Last week, ancient pervert James Woods decided to get on his high horse and moralize about the romance at the center of Armie Hammer’s latest film, Call Me By Your Name. The film features a romance between a 20-something dude and a 17-year-old guy. The film is set in Italy, where that kind of iffy statutory situation would not be illegal (or even frowned upon, one would assume). Of course Woods was ridiculous to call out the age difference, and Armie Hammer slapped back at him, pointing out that James Woods dated teenagers when he was 60-something. Amber Tamblyn backed up Armie’s facts with a story of her own: James Woods hit on her when she was 16 years old, and he invited her to go to Las Vegas. She ended up writing an essay in Teen Vogue about all of it, and how Woods called her a liar and how he needs to come to Jesus. Now she’s written an op-ed for the New York Times called “I’m Done with Not Being Believed.”
This is less about what just happened with Woods and more about Woods Culture and how we can end it. https://t.co/oc3IRbVk8e
— Amber Tamblyn (@ambertamblyn) September 16, 2017
Actress, writer, director @ambertamblyn with an Op-Ed in response to being called a liar by actor James Woods. Read: https://t.co/hZiOTUL1K1
— NYT Opinion (@nytopinion) September 16, 2017
Some highlights from the NYT piece:
Tamblyn began the op-ed describing an incident on a television set when she was 21. A crew member made her feel unsafe by showing up at her apartment after work and “staring daggers” at her on set. She reported this to a producer, who claimed “there are two sides to every story.”
“For women in America who come forward with stories of harassment, abuse and sexual assault, there are not two sides to every story, however noble that principle might seem,” Tamblyn wrote. “Women do not get to have a side. They get to have an interrogation. Too often, they are questioned mercilessly about whether their side is legitimate. Especially if that side happens to accuse a man of stature, then that woman has to consider the scrutiny and repercussions she’ll be subjected to by sharing her side.”
In recent days, Tamblyn was called a liar by Woods, who started a recent situation on social media. The actor criticized Armie Hammer’s film Call Me By Your Name for depicting a relationship between a 24- and 17-year-old. Hammer dropped the hammer when referenced how Woods began dating a 20-year-old woman when he was 66.
“In an instant, I was reminded of a memory from when I was 16,” Tamblyn wrote of this situation. “Mr. Woods attempted to pick me and a friend up when we were at Mel’s diner in Hollywood, seeing if we wanted to go to Las Vegas with him that very night. I informed him of my age, to which he said, ‘Even better.’ I told this story publicly as a way to back up the claim that Mr. Woods was, indeed, a hypocrite. Mr. Woods called my account a lie.”
She added, “Mr. Woods’ accusation that I was lying sent me back to that day in that producer’s office, and back to all the days I’ve spent in the offices of men; of feeling unsure, uneasy, questioned and disbelieved, no matter the conversation.”
It’s weird that I had to write “I believe Amber Tamblyn” in the initial story about James Woods, isn’t it? I did that because I’ve been blogging for long enough to know that on any given forum where a woman accuses a man of anything, her motives, her story, her memories, her clothing, her alcohol consumption, her location, her words are going to be questioned by some or many people. It’s a good rule of thumb to just have a baseline: when a woman – famous or unfamous – comes forward with a story of sexual harassment, assault, rape, violence, whatever, just believe her. Take a moment and believe her before you do anything else. So, yes, I believe Amber Tamblyn. We all need to believe her, and we all need to work on believing other women who come forward.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
while I get the sentiment, I don’t believe in just blindly believing women when they accuse someone of something. there’s nothing wrong with believing it enough to actually look into it and take it seriously, but we really shouldn’t just automatically take something as absolute truth because a woman said it.
+1
Emmit Till anyone? Also, thete was a case recently here where a woman accused “two brown men” of robbing her. Guess what? She lied. So Alissa, I 100% agree with you. Take claims seriously but investigate fully as well.
I understand what you’re saying, and I agree. YES, take women seriously when they come forward. Do not dismiss them, and do not pretend that what they were wearing at the time has any relevance. Give them the benefit of the doubt — as I would hope that you would give anyone of any gender who made the same claim. But investigate, fairly and objectively, and prioritise natural justice above all —
above gender, race, social class etc.
Often, commentary around these kinds of issues DOES make it sound like the alleged wrongdoer should be convicted without trial (at least in terms of public opinion). If that’s not what people actually mean, then perhaps they should write/speak with a little more nuance. The real misogynists — the ones who will dismiss a woman and her story and defend a man first and foremost — they will latch onto this kind of black-and-white expression, and hold it up as an example of why ‘feminists’ are extreme and irrational.
How is this misogynist crap the first reply?
agreed
It’s a sad thing, but that Greer quote holds true for a large swath of women as well.
How is it mysoginistic to expect calm, rational skepticism? Skepticism does not mean doubt, by the way. I would no more believe 100% of women telling me they had been assaulted than I would 100% of men saying they’d been falsely accused. Amber isn’t wrong, but Alissa isn’t either.
i know right? her words are being twisted. in no way is she suggesting that due process and legal review should go out the window, witch hunt style. she is simply stating that all too often women are ridiculed and harassed when they step forward. they are rarely given the chance to tell their story and have justice served. the responses here are disheartening. on a side note, I’m very curious if she ever has conversations like this with her pal, blake lively, who is deeply problematic and comes off as a major rape apologist a la her work/comments regarding woody allen. no judgement of amber here or her friendship with blake, I’m just genuinely curious if they discuss this and would love to know. i think amber could teach blake a few things.
When a man tells you a “story”, do you automatically believe it? If a man told you some women was drunk and trying to get into his pants, do you believe what he said and just dismiss the woman’s “story”?
I believe anything Donald Trump says whenever he begins with ‘Believe me..’
That isn’t what I took from the post. I read it as keeping our minds open to believing a woman, so she doesn’t have to climb Mount Kilimanjaro to even get on even ground with the accused.
Perfectly said. I agree with you, @ magnoliarose, and love Amber’s essay.
‘If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.’
Desmond Tutu
“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.”
Dr Judith Herman DV and Abuse specialist
I believe Amber.
Thanks, Detritus, for sharing these wise words. I believe her. I think it took courage to tell her story knowing the Deplorables who support him would immediately trash her.
Thanks for those beautiful quotes. I greatly admire Amber writing to pay attention when girls and women report abuse. Also how brave she is to address Woods’ pathological hypocrisy and his own history of predatory behaviour.
The Emmett Till case is a perfect example, though, of how important to not let a power structure determine who gets believed. In Hollywood, old white men have power over nearly everyone, sexual abuse is rampant, and there’s a culture of not listening to women.
The power structure was reversed in the deep south in the 1950s when a woman accused Emmett Till of *flirting* with her. It wasn’t even rape that she accused him of.
When Amber Tamblyn accused James Woods of basically the same thing, it was to call out his hypocrisy, not send out a lynch mob.
The fact is that the Emmett Till case didn’t involve a woman lying about rape, so it provides absolutely no evidence that women lie about rape. It was 100% about power and racism, and no one is claiming that women are never racist.
The commonality here is that it’s terrifying for anyone to make claims against someone who has more power than they do, so when that person speaks up, let’s listen with an open mind.
False reporting of sexual assaults is between 2 and 10%, but somehow everyone thinks the woman is lying. It’s attitudes like yours that will perpetuate this myth. We all need to educate ourselves and support those that are not in power. Those that are not in power have much less to lose than those that are in power.
Source: The National Sexual Violence Resource Center
https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf
You have to take into account that “false reports” are basically always (male) police officers thinking the woman is lying or if they cant “prove” it without doubt. Acutal false accusations are mostly a myth.
Even if they were common, sexual assault is more common so we need to side with women no matter what.
y’all are cute. I didn’t say I didn’t believe Amber. I do. I didn’t say all women must be lying. and no, I don’t automatically believe a story just because a man said it, and nothing in my comment indicated that.
it’s not misogynistic to say “take claims seriously but do due diligence and don’t believe someone solely because there’s a vagina attached.” the fact that you think it is misogynistic is a problem.🙄🙄🙄
preach!
preach!
@Alissa…your comment is not only borderline misogynistic but it’s dangerous. False reporting happens but it’s rare. Many use the myth of false reporting to silence victims further and foster this system of rape culture. It’s unacceptable. Every instance should be taken seriously, every single one. If it turns out to be a lie at a later point, then the person reporting it dealt it but not silence the rest of us.
I said very clearly in my comment that all claims should be taken seriously. there’s a difference between taking it seriously and accepting it as fact.
Alissa, you are clearly not a misogynist, and wasting your time with an ideologue who doesn’t get nuance. Seriously, you already explained yourself, and some people just don’t get it.
Remember: Emmet Till? Hello. I’d like that nightmare to never happen again.
Alissa I completely understood and agree with your post. Fact is false claims are made and live irreparably destroyed by them. I never read it as you being a mysogynist and I’m not sure why saying “trust but verify” would cause anyone to think that.
When term misogyny is misused too often, as in this case, then its impact lessens. Not all women are saints and they can lie. Applying critical thought to what they have said doesn’t mean misogyny. Automatically assuming that women can do no wrong is also very wrong and infantilizes them.
Giving women the benefit of the doubt is more helpful, but we shouldn’t ignore if there is serious doubt.
Obviously in the above case, Amber was telling the truth and Woods has been nothing but a creepy asshole for years now.
Well said, Alissa (original comment), and later comments as well. Believe and respect, but not blindly. Amazing that this is described as misogynistic.
What Alissa said is true.
I believe Amber 100%, that old “has been”S behavior say’s it all…
But what i understand from Alissa’s Post is very true.
Imagine a person is spreading lies about you to destroy your reputation and in that way cover up his/her actions, so when you tell he/she did to you, nobody believes you?
It is important to ask questions, to figure out the truth, it is very often complicated, because so much people lie. I don’t mean that a Woman who is brave enough to speak should be silenced, hell no, but with the right questions on both sides, you will figure it out.
There is no such a thing like the perfect victim, and sometimes people who seem to be nice (def. not this old has been) but do horrible things.
Humans are complicated.
Hollywood is clearly a pedophile Paradise, somebody should clean up that place…..
Yep. I don’t care who it is. Someone..anyone makes an accusation against another person and my first instinct may be to believe the accuser, but then my mindset is to gather all the info and facts. There have been more than a few situations recently where a woman has lied (and few times a white woman on a man/person of color) claiming some type of assault.
It’s also happened historically with Emmet Till, Susan Smith killing her children and blaming some random Black men, Casey Anthony blaming a non existent Latino woman for kidnapping her toddler, etc…..
I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to just want to listen and gather facts.
FYI I totally believe Amber……
Absolutely. Remember what happened to Conor Oberst?
Yep. Him. The Duke Lacrosse team… There was a livery cab driver out here in NYC that was accused by a woman and had he not recorded the incident on his dash cam which showed her being belligerent and saying she was gonna claim rape if he didn’t let her ride for free or something, he would have been in serious trouble. Especially when it comes to celebs and making some type of money these days it’s crazy.
I do however believe Amber, I do believe Beverly Johnson, Janice and the lot of Cosby accusers, I believe the former People Mag editor about Trump, etc.
I’m just saying there is nothing wrong with due diligence.
I agree. Trust the allegations COULD be true, but verify. I feel the same way about the accused’s Rebuttals.
There are women who do indeed lie about these things. My husbands exwife made up stories to attempt to sway child custody disputes. She’d allege things that didn’t happen, she’d file a police report, and then she wouldn’t follow up. Cases and investigations were dropped as a result, but not without causing expense and aggravation and stress. It was her MO. (For the record, she also filed an anonymous and false child abuse case against her own adult daughter out of spite over a disagreement they had…..also investigated and dropped.). She remains a piece of work.
These situations are not commonplace but not unheard of either.
Dropped does not mean it didnt happen.
I have no stats to support this, but I would think that false accusations within the family court system would be way higher than false accusations made by by women around sexual assault. I would actually be really curious to see what the stats are.
Whenever I hear of false accusations within family court cases it makes my blood boil…because every time a parent does it, it just means that another vulnerable child is in more danger of not being believed.
@emma33. I’d be curious how many false sexual abuse charges are claimed in family courts. That was the most damaging of claims alleged by this nutcase woman.
@queenB. It didn’t happen. None of it. Not what she alleged against my husband (sexual abuse of child, physical assaults of her), not what she claimed against adult daughter (10 incidents of child abuse) and not what she claimed against sisters (elder abuse of grandpsrent) as she tried to get physical custody (and hence various support money ) of her daughter, her grandchild, and her own grandmother, Again — it was ongoing MO.
Realistically, women victims of crimes are subject to a much higher level of scrutiny, though.
My takeaway was not that Kaiser was advocating for throwing due process out the window. She was pointing out how sexism in the system prevents women from being treated fairly. To harp on the fact that some women lie about being victims is to completely miss the point of this article.
It would be interesting to parse how white women use their “believability” to oppress people of color, but I don’t think what Amber Tambyn did to James Woods really qualifies.
What is so wrong with treating women with compassion and sympathy when they come forward about sexual assault? I’d rather risk that getting taken advantage of than willfully defending a system designed to silence female victims all while claiming “I’m not a misogynist I’m just being *fair*”
I agree with you. But as you said, perhaps to people of color, who have sadly seen too many horrible instances where a White woman is easily and vehemently believed over the accused when it comes to accusing a person of color, it does strike a different chord with us.
Emmet Till was a 14 year old boy killed over a lie and his murderers went free because of a white womans claims and two white men “defending her honor”.
Many lynchings took place because of this same type of mentality. Google Scottsboro boys.
Most recently in Texas a woman accused 3 Black men of rape. There are other local instances that don’t make national news, but it happens.
That white woman who lied, is she in jail…? i hope so.
…that murderers get a free pass is unbelievable, what a racist system.
Murder is Murder, no matter if the reason for it was a lie.
@Molly
The woman at the center of the Emmet Till case was never charged and never brought to justice. She went on to lead a nice life. She’s still alive and admitted to lying and while a mother had to bury her 14 year old son and watch the killers go free, that woman never paid for her role in his death.
The woman in Texas ended up being charged for false accusations back in July, I believe.
@ JeanGrey, thank you for answering.
That’s horrible, yeez a 14 Yo innocent! Boy is murdered, and despite they know who did this and who accelerate this with a lie, nobody got in jail?
I want to vomit.
But when somebody claims that Taylor swift is a bitch, could get some penalty…..
Something is wrong with the society…
Exactly. It seems like some of these ladies and gentlemen are arguing against a point that wasn’t being made. Of course we shouldn’t just automatically lock a man up the moment a woman accuses him of a sex crime or other abuse. That’s not what this is about. It’s about how quick people are to try to discredit a woman whenever harassment/predatory behavior, a sex crime, or physical abuse is exposed. Even with women who benefit from some of the priviliges that come with being figures, you can see a little bit of a pattern, whether the issue is groping, harassment, hacked and released nude photos without a person’s consent, sexual assault, or domestic violence, the conversation always go back to:
“Well she’s thirsty/an attention-seeker/ a fame-seeker, so I don’t believe her.”
“She has negative character traits, so she’s not a victim.”
“She’s a goldigger.”
“But look at the amount of skin she’s already shown!”
“I’ll save my sympathy for women who have it worse than her.”
“She’s not some innocent little virgin. (Insert consensual sexual things woman has done).”
“Well you know blind gossip says she’s prostituting, so…”
“That poor, naive, troubled man! Clearly he’s been duped by a seductive, conniving, malignant narcissist of a female out to destroy him with lies. I feel sorry for him.”
“Seriously? All he did was ( ), it’s not like he went as far as actually raping her or something. Drama queen.”
“If this was the truth, she would have reported it right away/ as a feminist, she’s obligated to make sure he ends up in jail so other girls will be safe, but she won’t because she’s a lying oppurtunist, just being thirsty, etc.”
The list goes on and on. But the fact that an article can’t even be written about the ways women are always discredited without so many peoples’ knee-jerk responses being some variation of “But what about the Menz, Because Logic!”-combined with the not-so-thinly-veiled implication that women are illogical, hysterical histrionic harpies for having a problem with the way people jump to discredit and trash women when these crimes happen- does border on misogyny, and is kind of an example of what people are talking about.
And if there are only two people there with no one to witness it? How do you “prove” one way or another? I believe the woman.
Go to a police station, say to the cop at the desk: ‘I have been raped in the parking’
Go to a police station, say to the cop at the desk: ‘My car has been stolen in the parking’
You ll be implicitly believed a lot faster on version #2 than #1 (I simplify massively, apologies to the hordes of law enforcement officers and other kind humans who do not act this way).
That s where the problem begins.
It does not solely appear when comes the time to check different versions (which should be done impartially, you are totally right) after complaints have been duly registered. It comes at the time of overcoming a wave of inertia/reluctance/denial to get your complaint registered in the first place.
And it is more a problem of collective behavior and societal approach than a legal one.
When you re the victim of such a personal and traumatic crime and society’s first reaction is to hold you at arms’ length until something, other than your own word, ‘validates’ the existence of your pain, it s a terrible thing to do to a victim.
Just gonna leave this right here..
http://verysmartbrothas.com/men-just-dont-trust-women-and-this-is-a-problem/
Thank you, QueenB and Otakufairy.
Yep. I think the key here is not that women are “automatically believed” in this case, but that the claim is automatically TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
I believe Amber Tamblyn. And I am so impressed that she refuses to back down or slink away silently.
Am I too old at 50 to be girl-crushing on her? Keep on talking Amber, you have important things to say, and you do it articulately and passionately.
I see people commenting on Facebook saying that maybe it was the other way around, like she was hitting on him because she’s currently married to an older man. I don’t understand people at all…just as many women saying she’s a liar as there are men saying it.
Yeah I’ve seen that too. Like sure, she was after noted teen heartthrob James Woods. Yeah right.
It’s crazy that men with money, fame and power get away with this stuff so often when they should be the most vulnerable in terms of fear of getting caught. We’ve all got phones now, always at hand. If we get these guys recorded doing this shit we can work at taking them down.
lol “noted teen heartthrob.”
Teen Heartthrob….LOL….Yikes
I’m a little bit surprised that nobody say’s something about his history of dating teenager, he even bragged about it.
Only because he was parading his 19 Yo GF doesn’t mean he didn’t dated her quite earlier.
There are alot of rumors since decades, it surprises me not, HW is a paradise for Pedo’s.
White rich Men in the US get away with all, Childrape, Rape and Murder…..for such crimes it should never possible to get bail, for nobody. Even not the clown in the WH.
What GiBee don’t you want a part of that Sexy?
He has wet lips, and he licks them like a lizard. I know because I have seen this creeper in person. He oozes oily sleaze bag from his pores.
It always puzzles me how people will defend men against women. If you are a feminist you are on the side of the woman if not you are not a feminist. Its really that simple!
The feminist approach is to believe women.
Stuff that women lie about: How much wine they drink each week.
Stuff that women dont lie about: Sexual assault and Rape.
I’m feeling snarky today.
I often think they do it because it helps them virtue signal to men – I am pliable and fuckable and I will believe you above my sisters. Look at how cool and ‘logical’ I am.
I consider myself very logical. And considering data shows a woman is raped in the US every 2 minutes that’s a lot of women a day. We only get false accusations once in a blue moon and even if there was one daily, that could be seen as such a minor percentage of accounts. What surprised me to no end is that that one anomoly or case of a false accusation is all a multitude . people need to discredit the claims of victims. As a young woman, I have experienced just how prevalent sexual abuse is in our society, whereas I must imagine it’s hard for someone who has never been on the receiving end of the situation to really see what it’s like. Not that I’m defending the rape-truthers. I’m not. I think they just don’t want to believe it could be as prevalent as it is of that it could be as bad as it really is so they just reject the data and the reports. I honestly don’t get the women who just deny claims of victims straight off as well–I do think it has to be a pseudo-virtue signal too. “Im not one of those crazy feminists! I’m like you, but will never demand silly things like equality or to be taken seriously you can trust me!” I don’t think your claim is snarky, I think you’re right and it’s some weird psychological in-group sh!t.
Multitude of people
*
I hadn’t had coffee yet, sorry for typos.
“Cool Girl” syndrome
So much Yep to the above.
They are still trying to get male approval and head pats. Of all the cases of rape and even though James Woods’ reputation is no secret anywhere he goes and even though other women have come out and said they too have experienced it with him they fall back on their false sense of fairness.
Both sides! Both sides!
And the ironic part is that the women (and men) who feel the need to behave this way whenever abuse allegations come up will always condescendingly swear up and down that they’re the ‘logical’ ones for taking the “Innocent until proven guilty (as long as you’re the man being accused, that is)/ Don’t trust a ho” position when really, their position isn’t the one that’s backed up by statistics. The need to always derail conversations about abuse/predatory behavior and the way women and girls are trashed for coming forward by centering falsely accused men is very much an emotional response.
It’s a slippery slope I think. There are very few women who lie about stuff like this, but it does happen, I feel like a lot of people will take the one story where a woman caught lying about an incident and run with it to try and say that we are all liars. Look at Corinne from the bachelor in paradise show, she immediately came out saying she was a victim and living her worst nightmare, she could have ruined that guys life. He was thrown under the bus so quick.
A lot of people are accusing usher of sleeping with women and trying to give them herpes…I’m sure it’s probably true..but one of the accusers is out saying there’s a sex tape that proves it, but that was a lie. Some women can be shitty, too…and it sucks because usher will use that to say they are all lying.
I know a girl from my hometown who was raised super religious, she had a boyfriend and her parents found out she was havi sex with him, she was scared of bei in trouble and said it was rape. I knew the guy pretty well, he was thrown through the mud for almost a year until the girl finally admitted that it was completely consensual. The guy had to move away from his family to get away from the accusations. It does happen.
I believe Amber
For every guy that’s falsely accused and has to move away, there’s 20 like the guy who raped my friend in college – no consequences, had everyone he knew treat her like crap for “crying rape” until she finally moved away.
“I know a girl from my hometown who was raised super religious, she had a boyfriend and her parents found out she was having sex with him, she was scared of bei in trouble and said it was rape. I knew the guy pretty well, he was thrown through the mud for almost a year until the girl finally admitted that it was completely consensual. The guy had to move away from his family to get away from the accusations. It does happen.”
This definitely shows a horrible character defect on the part of that individual teenage girl, but it’s also argument 999 or so for why stigmatizing certain people for their sexuality is not good for society, and why MRAs/conservatives defending ‘slut’-shaming but bitching about women falsely accusing men is counterproductive.
You don’t get. Yes, we should believe a potential victim of sexual assault of any gender the same way we believe a potential victim of robbery or blackmail. But after that it’s the job of the police, prosecutors and the justice system to prove or disprove the allegations through evidence, investigation and a fair trial.
If we believe people blindly based on their gender or other attributes we descend into a world of arbitrary and madness close to that described by Orwell in 1984.
No, as rational beings endowed with a sense of fairness we can’t believe anybody “no matter what”. I can’t believe even my own mother “no matter what”. Otherwise we have to believe the accusers of “witches” in the Middle Ages who testified they had seen the accused drinking child blood and fornicating with the devil. That would be a nightmarish world to live in, for women and men alike. That’s why we developed the justice system we have today, to avoid that nightmarish arbitrary world as much as we can.
Is your name Theodora or Fedora? I assume its the latter as that fashion item and the men who wear it align with your world view.
“But after that it’s the job of the police, prosecutors and the justice system to prove or disprove the allegations through evidence, investigation and a fair trial.”
I’m not sure how ANYBODY could be against this (lookin’ at you, QueenB.)
And I wonder what the Duke lacrosse team would think about this “Stuff that women dont lie about: Sexual assault and Rape” claim.
What do you do when the very police, prosecutors, juries etc are biased themselves? That bias that makes it nearly impossible to get a fair trial (look at Brock Turner, who even found guilty only got 3 months in prison), let alone the fact that only an incredibly small percentage of sexual assaults actually are tried in a court of law. Our justice system is overwhelmingly made up of white men who see very little reason to fix their own biases.
I don’t think you get what I was saying honestly.
And this mighty justice system you speak of is not exactly perfect, how many wrongful convictions have ruined people’s lives. Rapists are never sentenced to the time they should be. Murderers and child rapists are let go, drunk drivers sentences are so unbelievably lenient. The only thing that puts you in jail forever seems to be mass murder and money crimes.
You’re saying you should believe every accuser right off the bat but than you say it’s the justice systems job to figure it out…but the courts will tell you innocent until proven guilty. Which in the case of sexual assault its almost impossible to get a Conviction
“Our justice system is overwhelmingly made up of white men who see very little reason to fix their own biases.”
And your solution is what exactly?
@QueenB: Some of the derailment here is coming from CB’s recurrent right-wing (almost typed white-ring. That wouldn’t have been entirely inappropriate either!) trolls. They always pop-in to take whatever position is more beneficial to deplorable causes, whether the subject is rape culture, reproductive rights, racism, Hillary, or Trump.
I hesitate to post this. I am not for a moment saying this is common. The disgraceful part about the legal treatment of rape is that the prosecution rate and the conviction rate are so low. And the treatment of many victims – focusing on their personal history, the clothes they were wearing, the alcohol they had drunk – is equally disgraceful. Many victims cannot even face reporting it because they feel they won’t be believed. And it’s appalling in the 21st century that so many perpetrators are walking free bcause of a system that fails victims. But
this happened. And I am a feminist.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale
I’m not sure if “just believe any woman who says something has happened” is the right thing. Unfortunately it’s not that simple.
I DO think that, when a man or woman comes forward with a story, it shouldn’t be instantly dismissed. That’s crazy. What sort of reason would she even have for making up the story she did?
And unfortunately, as the sort of behaviour that Amber encountered does happen and has happened for basically all of human history, we need to stop just hoping it will go away, and give young men and women the tools to save themselves.
Would it be great if creeps stopped creeping, threatening, harassing, assaulting, raping? Yes, but they won’t.
Would it be useful to tell young people that unfortunately, this is a part of life, and give them tools that mean that if they do end up in a bad situation, they can try to stop it or at least back themselves up later? Yes.
Record meetings and phone calls. Save disgusting text messages/emails. If your company doesn’t have an HR department or they are doing nothing, AND you’ve got proof, there’s a great story for your local news. Stand up for other women when you see something happening. Get your friends to help you.
Absolutely. We need to have this conversation with both young women AND young men. Shitty people are out there and will never go away, so it’s best to be educated about the possibilities of their actions and be prepared, both for lying men AND women.
Good for Amber for standing up and getting her story heard. I believe Amber.
Yes! And pull out your cell phone and record. Two separate times in the past six months in my neighborhood, girls (12 and 16) were being harassed/stalked by men on the way home from school. Both girls took out their phone and recorded. And police caught both (one with the help of crowdsourcing at NextDoor). Technology can be a game changer, if you have access to it.
Yup.
Look, maybe we want to think the guy harassing an underage teenage girl or the subway pervert slipping his hand under skirts are some sadsack losers who live in a basement.
But so much of the time they aren’t. They’re men with families and decent jobs.
And if other people KNEW about their harassment, because there was video evidence, and couldn’t refute it? It might shame them into stopping.
We all wish we could just get these dicks to stop. We all wish we could run out to the shop to grab some milk without being catcalled. That’s not stopping.
Nothing is going to make these men stop on their own. It’s the only way they feel powerful.
Let’s scare them for once.
If all the men tempted to do this had to also worry about their spouse/boss/future employers knowing they sexually harass 14-year-olds, things might change.
What you are advocating is victim blaming.
Hi, no.
I’m not.
What I’m not advocating is hoping this will stop or go away.
What I am saying is that it is a sad and terrible fact that people will continue to disbelieve women (and men!) who come forward to say they’ve been harassed.
Victim blaming is awful. But disbelieving victims are victims is really really sh*t.
What I am saying is that almost everyone has an evidence collecting machine on them at all times.
How many times has someone been disgusting to me, and in response I’ve stared at the floor, wishing it would stop? Or gone into a meeting with a creepy colleague and just tried to find a way to not respond to his creepiness?
What if, instead of hoping and pretending that will stop, I take the power into my hands?
I live in fear of the same things most women do. But more than that, I live in EXHAUSTION of the pervasive culture of “I can catcall that woman because she can’t stop me and it makes me feel like a big man”. What if I take that magical evidence recording device and make sure that the construction guy’s foreman/the manager of my creepy manager/the supervisor of that professor who wants to meet after class KNOWS what’s being said?
Nope. That’s turning a victim into a survivor and fighter.
There’s no shortage of information out there about what women could constantly be doing to protect themselves though (and not all of the information is accurate, realistic, or helpful, but that’s another subject). There’s less focus on the things all of us can stop or start doing in order to change the way men and boys are socialized to behave, and about how people of both sexes are socialized to respond when something like this happens to other people.
@Otaku Fairy
Exactly ^^^. This for a million days.
OF COURSE we should.
Say we take all girls and boys 6 – 12 right now, right this minute, and show them the light. Teach them about mutual respect, etc. Great. No more catcalling and harassment. Let’s pretend it’s as easy as that, for the hypothetical.
What about all the other men who exist in the world? We’ve got a lot of years before the old generations die off. You cannot begin to convince me that a man in his 40s who has been leering, ogling, harassing without any consequence for decades can be stopped with any tactics other than threats of exposure to his family, employment, community.
I’m so grateful for Amber adding her voice to this! False report of sexual assault is really low and about the same as false report for any other crime, yet rape culture has indoctrinated us all to accept the challenge to a female victim’s claim and to assume her ulterior motive.
Here is my personal experience with others not believing sexual assault:
1. My 10-year-old step sister visiting for the summer accused my step-dad of sexually abusing her. My mother refused to believe her, accused her of being an agent of evil for her own mother, and accused her of scheming to get more child support. We lost touch after that summer, but recently reconnected. She’d had a hard life, gained enormous amounts of weight, made multiple suicide attempts, and spent most of her life in therapy. Although the assault triggered all of this for her, it’s been the refusal of the other adults to believe her that has been the most devastating.
2. That same step-dad, who wasn’t stopped the first time he raped a little girl, began raping me a few years later when I was 10. Again, my mother refused to believe me, which empowered him to rape and torture me for two years without consequences. They’re still together, and too much of my life has been like my step-sister’s.
3. At work, a male colleague witnessed a male student grabbing me in a sexual manner as a means to intimidate me when I was explaining the process for addressing his violation of academic integrity. Despite my report and my male colleague’s witness statement, those in charge o f investigating the incident repeatedly referred to the incident as a “he said/she said” situation.
I know my accounts are merely anecdotal and that many readers might even doubt my stories because rape culture is that pervasive. But, I’ve worked with too many survivors at the university, and I’ve heard stories of abuse from about 75% of the woman I know, to discount my experiences as anomalies. Women who doubt other women empower men to rape and abuse at will.
Hey, that is terrible and awful beyond imagination and measure. I’m so sorry for the things that have happened and hope you’ve been able to find a support system and happiness.
GiBee, thanks for your kind words! I have a very happy and successful life. My husband and kids are awesome and so supportive.
I speak out now with a strong, unflinching voice, and I tell my story to bring the ugly truth about what can happen when we allow the he said/she said tactic to obscure the real problem of male-perpetrated sexual violence against women.
I gently ask those who feel sorry about what happened to me to instead be mad as hell that they happened–because they happen to women all the time.
AustenGirl1975, i’m sorry you have such a incapable Mother, let me say you, she knew and she let it happen, that’s a big problem in general, that some parents don’t understand, the Child comes first, then my own needs. Every good Mother knew that.
I hope you have a wonderful life, healthy and happy as much as possible.
Sadly in this rape-culture woman are part of the problem, that girl who was raped at College (drunk rape factories) her roommate said she was drunk and deserved it….
That behavior is part of the problem.
Nobody, even not the most Drunk or the meanest Girl. deserves to get Raped….Nobody!
“Women who doubt other women empower men to rape and abuse at will”
Exactly. Its more infuriating if its women but it goes for men too. Its not even a hard concept to grasp, just believe women and not men. Anyone gets that but they are refusing to do it on purpose.
“Its not even a hard concept to grasp, just believe women and not men.”
Including Juanita Brodderick?
JosieH, instead of the “but what about-ness” followed by the extremely rare exception of someone who false reported, I ask you, but what about the hundreds of millions of women worldwide who have been victims of sexual violence? Have you bothered to learn any of their names, or just one of the few women who made a false report. Do you have that much more compassion for the rare male who is the victim of a false report than for the countless women who’ve been brutalized by sexual violence?
That your first response is to highlight an extremely rare instance of false report, which by the way gets the media attention that actual sexual assault does not, is indicative of your complicity in perpetuating the false report myth, which allows rape culture to flourish.
In this conversation about believing female victims of male-perpetrated sexual violence, I urge you to consider believing them, “including” me.
“JosieH, instead of the “but what about-ness” followed by the extremely rare exception of someone who false reported, I ask you, but what about the hundreds of millions of women worldwide who have been victims of sexual violence?”
You missed the point. The problem with this “always believe women” philosophy is that the people who advocate it (like QueenB) don’t REALLY believe women never lie, they just seek to punish men – whether they’ve done anything or not. It’s misandry, plain and simple. Yet this misandrist “get the menz” attitude is conveniently shelved the second the man in question is considered an ally to the cause, like Bill Clinton. And that’s why you’ll never hear Brodderick’s name brought up by the “always believe women” brigade; her name highlights both their hypocrisy and their less-than-noble intentions. Heck, you yourself tried to change the subject when I mentioned her name, which kinda proves my point.
“Do you have that much more compassion for the rare male who is the victim of a false report than for the countless women who’ve been brutalized by sexual violence?”
I don’t think I have to choose one ahead of the other. Do you? Is it a contest?
“The problem with this “always believe women” philosophy is that the people who advocate it (like QueenB) don’t REALLY believe women never lie, they just seek to punish men – whether they’ve done anything or not.”
Generalize much?
For the record, I believe Juanita Brodderick. I mistakenly believed you were bringing up one of the few women who’ve admitted false report, as I’m not that familiar with her (I was too young then). Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, et al. do not get a pass from me.
Misandary is not a real thing. It does not exist. Just by using that MRA term you have revealed what you are.
“Misandary is not a real thing. It does not exist.”
This quote can be found in chapter one of “Things Misandrists Say.”
And I notice you’re still avoiding Brodderick. Do we believe her or not?
@JosieH
What have you so twisted about Juanita Broaddrick? Her case was investigated, and she wasn’t found to be credible because she changed her story. That isn’t a good example since it has been litigated already and became muddied because it has been highly politicized with her blessing.
She threw herself into the 2016 election; she lost all potential credibility because she has an agenda. The right’s obsession with Clinton and her alliance with them makes her claim questionable, and her character has been proven to be less than stellar.
You can dig up a dubious case but how many proven cases do you cite and what does this woman have to do with an accuser being truthful or not? There are always exceptions that can be dragged out from under a rock to make an opposing argument, but the facts and statistics aren’t on your side.
It always boggles my mind when a mother doesn’t believe her own daughter. And it seems to happen far too often. The decks are stacked against women from the beginning aren’t they? Thanks for sharing your story.
The act of giving birth does not make a woman a *mother*. There are women who do not love their children and who are afraid of losing their man.
@Pumpkin 100%! This is so true, and i would go even further, that “Mothers” know and let it happen, that’s a huge problem, it happens to often.
@AustenGirl1975: I don’t doubt your story at all. I wish you and your sister are or will be fine. I also wish those pure excuses of human beings – your mother and step dad will pay for what they did/didn’t do. They are despicable.
I’m so sorry for what both you and your sister suffered through@Austengirl!
I don’t remember much of anything about being raped. What traumatized me (and I am still working through it almost 20yrs later) was my best friend and my mother denying it ever happened.
I will *always* default to believing the accuser. I would much rather be proven wrong than inflict the same type of pain I experienced on another.
I believe Amber.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I am sorry about what happened to you and angry. The first reaction should be to believe and then work from there. A 10 year old would not make that up. It defies logic and common sense.
You are brave, and I am glad you survived and took your pain to help others.
I wish you continued healing and happiness.
When it comes to assault I err on the side of believing the victim. Statistics support the super low possibility of false claims. I always do research but chances are the victim is not lying.
It’s not believe women at all costs because we’ve seen the white woman victim black man trope too many times play out. But in this specific realm I tend to agree
Exactly.
In this realm, at this time.
Hi detritus, I’m asking this question because I’m genuinely curious, not to be a bitch or a troll. But your response to Nicole is much different than your response to Poster 1 up thread. Aren’t they both saying essentially the same thing, only Nicole says it much more diplomatically? She said believe the victim but check it out (which does infer some doubt, no?) and the first person said believe it enough to investigate, and isn’t that the same thing?
For what it’s worth, I think women should be believed. And should not have to go through what they do to prosecute their attackers, and should not have to go through watching those attackers get a slap on the wrist. If it later turns out that someone was lying (and there was case here not too long ago), then the woman should face the consequences of that.
@bluhare I’ll answer your Q. My point was that for sexual assault and rape I always err on the side of the victim. Mostly because I’ve seen the stats of false reporting and it’s 2%. Women have to be perfect victims for cops, universities, schools, and the law to take them seriously. And even then rapists get a slap on the wrist to “save their futures”.
My qualifiers was to combat the earlier comment that we should “always believe women”. I don’t think so because there are other instances where I do fact checking. Rape is one of the few areas where I don’t typically wait for research and evidence. No one willingly goes through a rape trial for false accusations. I personally have friends that did not want to report their assaults to the school because of it. Other crimes I tend to wait and see because I’ve seen certain tropes play out before.
I hope that clears it up. Rape is just one of those areas where few people are going to make up a claim to that effect.
I agree with you, Nicole. I wasn’t unclear on what you were saying at all. I think women should report assaults. However, I totally understand why they don’t. It’s awful enough without adding everything you would have to go through on top of it including the assumption that “such a nice guy” would not do something like that.
My comment to detritus was semantics I guess, because I thought you and Poster 1 were essentially saying the same thing, yet your post is being received much more positively than the first one.
Gotcha Blu. I’ll have to go back and look because I mostly skimmed the comments before posting.
I think you have a good take on it @Nicole. The situations that actually call for a “neutral” take are few and far between. For instances I am VERY wary of accusations of abuse (about the wife or the child) made in the course of a bitter and acrimonious divorce. Sadly in my field I’ve learned that the depths people will sink to in such times are the lowest of the low. Does that mean it’s always or even frequently a lie? No! Absolutely not ( and the alleged victims must always be made safe while matters are investigated). But the risk is higher. Looking honestly at the circumstances is key.
So looking honestly at the circumstances, what in the world would make people subscribe some motivation to a women to make up this James Woods story? What glorious advantage would this give her? I cannot find any reason to disbelieve her. Sometimes I see how people can disbelieve (even when I don’t). I can see the doubts. Other times ( like here)? 🙄 The hoops some people will jump through to disbelieve a woman; it’s disgusting.
I always err on the side on believing the victims of sexual assault…always!!! Rape is traumatic, it’s hell on Earth, a soul crushing event than can destroy you and trust me, when you’re not believed, the pain is intensified.
The MAJORITY of women are telling the truth when they make these kinds of accusations, the liars are in the MINORITY. Yes, it happens, but far less than sexual assault occurs.
James Woods is a walking bag of puke and there is plenty of evidence to show that this incident no doubt happened.
Although I can’t say I agree with the kumbaya Hillary love in the article (considering the hypocrisy of Hillary attacking her husband’s many accusers – of which I am related to one and know her account to be absolutely true) I will say 90% of what Amber says resonates. We are accustomed in this culture – even as women- to immediately question the female accuser and question motives, dress, looks, reaction, you name it. We rarely simply take the account as truth and investigate as such – particularly if the man/boy is of stature or “known to be a good guy”. I’ve known many “good guys” who were nothing of the sort. Until we can change the mind of the collective women, we can never hope to really influence the minds of men. This coming from a conservative voter (which doesn’t mean Trump, ugh).
Great post, Michelle. In the past priests and other religious clergy used to get away with rape because their standing in the community made them above reproach. Sometimes I wonder who their modern day equivalents are in terms of having a public image that puts them above reproach. It sickens me to think about how many rapists would have uttered the words ‘Who’s going to take your word over mine?’
I agree that we should believe women before we do anything else, Kaiser. Why? Because all women have been victims of sexual assault/harassment/etc. I recently had this conversation with a male friend and he didn’t believe me. I told him “show me a woman who says she’s never been victimized and I’ll show you a liar.” So, he tested this and started asking, including his wife, and came back to me with his jaw on the floor. “How is it that I am 40 years old and never knew it was this pervasive?” he asked. So we had a longer conversation about it. And I told him the problem is that people DON’T talk about it. But we should. Everybody. FYI my two tween sons were privy to this convo and I am not sorry. I discussed it further with them at home.
Good mothering of sons Juls. I am aware of how my boys treat their sisters and how my husband relates to both. I don’t want to perpetuate the women are a weak myth and need a strong man to help them, but I want my sons to understand if a girl or woman needs help to assist them. Fostering closeness and love and respect between them I hope will build a good foundation to be good people and not participate in misogyny or complicity.
I was drugged and raped by two teenage boys when I was 16. Didn’t tell a soul until I was 32. Never named my rapists. I can’t tell you how many times through those 16 years that a friend of mine lied about sexual assaults and rapes because she regretted sexual experiences she had. She even asked me to lie under oath for her to extort money from men for sexual harassment. I refused. We are no longer friends. It is people like her that make it impossible to believe every woman that comes forward. My blood would burn every time she would lie and would push me further to hide inside myself about my rapes. I don’t know what the solution is but until people (not just women) stop lying about sexual assault, we can’t believe 100% of the people that claim it happened to them just because they say it happened.
I believe Amber. This started from James Woods tweeting and calling her a liar, trying to silence her. She’s using her power and privilege to clap back at not only him, but the misogynistic culture she’s experienced. I’m positive she’s not the only actress that has encountered what she’s described in her NYT piece but how many are willing to call anyone out on it? This is pretty awesome.
Perhaps it would be helpful to consider the false equivalency at the heart of some people’s comments here: the “would you believe a man blindly” argument ignores an enormous amount of statistical evidence and social science study that demonstrates a pattern of sexual predation by men toward women and children going on since…forever? (Thanks, patriarchy!) The statistical chance of the obverse–being sexually preyed upon by a woman–is still slim (though has increased somewhat in recent decades). It’s not a binary. I think the point, given the statistical likelihood of a woman or child telling the truth about their experience of being assaulted or harassed, is to give them the clear benefit of the doubt first. Not blindly. But as our default starting position culturally. Because, again, statistically, it is unusual for women and children to make false claims, given what people who report are frequently put through when doing so. I think looking to quantifiable, legitimate studies on these issues is more useful than cherry picking our own experiences as anecdotal “proof,” given that most anecdotal evidence simply reinforces human beings’ very personal and idiosyncratic emotional reactions to given situations (also long demonstrated by social science study). This statistical info to which I refer is a Google search away, BTW. I have found it very helpful to approach these difficult issues from this position. Which is to say, I don’t mean to be unkind or shaming. I genuinely hope this helps people thinking through these issues.
That the longtime pedo perv James Woods calls out any questionable age difference between film lovers is rich! Really shows you how those kind of predators have zero shame, and far too much power (also see: Sandusky). Kind of surprised the NYT published her piece, but glad they did.
I hope that “has been” Woods bloke is getting a major backlash who will last until he is 6 feet under.
Her grandstanding on this thing is downright Dunham-esque.
Your complete lack of empathy toward a survivor of sexual violence is Woods-esque.
When this conversation comes up, why do so many people prioritize a focus on false report or bashing the woman? Data show that incidences of male-perpetrated sexual violence against women far, far, far exceed incidences of false report. I just don’t get why some posters are being criticized today for standing up for women and advocating that we believe them. If my mother had believed my step-sister, I wouldn’t have been raped by her husband. Period.
Why does someone telling her story and identifying a predator equate to grandstanding? Having lived through sexual violence, I will never cease discussing it in graphic detail–both the rape and torture and my years for mental health struggles. It’s a real experience, and your denial or minimizing of what women endure or calling us out for speaking against the men who violated us or the system that enables it just perpetuates the pain.
I believe Amber.
JosieH, folk like you are a big part of the problem.
They’re not remotely the same.
This is so important, now more than ever. Betsy DeVos is looking at revising all Obama’s policies on sexual assaults on campuses, because they are unfair to the accuser.
yep, you read that right. actually, she’s not looking at it, she’s said she is doing it. Because they are unfair to the ACCUSER.
Obama stepped up to protect victims and this fucking fuck fuck of an administration says it’s NOT FAIR!
When I read that, my first thought was that the sons of people she knows (or is related to) are being accused of sexual assault and were pushing for this. Blech.
If they are unfair to the accuser (i.e. the alleged victim), why would you be against changes?
I can’t stand that stupid dolt. She is an idiot pure and simple. Talk about living in la la land and playing dilettante with our educational system. She and her war criminal brother need to slither back to the Dark Ages that created them.
I am all for healthy skepticism in everything. But this whataboutism regarding women and sexual assault just makes women not want to come forward. All crimes receive investigation before anyone is punished. But with women and sexual assault, many crimes don’t get investigated cause whataboutism has predisposed law enforcement to be unnaturally skeptical of women’s claims. Female sex crime victims experience more skepticism than any other victims. People can always lie, so why do we think the odds of lying are higher with female sex crime claims?
Rapunzel, thank you! It really is as simple as this.
There is a huge difference between making a point about how HISTORICALLY and in the present day women do not get to have a legitimate/believed side in their stories of reporting sexual abuse and assault, and saying believe every woman no matter what.
When I read the Op-Ed in the NYT yesterday, I breathed the most tremendous sigh of relief. She put words to my life experience of women being told there are two sides to every story, when in reality that is rubbish. Let me say that again. In reality women do not get a side because they are not believed, their motives are questioned, or they are just too damn ashamed and terrified to speak up (Hi, my name is Hailey and I reported the theft in my apartment but was too ashamed and terrified to report the assault, true f87king story).
I am not mad at anyone who is holding on to the idea that, “wait, no there are really two sides to every story”. But I say this to all the women who seem to understand that our side is rarely heard or legitimized, “We all need to join the choir and sing till we are red in the face.”
There are two very different things: the court of public opinion and a court of law. The legal system has come a long way to assisting rape victims. There are now rape shield laws in most states prohibiting a victims sexual history from being introduced into evidence. It is factually inaccurate to state it is almost impossible to get a conviction for sexual assault. Settlements and convictions happen all the time. I’m not sure where these statements are coming from. It is however true that only a fraction of assaults are reported and or prosecuted. The system for campus justice is quite different I would note than a court of law. Courts of law are bound by constitutional requirements protecting the rights of the accused to due process. I think a lot of us get frustrated with the court of public opinion which is valid, but in the actual criminal justice system, protection of rape victims has greatly improved. It isn’t perfect of course- but it is better. And the fact that the crimes are largely unreported is I think the main issue.
Good for Amber, saying anything at all about an nth of what could be revealed in the way women are treated by Hollywood. I would like to see a whole group of successful women actresses, so much in the public eye, many who tout feminism and “women’s rights”, to come forward and tell their stories. They don’t have to name names, just tell it like it is. I’m sure the thought of losing a lucrative career is frightening, which is why there has to be a group (safety in numbers). Under a light of truth, perhaps getting paid less than men will turn around, because perhaps the men in power won’t have all the power anymore. More importantly, perhaps the cases of sexual coercion, child abuse, harassment and rape in Hollywood, will abate a notch. Even when exposed, the male actors, directors, producers, etc., are forever protected by the studios. Yes, the end of abusing women has to stop worldwide, but, as we’ve seen in the past, what happens in Hollywood can have resonating effects in the general populace. And the fire has to be lit somewhere. Marching in D.C. is a fizzle. And all this dialogue is great, but it’s time to move the elephant’s foot off the mouse’s tail.
Very true. The stories are hair-raising and incredibly misogynistic, but the fear of retribution makes the cost of speaking up too dear for many women to risk.
The problem with victims not being believed is the burden of proof. I definitely believe all accusations should be taken seriously and a lot of the resistance is a sign of mysogynistic victim blaming and that has to change.
I don’t think that those who express concern over “believe the woman not the man” are denying any of the above. They are reacting to what sounds like a fundamental flip of “guilty until proven innocent” which frankly on current statistics is still more likely to get it right than not. The number of false accusations are remote. But I guess the question for people who take the most extreme position on this of “guilty until proven innocent”, what number of false convictions can be tolerated?
Edit to add: I’m talking about criminal charges and the most extreme position of “accept the woman’s statement as fact, end of story.”
I believe Amber confidently. And I do believe “take the woman’s accusations seriously and don’t ask victim blaming questions” is the right approach even in criminal investigations.
I believe Amber 100%
Also when I was in highschool I had two sketchy friends who I know for a fact falsely accused boys of sexual assault
One I personally think was for attention, the other was because she got found out having sex and told that to her parents to get out of trouble.
I know they lied because they told me they lied.
So where I do very much believe the woman first, I have the actions of the two girls I knew in the back of my mind.
I believe Amber.
I don’t know who she is but you go girl. Her writing is flawless.
While normally I am all for equal rights, in this case I have thoughts otherwise.
My youngest stepson and a friends son were both separately accused of rape. In my stepsons case, the girl backed down and admitted she had lied when pressured by the parents. In my friend’s case, her son was almost dragged to court, except the legal fees involved made her admit that she too had made the whole thing up. That is really, really, disgustingly low – to try and ruin someone like that. So, I’m sorry, but I’m not automatically believing either party.