Octuplet Mom gets dropped by her publicist, hires agent

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Octuplet Mom Nadya Suleman has been dropped by the PR firm that was representing her pro bono. The company received death threats against their employees and clients, which led them to figure out that Suleman was more trouble than she was worth. I would bet that she wasn’t an easy person to death with, either, considering how self righteous and duplicitous she is. Suleman now has an agent, who has also worked with controversial pastor Rick Warren and the parents of the now 11 year-old McCaughey septuplets.

The public relations group that has represented octuplets mother Nadya Suleman is stepping down because of death threats, its president said Saturday.

Joann Killeen also said the mother now has an agent: Wes Yoder, the same man who arranged book and music deals for the McCaughey septuplets a decade ago and publicity for controversial pastor Rick Warren.
The Killeen Furtney Group was ending its free representation after receiving at least 100 graphic e-mailed threats and swarms of nasty voicemails that went to the Los Angeles agency and even to some of its other clients, Killeen said.

Some messages threatened Suleman but others were aimed at her spokespeople.

“They’d put me in the wood chipper and throw me in the bottom of the ocean and hope I die,” Killeen said.
“We’ve gotten her through the worst part of it and now they are putting their venom and anger toward us,” Killeen said.

Word that the 33-year-old single unemployed mother is receiving public assistance to care for the 14 children she conceived through in vitro fertilization has stoked furor among many people.

West Los Angeles police are investigating the threats.

“We’ve never had a public reaction to us representing a client pro bono like this, ever,” Killeen said.
Suleman, who gave birth last month, is living at an undisclosed location. She has set up a Web page to accept donations to help the octuplets, who remained hospitalized.

Meanwhile, Killeen said Suleman told her that she had reached an exclusive representation deal with Yoder.
His Ambassador Agency, Inc., bills itself as the oldest Christian-based talent agency in the United States.
The agency, which has a Nashville mailing address and a street address in Franklin, Tenn., promotes speaking engagements, publicity and media deals for clients.

Killeen said the agreement with Yoder and her agency’s decision to step down were unrelated. She had not yet contacted Yoder and was unclear on the specifics of Suleman’s deal with him, Killeen added.
A call and e-mail left for Yoder before dawn on Saturday were not immediately returned.

A decade ago, Yoder was the spokesman and agent for Bobbi and Kenny McCaughey, the Iowa couple who had the world’s first surviving septuplets on Nov. 19, 1997. They were later involved in book, music and TV commercial deals.

[From News.AOL.Com thanks to Carboangel for the tip]

Some of you expressed doubts that Suleman had actually received death threats and thought it might be a ploy for sympathy. Given the very strong reactions people are having to the story of a single mother on public assistance having 14 children through IVF I wouldn’t doubt that there are people making (hopefully idle) threats.

Meanwhile Suleman has given an interview to The Daily Mail. They kind of blur the line between a legitimate interview and a fabricated one by translating some of what she supposedly said into Brit-speak. They claim she spoke to them though. Suleman spouted some of the same sanctimonious crap she was telling Ann Curry about how she’s such a great mom because she’s present for all of her kids and is trained in dealing with children. Of course her own mother, the primary caregiver for her older children, has given public statements to the contrary and claims that her daughter cannot care for the six kids she had at home before her record-setting birth of eight. Other details in this interview include the fact that one of her children is heard begging for a DVD and that she now has a nanny.

‘There’s no such thing as a supermum – but I’m trying!’ this one-woman baby machine trills, as she attempts to justify her decision to undergo the fertility treatment which produced the world’s first all-surviving octuplets, even though she already has six young children – but no husband, job or money.

‘I’ve had to retrain myself with counselling programmes. You learn about children and what they really need, and how to do play therapy, and I really am able to apply that to my own children. A lot of parents don’t have the advantage of that.

‘People ask me how I will be able to afford to take them all on holiday. But children don’t actually need holidays. They’re just an adult creation. Children just need you to sit and talk to them in the beauty of nature. When it comes down to it, all they really need is grass and worms.’

You suspect that Suleman, 33 – who appears to have conveniently forgotten the material price of her self-confessed obsession with procreation (it will cost the Californian taxpayers up to £2.1million in medical fees and welfare handouts) – would blithely gabble on in this vein for ever if no one interrupted her.

With a child’s exquisite timing, her oldest son, Elijah, does just that. ‘Mom, mom, take me to the DVD store!’ he demands.

Listening to Suleman as she defends her decision to raise 14 test-tube children without what she calls quaintly ‘a significant other’, what strikes you most is her unswerving self-belief.

She is utterly convinced that no one is better suited to the gargantuan task that will confront her next month when the eight newborns are expected to come home.

All around her, however, the evidence suggests otherwise. She may see herself as an enlightened Earth Mother, but her chaotic world is like that of the nursery rhyme about the old woman who lived in a shoe and has so many children she doesn’t know what to do.

Take the house where the octuplets will live. With jawdropping naivety, she describes the three-bedroom bungalow, which belongs to her mother Angela, as ‘one big play den’…

For reasons that will become clear, each of these six [older children] were conceived through IVF, just as the octuplets were. They were born between 2001 and 2007 – four single pregnancies and one set of twins – and, if Suleman is to be believed, all 14 of her offspring have the same father.

‘The twins are always fighting – they don’t look alike and they’re totally different from each other,’ she says, trying to calm squabbling two-year-olds Caleb and Calyssa, who are doing their best to sabotage her first newspaper interview.

Then there is seven-year-old Elijah, the oldest of the six. He suffers from attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. His condition is evidently so serious that his grandfather Edward Suleman, an Arabic interpreter who works in Iraq, generously pays £1,250 a month for him to attend a private school.

Amerah, at six, seems mercifully healthy and well-adjusted, as does five-year-old Jacob, but Aidan, aged three, is autistic – which makes him, in his mother’s eyes, ‘a special blessing’ – and Calyssa has speech problems.

In addition to her £340-a-month state-provided food stamps, Suleman receives about £550 in benefits for each of the three children diagnosed with disabilities, giving her handouts of almost £2,000 a month in total.

As the octuplets are not yet three weeks old, and still spend most of their time in a row of incubators, no one knows what kind of long-term support they might require.

But since Noah, Isaiah, Nariyah, Josiah, Jeremiah, Jonah, Maliyah and Makai (each of whom has the same middle name, Angel) weighed only between 1lb 8oz and 3lb 4oz, and they were born ten weeks prematurely, it seems likely that Suleman will soon be applying for a lot more state aid.

At a time when millions of U.S. citizens are struggling with terrible financial hardship, no wonder that one TV interviewer described her this week as ‘the most vilified mother in America’.

Nor that she has been the subject of so many death threats she was forced into hiding after the births.

‘That part has been a nightmare,’ she told me. ‘They had to sneak me out of hospital. I had to be away from the children for two days and I couldn’t stop crying. But I needed to get out and be secure.’

She spends most of her time at home, watched by a security firm and besieged by the world’s Press. When her babies leave hospital, the scrutiny will only intensify.

Even with the help of her nanny, plus the army of church volunteers who have promised to help, you wonder how she will cope when 14 children are billeted in three cramped bedrooms.

[From The Daily Mail]

How is this woman collecting food stamps and disability for her three children when she’s also sponging off her parents and having her father pay a whopping $1,800 a month, or $21,600 a year, for private school for just one of her children? Her father must make a good living as an interpreter in Iraq.

This is a woman who will stop at nothing to have as many children as she wants. She’s a sociopath on a mission. There’s also this gem deeper in the article: “She has, for example, changed her first and second names several times during her 33 years.” Now why would someone change their name multiple times unless they needed to escape their past? This story is far from over and someone is going to dig up even more dirt on this woman. I just hope that the media outlets steer clear of paying her despite the public’s interest. Her children deserve to have the necessities to live along with a loving household, but she shouldn’t be cashing in on her situation and the taxpayers should not be bankrolling this, it’s outrageous.

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44 Responses to “Octuplet Mom gets dropped by her publicist, hires agent”

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  1. lunachick says:

    The one possible bit of good I see coming from this disatser is Child Protective Services will be watching this situation like a hawk.

    I hope those children are taken from that situation in short order and are given to loving, stable adoptive parents. I can’t see them all staying together, but maybe they can be kept in pairs or sets of 3…I don’t know, that’s for the experts to decide.

    I just hope the intervention happens quickly, because the future for octo-psycho cannot be very bright. I hope the children can be set up for a much more solid, stable future than she could possibly provide.

  2. yadira says:

    Sad to say but maybe the children would be better off in a home with someone who can dedicate some attention to them instead of being with their biological mother who is obviously mentally unstable.

    So sad and selfish

  3. Orangejulius says:

    I watched the interview with her in it’s entirety last night and was stunned at how spooky she was. After seeing that, I really fear for the safety of those kids.

  4. Lauren says:

    Oh good, she can’t pay for food or medical care for her kids but she can afford a publicist and an agent to keep her in the news. I hope CPS is watching her and takes her kids away, she is obviously only about herself.

  5. MsTriste says:

    With each new revelation, I wonder about child protective services. What will it take for them to realize this woman has a severe mental illness and is in no way mentally or financially able to bring up 14 children?

  6. Diva says:

    Yep, Luna, the more the press covers this story, the more they’ll dig. The more they dig, the more they’ll find. And then there might be an actual, legitimate, LEGAL reason to call for having her children removed, not the outrage fueled non-reasons being put out there now.

  7. Bodhi says:

    Her father is risking his life every time he goes to work to support his insane daughter. He should be looking forward to retirement, not fending off the media & caring for 14 children

  8. Persistent Cat says:

    Did someone seriously ask how she would afford to take the kids on vacation? I’d like to meet that person because that sounds like the dumbest person on the planet.

  9. Chiara says:

    California Child Protective Services was flooded with complaints.

    She claims to be using her educational funds for child rearing, this bears investigation.

    Her story is inconsistent. One of her statements referring to the embryos, “I have to have these babies, they are mine,” is countered with, “If one of my children said no, I would not have these babies.”

  10. Tess says:

    The hardworking public will pay and pay and pay.

    If it’s not for direct subsidies like food stamps and medical care it will be for indirect ones like the salaries of Child Protective Services staff, etc.

    Get ready to pony up folks. The era of individual responsibility is over.

    This is just the tip of the iceberg.

  11. Susan says:

    Yes, and her mother has been caring for the 6 already there and from what I read she’s at her wits end. She said, (about when her daughter gets home) “I’m done, I’m leaving”…and then sadly, the eldest son Elijah is quoted as saying “Take me with you, Grandma”.

    Her parents begged her not to have more kids, and no wonder…they are paying for and taking care of 6 already.

  12. YoMomma says:

    I wonder if the father will try to get his cut. I’d love to know who he is. Has anyone seen him or gotten a clue to his identity?

  13. aleach says:

    i feel so bad for the grandparents. what can they do now? of course she doesnt want to be taking care of all these kids, but i can imagine she wouldnt be able to just LEAVE them…seeing how their momma is a little…off…shes stuck.
    i feel bad asking my parents/in-laws to watch my baby every once in awhile (but they love it so…)! and theres only ONE of him!

  14. Leandra says:

    Her parents actuall went to the doctor who implanted the embryos and asked him not to do it. He did it anyway even though she was a single mother, on food stamps, and already had six children at home. Now it’s come out that he is crooked and dishonest. Put the babies up for adoption to three loving homes making sure that they will all be able to reconnect later with their other sibs.

  15. Lila says:

    I wonder if people would be rejoicing at the miracle of all this instead of criticizing if she were married instead of being a single, unwed mother.

  16. Veronica says:

    Her lips have that fake botox look–her nose looks plastic. Has anyone seen older pics to see if she’s had work? Where’s she getting the money for botox and plastic surgery?

  17. Jag says:

    With this new revelation over what the grandfather pays for one of the children to attend private school, has anything been said about her food stamps application being reviewed? I once had to apply for food stamps, and it was quite clear that I would have received much less had I been living with another person; at the time, I was considering moving back in with my dad. She lives with her parents and pays for nothing – is California so different in its rules for qualifying for food stamp aid?

  18. OXA says:

    She also did an interview with The Sun UK, in it she says she has a nanny she pays 350pounds a week(little less than700 bucks) who works 12 hour a day.
    She is having difficulties keeping her stories straight and I believe the publicist bolted before the crap hits the fan.
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/article2237580.ece

  19. Susan says:

    Veronica, yeah, there are before pictures up here somewhere…and she looks different…especially those lips.

    Lila, even if she were married, there is something very wrong going on here ($$ for plastic surgery, when she doesn’t have it, for instance). If she had a husband that made a lot of money, maybe things would be different (she might not count on her parents or the government as much)…but I don’t think it’s merely that she’s not married. The doctor aspect alone is not good…he’s now being investigated by the Medical Board of CA.

  20. Susan says:

    Apparently she was married for 4 years (I think) and she got pregnant with someone else’s child while she was married…I think that was IVF, too. Not long after that they split. If I were the husband, I’d split, too, if she didn’t want me as the father (that is if he had viable sperm – which I don’t know).

  21. Chiara says:

    One of the better suggestions I’ve heard is a Conservator be placed in charge of the finances.

    It would save further mis-use of CA funds, as Ms Suleman claimed, (education loans).

  22. Gigohead says:

    I do not approve of Octo mom or the money this woman spent to pump out babies, but I think it is rather extreme for people to send death threats to anyone including the Octo mom. Perhaps its called common sense, but death threats are against the law. DUH!

    People need to show restraint when it comes to wishing death on a woman who is the sole parent to 14 children. Not a smart thing to do.

  23. betty says:

    It’s about time someone spoke out about fertility clinics. Most people should know by now that multiple births pose some serious risks. If you knowingly give birth to a litter of children, they WILL have problems. Cerebal palsy, breathing problems due to underdeveloped lungs, developmental problems, small size…being premature causes lifelong problems.
    To raise one disabled child is tough enough. To purposely have 8 children, guaranteeing they will be premature is self-centered sociopathic behavior.
    The doctor needs to be held accountable.

  24. Leo P says:

    Lila, I don’t think her unwed status has much to do with the uproar. Being unemployed, supposedly disabled and collecting benefits, yet being able to afford numerous IVF treatments and obvious plastic surgery for nearly a decade would raise anyone’s eyebrows. She’s literally breeding indiscriminately to satisfy her whims, and her children are the ones suffering for it. I can’t speak for everyone, but that’s what got me pissed.

  25. dovesgate says:

    According to California’s welfare to work rules, she cannot get cash aid for the 8 new children unless she has been off cash aid for something like 22 months. Food stamps dont have that requirement as far as I know.

  26. doesshethinkatall says:

    for all the single mothers out there, I am not and I don’t thing most of the posters out there are against single mothers. We are against idiots that are costing others money and putting innocent children at probable risk. Why are most single mothers single mothers anyway? The fathers took off? They are divorced, widowed? They came to a stage in their life and decided they wanted to be a mother? Most of these instances started with a plan, she started with a fantasy. She just wanted babies. she does not want a father to be involved, at all. we are not talking about a woman getting an abuser out of the situation. a man who took off. Or a woman that has a large extensive family and friends that can step in. She basically believes she is close to supermom and believes she can handle it all. She is DELUSIONAL. Her mother looks like she is about to have either a nervous breakdown or have a stroke. she is the one taking care of the six and she is exhausted. Nadya is living in LaLa land. IF, and that is a large IF, she is getting a masters in psycology, she will earn about 60K -she won’t even earn enough to pay for childcare. She would not even have enough to support 7 in california. And the more she talks, the worse it sounds, her lies become more apparent and her sickness is more evident. It is weirder than a madeup movie, but unfortunatley, 14 children are involved

  27. RaraAvis says:

    She’s a whack job. The doctor should have his medical license revolked, and the state of California should sue him for the cost of supporting these poor babies.

  28. Autumm Leaves says:

    Disgusting. She is a baby momma with 14 o.o.w kids. She needs psych help and her kids to be taken away. Unfit.

  29. santacruz says:

    this photo is reminiscent of The Joker

  30. bobby costello says:

    The worsted is yet to come. Like all babies there will be ear aches, teething
    and the common cold and other childhood
    sickness(x8). This is before school starts. There is no mother in the world that can handle all of this alone. Then there are 6 other kids who are to young to help with the babies. These kids are at risk every day of their lives. With out help or money for meds. let alone food for them how are the all going to survive to be adults.

  31. yadira says:

    lilah, I think people are upset at the fact that she isn’t stable enough or financially able to care for these kids. I’m glad they are healthy but I don’t want to take away from my kids to support someone elsels 14 kids. she is receiving all kinds of government aid which actually is coming out of taxpayers money (me and other hard working people)

  32. AC says:

    This woman is obviously psychotic and I’m not supporting her very irresponsible decisions but the death threats are extreme and unnecessary and very sickening.

    And it amazes me how people like to bring up that the (according to an earlier poster) “era of individual responsibility is over”, and how taxpayers are footing the bill for her irresponsibility however, she’s not the only one collecting welfare and food stamps in California. It’s not as if taxpayers are singularly supporting her and no one else. So to blame her for using taxpayer funds in baseless because so many others use welfare and food stamps as well.

    I’m sure a more legitimate reason will eventually surface that will give legal cause for CPS to remove her children and put them into more stable homes.

    I’m no child care expert but ideally the older siblings shouldn’t be separated into different homes, as that will be very devastating for them. Hopefully they can remain together with one family willing to accept them all, while their mother gets some kind of psychological help that she obviously needs.

  33. Sarah says:

    A lot of people including myself are most upset about their tax dollars going to pay for the support of these children. Nadya isn’t the first and certainly won’t be the last unwed mother to continually pop out children with little to no means to support them. We can point fingers at Nadya and her doctor for being irresponsible but it gets a little difficult to call out poor mothers who can’t figure out how to use birth control. Now is there anything we can do about that?

  34. Aspen says:

    Lila…yes, they would be outraged to see a woman this destitute and unstable with so many children regardless of her married status.

    Look at the venomous hatred spewed on (the name escapes me at the moment) that family that has 18 of them. They are married, stable, and self-sufficient financially.

    That said…yes, I always feel better when children have two parents. So should you.

  35. Dana Da Designated Hata says:

    You’ve got to be kidding me right? This is some bulls@*%!

    While children are a blessing…this lady is a complete JOKE. How dare she purposely have this many children with no way of supporting them other than through the hard working tax dollars provided to her through public assistance!

    Why on earth would you continue to have more children on top of the six you already had with no real way of taking care of them? I’m just waiting for child services to step in.

    This takes milking the system to a whole new level. You damn right people are angry and they have every right to be.

    She’s not even a celebrity but she has well had a publicist and now an agent?!? I guess she needs someone to spin this story in a positive light so that people or major corporations will sponsor her F’d up cause. Man…this lady is looking for free everything: house, vans, food, diapers, medical, day-care…you name it.

    Well she ain’t getting anything out of me…except my tax dollars!

  36. BillyBob says:

    I’ll say it again. She is looking for a reality show TV offer. How else could you explain the agent and the plastic surgery?

  37. HeatherLC says:

    This woman is F’ing NUTZ! There are so many people in this world that cannot have children nor can they afford to adopt due to money. It’s people like her that make it so hard for good people to even have one child let alone the 14 she has. What kind of life can she give these kids? I have one child and would love to have another; but I cannot, I am trying to adopt because there is a reason that single people cannot have a child naturally, you need a partner! There allways is a need for a Partner regardless Gay or straight every child needs 2 parents not one. Even if the child lives with one parent and the other on weekends, there still is a need for both. she is a quack and she be stricken of her Uterus 12 kids ago.

  38. Brandie Renae says:

    what Nadya has done, while unconcionable, does *NOT* warrant death threats. Nor does it warrant threatening those representing her. I’m very embarrassed that there are those in our country believe death threats are appropriate in this case (much less any other)

    I personally don’t have a problem that she’s single. what I *DO* HAVE a problem with is that 3 of her children are receiving disability payments, and she’s getting food stamps while she had enough ‘savings’ for yet another fertility treatment!! even if it had only resulted in one or two more children – it’s STILL unconcionable given that she had not one, not two … BUT THREE children with special needs!!!

    This is a matter of responsibility. Her FIRST responsibility was to the children who were already here – for a good quality of life for them (which they really couldn’t have had — given that there were 6 children CRAMMED into a 3 bedroom house – 3 of which have special needs! WTH??!

    I had ONE … count em … ONE child who was born with special needs, and he ‘only’ had a heart defect!! While I wanted one more, I took care of him. *he* was my first priority.

    I couldn’t imagine birthing a TRIBE, much less bringing them to adulthood. The sperm donor should have put his foot down and said ” you need to concentrate on what you have already – I wont’ be a party to more”

    Single … NO DEGREE?! SIX children?!? … there’s a time progression NORMAL people go through in regard to family. You don’t pop out children like a human pez dispenser without a means to support them FIRST. Disability payments are not income. Typically, it’s barely enough to take care of the person dealing with the injury!!

    One has to be able to provide for them – you do NOT count on others to do it for you. The *only* one you can truly count on is yourself – otherwise you could come up short. Children deserve more than teetering upon the unknown.

    In this woman’s case, she’s coming up short all around.

    The TRUE losers in this equation, through no fault of their own – are the CHILDREN.

    In this respect, we need to save the Vitriol – and look at caring for the INNOCENTS here.

    She may have birthed the children, those may have been her eggs – but without the entire country coming to her aid (in the form of a website begging for donations) she CANNOT raise these children on her own!! She’s trying to paint herself to be a marytr – and she’s the one who brought this upon herself. not to mention upon those who had nothing to do with the situation — the children.

    She bought and paid for every one of those children to be IMPLANTED … the last batch – they all took …

    What do NORMAL people do when they cannot afford to raise their babies? they MAKE SACRIFICES … and give them up for adoption…

    — yes, it’s hard — yes she will miss them — yes she *WILL* cry. She has to think about what is BEST for the unplanned part of her plan to have *one* more.

    In the grand scheme of things, to hold onto them is tantamount to the worst form of selfishness.

  39. tanya says:

    The best thing that could happen would be for her mother to throw her out!

    She would have to quit using people…taxpayers, her parents, her own children to gratify her selfish needs.

    This would be the best thing for the children as all the kids would be placed into adoptive homes.

    The doctor who worked with this woman should do 20 years of jail time.

  40. Brandie Renae says:

    I’m sorry, but throwing her out wouldn’t be the best thing. That would merely fuel her – push her to ask for even more donations given her new ‘dire’ straights. At this point, it’s a little late in the game for “tough love” that should have been employed a few IVF pregnancies ago!

    Further, jail time is not going to drive home any points here. It’s entirely too easy to declare “jail Throw him in JAIL!!” Jail should be reserved for REAL criminals – not idiots. I don’t care how much schooling the DR has — he’s an idiot.

    The Dr’s “sentence” should be to ensure these children reach adulthood AND to pay support for them. I’m not talking a nominal fee either. Whether they’re adopted, or raised by their mother — the DR should have to pay for their upbringing.

  41. TxBreed says:

    This woman is crazy and she is trying to use those babies for profit. It’s sad but it’s the truth and I wish it were a crime. So she could get locked up and those babies could go to a more stable family with the right up bringing.

  42. anon says:

    Some additional info (and corrections):
    Her PR Firm was working PRO-BONO (free). Her Agent does not get paid until SHE does, and they only take 10% of her earnings.

    She HAS a degree. A Bachelors degree. It’s the Masters degree she hasn’t finished.

    Her mother was paid $40,000 to make negative comments about the Octuplet Mom to the news media. Hence all the backlash from the family.

    I have read from several sites that she is hispanic. She is not. She is Ukranian/Iraqui. Her ex-husband is hispanic.

  43. Victory says:

    RE: some additional info (and corrections):

    It’s obvious why that was marked “anon”.

    She didn’t have to read on websites that she was not hispanic, she would already know that…and who cares? No matter what your background is, your actions are totally irresponisble and your mental INstability is not a question, it is a fact.

    It is also a fact that agents work for a percentage, that is NOT “PRO-BONO”. Stop making it sound like something it isn’t.

    You may have a degree, but YOU DON’T HAVE A JOB. And you haven’t had one for awhile, so what is a Master’s degree going to do? Lot’s of people with a Master’s degree are not working or are not working in their fields.

    Who paid your mother to say these things? Is there proof of this? Or is this another spin story? So many lies, this is probably just another one.
    Hiding behind a nameless post doesn’t change any of that.

    And if it is true, I hope you got part of it. It costs us over $3500 a month for 5 people, no babysitters or diapers anymore, two disabled but highly functional young men in the family…how much for 15????? One is disabled BECAUSE of his premature birth.

    My prayers are with those poor babies.

  44. Susan says:

    Is there proof of this? “Her mother was paid $40,000 to make negative comments about the Octuplet Mom to the news media. Hence all the backlash from the family.” I’d like to see it. Her mother sounded for real to me, even if she was paid.

    I like Brandie’s comment…esp. this “You don’t pop out children like a human pez dispenser…”