(Argument starts at around 1:15 in second video below)
Michael Moore was on The View yesterday. I’ve seen his movies and makes some powerful arguments. I like how he’s so willing to put himself out there with viewpoints that some consider radical. He’s not apologetic, and he tries to back up his points with facts and details. I don’t always agree with him, but I appreciate that he’s making movies and I admire how he makes his case. He stays somewhat calm, and he keeps at his argument. Moore is promoting his new memoir, Here Comes Trouble.
At some points during his stint on The View, their resident conservative Elisabeth Hasselbeck agreed with Moore, particularly when he said that Republicans should pick a more moderate candidate like Utah governor Jon Huntsman. He half joked that “Republicans are so committed to the Tea Party that they’re on the Teatanic.”
Then when Moore tried to argue that we should have put Osama Bin Laden on trial, like we tried the Nazi war criminals, Elisabeth wasn’t having it and she got loud. She tried to make the point that Bin Laden wasn’t a citizen and didn’t deserve the same rights as citizens, which is total bunk in my opinion. You can make the case that the guy is an evil mastermind who killed thousands, has followers that would martyr him or that a trial would cost millions of dollars and be a media circus, that’s persuasive and true. To argue that non-citizens don’t deserve trials, aren’t granted the same rights as Americans and should get some kind of swift vigilante justice is just ridiculous. That’s Elisabeth for you. Moore is just as out there by some estimates, he’s just on the complete other side with more reasoned arguments.
Moore: The way we show the world that we’re different is that we give even the most heinous person their day in court. If we lose sight of that basic American principal. We put the Nazis on trial, we put Manson on trial.
Elisabeth: You’re telling me Osama Bin Laden, responsible for slaughters of how many thousands of individuals, deserves a trial but where in NY city, the site of the slaughter of our own 3,000 on 9/11. Absolutely not. How dare. And why, cause Casey Anthony’s trial went so well?
Moore: What are we afraid of? We’re Americans, man.
Barbara Walters and Joy Behar tell him that “we did not want himn to appear as a martyr.”
Moore: I don’t think the Nazis appeared as martyrs, we hung them high for what they did. You’re missing the point. If we start to say that we’re afraid to hold trials because terrorists will hurt us, we look like a bunch of wusses.
We’re Americans and if you come here and kill us we will hunt you down and we will take you into court and put you on trial, and if need be you will receive the maximum punishment for what you did. What is wrong with that? That’s what we are as Americans.
Hasselbeck: That is the right granted to our citizens. Even those citizens here who do not abide by law are granted those rights. Osama Bin Laden never deserved those rights. Never did ever.
Joy Behar: Besides the rights, Michael, we don’t want his followers to think of him as a martyr or have input in the trial.
Moore: His followers are few, and they are crackpots and the world will always have crackpots.
I get what Moore is saying, but I don’t see where it could have worked. It’s too delicate an issue at this point, and we’re talking about the world’s most notorious terrorist. Moore tried to later explain that he’s a Catholic and they believe “it is wrong to take the life of another person unless it’s in absolute self defense in that moment.” Then Elisabeth asked him if he was pro life and he was like “yes I’m pro life in the sense that I don’t believe you should kill people. Not on abortion.” I guess both sides have their own definition of what being pro life means.
OMG the bias and ignorance is just too much. Do not want.
Could americans think any more vapidly?
I grew up there, but god, its so embarrassing.
You can make the case that the guy is an evil mastermind who killed thousands, has followers that would martyr him or that a trial would cost millions of dollars and be a media circus, that’s persuasive and true. To argue that non-citizens don’t deserve trials, aren’t granted the same rights as Americans and should get some kind of swift vigilante justice is just ridiculous.
Exactly what I think.
I love Michael Moore. At least his arguments are fact based. Elizabeth is all right wing emotion!
Depends upon when you think “life” begins. Conception? Or when synapses start forming between the neurons, allowing the ability to think to begin.
Michael has GOT to do something about his weight. In his movie “Sicko”, I was taken aback; the black shirt isn’t fooling anyone.
Good evening everyone! Hopefully Linnocent has done something interesting tonight?!
So killing someone in there home doesn’t make them a martyr??????? A trial would have been the proper way to handle things. Elisabeth Hasselbeck is beyond stupid and the way she starts yelling is so inappropriate. I can’t even watch the view because those women are all so stupid.
Also, Moore is not “out there”. He represents an older value system. America used to be a great country.
Yeah. And how many deaths of innocent people are America responsible for? One example: Pinochet. 3197 persons killed. Pinochet took over with the help of america. Chile had an elected president.
and no, I don’t back terrorists. From either side.
There’s nothing wrong with Barbara Walters wanting a conservative POV on “The View.” She should, however, have gotten an intelligent one who also isn’t kind of crazy, like Megan McCain.
Michael Moore is often provocative on purpose, but he is a smart cookie, and is truly there for the “little guy.”
I will also say, that killing someone makes them, de facto, a martyr. That’s what a martyr literally is.
And, Hasselbeck seems to never have heard of something called “International Law,” nor studied the Nuremberg Trials, and the reason why the Allies held them. Or why the Rwanda ringleaders are being tried internationally, and not in Rwanda.
I’ve heard this argument before that the Constitution only applies to citizens. EH is a maroon.
Moore represents an “older value system”????
Wow, sorry, I don’t see that at all.
Well said mary. Americans are sadly uninformed and thus highly prone to prejudice and paranoia. 🙁
@ Tapioca. I know. And that’s one decade.
the 10th Annivarsary of 9/11 pissed me off. yes, tragic, 3000 americans died. But put in perspective it’s not that tragic. The ongoing famine in Africa is tragic. The children dying in Afganisthan and Iraq is tragic.
How america could be surprised is beyond me. They meddled way to much in other countries not to have people turning against them.
but tapioca, Bush is a citizen! He deserves a trial after all.
I agree with Moore.
He realized earlier than most of us that things are not just wrong with women and minorities in America, but also with white men (see also: the recession).
Not a fan of Moore b/c his movies anger me with his lack of “full” truth telling. Is it telling the truth to leave out the full story? His admirers are right – he is well informed – informed enough to know what to leave out of his movies so that he can make whatever point he wants and talented enough to entertain people into believing that point. I really wish though that he would use that ability to tell the full story in order to challenge viewers to make their own mind up on what they believe.
Hasselbeck represents the school of thought that supports glorifed mob justice, and if it runs roughshod over international law, then so be it. Bush didn’t give a rat’s ass when he went into Iraq without the permisson nor the cooperation of the UN Security Council.
It’s small town justice with congressional agency, and it’s perilous. They’re blinded by the own paranoid need for self-protection at the ideologicacal expense of others. Doesn’t matter what laws you bend (or break) or if your reactionary measures potentially cause harm to others that having nothing to do with your justice. They will always protect number 1. At any cost.
@Mary:
I would love to see Dubya (and Tony Blair) on trial for war crimes, especially given that his defence is essentially, “God told me to do it!”. Kinda like when Satan told Richard Ramirez to kill those 13 people…
(This is where I write that some of my best friends are American 😉 and it’s the war-mongers dictating foreign policy I have issue with! 🙁 )
Hasselbeck should have been fired for what she said about Erin Andrews and how it was her fault for being stalked and a victim of a sex crime.
@ tapioca
really? I thougt it was spelled O I L
well as System of a down put it:
“Do not follow american foreign policy DO NOT FOLLOW AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY!
if you have to follow anything follow american baseball or something…”
Hasselbeck is an insipid idiot and always has been. I guess most surprising to me is that Moore is a catholic….weird.
Hasselbeck is a stupid twit. Moore makes thought-provoking opinion pieces, but I wouldn’t really call them documentaries… way, way too much bias. I appreciate his point of view, but things like the unlocked front doors in Sarnia, Ontario, in Bowling for Columbine really bothered me – I live in BC and sure as hell wouldn’t leave my door open overnight.
I don’t have a strong opinion about the way the US dealt with Bin Laden, but Hasselbeck’s point is ridiculous. Plus, you have to kill someone to turn them into a martyr!
I was thinking Kate Gosselin made it onto the View and was thinking Yaay! I’d love to watch her out beyotch Hasslebeck.
It is terribly ironic and tragic that the Nazis, who killed MILLIONS and nearly brought the world to its entire knees as it fought to oust them from power in Europe, were granted trials in the aftermath of it all. Sure Hitler was exempt but only because he went out like a pussy.
Osama is half the enemy that Hitler and others were and I do believe the only reason he was killed outright was because he was a mess America was responsible for making.
It’s common knowledge that some of those we are fighting in Afghanistan, were trained by Americans to oppose the Russian invasion of Afghanistan during the Cold War. It’s an embarrassing blight and better to clean it up quickly with a bullet rather than let this all play out in a courtroom for the world to watch.
People like Elizabeth scare me as do those who “parrot” the same excuse over and over, “He wasn’t a citizen, he didn’t have that right.” or “He would have been martyr’d and it would have been a circus.”
The entire war of terrorism is a circus. Your point?
[Charlie Brown groan] Principle, not principal!
I agree with Michael. I understand that it would incense Bin Laden’s followers however justice is an ideal that should never be compromised. I think Obama made an err
@Jill
Thank you for pointing that out. Moore is often correct, but he is manipulative with information in his films. Both Liberal and Conservative POVs can be narrow and ignorant.
I agree with Michael. I understand that it would incense Bin Laden’s followers however justice is an ideal that should never be compromised. I think Obama made an error clusing Guantanamo. He should have simply established that under his leadership torture would not occur there and then it could have been used as a facilitu to conduct Bin Laden’s trial.
What a horrible idea to put Osama on trial. Yes, let’s put the country more in debt and waste more of the tax payers’ dollars on a man that would’ve taken out this whole country if he could. Get a grip Moore.
I’m proud of this country and I think 9/11 deserved every ounce of respect and notation. It was a TRAGEDY! Some of you on here need to show respect.
“Osama Bin Laden never deserved those rights.”
but he still had them which is why they are considered RIGHTS. I believe that was Moore’s point.
A democratic republic has a duty to respect rights, as they are, in theory, inherent. The flaws in this reasoning are…legion. But you still make a good faith attempt at due process. It may not be fun, but you still TRY to abide by them.
@jackson
So, did the Allies not show respect for the 12 million killed in the Holocaust, plus all the other civilian deaths?
She’s a dumb dumb lady. The cute thing is that in her brain she has the intelligence to argue-toe to toe-with Michael Moore. I wish we could see an extended version play out, because no matter what you think of Moore, he’s a smart mofo and would wipe the floor with her.
love Michael Moore and he’s absolutely 100% right on this one
@Seal
Not quite sure what you are getting at, but I do believe the Holocaust demands respect by the whole world, and may it forever be that way. Such events should humble every single person. I am directly talking about the above comment where Mary implies that the anniversary of 9/11 pissed her off and is not considered a tragedy. What about the innocent children that lost their mom, dad, or both? The fire fighters that are still suffering from the effects of the aftermath and the ones that lost their lives? The innocent people that died from such a vain act? I am sure she would have a different opinon if she was directly affected. I will never understand that mindset.
Hassle-beck should be on The Talk, because she never shuts up.
And since we’re killing non-citizens who commit heinous crimes in our country upon our citizens, let’s talk illegal immigration (yeah, I said it).
“Illegal” by it’s very definition is a crime. Illegal immigrants are not considered citizens, yet they are still granted trials/hearings and are in jail if not deported.
Hassle-beck, your logic is flawed. (But a trial in Hague probably wasn’t an option. And if OBL’s death sent the Taliban into chaos, so be it.)
Honestly? People like Elizabeth Hasslebeck are an embarrassment to Americans everywhere. Her type of logic and ‘reason’ is precisely the narrow-minded, small-world, ‘America is everything’ mentality that the rest of the world despises. Michael Moore has his own issues but I couldn’t agree more with his argument in this case. A little perspective for Ms. Hasselbeck and her ilk would not go amiss.
Bin Laden would have gone on trial in The Hague, not the US. The International Court of Justice would have presided just like they did for the Rwandan genocide and the genocide in the Former Yugoslavia.
You can Wikipedia The Hague, the Geneva Convention, etc. if you want more information.
I definitely agree with Michael Moore. Killing him solved nothing except to get 20+ Navy Seals and other soldiers killed in the helicopter that went down. He should have been put on trial.
I’m very, VERY liberal when it comes to social and state issues, but I just have to say… Moore makes me ashamed to have ANY liberal views. There are brilliant liberal minds in the media (Bill Maher comes to mind right away), but Moore is not one of them. He is a college dropout who got to where he is for suing a former employer and using the money to fund his first film. You don’t HAVE to like every pundit who happens to be on your side – for example, I have several conservative friends who would rather shove pins under their nails than listen to Ann Coulter speak for even a second.
And the fact that this morbidly obese man is one of the loudest proponents for universal healthcare is an embarrassment for the left.
As for Hasselbeck – meh. She’s really pretty. That’s all I can say. And I think her heart’s in the right place, but sometimes it seems like she just repeats what she heard O’Reilly say the previous evening.
Michael Moore is an uneducated fool. Regardless of your political view he is a hypocrite who never has the facts to back up his opinions. He just spews which i hate from anyone liberal or tea party.
In theory, Michael is correct. Everyone deserves a trial, because if we kill everyone we think is guilty, what if you kill someone that is not actually guilty? You can’t just radomly decide who deserves to die. However, I am glad in my heart that they killed osama. if anybody deserves it, that sob did!
@C
I want to feed the trolls, so: being pro Constitution and right of law does not make one a liberal or a conservative, it makes one a good citizen of the USA.
Your teabag is ready, btw.
Anyone who does consider themselves conservative/GOP should be embarrassed by Hasselbeck representing them. For real. She is an idiot and tramples compassion to make some stupid non-point (ie Erin Andrews). People should clamor for someone like Megan McCain who is intelligent, articulate, and normal.
@Jackson
I am asking if the Allies disrespected the victims of WW II by holding the Nuremberg Trials. By your logic, the answer would be “yes.”
Would that the Republican party actually listens and nominate Huntsman. The rest is –yawn– old territory.
Michael Moore is neither uneducated nor unintelligent. Nor are his movies or books.
The former USSR invaded Afghanistan and started cutting down everyone in sight and we’re the root cause of that problem because we provided training and weapons to a bunch of impoverish farmers who didn’t want to be raped and murdered? An embarrassing blight to cover over with a bullet? oh please. In Afghanistan the original precursors to the Mujahedeen started out as a resistance movement against the communist policies of the then Soviet backed Hafizullah Amin. When genocide began, they reached out to America for help through Pakistan. We did not start that conflict due to the Cold War, what a twisted way to turn that one around. Of course there was an American agenda involved, every country on the planet works for their own agenda.
It is very telling about the contemporary left in the West with how conveniently selective their memories are on the origins of these Middle Eastern conflicts with the West, and where the aggression sprouted from. British imperialism created Israel via the UN. Europe exported their internal problems with racial conflicts concerning Jewish folks to the Middle East. Europe started mucking around in the ME well before America existed. They have shit all over Africa, as well as the Pacific rim with their imperialism. France and England are bombing Libya right now too and requesting further authority to intervene, stick the responsibility finger in your own face. None of that excuses American involvement, we have no place in any of these problems.
Oil. The highest oil producing countries in the Middle East are not Afghanistan or Iraq. If we were after oil we would have rolled over a Latin American country. Mexico is rich with natural resources and could be a superpower in their own right if their unbridled corruption could be contained. Such typical snide oil comments are simple minded and nothing more than bumper sticker politics. Or quoting crappy nu metal bands.
To be clinical about it, invading Mexico or Venezuela is a cheaper and a more attractive logistical target for oil. But yeah, keep up the sloganeering.
On a personal level, I subscribe to a strictly non-interventionist policy. We have lost any sort of moral clarity in our dealings with other countries. Simply put, America needs to focus solely on ourselves and have a humble yet hands off attitude with the rest of the planet.
No foreign aid, no engagement with armed conflict unless we are directly attacked. We should have learned our lesson by now. Trade with all nations, allegiance with none.
@Seal
I’m not saying a trial is disrespectful to the the event, I’m saying it’s a bad idea to use tax payer’s money that are already struggling to support the proposed trial that would cost millions of dollars and waste time on a man that would like to see every single American dead. I don’t want to see my hard earned money go towards that man in the name of fairness. What isn’t fair, is the innocent lives that were brutally taken.
In regards to being disrespectful, I think any human being that said 9/11 is not a tragedy is disrespectful.
WAIT. So you’re telling me Michael Moore and Elizabeth Hasselbeck don’t agree on political issues?! How shocking. Haha
Putting aside the issue of who you believe is right/wrong, Moore at least puts in the thought needed to come to his own conclusions. Hasselbeck on the other hand I believe has never truly sought out her own beliefs on any issues. She just follows the R stance at all cost. Just squawk, repeat, squawk.
The day that woman has an original thought I fear her head might just explode.
I can’t stand ElizaBITCH. Can someone please tell her that yelling and screeching aren’t effective debate tools? The more she yells, the louder she gets, the more idiotic and irrational she appears.
I hate Survivor for introducing (inflicting) this moron to the world.
I am moderate when it comes to politics – I’m an independente registered voter and vote according to the best candidate for the job.
I gotta ditto @Turtle Dove here: Every time I see Elizabeth Hasselbeck open her mouth I get the sudden urge to want to punch her in the throat or the vagina – whichever would be easiest – is that wrong?
Hasselbeck is just another loudmouthed self-righteous ignorant right-wing b****
I will never forgive Obama, Hilary or anyone else in that room for killing Osama without giving him the right to a trial. They were all wrong in that choice. Obama should have continued to listen to his counsel that told him not to do this. And the fact that he is going to use this murder as one of the reasons we should vote for him? Horrifying using a man’s death for your own cause.
She should, however, have gotten an intelligent one who also isn’t kind of crazy, like Megan McCain.
________
First of all, Megan is an idiot. Second of all, she’s anything but conservative. It seems that libtards only like conservatives who aren’t conservative, like Juan MexCain.
it’s called the friggin rule of law. but, since this country no longer observes those little niceties, the argument is moot.
michael moore was right, though, about iraq and he’s right that osama bin laden should have been tried in a court of law.
the funny thing is, osama prevailed. this country is ungovernable, fearful, and bankrupt.
EH is the most stupidest woman ever! So if an American terrorist get caught in another country eg Russia,they will jst kill him and say OH Well his not Russian and he does not have any rights so no trial 4 the Bad GuY and no Questions 2 y he did his bad deeds b it watever wrong he did?There’s a Law and human rights 4 a reason,Follow them!
Regardless of what other people deserve we should always hold *ourselves* to the same caliber of behaviour. Therefore there should have been a trial.
Apparently Elizabeth has some appeal with the public. I don’t understand why. I stopped watching The View ages ago because of her.
If the American Government exported democracy rather than propping up despots who brutalize their own people, to further American business interests, the terrorist threat would be reduced.
Regarding 9/11 and the response to it I read an interesting article earlier in the week that’s worth checking out: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/nationalism_in_the_aftermath_of_9_11_20110910/
THey are BOTH gigantic douchbags full of wind.
It is shameful that Moore makes money off of half-truth scare tactics.
At least Hasselbeck hasn’t become a multimillionare by deliberately skirting the truth.
Mary (#6): My sentiments exactly!!!
I do not appreciate Moore’s brand of sensational “documentary”, but he is definitely right that Osama should not have been murdered in the night, and Hasselbeck is a dim-witted fool, plain and simple. I more often would side with Moore than not on many topics, but not necessarily agree with him on why we share the same beliefs, and I would definitely not try to argue them in the sensational and often misleading way that he chooses.
@Lindsay – Your stance of “focus solely on ourselves and have a humble yet hands off attitude with the rest of the planet.” Sounds a bit like the views of Ron Paul. I wish people would get wise and vote for him!
Chris – Thanks for the lead. It was an interesting read. (All forms of religion have their extremists. Differentiating between those and the “normal” ones…where, therein lies the rub.)
This show is still on the air? Wow I thought it was cancelled by now. I never really liked Elizabeth, she’s annoying not really because of her views but because she’s the type of girl that I stomped on in high school. Uppity, vile and inconsistent and has no clue what she is talking about. I don’t have to see the interview to know I would disagree with her for the sake of her being a flake.
@teehee: So, two comments about ignorance, bias, and prejudice, and they’re both directed at “Americans”…not “some Americans”, or “certain Americans”. Talk about hypocritical! Don’t blanket all those of a certain nationality under one broad description of closed-mindedness; you’re just as ignorant and biased as all those backwards Americans, are you not? “Highly prone to prejudice and paranoia.” Yep, that’s all 300 million Americans that get that way, ain’t it? You’re ridiculous.
Elizabeth is shrill and shouldn’t talk over her guests. I think she takes her role as the “conservative” too seriously. I used to like her on Survivor now I loathe her as much as hydrangeas. I don’t always agree with Michael Moore, he’s over the top, but he is thought provoking and that’s always a good thing.
Michael Moore rocks!
She is a uninformed loudmouthed pitbull puppet of the Teaparty. I turn off the TV immediately when she starts talking.
Why is Hasselbeck STILL on TV?