Not in the least.
No one owns dreadlocks. They’re a part of human history and culture. For African Americans to think that they own them is insulting.
I have a sincere question regarding this topic- Really- no ulterior motives- just trying to ask questions and understand the issue. Is it cultural appropriation if an African American woman has straight blonde hair? Or if I lighten and straighten my crazy Middle Eastern hair? Is the definition truly borrowing from another culture that is not inherent in ones own?
AngiGram, no it’s not simply borrowing a style. It’s the idea that (in this case) a white woman is sporting a certain style and praised for it when other people are shunned and criticized for it. On a black person, dreads are considered “dirty” or some other negative connotation but when a white person does it it’s “cool and trendy”. It’s the blatant unfairness of the reactions and racism involved. Or when a white person takes a something else from black culture and profits off it and is hailed as amazing when other (usually more talented) people have been doing it for years with no adulation because they aren’t white.
Other examples are taking sacred or otherwise highly meaningful objects and turning them into fashion trends with little knowledge or regard for what they represent. See, the Native American feather headdress.
“a white woman is sporting a certain style and praised for it when other people are shunned and criticized for it. On a black person, dreads are considered “dirty” or some other negative connotation but when a white person does it it’s “cool and trendy”.
Where does all this praising of white people dreads happen? All I see is people making fun of them for doing that. There’s a ton of memes just about dirty white dreads.
Claire
In magazines, on TV shows, in the media.
Social media is where folks call out the double standard, such as how Cosmo and other magazines eagerly do articles on how to achieve dreadlocks and Afros…without using a single black model. It’s there.
@Wren, who are you hanging out with? I don’t know anyone in my social/career circle who thinks, nor would say that dreads are dirty or apply a negative connotation to one who wears them. At worst I’ve seen people ask a dread wearer how long it took them to grow their dreads and what’s the best way to maintain them. Maybe it’s time you broaden your circle of association? Not trying to be combative, just wonder if maybe you’re experiencing narrow mindedness because the people you associate with are narrow minded? On the other hand, if you’re making generalizations about society based on reactions to the actions of media driven fame mongers, well, surely you know that’s all carefully manipulated bullsh anyway.
@Angigram: Unlike a hairstyle, a hair color isn’t something a culture invented for themselves, it’s a biological trait. Most natural blondes are white, but sometimes people of color can naturally have blonde hair. Straight hair is also a biological trait and not a style invented by a culture. But with cultural appropriation there’s the issue of power- white people aren’t sent the message that they need to be more like a person of color just to get by, be safe, be accepted, and not be discriminated against. Elements of white culture aren’t seen as cool on a person of color but dangerous and ‘low-class’ on an actual white person.
Kiyoshigirl, When did I say I espoused the belief that dreads are dirty? I don’t and I think it’s stupid. (Actually they’re one of my favorite hairstyles but that’s neither here nor there.) But that doesn’t change public perception and general bias, not to mention flat out racism. Guilanna Rancic’s joke about Zendaya’s dreads are case in point. She didn’t write the joke but someone did and she went along with it. That’s more than one person perpetuating a belief and not seeing anything the matter. That’s just one recent example. Then there’s the fashion mags acting like they discovered something when they have spreads on afros or dreads or whatever using exclusively white models. More than one person green lighted that.
I’m thrilled you apparently live in an accepting liberal area where such views are not common. I grew up in such a place and was rather shocked to discover all kinds of dumb biases out there. Thinly (or not so thinly) veiled racism abounds, along with every kind of -ism you can think of.
Some elements have a deeper meaning inside a certain culture, so it’s irresponsible to wear it out just to look cool or whatever. Probably some hairstyles are included on this.
I was about to reply and then saw so many other women’s comments and you know what…it’s true, because I know for a fact your name was seen in the last appropriation discussion on this board, it was explained to you and you’re still acting puzzled.
How about this: When Miley Cyrus decided she needed to be ‘extra’ shocking and edgy for this event her go-to move was to slap some dreds on herself and act extra enthusiastic about weed. Compare that to Zendaya who simply wore a beautiful hairstyle with an elegant gown and was likened to somebody like Miley. Appropriation is perverting someone else’s culture for the sake of (in this case and most cases) making your boring self more interesting. Kylie Jenner wears cornrows when she wants to look tough, Mikey wears dreads when she wants to look wild. The worst part is other people taking those perversions and using them to label the folks the culture belongs to!
Dreadlocks and marijuana are not exclusive to African American culture, and are not owned by them.
These threads have become tiresome and redundant as hell, with the same commenters posing the same completely irrelevant questions in hopes of proving a point, but only succeeding at coming across as incredibly misguided and tone-deaf.
If I were a black person, I’d get tired of talking to a f*cking wall and as a white chick, I wish I could disassociate from these people. Sigh.
…obviously Nikki, which is the point.
Miley is acting out a stereotype associated with a group of people by those who don’t understand them.
Kitten
You officially sound as tired as many black people feel, lol. These threads equally charge me up and exhaust me. I cling to those who choose to be educated and learn.
No, Miley likes pink dreadlocks and pot. You’re assuming she’s acting out a stereotype. *You* are applying your narrative to her and what she does. She’s showing her boobs and wearing weird space outfits too, it’s all part of a package that’s … fairly unique and not part of any race or ethic group that I can divine, at all. You’re seeing what you want to see.
Really, look at her though. I see “space demon from hell”, nothing about her at all screams “black” or looks like any part of black culture that I’ve ever seen, outside of Nicki Minaj’s neon muppet phase.
If you delved into it a bit, you’d see that she’s heavily influenced by seapunk and vaporwave more than just about anything else. Her style for the last couple of years is directly from these microcultures. Seriously, the album cover for Bangerz is exactly vaporwave, to a T.
Why do these threads exhaust you? Because people are standing up against the notion of fraternalism in the face of cries for equality? It makes no sense. Walling each other off as humans while also demanding respect literally makes no sense. “You have to respect our culture, but you can’t touch it.” Who are you, are any of us as humans, to deny experiencing each others’ cultures and enjoying and loving them to the best of our ability? Black people enjoy white culture all the time, and no, it’s not just to “blend in” anymore, as is EVIDENCED by the fact that white people enjoy so much of black culture now, especially young people. Why are you mad at this?
The world is expanding and changing and mixing. It happens every day, all the time, cross-culturally, internationally. Seriously, this IS a thing. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it bad.
@ kitten – and me, the whole point of these boards is that it’s an opportunity to listen and learn but as you pointed out – some people just don’t want to hear and never will.
Right Nikki.
The dreadlocks, twerking, rapping and fake accent have nothing to do with black culture. Lolz that’s just me applying my perception of the world to Miley. Absolutely.
These threads usually exhaust me because I catch the same screen names asking the same questions over and over innocently as if no one has ever tried to answer and explain.
For instance appropriation has been explained several times on this page and you’re still citing examples and logic no one has argued. People have explained specifically when it becomes insulting but you refuse to even acknowledge what they’re saying. Arguing with a brick wall is exhausting. The world is indeed changing, which is why blacks finally have the platform to publicly comment on issues rather than being smothered by the media.
Or maybe some people HAVE listened and heard, yet still don’t believe the explanations justify calling someone a racist because they’re wearing a hairstyle that *arguably* can be attributed to a specific race or culture…
@The Eternal Side-Eye yeah you’re good because if it were me I would stop trying. Some of these commenters express ideas that operate out of a place of naivete so I wouldn’t even bother. Yes cultures blend and exchange information, it’s inevitable. However during that exchange there are “dominant” cultures who impose there will on “subordinate” cultures so it is rarely an equal exchange, which tries to force the subordinate culture to assimiliate, and integrate. Should those in the “subordinate” culture choose not to they are marginalized which comes with a whole host of issues that exiles those who choose to do so. One of the negative aspects of acculturation is that the dominant culture may pick and choose which elements of the “subordinate” culture they want to adopt which makes those elements cool or exotic, while discarding or ridiculing the rest. This is why comparing a Black woman who wants to dye her hair blond to what Miley Cyrus is doing is not the same thing. The Black woman dying her hair blond is trying to conform with elements of the dominant culture. Miley is a part of a dominant culture that want to appropriate elements from a subordinate culture at will without bothering to understand that culture for her benefit while not examing larger aspects of that culture. That is not ok.
Yes people within cultures should exchange information and integrate for the benefit of a more heterogenous society. However you don’t get to be a cultural tourist, picking and choosing orient yourself with a surface level knowledge of that culture and not expect to be criticized by those within the culture when you appropriate from them. Yes you can be influenced by another culture but when you appropriate from a culture without acknowledging your privileged position that allowed it to be acceptable for you to do so by the dominant culture which previously ridiculed the “dominated” culture for doing so, that is not ok. It’s like what happen with Black musicians trying to cross the color line playing music and then Elvis comes along. This type of music when played by Black musicians was race music and unacceptable and confined to the margins , but Elvis does it then it’s awesome, ok, and ushers in a new era of rock and roll. Culture exchange may be inevitable but it is also inequitable and I see nothing wrong with those calling out these inequities, rather than pretending it’s some sort of nirvana transcultural process for everyone involved.
Finally if one looks at when certain elements were popularized within mainstream popular culture, it’s pretty obvious that they came from Black culture influences. it’s a weak argument to say well these go all the back to B.C. when it’s obvious that these elements existed then. The context of when they became popularized in mainstream culture matters. Rastafarian culture had a tremendous influence on the decision for people to dreadlock their hair across all races. If one can’t acknowledge that then yes I would rather have a conversation with a brick wall, because it will be much more productive then trying to have a productive conversation with some commenters. However Miley has appropriated multiple aspects of Black culture, and those who think it’s coincidental choose to not see it. Yes these threads exhaust me too, and I wasn’t going to comment but I’m glad there are posters like you. Whether you keep posting or not know that you’re not alone on these boards.
This.
+1000 to you Nikki! Unfortunately no matter how much sense you talk these PC guys will belittle you and attempt to shout you down if you do not agree with them, and then they will accuse you of ignorance and racism if you don’t gasp in horror when they do. The moral high ground makes them real nasty! Take shelter!
“Yes people within cultures should exchange information and integrate for the benefit of a more heterogenous society. However you don’t get to be a cultural tourist, picking and choosing orient yourself with a surface level knowledge of that culture and not expect to be criticized by those within the culture when you appropriate from them.”
Well, either they can exchange information and enjoy each others’ culture, or they can’t. You can’t advocate for one and then claim cultural tourism in the next sentence. Who gets to define cultural tourism? How? What elements that you feel are of your culture are okay for others to enjoy, and what do they have to leave alone? How do you know people who like elements of different cultures DO NOT have more than a surface level of knowledge? You’re making assumptions about them, just as you assume they are making assumptions about you and your culture.
Of course Rastafarianism had a big influence on dread culture. But it’s certainly not the only influence, not even close and not even the oldest or the most historically significant, nor is it the predominant sentiment of dreadlocked individuals worldwide today. Seriously, come on.
She didnt decide about the dreads. She is just an actor.
@Nikki L why you come one and stop being so naive. Who gets to define cultural tourism? Um how about the people who have had their cultural appropriated get to determine if it’s cultural tourism. That seems simple enough for me since they’re the actual victims in this. Surely you don’t assume the dominant group gets to determine the parameters. You seem to be dismissing the feelings of that group in any point you make when many POC have made it abundantly clear when they see cultural appropriation, even when it’s explained why. The problem is when people from the dominant groups refuse to listen because they assume as the dominant culture they should be able to do whatever they want without being called out for it. Why? Because they occuply a place of privilege coming from the dominant group? Sure wait on that. Besides cultural appropriation has happened too often in the past for people to sit idly back and allow it to happen now.
To answer your questions, elements are ok to enjoy when you make an attempt to understand that culture which you have sought to incoporate elements from. There was a famous singer named Teena Marie (sang with Rick James) that was by and large accepted by Black culture because she sought to do just that. Please justify how Miley Cyrus has shown and demonstarted anything beyond a surface level knowledge of African American culture. Working with Black producers and rappers does not cut it. I must have missed her interviews talking about Jim Crow or even Roots but you can correct me if I’m wrong. Your points at every turn have failed to consider the perspective from people that have been appropriated from at every turn when that should be the baseline from where you started from. The fact that you refuse to consider their perspective speaks volumes. Anyway I know you would love it if this back and forth went on and on, but as many have mentioned, even when such things get explained to folks like you, you willfully turn a blind eye so I’m done. Keep writing essays though. I’ll doubt you’ll move the needle one way or the other. Like I said I’d rather go have that conversation with a brick wall.
Oh and@Lyla Lotus I guess I’m one of those PC people you’re referring to. I guess it’s a shame we can’t go back to much simpler times when PC people like me knew their place and shut up unless they wanted to end up swinging from a tree. Grow up. People are entitled to express their opinion, just like you express yours. Luckily we live in a society that promotes discourse. If anything I have seen the opposite of what you mentioned happening on this board where people have tried to dictate to POC what is and what is not cultural appropriation. Take your false persecuted complex somewhere else.
Eternal, Kitten …etc …THANKS A LOT! I came here thinking I would be reading really interesting stuff and the first 10/15 comments are some of the dumbest questions I’ve ever sen on this website! But I’m glad there are still people like you !
I’m tired ! Girl bye!
“Um how about the people who have had their cultural appropriated get to determine if it’s cultural tourism.”
That’s part of my point. Appropriation is relative. You’re assuming that everyone is stealing African American culture who wears dreadlocks, and I’m saying that’s ethnocentric, because so many other cultures have used dreadlocking throughout human history. You don’t know who or what someone is referencing these days by wearing dreads, and the African American community do not own a natural tendency of human hair. African Americans are a small subset of a small part of the world population. And yes, despite what people seem to believe in this discussion, smooth hair can dread naturally.
I’m saying no one gets to determine the paramaters because they cannot be defined. Every culture is unique and different, and to cry appropriation whenever anyone adopts something cross-culturally is to deny international and cross-cultural homogenization, which is an absolute inevitability at this point, regardless of race or country of origin. This isn’t a Black American phenomenon exclusively, people share cultural elements all over the world, and certainly within the borders of their own country. Others are just obsessed with seeing it as a negative, territorial thing. They don’t want to “share the water dish”. So okay, it’s ether everyone gets offended and no one can touch anyone else’s culture, or we agree that sharing IS okay, and IS a form of acceptance.
No one needs to pledge to another culture like a fraternity to enjoy aspects of another culture in a joyful manner.
“To answer your questions, elements are ok to enjoy when you make an attempt to understand that culture which you have sought to incoporate elements from.”
Okay, fine, I get that. But how do you know someone who is wearing something culturally significant doesn’t already do that, and how is THAT defined? You don’t unless you ASK. And yes, you do need to ask, you don’t just get to assume. Do they have to announce it? Wear a sign? Tweet it? “I’m wearing #dreads today to honor the #Sadhus.” Again, to reference my above point, you’re making assumptions. You CAN’T know if someone has made the effort or not to identify with the cultural element they enjoy unless you ASK them.
“Please justify how Miley Cyrus has shown and demonstarted anything beyond a surface level knowledge of African American culture. ”
You don’t know what she does or doesn’t know of African American or world culture. Why don’t you ask her? You’re assuming she is ignorant. She may not be. The point is, you don’t know, because you haven’t sat down and discussed it with her.
@ Nikki L. : There’s a difference between just enjoying certain aspects of another culture (eating foods from other cultures, speaking another language, watching anime, listening to a genre of music that originated with another culture…) and taking on certain elements of a marginalized culture as part of an image change to make yourself look tough, cool, edgy, rebellious, and to make a profit- something Miley has a history of doing. With her, pink/blonde dreadlocks is just the tip of the iceburg and on top of her cultural appropriation, she’s hasn’t acknowledged her privilege but has positioned herself as a kind of authority on how race should be talked about.
It wasn’t just braids with Kylie or Miley… Its an entire persona you take on when wearing these things esp when done so as costume. Amandla’s point wasn’t just because of the braids. It was the braids mixed with Kylie’s comment “I woke up like dis”… Or Miley dressed up in dreads, smoking weed with unflattering and mocking a culture like she’s on stage for a school play playing costume. That’s someone heritage not a joke. And when you dress up as another race acknowledge and be sincere in respecting that culture. No matter who/what your look is. The whole MTV VMA’s was like a terrible step back in society. Its like i was watching Chicken George sketches by white people who wrote the jokes, put on black face to yuck it up about weed and black music… and then hand over the awards (minus Nicki) to white people. “Aren’t black people funny, and high, and entertaining” especially when we do it. THATs why its offensive. And blaming or using Nicki as the scapegoat, like she attacked Miley is rude and offensive to everyone who watched. Because if Nicki wanted to attack Miley – should couldve, and she clearly said her peace and then moved on. But to pretend like Mileys words weren’t offensive in the first place is wrong – and be on stage or not, needed addressing. Be glad Nicki said her peace and moved on. As for the rest. I felt sorry for all of music sunday, especially pop music. THat show was everything wrong with current pop culture. Fake beef, squad goals, exhibitionism with no purpose and narcissism. Wasn’t even really a music show. Because if that’s what this generation considers its music of today (more like antics of today) than now as my mom would say…. your music has no purpose or meaning and you can’t really call that music.
I went to church on your comment, yes. Absolutely.
Weed is someone’s heritage? are you kidding me? you guys are so deluded. world is so much bigger than you town or state. The whole world smokes weed. And all people across the world have dreads. As someone said above, “cultural appropriation” is really only an African American phenomenon.
I agree with Gina.
As a foreigner who has seen those outfits and hairstyles in raves from Europe, I think you missed it with this one.
All pop stars’ do cultural appropriation, but in this case I think Miley’s image was just loud and nasty.
WTF are ALL THESE PEOPLE wearing? That cool, really?
I used to have a Barbie with a hollow head filled with hair that you could pull out so she would have a pony tail. I swear she was at the VMAs. I waved, but she didn’t recognize me.
Ha!
I played with my two older sisters’ Velvet and Crissy dolls which did the same thing! You pushed the belly button to pull the hair out to make it long and then I think turned a knob on their back to make the hair short.
I loved those dolls.
Wow what a blast from the past! I loved them too. I asked my mom to buy me Velvet when I had my tonsils out.
LMAO-Hollow Head Hillbilly Barbie!! Oh, GNAT! Thanks for that!
And I think the ultimate irony is that the “hollow headed barbie” is EXACTLY what Miley is railing against. All of this- cutting her hair, getting her breasts out, her interest and repeated glamorizing of drug culture… it’s all her form of rebellion agaist the “barbie” culture of hollywood. And yet…. And yet she’s not really made any great changes.
Miley is so tiresome, i swear i feel exhausted just by looking at her. I hope this is just a phase, maybe everyone needs to get stuff out of their system before they became zen like Master Yoda.
100%. She is exhausting. She too must be exhausted for trying so hard….please keep that tongue in your mouth little girl, not an attractive look.
Yes, she’s tiresome, not interesting.
It’s pretty much all drug-inspired, yes? Isn’t this basically Miley on Molly, and perpetuating the feelings that gives you? Hyper-sexed, psychedlic crap? I don’t think she’ll grow out of this phase until she puts down the drugs.
I think this is a real stretch. Visually she borrows heavily from 90s rave culture, not Afro-American culture. I’ve no idea what the mammy mention was about but in Ireland it’s what small kids call their mothers and have called them for a very long time.
In the U.S., Mammy is what slave owners called the black women who nursed and cared for their children. It’s not an appropriate term for anyone any longer.
If Irish people have been calling their mothers and grandmothers “mammy” independently of the cultural use in the United States, then it’s just as valid as its non-use here. The US doesn’t rule world cultural norms. There are lots of things in other cultures we’d consider offensive, but are normal there, and vice-versa. Doesn’t make it wrong if the context is totally different. It’s moral relativism.
I should have said “it is inappropriate for use in the U.S.” Or “I would advise you not to use it in the U.S.” I didn’t mean to imply that the Irish should no longer call their grandmother whatever they call her.
@Nicki: since when is Miley Cyrus Irish?
That has nothing to do with what I said, nor did I imply that. My point about cultures was entirely related to Gobo’s point about Irish culture, and the larger notion of cultural relativism and US-centered thinking.
It was an American awards show, with two American women at the center. We’re not talking about someone from Ireland coming to the US and referring to their Mammy to someone’s mixed up chagrin, we’re talking about an American woman, from the South no less, using the term Mammy. There is no relativism going on. And Gobo is perfectly welcome to state their opinion – after all, there are a lot of international Celebitches – but that doesn’t exactly change the context of what we’re discussing here.
Maybe you should Google what ‘mammy’ means in relation to American culture. Educate yourself.
@gobo: ha, you’re right about rave culture! However, what inspired rave culture? 🙂 I miss raves…
Afro?????? No wonder you don’t get it!
…why do people who don’t understabd always volunteer their opinions?
You even said you don’t know what Mammy means when it’s pretty obvious Miley wouldn’t be using the Irish context for the word.
My folks are English and we’ve always called them mam and da. I didn’t realise it was offensive
Mam is fine, even Mammy is fine within family, but Miley was on a stage on a show that’s broadcasted across the globe and centered in the US.
Most people with just a basic idea of history would have probably chosen a different term when Mammy is pretty loaded in American Culture.
I think the average person doesn’t have the platform she does and she keeps using her ignorance as a shield/weapon.
I don’t even know why I’m jumping in here right now, and @Gobo, It’s not a direct attack on you, so please don’t think this is. I’ve been trying to think of a way to explain the problem to people who sincerely don’t get it. I used to not really understand it as well. I was an idealist, someone who just thought, “Why can’t we all just get along and share our culture with one another?” Sounds great, right? But It just can’t happen; not yet. Not until people start changing their thinking, and I’m not real confident right now about that.
Sure some Europeans used the term “mammy” and sure other cultures smoke weed or wear dreadlocks. BUT… because some ignoramuses with unkind intent created stereotypes for many cultures, including African American, those labels have spread like wildfire and stuck. Firmly. And the victimized cultures have taken possession of those stereotypes. Why not? It’s absolutely their prerogative to do so. Terms, hair styles, music and more are all examples of those stereotypes now taken in by those cultures, and a few well meaning idealists will just never be able to change that, neither will the few dissenters on either side of the issue. It’s not fair to everyone involved, but it is what it is. Accepting that that’s the way it is, is the ONLY way to start an intelligent conversation to bring about change.
Think of it in terms of diet and exercise. Are we meant to starve and exhaust ourselves in order to live a happy, healthy life? Is it a given that every child born is destined to be fit and healthy? Nope, at least I don’t think so. But because of circumstances that may be out of their control, such as environmental or biological factors, or processed foods, or even emotional issues; Some people now have no choice but to take drastic measures in order to improve their health. It’s not pleasant, some individuals don’t really understand what others are going through, and in some cases it may not be fair, but it is what it is and if a person wants to get healthy, they will have no choice but to make some difficult changes in order to reach a healthy state.
Putting an end to cultural appropriation may seem ridiculous to some people, but it is a very necessary step in overcoming racial and cultural divisions.
“‘Why can’t we all just get along and share our culture with one another?’ Sounds great, right? But It just can’t happen; not yet. Not until people start changing their thinking, and I’m not real confident right now about that.”
Why can’t it happen now, because you’re personally not comfortable with it? Who gets to define that; how, why and when? Perhaps it IS happening now, and now is the time, and you’re just resistant to it. Why do you want your personal brand of acceptance but still want to retain an exclusionary approach to your culture? Mainstream adoption of elements of black and other world cultures IS acceptance and people changing their thinking, especially when it comes from young people.
Cross-culturalization happens globally and certainly within the bounds of ones own country. There is exchange of items across racial boundaries within the United States all the time.
This homogenization is an inevitability given the explosion of communication and international travel. To take personal offense to it is an exercise in futility at this point. To argue that certain historical and current cross-cultural hairstyles are exclusively African American, and that they exist today *primarily* because of Rastafarainism is asinine and incorrect. There are cultures across the world which are ignorant of popular US customs and African American issues who have dreads. It’s pretty culturally-centric to believe otherwise.
You got from my statement that I take personal offense to the mixing of cultures?
I don’t, not at all. But I absolutely respect the cultures victimized by stereotypes and the process it takes to heal that damage, even though it may be beyond the comprehension of folks like yourself. Appropriation is not the same as mixing. You and the like are disregarding those who have been damaged and trying to force something that takes time and methodology.
“You got from my statement that I take personal offense to the mixing of cultures?”
I need to be better about defining my “you’s”, usually I mean the general “you”. My bad.
@Nikki: Understood. And I don’t mean to type in such a maligning matter, that doesn’t helped anything at all, so I’m sorry I allowed my tone to become that.
I think my overall point is that fixing the damage done is going to be a ridiculously tedious process. It would be great if people could just speak, behave and wear what they wanted without having to worry about being offensive; but unfortunately the path blazed before us does not allow such a simple way of thinking. So much hurt has occurred and there doesn’t seem to be enough acknowledgement of that fact to appease the victims of that pain. So we need to be sensitive to those feelings, otherwise we end up invalidating individuals who are still being affected.
And that would be fine if Miley was Irish and honestly didnt know better. But she’s not. She’s American and doesnt have an excuse.
I said something similar before seeing your comment. The latex dress, the heavy make-up; it really just looks like a rave outfit.
I had a classmate that is approx Miley’s age who has an uncanny resemblance to Miley. Doppelganger. But fortunately the similarities stop there. Oh and the drugs too.
I wish people would just forget about the VMAs. Miley does this for attention, and criticizing her gives her the attention she craves. Maybe if people just ignore her, she will stop trying to create controversy.
I’m feeling the same way about taking the attention away from Miley. So instead, let’s talk about the stories out there that say Kanye will be the next host for the VMA’s. Can you imagine how LONG that show will be as he rants after every award!
I’m sort of with you on that at this point. Part of the appeal of the VMAs was their attempt to reign them in depsite artists’ shenanigans. Now that they’re like “ANYTHING GOES OMG” it’s just desperate.
I have outrage fatigue. I’m sitting this one out.
Miley Cyrus’s VMA presence was so bad, she made Kim Kardashian look like the epitome of class, even during Kim’s pee-gate phase. That is all I wish to say :p
Not trying to be inflammatory, just a genuine question: why is Miley wearing dreds cultural appropriation and therefore offensive, whereas Nicki having Chinese words tattooed on her arm is ok?
Really? Stay reaching!!!
It’s not reaching, it’s a valid question. Black culture is not some untouchable fraternity. People are allowed to enjoy it and incoroprate it into their daily lives. So people want respect of black culture, but no one except black people are allowed to enjoy aspects of it without permission? No.
Nikki no…it’s a tattoo, as in words from that culture printed on Nicki’s arm. It doesn’t make her more Asian and also…you do know Nicki is Asian right? Like you couldn’t look at her and tell that from her bone structure and eye shape?
But still…unless the specific tattoo has deep cultural meaning (thinking of the Maori) then no it’s not appropriation to merely have words printed on your body. If she was using that as an excuse to always be discussing how she knows the plight of Asian women and etc. then the discussion would make sense.
Stay…reaching.
What you said addressed nothing of my statement, you addressed Saw’s. In any case, you also missed the point in defending Nicki’s tattoos that dreadlocks are not exclusive to the African American community, not by a long shot, and it’s certainly not “appropriation” of any kind for other races to wear them. They have a long and storied history in *human* lives. Miley is no more guilty of appropriation than Nicki is in this case.
To quote you, “stay reaching”.
Nicki has been called out for the tattoo and her former use of sexualized geisha imagery. It was a while ago, but people did express criticism. I don’t think it was well covered in the press though.
I’m not sure how much more simply I could explain it to you Nikki.
You haven’t addressed my points directly at all, so no, I’m not sure how much more simply you could explain it either. I find that in this argument, people resort to the “you’re too stupid to understand what I’m saying” line when they realized they’ve been out-argued. I’m not too stupid to understand what you’re saying. I do know *exactly* what you’re saying. I just don’t agree with it.
You cannot disprove my point that dreadlocks are NOT African American cultural appropriation because it’s a fact. Dreadlocks are part of many cultures all over the world, and is a natural tendency of human hair, yes even straight hair. I’ve linked the Wiki article several times now, I’m sure you can find it and many other examples of what’s in it on your own. You’re just wrong in this case, and you can’t admit it.
Because wearing a tattoo in Chinese has never been something used as a hurtful stereotype (redundant, I know) against a culture.
That whole VMA thing made my soul burn and curl up at the edges. Miley must be measured in dog years. Watching her for ten minutes felt like seven years. I just wanted to see The Weeknd, and then I was out of there. So much tryhard, so much ego, so little talent.
Isn’t mammy actually Mammie ,her grandmother? She calls her that and has a tattoo of her. It’s like 2 sec to google that.
@gobo — I think the problem with Miley on race is that she takes what she wants from black culture–twerking (around for decades in black culture), corn rows, etc.)–yet doesn’t *see* the racism around her–nominations and awards going to white artists, some of whom are appropriating black culture, in this case. Rather a vicious circle.
I don’t follow her much so I can’t give you tons of examples. Don’t get my black rapper boyfriend started on her and Iggy (and others): less talented white girls who appropriate left and right, then blow up faster and bigger than their more talented, in-the-business-longer black girl peers, like Nicki.
I highly recommend the book Dear White People, derived from the movie, and written by the film’s creator. He has a whole chapter on how when white people do black things (Elvis and rock n roll, for example), they’re cool. When black people do black things…yeah, well. I’m white and I’m learning, fwiw.
White people do black things? What does that mean? Do black people do white things?
Humans take elements from each others’ cultures all over the world, every day, let alone from within one’s borders. Worldwide cultural homogenization is a real phenomenon with the advances in communication and travel. To fight it and continue to treat it as an insult is an exercise in futility. Enjoying someone else’s culture is not mocking, as long as it’s not making fun, like blackface.
White people do black things, Black people do white things. Asian people do black things. White people do Asian things. Asian people do white things.
I was being facetious. White people doing black things ,black people doing white things is a ridiculous notion. I wasn’t serious.
I think you mean when white people steal black culture (not calling you out just rephrasing it) because rock and roll was invented by blacks, appropriated by whites and whites had the most success.
One of my friends in a fit of rage demanded to know why whites are (still) so desperately appropriating of other cultures and snapped “Is it they don’t have any culture of their own of theirs is so boring?”
Sometimes I wonder. History books were made to laud white achievement and yet there seems to be little interest in integrating those ‘white’ achievements when it’s easier and more fun to take a dashiki and slap some jersey numbers on it and sell it to the masses. Like Gwyneth Paltrow’s sparkly Tupac purses…
yes, whites are boring and useless, you are right. what are you talking about besides music style that was “invented by blacks”? 🙂
White people aren’t boring and useless, ignorant people are and continue to be. Whether they’re whining about those Mexicans that ‘ took er jobs!’, explaining away all instances of police brutality against minorities, or shrugging off any instance of a problem where they’re not the victims.
History textbooks in this country paint white people as a perfectly self-sufficient race of people who discovered America and taught the slave how to read. You’d think those ignorant souls would trumpet their own acckmplishments rather than desperately stealing from all others.
Um… White is not an ethnic group and does not describe a particular culture. It’s a sociological concept, meant to distinguish from certain other groups. In the U.S. it means of European ancestry unless your European ancestors had African or Asian ancestors… Skin color is not actually a clearly defining characteristic, since “whites” have varying degrees of melanin production and come in many shades of brown as well as pale although most other people in the world are darker so the name is understandable. There is overlap in other physical characteristics often associated with non-white groups as well. That leads to passionate debates sometimes about who is white and who is not…. The distinction is all artificial and rooted in American history, since there were clear legal disadvantages to being assigned to the non-white group as well as de facto disadvantages to this day even though laws have changed. But the only thing “whites” really have in common is that they aren’t non-white.
You guys are very deluded. I personally come from european country that never had slaves or african colonies (thus never took advantage of other race or opressed someon) but we were enslaved ourselves (not so long ago) for centuries (yes, sadly, with trade, rape, murders, forced marriage, etc.) and we had couple of famines, created by oppressors (all the crops and and animal stock was simply taken away by oppressors). I can clearly understand the pain and how this injustice can affect future generations and how its important to know and remember history. But than i read this greedy, delusional comments and it makes me sad. Really? all whites say that “mexicans took their jobs”? arguments about hairstyle and how it’s yours? so shallow
Many music genres have been ‘invented’ by all races, and nobody calls it appropriation.
Racism is a huge problem in the USA, there are a lot of ways people are discriminated, yet it doesn’t sound like music could be the best way to understand or explain it.
Ditto for the white is not an ethnic group comments. What does the phrase “white people” even mean? Not every white person has remotely the same experiences or had them historically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks
just sayin
Out of curiosity do you plan on changing your mind on appropriation or is your opinion firm and you merely are being coy about it?
I’ve never seen more obvious examples of white people completely justifying & ignoring cultural appropriation, than in this thread. As a white person, I am mortified.
I think I’d be utterly speechless if QQ and I weren’t joking about this very thing earlier today and here it is, all laid out like a pretty Thanksgiving feast for the entire world to see.
So when a white girl wears dreads its cultural appropriation, but when black girls get bone straight long blonde weaves it’s not? What’s the difference? People can wear their hair however they want. I’ve never seen how people look at Miley and want to scream about cultural appropriation and accuse her of acting black. Miley acts like a wild club kid. And as far as the mammy, she was speaking of her actual grandmother. So I don’t see a problem. I think it must be so exhausting always looking for something to be upset about. I’m black and nothing Miley did offended me. The only moments I thought were inappropriate were the police skit and Nicki’s rant
I was wondering this exact thing. Why is celebration of any culture considered “appropriation”? Why is it that cultural groups want acceptance, which they deserve, but once people start delving in and enjoying any aspect of the culture in their own personal lives or art, it’s appropriation? You can’t have it both ways; black culture is not some untouchable thing only allowed to be experienced by other black people, while still crying for respect and acceptance. And like you said, why is the reverse accaptable?
I can cultural appropriation in some terms. If i wore a native american headress because i thought it made me look hot, i can see why that’s offensive.
But i always assumed black men and women wore dreads or cornrows because they thought it looked cool and made them look good and not for any deeper reason, same reason i have my haircut. I don’t understand why it’s considered offensive if a white person also thinks dreads and cornrows look cool and wants that style too.
I do understand that’s it’s offensive if someone takes and discards this style in an offensive way….like if i only wore cornrows when going to a rap concert or when i wanted to look “ghetto”. I get that.
Overall, it seems like much ado about nothing. Sometimes i want there to be a plague so we can have real problems again.
I love those, I’m black and it doesn’t offend me people, lol!
And I love those “I’m black and everything offends me so I will be offended for all blacks” people. You can’t be offended by white girls with dreads and fine with black girls with long, straight, blonde weaves.
@ Leela The New Black
1. Black people have straight hair. There are black people born with straight hair. Lord the things people keep picking as ‘white’.
2. Women wear weaves (in earlier days) to blend into a Euro centric culture that not only mocked women for having natural hair but beat them up, assaulted them, raped them, hanged them and even as recently as a few months ago fired them from their jobs.
3. Yeah, cause those wild club kids invented dread locking. Well she’s gone from twerking to dreadlocks, maybe soon she’ll play with actually appreciating the struggle of minorities and not blather about statistics.
There are white people born with seriously kinky, curly, tight hair too, let alone people all over the world. I know more than one. Lord, the things people keep picking as ‘black’.
That may have been the reason in earlier days, but now black women wear straight white weaves because they like them, not because they’re trying to be white women. And that’s the *point*. That works *both ways*. People do things because they like certain aspects of certain cultures, and it’s not rude and wrong to do so, unless it’s in a mocking “blackface” type fashion. Homogenization happens literally all over the world, between counties even, let alone within a country’s own borders. Countries and societies share culture and trends all the time. Cultural homogenization is a natural part of the human process, especially with the explosion in worldwide communication and travel. This is a recognized academic sociologcal phenomenon.
For people to treat clothing and hairstyles like some sort of fraternal, impenetrable boundary is asinine and ignorant. No, your culture is not untouchable, no matter who you are or where you come from.
Wild club kids did not invent dreadlocking, but neither did African Americans. They’re central to many cultures, including Hindu and Greeks, and have a long, complex, storied history throughout humanity. For African Americans to claim them is offensive. Please do your research.
1. I believe in one of my replies to you I already mentioned dread locking happens naturally to a certain hair type. Even then it takes a very specific curl pattern so if you think your average curly haired white woman’s hair will dred on its own…
2. Black women who wear weaves aren’t trying to be white. They’re trying to survive in a culture that rewards proximity to Eurocentricity. Of course many black women wear them for their own enjoyment, comfort, and protection of their natural hair. That doesn’t remove their original and continued purpose.
3. I appreciate your enthusiasm to defend appropriation but I just can’t quite hop on the train. We can have discussions on the mingling of cultures all day but that’s not what appropriation is about. I used perversion for a reason and it applies well, appropriation is for people who spit on aspects of a people and culture until it’s on a white face or body. They use it and then exclude the original owners from recognition or respect. I’ve done my research and the simple truth is it doesn’t reflect the POV that wishes to absolve examples or ignore facts.
No, you said that black hair just has to be left alone, and that “silky” hair doesn’t dread naturally. It does, and you’re wrong. You can Google it. *Human* hair dreads after long periods of no brushing and less washing.
That’s what I said, that black women who wear weaves aren’t trying to be white. That’s literally what I said, lol. You negated yourself by saying they’re weraing them to blend in, and then literally in the next sentence saying that many black women wear them because they like them, and not to blend in. Those are two opposing statements.
I agree, I think most black women wear smooth weaves because they like them, and would balk at being told it’s to blend in or be white. I don’t think Eurocentric blending is the primary reason any longer, and that’s what I said before. Restating your argument isn’t a rebuttal.
In any case, that was my point. That’s why some white people wear or like elements of black culture too, because it’s for their own enjoyment. That’s why some Asian people enjoy black culture and adopt hip-hop elements into their style. That’s why others do as well, all over the world.
I think it’s sad that you see enjoyment as “spitting” on elements that you feel are exclusive to your culture. Enjoyment is not automatically negative if the person doesn’t have black skin. That’s so offensive. It’s fraternal, exclusionary, and negative.
Just because *you* feel something is being “appropriated” doesn’t mean it is.
did you even watch or at least read up on when miley used mammy in her hosting gig? she was referring to snoop dog not her real grandmother. what does her grandmother have anything to do with the vmas? her spiel consisted of doing drugs, lesbian sex with jared leto . . . her grandmother did not figure into that. thankfully. since i think even miley stops somewhere, like with beloved dead relatives
If that bit was so racist then why did Snoop play along? Is he an idiot?
If people don’t get what appropriation is by now then just don’t bother. We’ve had this conversation several times on this site alone. You just don’t WANT to get it.
I will say this: if teens like Rowan and Amandla can understand then a grown a$$ adult should be able to wrap their minds around it
this
Yes there have been some excellent comments on this site that explain it very welll. See the comment thread of a few weeks ago on Kylie Jenner choice of hair style. Openened up my eyes.
Exactly. It’s been hashed in every which way with all pertinent information offered from scholarly articles to real world examples. I will say this, the ignorance of some can’t tarnish the brilliance of others.
Reading Rowan’s recent comments on intersectionality gave me LIFE, I love a well educated child and truly believe the mark of intelligence is who looks for the truth when they are young. Not who waits to have it served to them on a silver platter when they’re older.
I did the research since I never heard of these teens… Yeah, well, she is thirteen… and the topic is more complex than she may be able to grasp. Because it is not that simple. Maybe this article can give some insight: http://www.feministcurrent.com/2015/07/24/ftf-millennials-co-opting-intersectionality-the-new-way-to-say-my-feminism-is-better-than-yours/
I am apparently also one was those who doesn’t see the cultural appropriation in this case. If we engange in this nonsense, nobody will takes us seriously. But that is my opinion, and just like everybody, I am allowed to have this opinion. And opinions are never right nor wrong.
Thank you!
I’m not sure where black culture claimed ownership of dreadlocks, but it’s a natural tendency for all human hair types. Wearing dreads isn’t a black thing, it’s a human thing, and it’s insulting that it’s considered “appropriation”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks
Honey you are on a roll today! Please gives us more things black people can or cannot do,say, own, etc, since you are the expert.
That’s not a valid, salient argument against my point. Dreadlocks are part of multiple cultures in multiple ways. Sorry?
Right…which is why silky textured hair naturally locks on its own.
Oh wait…it doesn’t.
Extremely curly hair can lock but that would be a white person with an extremely tight curl pattern, white hair has to be manipulated to lock. Black hair just has to be left alone.
Any hair just has to be left alone for long enough to dread. White hair will mat and dread if you grow it long and stop brushing it.
And that still doesn’t address my point, which is that dreadlocks have a long history throughout humanity, and aren’t exclusive to African American culture, not by a longshot. To claim as much is really ignorant.
Black hair has to be locked too. Dreadlocks don’t magically appear when black hair is left alone.
I have straight thin hair of a white person. And I had to cut out something very similar to dreadlocks after two week camping because i forgot my 5 hair conditioners. So yeah, tell me more about how it doesnt lock on its own
@ FingerBinger
My hair locked on its own during the summer without any intentional locking from me. It happens to a lot of folks with tightly curled natural hair (plus I was distracted and a little stingy with the moisturizing so my hair decided to take care of itself).
@Nikki L. Good lord, it’s like these people are all talking to a brick wall! Jeez. 😳
@Nikki
The fact that someone who wasn’t black wore dreadlocks in ancient times or other cultures has nothing to do with the fact that in THIS country in THIS time, dreadlocks are associated with the black culture. I think you know that. You’re just pretending to be ignorant because that fact doesn’t fit in with your obvious agenda, which is to tell black people to shut up and stop telling you what you can and can’t do. If you think that isn’t clear as day, you fooling yourself.
I think before you assume things, you should probably ask people what their “agenda” is, both in arguments and desire to wear particular hairstyles. When I see a white person with dreadlocks, I don’t see a person trying to co-opt black culture at all, because I’ve been seeing people of ALL races with dreads, all over the world, since I was born. But, I suppose you see what you want to see.
You’re missing the point entirely. And contradicting yourself all over the place. We aren’t talking about the world over. We are talking about the U.S. And the black culture here. But you know that, don’t you? You just choose to ignore it because you don’t want to hear the other side. It’s more important to you to be “right” than it is to be sensitive to people’s feelings. You’re correcting an entire group of people who are telling you this offends them and telling them it shouldn’t because YOU have witnessed other races wearing dreadlocks. It’s the lamest, most transparent argument in the world. Who cares what YOU see when you look at dreadlocks? Who cares if it doesn’t offend YOU? Who the hell are you to tell black people not to be offended by cultural appropriation because YOU can pull up a bloody Wikipedia link that shows some Indian guy with dreadlocks. Why don’t you just LISTEN to the people who are telling you how they FEEL about it? Because you don’t want to hear anything inconvenient to your ludicrous post-racism drivel.
No, I’m not missing anything, nor am I contradicting myself.
I’m arguing that the worldwide history of dreadlocks is so varied and old, that assuming ANYONE is wearing them these days to appropriate Black culture specifically is treading on shaky ground. You just *want* to see dreads as being African *American* specific, and they’re not, not even in a modern sense. I’m not arguing that African Americans haven’t influenced anything, I’m arguing that they don’t own dreadlocks or dread culture, so much so that your view is antiquated. There are lots of other cultures who wear locks, and you might want to ask someone before you just assume.
I’m not correcting an entire group of people. You don’t know who specifically is black here and who is not aside from just a couple of people. You’re making assumptions.
You’re also assuming that the few black people who are here are speaking for “an entire group of people”. A couple of black people do not speak for “them all”, that’s racist. There are even people here who have declared themselves as black who have said they don’t have a problem with Miley’s dreads.
It’s not a lame or transparent argument at all, I’m making very salient, challenging points.
Just because you have a “feeling” about something doesn’t mean it’s untouchable. Your feeling might be based on incorrect facts or assumptions. Feelings are not immutable, non-discussable, challengeless entities. We need to discuss our feelings, why they exist, and what information they are based on. Sometimes feelings and offense can be based on misunderstanding or refusal to see outside one’s own sphere. That’s what I’m arguing.
Why does my offense or lack thereof not matter? Why aren’t you listening to others when they try to tell you how they feel about it? Why does the dialogue have to be one sided?
I’m not denying insituitionalized racism, church shootings, racial profiling, or anything else. But I’m saying that just because one group of people, one small group of people in one country in the world claim something like a natural tendency of human hair as “theirs” doesn’t make it true. Lots of white homeless people have dreads because of the hair’s tendency to mat and dread when unwashed and unbrushed. Are they culturally appropriating? No, this is what human hair DOES, biologically, no one owns it! Being offended can be based on innacuracy; feelings aren’t sacrosanct. They CAN be challenged.
@Goodnamesalltaken. This, this so much. That is what I was thinking but couldn’t find the words.
@GNAT: Standing Ovations from me to you.
I’ve been reading this thread all day and just can’t with some of these comments here today.
Everything you said here in your last comment. Bravo!
Fine, Nikki,
You think you are challenging us with new and innovative, salient (your favorite word) and “challenging” points. Honey, you’re singing the same old song white people have been singing since the beginning of time. WE know best. Only OUR feelings matter. WE can do anything we please. WE have the power. NOBODY tells US what to do. YOU “others” are less. Less intelligent. Less meaningful. Less important. Less.
So live in your bubble. I give up on you. You have your little Wikepedia links and your facts about hair and your overuse of the word assumption and your false comparisons between a pop star and homeless people and your tiny little closed mind. What you fail to see is the big picture, or how attitudes like yours have damaged people for centuries, or how we will never reach any understanding as long as people like you refuse to care about how other people feel.
Wow, such inferiority complex in your words. because you are clearly attacking someone personally.
Nope Gina. Your comment is deflecting what GNAT is saying.
GNAT, I love you. That is all. You’ve said everything I’ve been wanting to say since I started wading through this egregious thread. I’m just way too angry to say it as well as you have. Love love love.
“Wikipedia is the greatest thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you’re getting the best information.” – Michael Scott
Meh
Just meh
Why are dreads cultural appropiation? Theyve been around since forever.
I changed my opinion on miley, i used to think she was thirsty but ok. I have lately come to the conclusion that she is a total idiot. She needs to go away and go to college or something. She seriously showing her lack of formal education. Its embarrassing. Nothing worse than a highly opinionated person who lacks intelligence.
She’s another one that’s Privelaged with a capital P. It shows less in what she wears (which is ridiculous to the point it hurts my eyes) and more in how she speaks and how she thinks. I take no pleasure in her ignorance but I must admit I got a huge amount of pleasure in seeing that bluster knocked out of her and having her fake dreads snatched by Nicki. The good thing is she’s swimming in dough, so she’ll never have to open her mind and actually think of the world outside her sheltered bubble.
Hopefully she’ll also stay away from the rest of us.
By the way – dreadlocks is the natural state of any unkept hair “Additionally, leaving long hair to its own devices by not brushing or cutting the hair will encourage it to tangle together as it grows, leading to twisted, matted ropes of hair known as dreadlocks.”
and this hairstyle was worn by ancient greeks in 600 bc and there’s a major proof (sculptures, manuscripts)
Right…ancient Greeks, recent Africans. Absolutely. What were the cave men doing with their hair?
What are modern Indian Sadhus doing with their hair? Seriously, stop. You’re claiming something that *isn’t* African American exclusively, while being ignorant yourself of smooth hair and what it does and does not do in terms of dreading.
African American and African are two different things Nikki.
You’re reaching like Katt Williams trying to get something off the top shelf for all to find ways that Miley’s specific mimicry of black culture isn’t a mimicry of blacks but is rather associated with Ancient Macedonians of 300 B.C. Absolutely.
Except white people have never been stereotyped based on the locks.
“white people have never been stereotyped based on the locks” – sure about that? yes, zero white people throughout the history were stereotyped. Dress code doesn’t exist like anywhere. White people can have any hairstyles (especially when working in a banking system) and any clothes anywhere. No slut shaming for white women, no “why do you look like a dirty punk/hippie” for men. right
My point sailed right over your head, didn’t it?
Well, I’m pretty calm, but thank you for asking 🙂 it’s the Internet, you know. you can make your point with a straight face
I’m not reaching, you just can’t understand that dreadlocks aren’t only African American. Don’t try and split it now as if you meant African exclusively, I’ve been using the term African American in reference to centrism around dreadlocks and their origin, not African, on purpose. That Wiki article says as much. You’ve been arguing against me with the term African American.
I cited a modern example, not the Macedonians, but okay. Sadhus aren’t African and are modern wearers of dreads. So are lots of others in other cultures. But okay.
My comment literally says “Modern Africans” Nikki, I’m not sure why you’re so desperate to argue the point that you’re going to pretend the comment right above yours doesn’t exist. You replied commenting about African Americans.
Your comment / = my comment.
I clicked in the wrong place. I meant to put it as a reply to the comment directly above mine.
I love Chance so much. Even in those overalls.
There really isn’t anything more I wish to discuss about Miley. She doesn’t get it. She doesn’t want to get it.
My real question is why she thought those dreads looked good on her to begin with. Because Zendaya did it way better.
ap·pro·pri·a·tion
əˌprōprēˈāSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the action of taking something for one’s own use, typically without the owner’s permission.
I don’t believe in cultural appropriation because one cannot ask permission to take a cultural practice as one’s own. That’s dumb, sorry. There used to be time when celebrating other cultures was seen as positive and I’m not sure when it changed. It hasn’t changed everywhere, only in the minds of some. Many cities have culture festivals where food, dress, etc of a culture is on display and celebrated and sampled by festival attendees. Are these people committing some racist act? NO. We are a world of various cultures and these cultures melt into one another and influence one another and cultural practices have evolved over time as different cultures adopt each other’s ways. Do a little research and you can find many examples of this. it’s basic sociology.
Honestly I think so much focus on something so benign as a white person having locs or a black person getting straight weave really belittles the actual plight of racism, which is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior. Doing so is just as bad as when a celebrity compares having their photo taken to being raped.
This. So much this. Thank you.
Have you shared this theory of yours with your friends who are people of color?
Wow. There are people of colour who experience racism through appropriation every single day. On the Kylie thread, there were many examples of that. To dismiss these people’s experiences, calling them dumb, because you have read a wikipedia page. Is very offensive.
as a european, i dont get it either.
style your hair in a green triangle. who cares? wear a pink burqua, whatever! all that pearl clutching about so called cultural appropriation, lets just have fun with and express ourselves with style. how about we relieve the symbols of their old meaning and give them new transgressive ones? wouldnt that be liberating?
all the regular commenters are so in agreement about the offensiveness but you guys are mostly white women from the united states right? it would mean more coming from someone whose culture, according to you, is being appropriated. else it feels rather patronizing. and we dont want that do we?
As another European, please speak for yourself.
Also if you have read former threads about this, you would know that a lot of people of colour who comment here. And they absolutely have the right to talk about cultural appropriation.
Well let’s see…
In this country in this year we’ve had:
Mexicans scapegoated as rapists and drains on society. Police brutality on black individuals given spotlight. Asian Americans suing because of discrimination at schools like Harvard and the list goes on.
This is why the mentality of “Let’s all just wear pink burqas!” doesn’t work. Because when whites wear those burqas it’s fun or a political statement. When actual Indians wear their clothes of their culture they’re pulled to the side, investigated, harassed, mocked and gawked at.
This whole post-racial doesn’t work because the structures of racism and oppression that control and effect people’s lives hasn’t vanished. It’s the same way saying “We don’t need feminism in America anymore, men and women in the US are basically equal. It’s those third world countries that need feminism.” because as sure as you can blink when you stop fighting or believe the fight has been won the truth will rear its head as harsh and ugly as a picture of Obama photoshopped with watermelons and slave masters.
i mentioned the european part because i cant think of anything from my culture i would be offended about if other people use it. and to indicate a certain distance to the race-struggle in the US.
but my question was not a rhetoric one, so i ask again: wouldn’t it be liberating to relieve the symbols of their old meaning and ascribe new diverse ones? and isn´t insisting on “only so-and-so can wear them” stopping that?
edit: thanks side-eye for a thoughtful response. i disagree with the equation with feminism though. my point is about dreadlocks, burquas etc. as signs for something. the meaning of a sign can change. and in this case it might be good if it does.
But that is probably because you are from a white culture. The things from your culture aren’t associated with racism, opression, etc. Whereas dreadlocks are, especially in the US.
And it would be wonderful if we could disregard those symbols. But since racism is still very alive today, this is not the time.
or it’s exactly the time.
@jessie
Dreadlocks are not associated with racism in the US.
J. They are.
Anna. I wish, truly.
I literally got dreadlocks (which i had to CUT OUT of my head) after two weeks of camping without proper hair conditioner. Is it cultural appropriation?
Are you just trolling or are you really this ignorant about black culture?
I respect all cultures. But i just dont consider dreadlocks to be exclusively the part of African-American culture (and they are not and this statement would be offensive, say, to indians). And what I’m trolling is making much noise over nothing.
Did you get fake dreadlocks deliberately after several other instances of appropriating other elements of black culture as part of your edgy ‘image’? Did you deliberately seek out something that ‘feels black’ (something that someone posted Miley actually saying in an interview) as part of the image you profit from?
That’s the difference between your naturally occurring dreadlocks and what Miley is being criticized for.
I’m simply embarrassed for these young pop stars who should be going through all of these typical young-people phases in the relative obscurity of a college campus instead of in the media. I mean, how many white girls did we know in college in the late 80s/early 90s who got dreds, stopped shaving their body hair and declared themselves bisexual/gender fluid/whatever the latest term was for it back then? Nobody freaked out about it because we all knew it was a phase and the kid would be onto the next thing in a month.
Miley and all the rest of these kids would be nothing remarkable on a college campus – they’d blend in with everyone else, really.
Frankly, they’re all exhausting.
I’m glad I went through my teenage-ness before the internet and cel phones.
Yup. I can’t stand Miley Cyrus and I really do think she is a naive, ignorant dolt but I do feel for her and the rest of them, the pressure of having your awkward phases of discovery on global display. Lord knows I have my fair share of cringey moments, even to this day.
I think college is stretching it though. I feel like myself and most of the people I know went through these phases in high school, or a couple years following high school, and she was denied these crucial years of development. Maybe I’m just oblivious to my own 20-something ridiculousness.
I can’t say I feel all that sorry for them though; they are the ones perpetuating their own fame, especially in this day and age. It would be as simple as shutting down all your social media/promotional tools and fading into obscurity for a few years.
Let’s google dreadlocks:
“Additionally, leaving long hair to its own devices by not brushing or cutting the hair will encourage it to tangle together as it grows, leading to twisted, matted ropes of hair known as dreadlocks” oh, so in the end it’s not owned by african-american community?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks
Not by a long shot.
exactly. it’s a natural state of any unkept hair
According to your wiki link, “The first known examples of dreadlocks date back to North Africa and the Horn of Africa.”
Hmmmm…sound like dreads were of African origin?
Was that the point you were trying to disprove? Or were you just trying to show us that pre-Colombian Aztecs wore their hair in dreads?
Question: were Greek or Aztec children forbidden to partake in the everyday opportunities offered to other children because their hair might have been dreadlocked?
I’m asking because I’m thinking of Tiana Parker, the beautiful 7 year old girl who was told her dreadlocks were not a “presentable style” at her elementary school and eventually forced to leave.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/tiana-parker-dreads_n_3873868.html
Did anything like that happen in Aztec culture in the 13th century?
Why are we taking examples of things from 700, 2,000 years ago in some attempt to equalize things?
Really, you have to willfully ignore modern-day culture and the stigma that has followed black hairstyles for the past century in order to believe that your point is valid.
African does not mean “African American”, or even black. There are many cultures and skin tones in Africa.
My point, and the term that I’ve used throughout the page, is that dreads are not exclusive to *African American* culture, and they are not. I never denied, nor did I even remotely mean that dreads didn’t exist in Africa, as that’s obviously stated in that article. 😛 My point still stands. It’s US-centric and offensive for people here to be offended at anyone wearing dreads. They’ve been a part of *human* history for thousands of years, and are a natural tendency of ALL hair.
I mean, fine, we don’t want to use 700 year old examples? People wear dreads all over the world. Literally, all over the world, totally independently, without thought or knowledge of America or African Americans. Seriously?
Ok so let me get this straight.
According to you:
1) Black American slaves didn’t come from Africa.
2) Dreadlocks are a hairstyle most commonly found amongst white folks.
Cool. Thanks for the education.
… no, that’s not what I said at all. WTH, lol? You’re not even making sense.
Wow. Nikki literally said none of those things…ever. You are trying to discredit her points by being facetious and dramatic.
She never denied that the majority of slaves came from Africa nor did she say dreads where commonly found amongst whites. Where in the world did you get all that from?
@Palapa–Astute. Yeah I was being extreme in order to emphasize how off-base her post was.
People are talking about American culture specifically because Miley is American.
Not every black person in America is of African origin.
Can we at least agree on that?
So dreadlocks originated in Africa and the style was first seen on people of African origin, most notably worn by the African slaves who were brought to the US.
Can we agree on that point as well?
Ok. So then a fair assumption would be that most dreadlocked people in American culture are on some level descendent from Africans, even if not directly so.
Are you with me?
Look, cultures aren’t interchangeable, Nikki. If you visited Pakistan, you’d probably wear a burqa.
My point is that using the idea that *some* other cultures in other countries wear dreadlocks as a supporting argument to why you think white American chicks should be able to wear them doesn’t really fly. Our country has our own unique history and a big part of it was founded on the back-breaking labor of PoC-Native Americans, black folk, and Hispanics. We punished and abused these people, called them “dirty” because of an appearance that was either dictated by the social construct we forced upon them or because we simply didn’t accept the fact that they looked different from us. To then turn around decades later and try that “look” on to be cool/shocking is insulting.
I don’t get why this doesn’t resonate with you. You know, you don’t even have to listen to me. Really, I’m just some white chick But I wish you would take black people’s word for it. If the majority of black commenters here are telling you it’s offensive, now is your queue to stop arguing and listen. You really don’t need to get it, you just need to realize that it’s not your place to tell PoC what shouldn’t offend them. Sometimes it takes me a second too– but I also recognize when it’s time to open up my ears and mind and learn something.
“So dreadlocks originated in Africa and the style was first seen on people of African origin, most notably worn by the African slaves who were brought to the US.
Can we agree on that point as well?”
No, and I already stated multiple times as to why. Namely the second part of that statement. You’re just entirely ignoring Indian culture and its significance, not to mention other cultures who have been dreading for thousands of years. This is highly ethno-centric and narrow minded.
“Look, cultures aren’t interchangeable, Nikki. If you visited Pakistan, you’d probably wear a burqa.”
Cultural elements are absolutely interchangeable. There’s nothing wrong at all with cross-cultural sharing as long as it’s not something like blackface. Blackface has a poor, racist, nasty cultural history. Dreadlocks are a human, international, natural state of human hair, and do not have this same association. It’s not “appropriation”.
I’m sorry that you don’t believe that people should share culture, and continue to participate in the divisions which are tearing us apart as people. If I was in Pakistan and wanted to visit a mosque, yes I’d abolsutely cover my head or do anything else I had to in order to respect their sacred spaces.
You don’t know who is black and who is not on these boards, as far as I’ve seen, few have declared it. You’re making assumptions. The only people, in fact, who have actually come out and said they are black are the individuals who said they felt Miley’s dreads are fine.
People other than African Americans wearing dreads is not wrong, it’s not offensive, and it’s not even the remotest thing people should be worrying about in terms of the racial issues in the United States.
“My point is that using the idea that *some* other cultures in other countries wear dreadlocks as a supporting argument to why you think white American chicks should be able to wear them doesn’t really fly.”
Of course it does. It’s not some, it’s many, and it’s significant. It really is insulting for you to treat other cultures as insignificant to the contribution of the history of dreads and dread culture, how do you not see that? It’s so ethnocentric.
In any case, I’ve said my piece. People can continue to “claim” things they feel as their own, regardless of world cultural curent standing or historical influence, apparently, and no one can say otherwise.
@ Kitten – what about that blacks that aren’t offended at all? Do we discredit them? Maybe they just don’t get “it”? There are two commenters on here that are black that have no problem with the hair. If we all just stopped being offended for a moment there would be less hatred in my opinion. Seriously I wish we could all just get along without the judging and pettiness. I don’t think Miley’s hair is disrespectful – I just don’t see that. I just don’t get the ire. A while ago there was magazine that featured a white model sporting a voluminous head of tight blond curls and some people were up in arms about it saying she was appropriating the afro! And why wasn’t a black women used for the shoot?! WTF that was the models natural hair. Getting offended just for the sake of getting offended is de rigueur it seems. If this is the case then fake large lips and butts ala Kardashians should be offensive too as black women tend to have the most gorgeous full pouts, etc. Seriously it’s all too much and so petty.
@DestinationUnknown: Obviously not every black person is offended by the stereotype of dreadlocks and black people. But the entire point of those of us supporting sensitivity to victims of appropriation is that the stereotype was unfortunately made and the cultures (not every single person, but the majority) assigned the stereotypes have taken possession of them. Therefore, in this country, Miley’s actions are considered appropriation, regardless of her ignorance.
By contrast, as the texture and color of Caucasian hair varies so greatly, no real stereotype regarding hair has stuck to white people; hence, by a great majority, no offense is taken when a man or woman of color straightens or colors their hair.
Yeah, it’s tedious, but you can thank the bigots who thought labeling races and cultures was no big deal.
@destination. I read that article too. That particular model had straight hair.
@ DestinationUnknown- I said specifically “the majority of black commenters here” and I specifically avoided making a sweeping statement about how black people as a whole feel because black people are not a monolith. I’ve been commenting here for 5 years, I’m aware of many of the commenters here who are black. Additionally, white people have stolen sh*t from blacks for years, if one black person says “hey maybe leave this alone” I’m going to listen. Whether you choose to listen of not is up to you. *shrugs*
@ Nikki L. This is your statement:
“No, and I already stated multiple times as to why. Namely the second part of that statement. You’re just entirely ignoring Indian culture and its significance, not to mention other cultures who have been dreading for thousands of years. This is highly ethno-centric and narrow minded.”
How many Indian people were living in the United Stated a century ago? I’m talking specifically about the US seeing locs for the first time. It was NOT on Indian people, it was on African slaves who were shackled to slave boats and grew locs on their journey from Africa to the US. I know you think I’m “ethnocentric” or whatever nonsensical accusation you choose to throw at me, but you cannot undo centuries of ingrained, systemic abuse with your rose-colored glasses and ignoring it does nothing to move us forward. The truth is that a white person can shave their locs off when they get tired of them, but a black person is still black regardless of their hairstyle.
It is what it is.
I used Indians as an example, but yes, there are other examples which you are ignoring, too.
Your statement “The US seeing locks specifially for the first time” and then the context that you use it in makes no sense.
By the time the United States was founded, Europeans had already been to both Africa and India, and many other places in the world. The “U.S.” had seen dreadlocks on people from other cultures before they saw slaves, because people had been all over the world before the U.S. even existed.
Celts, Vikings, and other white indigenous European tribes were said to have worn dreads as well, because it’s a NATURAL tendency of the hair and no one “owns” it. I mean, really?
The United States is not the end-all and be-all of world culture and history. To deny the long history of dreads and all the cultures which have embraced them in both a historical and modern sense IS ethnocentric.
@Jessiebes – no that wasn’t the article I was referring too, it was one much earlier than that. But since you mention the one about the model with straight hair…I see it as a form of flattery to those that have that type of hair. The typical we all want what we cant have, straight wants curly and vice-versa. Afros are gorgeous on black and white women both. Why would one get angry with the other for wanting that look if she thinks it is beautiful? I think the white model with that hair was stunning, not your average flat-ironed straight hair. Again, it would sadden me to think that black women would get upset that a white woman would want her hair that way, because what it says is that she loves it. No “appropriation” just admiration.
@ destination. Sure as a white person with straight hair, I do sometimes envy those people with Afros – because it does look gorgeous. But Afros are very difficult to maintain and take care off.
Anyway the article I was referring too. I think the problem was, why use a white person with straight hair, styled into an Afro, when they could have used a black person with a natural Afro? Because black models are still in the minority in the model world.
you point is kind of irrelevant because miley is not in school. there are lots of places where dreadlocks, tattoos, piercing and being half- naked would be considered inappropriate for any race. people get discriminated against their appearance ALL THE TIME. I’m not denying history it’s just world is not fair, you know. And not only to black people. Not because of the hairstyle which was not appropriated from anyone
“You point is kind of irrelevant because miley is not in school.”
THAT’S what you got out of that link?
Tattoos and piercings generally don’t have any religious significance to white people, nor are they things that are commonly associated with any particular race.
But would a child get forced out of school for her ears being pierced?
So why should she get thrown out of school for her natural hairstyle?
I’m really giving up at this point. I really am.
Dreadlocks are not commonly associated with any particular race either. Go to India and see for yourself that most Hinduism followers do have this hairstyle (again, such hair is easier to maintain in harsh conditions). again, most of the white peoples hair can form dreads if not combed. So it’s natural hair for everyone.
What happened to that girl is heartbreaking but I doubt that it happened because of racism. My friend was expelled because of her clothes, so what?
Miley isn’t Hindu and she’s not living in India so why are we bringing up what happens in other countries as if it’s applicable here in America?
As I said above, cultures are not interchangeable.
Not. Relevant. Because. Miley’s. Not. In. School.
Omg. She’s right. There is no racism! Her friend got kicked out school, too! It’s all made up! The great black conspiracy! We can all go home now.
Dont give up Kitten!
this paragraph says it all:
My point is that using the idea that *some* other cultures in other countries wear dreadlocks as a supporting argument to why you think white American chicks should be able to wear them doesn’t really fly. Our country has our own unique history and a big part of it was founded on the back-breaking labor of PoC-Native Americans, black folk, and Hispanics. We punished and abused these people, called them “dirty” because of an appearance that was either dictated by the social construct we forced upon them or because we simply didn’t accept the fact that they looked different from us. To then turn around decades later and try that “look” on to be cool/shocking is insulting.
it’s this. this is the reason it’s not ok to take even more from a culture. enough- enough has been taken.
yes, i’m sorry, you are right. If you catch a white person (even if he’s ancestors never lived in a country with slavery and never benefited from it) in a daylight wearing dreadlocks you should know his BAD, racist, and he OWES you . Especially if he’s rich. So ignorant
Why are all these white boy rappers not blasted for cultural appropriation? Rap IS something that began in the African American community, pardon me, in actual Africa and the Carribean (http://www.plasticlittleraps.com/history-of-rap-music.html). And Vanilla Ice, 3rd Bass, Beastie Boys, Eminem, Macklemore et all TOTALLY took a ‘black’ musical expression as their own. Shit, Blondie did it first in her song Rapture with one line making references to Fab Five Freddy, eating cars, and execution-style murder. It is one of the first hit songs to incorporate elements of hip-hop (http://www.vulture.com/2009/04/these_are_heady_times_for.html). And nobody got all twisted about THAT.
All of those artists you mentioned have been blasted for cultural appropriation. Vanilla ice was mostly a laughingstock and a punchline. Beastie Boys didn’t gain acceptance until they started playing their own instruments and moved away from the pure hip hop sound. And Macklemore is going through their own prolonged “white privilege” backlash as we speak.
You’s misinformed http://www.rockhall.com/inductees/beastie-boys/bio/
As for Vanilla Ice, he was hugely accepted by the rap community, opening for the likes of N.W.A, Public Enemy, The D.O.C., Tone Lōc, 2 Live Crew, and Public Enemy tried to get Def Jam to sign him. His fall from grace was due to drug problems, that shitty movie of his, and failure to keep releasing good albums, not because he was a white rapper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_Ice
Macklemore just has the misfortune of being a white rapper in today’s society of the hyper-sensitive ‘culture police’
Your better off just ignoring mzizkrizten, this person is trolling and doesn’t what to be educated or understand while people find it offensive.
@Neah23
Seems like s/he’s making well reasoned arguments to me. Dismissing them as uneducated is rude.
Lets discuss holidays. Mother’s Day originated in Greece to pay homage to their goddess Cybele, Mardi Gras is a French observance that Americans use as an excuse to get drunk, Cinco De Mayo is a Latino holiday that Americans use as an excuse to get drunk, St Patrick’s Day is an Irish holiday celebrating a Saint and Americans use that as an excuse to get drunk (LOL notice a pattern)… so hey I guess we’re all culturally appropriating and ain’t it grand?!
STFU
So I guess that does answer my question.
You already had a pre-formed opinion and were not going to be persuaded to hear it from other’s perspective regardless of what they said.
That is absolutely fine.
I just wish I knew why you wouldn’t simply say that rather than feigning ambivalence and innocence on the topic only to post link after link defending your perception that it is harmless or doesn’t exist.
Ambivalence means having conflicting emotions about something and that is clearly not me, my stance is obvious.
If anyone has a predetermined outlook, it’s you, Eternal.
Telin
That’s pretty obvious. I’m arguing a definite point and I’ve made no mysteries about it. Hiding one’s opinion for the sake of feigning confusion is what I find puzzling. Genuine lack of knowledge deserves genuine intent to inform. Anything else is just games.
I’m making a honest question here, as an admitedly ignorant woman who doesn’t fully understand cultural appropiation. If Miley hadn’t made the “mammy” comment, or dismissed Nicki’s point entirely, if Miley was truly respectful of black culture in the USA, would people have a problem with her wearing dreadlocks? Is the problem that she’s wearing dreadlocks or that she’s being a hypocrite?
Thing is that two years ago she was on that same stage twerking, singing about black girls looking like strippers, having only black backup dancers walking around like a clown collection and many other things.
so for two years she’s cherrypicking elements from black culture and perpetuating negative stereotypes for her own gain. And this image came out of no-where, it’s totally manufactured to sell a product. It’s a longterm pattern with her, not just a single dreadlock-occurrence. By wearing locks, talking nonstop about weed and referencing ‘mammy’ she once again is perpetuating a negative stereotype for her own profit.
And I’m not sure a popstar would get the opportunities to sell this specific ‘package’ if she wasn’t white.
Mind you, I also consider myself still very ignorant, so I might be missing many points.
JFC some of You here sincerely effing suck about as Much as Miley if Not More cause at Least we can ascribe her Ignorance and Pedantic crap To Being Young
i dont have The indefatigable energy or goodwill to get you to learn and To get woke That Kitten, Eternal Sideeye GNAT and Alex Do (but blessings for that)
Thank you, but I am done for the day. Lol. I’m happy to learn, and have a lot I need to learn, and I’m happy to try to explain some things to people who are willing to listen. But you can’t argue with closed minds or people who have agendas that they will go to Ancient Greece to defend. It’s not worth it.
Agree completely. Done. *hugs to QQ and GNAT*
Want to thank you all too. If it means anything, you all have taught me so much in this thread and in ones before.
This is absurd. People are absurd.
It’s a hair style. You do not own it. Your culture does not own it. Get over it and get a real problem.
Your comment is absurd too.
Get a life. Worry about things worth worrying about. Not who has society approved hairstyles or fashion.
If you take issue with this, you’re nothing but a shallow, small minded person.
I personally can’t be bothered about who gets which haircut because I’m too busy trying to pay my bills and take care of sick relatives.
Oh dear, what’s with the aggressive tone? Is that really necessary to get your point across?
It’s absurd to me to brush the whole thing aside as if it has no deeper significance.
Just because you personally don’t understand why this might bother african Americans doesn’t mean the whole issue is without merit.
Should we able to borrow from different cultures to some extent and do people do this?
Yes. I suspect the issue here is that this is done by someone who simuntanously belittle black women’s experiences.
Side note: you are on a celebrity gossip site, haircuts and silly stuff is basically what you get here. There are other sites out there if you want real news.
@Tellin, there is such a thing as being socially responsible (taking care of sick people) while also caring about other topics in life such as appropriation. The two can work together. I’m sure everyone in this post cares about major issues too. Caring about this does not diminish other concerns in life.
@jammypants: This!
Is someone reporting me? Have I been banned? I typed a long, painful paragraph, and it never posted. I typed it again,and even more painful, and it didn’t post. So I typed a very short synopsis, and that seemed to be on for a minute and now it’s gone. I didn’t violate any rules that I know of. I’m confused. Or are you all seeing my posts and I just can’t see them?
I can see this one, but none from you before it.
Sometimes if your comment is too long it doesn’t go through, so you may have to break it up into pieces.
I am completely shocked that we are still having this convo. I’m also appalled, embarrassed and totally frustrated by the comments. Wow.
Welcome to the Eyeroll Club, sis, have as many as you like cuz,,,, Ancient Greece … ROTFLMAO
I also Wonder If an Irish person’s Nose Itch everytime the #AllLivesMatter Twatwaffles Bring Up Irish Dreads and such
Yeah. I don’t know what to say, I have never been the most eloquent writer anyway. But so much wrong in this thread, so many brick walls.
Was there some fissure in the earth that these trolls commenced from today? I mean, sh-t is bad but seriously after reading all of these comments…well one thing is for certain: Over half of these posters eat babies for breakfast. #itisknown
QQ, Jessiebes, Mimif
If I roll my eyes at the amount of ridiculous comments we have here they will SURELY get stuck in the back on my head. I’ve never seen people argue this much about their “right” to appropriate the culture of others. It’s disheartening that they absolutely WILL NOT LISTEN. How can you sit there and insist on your own personal preference when someone tells you flat out why your actions are offensive?? I just don’t get it. It’s selfish and disrespectful. So glad yall haven’t given up because I surely have. Thanks for continuing to patiently explain this 😩
Mimif I died at eat babies for breakfast 😂😂😂
I’m a little torn on the notion of objecting to cultural appropriation. Conceptually some of the people who object to gay marriage basically use cultural appropriation arguments when they say “have a civil union but don’t call it marriage because that’s our thing.” They would likewise argue that “appropriating” marriage disrespects the history and meaning behind it. Since I support gay marriage I must feel cultural appropriation is allowable even if the culture being appropriated objects. Thoughts?
Marriage was originally designed for moneyed or landed interests, it had NOTHING to do with religion nor was it ever specifically about a man and a woman although historically, it was only ever applied in that context.
Ok but then is an interracial marriage cultural appropriation? (Given time married people do often start to act more alike, too. Is that not ok?) Which culture is their child permitted to adopt? Must adopted children of different cultures not assimilate their parent’s culture? If a white person loves sushi is that cultural appropriation? IMHO banning cultural appropriation is condoning segregation.
You make some great points Jay.
Sushi? Look, there’s a huge difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange–don’t conflate the two.
Marriage has existed for centuries before modern Christians chose to engage in it, it’s also existed under that name before Christians, it’s also existed under that name in the US regardless of whether Christians engage in it, it’s also existed under that name even when people marry multiple times in spite of what Christians believe is morally acceptable.
In short…yeah, these two things aren’t comparable. Marriage is an entity that’s existed since the dawn of time regardless of what modern Christians wish to inflict on others.
Christianity is not a race or culture, it’s a belief system. If a person hooks up with, dates, or marries people of another race BECAUSE they see them as accessories/novelties or likes the way getting with someone of that race makes them look, then yes, that is definitely shallow, racist, and using people as props or accessories. But if they hook up with, date, or marry someone who happens to be of another race for other reasons then no, it’s not. The same applies to adopting children.
That old lady in the skit was Miley’s REAL grandmother…she has always called her “mammy”.
I’m really sick of the term “cultural appropriation”. Most people don’t even understand the concept. Hey well I’m Indian so anyone wearing hair weave/extensions made from the hair of my people is disrespecting my culture I guess right? I mean Indian hair should only be for Indian people right? You do know that hair was donated by Indian women to scared Hindu Temples as offerings…then hair companies come and swoop the hair up for FREE and sell it to gullible Americans for LOTS of money. Go figure !
Oh and I’m also offended when Jay-Z used a Punjabi beat for one of his songs. That’s MY culture right ?
Let’s just agree that Miley is a lost cause for many reason…forget the dreadlocks and look at the bigger picture.
If that was her only offense – id agree. And at least Jay paid homage to the artists he used for the beat. Its recorded. But the writing not just for Miley’s portion but the whole show was offensive. And by disregarding anyone’s offense because “most don’t know what appropriation means” is not the answer and can easily be taught. Weave hair is not only used from India but Asia but I believe its used in an entirely different way. And there’s long heritage for that transaction. THat’s the point. No one is dressing up and acting on stage as an Indian mocking your culture as part of a skit. Miley basically was a minstrel show from the 60-70s. The weed jokes are old and tired and a turn off because – been there done that. And the writers were terrible. Miley wasn’t responsible for the writing. She didn’t write the skits. I don’t blame her for it. But the costuming and schtick was offensive.
Jay Z wasn’t paying homage…he just thought he was being innovative by using a Punjabi beat. He also made that one comment in one of his songs “girls girls girls” where he asked what tribe the girl was from “dot or feather”…how is that not offensive ?
Of course it was offensive…but for MANY reasons. The whole pro-drugs message was horrible…I mean kids were watching ! The nudity, the lack of dignity…I could go on and on. Also, as an Indian person, you can’t tell me what I’m allowed to find offensive or not allowed to find offensive…just like I can’t tell any other race what they are allowed to be offended by. When I said most people don’t even know what cultural appropriation means, I was not using it as an excuse for their ignorance…I was trying to say that people aren’t bothering to educate themselves on what the term actually means. The majority of weave hair is Indian hair. Actually Miley did have Bollywood dancers as part of that “selfie skit” and I’m surprised they actually hired Indians for the skit instead of white people dressed up as Indians. That’s new. Miley was on Jimmy Kimmel earlier this week and she said she was very hands on with how the show was going to be done. She said MTV gave her control over what she wanted to do. So yeah, Miley is just as much to blame.
Wow, I didn’t know that about Jay-Z, that sucks.
This is so not genuine. Appropriation and privilege is the cause du jour at the moment, along with being transgendered. So if an artist wants clicks and media coverage, all they have to do is hop on the bandwagon and claim something, and People will be all over it. Until the next trendy cause comes along.
So true !
It’s called EVOLVING. It happens you know?
Apparently not for everyone.
Being transgendered is du jour?
I gotta admit you just made me envious of you, imagine how happy I’d be if I was completely oblivious to the world around me. You’re totally right. This whole crazy ‘transgendered’ (I mean what the heck is that???) thing started THIS year.
Eye roll.
I think the point of the comment was to say how the media and public are acting like “Transgender” is a new word or something…like it became “hip” this year…which of course is ridiculous…and next year it will be forgotten and something else will be spoken of…the word is sh*tty like that.
Acting like you are so much more enlightened than everyone else is seriously off putting and will do more harm to your causes than good.
double post
Privivildge is not du jour. Especially white people are privilidged because we get better access to good schools, jobs, houses, etc etc. Because racism.
There’s appropriation, and then there’s “American melting pot.” Where do we draw the line? When we do not allow traditions and styles to be adopted by others, “melted” into the melting pot, are we not enforcing the “otherness” of different cultures? Why should embracing other people’s cultures be shunned as appropriation instead of seen as appreciation? Should Irish and Scottish people start being offended at the use of plaids and cable knitting?
The funny thing about the idea of the ‘melting pot’ is it was a way to look at America that many minoritie were never happy with. There’s even been concerted effort to do away with the teaching of the ‘melting pot’ and introduce a more respectful ideal such as the quilt.
Furthermore let’s stop acting like America gives respect and equal footing to those minorities encouraged to ‘melt’ on in.
Canada calls itself a “tossed salad” where you are allowed to keep your identity but still live among others without being expected to “melt” into one big non-cultured society.
I like that idea, lol, shame the phrase has sexual context in the US but I do like the imagery of us all being different ingredients in the salad that is life.
@ The Eternal Side-Eye
I must be stupid but what does “tossed salad” mean in a sexual content sort of way? Never heard of that.
So a white person should never wear dreads?
you’ve missed the point. theres a difference.
She thinks she is so cool, but she needs to learn that being a try-hard is not cool. You’re trying way too hard sweetie.
Most of these girls (Rihanna, Madonna, Nicki, Miley, Taylor, Rita Ora, Khloe K, Katy Perry, the Housewives, Kelly Osborne etc.) can act tough and badass in videos or on stage but put them on some tough, real streets and they will still have bodyguards.
The only person who I think will own it and fight for herself if need be is Rhonda Rousey.
Fighting for yourself and owning it doesn’t always have to be physically, but I kind of see your point.
The fact that some of you here don’t understand yet what cultural appropriation is at all is pretty frightening. Not gonna lie. Because its not new. Remember when you were a kid and Elvis was singing and dancing like James Brown and basically stole more than one of Ray Charles songs to appease his white audience…. that called CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. I can name many other white artists who’ve done the same. And back then, white artists didn’t feel the need to reference or pay or acknowledge the black talent they stole from to make themselves popular. BUT IN 2015 we are still explaining this to people who should have read some history books about Black face or minstrel shows so we shouldn’t need to explain it. Katy Perry making herself up to be a Geisha Girl to perform on stage… That’s offensive. Its not just wearing braids or dreads but using vernacular and dress as costume – then not paying respect for its origins.
Do you remember when Elvis was reviled by anyone over the age of 18 as the next coming of Satan? People hated him. Ed Sullivan refused to air him on his show after that initial famous broadcast, ever again, unless he could film him from the waist up. Elvis wasn’t accepted until he got old and fat and he wasn’t new anymore.
Elvis didn’t steal anything. He was a Southern Baptist and paid tribute to that all the time. He was influenced by the culture and music around him that he loved at the time. It was what he knew, and it was what he sang. How is that any less valid because he’s white? He grew up around it, what was he supposed to sing? That’s what he knew. What’s acceptable music for white people to make and sing?
You’re acting like black artists never got recognition. BB King, Dizzy Gillespie, Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, and many others were and are recognized as defining artists of the musical timeline you say was popularized by whites.
You don’t know what people are paying respect to when they’re wearing dreads, because you don’t ask them. How are they supposed to pay respect before wearing a cross cultural element if you don’t ask what their intentions are? A blog post? A tweet? Do they have to walk around and announce what they’re paying repect to if they decide to wear a piece of clothing outside their culture? This goes for anyone, world wide, I’m asking, how do we determine this? You can’t, that’s the point. You’re arguing because you want acceptance but you don’t want people wearing what you wear or doing what you do. That’s exclusionary and childish. You’re railing against the world coming together, and society coming together and sharing and appreciating one another, and it’s futile. It’s inevitable.
These are real questions that get dismissed with “well, you just don’t understand.” No, I DO understand what you are saying, completely, I just don’t *agree* and am challenging it, and when I ask pointed, real questions about “appropriation” from a sociological standpoint, I can never get straight answer, questions like, “Okay, well then what IS acceptable, how do you define it? What is the standard?” All logical questions are always met with derision.
I ask these questions because it’s trying to come up with a solution. Well okay, if you say this is occurring, then define it, what are the parameters for acceptance? No one can. They just want to hate cross-culturalization and say it’s not okay, and not even see how that whole notion is rooted int he racism they decry. I’ve seen people here literally say “cross cultural homogenization is okay” and then say it’s not okay in the SAME post.
Adopting and wearing certain cross cultural elements in a joyful way IS acceptance. People just don’t want to see it at all.
Elvis didn’t steal? Uh, sure.
Look up Big Mama Thorton, then get back to us.
Nikki L. – I completely agree with you. I LOVE Japanese culture, love it. I have a gorgeous silk kimono that I wear at home when I’m lounging about. I have it and wear it because I love what it represents to me. I would hate to think that that would be offensive to anyone because I was not born Japanese.
@destinationunknown
Right? When I was growing up, I was very into British culture – I listened to britpop, ate fish n chips at British pubs around town, and watched BBC shows on PBS.
But I’m American and of Irish/German descent. Is this considered offensive for some reason?
It’s just bizarre to me.
My guess is that next year everyone will have moved onto something else.
I am from the Netherlands. My culture & history has wooden shoes. Many tourists buy them. Although I don’t know why, they are very uncomfortable.
But these wooden shoes do not stem from a culture of oppression, slavery or racism. Whereas dreadlocks do. That is the difference.
Big Mama didn’t write Hounddog, she just recorded it first.
SO many famous songs of that era were recorded and rerecorded so many times – there were so many unoriginal songs but just with different interpretations.
Big Mama’s song was given to her to sing by two Jewish songwriters. Elvis didn’t cover it after hearing her version, he covered it after hearing a later version done by Freddie Bell and the Bellboys.
Go visit Memphis and learn about the history. There’s so much fascinating information in the museums and streets.
A lot of terrible racist stuff happened in the south but the music was a coming together, a way to bridge the gap. There was collaboration and unity. There were successes of both black and white artists. Was there no racism or stealing? Absolutely not because humans are flawed and those things will never ever be eradicated [and it was a different time] but look at the full picture – Elvis covered songs by white and black artists. Black and white artists covered songs sung originally by Elvis.
This is a true story. I have a neighbor who is a lawyer and uses his first and middle initials instead of his real name because that name is typically associated with African-Americans. Isn’t that a shame that his real name, in some instances, won’t get him through the door? He is, in fact, African-American, but he knows doors will close to him for that reason alone, before he even has a chance to show he’s a good lawyer. I find this very, very sad and disturbing.
Theres a video of a man showing the variation in the responses to job offers he got when he sent in applications with his name as Jose vs. Joe.
It’s a rough world.
Martin Sheen could not get jobs as an actor under his birth name Estevez (his father was from Spain, his mother was of some other European heritage), so he adopted the professional name of Martin Sheen. No problem after that. Same person, same resume, just a different name attached. If you look at credits on old movies and tv shows, you would assume everybody in Hollywood was Anglo-Saxon…. They all were changing their names in that direction. George Burns was actually Nathan Birnbaum, son of Roumanian Jewish immigrants. In the Burns and Allen TV show (early 1950s), he also pretends to be some sort of Christian, since at the time it was wise to not be too upfront about being Jewish also. Things did loosen up eventually, so now credits on tv shows and movies display a wide variety of ethnic origins.
So now Locks are cultural appropriation and everyone is on it? Bahahhahahahahhahaha. Looks like these people don’t see a lot of white hippieish kids. Because that is ALL they wear on their heads. For years. This is not a “lately” thing. How strange that they just noticed.
…yeah those kids totally invented it, no inspiration from anywhere, nope.
it’s weird, because the white people i know with dreads do tend to be peace + love hippies that don’t want to offend or harm anyone.
it’s bizarre to see them now being accused of racism and hatred.
I agree. It’s ridiculous.
@nikki
at this point, it just seems like some of the so-called progressives here are bullies towards anyone who doesn’t think the way they do.
it is not a bad thing to listen to other people’s opinions. People who actually experience rasism through cultural approriation.
Cultural appropriation. Hmmmm….
So, does that make me “racist” or “ignorant” becos I, too, wear and custom make my own uv reactive lox (dread falls) and have since 1999?
I’m 3/4ths Japanese and a 1/4 German. It’s apropos for my Cyberpunk/Dieselpunk style and have not ever had a black person say anything negative or untoward about my lox other than that they love my style.
Any person of any color can walk into an ethnic hair salon and pay between $150 and $200 to get dreadlocks. In India, in both salons and open air markets, women will gladly take your money and apply a Henna tattoo. In Jamaica, a white woman will pay $50-$100 for a head full of corn rows. Apple Bottom Jeans, a brand founded by rapper Nelly, is worth $55 million thanks to a huge distribution deal with Macy’s.
My only point- if cultural appropriation is so morally wrong and offensive, why is it such big business? In the “supply and demand” debate on this, why are we not hearing about business people of color denying access to these supposed touchstones of ethnicity that are exclusive to them?
Outrage must flood the brain with dopamine or something, because some people just seem addicted to it.
“Why is it such big business?”
Because it’s FUN to get your hair cornrowed for the summer vacation! Same with tanning and doing other stuff to look more ‘tropical’.
Also, are you really asking why many people entirely dependent on tourist dollars and interest to help them survive are willing to sell aspects of their culture to whoever will purchase them?
They’re literally picking apart The Great Wall of China brick by brick to sell to tourists and destroying their own cultural monument because desperate hungry people will sell ANYTHING to survive.
You think because hungry desperate people don’t say no that there’s nothing sad or wrong with cultures being itemized, torn apart, and sold to be a fun little souvenir to some tourist who won’t care about those people once they leave the island?
I think the real issue is why does Bieber look so much like Miley ?. If they get the same haircut and she doesn’t put make up on i bet they look like twins
“Taking intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts from someone else’s culture without permission. This can include unauthorized use of another culture’s dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols, etc”
So you better ask somebody before you make Italian/Chinese/French food if you aren’t Italian/Chinese/French… You better ask somebody before you practice a religion that’s outside of your own race… Don’t you play no music from other cultures of you didn’t ask first. Don’t learn the hula of you’re not Hawaiian. Oh and if you have a fringed anything and you’re not a percentage American Indian, you’re appropriating culture now stop that you’re bad.
You’re embarrassing yourself. I’d be embarrassed for you but I’m fresh out after reading this shit show of a thread.
If you stick to appropriating Western European Caucasian cultures you’re pretty much safe from the Tumblr hoards. Otherwise, look out!
Pssssst HEY WHITE FOLKS. Time to sit down now and stfu for a solid millennium or two.
*sits down and sips tea*
As in the case of Kylie Jenner, it’s not really about the hair. There are other things about Miley’s actions and words that indicate cluelessness about quite a few things involving race and history. Without that part of the package, I doubt that people would be reacting negatively to the hairstyle itself. (Double standards can be addressed separately without assuming genetic rights to a hairstyle, and having other groups wear dreadlocks and cornrows actually provides opportunities to deal directly with double standards and bans on such hairstyles in schools, workplaces, and the military.) In both Kylie’s and Miley’s cases, the annoying part is that they were using stereotypes to “play black”. The hairstyle was just a visible trigger for feelings about that.
https://mobile.twitter.com/_Rarity/status/622057012776554501
Kitten, GNAT, Eternal Side eye and the others who have so graciously taken the time to explain cultural appropriation, I’m sure this tweet is exactly what you’re feeling at the moment.
And just for a little comic relief (because this thread is depressing AF):
https://instagram.com/p/7CKy9GQLln/?taken-by=xandernotharris
Mammy is often used in the south. I know multiple friends who call their grandmas’ mammy.
What makes me saddest about the current state of the world is the actual serious conversations we could have are the ones people get most rude and close-minded about. I can have a lengthy, polite and fun discussion about how Little Mix is a better girl band than Fifth Harmony; but when it comes to cultural appropiation, nobody is willing to sit down and listen to what people have to say. And this goes both ways, people.
I have trouble understanding cultural appropiation because I see it being used to describe situations I just dont find similar at all. Not anyone can wear a Native American hair bonnet because that’s sacred to their culture, it’s a piece only certain people are allowed to wear because of their contribution to their society, and just putting it on without knowing what it means is disrespectful. This makes total sense, I get it. Gwen Stefani is a fan of anime, modern Japanese culture and street style. This is incredibly common among people outside of Japan, there’s conventions held everywhere in the world celebrating this. Anime is not sacred, it’s just Japanese cartoons. Harajuku style isnt sacred either, its just how a segment of Japanese people like dressing. Gwen Stefani pays a tribute to that, making actual Japanese girls a very important part of the show, shows respect and admiration for this culture lots, and she’s accused of cultural appropiation, because she’s using it as a part of her art and makes money of it. This case, I do not get.
People here are making well-worded and studied arguments to defend their stance, it’s ridiculous that’s just summed to “omg, so done with you, I cant”. Being so close minded about discussing this subject just shows you dont really care about the issue, you just want to be right about it.
The amount of willfully obtuse mouth-breathing going on here by white people insisting appropriation isn’t real is the most embarrassing mess I’ve ever read on this site. And yeah, not one of them is interested in learning anything or stepping outside their privilege bubble, only in being “right”.