Catherine Deneuve & 100 Frenchwomen think #MeToo will lead to the end of flirting

An evening honouring Louis Vuitton and Ghesquiere

On January 5th, the New York Times published an op-ed called “Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.” It was written by a woman named Daphne Merkin, who is one of those Not-Those-Kinds-Of-Feminists who feels the need to publicly lament the strawman argument that #MeToo will lead to the end of flirting. It’s a dumb, bullsh-t argument. Men and women will still flirt, they’ll still make passes at each other, they’ll still meet each other via Tindr or whatever. Sex will still happen, and some of it will even be enjoyable. The conflation of “sexual predators need to be called out publicly” and “this will be the end of casual flirting” is a flatly dumb argument. It goes to consent, and the need to make our society in Consent Culture instead of Rape Culture. Every single person, male and female, knows there’s a difference between a coworker making a sloppy, drunk pass at you at a Christmas party versus Matt Lauer using his rape button to trap unconsenting coworkers into his locked office.

But in France, apparently this whole #MoiToo thing is a grave concern because flirtation is life over there, and why should victims of assault and rape come forward and speak publicly when it might mean that a few coworkers will think twice about inviting an intern up their hotel room. Or something.

A collective of about 100 women has signed an open letter published in Le Monde today rejecting what it sees as a new puritanism in the wake of the sexual harassment and assault scandals. “Rape is a crime,” the women write. “Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.” Lamenting that the #MeToo campaign has led to “expeditious justice” for men who “may have touched a knee, tried to steal a kiss” or “spoken of ‘intimate’ things during a professional dinner,” the women further say they “defend a freedom to importune, which is indispensable to sexual freedom.”

Among the signatories, who include a number of doctors, sex experts, journalists and artists, the most famous name is Catherine Deneuve. Art critic and “The Sexual Life Of Catherine M” author Catherine Millet is also there. The women write that “as a result of the Weinstein affair there has been a legitimate raising of awareness of sexual violence against women,” notably in the workplace. “This was necessary,” they say. “But this liberation of speech is turning on itself: People are being intimidated to speak in the right way or to stay silent on what makes them angry. Those who refuse to comply with such injunctions are looked upon as traitors, accomplices!”

The #MeToo campaign, the group says, has led to “denunciations and public accusations of people who, without giving them the possibility of responding or defending themselves, have been placed on exactly the same level as sex offenders. This expeditious justice already has its victims, men sanctioned in their job functions, forced to resign, etc, while their only wrong is to have touched a knee, tried to steal a kiss, spoken of ‘intimate’ things during a professional dinner or to have sent sexually suggestive messages to a woman whose attraction was not reciprocal.”

This has led to a “fever to send the ‘pigs’ to the slaughter,” which the opinion piece contends is “far from helping women to empower themselves,” and rather “serves the interests of the enemies of sexual freedom.”

[From Page Six]

Among their other grievances, they are worried that all of this Me-Tooing will lead to “a hatred of men” because wouldn’t that be the real crime? They’re also bitching about the censorship of…Roman Polanski, because how many women have come forward now to say that he abused, assaulted or raped them when they were children? Here’s the part where I should play devil’s advocate and say that maybe, buried deep within this manifesto, they have some semblance of a decent point. But they don’t. Literally no one is saying “I hate it when I’m at a bar and a guy offers to buy me a drink, #metoo.” No one is saying that women have to assume the role of victim – women are saying they were victimized and traumatized by certain men, and they’ve only just recently felt like the world was ready to listen to them. This feels like a female-led backlash, going from “Believe women” to “Women need to shut up so they don’t alienate all of the alpha he-men who want to flirt with them.”

70th annual Cannes Film Festival

Photos courtesy of WENN.

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239 Responses to “Catherine Deneuve & 100 Frenchwomen think #MeToo will lead to the end of flirting”

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  1. Nicole says:

    Ugh France come get your people. We have enough idiots to deal with.
    Stop. With. The. Illogical. Statements. And. Conflating. Issues.

    • Babs says:

      La honte. But it was to be expected, honestly. After the DSK case and what was said in France then, I don’t have any kind of hope for the so-called intelligentsia. Consternant.

      • Pumpkin (formely soup, pie) says:

        DSK, the guy who worked at the World Bank or something like that? What did they say in France when the issue came out?

      • Léna says:

        @Pumpkin, that he was scammed, what a great politician he was, how he was supposed to be our next president, how even with his “flaws” he would have been better than Hollande

      • Pumpkin (formely soup, pie) says:

        @Léna, thanks. That’s effing mindblowing. He’s a effing pervert but those reactions are more effing. Was he convicted, btw?

      • hogtowngooner says:

        The charges were dropped after investigators found evidence of the maid conspiring with others to blackmail DSK by claiming he sexually assaulted her. He’s definitely a pig, but in that specific case, he was innocent.

      • Pumpkin (formally soup, pie) says:

        @hogtowngooner: thanks a lot.

        It’s quite weird, I do remember there was a Law and Order episode totally matching that maid “incident”.
        But no, he’s not a pig. Pigs don’t do that to women. He is a MAN, of many men.

        I HAVE TO SHARE THIS: there was this post on IG a few months ago, that said “why isn’t no rape one of the 10 commandments”

    • Jellybean says:

      I would say that #nameyourpig doesn’t help matters. #Metoo is so much better.

    • SilverUnicorn says:

      Yep.

      I don’t get it either.

      It seems like a lot of women are so thirsty to get a partner that they are frightened nobody will ask them out after this #metoo ‘revolution’.
      We are chasing the predators out in the open; it’s not about flirting, dumb celebs should stop conflating the two!

      And honestly, ladies: get some self-esteem. Because if you are thrilled to be only dated by men who are sexting you vulgar stuff without having met you first… well it could not lead to what you think….

      What about sticking to flowers and poetry to show willingness to date, it’s not necessary to jump on people to show you like them!
      (Years ago, I regretted not to have gone out with a nice guy who improvised a poem dedicated to me in a post-office in USA… silly young me).

    • velourazure says:

      Misogyny must be so internalized in France that it’s in women’s DNA at this point.

    • Marla says:

      That is just stupid! There is a big difference between a smile, a glance, batting of the eyes, flip of the hair, etc and shoving someone up against the wall, shoving your tongue down their throat or putting your hand up their private parts, let alone drugging, raping etc… sheesh people! it is not rocket surgery! common decency dictates proper behavior… what a ridiculous thing to say! ugh!!!

    • Mala says:

      There was no evidence that the maid lied, they have finally made an “arrangement” in court and he walked free.
      DSK has been accused of other rapes and sexual agressions in France. A lot of women refused to press charge, or too late for french law, so he’s still free (and powerful).

    • Book says:

      Please don’t blame this on France. Most of the women who signed this paper belong to right-wing, traditionalist Catholic, homophobic organisations.

      It’s like saying that (white) women who supported Roy Moore represent all American women and the US in general.

  2. V4Real says:

    Oh please there’s a difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment. I guess she also believes a man won’t be able to compliment women as well.

    • SoulSPA says:

      V4Real yes I agree re: the difference you’ve mentioned. Some women as well as some men enjoy flirting. Consent and comfort are important, and reading clues in regards to acceptance of a certain behaviour from both parties. If it weren’t for some flirting, most couples would not exist!
      Also, the acceptable threshold as to which a certain behaviour could be considered sexual harassment can be different from different persons. I am a woman so I speak as a woman: some men should forget or ease down on their inherent entitlement as males and hunters and “boy are boys” and be more sensitive to women’s comfort. Unfortunately, there are too many systemic and cultural issues regarding gender relations.

      • Lilian says:

        I agree. Sometimes we second guess ourselves even after a man has made us feel uncomfortable. We don’t need other people doing it to.
        The other day I put out an ad to sell something. A week later I got a strange whatsapp that just said “hi, how are you. “. I ignored it. A few hours later a man calls me. I politely explain to him that the item is sold. He says well I whatsapped u earlier and you didn’t reply. I apologized and explained to him that I didn’t respond because I wasn’t sure who it was. I thanked him and said good. He goes wait wait can we chat. I said about what. He says get to know each other. I said we have already chatted, I explained the item is sold. Goodbye. He says to me, Oh come on I just want to get to know you better. I said no and hung up as he started to speak again. I thought oh damn have I jut been rude and overreacted. I look at my phone a few hours later and he had whatsapp me to ask if I was single or married and we could work something out. I blocked him.

        This was over the phone. What if we were face to face??

      • SoulSPA says:

        @Lilian, IMHO you did not overreact. He got your number, I understand, from an ad. You were polite to him regarding the issue of selling that thing. He should have not contacted you afterward. End of story. My opinion is that he tried his luck with a stranger. No opportunity in his life to chat up or be with a woman. Believe me, there are men and teenage boys there like that. Or they do it because they enjoy the hunt. A close friend of mine got a text message a few minutes after a guy delivered a fridge. I was there to help her install it. It was super complimentary but flirty and we laughed about that. She didn’t respond and he never wrote back from what I know. But she knew the company and could have complained. Random people cannot be controlled so just blocking his number was the right thing to do.
        Now I remember Jemima Khan’s story with the harassment by an uber driver. DM covered it. Scary world, and this is one story we know of. My only “problems” have been with a couple of guys that pestered me with messages even if I was not interested. They gave up eventually.

      • SilverUnicorn says:

        @Lilian

        You didn’t overreact. I routinely block a few accounts on Instagram and Twitter because I know what’s coming after the ‘how are you?’ Or ‘you look awesome in your profile pic’.
        I always had ‘MARRIED’ in capital letters in my bios.
        Some men really don’t learn!

      • INeedANap says:

        Your point about men needing to be more aware of women’s comfort hits home. We as women are constantly adjusting our selves and our lives for men: how we dress, how we act, what we say, it’s to either diminish their rage or heighten their attraction. And they never stop and wonder how we are feeling.

      • Kelly says:

        I think a huge part of the problem is so many men are taught that they should be persistent and that’s where it crosses the line from harmless flirting to harassment. I vividly remember in college during a summer course a guy asked me out. I politely told him I was flattered but not interested. Somehow he hacked into the school’s system, registered for all the same classes as me the next semester, and continued to ask me out. He created multiple email addresses and AIM usernames to continue contacting me after I asked him to quit and then blocked him. He even went so far as to pose as my neighbor to try and talk to me, which meant he got my address without my permission. I was terrified, and he only quit when a male friend of mine in the same major walked me to all of my classes for a month straight. And that’s a common story for a lot of women, whether it’s a work colleague continually pushing the envelope or some random stranger following a woman down the street after she ignored his order to smile. Casual, mutual flirting won’t go away, but the other stuff needs to.

      • SilverUnicorn says:

        Kelly, you nailed it with your first sentence!

      • Megan says:

        As I recently explained to a male friend, there is a huge difference between asking a woman on a date, “I have theater tickets this Thursday, would you like to join me?” and sexually harassing a woman under the pretext of asking her on a date, “hey, baby, why won’t you go out with me? You know you want it.”

      • Lensblury says:

        @SoulSPA
        I have a nice cab story to share. My then-bf and I shared a taxi from one district to another, with slightly different destinations. He gets out first, kisses me on the lips, says, “bye, babe, see you later”, and leaves. Once I arrive at my stop, the driver won’t give me my change, but instead asks what I was doing for the coming 1.5hrs because he could “take the time off to please me”. I was like, “NO. WTF, man? Didn’t you just drop off my bf a few minutes ago? Gimme my money now.” And it wasn’t what I was wearing, of course. I was wearing worn-out jeans, a worn-out long-sleeve with one or two holes, I was sweaty and my hair was a mess. Anyway. I don’t need that “flirting”. One day later a dude selling kebabs didn’t want to give me my kebab. He smiled and offered it to me, then pulled back his arm. Did that twice, and I exploded. He tried to pull the same funny joke with my change, out of insecurity because I had already killed him with my additional death stare. That was about the time when I changed my attitude and now I am so self-confident that I will tell anyone off if they make me angry enough. My fuse has gotten very short. I don’t care. I have still kept my ability to be kind and nice, as long as people don’t demand anything from me just because they are used to the fact that they can insist on me giving them something I don’t necessarily want to give. I feel better than ever regarding my comebacks.

    • Katie says:

      Sexual harrassment occurs in the WORKPLACE. Flirtation at work ABSOLUTELY inappropriate. It creates power play, discomfort, feeling your career will be affected by how you react to it. Repetitive sexual harrassment is a fireable offense b cause it creates a hostile work environment. Sexual ABUSE, on the other hand can occur anywhere. It is unlawful treatment of another person in a sexual manner and the context does not matter. Flirtation is not sexual abuse. The idea that men need fear flirtation (outside of the workplace/work relationships) is ridiculous… I haven’t seen a single example of this in the #metoo movement.

    • Nello says:

      Exactly. And I don’t recall any men being called out for “flirting”. Unless Deneuve considers whipping one’s wang out at a business meeting flirting.

    • Dr. Mrs. The Monarch says:

      I agree. Society is in a sad, sad state when people don’t seem to know the difference between being interested in a person/wanting to get to know them more intimately and demanding that strangers/acquaintances/colleagues have sex with them. What will future anthropologists think of us? “The male signified his interest in the female by sending her photos of his genitals. The female was not impressed by his display, as she had seen too many other genitals that week.”

    • toDaze says:

      I read a post from a guy friend that said it should all be “sadie hawkins” forever forward to dispel any #meToo doubt. That -same guy- has been passively asking me to ask him out for a few months. I do not ask men out. I don’t want a sexual harasser, but I don’t want t be the aggressor either. Ugh. Men need to be chivalrous, just not PREDATORY. How hard is this concept??

  3. Sara says:

    we are so angry amd pissed off at this stupid op ed here. This has already emboldened sexual predators. We French really need to get our shizz together. My sister who is a survivor just called me up to yell.

    • Truthful says:

      Totally people are fuming over this here in France, and Catherine Deneuve is mocked badly … this is her third anti-feminist dumbass jibe in the row since fall: she defended Polanski (saying that she is shocked and outraged by his treatment) , she said join an other show that she was appalled by the # metro movment…. and was schooled by a MALE rap artist (a male rap artist fCS!!)

      and then this!

      She is just a stupid cow who got lucky at life, people are super angry…like really mad here!

      Shut up stupid lady, take a seat … and stop the botox its getting on your brain

      signed: a super mega angry french

    • Deets says:

      These are their generation’s ‘cool girls’.
      There is always a subset of women more concerned with remaining appealing to men at large than they are with suooorting their sisters.

      • Lilith says:

        This.

      • Midigo says:

        +1000

      • Talie says:

        You nailed it. This is very generational…these women are wrapped up in maintaining their desirability, especially as they age. Interestingly, her peer, Isabelle Huppert was at the Globes and very supportive of this movement.

      • Gorgonia says:

        This is not generational. Unfortunely, there is plenty of young women thinking they are lost without a man, and so worried to be appealing to men, which think the same as Deneuve.

      • toDaze says:

        Yep, its the cool girl complex at any age. They are desperate to be liked and thrive on ANY attention.

    • Aren says:

      I’m quite relieved to hear she’s not getting a pass in her country. It seemed to me that many European males are already using her to say “See, you’re all wrong and overreacting, she’s female and is on our side”.
      It’s horrible how much damage some females can do to the equal rights movement.

      • Sophia's Side eye says:

        To that I would say, fine go flirt with her then! This is such a betrayal to other women.

    • Godwina says:

      Thanks for pointing that out–but it’s frustrating it needs to be said that OF COURSE there is an outcry against CD’s crap in France, and that there were tons of French women (and men) publicly revolted by DSK as well, and Polanski and etc.

    • SilverUnicorn says:

      Don’t worry, they have the same problem in Italy…. :-/

    • The Other Katherine says:

      Glad to hear lots of French women are not standing for this nonsense. We’re about to have a Katie Roiphe article come out in Harper’s March issue, so I expect it’ll be our turn in the U.S. to deal with similar b.s. real soon now. Have also been waiting to see what dumb thing Camille Paglia will have to say.

  4. Sara says:

    Also important point: many of these women have criticized muslim sexism and how the headscarf limits women in public spaces so there’s also a super racist thing going on here.

    • Islam is not a race. Maybe you mean bigotry/religious intolerance/xenophobia?

      • Truthful says:

        In France criticizing Islam is a just ( a slightly) veil criticism of North Africans… bizarrely people have very much less problem with Islam from other places…

      • Sara says:

        No I meant racism since most people in France associate Islam with North Africa.

      • Ann says:

        The headscarf isn’t “religion”; it is misogyny.

      • Appleminis says:

        Well, here, in France, it’s considered as racists as those people thinks that arabes = muslims = terrorists. They mix everything and don’t do the difference between a religion and the people. That’s why we have sooooo many arugments over the veil and if women can wear them or not.

        It’s a thing you very often hear in the media here like “The Arabs do this , the Arabs do that etc”.

      • Truthful/Sara
        Thank you for the breakdown.

        Ann
        What? Many women choose to wear their headscarves. It’s only misogynistic when it’s misogynistic.

      • Jay says:

        Islam is not a race but it sure as heck is racialized. When I say Muslim you picture a brown person, not a blonde haired blue eyed white person (even though there are plenty of Muslims who look like that, even second and third generation Muslims who are white!)

        Her use of racism to describe that attitude was not precise, but it was appropriate. And she was absolutely right.

      • LAK says:

        In truth it’s misogyny, but it’s been turned into a religious/ cultural necessity and so to point out it’s misogyny is to be called a racist or a misogynist yourself.

      • LAK
        I agree but at what point do we accept that the origins of misogynistic practices have been forgotten by a lot of women and the result is that they truly are making their own decisions. For example, fathers escorted their daughters down the aisle because women were their legal property but I can’t condemn or even try to educate a women who chooses to observe that custom just because she wants her father to walk her down the aisle today. I feel so uncomfortable saying that headscarves are misogynistic. I don’t feel I have the right to invalidate the chouce of so many of my Muslim sisters. I guess it’s complicated.

      • anna says:

        LAK, agree. there is a small reform mosque in berlin, founded by a muslim woman who refuses to wear a headscarf and refuses to basically sit in the basement while the men pray in the nice room. so she did the logical thing and in her mosque, women and men pray together and there’s no need to cover your head. she and the mosque now need 24 hour security because of the hundreds of death threats she gets every month. this woman shows exactly what gender separation and the imperative to cover up are about: submission. and if a woman doesn’t submit, her life will be threatened.

      • Whoopsy Daisy says:

        There are white Muslims who go beyond second or third generation, especially in Europe – Bosnia being one of the examples. Or Turkey.

      • LAK says:

        Enough Already : and yet more than 1000yrs of indoctrinated misogyny has finally been cast off by feminists.

        There remain aspects of misogyny that still require fighting, but no one says women must remain chattels because tradition /culture of more than 1000yrs says so and that was the norm.

        I have no truck for women who are walked down the aisle by their fathers because that is internalised misogyny indoctrinated from birth and reinforced by society. It’s the visual re-enactment of the idea that women are chattel. Not cute or clever no matter the plausible reasons used to justify it.

        The only people who should and do wear head scarves are dessert people who do it for necessity in order to survive the harsh desert environment they live in. In that situation, men also wear headscarves and cover their eyes. A practical solution rather than an indoctrinated collusion to make women ashamed of their bodies. That indoctrination starts at birth such that when they say they are making a choice as adults, they aren’t making a free choice. They are making a choice of an already indoctrinated idea.

        And actually men should be offended when confronted by these covered figures because they are an outward expression of the idea that men are feral sexual beings who can’t control themselves if they see uncovered women.

        And if it’s a question of religious piety, I don’t look at nuns or priests and think they are immodest because I can see their arms, legs, face and hair.

        We abuse people by accepting cultural practices that are actually harmful in the name of multi-culturalism. Ditto misogynist ideas for similar reasons.

        Des: I don’t care the race or culture of the misogyny. I will always call it out regardless. Women come in all races and universally suffer misogyny. Let’s not hide behind the fear of being seen as racists or insensitive to stop the misogyny. Afterall, it’s the silence of good, well meaning people that enables evil to flourish.

      • Ennie says:

        I agree with @LAK.
        In my culture, decades ago, soem women used to cover their heads to worship, men took of hats, now noone cover their heads and depending on the weather and geography, you can go ss you like, wearing shorts, tank tops, etc. To church.And noone will tell you anything.
        My aunt is a catholic nun. So many people think of the typical nun outfit, t
        But that usually belongs to thise who want to live in an enclosed community. They are rare nowadays. Most nuns I know dress normally. Their concesions to their compromise of faith are usually keeping hair short, no revesling clothing, usually wearing skirts. They usually work among others, and sime even live bu themselves, working regular jobs and not belonging to any particular community.
        This aunt who is elderly (over 80) and lives in Brasil tells us abot how some of the younger ones wear some makeup and she is not scandalized at all.
        I cannot stand that tradition or culture dictates that we women have to do this and that, even making excuses for the men. I think that if in a country, not covering the head, or all is punishable by law, it raises an alarm. Why follow that? I saw a pic of a little girl covering her hair. Why is that? Some aspects of these laws really hurt the cause of gender equality (like some in our hemisphere) it makes me sad to see that, and I hope it changes, especially for those non muslim women eho marry into that culture.
        If there were not a current of raising extremism on every side going on, if there were no violence, it would be less of a deal.
        I read comments that say let them be, it’s their country. Yes, interference is bad, but what about minorities, gay people, etc.

        It’s like those who don’t want gay marriage, making excuses for why not accepting it. Hello? We are equal.
        Sorry for a mess of a post my ideas are all over. I just despise extremism. I see some of this voluntary covering as a regression to a stage that was well in the past already, now with another twist.

      • LAK
        So why should modern women wear makeup or high heels or keep their father’s surname?
        I know I sound argumentative but I believe feminism is about choice. I am listening, however. I know your heritage is Afro-Arabic so I am listening and trying to learn.

      • A.Key says:

        @LAK

        YES YES YES.

        FINALLY someone gets it right.

        And of course women are allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies meaning they can cover themselves up if they want to, who cares. But don’t give me that crap that the religious indoctrination of covering your head and face isn’t misogynistic because it is.

        But you are free to adhere to that or not, of course, it’s your choice. Just like it’s your choice to wear short skirts and show your boobs, it’s your choice to cover yourself up to the point only your eyes are left open.

        I’m all for leaving women with a choice, but I can’t stand the whole denial/delusion of these women about where those things that they are choosing originally come from.

      • ichsi says:

        @LAK *blows kisses in your direction*

      • Otaku Fairy says:

        I’m with everyone who fell on the side of choice. Clothing- like anything else that relates to what women do with their bodies- is not misogyny. The actual misogyny is the coercion, threatening, manipulation, and sometimes force that’s put into getting a woman to yield to that expectation. That’s what needs to be attacked, not the particular thing women are doing. One of the biggest weaknesses of feminism is the movement’s tendency to replace trying to ‘require’ a woman to do something with her body with trying to ‘prohibit’ women from ever being able to make that decision with her body, and then calling that attempt at prohibition ‘feminism’. It’s not. They’re both two sides of the patriarchal coercion coin. “Women have been made to do that” doesn’t mean “No woman should ever do that.”

        As for ‘delusion of these women’ about the origins behind their choices… reasons behind things evolve past their origins over time, and women are individuals, not a monolith. Not every woman who wears the hijab does it for the same reason, and there are women who wear the hijab who are just as progressive or even more progressive than some who don’t. “Your culture has misogyny in it (who’s doesn’t?!), therefore we say you don’t get to wear that to hold on to any part of your culture” is a tone-deaf argument under a climate when muslim women (and people who are perceived as brown and Middle-Eastern) are under attack.

    • aang says:

      It’s misogyny at its root. Same with the orthodox jewish women in my town who wear wigs. They are taught from birth that an uncovered female head is immodest. They think they are making their own choice to be modest, but it is just internalized misogyny. I’ve also heard women say they are doing it to maintain a connection to their culture, and with this I agree, their culture that is misogynistic. I think women should be allowed to wear whatever they want but need to be upfront about the reason for the choice. I’ve also read a comment by a woman who said her scarf acted as an unspoken signal that she is not open to advances by men and it actually made her life easier in that way but left her open to anti muslim comments.

      • aang
        I can and do respect that but I just don’t feel right closing the door that firmly on a woman’s agency. I would not fight to abolish headscarves if even one out of 10,000 women truly wanted to wear them. What I will always fight for is a woman’s choice. Choice means they don’t have to do what a woman in her pajamas in NYC thinks she should do just because she’s woke.

      • Des says:

        There are two things –
        1. Hijab and niqab are inherently misogynist.
        2. Forbidding hijab and niqab in liberal democracies because you think it’s misogynist while at the same time promoting other misogynist crap like rape culture shows that you are not concerned about misogyny but are in fact a racist using misogyny as an excuse to persecute POC.

        The second is Sara’s point.

      • magnoliarose says:

        Orthodox Judaism is steeped in misogyny and even more so the Charedim. There is even burka-like attire they wear. They are intolerant and treat women and their daughters like things and not people. To get them to educate their daughters sometimes is a huge push.

        It is misogynistic at the root. If it is done to please men or make them behave or to make women stay pure, it is misogyny.

    • Sza says:

      @LAK

      My mom wears the headscarf and you don’t get to tell her or any woman who does that it’s misogynistic or wrong. It’s their body and their choice. The end.

      • OriginalLala says:

        Exactly. I get that the underlying point of covering women up to keep men from losing sexual control is inherently misogynist. But, I also believe that if a women wants to cover up it’s her choice and it would be anti-feminist of me to tell her she can’t.

      • Ennie says:

        In many countries we are entitled to have a choice. In some others wearing it is obligatory, either by law or your gamily will impose it. If the root cause is some kind of extremism, then it is not right in my view. I don’t like aspects of my culture or religion because I think are harmful, or not fair, I won’t perpetuate them. I agree with gay marriage and adoption, while the latter is not allowed yet in my country. Why perpetuate those ideas? Same for women. If we kept those ideas, it would still be frowned upon to get into a cab ( the horror!), that was culturally a thing in my elderly mother’s time. It made it difficult for her to go to work, and it was just a perpetuated idea, not law.

      • Otaku Fairy says:

        Agreed. And these sexist ideas about how women need to be modest in order to prevent men from mistreating women and signal qualities like respectability, self-respect, etc.- all of this misogyny is still present in America. Both men and women are complicit in it, despite the fact that women aren’t required to wear the Hijab. Even if a western woman doesn’t cover her hair with anything, not only may she still be keeping the way she dresses in line with what’s considered ‘classy’ in order ward off violence, harassment, slut-shame, and other forms of disrespect, but she may even join in on shaming and blaming of other women and girls who don’t make the same choices.

    • Asiyah says:

      Putting aside the hijab for a minute, the women who signed this aren’t that different with respect to how they view human beings than religious extremists. Somewhere in this “manifesto” the women point out that s*xual passions are naturally violent, something to that extent, an overall “boys will be boys” attitude. But that is also the type of attitude that many religious extremists have, and the reason why they believe women should wear hijab or even niqab–that it entices men and men just can’t control their passions. I won’t get into why hijab is required but it is not about controlling a man’s lust/passion because at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own behavior(s), but it seems both groups feel men are these animals incapable of restraint, and that women either have to cover up if they want to stop them or embrace it as a huge compliment. They both reduce women to s*xual objects and like the original OP pointed out it is kind of racialized because these particular Frenchwomen believe the reduction of women is something others do, not something the French do.

  5. Cait says:

    It’s a no from me.

    I’ve been awkwardly hit on – but respectfully – and I married that guy. He’s awesome.

    But he wasn’t insistent. He shot his shot, and let me decide what happened next.

    Further, as someone who has been both sexually assaulted and harassed, I find their straw man fallacy demeaning AF.

    • Amy says:

      The things they’re describing in the article as just flirting are in fact sexual harassment: stealing a kiss, sending sexual emails to a woman who is not into them, making sexual comments during a business meeting, insistently and continuously flirting with someone who is not reciprocating. Their article doesn’t even make sense. They want men to continue to have the right to flirt with women, but then they describe a bunch of harassment instead of actual flirting. How much internalized rape culture and misogyny do they have if they really think these sexually harassing things are flirting?

      • Dee Kay says:

        IA @Cait and @Amy: it would be one thing to say “Flirting is okay!” even though that would still be a ridiculous thing to say in response to #metoo. But several of the things that the letter listed is, actually, harassment. Women (and men and non-binary people — EVERYONE!) have a right to workplaces that are free of harassment!!! And no human being should have to suffer the fear and anxiety of being stalked, whether physically or electronically. These women seem to have missed the point of the movement by a million miles.

      • The Other Katherine says:

        Amy: YES YES YES. Good lord, what is wrong with these women?

        I met my husband at work. Guess what? He didn’t pester me, didn’t harass me, didn’t touch me, didn’t send me inappropriate messages. He was just nice and kind and smart and decent, and treated me like a real person. That led to us socializing outside of work, and he watched my cues carefully. If he wasn’t sure whether something was okay, he asked. NO STALKING REQUIRED.

        You have to wonder what on earth these women’s experiences of sex and romance have been like, that they see these harassing and stalking behaviors as normal “flirtation.”

      • Esmerelda says:

        The only explanation I can think of, and I do not offer it as justification, is that those “flirting techniques” were developed in a time where women couldn’t say yes, due to societal constraints, and had to be seen saying no to preserve their social respectability. But thankfully those times are long past, and we women now can directly respond positively to an approach we like or even approach the guy ourselves: we can say yes, so no really means no.
        CD clearly lives in the past.

      • Dee Kay says:

        @Esmerelda: Thank you for that perspective, I agree that does seem likely, and I love the line “we can say yes [now], so no REALLY MEANS no.” That is so wise and TRUE. If previous generations of men were taught *not to believe women when they said “no,”* future generations really need to be taught the opposite. As @TheOtherKatherine says, men need to be told: Watch [person you are interested in] closely for cues. If in doubt about what they think of you or how they feel about you sexually, romantically, ASK THEM and then BELIEVE THEM.

      • I Choose Me says:

        Thank you! I was shocked and then just depressed that these women think that that constitutes flirting. My gawd does internalized misogyny run deep.

  6. Sam the Pink says:

    In all my travels, I’ve always maintained that France is the only place I’d like to never return – between the overt racism and extremely casual sexism, it was not enjoyable. Stuff like this certainly does not help their image.

    Also, I find it odd that they seem to not understand the idea that flirting is fine until one party indicates, you know, “not interested.” Once that’s known, what’s the point in continuing? If a woman is not interested, move on to someone else. Persistence generally gets you nowhere in those situations – it’s more likely to make you into a stalker. If that’s what “flirting” is overseas, I’m happy to stay in America.

    • Zapp Brannigan says:

      Why persist in flirting? Obviously because women are silly little things that need a man to tell them what’s what and anyway it is not about the woman, I mean how dare she not fulfilled his needs when he wants. You can’t go through life treating women, like you know, people and stuff.

    • Léna says:

      I’m sorry you felt that way in my country. We have a lot to improve regarding sexism. And those women are not helping moving forward

      • Sam the Pink says:

        I don’t mean to imply it was all bad – we met some lovely people. Sadly, though, a few lousy encounters can soil a whole experience, which is very sad.

    • Truthful says:

      Thank you for make me even more frustrated by the situation… and for equalling my whole country with a 80 years old dumb prima donna…

      • Sam the Pink says:

        But it’s not just her (or them). I’ve been there, and experienced it first hand. I will say that France seems to have issues around sexism and harassment that many other places do not have (or at least, they don’t deal with those issues as well). That’s besides the racism.

      • Truthful says:

        @Sam: can you develop please? I am intrigued and concerned… as a young french woman running regularly errands with short attire… and having a quite “respected” career and earning more than the double of my male peers…)
        I am truly intrigued so can you develop please

      • sharron says:

        eh, I live at the nearest point to France in the UK and am a frequent visitor for business and pleasure. I have never experienced sexism in France, and would actually say that most French men are politer than UK men in general interaction (in my experience) and certainly more than any Canadians or USA men I have met. The latter mostly behave appallingly at international business conferences in my industry (media), with an overload of sexism/perceived elitism.

      • SilverUnicorn says:

        @Sam the Pink

        Be warned that if you consider France as sexist and racist, you should never visit Italy as most predators get rewarded or have political careers (see Berlusconi) and being racist is a badge of honour…
        (I am Italian and always despaired at the situation).
        However UK has its own issues too, at present..

      • magnoliarose says:

        France has always been lovely and easy. Some of the men can be sexist in how they discuss women and the worst male modeling agents are in France and Italy if we are talking the 1st tier markets.
        Italy is by far the worst.
        THE WORST!
        In Italy sometimes they try not to pay you. I am talking hundreds of thousands after you have walked a billion shows for FW and come up with excuses not to pay. They think young girls are so stupid they could get away with it and they are right sometimes. How do you not pay someone just because she is 17 or 18? Only in Italy.
        Russia can be hinky, but they are only testing to see if you fold and if you don’t break they respect it. In Italy? Nope. They just steal it and take off. There are stories in every country, but you don’t expect it when you are working with names and established people.
        Then there is the constant and I mean constant harassment.
        In France, you can say eff off and maneuver. In Italy, they just go straight to harass and lie to your face. There are models you would recognize who didn’t make a damn dime hardly even though they worked because they were ripped off by men and were always in debt to their agencies.
        Of course, that is not the general all the time experience, but it is enough of one to be a cautionary tale.
        I have to admit the Northern European countries are the least like that. For one, more women are in charge, and for another, the men are just less aggressive.
        I love Italy but I don’t love the cat calling and disrespect of personal space.

      • Kath says:

        +1 on the Italy thing. I love that country with a passion, but found random men getting in your face and bothering you on the street to be beyond the pale. Didn’t find the same in France, although I must say I found people in smaller cities to be friendlier than in Paris, but that’s probably true of all big cities.

    • Godwina says:

      I enjoy France 1000x more than the US for so many reasons, and will never understand anti-French attitudes–that there’s some special kind of evil there. wtf? Look around.

      And oh god, when France is singled out for racism by Americans or Brits, I fall off my chair laugh-crying.

      • Asiyah says:

        Perhaps they single out France even though their own countries are very guilty of racism because France acts like it’s above the bias and racial attitudes? They’re pointing out the hypocrisy more than anything else.

      • Truthful says:

        @Asiyah: Lol! Trop marrant!
        National sport in France : self-criticism, i never find a french that think so highly of France …or of french… and isn’t quick to criticize something specific.Ever

        Thanks for the giggles

      • Asiyah says:

        @Truthful

        You’re welcome for the giggles. I’ve had different experiences with French people. Totally capable of self-criticism but blind when it comes to race.

      • Sophia's Side eye says:

        I went to France in 2009. I loved it there. The people were very nice and I found beauty just everywhere. Paris is a city I would go to again and again, and I hate cities!

        That being said, I would never discount another persons feelings about their experience that was different from my own. I take Sam at her word that her experiences were not good there.

      • Coz says:

        @Asiyah
        I blame Sarkozy and his so called “libération de la parole” which really means that a big part of the right wings représentatives and the bigots feel free to say really racist and bigot things.
        Whenever people call them out on their bulsh!! they scream “pensée unique” as in we censor them and their “truth”. Their favourite targets are muslims. Maybe that’s why you feel that we have a problem adressing racism in our society.
        Also racism in France is not as obvious as in the US. It’s more insidious.
        And we usually do not use the word race anymore, it has a racist conotation here. It is illegal to officially asked for someone ethnicity, religious belief, sexual orientation… as per our constitution and the Déclaration universelle des droits de l’Homme we are all equal (fun fact the word race is used in our constitution which was written in 1958)

        Any way to go back on topic : Catherine Deneuve is a effing moron and has been for a while. This “tribune” is a shame and those women are a disgrace.

      • Truthful says:

        @ Asiyah: I am French -Algerian So while being aware of the struggle of being a minority it is in no way in the state your are trying to depict .

        Ps: most French people are perfectly aware that there is a problem underlying it is amongst the most discussed subject …

      • magnoliarose says:

        I love France. I really do. Problems and all. They have had anti-semitic issues but I never experienced it, and I lived there. Loved it.
        I found the French, in general, to be very thoughtful about their culture and society. At least the people I know, so I can’t say if that is a norm or not. There is some cynicism that seems to flow through everything.
        Americans rarely spend that kind of time or effort contemplating our culture or society. It surprises many to find out how behind we are when it comes to quality of life or treatment of women. We aren’t ahead or even top of the list.

    • TyrantDestroyed says:

      I am married to a French Italian man and I can void that there is a subtle and hidden strong misogynism and sexism going on in the french culture and much more open in the Italian . My husband and his had to suffer from this “macho” way if addressing things from an early age. I come from a Latin American culture where we have very similar problems but I can say sometimes I am appealed by them.
      The women that supported the article have no clue about the times we are about to live.

  7. Genie Lin says:

    I do worry that the issue itself will get watered down or not taken seriously enough the more people keep being outed. What I mean is, once the 100th or whatever man is called out on something he did, either unwanted attention-giving, rape, vocal abuse etc, by that stage, his outing will not have the same shock effect anymore, as the whole thing is so common, and it will become a kind of shrug your shoulders, #himtoo kind of thing. I hope I am wrong.

    • Esmom says:

      I don’t get what you mean. Are you suggesting the movement will only be taken seriously if a few men get called out? The fact that so many men are being called out should be alarming, it is alarming to know just how common abuse is.

    • Who ARE these people? says:

      The me too movement has shown that the shock comes in just how big the numbers are for sexual assault. The shock is exacty that it’s commonplace. That is the point.

      Also, rape is not the same as “unwanted attention-giving” “and everyone knows that. Don’t diminish this crime.

      No one is coming forward for shock value.we are coming forward for justice and the right to live without fear.

    • To defend Genie Lin she separated “unwanted attention giving” and “rape” with a comma. I believe she was giving a list that runs the gamut. Also, I took her statement to mean that the more abusers, garassers and rapists that are outed the more likely people are to eventually just roll their eyes and say what else is new. To some extent this is already happening. Genie also stated that she hopes this does not happen so, yeah, I don’t have a problem with her comment.

  8. Deets says:

    Yeah. I know the type of ‘flirting’ this will end, and I’m fine with it.
    We’ll be getting rid of the flirting where you say no, and the guy tells you he will knock you out. Or you decline to share your number and he tells you you’re asking for it, and should be happy he even noticed, you whore. Or the ‘flirtatious’ unasked for gropings.
    Im just fine with losing out on that.

  9. Lucy says:

    *sighs into Oblivion* and this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when women are raised to believe they absolutely need men’s validation to feel good about themselves. Same as when that one woman wrote an essay saying that street harassment definitely should make us flattered/grateful/whatever.

  10. This sounds so…French.

    • Truthful says:

      Well it’s not …As the overwhelmingly majority of French are utterly shocked by this… my partner (male) and male friends are mortified overhere.

      But the thing is … These are old ladies (I think they are on their 60s on the average… the average being lowered by one dumbass in her 30s… *sight*) and they react just like old ladies… with a strong internal misogyny… and deep will to please men.

      These old ladies actually had a career as ” pretty and submissive balls-carriers” pardon my french (like literally here).

      Most of us are outraged! and this isn’t Catherine Deneuve first hit here… the lady is despicable!!

      ps: twitter is going mental over this here (and so so funny)

      • Léna says:

        I wish I could find the funny and enraged french tweets!!

      • Truthful says:

        @léna

        follow the #CatherineDeneuve …simple 🙂 they are hilarious (and a lot of them are from outraged men … which give a bit hope …)

      • Léna says:

        “Hé c’est pas moi c’est ma b*te qui réclame la liberté de t’importuner” I LOVE IT. I found my activity for the afternoon (instead of shopping, bank account is going to be happy and my feminism and decency filled up 😀 )

      • Truthful says:

        @Léna: lol! les tweets sont les seuls choses qui ont pu me consoler de cette affreuse tribune.

      • magnoliarose says:

        I need to look. Thanks for the tip.
        I would have been surprised if French people weren’t annoyed. You have a tradition of protesting.

    • Book says:

      Staaap. Most of the women who signed this belong to right wing, religious, anti-gay organisations.

      That’s like saying that old white women who support rapist/pedo politicians in the US represent America.

  11. Zapp Brannigan says:

    Excuse me but I am going to rant, offload and then retire from the interwebs for the rest of today.

    The opinions of people (both men and women) is what allows predation to continue unabated, the silence surrounding issues of abuse, the shaming of the victim, the attitude of “don’t talk, don’t tell, move on and forget” simply does not work. When I was three years old a relative started abusing me, during one incident my mother walked in on this man abusing me, she stood there grabbed me by the hand, dragged me out of the room and smacked me, at three almost four years old, for being abused. I vividly remember the shame and confusion I felt at being to blame for this man hurting me. I was told to never speak of it again, I was a bold girl for what I did. This man was never thrown out of our home, he suffered no consequences and would show up to family events and put on the big show of what a great, successful person he was, there was no doubt he was better than all of us. All through this I would have to sit and play nice, smile, be a good girl and every time I did something died inside me. I lost pieces of myself along the way. I live with a great deal of shame and guilt that this man went of to abuse others, maybe if I had been braver or louder I could have stopped them being hurt. He died about 10 years ago and he confessed on his deathbed, his sisters, daughters, granddaughters and me, his niece were all preyed upon by him. I feel sick now when I see my own nieces and realize just how small a 3 year old is and remember myself at that age standing at the bathroom sink, on a little step to reach the taps, trying to clean myself after what he just forced me to do. The day he laid his hands upon me he broke something inside me, something nameless, voiceless that I don’t know what it is I just know I am missing it. It has been 35 years since the abuse started, 34 since it stopped and I feel it’s effects everyday, what he did is a part of me.

    So for those who write these articles lamenting the end of flirting, maybe for once just be silent and listen to the voiceless hurt others have suffered, just for once.

    • Domino says:

      Yes Zapp Brannigan. Words cannot express how much I agree with you. And today and every day I believe you and walk with you. Thank you for sharing your opinion. I am sorry for what you went through, and continue to go through.

    • Who ARE these people? says:

      Before you retire for the day, know that I and surely all of us are outraged that he did that to you and that your mother responded that way instead of comforting and protecting you. Some families are sick and close ranks, but you can be healthy and pure in your anger. Hoping in time the memories have less power to hurt you. And he’s dead, can no longer hurt you, and can no longer defend his name or file a slander or libel suit either for exposing him. He was an assh**e but his power is done.

    • frisbee says:

      I believe you zap and believe in you, as other posters have said, he’s dead, you are here as a clearly an intelligent, articulate woman you won, you overcame in the end and deserve all the plaudits for it. I admire you hugely for you courage.

    • Betsy says:

      A little piece of me dies for stories like yours. I’m sorry.

    • Pumpkin (formely soup, pie) says:

      @Zapp Brannigan: I am so sorry that happened to you. I wish you heal 100%. And please, don’t ever think again you bear any kind of responsibility or are accountable for what happened to you – or to the other girls in your family, by not been braver or louder. It’s not your fault and it’s not the fault of the other girls. I am very confident about this – if you mother knew, so did other relatives. Don’t blame yourself. That’s even worse than the “thing” itself. The “thing” happens, it’s short, but living with it years on end, and taking responsibility for that is AWFUL.
      Adults in your family **knew** about those “incidents”. I will be very direct now, but again, don’t you DARE take any kind of responsibility.
      Words spoken by children – my brother’s best friend says “it’s the drunks and children who always tell the truth”. Ever since I heard that, I pay extra attention to what intoxicated people say and to children.

    • SoulSPA says:

      @Zapp, something died inside me when I read your post. But I want to be strong enough to wish you well. Excuse my language because I have absolutely no right to say this. It’s too late to send the POS to jail, including the extended family that allowed that abuse to happen. But I hope karma gets to all of them and that you will be happy. YOU CAN OVERCOME THIS!

    • SilverUnicorn says:

      @Zapp

      ((Hugs)). So sorry to hear you went through that s**t so early in life. I wish I could have more supporting words to share. I am a rape survivor too (I was abused as a child too but not sexually), I cannot even imagine what it means if you stood that in your childhood.

      And hopefully people like CD will have less of a voice in the future.

    • magnoliarose says:

      Zapp. 🙁
      Your post hurts to read. The visual of a tiny baby being hurt and then smacked and trying to clean herself. I am so sorry for the little you and adult you. It is unfair to be saddled with that memory in your mind.
      I know you are gone for the day.
      Maybe you will check in and see that we believe you. We hear you, and you aren’t alone.
      It pisses me off that this is done to children and that you are one of those precious babies that suffered.

  12. Lolo86lf says:

    I am sorry but that first outfit is so bizarre and unattractive. She is wrong, men and women will continue to flirt with each other until the end of time.

    • Pumpkin (formely soup, pie) says:

      There is nothing wrong about flirting. Flirting is not an issue. Flirting is not about touching the butt or breasts or knee. Flirting is supposed to be fun, simple, it can be a one off or it can lead to something more than that. It’s not even sexual, it’s about the mind, and it doesn’t have a commitment component.
      Her outfit is not a problem. She is.

  13. Ann says:

    Hey, ladies, did you ever notice that there wasn’t a single letter signed by 100 men disavowing the atrocious male behavior towards women? Some women can’t help being men’s house nixxas, right?

  14. lara says:

    I always loved Catherine Deneuve, but this is a big NO! Insistently hitting on someone is not ok. Once a women says or signals no there should be no insisting! I hate the myth that women have to be persuaded.
    Nobody said anything against akward, ok, as long as it is not used as an excuse for groping.
    There are enough men out there who know how to flirt without harrassing thats not rocket science.

  15. Chaine says:

    “Insistently hitting on someone” = harassing and perhaps even stalking.

  16. Who ARE these people? says:

    Ugh. Flirtatious men whow have some sense and self-control are not going to be wrongly accused

    The use of the term “hitting” on someone conflated with flirting tells us everything we need to know about what is really going on.

    The further use of “insistent” as benign and “intimate” as appropriate underscores how grossly men misperceive their bethavior.

    Why are they leaping to the defense of the indefensible? Why is it mens’ flirting that is perceived as under assault and not womens’?

    This is not only a cultural gap, is it?

    • Truthful says:

      “This is not only a cultural gap, is it?”

      No it’s not. People are slicing her on twitter here (France) and she has been called out by so sooooo much people!

  17. Domino says:

    would love to see Tarana Burke take On Deneuve at what girls are going through in the US – we never have a choice to choose for ourselves. FU Catherine.

  18. anna says:

    ewww. i don’t know what to say, but ewww. there should be sanctions for “touching a knee, stealing a kiss”. who wants to be touched and kissed without consent? at least there should be a loud “get your effin hands off me” to shame the guy and if he doesn’t, yeah, resign. what is their bottom line here? men must be allowed to touch women, whether or not the women like it and be able to sex talk in a professional environment whenever they want to. at least thats what i’m reading. just ewwww.

    • Who ARE these people? says:

      It’s true, the letter defends sexual assault, not flirting. They would do a public service by explaining how true, safe, fun, appropriate flirting actually works.

    • Reminds me of the horrible, stunned look on Halle Berry’s face at the Oscars after that Brody kiss/assault.

      • Odetta says:

        I totally forgot about that…what a gross moment..wonder what Halle Barry would say about it now

  19. Midigo says:

    Well, I suppose that Mrs Deneuve had a number of guys repeatedly sending flowers or chocolates or even jewels. Inviting her out for dinner at Bocuse’s. Repeatedly! How uncomfortable, you know!?!?!
    Well, she says, provided they’re not rapists, let’s boys be boys.
    And of course she thinks it’s the same kind of situation faced by women who work their a.. off to pay bills and raise children and have to dodge their bosses’ invitations and wandering hands and lame jokes and longing looks. Without irritating them. Every single day. While performing their duties, staying focused and professional. Wow. Just. Wow.

    • Truthful says:

      She is defending Polanski… not like other celebrities … she is DEFENDING him aggressively to the point you want to slap her to stop saying such vomit inducing atrocities.

      Enough said.

      From there every horror is possible with her. She is an atrocious misoginistic lady. and stupid with that!

  20. Feedmechips says:

    Not surprising. The time I spent living in France was plagued by overt sexism and harassment. It really is the only place I’ve ever lived where I’ve felt afraid for my safety. If #metoo means the end of strangers feeling entitled to touch me without my permission or chase me down the street while shouting out about how they’re going to fuck me, I’m here for it.

    • Truthful says:

      I am sorry but when did you live in France. Because I am (sincerely) shocked.

      I am a french , and travel a lot (a least once a month abroad) and never have pinpoint any difference with other countries.

      Not in Europe
      And just one big in the US: no matter how old men are they feel entitled to chat up very much younger women. (which is super annoying… and I am not used to this and I am French)

    • msd says:

      I got a lot of it in Italy, more so than France but some there too, backpacking in my 20s. It was rarely super aggressive but it did make me uncomfortable. It was mostly very, very tedious. I just wanted to be left alone to look at stuff and not leered at or ciao bella-ed all the freaking time. I don’t know why but those two places were quite different to my other experiences in Western Europe. It felt hyper sexual and masculine at the time.

      • Truthful says:

        when was that?

        And in France or Italy men indeed can try to flirt …but stop immediately if you aren’t having it.

        Maybe it’s cultural.

        the thing I dislike the most in the US is how older gentlemen have no age boundaries and act like they are hot shit even if you can be their daughter or even grand-daughter sometimes…

        So maybe it’s cultural things we are not accustomed to.

        And again when was that? because the ciao bella thing seems a bit dated. no?

      • msd says:

        Early 2000s. It was pretty constant in Italy. Offers to get on the back of motorbikes, ciao bella over and over, men looking me up and down a lot. No one crossed the line but I did feel it all the time. I wondered if it was because I was clearly not local … young, blonde, reasonably attractive. But it was quite markedly different there to other places I went and happened in cities and small towns. As I said, it got tiresome. I just want to look at the art, dude!

        Oh and I’m not American. Never had problems there but I’ve mainly been to the big cities like NY, LA, San Fran.

      • Truthful says:

        @msd ok I understand and it makes much more sense since what you are describing is quite common in Italy 😉 I think that travelling alone was why this happened so much and the blonde thing might have been a “plus” thing too 😉

        In the US, even in LA or NY if you happen to sip on a drink by yourself (even while waiting for a friend) bam some old dude will show up … annoying as hell!

  21. Léna says:

    We have a real problem in France. Why do people in french showbusiness feel the need to defend Polanski so much? Even one of the talkshow I love the most invited Polanski a year or two ago and I was disappointed and the host couldn’t even talk about his accusations.

    I just watched the interview of one of the women who signed this paper and she stated “I’m not haunted by men who flirt with me on the street. It’s part of the life of a woman. Not all women have stories about being harrassed and not all men are pigs” but, it doesn’t mean what SOME of the men do is acceptable. She was shocked that a women called a harrasser a guy who told her “You have big titties” on the streets. Argh.
    And Deneuve… don’t even get me started on her

    • Midigo says:

      “Why do people in french showbusiness feel the need to defend Polanski”.
      I know, French elites have some strange concept of freedom of thought. They even protected Italian and German terrorists for decades , hosting them, inviting them for public lectures and offering them jobs in their Universities.

    • Truthful says:

      co-sign everything

      The Polanski support is monstrous ( foreigners don’t even imagine to what length they have gone to support him…)

      But thankfully they are not us and don’t represent us.

    • pinetree13 says:

      You don’t have to call them accusations as he was convicted.

      I don’t know why people would defend that disgusting child rapist. It pains me.

  22. Slowsnow says:

    So I guess Deneuve won’t mind if I call her a C-U-N-T?

  23. U.S and them says:

    “Rape is a crime,” the women write. “Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”

    What jumped out at me was the bit about insistently hitting on someone not being a crime. I was watching an episode of Happy Days today when Chachi told Eugene Belvin that he chased Joanie for two years before she finally agreed to go out with him and I thought that would be considered harassment these days. If guys are concerned about what is and isn’t legal I guess they could check the relevant laws in their states.

    • Ninks says:

      Agreed, awkwardly hitting on someone in an acceptable setting is fine, but insistently when somebody has repeatedly rejected your advances is not and it’s harrasement.

    • Aren says:

      Yes. Like, how many males would like another male to constantly call them and ask them to hang out? Would they be flattered? Wouldn’t they consider it creepy and annoying?
      Even if they’re both straight, I cannot image a guy saying “Well, he has called me 20 times each day during this week, I should probably accept his invitation and we’ll have a great time”.

  24. wood dragon says:

    Something tells me that this tone deaf essay they put out has just put fuel on the fire over there in France. Deneuve et al are about to get an earful.

    • Truthful says:

      “fuel on the fire”… It’s more gasoline on an already big bonfire …people are up in their arms and rightfully so!

  25. Alix says:

    Alors, les françaises. Que peut-on dire?

    • Truthful says:

      La honte!

      J’étais déjà super choquée et en colère par cette tribune stupide . Mais là en plus on se paye la méga honte!!

      • Léna says:

        C’est sur que c’est pas au Césars que le mouvement #balancetonporc sera défendu… Tristesse de notre showbusiness conservateur et vieillot

      • Mos says:

        Fallait qu’elles nous foutent la honte. 🙁

    • U.S and them says:

      Pepe Le Pew serait en prison maintenant.

    • Belindaya says:

      À part avoir honte de la “grande “Catherine et de l’image que ça donne de la France?Dire et redire que ce genre de déclaration nous fait reculer et que cette centaine de femmes ne nous représente pas .J’entends déjà certains se servir de cette tribune pour justifier l’injustifiable… 🙁

  26. Talie says:

    Some of these backlash pieces have started to float around America too…even in the NY Times as early as last week. It feels orchestrated.

  27. Mos says:

    Please don’t give these 100 privileged women more visibility than all the French feminists that are disgusted by this dumb text.

    This is en text coming from and for :
    – a different generation
    – privileged woman (none of them struggle with money or take public transportation in unsafe area)
    – some of them are racists and very conservative (women in the kitchen style)

    The same Not-Those-Kinds-Of-Feminists you’re talking about in the beginning of the article.

    That being said, I have to admit France has to improve about equality. A LOT.

    • Domino says:

      This, 100%. It’s like mitt romney’s wife bemoaning that she can’t feed her dressage horses because of taxes. Just gtfo. I hate that this letter is getting the attention it is getting.

      Deneuve is a rich woman who is scared about now not receiving male attention, saying “what about me and my plight?” And completely ignoring women and men with real problems.

      Her statement is so heteronormative too, making light of, for example, men who were Spacey’s victims. Is she speaking for them too? The people who were children?

      • SlightlyAnonny says:

        I am trying to remember the source, i think it was The Cut or the Times, but after Trump’s “Grab them by the p-” incident became public they interviewed a bunch of middle-aged, middle-class and higher white women about it. One of them flat said, “who cares? It’s flattering! I wish someone would grab my p-!” She.was.serious. She is the American version of the women who signed this letter.

    • Truthful says:

      This!

    • Don't kill me I am French says:

      +1345

  28. littlemissnaughty says:

    It is SO curious to me how some people have always managed to flirt without being gross. HOW do they even do it? A MYSTERY! How do you know what to talk about during a work dinner? I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE KNOW THESE RULES!

    Seriously though. They all need to read some books or some sh*t. This discussion is getting tedious and that is NOT good. We need to focus.

  29. Mel says:

    I…feel like I should apologize for my country even though I know it’s not my fault. I feel the sting from the people who have had bad experiences here. At the same time, I hear you. My friends « indulge » my feminism…SMH…it’s tiring BUT shout out to all French feminists who KNOW the truth! One of my best friends, with whom I get to have some of my most meaningful conversations, also happens to be a muslim. There. One bird, a billion stones!

    • Léna says:

      Have you heard about Lallab ? French feminist muslims. I love them. Their website is full of stories and very enlightening.

    • River Song says:

      I’m with you, Mel. I feel so ashamed to be French right now. I’m so angry at these women. And I’m sad to see the generalizations that are made about France and French people just because of that utterly stupid letter in Le Monde.

      #MeToo was huge in France. It meant a lot for many of us.

    • Kitten says:

      Please. We literally elected a p*ssy-grabber to represent our country. Even at your worst, you’re still better than the US.

      Also, I have dual citizenship (France/US) and have visited my family in France numerous times and sure, there are dudes that leer or cat-call but it certainly wasn’t any worse than what I’ve experienced here in the US. People tend to paint an entire city/region/country with a broad brush based on one travel experience. It’s annoying AF but it’s what people do. It doesn’t mean we should invalidate their personal experiences but it does mean we should take it with a grain of salt.

  30. Alexandria says:

    My male friend shared this with me and I had to explain to him this movement is not about equating flirting to sexual harassment. Eventually he got my point. I told him this lady must also think feminism means you’re anti men.

  31. Samantha says:

    In France and Italy, people are much more relaxed than in the US. The women are really erotic.
    In US everything is big, big boobs, too much plastic surgery, too serious, too steril.

    Nah, I never liked O.

    The light philosophy of living is missing. French women and Italian women even in age look differently.

    Sorry, guys, I do like your side here, but that is how it is.

    • Léna says:

      French women are erotic???? I’ve seen a big part of France, traveled across more than 10 european countries (including Italy), never saw a difference in women’s behavior. What are you trying to imply ?

      • Reef says:

        Lol, you know what she’s trying to say.

      • Léna says:

        @Reef ? We are more sexually liberated ? I really want to know

      • littlemissnaughty says:

        That French women are more fun, looser, and generally less frigid than anyone else, apparently. I did not see this coming on this site, honestly. Never underestimate people’s ability to embrace clichés.

      • anna says:

        Reef, hahaha, yes! everyone knows how these erotic womenz of france are, such laissez- faire, so much joie de vivre! steal a kiss, harass a stranger, alors!

    • Truthful says:

      pff that stupid cliché!
      I am french and travelled across France AND Italy a lot ! And the is the dumbest thing I have read today.
      Thanks for all the clichés.

      Now I have to put on my béret my perfectly disheveled hair to grab a croissant and meet with my friend Francesca who only wears Dolce & Gabbana and just had pasta… and we will be sultry and erotic together …sight.

      what you read sometimes…. oh … facepalm

      • Gisele says:

        Perfect reply to an asinine comment by Samatha.

      • Kitten says:

        LOL you shut that shit down so seamlessly. Well done.

      • magnoliarose says:

        You forgot your bike basket with a baguette and a bottle of Chianti.

      • Truthful says:

        @Gisele & @Kitten lol! and thanks 😉 …. it was just my frenchiness in its natural habitat of being 24/24 sultry & erotic expressing itself 😉

        @magnoliarose: Of course I did, what did I do ? such a classic element ! lol

        and cheers on Chianti 😉

  32. Maum says:

    They also write that women should accept that ‘sexual pulsions are violent and
    savage’.
    Last paragraph of the letter wants to empower women who claim they have sexually assaulted. They’re not victims. They are strong and even if their bodies can be violated their minds will be always be free so they should get on with life and move past sexual assault.

    They’re also a wonderful passage that says women should effectively feel sorry for the poor men who feel them up on the Tube because they might be victims of their own miserable sexuality.

    At no point is the central issue of consent addressed.
    They’re putting the responsibility of men’s sexual behaviour, consensual or not, entirely on the shoulder of women.

    As a French woman I want to cry.
    My only comfort is that people my age around me absolutely do not think like that.

  33. Ally says:

    Something about majority Catholic countries and this crap being more entrenched there. The idea of women as Eves and Jezebels is so deeply woven in that women constantly have to dance the whore-mother line. Also the patriarchy, where men get to do whatever and the ‘good’ women should just cheer them on.

    Women can never express interest in sex directly (then they’re ‘putes’, ‘pétasses’, ‘salopes’). However they must constantly submit docilely to innuendo and the male gaze. To women of Deneuve’s generation and to about women in their 50s, I would say, seduction is a man harassing you until you consent, apparently, or just go along.

    I’m struck how even in recent French movies made by Macron-style lefties, the word ‘pute’ (whore) is systematically hurled at a woman who cheats or appears to cheat on her boyfriend/husband. Like, these purported intellectuals literally can’t even shade the difference between a woman having sex for pleasure vs. money.

    Btw, the comments on the Jezebel article about this are also pretty great.

    • IlsaLund says:

      It’s not restricted to Latin or Catholic countries. Religion has been used for millennia to control people, especially women. Evangelical and religious right fanatics have caused havoc in the U.S. Perfect example are the Duggar family and Ray Moore and his ilk. Religion reinforces patriarchy and women are indoctrinated into believing in the superiority and power of men over their lives. Unfortunately too many women close their minds and never break free of the brainwashing.

      • anna says:

        yep. it’s super sad that in most religions, women’s bodies are assets and women’s worth lies in reproduction/ fertility. go out and multiply, that sort of thing. it’s successfull too, because even in the 21st century, to control reproduction means in the end more people of your faith and more power. hence, why the evangelists are so hell-bent on demonizing reproductive rights for women. and don’t even get me started on saudi arabia which is basically gilead. it means something that in every country where women can choose when to have children, how many and who with, we have a decline in population and an uptick in education. which is the only way we can survive on this planet, longterm.

      • Ally says:

        I agree, but I think “more entrenched” is accurate. Media people in Italy and France, a high-profile, powerful and supposedly progressive group, have worked hard to shame and silence #metoo women in their countries. This is the exception rather than the rule in e.g. US, UK, Canada. (Though there is a tranche there among self-described progressives that tries to claim these same fuzzy lines between kink and harassment/assault, so there’s that.)

      • SoulSPA says:

        @IlsaLund I fully agree regarding religions’ control over people and especially women. I am trying to say the following very, very carefully. On the one hand religion was and to some extent is a means of social control. I’ve seen it and lived it myself in my own community in a developed and well educated majority Christian country, and through accompanying one of my ex partners in his business travel in a very conservative Muslim country. With all respect, that was my sole experience living in such environment but I couldn’t wait to leave that place. For as much as I tried to be open minded and accepting of differences, considering my privileged background (if only for being educated and able to choose my work, partner and travel), I had to live for years with trauma regarding the fate of women in that country. And believe that even without considering that religion, there are other communities in other countries that I’ve traveled to and seen and heard and read about horrendous things against women at a large scale. My honest and maybe to some extent subjective opinion is that the more educated a country is, there is less violence against women (forced marriages, “honour” murders, FGM, rape, domestic violence by men and female relatives alike, slavery, lack of identity for women beyond being wives and carers). Mind you, I do recognize that violence against women is systemic everywhere including in the Western world but not to the extent and gravity that I tried to convey above. And I don’t want to start on frustration of men as to lack sex**l activity in some communities.

    • Whoopsy Daisy says:

      Eh, I’m from a super Catholic country, and even though we get called patriarchal quite a lot, living here it doesn’t feel like it. Especially when safety is concerned. You can walk anywhere any time day or night by yourself wothout feeling scared, even catcalling barely ever happens. Women being expected to be quiet and put up with it also isn’t expected.
      Having said that, loudly expressing sexuality isn’t that common, but that includes men and women.

    • Savasana Lotus says:

      Maybe they are brainwashed. It’s plain, and now a majority discuss it openly. We don’t like it guys. Leave your sceevy stares and inappropriate comments in your sick brain. We don’t want it. Please don’t tell them otherwise Catherine.

    • Asiyah says:

      I disagree. This is not only endemic in Catholic countries. It’s not only in religious countries either. I hate to sound all “all lives matter” kind of but this really is a global phenomenon (unfortunately). Obviously it’s more overt in certain cultures than in others.

  34. Sparkly says:

    Wow, that’s so incredibly disgusting.

  35. HK9 says:

    I’m actually quite amused that these women don’t know the difference between flirting (consensual & knowing when to stop) and sexual harassment. Flirting is enjoyed by both parties, and the refusal of said flirting will not get me fired and or have a negative campaign about me launched against me in either in public or private that will end my carreer. It’s astounding how people don’t actually know what they are talking about. They don’t know what sexual harassment is.

    Flirting can only take place when all parties feel safe and sexual harassment makes that impossible, so if you want to preserve “flirting” you need to stand up for the end of sexual harassment. Love Catherine Denuve, but she & her crew are just a bunch of dumb cows at this point.

  36. Anastasia says:

    Excuse me while I roll my eyes so hard I see my brain.

  37. Veronica says:

    Uh, France, if y’all consider unwanted touching or kissing to be common flirting, y’all can keep your men over there. Here we call that “sexual harassment.”

    • River Song says:

      We don’t. We call that “sexual harrassment” and “sexual assault” too.

      Please don’t judge us all according to a bunch of stupid and misogynistic women who wrote a dumb op-ed.

      • Veronica says:

        Tone doesn’t carry well over the Internet, but I was being a tad facetious. Have no fear, Americans are in no position to judge the moral fiber of other countries. 😉

      • River Song says:

        Oh it’s fine, I guess I’ve been so enraged by this stupid op-ed since yesterday that I can’t seem to spot humour right now ^^

  38. Savasana Lotus says:

    Aaaaaaaw. Poor ol’ Catherine doesn’t understand the difference between flirting and battery/rape/harassment and quid-pro-quo. Someone help her please.

  39. Shannon says:

    OMFG. I have literally been married TWICE (one high school ‘sweetheart’, second a guy I super LOVED but it didn’t work out) neither of the acted inappropriately toward me ever. If you can’t flirt without sexually assaulting someone, and if you can’t flirt without being at work in a position of power over someone – your game sucks and gtfooh. I’m only part way through this post but y’all, I’m getting ragey already.

  40. SM says:

     “to have touched a knee, tried to steal a kiss, spoken of ‘intimate’ things during a professional dinner or to have sent sexually suggestive messages” yes, those are all very sexually exciting things, ONLY when there are two sides involved in that flirt and both sides engaging in that flirt. They are confusing flirting when a man and a woman like each other with the sort of touching and flirting and kissing men do only because they think they are sex symbols or something and it must please every single woman they meet, or a woman who clearly is not interested.

  41. Belindaya says:

    As a French woman currently living in France , I have to tell you that the reaction to this news has been a big “WTF??!!!Are you losing your minds,girlfriends??!!!”.
    Those women are a minority .Unfortunately , a vocal one because they are famous .
    Raping ,harrasing and pressuring anyone into having sex with them, should never…ever …ever seen as innocuous in any country you are in !!!

    • SoulSPA says:

      I agree. I am wondering if Le Monde could allow the right to counter opinion (there is such thing but I am not sure how it’s called in English) of 100 French women to respond to said letter and trash their views? And shame them, of course. *They deserve it*.

      • Belindaya says:

        Hi SoulSPA , are you talking about a right of reply ( droit de réponse) that can counterbalance this awful article ?
        I would gladly sign a petition to say that I don’t agree with that despicable point of view.

      • SoulSPA says:

        Oui, Belindaya! Yes, please! And can I change my mind? Not 100 but 1000. Or 3257 and counting. And can we include some men too? Le Monde *is* a very prestigious newspaper. They should at least allow counter opinions. How can we expect things to change or at least have our opinions heard if prestigious media didn’t do they job and allow counter opinions? #metoo #moiaussi #seizethemomentum

      • Ally says:

        Above, I posted a link to a rejoinder column published today.

        Le Monde is a respectable newspaper, but it is very much right wing. Sort of equivalent to Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal in the US, or the National Post in Canada. It’s where you’d expect to find the macho s**theads eager to publish this kind of ‘women would like less rights, please’ column.

  42. 42istheanswer says:

    Oh boy, what a piece of rubbish that petition is ! It is so fundamentally tone-deaf it reeks of privilege and lack of understanding.

    I will however play devil’s advocate, just for the sake of it.
    Catherine Deneuve is problematic on plenty of levels but she is a feminist. She just happens to be an old one. As evidence of her feminist credentials, I will mention the 1971 “manifeste des 343”. At the time, a woman and her teenager daughter were being tried because the teenager had had an (then illegal) abortion. So 343 famous Frenchwomen signed a petition declaring they too had violated the law and had an abortion, challenging the courts to try and condemn them too or release the mother-daughter duo and change the law criminalising abortion. Catherine Deneuve signed the manifesto and, therefore, took the risk to be arrested for having aborted. That, I believe, can be considered a feminist deed. A feminist deed of its time.
    Every generation of feminists has to choose their fights (there are so bloody many, they cannot all be handled at once), prioritises the causes they are going to embrace, the hills they are willing to die on. Step by step. Catherine Deneuve’s feminism comes straight from the 70s, a time when the enemy was the State’s (and religion’s) control over women’s bodies, not individual men’s criminal entitlement. And her attitude towards the metoo movement is a byproduct of this.

    It is basically the Angela Lansbury situation all over again. Or the Helen Mirren one (check out some of her statements about date rape and be appalled !). They are feminists, but of another era. So let’s thank them for the changes they helped bring about and not give a flying fig about their opinion on current problems and fights, because it is very likely going to be pathetic.

    • Samantha says:

      I see what you mean, but this “generation gap” doesn’t quite excuse them. A rational, non-biased person should be able to listen and learn. They’re making such a non-sensical, straw-man attack that it’s clear they haven’t followed the movement well enough to even know what it is. That is a stain on their characters, regardless of what other good they’ve done. In fact, you could look into the predators’ actions and see plenty of good as well.
      P.S. I’m not the SAMANTHA from the above post who commented about french women being erotic!

      • 42istheanswer says:

        I am not trying to excuse them but to explain them, if it is at all possible.

        Obviously, we can find “good” in the deeds of Weinsteins of the world but not feminist good because they never cared for women. They may have said they did because they knew it was the right thing to express but they never believed it. Had they truly cared, they would not have done what they did.

        The Deneuves, Lansburys and Mirrens did do good by feminist standards. They did help the cause in their time but, nowadays, they are completely out of sync. I assume Deneuve did listen to the metoo movement but she does not get it. Because, aside from the cases of painfully obvious rape which she condemns, she may feel that the other accusations and revendications are “trite”. Which is, of course, utterly wrong but understandable from her viewpoint.
        She, like so many women of her generation, went through the experience of having a back alley abortion with the genuine and reasonable fear of a) being arrested by the police and possibly going to jail for it; and b) dying as a result of complications. She fought for other, younger women not to have to feel that fear. So I assume she, now in her seventies, reads and understand every metoo testimony through the prism of her own experience, thinking “well, a pat on the bum or an indecent proposal is not nearly as bad, toughen up, ladies !”.

        Is she right to think that ? Of bloody course not ! It is a stupid and lamentable thought which she should keep to herself.
        Does she have “good” reasons to think it ? Sadly, yes.

        It is not her fight, it is ours. She does not have to understand it and we do not need her approval. Would it be nice to get it ? Sure, but it is far from indispensable. I humbly believe the best course of action is simply to ignore her and the women like her for, at the end of the day, they are certainly not allies but they also are not the “real” enemy either. They are relics of a bygone era.

  43. A.Key says:

    I guess they flirt differently in France……….. *eyeroll*

    Though honestly, French people aren’t famous for being sociable/friendly/polite so why am I surprised. I have never encountered problems because I speak French and thus am treated immediately differently there, but try speaking English in France and you’ll get the cold shoulder and deathly stares all around.

    • Truthful says:

      Lol at your comment. It seems it has the immense privilege to use a fantasy-time-travelling machine to give us a glimpse of what imaginary France from the 60s looked like through travel catalogues tips from that era….

      French maybe aren’t famous to be the most sociable… but polite ?

      there is a polite way for everything in France, of you fail it then people aren’t the nicest

      Politeness(or lack of it) is the turning point while interacting in France, if you say hello, “can I ask you something/// a direction//an information” “please”, in whatever language you are trying to express people will be nice AND friendly.
      If you try it in french ( just Bonjour and merci) extra friendliness for you!

      If you don’t …. there comes the cold shoulder and deathly stares…

      signed A parisian who pretends to not even speak english when interrupted in my daily life by ( incredibly) rudes tourists trying to live their “Amélie experience”

    • 42istheanswer says:

      I would like to defend my people on this one.

      Yes, we are structurally rude (and I quite like it, to be honest). However, English-speaking (and I am sorry to say, mostly Americans) tourists are not particularly pleasant either. The problem is not that most cannot speak French, it is that they do no even try. They simply assume everyone speaks their language…
      As a Parisian, there are days when I get accosted 10 times by American tourists who, without even an attempt at “bonjour” (none of them watched Beauty and the Beast ?), ask me, in English, that I point them towards this or that monument… The idea that Paris is like Disneyworld and that its inhabitants are employees whose job it is to help out tourists (in English, bien sûr) is a pervasive and frankly annoying one. Lilo and Stitch had it right : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPoeIQaOiQ

  44. 42istheanswer says:

    I would like to defend my people on this one.

    Yes, we are structurally rude (and I quite like it, to be honest). However, English-speaking (and I am sorry to say, mostly Americans) tourists are not particularly pleasant either. The problem is not that most cannot speak French, it is that they do no even try. They simply assume everyone speaks their language…
    As a Parisian, there are days when I get accosted 10 times by American tourists who, without even an attempt at “bonjour” (none of them watched Beauty and the Beast ?), ask me, in English, that I point them towards this or that monument… The idea that Paris is like Disneyworld and that its inhabitants are employees whose job it is to help out tourists (in English, bien sûr) is a pervasive and frankly annoying one. Lilo and Stitch had it right : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPoeIQaOiQ

    • Kitten says:

      Ok but keep in mind that not all of us grow up learning French as a second language–it’s not like Spanish, which is the popular foreign language that most Americans learn in school.
      Most Americans don’t attempt to speak French in because they are embarrassed. It’s an intimidating and challenging language for many of us in terms of both grammar and getting the accent right.
      Is that annoying for French people? I’m sure. But maybe instead of assuming we are all arrogant and/or presumptuous you could extend a bit of sympathy, or at the very least be a bit less judgmental.

      Also, my French family is annoying AF when it comes to my pretty-damn-good-but-not-perfect French accent and (slightly) imperfect French grammar. If I make even the slightest error, I am promptly corrected.

      Ad nauseam.

      It doesn’t exactly encourage me to speak French around them, knowing any mistake I make will be immediately brought to my attention.

      Contrast that against the US where on a daily basis I encounter tourists from all over the world, with a variety of dialects and accents and never do I feel the need to condescendingly correct them. I get the gist of what they’re saying, it doesn’t have to be grammatically perfect nor even easy to understand. I don’t feel the need to humiliate them by demonstrating proper English.

      So now that we’ve gotten our gross stereotypes about ill-mannered foreigners out of the way, can we call it even?

      • magnoliarose says:

        That would get annoying if my relatives behaved like that I have to admit. It would get old.

        I was traveling with my friend from Chile, and we went to Spain, and some people pretended they couldn’t understand one word of her Spanish. I am not joking. Rudely making faces and asking her to repeat over and over.
        To this day she still brings it up.

        It is funny because every country has their idea of the obnoxious tourist. In Italy, I heard complaints about the Brits and Germans. In Spain, the Germans and Dutch. Etc.
        In Russia…I dk. My Russian sucks but they were kind about it and seemed very pleased that I could say anything.

      • 42istheanswer says:

        @Kitten
        Those are not “gross stereotypes about ill-mannered foreigners”; those are accurately observed patterns of behaviours.

        We, the French, do correct other people’s grammar. All the time. We do not just do it to non-native French speakers, we do it to everyone, including ourselves. It is not a stereotype, it is the truth for the majority of us. Is it rude ? Yep but it does not make it any less true.

        No one can reasonably expect tourists to be fluent in French but is it really too much to ask that they not assume that everyone understand their mother tongue ? When I visited China, I most certainly was not fluent in Cantonese or Mandarin but I did learn how to say the most basic stuff in both languages : greetings and how to ask a question starting with “where is…” in case I got lost.
        It is what most tourists do. Many now even tend to use their smartphones : they enter their question into Google translate and politely ask passers-by to read it and help them out.

        Also, when a tourist hails a local like a cab with a “hey, you know where the *insert Parisian monument* is ?” (no hello and, of course, no thank you once the information is obtained), I do not assume that the disrespect and entitlement of the form of address is born out of embarrassment. I assume it is born out of… well, disrespect and entitlement. And when it happens 10 times of day with 10 different tourists, I struggle to extend “a bit of sympathy”. But you are right, maybe I should be less judgmental. Instead of concluding that people behave rudely because they are rude, I should instead presume that their rudeness is but shyness in disguise, because they were told off too many times by their French relatives.

        On a sidenote, if Spanish is a less intimidating language than French for Americans, I do not understand why I saw a very similar pattern of behaviour from tourists when I lived in Mexico… Were the many occurrences of “hey, hablo ingles ?” (not “usted habla”, not even “hablas”, just “hablo” because conjugation is apparently unnecessary) also born out of embarrassment ?
        I swear I am not taking a jab at Americans as a whole. The ones I met in America were incredibly polite (almost too much ^^). The ones who live abroad tend to be delightful. But tourists ? For many of them ? Oh boy…

      • j says:

        i get asked 10 times a day where things are by tourists and locals alike, living in a big city. it’s honestly not a problem. ever. even if people are ESL and struggling, like it’s fine? i help them or pull out my phone and google map show them. they have their own phone, sure, but they’re in a new place and overwhelmed! for fuck’s sake just be nice.

      • Mina says:

        @42istheanswer, I think “hey” can be considered a form of saying hello, so I don’t understand why it’s rude. As for Spanish, Kitten said it’s usually taught in American schools, not that everyone speaks it. As a Spanish speaker myself, I can certainly understand why English speakers get confused about conjugations, we have way too many different words for verb tenses and it’s unreasonable to think someone is rude because they don’t know how to do it. Like I said in my other comment, people who are nice and helpful to others don’t expect that it will be offensive or annoying to others when they ask for some help.

    • Mina says:

      I see what you mean, but I think Americans are usually pretty nice to tourists, even when they speak a different language, so they expect in other places it will be the same. At least that’s been my experience, and I travel a lot. When I go to the US, everyone goes out of their way to help you out when you’re a foreigner (except NYC, that is). The fact you think they are being rude by asking for directions like that, or treating you like it’s your job to answer, shows how different the cultures are.

  45. Pandy says:

    Well, of course it will spend the end of flirting … if flirting is pushing someone’s head into your crotch, or exposing your genitals, or forcing intercourse onto someone, etc., etc., etc.

  46. j says:

    here’s my test for straw men:

    1. is the argument reactionary?
    ** in this case, is there any kind of evidence that flirtation as we know it will end or has ended because of #metoo? because they haven’t offered any. they’ve drawn an unsupported conclusion. thus it seems reactionary to the original point, with a side of speculation on something that hasn’t happened yet. in a word #irrelevant

    2. does their argument change the subject?
    **they’re just screaming “WHAT ABOUT ROMANCE”. well…what about it? we’re not talking about romance. we can talk about that later, if you want. But let’s finish up with the rampant sexual harassment, assault, exclusion, and oppression of women stuff first k?

    if you answered yes to either of the above, you might have a straw man! if so, kill it with fire 🙂 if you’d like to scream about this and other things together, join me at @myexistentialmakeup

  47. Mina says:

    This reminds me of a scene in the third season of the TV show “The Affair”, in which they are discussing consent during a dinner. A female american student passionately defends the idea of literal, expressed aloud consent. Then, the french teacher played by Irene Jacob gives a more ambiguous opinion about consent, insinuating that sometimes sex and romance are not so black or white. It was interesting to see the clash of cultures, but this MeToo thing has made it very clear that there are many things in social behavior that we still face differently. Let’s not forget that France is still giving Roman Polanski awards.

  48. HoustonGrl says:

    Ok please, we don’t need to start hating on all of France just because one French actress said something horrible and a group of idiots signed it. Does Lena Dunham represent all Americans? Hell, we elected Trump, does that mean all Americans are like him? As some pointed out, the French are just as outraged about this.

  49. Anare says:

    I read that ignorant letter and all I can say is sexual harassment does not equate to flirting. STFU!

  50. Shannon says:

    The things she mentions: hand on knee, discussing intimate things at a work dinner, trying to steal a kiss – are NOT appropriate at work. If you’re on a date, sure. Flirting is flirting (and never appropriate at work) and sexual harassment is sexual harassment. If a man doesn’t know how to flirt without acting like a sexual predator, he needs to just step out of the flirting game until he learns.

    • Kim says:

      Exactly. If you need someone to explain to you, in basic kindergarten terms, when it is appropriate for you to touch and when it is not, or when it is okay to say things and when it is not, then you have no place in a professional, adult environment.

  51. Kim says:

    I’m fairly certain that French people are much like people everywhere and therefore shouldn’t be judged on their crazy minority groups. That being said, please STFU, you misinformed psychos. Speaking up about people foisting their unwanted advances on you will not stop normal, un-f*cked human beings from engaging in natural mating behaviors. Just. Quit it.