Mayim Bialik usually speaks her mind, which I think is great. I may not always agree with her specifics but I usually like the subjects she takes on. Fresh off her parity win on Big Bang Theory, Mayim posted a video to her vlog over the weekend asking people to stop calling women “girls”. In the four + minute video, Mayim said she was moved to tackle this after being out with a couple of 40-something male friends when one said to the other, “Oh my God, dude, look at that girl sitting at the bar. She’s beautiful.” Here’s the video:
The phrase that she asked you to google in the video is ‘Sapir-Whorf’ and wiki defines it as, “The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects its speakers’ world view or cognition.”
To be clear, I agree with Mayim. I think, for the most part, she lays out her case well. The crux of her argument as to why the practice of referring to adult females as “girls” must stop is:
“When we use words to describe adult women that are typically used to describe children, it changes the way we view women, even unconsciously, so that we don’t equate them with adult men. In fact, it implies that they are inferior to men.”
I could put the period right there and be done. But Mayim goes on to address a few other points like the fact that we do not call adult males “boys.” Some commenters on the YouTube page say they do in their (non USA) country. I have no idea if this is the case so I’ll leave that to our international readers. Most of the comments in opposition to Mayim fell under the “lighten up” umbrella. Several called out the phrase “Girls Night Out” and quoted Beyoncé’s Girls Rule the World title to negate any validity in Mayim’s argument. I get they are just being obstinate so screw them but it does open the discussion as to what is an appropriate more relaxed term for women to equate with “guy” for men. I tend to use “lady/ladies” but I know some people read in to that term as well.
Like most points Mayim makes, I agree with what she is saying. Language matters and we need to stop using the logic of “it’s always been,” which perpetuates these patronizing specifications. But, as I often find with Mayim, I don’t like how she gets her message across. In this case, she has a good point and yet she couches it in apologies and condescension. She must say three times at the start that she sorry she has “to do this” or “be that person.” Why? Her whole point is someone needs to say this, why dilute it with an apology? Later, she coaches us on how to correct people when they use “girl” instead of “woman.” She gives examples of her sarcastic responses and punctuates them with a smirk. Lord knows I am a huge proponent of sarcasm but if I have a valid point, I don’t hide it in sarcasm and risk it getting lost. And I know several people who will stop listening outright if I smirk at them while making my argument. Maybe I’m nitpicking but it seems odd to make a stance on language mattering and completely disregard tone, which is part and parcel with language.
Photo credit: WENN photos
I’ve heard grown men being called “boys”. I guess it depends where you live? I have no problem being called a “girl”. I am one ! But that’s just my opinion. “Girl” seems young to me…I’m ok with that lol.
As an American in late twenties, I call everyone boys and girls, and so do all the people I know.
Really? You’d say “Look at that hot boy at the other end of the bar?”
@Val. Yes. Without doubt. I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone I’ve dated a man. That would just give me the shivers.
I just stick to “Oooo Gurrrllll….”
I think it all depends on context. I work in what is traditionally a male dominated field. And when I am working with (usually an older white male) that can’t believe some “girl” has the knowledge to help them and could probably fix it even faster than they can.
Examples: “Wow, girl, you really do know what you’re talking about”
” Didn’t know a girl would be so knowledgeable about this”
I am a young woman or a lady. I am not some girl that you get to talk over or refuse to work with because you think a man would know more.
However, I do use girls night out, or girlfriends getaway. So I guess for myself girl is fine in informal settings or when its not being used in a misogynistic way. At work I do like being referred to as a lady or woman though.
I prefer girl over woman.
Are you a child?
Well, I’m not. I’m 50. And my GIRLfriends and I are going to have a GIRLS only weekend getaway. Everyone needs to lighten the hell up.
People have the right to be called whatever they want. If an adult woman wants to be called “girl” what is the issue here? It’s her right isn’t it?
I’m not a child, I’m 38. Tonight and tomorrow night, I’ll be out with the girls. It’s one of the girls 70th birthday. My BOYfriend not MANfriend are spending the weekend together. As long as it’s not diirty and disrespectful, what’s the big deal? People definitely need to lighten the he’ll up
I disagree with her but I respect what she says. We are becoming too sensitive on many subjects.
I was surprised to learn how much small-city Canada still uses “girls” to describe women who work. “I’ll tell the girls in the office” and so on. Coming from the US, I was disappointed. Women work so hard for respect and don’t benefit from being cast in the workplace as anything other than mature, fully grown workers. We pay adults more than we pay kids.
How do the call the men in the office?
Im my Company (small Company in Germany) I regularly call the men in my department “jungs” or boys in englisch and they are all older than me. Other heads of departments with mixed employees say “Jungs und Mädels”; boys and girls.
In my office if i have to send communication to a large group of people i don’t refer to different sexes. If i’m trying to be cheeky i’ll say “Ladies and Gents”
The female equivalent of guys would be gals..but nobody wants to hear that. I think it’s who’s using the term and the intent that matters. As far as not calling men ‘boys’..has she never heard of ‘going out with the boys’ or ‘boy’s night out’? She has a point, but there is so much in popular culture that is truly offensive and dismissive of women, I wonder how this rates.
Has she never used the term “boyfriend” as an adult? Or “girlfriend” for that matter?
That’s a good question that I have been wondering myself.
How long can I call my boyfriend, “my boyfriend”? After a certain age do I have to call him my partner? (I don’t know why I hate that expression and never want to use it, reminds me of old fashioned dancing or cops, I guess).
I’m 37 by the way, and I think, unless we get married, I will always refer to him as my boyfriend as opposed to significant other (too much of a mouthful) or partner
I HATE the term gals, and I know a lot of women who use it. I cringe every time. I feel like there should be a “ha-cha-cha” after someone says it, like old Vaudeville. “That gal has got some gams on her! Ha-cha-cha!”
I think it sounds cool / natural when older people use it, and I like that they do… but it just never fit for the younger generations who are grown up now.
I am a grown woman and I refer to other adult females as women. I’ve been paying attention to this for awhile and it is constant how often women are called girls. I am not a child. GROWN ASS WOMAN!!!!!
+1
I have refused to let anyone get away with referring to me as “girl” since I entered college. Nor, have I ever referred to any woman of college-age or over as a “girl”. Patronizing waiters learn very quickly not to call me “girl”. The collective “girls’ night out” or “boys’ night out” is not the same as referring to individuals as girls or boys.
BTW, it’s not only men who refer to women as girls. I cringe when women my age say that they had lunch/whatever with a “girl”… and, said “girl” is in her 50s/60s.
I don’t have a problem when it’s said in jest by a group of women who know it’s joking. That’s a wink. You have to know when to lighten up.
My parents raised me to believe that once I hit 18, I was a woman, no longer a girl, and I should not allow people to treat me as such. I see “girls or boys” night out as slightly different as it’s a group with the purpose of having fun. But otherwise, no, absolutely not, and in my labor law practice, I emphasize with employers that “girl” must only refer to an actual child. Otherwise, it is a sexist insult that can be quite costly
I still hear, in 2017!, some men refer to their female assistants as their “girl”! WTF?! This isn’t 1950/60!
@Lina – as an assistant myself, the only time I have ever been referred to as “my girl” was by another woman. Truth was, I wasn’t “her” anything, but she liked to pretend she was my superior in order to impress clients. What a piece of work.
In a work environment, “girl” is just wrong if the men around you are “men”. It’s diminishing. Privately, for me, it’s a friendly term, a bit of a joke. As many posters observed, girl is usually used for someone who is hierarchically under the person speaking, which is even worse. Or else, I have seen it used as a way to patronise powerful women.
“Girl” is not for me, I agree with Bialik. And the difference of terms for “men” and “girls” reflects without a shadow of a doubt for me, the way people regard women in our society, still today.
I think lady or woman in the work environment, but if it’s a casual environment I have no problem with “girl”. I DEFINITELY still refer to a lot of grown men as boys. I can see how someone would feel very strongly about this and I agree, in the workplace I would never allow someone to refer to me as a girl.
+2
I am a grown woman
i actually hate sarcasm, it’s unfunny. and people who use it a lot think of themselves as much smarter than they actually are.
BUT, i agree. i always use men & women, because it sounds proper and grown up and doesn’t infantilise people. it’s true that among my generation (late 20s) using boy/girl is completely normal though.
I love sarcasm. Funny is funny. If the sarcasm is funny and/or true, it’s good. Not everyone who’s sarcastic thinks they’re superior. There are different forms of comedy. To each, their own.
I’d rather be called “girl” than “ma’am. “
I love ma’am!
It depends on situation and who says it. In private with friends it’s no big deal.
But many people (not just men but mostly them) use it to belittle women in workplace. How dare a woman outrank a man! Put the girl in her place!
It happend to me a few times especially with “Mädel” and “Fräulein”. The intention, the way they say it, the sneaky smirk…
I agree that’s contextual. The other day on the shuttle bus to uni my friend and I were referred to as ‘girls’ by the driver. It was so frustrating because we are grown up women he doesn’t know. If he meant it in an affectionate manner there’s less condescending phrases he could have used . We both too tired to call him out though.
When it’s said in a friendly manner from someone I know then I don’t mind. I am working on not using girls & boys because some people find it infuriating. It is slang in my generation tho. (I’m in my late twenties.)
I agree- I don’t mind it and occasionally say it myself, but don’t think it’s appropriate in a professional setting or when used to be condescending.
I agree with her point generally but am more conscious of the issue in the workplace. I don’t think that “boys” and “girls,” in the context of weekend fun, is a big issue. But in the workplace I cringe when a woman is referred to as a girl. There can also be that issue with men in the workplace, where boys is used as a way of implying that they’re inferior (it was certainly a common technique in the South for white men to use with black men).
This is an interesting and important conversation to have. In Spanish we have “niña” (mostly used in Spain and most countries in Central and South America), “nena” (used in Argentina and Uruguay), and “chica”. The two first ones refer to actual little girls, whereas the latter is mostly used to talk about teenagers and young women. We do use it between women in a “hey girls! Let’s do this and this” way. We are (veeery slowly) reevaluating how we use it in our everyday life, though.
It doesn’t bother me when i hear “girls” As someone else mentioned it depends on context. In my experience its usually women that refer to other women as girls. To me..not a big deal.
When Hillary Clinton announced her candidacy, I had a 19 year old white boy tell me that he “didn’t think America was ready for a girl President.” He actually referred to a 68 year old former Secretary of State, U.S. Senator, First Lady, Yale Law graduate as a “girl” & then used this as a reason she couldn’t be President.
And guess what? He was right.
America is a cell pool of misogyny and it’s time we ALL speak up, even in small ways, because it matters.
Mayim apologizes because she knows she’ll be attacked by dude bros and ‘cool’ girls for stating the obvious.
Anyone who thinks she’s making a big deal over nothing; ask yourself why racist white people call black men ‘BOY.’ Then ask yourself WHY you’re rolling your eyes over her speaking up.
There’s a reason why women are pressured to shut up, even by other women, to dismiss this kind of discussion.
Agree
Women’s rights advocates knew this in the 60s and earlier. Too many women are too complacent and ignorant of our history.
+2
And hey I get it, if you like being called a girl when you are above a certain age. I am turning 36 next month and I sure like when someone implies I am not old, wrinkly, saggy etc. But maybe reflect on why we feel this way and confront that there is indeed a difference in how men and women are treated by both genders. The fact is I am a woman and no longer a girl, a child, someone to be patronized and deminished. I am smart, capable and able to live my life on my own terms.
So true! Someone above said, for example, they’d rather be called “girl” than “ma’am” and I get that, but we need to ask WHY you’d rather be called a girl? Both represent a diminishment of power and agency. The worst sin in this world is to not only be female, but an old, unf*ckable female, right? THAT’S why some women cringe at being called Ma’am. We need to question this shit. Constantly.
I agree with her that I would rather be called a woman as I am a grown woman. But I do want to point out the intersectionalities within patriarchy as well. Not every man has the luxury of being called a man either. I notice that when my brothers (black men in their late 30’s and early 40’s) have interactions with white men and some white women they get referred to as ‘boy’ and we all know the historical connotations behind that. My brothers tell me all the time about work situations that despite their credentials and hard work a lot of their white co-workers refer to them as ‘boy’, but other men and women at work who are black refer to both men and women regardless of race not infantilizing them. So yes, a lot of racism in with patriarchy and sexism as this happens to me as well. Just something I wanted to share and something that should be included in intersectional conversations.
Under no circumstances should that be tolerated. And yes, they do have legal recourse.
That’s outrageous and should be reported.
I agree with her. Shouldn’t it say subconsciously and not unconsciously though in her excerpt? Just struck me as odd.
She’s right, even though it’s uncomfortable to hear.
Our words shape our cognition of the world around us, and other’s. I tend to agree with the weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. That our words influence, not control, our thoughts and world view.
She has a point, but I’m not a fan of how she packages her opinion-pieces. Whether its ok to say girls instead of women depends on the situation and the social setup. iirc Mayim doesn’t like calling children children, she calls them little persons or something like that,for a similar reason.
It amuses me that some ppl tried to justify their opinion by referencing Beyonce.
And to be truthful, President Obama was called “boy” a couple of times early on. Talk about offensive.
Mayim has a point and maybe her style is less instructive ideally. Context is very important, though and she doesn’t have much of that.
No one should use it in a work environment, but between friends, socially? I think that’s fine.
The problem is that there is no female equivalent to “guy”. I agree that when using the term “men” one should use “women”, and when using “boy” one should use “girl”, but what if one uses the term “guy”? “Gal” is the only thing close but that word almost never gets used. So people default to “girl”. Even in Mayim’s anecdote about what sparked this video, the male used the term “dude” when talking to his friend. So what’s the correct female equivalent to that word? “Chick” is terrible so it shouldn’t be that. We need more female equivalents to words describing males.
Gal & Dudette.
Bialik does too many phrases to “soften” her statement. You can understand that as weakness? Or as carefullness? Or as a slight bow to the patriarchalic establishment. I think it is the latter.
I would like to add that many men refer to themselves and their friends as “boys”. This does not weaken them nor does it imply they were inferior. Quite the opposite it is an excuse for bad behaviour. “Me and the boys went out and it got a little rowdy.” Here “the boys” who are adult men are excused by refering to themselves as “boys” and not as “men” who are responsible for their actions.
I agree with a lot of the commentors that say it’s all about the situation. My boss walking in the door and saying “Hey girl!” would bother me – but my best female friend walking in and saying “Hey girl!” would not bother me. It’s a really interesting conversation.
Of course I’m from RI so to say hello to two or more people I’ll say “hey guys!” no matter if they are two girls, two guys, my parents (which they hate) or a multi sex group – sort of like y’all…
Only see it mentioned here once but I was taught never to call a grown man “boy” that it had racist connections and therefore should not be used.
Well, it’s confusing because I know some older women who hate to be called ladies and prefer girls because it makes them feel younger. I personally call everyone “guys” but that’s probably because of where I grew up. *shrugs*
I feel compelled to comment here because I once referred to an acquaintance as a woman (she was 22 at the time) and she corrected me saying that she was a girl and that’s what I should call her. She felt I was implying something incorrect or untoward (I really wasn’t) and seemed to be quite irritated with me. I must stress that I find situations like this very perplexing as it makes me feel that no matter what I say, I’m going annoy someone. Is there some neutral word that can be used that won’t cause offence ?
Apparently not, because “female” upsets people, too. So “female”, “woman”, and “girl” are apparently all off limits.
Thanks for keeping me up to date. I wouldn’t have used female, as it sounds like something you say in a medical or legal context. Which leaves a bit of a word vacuum. On an unrelated note, I was listening to a radio programme a few years ago when a woman called in to let the world know that she refused to spell the word woman with the letters m-a-n and instead spelled it womon. She also spelled women as wimmin. The point being to disassociate women from men.
A woman is a female that is human. I don’t care for being referred to a just a female. If someone is going to refer to me as such, I would also like that person to include my higher classification (human) or my species (homo sapien) for clarity. Because I’m not a goddamned gorilla in the mist.
My graduate advisor continues to refer to me as ‘the girl’ and I’m like, dude, come on! It really bothers me, especially at conferences when I’m meeting potential employers. Urgh.
I can’t help finding it amusing that he calls you girl and you call him dude. It’s like you’re both in ‘Bill and Ted’s excellent adventure’. All that’s left is for one of you to say ‘woah’
I agree with her. Language can be very powerful… I hear “girl” tossed around in professional contexts all the time and it drives me crazy. The men are called men or gentlemen. They are VERY rarely referred to as “boys” “guys” or “dudes” whereas “girl” is almost exclusively used. As a 37 year old woman, I find it inappropriate to be called a “girl” and at best it infantilizes women. I think we have a responsibility to use language correctly and appropriately.
Same goes for all the subtle messaging out there in articles and ads – I saw an article in a magazine saying “10 reasons why He should let Her sleep in”… well that pre-supposes that it’s a man and a woman sleeping together and subtly conveys that hetero relationships are the normal ones… We are better than this people.
I was called “missy” last week by someone who was probably still wearing a training bra. I told her that I was certain she thought she was being “super friendly, but sounded patronizing, and since she did not know my name, she shouldn’t call me anything at all and just hand me the shit I just purchased”. I’m fifty years old and have not been a “missy” or a “girl” since I registered to vote on my eighteenth birthday. If someone has referred to me as a “girl”, they certainly have not done so in my presence.
My friends and I don’t have “girl’s night”; what we do would not be legal for “girls” to do. A girl cannot take care of herself and should not be allowed out in the wild unattended. My husband has a weekly “man night” with his group of friends and I can’t imagine referring to him as a “boy”; he has a PhD and a full beard.
I am from Finland and boys is used here but not quite as much as girls I feel. In English women does not sound good when its two extra letters, w and o, in front of men, but that is probably just me. I like separate words for both, however I like female and male since they don’t imply age despite the same issue. But that is just for written language here in Internet.
I don’t understand why “girl” implies inferior to “men”. Kind of suggesting that a girl (as in a young woman) is inferior to an adult man? With all due respect to Mayim, what a ridiculous thing to focus on. I don’t mind being called a girl, and most women I know refer to other women as “girls”. Sounds more informal and friendly than “women”. What are you going to call your friends “hey women!”. A non issue turned into a debate for the sake of what?
Girl does not equal “young woman”. A girl is a child and a young woman is, well, a younger woman.
How about just referring to your friends by their names? Or when greeting several at a time refer to them as “friends”?
Of course all of this is a nonissue to those who believe that informal greetings or age inappropriate monikers are cute or harmless. Call your friends whatever you want, but err on the side of caution when interacting with someone with whom you are not familiar and use their name or nothing at all.
Girl equals child but also young woman in pretty much any dictionary out there. And with people getting offended about everything nowadays, it would be better to err on the side of just not talking to anyone, apparently.