I’m going to use this ^^ photo of Madonna from now on, okay? Anyway, I’m sort of surprised with how Madonna’s promotional tour for her new album has been going thus far. I don’t hate it. And Madonna hasn’t been a complete jackass. The quotes coming out of her Rolling Stone interview were at times on-point and at the very least, thought-provoking. She explained her BRIT Awards fall and her explanation sounded legit. And in a new interview, she’s taking on French politics. Sort of. In the past years, Madonna has been outspoken of her disdain for Marine Le Pen, the leader of France’s far-right wing part, the National Front. Madonna has gotten in trouble for openly comparing Le Pen to Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Now that everyone is on edge in France following the Charlie Hebdo massacre and the assault on the Jewish deli, Madge decided it would be a great idea to chime in once again on what she sees as a rise in anti-Semitism in France particularly:
In a recent interview with French radio station Europe 1, Madonna slammed “the level of intolerance” in France and across all of Europe, saying, it “feels like Nazi Germany.”
“We’re living in crazy times,” she said. “Antisemitism is at an all-time high…It’s not just happening in France, it’s all over Europe. But particularly in France. It was a country that embraced everyone and encouraged freedom in every way shape or form. Now that’s completely gone.”
This isn’t the first time Madge has spoken out on this issue. During a July 2012 concert in Paris, she flashed a photo of one Marine Le Pen (who heads the France’s far right Front National) with a swastika on her forehead. After the party threatened to sue, the Material Girl ultimately dropped the swastika and replaced it with a question mark on her forehead.
She did, though, speak out against this extremist party, calling it “fascist.” She stands by her criticism, too, saying (per the U.K.’s Guardian), “What I said two years ago is still valid today…The level of intolerance is so enormous it’s scary.”
To be fair to Madonna (what is happening to me?), Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said pretty much the same thing a few weeks ago, and he took it one step further by encouraging European Jews to move to Israel en masse. Not only that, but French Jews are actually moving. Following a rising rate of crimes and assaults on Jewish people and Jewish-owned property, French Jews have been emigrating to Israel in increasing numbers. What I’m saying is that Madonna might actually have a point?
Photos courtesy of Fame/Flynet and WENN.
Yes and no.
Madge is right about Le Pen but french jews do the aliyah since decades, it’s not new.
Antisemitism is (too) strong but it has nothing to do with German nazie.
The real problem today in France is the fact that the old antisemitism exists (even if it’s very weak compared too before WWII) but there’s a new antisemitism linked to Israel and its policy.
By the way, Madge should avoid to speak about things she didn’t study deeply, but it’s just Madge.
Yes.
I think there’s been an “insurgence”–for lack of a better word–of new anti-semitism, particularly in first world countries. Of course France is supposedly the “most” anti-semetic in Europe; however, here in Canada I see it, too–just less obvious.
Recently, there was a YouTube vide of a Jew wearing a yarmulke walking around France for hours (modelled after that street harassment video) and people actually spit on him. Mind you, I read this was in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood and of course, tensions are high but still.
I saw this vid and sure, there’s tensions between jews and muslims.
But there’s a real difference between areas. Those areas are not the Champs Elysée or other places in Paris.
I thought that video got (somewhat) debunked?
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/02/18/french-media-documents-israeli-reporters-fraudulent-paris-walk-on-muslim-wild-side/
(Not saying that anti-Semitism doesn’t exist in France, please note.)
Yes and no.
The vid is real but some parts are indeed manipulated, specially in the dubbing and the fact that the guy chosed the worst places in Paris to walk through.
Where in Canada? I’m in Canada, and I am not witnessing the same. Though I recognise there is a difference between cities and towns. As well as between regions.
*edited for grammar – still too early for me
@Sos101 Why do we speak about Canada?
This vid was filmed in France.
What does Canada has to do with it except stating that it’s two different countries with different history and demography?
@freebunny, Dana mentioned seeing anti-semitism in Canada
Sos101, curious–are you Jewish? I am, so I’m sensitive to anti-semitism. I live in Saskatchewan where there aren’t many Jews. The synagogue has been spray painted on on a few different occasions. When I went to school, people would use “Jew” as a derogatory term.
Then again, Saskatchewan is a traditional “farming” area with lots of rural locations which are overwhelmingly populated with people who have not been outside of Saskatchewan or been exposed to many minorities or Jews. I’ve lived here my entire life.
The fact of the matter is that 6 millions Jews were slaughtered by Christian Europeans, not ‘Muslims’ or any such scapegoats.
Hi Dana, sorry to hear that, it makes my blood boil. I’m in southern Ontario, btw. You’ve got a friend in me!
Anti-Semitism is linked to hatred of Jews, period. Please do not try to justify murdering Jews and others in cold blood in France, to geo-politics in the Middle East. Bigots will always find an excuse for their hatred regardless of whom they choose to hate. France has ALWAYS been rampantly anti-Semitic, right now it’s just more out in the open since WWII.
I don’t justify anything, and certainly not antisemitism.
Just look at sociological studies in France and you’ll realise that there’s a new antisemitism in France which has very little links with Barres or Drumont.
Sorry, Izzy, but that’s nonsense.
Every single terrorist attack in Europe has been justified by the perpetrators themselves as either incited by Western intervention in the ME or Israel/Palestine or both. Every single one. It doesn’t matter whether we find these reasons unpalatable, offensive, evil or even understandable. They are still the reasons.
Likewise, the rise in Islamophobia is accounted for by 9/11, 7/7 and the other domestic Islamist attacks, the rise of ISIS and the other Islamist groups, and the tactics of the military wings of the Palestinian resistance. It doesn’t matter whether Islamophobes are right or wrong to fear or hate Muslims because of these things; these things are still the reason why Islamophobia is increasing.
@Sixer: I think Izzy was stating that France’s anti-semitism isn’t linked to the rise of Islamophobia, as France has historically had serious issues with anti-Semitism. But that said, because of those modern geopolitical issues the two are intertwined.
I am sorry but I cannot let this one go.
When has it become OK to say that France has ALWAYS been anti-Semitic?
How about those people who risked their lives (and those who paid for their lives) to protect Jews during WW2? You’re going to say that it’s not the majority of the people and you’re right. But when you haven’t experienced war, I don’t think we can judge the French who didn’t say anything.
How about the French today who are in good terms with Jews? That’s the very majority of us.
As you’ve understood, I am French, and I am not anti-semitic, and neither are the people I know.
What happened in January shocked France entirely. Didn’t you see how much people there were in the Streets? You just CANNOT say that France is anti-semitic. Some people in France are, but not France, nor the French.
Please, stop your clichés, open your books and learn a little, have different sources of information other than Madonna – who by the way would say anything to draw the attention on her, and sell her bombing album…
The problem is when you have the leader of a the State of Israel saying that he speaks for all jews in the world, many start to actually buy his stupid rhetoric and associate Israeli policies with just being Jewish.
That kind of rhetoric is stupid. Netanyahu doesn’t speak for the Jews of the world just like ISIS doesn’t speak for the Muslims of the world. Wish someone would actually call him out though.
Sorry to says it this way but you are soo wrong. Like Freebunny explained it, there are still some old (think wwII) anti-antisemitism. But what’s rising is the anti-Israel opinions/feeling. And sadly, just like some confound Muslims and Islamist, some confound being jew and being pro-israel.
I totally agree
Please. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, it’s necessary with that country’s atrocious human rights record. I think it has more UN resolutions or violations of UN resolutions than any other country in the world? And the insane number of Jews that speak out against Israel should show everyone that it doesn’t necessarily represent Jews, even if it calls itself a Jewish state, same as how ISIS doesn’t represent all Muslims and Islamophobia is on the rise. Just because our western governments support one group of terrorists over another, doesn’t make it legitimate. That is where the rise of anti-semitism is coming from, people associate israel’s actions with all Jews, which is wrong.
Hannah, I do agree that any criticism of Jew or the Jewish state is immediately dismissed as anti-Semitic. The pro-Jew group, CAMERA, has been at war with the NYTimes here in NYC, putting billboards everywhere saying something like “all lies/all slant/all slander STOP THE BIAS” Unless you have unopinionated support of Israel, so many don’t want to hear anything you have to say. Even Israelis are sick of the manipulation en masse. However, I do believe that the rise in islamophobia is in turn feeding the rise in anti-semitism. Both sides are so extreme, no one wins.
Anti-Israel rhetoric has been associated with anti-Semitism repeatedly. As for the human rights record, it is the only country in its region that doesn’t espouse anti-gay, anti-woman theorem. Nor does it discriminate against anyone but the terrorists that attack Jews and simultaneously their own people. There is no genocide or the use of rape and slavery, as has been documented in many other countries.
The term missing here is Zionism. Israel may be a “miracle in the desert,” but the govt has all too often espoused what in effect is nationalism. They also helped to cement the geopolitical debacle resulting from the short-sighted post-WWII creation of a nation-state amid a cluster of Islamic nations.
As a Jew I can be a non-friend of Israel, yet also be profoundly offended & shocked by antisemitism (btw, aren’t most arab peoples semitic as well?). The age-old problem is that religion & politics intermingle so easily. The Roman Catholics in England were primarily persecuted because the State believed the RC’s primary allegiance was to the Pope & his policies. So, each one was a potential 5th Columnist just waiting to do the bidding of the Pope & retake England for the Faith. Prior to that, Jews were expelled in great part due to the assumption that their involvement in banking (one of the few trades permitted them) was transforming the People of the Book into some sort of evil NWO-esque power.
Digression? Yeah, sorry… Just… So very frustrated. & hate Madge actually making a somewhat accurate statement re geopolitics ;).
Bitca
Another digression (not that yrs was):
Those fearful English Protestants had good reason to believe that. (In fact, they really did, but here I’m being ‘amusing’): In both my Catholic primary schools in the 60s, we used to sing hymns of defiance and outright treason! Vowing to turn this infidel land back to the Mother Church. Blimey. I look back and wonder how the hell it was permitted! 🙂
Madonna has done more to bring feminist, LGBT, & race issues to the public eye than any other performer before or since. It is a mystery to me why she is getting all the hate from people who ought to know better. She has always been vocal about what she percieves to be wrong or unjust. I hope nobody manages to silence her EVER!
The big problem in Europe right now is Islamic fanatisism, due to the fact that a significant proportion of Muslims never integrate into Western society, and hate our liberated & enlightened values. That is where most of the anti-semitism is coming from. The big problem for Jewish people in Europe is as a result of the Nazi, hateful tendencies of muslim extremists, who are causing full scale genocide in large parts of the Middle East & Africa.
Calgary too, Dana. http://o.canada.com/news/palestine-israel-supporters-clash-at-calgary-rally
We’ve been lucky for a long time, but I fear that might be changing.
Seriously, that top pic looks like a still from a re-make of Sunset Boulevard….yikes
I thought the same thing…
..well, that and she looks like Bette Davis in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.
My first thought, too…..lol
I am Jewish so I appreciate the sentiment.
She 100% correct. France is at a loss and it’s scary!
Not only France but also all European countries
Not all european countries. You can’t say all European countries.
I live in Belgium ( where they not too long ago had the fatal Jewish museum shooting) and it is on the rise in a lot of European countries–France, Germany, Sweden amongst them. So no not all Europe but enough that the EU is really concerned.
This is interesting and silly at the same time.
Let’s remember how Israel became a state. Few countries were willing to accept the Jewish refugee’s from WWII. The US could not take the mass immigration and the big decision was to cut Palestine in half.
This is one if not the major reason why we now have a Middle East conflict around the world.
What is silly about this conversation? Most European nations are anti-Jew nothing has changed in over 50 years.
Sadly, Israel has done nothing to rectify it’s perceptions. It is a war torn state. I say this as someone who has visited, have friends who are citizens and relatives who are Jewish.
Just prior to WWII, our administration was asked to accept refugee jewish children from Europe..Roosvelt refused them, but England accepted them. Those children suffered many traumas, but they survived with their lives. This true story inspired the Lion, Witch & the Wardrobe, as British children were also displaced. Israel has been war-torn for THOUSANDS of years.
Most countries refused entry to European Jews in the 1930s. The book about Canada’s part in that pretty much sums up the attitude of the rest: “None is Too Many.”
http://www.worldcat.org/title/none-is-too-many-canada-and-the-jews-of-europe-1933-1948/oclc/9683471&referer=brief_results
In the US, Roosevelt took in1,000 Jewish refugees, who were interned in Oswego, New York.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/07/65_years_ago_this_summer_osweg.html
Yes, let’s drag the Palestine/Israel mess into everything because that’s the appropriate thing to apparently do.
There was antisemitism in Europe long before Israel was made a state. It’s nothing new and not a result of Israel being formed as refugee for the Jews. Israel has tried and continues to try not feeding into war but is never protected or defended. There’s not much they can do on their own, and blaming the Middle Eastern conflict on the Jews as a whole is ridiculous and irrelevant.
Thank you Dani for your very astute comment.
Firstly, as far as Israel having the most human rights violations according to the UN, the UN has a LONG history of being anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t exactly take what that farce of organization has to say about anything, it’s a joke. They also have a history of protecting some of the worst countries and dictators in the world. I am a born and bred New Yorker and I have always said they should turn that building into luxury condos as it is a disgusting waste of space.
Secondly, if we had rockets being fired on our country on a daily basis, I wonder how we would feel? Enough really.
If these horrific things are really happening, and it sounds as though they are, then good for her for bringing them attention. I think (obviously) that antisematism was at an “all time high” under Hilter, when the government’s mission was to eliminate Jews, so that was sort of a questionable statement, but look what happened then when everyone turned a blind eye towards what was happening then. I’m not a fan of Madonna’s, but this sort of intolerance should not be ignored.
The saying ‘bad things happen when good people do nothing’ is so applicable at the moment particularly where religion is concerned.
LAK.
The man who wrote that also foresaw the age of horrorism in which we live. When he witnessed the vile terror that came with the French Revolution, about which he’d been most enthusiastic, he conceded that bloodlust, in the name of sacred ideals, sadly takes precedence over those ideals.
Sorry, but the french government doesn’t turn a blind eye to antisemitism, just like the french law.
It’s unfair to compare the III° Reich and a real democracy as flawed as it can be.
Please read my post again. That is not what I said.
I agree but Madge mixed erything.
We can condemn antisemitism without mixing everything.
Oh, I see what you mean. No, that’s not fair.
GoodNames, I agree. There are lessons to be learned from the many mistakes world leaders made in thinking Hitler could be contained. A great book is In the Garden of Beasts by Erik Larson.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. While anti-semitism is on the rise let’s not forget about the fact that Christians are being slaughtered simply for their religious beliefs. The world is on the verge of some very disturbing and horrific times, it’s palpable. Will it rise up and fight or stand down and allow another Holocaust? Insanely frightening to think something so horrific could happen again.
There is antisemitisim but also Europe (and the rest of the western world) has a strong anti-Muslim movement happening. It is all quite frightening.
I agree, especially with ISIS and even more so after the paris attack.
Yup, it’s not just anti-Semitism but it is also anti-Muslims and anti-immigration in general, coupled with anti-establishment sentiments directed towards the EU, who is seen as “allowing” these things to happen because of what is perceived as the EU’s far-reaching powers.
+1,000
You perfectly summed up the situation. And if you look at the results of the last european elections, you can clearly see the rise of extreme right-wing parties in many countries. I’m 23 and when I grew up it seems like something like that would never happen. It’s really frightening.
PS: I’m french and really tired, sorry for my English
Europe is turning against all minorities, which seems very close to what happened in 1930.
Agreed. The economic downturn has made many people more intolerant of anyone different from themselves — Jews, Muslims, Roma, immigrants, you name it. Instead of trying to diffuse the situation, it seems to me that most governments are using it to justify further eroding personal rights and privacy. Plus Europe is on the verge of war, which makes everyone even more tense.
These are extremely scary times.
Just to note that capital flight due to the socialist Hollande government is a VERY strong reason for a great deal of French emigration of late, not confined to but certainly including Jews making aliyah. The French population in London has grown to such an extent that it now qualifies as France’s sixth biggest population centre. There are now almost 400,000 French people living in London – double what it was before the Hollande government.
I’m sure the rise of anti-Semitism (and the fear of it) is a strong factor, but it’s not the only one.
Madge has no understanding of a complicated and fraught political situation and shouldn’t be jumping on this particular bandwagon. It’s too incendiary. And I don’t suppose the French authorities are particularly grateful for Bibi’s contributions either, for that matter.
The French in London only immigrate because of the French tax
The french immigration in London started way before Hollande.
The immigration to Canada is very strong too.
Immigration from the EU to the UK (London) is primarily down to jobs, they come here as there are no jobs in the home country – hence why their is a rise in bad public feeling toward gov and Eu policies in it and in some places the immigrants themselves (many who come for the benefits and have no intention of working).
But back on topic; anti-semitisim has never really gone away in Europe, its always been there bubbling under the surface. The scars of WW2 run deep, old resentments still exist.
As for France, it’s not fair to judge the whole country based on what happens in Paris. However, there are many countries in Europe that are xenophobic and that isn’t helped when you have communities who refuse to integrate and demand special attention (Islamic communities – yes, that shade is directed at you – I see this everyday in London with your ghetto areas where you drive out anyone who is not of the same faith), creating a bomb waiting to go off.
Organised religion is one of the biggest evil’s of this world- look at all the death and destruction caused by it.
Agreed…religion needs to go…we’d all be way better off
It’s happening in Sweden as well. And almost no one dares point out that here, the increasing hate toward jews comes from muslims. After the murders in France the thing discussed in the news were not the awful deeds but how it would increase islamophobia. The cartoonists and the jews were the victims, not the islamic terrorists. Not a word about the fact that the jewish deli was targeted because it was jewish. An Israeli diplomat actually got the question on radio if the jews themselves weren’t to blame for the hate. I’m sorry, what? I guess the raped woman is to blame because she had heels. I just can’t with this country anymore. Jews are considering leaving Sweden as well. A jewish school’s field trip was cancelled last week because they couldn’t guarentee the childrens saftey. Jewish.chlidren. are being threatened. IN europe, in 2015.
sorry if I offended anyone. I’m just so frustrated with my country at the moment. It’s difficult to explain the media and debate climate in Sweden in one comment. And even if I succeeded you probably wouldn’t believe me.
Maria – I appreciate your inside perspective. I know very little about what’s happening in Sweden but your observations about Jewish children being at risk are illuminating. How can this even be an issue in 2015? Here in CA my only experience with anti-semitism involves paranoia about Jewish influence in Hollywood or finance, but never fear about the safety of Jewish children.
Yes I heard that paranoia mentioned here in sweden as well, but that’s not the main issue here. Jews (and synagogs) are being attacked on the street. There was a documentary not long ago on tv, where reporters dressed up as jews and walked in to an area heavily populated by muslims. They were yelled at, they were spat on, they were threatened. When they went back dressed as themselves and confronted the perpetrators and asked them why they had done it they answered” because they thought they were jews”. Just like that. They hadn’t done anything, they were just jews. And it’s ok to do whatever then.
From what I gahtered from media and blogs and twitter (people I trust in, not just random twitter posts) jews today are afraid to wear the David star, because almost every day, there’s an altercation. They don’t want to be pushed at, spat on or threatened. Understandable. I look ethnically swedish so I never had a problem with “showing” who I am. I’m also straight so no issues there. I can not understand what it feels like to be threatened just because who I am, but I understand the need to move away. Who would want to stay in a situation like that? Israel and USA seems to be the countries who are most jewish friendly. And if it is like you say, the anti semitisim in us is about jews controlling Hollywood, it’s a hell of a lot better than Sweden!
Not true, BettyRose. There was a case recently where an actor and his family were followed home from temple and spat upon and threatened for being Zionist pigs with ties to Israel. There were young kids involved.
Jen12 – I hadn’t heard about that, but it sounds like an isolated incident in which the children were unfortunately involved but not the intended target.
They and their parents were the intended target. The cops were nice, but since no one was physically harmed, there was nothing that could be done. It isn’t as widespread there, but it exists.
There was also an incident, I believe in California, where Jewish university students were taunted by Muslim and non-Jewish students during a campus gathering. I saw video on the news, it didn’t look good.
Maria. Yes. No one will say that the increasing attacks on Jews are at the hands of increasing Islamic extremism ineurope. It feels like one minority is being scarifier for another sometimes, because one will not fight back and one will go after anything with no qualms.
Agree with you 100% about the evasive language used to avoid labeling Islamic extremism. Who else is posting videos of people being burned alive in cages, or being lined up and beheaded? Who else is wiping towns off the face of the earth and killing thousands of their citizens? Who else is crucifying children or cutting them in half? Who else kidnapped hundreds of young girls to turn them into sex slaves, where one can only imagine the horrors they are facing? Who else is boldly declaring a Caliphate and an agenda of world domination? Only one answer to all of the above. Political correctness needs to stop now. Evil doesn’t stop to apologize for it’s deeds, and doesn’t give a damn what the world thinks as it continues it’s bloody rampage.
Nicolette:
I think it’s dangerous, at least in discussing rising antisemitism in Western countries, to blame too much of it on Islamic extremism. Right wing parties have always embraced some level of antisemitism, and it can be a powerful tool in diverting attention away from problems like unemployment and declining incomes. As can anti-Muslim sentiment. (In the US, of course, it’s undocumented immigrants from Mexico that get blamed for our problems!) As for ISIS, not sure what you mean by political correctness. I’ve not heard anyone hold back in condemning its actions. It’s taken a while for the West to figure out that negotiation is impossible, that’s true. Even Bin Laden made clear demands of the West – ISIS is just interested in destruction. And ISIS is victimizing everyone in its path, including Muslims who will not join them. The brand of Islam it claims to represent has never existed before, whatever claims ISIS may make.
The Obama Administration refuses to acknowledge Islamic extremism and has done so for years. He referred to the Boston Marathon bombers as “misguided kids”, the Fort Hood shooting as “workplace violence” and because of this label it almost took an act of congress to get the proper recognition for the victims and families. Obama also called ISIS “the J.V. squad” and blamed the media for inflating the groups misdeeds and whipping up hysteria. The murders that took place in the Jewish market during the violent incident in Paris? Obama stated the selection of the market was absolutely random.
Recently he pointed out the poor behavior of Christians displayed five hundred years ago. As recently as a day ago, ISIS has committed atrocities not seen by man in thousands of years, and Obama points his finger at Christian behavior from five hundred years ago? His latest answer is ISIS would not be ISIS if it’s members had jobs so WE need to find a way to build them up so they can find a gig. Don’t mention the fact that millions of Americans can’t find full-time employment.
moodygirl, is that true? What Obama said I mean. If so I’m disappointed. I thought it was only swedish politicians that were that stupid.
The sad part about Iraq is that it didn’t have to be. Yesterday an administration spokesman stated that we went into Iraq to spread DEMOCRACY. LOL! It was about oil. It’s not our business to tell other nations how to run their business but we just can’t help ourselves.
Yes. The increase in hate towards the jews have blossomed with the mass-immigration of muslims.
It’s easy for the rich to have opinions on the matter, they’re safe. It’s the people that are suffering the increase in violence and rape that come with these masses of culturally different and often strongly religious people. People with nice zip codes will never see or experience this though. But it’s clear that the people in europe is increasingly unhappy with it all.
Yes, I agree. Generally, white liberals have a lot to say while staying physically far away.
yes I know. And in Sweden the establishment are scared shitless of being called racist, so they let the islamists harass whomever they wish, women, jews, other muslims who aren’t muslim enough, doesn’t matter. Or maybe they are just afraid of losing the power. I don’t know. But it’s going to hell. I mean just the fact that their solution to returning ISIS terrorists are giving them apartments, jobs and a shrink so they can talk about how traumatic it is to behead people, rape women, throw homosexuals off of buildings and pour hot oil over children?! F-cking shoot me. Let me quote one of my muslim friends:”they should be beheaded as soon they set foot on swedish ground” sounds about right.
I can’t say anything about other european countries except Germany. I used to live in Berlin and they didn’t tolerate any anti semitism from anyone. They didn’t give a flying f about if there were muslims saying it. But it was Berlin so no wonder. They know anti semitics when they hear them.
Angela Merkel calls it like it is and I love her for it.
Angela Merkel is a kick ass lady 😀
I am reaaaally ambivalent about Merkel.
The fact that there are “no go” areas in any of these countries, says it all folks.
Antisemitism is rising in Europe, I live in England and there does seem to be more reports of antisemitism. However, I don’t really think it’s wise of the Israeli prime minister to encourage the French Jews to move to Israel, I mean they’re already pushing out (or rather, wiping out) the native Palestinians. Israel has only been recognized as a country for 66 years- there are Palestinians older than Israel. My grandparents are older than Israel. So with tensions already high with the Palestine/Israel conflict, I think it’s ridiculous that he’s encouraging more people to move there. There are children dying because of him, people being pushed out of their native land. He’s doing this to keep European Jews safe? What about the Palestinian people who are prisoners in their own home? Obviously, this isn’t an attempt to diminish the rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, but it just doesn’t sit well with me that he decided to do that.
+1
+2
I guess people who are being tormented in their own countries, like Sudan, shouldn’t move to a safe harbor either then, right? They should all just stay in their own countries and deal with what’s going on? Palestinians aren’t prisoners. If Hamas would stop their terrorism, things would be different, but they are more than willing to hurt their own people. Israelis have said over and over that they want to live peacefully side by side. But, that aside, here is yet more proof that people will take the Middle East situation and use it as an excuse for their own anti-Semitism. What do people being tormented in their own countries have to do with anything? I guess we should stop letting people into the U.S. on that same basis- job stealing, giving them money, etc. It is exactly the same premise. SMDH Same people who were cheering when the 3 Israeli CHILDREN were kidnapped, tortured and murdered by Hamas and it was celebrated by handing out candies and the cartoons of 3 Jewish rats having their tails cut off. Nice.
Criticizing Israeli policies is ABSOLUTELY not the same as anti-Semitism.
One can disagree with the Israeli Occupation without being anti-Semetic, jenn12.
*beat me to it tifzlan
Let me try again. The person JUST STATED that the French Jews shouldn’t go to Israel because there is no room for them. S/he stated that they shouldn’t go there because they would displace Palestinians. What, exactly, did I not understand? And most anti-Semitic issues lately have been linked to people having issues with Israeli policies, however you might feel about them. Here is a sentence from the post that you agreed with: “I mean they’re already pushing out (or rather, wiping out) the native Palestinians.” So, that person- and you, I assume, since you agreed- is sorry they’re being tormented, but they shouldn’t go where they’re safe because there’s no room for them. I will say that there is no occupation; simply put, Hamas hates Jews and wants them out. Israel would like to co-exist. So would most Palestinians, but they are under the terrifying thumb of Hamas, who is known to lie and use whatever propaganda they can to further their cause. Yes, I know about anti-Muslim people. It’s disgusting. But it’s usually right wing crazies who push that crap.
@Jenn12: it isn’t as easy as just escaping to a “safe haven”. Being classified as a refugee is a very, very difficult life: you’re essentially a person without a home, not a citizen of the nation you’ve fled to but unable to return home. It is a life of misery.
And Netanyahu has come under a lot of valid criticism for his continuing settlement of Palestinian territory. The Israelis are actually the ones that have ignored every agreement.
There is no Occupation? There’s not enough room for the existing Israeli Jews as it is, hence pushing into or *occupying* Palestinian territory. You do know that Israel illegally demolishes Palestinian homes and displaces Palestinians on the daily, right?
“Where they’re safe”?? Jen12, have you ever actually been to Israel? Are you aware that every.single.child is conscripted into military service in what is essentially an active war zone? (The same is true for Palestinians, but I’m speaking only about the Israelis here in response to the assertion that Israel is somehow a “safer” home for Jews than is Europe).
What about standard of living? Educational and job opportunities? The European Union offers significantly more opportunity in these areas to people of all heritages than does the tiny tiny nation of Israel.
Okay, we are going to have to agree to disagree on a few levels here, but what you’re deliberately ignoring is the fact that you agreed with someone who said there is no room for European Jews in Israel because Jews are wiping out someone else. The post is what I disagreed with and what you agreed with. It’s a shame that Jews are being tormented in their home countries, but they should not go to Israel because they are “wiping out everyone else”. So they should go where? The person with whom you agreed said that they’re pushing others out. So, whether or not we agree on other points, the European Jews who have nothing to do with the current state of Israel and have never lived there before, should still not move there because they are “wiping out” another race of people. They should stay where they cannot wear outward symbols of their faith, where their stores are attacked, and where they are spat upon and loathed because they will push out another race simply by virtue of being Jewish. That doesn’t sound like the anti-immigration people at all? Because, of course, America welcomes all people with open arms, right? No venom toward minorities at all, right? And we didn’t push people out of their own homes originally, did we? And Europe, they never colonized anyone, right?
I think you’re deliberately ignoring the fact that there isn’t enough room for *anyone* in Israel at this point.
Other countries are overcrowded as well. Would you deny anyone who feels unsafe a place to go? The statement was very clear: Jews are already wiping out Palestinians, so they should stay in their own country, despite the fact that European Jews have never lived in Israel and can’t be pointed to as starting anything. And I respectfully submit that you ignored everything I said.
@Jenn12: do you realize that you’re giving the exact same argument that Cher gave in Clueless? The “move some seats around and add a few more plates” style of diplomacy?
The point that others are making is very clear and you’re ignoring it: Anti-Semitism doesn’t justify further displacement of Palestinians. It isn’t a case of sharing space. And you’re taking an overly simplistic approach anyhow. Anti-Semitism in Europe tends to rise in periods of economic and political unrest. It’s a symptom of a lot of things going wrong.
I don’t agree with you. The point was made that Jews from another country shouldn’t move to Israel because of their faith, which you’re also making. It actually *is* fairly simple. Europe colonized and displaced people and the US sure as hell did and they both still do. Do we reject people who come here because they aren’t safe in their own countries because we are worried they will displace us? Since you feel they will displace Palestinians and they don’t feel safe, where do you propose they go? It doesn’t matter what causes the anti-Semitism; it matters that people don’t feel safe in their own countries. So if they want to emigrate, and you’re saying they shouldn’t go to Israel because they will displace Palestinians, where should they go? Would you reject Muslims fleeing Boko Haram or ISIS? Is there enough space for them in Europe or Canada, or are there already too many Muslims? What you are saying is that Jews should not go to a country where they feel safe, because they will displace others, despite never having lived there before. Apparently, they should just ride out the harassment and attacks, because they don’t belong anywhere else. Have you read about the last Jews in a Middle Eastern country- sorry, can’t remember the name, will google- who are being harassed and tormented and threatened due to their faith? Their lineage can be traced back 1000s of years and they have been told to get out, but can’t find a place to go. And they WANT to stay in their home.
Yes, why weren’t they angry that Yasser Arafat stole tons of money from his own citizens people and kept them down? Oh yeah, it is just easier to scapegoat others.
I agree that it’s irresponsible on many levels to encourage European Jews to move en masse to Israel, even setting aside the significant political considerations of a heavily disputed land region. What about the sustainability of a large population in a region with water scarcity? Moreover, what kind of message does it send to European extremists if they can effectively chase an entire population out of a region?
Yep. Well put.
America has a struggling economy, and a crumbling infrastructure. You’re okay with immigrants moving here?
Jenn12, you said something really powerful in your post “It’s a shame that Jews are being tormented in their home countries.” Yes, their “home countries.” In Europe, which is the “home” of European Jews. I can trace my family lineage about three generations back, to Eastern Europe, where my grandparents were forced out as refugees. They didn’t “choose” to leave. What we’re discussing now is a population of people who do not have to leave. Who have every means to stay and to challenge negative cultural influences in their home countries. The concept of ancient Israel provides a kinship among Jews in the Diaspora, but that does not make the modern state of Israel the rightful home of people born in Europe and North America, to claim regardless of the impact on geopolitical conditions.
And, yeah, the U.S. and France, and other Western nations have engaged in colonization and human rights abuses, but I see my role as an American to be part of the solution, part of which is having honest discussions about our history.
Betty, I’m sorry, but when you’re afraid to be yourself, to show your culture and wear your faith proudly, that is being forced out and marginalized. Though I appreciate what the current leader of France has been saying. No one is technically being forced out of Bosnia or the Sudan or Pakistan, but they’re being forced to submit to others who dislike them. I want to cry when I see victims of ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. Most Israelis and Palestinians wish to live side by side in peace and do so. Hamas hates Zionists, as they call them, and they force their own people into terrible living situations. When Israelis gave up a huge portion of land, Hamas forced their own people to let them blow up farms , irrigations, etc, because they once belonged to Jews, instead of letting the people use what was given to them. Hamas doesn’t hide their hatred, and people dismiss it for some reason as justified. For what it’s worth, Jews’ lineage has been traced back 1000s of years in Israel. And it wasn’t Muslims who drove them out.
BettyRose
Just want to say how much I admire your comments, always. You inform, challenge, explain, with great passion but without any stridor or finger-wagging, no snark, no vituperation. (I know I never manage it myself)
You leave the reader better off for having read your contributions. Thank you
“What we are discussing is a population of people who do not have to leave. Who have every means to stay and to challenge negative cultural influences in their home countries.”
People who are being threatened, spat upon and killed in the street should stay and attempt to change others perception of them? It’s easy to say this if you are not in their shoes. If I were in their position I would run for the hills so fast I would be awarded an Olympic gold medal. If I had children I would be gone yesterday. And I would go to Israel which has always encouraged Jews to return, this is nothing new.
I also see that people pick and choose their victims. I’ve always said that if illegal immigrants put up the same fight for rights in their own countries as they do in the US then they would make their countries of origin better for everyone. The majority aren’t leaving their home country because of violence but for economic reasons.
Thanks, WardLittell! I’ve definitely had my lesser moments, but what I love about this site is the great discussions and an overall tone of respect, even when things get a little heated. Great name, BTW!
@jenn12 I’m not saying the European don’t deserve a safe haven, nor am I lumping them with the atrocities committed by the Israeli Jews. As @bettyrose said, it’s irresponsible to encourage the Europeans to move to Israel when there is already such a tense on going conflict regarding Israel’s occupation of Palestine, especially since it wouldn’t make them any safer and would most likely mean more Palestinian land being occupied. I completely condemn any kind of prejudice, anti semitism included and my criticism of Benjamin Netanyahu does not mean I am excusing anti-Semitism. Anti semitism is rising in Europe but I find it difficult to discuss it without looking at SOME of the factor that contribute to it. As a 19 year old Muslim, I have heard many anti-Semitic remarks made by other Muslims, and while I completely disagree with their views, I am able to understand that the middle east conflict plays a part in this. Obviously this is in no way an excuse for anti-Semitism but it is important to look at any and all contributing factors to an issue like this, especially in young people who are usually a lot more tolerant than most adults.
I don’t agree with your statement about Israelis. I don’t think all Palestinians throw rocks at Jews, or launch rockets at civilian targets, or kidnap and murder children and then celebrate it with sweets and cartoons. I think that’s a minority of people. With that said, you’re saying in a nice way that you understand why people might hate Jews, or- as you put it- look at some of the factors contributing to it. Whether or not we agree on Israel, you are saying that the middle east contributes to people’s views on Jews. It would then follow that people would dislike Muslims based on atrocities going on in many other parts of the world, but hopefully people are too smart to accept that nonsense. No one should be judged on others’ actions, and while you’re saying it quietly, your statement still says to look at contributing factors. Why should all Jews answer for Israel, right or wrong? So I ask you: where should European Jews go? You’re saying that they displace people, despite never having been to Israel before. If they feel unsafe, where do you suggest they emigrate to? It really is this simple and complicated at the same time. “Don’t go to Israel because of your faith, even though you’re not wanted anywhere else, and you’re scared. I get that you have never even lived in Israel before, and anti-Semitism is wrong, but you have to understand that the middle East contributes to it, even though you’re not a citizen of it, so you should understand that people will be anti-Semitic because of it, even though it isn’t exactly your fault.” I don’t find that young people are all that tolerant, either.
@jenn12 I apologise for the wording in my response, I certainly didn’t mean that all Jews are accountable for the actions of some or that I understand the hatred toward Jewish people. I simply meant I understand that the middle east conflict does play a role in anti-Semitism, especially amongst a lot of Muslims in my experience, I’m in no way suggesting that it’s excusable, just acknowledging that it does have a part in this discussion. I was offering the middle east conflict as a possible contributing factor in the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, or rather England and France anyway. That doesn’t make it right, just like its not right to condemn Muslims based on the actions of ISIS or the Taliban, but unfortunately people.often do use the actions of some to condemn many. As for where the European Jews should go, I don’t have an answer for that but I do think it’s reckless to encourage them to move to Israel, as it wouldn’t be any safer for them or the Palestinians who are continually being forced off their land.
I strongly believe, my friend, that the day Palestinians and Muslims and Jews realize how much they have in common, and the shame there is in separating us, is the day that people will have much less success in marginalizing us. I believe that without Hamas, everyone would be living peacefully in Israel and I pray one day it’s true. Peace. P.S. This is why CB is one of the only places I read/comment- the intelligence of its readers.
I agree with you completely that Jews and Muslims are more similar than we think, and I too hope more of us realise this and stand together. You put it wonderfully, especially about how solidarity would make it more difficult to marginalise us. Love and peace to you too.
Antisemitism,Islamphobia and the hatred against the foreigners or no -whites are rising in France and in Europe also thank to the economic crisis and the political corruption
Just because Madonna said something doesn’t make it inherently wrong. If she were whining about low ticket sales because she belongs to a kabbalah cult I’d be the first to call her out on misusing the term anti-semitism, but she has as much right as anyone to comment on fairly well established trends.
And why condemn her for speaking the obvious?
I saw a recent story of a Jewish man and woman being spat on as they walked down a street in a certain area in France. They said something like you know what places are not safe to walk.
I don’t understand any of it and don’t want to. I find it scary that the world is becoming more and more racially divided. It is not hard to respect that people believe differently and live differently. How it affects you is how you let it. Such a shame and more people need to be made aware of it.
Oops, wrong spot.
That’s how I read it too.
KIDOA!
It’s happening in Canada too, but hand in hand with islamophobia. Just last week I read of two incidents, both in Quebec (where I live): 1) a handful of cars in an apartment complex parking garage were vandalized with swastikas, bullets and a death threat; and 2) a small community banned the building of a mosque because they feared what the Muslims would do. One woman was even quoted saying something to the effect of, “We don’t mind Muslims, as long as they stay very quiet.” :-\
What did she mean about that quiet thing? Where they supposed to call to prayer 5 times a day? If so, I understand her. I wouldn’t want to hear church bells 5 times a day all year round either.
Please let this pass as just a light-hearted interjection, but I’ve just been deafened by the 6 o’clock Angelus bell from the nearby Catholic church. At least it reminded me to adjust my clock!
bahahahaha see, religious buildings are the devil 😉
For once madonna is making total sense. The very thought of the Jewish community being brutalized in France, or anywhere as a matter of fact, makes me completely ill to my stomach. With all we know about Hitler and the holocaust how could anyone in government let it go this far.
They should really run a huge campaign reminding everyone about all th e past atrocitties suffered in the Jewish community.
And while I would hate that they should have to flee giving the hate mongers power, I can’t help but to think it would be best to find a safe haven in Israel for fear of more situation like the deli slaughter.
This should not be happening in 2015.
It’s not as people don’t know about the holocaust.
It’s far more complicated than reminding people of the genocide.
The truth is anti-Semitism never went away in Europe, it’s been there for nearly 2,000 years. It just rises and blows and then goes underground for awhile. All it takes is a few exacerbating factors and it flares up again. Frankly, I think the ethnic population numbers are against them. Were I a European Jew my bags would be packed and I’d hear for America. Europe really has had quite enough time on this. It’s not as if European anti-Semitism was born in 1948.
Great thoughtful thread, my points v simple by comparison.
Israel has and is doing awful things to its neighbours and to Palestinians within its borders.
Some of that is in retaliation to continued attacks on Israel, which are equally horrible. Israeli firepower however means it is in A much more powerful position than its attackers and retaliation is disproportionate.
Israel should long ago have withdrawn to its pre six day war boundaries.
it is not anti Semitic To be against Israel’s actions . However, some anti Israeli attacks veer into anti semitism. Most anti Zionists are not anti Semitic, some of course are Jews. But A minority use anti Zionism as a vehicle for their anti semitism. It would be a huge loss to Europe and a disgraceful indictment if there is a flight of Jews from Europe. Jewish people should not be forced from their home countries by the vile actions of a small minority . And Europe should be on guard about the ” casual” antisemitism that is evident in surprising places.
“They should really run a huge campaign reminding everyone about all th e past atrocitties [sic] suffered in the Jewish community.”
It’s not for lack of PR, Jews and other committed peoples have surely tried, but here are a few learning resources regardless:
http://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-features/special-focus/international-holocaust-remembrance-day
http://www.yadvashem.org/
This is why the slogan for Holocaust remembrance and anti-Semitism generally is “Never forget.” However, that doesn’t work for scapegoaters and deniers:
Here’s a good article about that: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/the-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/
It’s amazing the foresight Gen Eisenhower showed in 1945. He insisted the horrors of the concentration camps be filmed and documented right then and there because he said eventually people would try to deny such a horrible thing if they didn’t have the visual proof. And yet there are still deniers but they are pretty marginalized. Imagine if the films and photos didn’t exist?
French Jews living France in fear has little to do with Marine Le Pen and a lot to do with violence they suffer from a minority of muslin people. That the problem in a lot of country in western Europe today, even if it’s hard to say it without stigmatizing muslin people. It’s “easy” to fight “old” antisemitism (we know how to do this), to fight this new antisemitism not so much.
It’s not just Muslims. It’s a new Nazi breed, white as they come.
**extremists, NOT Muslims, is what I meant
Don’t care for Madonna, but in this case she is right. The amount of anti-Semitism in Europe is documented and on the rise. It includes a person getting on a school bus and threatening the Jewish schoolchildren on it, a young Jewish man being lured by a young woman, held for a few weeks while the parents were given ransom notices, and tortured so badly he died of his injuries, a Jewish couple raped and tortured because “Jews always have money”, and Jewish people removing their skullcaps, etc, due to torment. A rabbi in Florida was recently gunned down. People use the Middle East as the excuse, but it’s anti-Semitism, plain and simple. The nice thing is seeing how many people feel the opposite way and are speaking out, like in Norway, when Muslims formed a protective ring around a temple.
And, don’t want to get too personal, but my child’s best friend is a Muslim whose family is from a Middle Eastern country (not Israel). Her best friend wears a hijab, and my child has a Jewish star (our family is both biracial and interfaith, but she is Jewish). The comments the two of them get in a liberal place like NY has been heartbreaking. On a bus recently: “It’s the Muslim and her Jew! What are they going to bomb?” Lovely. The friend’s mom says, “It’s a shame that people don’t realize how much Jews and Muslims have in common.” And she’s right.
The ignorance of people is astounding.
It really is. Depressing.
Oh yeah, that comment totally sounds like a “liberal” said it.
I don’t think I fit any particular label. My apologies for offending you with the liberal comment, but I stand by a lot of it. Have rarely seen white people in inner city areas where there’s high poverty, nor do they send their children to schools known to be high poverty and with a high percentage of minority children. You can google it if you do not believe me. The comments aimed at my child and her friend are said by other children. I do not know what their parents’ background is. We live in a very mixed area, but it was white children who said it. Conservatives are straight up about their prejudices. Liberals feel they stick up for the underdog all the time, and that’s not so.
Don’t just take Madonna’s word for it. Pew Research says the same thing. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/the-world-is-becoming-more-hostile-toward-jews/386165/
Can someone explain why is there such anti-semitism in Europe? What did they do?
Forgive me for a very harsh response here, as you ask in all respectful decency, but really, we have a responsibility to KNOW such history, after the 20th century. How, or where, can it be unknown?
Edit: Freebunny, that’s my point. It is world history.
Sorry to be harsh to, but yeah there’s some parts in the world where european history is not that well-known. Nothing wrong with asking.
Umm, that was rude. You had an opportunity to enlighten and instead berated.
Moody
It was, and I’m thoroughly ashamed of it.
No defence, though I leapt to the conclusion we were speaking only re the Holocaust. Still, a boorish response and I apologise to everyone.
You are assuming they had to “do” something to be victims of hatred. That’s a false assumption.
+1 Goodnames, you nailed it!
I don’t think she meant it that way – it’s a general statement one makes while asking for an explanation. Again, rude and condescending.
I think you’re the one being rude and condescending, moodygirl. She said “what did they do?” I don’t think that’s open to many interpretations. I was just pointing out that they didn’t have to “do” anything to be victims. If I wanted to be rude and condescending, I would suggest that you learn to read and stop projecting your negative attitudes onto others.
I’m not being negative and it doesn’t matter if you don’t want to acknowledge it but your response was rude. She asked a question because she honestly did not know the topic, to respond the way you did – short, like her curiosity had aggravated you and wasted your time – came off as rude.
They did nothing.
There’s an old antisemitism in Europe more or less linked to christianity (the people who killed God, Jesus). This antisemitism, mixed with racism, led to the Genocide.
The new wave of antisemitism comes from the hostility to Israel. Those people think that western countries are unfair, they support Israel and attack muslim/ arabic countries.
So they think that when they attack jewish people in Europe they support oppressed muslims in the world.
But what we can see, at least in France, is the union of those two antisemitism because of their common “ennemy”.
I’m not trying to be touchy or nitpicky, but Jews have been persecuted since long before Christ was born. Antisematism is not “linked” to Christianity or a belief by Christians that Jews killed Jesus. Christians are not taught to think that way, except for a handful of Duggar-like idiots that can be found in any religious group. Who knows where hatred comes from, but I think there have always been superstitious falsehoods about Jews because some of them traditionally lent money and were often successful suggesting that they had some dark power and/or were in some conspiraracy to gain more power and money. That has nothing to do with Christianity.
In France, it is “le peuple déicide”, the people who killed God.
It’s the basis in France, then others theories appeared but at the beginning, in France, it was about the jews killing God and doing money.
Then you have Drumont and other who theorized antisemitism.
Today, antisemitism is of course different. Tha said I’m not sure CB is the place to analyse antisemitism.
GNAT, you’re a voice of sanity, but can we ask you to burnish your credentials by spelling anti-Semitism correctly? (hyphen optional, but I’m old-school). I know the article came out early in the morning. Thanks.
Jews were persecuted and killed by Christians during the Middle Ages in part due to the slander about their “killing” Jesus (the blood libel).
It’s not a fringe belief in modern times either. It persists.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/05/sorry-america-you-re-wrong-the-jews-did-not-kill-jesus.html This article references a report by the respected Anti-Defamation League.
. Who knows where hatred comes from,
It’s been pretty well sorted out by now. Jews are felt to be “outsiders,” resented for persisting and succeeding well beyond what their numbers would suggested, and perpetually scapegoated when times are bad. Jews know when current events turn sour, it’s time to start looking over their shoulders. I turned to everybody’s friend Wikipedia to learn more! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism
> but I think there have always been superstitious falsehoods about Jews because some of them traditionally lent money
Jews were forced into the money-lending role in the Middle Ages in Europe because they were excluded from other professions. The character of Shylock in Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice is the classic example — and continues to stir a lot of discussion about anti-Semitism (and Shakespeare etc ad nauseum). When Venice rose as a great trading power, the Jews were finally in a position to break out of the ghetto and become more involved in the larger economy.
> and were often successful suggesting that they had some dark power and/or were in some conspiraracy to gain more power and money.
And that brings us to the Protocols of Zion.
Boy, 2015 is off to a bang-up start, geopolitical issues-wise!
@It’s not…. Wow. That was truly awesome.
I spelled it with a capital S and was corrected by my spell check. I apologize for my laziness in leaving it at that. Sincerely.
I’m not going to argue point by point. You’re entitled to believe that Christians “invented” antiSemitism if you like. I don’t know how you explain the persecution of Jews for centuries before Christ was born, since you ignored that part of my argument, but you make several valid points.
Thank you for asking this question. Never be afraid to ask a question!! Sadly, you may not get a helpful answer because your question is party unanswerable—these current events are shaped by both distant and recent history, as well as current political, economic and religious pressures…emphasis on pressures. Human behavior is not always easy to understand, but it is somewhat predictible. We all should closely study history because it does repeat itself (especially when left unchecked…and sometimes even when checked). The study of past events is the best way to understand both current and future events….it’s oddly cyclical.
Seek out information about the history of the middle eastern countries–it is long and complex and has absolutely shaped our current world. As for the Jewish question — even if you just Wiki search the history of Israel since WWII and how and why Israel was formed, you will get an idea of the debate over the area that is now the homeland for Jewish people. While this was a somewhat “current” event, the land is ancient and its ownership contested.
The growing crisis is likely fueled by (not caused by, but fueled by) feelings of hopelessness. When people are uneducated (and/or are unwilling or unable to gather and process information for themselves), they are vulnerable to believing whatever they are told by groups who are offering a “solution” to their many problems. When you are struggling to survive and have little hope for progress, respect, or a better life for yourself and your family, you have little to lose. If you have been told who to hate (which is likely shaped by thousands of years of history) and you are incapable of thinking/processing otherwise, hate you will. Considering such circumstances, it is easy to grasp how this spirals into violence, then more hatred, and of course then…more violence. Jews, Muslims, Christians (look at British history to see how wars and persecution based on religion cycled around based on who sat on the throne from era to era), gays, whites, blacks, browns, women, the immigrants– whoever “they” are — groups of people are hated and oppressed by others because it’s human nature to want to control others and have the world function the way you deem “right.”
Feed your curiousity even if you just Google search countries, wars, or events for brief descriptions. Educate yourself and strengthen your ability to take in the information you read and hear—and then come to your own conclusions. There is so much power and freedom that comes from that. So keep asking questions and looking for answers, not matter how complex it all seems.
Thank you, Mumzy and Freebunny for being nice and gracious regarding my question. I am a Latin American immigrant living in the United States, a Catholic among many many evangelical Christians who has been discriminated against solely for being an immigrant, Hispanic and for being Catholic many times before. Of course I know history, @wardlitell, I know what happened in Nazi Germany, I know what happened to Jews in Egypt and I am well aware of the conflict in the Middle East due to the creation of Israel in 1948. I am well aware of anti-semitism, however I do not understand it. I am not “assuming” they did something in order to be the recipients of hate, violence and discrimination. Racism and xenophobia need no reason, maybe my question translated wrong into English, HOWEVER it was a simple question regarding Europe, damn it. I wanted a different perspective. And to be honest I am a little disappointed of the preciousness, the cynical and mean responses I got. I am sorry I am no expert in French society and foreign policy like the majority in here, but man some people do need to get off their high horse and take a message board on the Internet less seriously.
Ostone
You’re quite right, I’m very sorry. I read your question as meaning that you really didn’t know anything re the War etc, though that, if it were so, would be an education failure, not a personal one. My reaction was just badly put surprise. Everything you say is right and justified. I am awed by Mumzy’s reply. That’s how to do it right.
Can I add to Goodnames here? The link to Christianity is historical fact, but the key word is ‘historical’. In pre-Reformation Europe, the Church found that the one part of the population they could not own and control, the Jews, were doing very well without its interference, and weakened its control of money and political power. Blaming them for the martyrdom of Christ was an easy step, especially with a mostly illiterate but blindly devout congregation, and a clergy who wanted to preserve their positions. This excuse, ‘the Christ-killers’, was used to drive out Jewish citizens from countries they’d inhabited for centuries. With our modern knowledge we can see that the evictions were all to do with capital and power ( as prejudice continued to be) and nothing to do with faith. The one thing Oliver Cromwell is fondly rembered for in England, given his many atrocities, is allowing Jews back into England in the 17th century.
The Church has a shameful history in relation to Judaism, using wilfully misinterpreted scripture to back up its greed for power and riches. (It didn’t stop there….it forged documents to justify its grabbing temporal power all over a vast Christian empire.)
But it’s history, and isn’t linked in any doctrinal way to modern Christianity. (Still, we know how the Vatican cleaved to this ancient history in the 20th century). Fascinating, appalling history.
It’s power, at bottom. The Romans were harder on Jews than on other faiths, bar Druids, because they were so resistant and potentially cohesive. Anti-Semitism existed before Christ for sure, but the Church made it into a matter of practical dogma for centuries.
I have always wondered – is it not also a matter of convenience of a central enemy? Hitler convinced his countrymen that the Jews were an enemy of the state so he could solidify the general population; communists did the same with the wealthy. You can’t control people unless there is mass hysteria over an enemy you have convinced everyone to hate.
Thank you, @wardlitell for your explanation, now I feel like I have a deeper understanding of the subject.
Ostone, I was not trying to be mean, or precious (?) or anything else, merely to make what I think is an important point. You asked a question so I assumed you didn’t know the answer.
Good Names All Taken,
I know you are a frequent commenter on here and probably believe you are above reproach, but you are clearly out of your league in this conversation. Please take a step back and notice that you are the one being defensive and nasty when you are in America and do not have the whole picture.
Mika, your comment is so ridiculous I don’t even know where to begin. I’m nasty? And out of my league because I said Jews are not guilty of doing anything to cause the hatred against them? Why don’t you step back to whatever country is unfortunate enough to claim you and take your know it all, hateful remarks with you.
Judaism is OLDER than Christianity and Islam with both being offshoots of the first of the Abrahamic religions. History tells us that there has always been conflict between all 3 – thou there is no definite reason why.
Judaism has always been persecuted for one reason or another. It was one of the first of the monotheistic religions (you also had the Aten cult in Egypt and the Marduk in Ancient Babylon) and was persecuted by other’s because this was during a time in history where the norm was to worship many gods.
Sadly, Naziism (or the ideals behind them) never died out at the end of the war and we are seeing an insurgence due to gov’s and their policies. The rise in popularity with the nationalist parties is alarming – guess we haven’t learned anything from the last great war as we seemed destined to repeat it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404
Madonna mentions Marie Le Pen and Naziism, but this latest wave of European anti-semitism is actually the result of the large wave of Muslim immigration and the far left (who, in their zeal for political correctness and moral relevancy) are – likely out of fear – blaming the Jews for the rise of Islamic violence in their countries. I guess they think if they appease the Muslim hatred of Jews, they will somehow spare themselves. The far-right, on the other hand, is blaming the Muslim immigration. So what you end up with in Europe is the far Right engaging in Islamaphobia and the far Left engaging in anti-Semitism, resulting in the growing sense of nationalism throughout Europe…. which will lead no where good.
I don’t think the Far left are blaming the “Jews” living in Europe, but Israel. (And I have no more sympathy for the Far left than I have for the Far right).
They believe in a solidarity between Israel and the jews in Europe, so they blame everyone. By the way, it could be naive to think that far left people can’t be antisemitic.
The Far Left in many places have been using Israel as an excuse for disliking Jews, but refusing to acknowledge their anti-Semitism. It is as ridiculous as some fool blaming Muslims for ISIS or Hamas or Boko Haram. It is as stupid as hating African-Americans because Boko Haram is. Except that they blame an entire country for being anti-Jew, but pretend it isn’t the case.
Lili
Yes, and you make another important point: any extreme, Left or Right, as well as every kind of religious extreme/fundamentalism, promises misery for those it disagrees with. It’s possible (certainly preferable) to be a socialist, or a conservative, a Muslim or a Jain, and not hate any community at all, but seek to embrace it.
It’s Zionism we tend to abhor on the Left, not Judaism, but that by no means drives the movement.
But of course. I’m sure you also dislike other things, right? No? You should totally drive those Jews out of Israel. Send them to Europe! Wait… no. Send them to America! Um… the Middle East? How about a final solution? GOD. Maybe if they just renounce their faith and culture…. your profiling drives your movement. But you’re not anti-Semitic at all, I’m sure. *cough*
Golly Jenni, sorry for ruffling the old feathers there. That’s just my old (probably soft) Leftie view I guess. I do not endorse anti-Semitism or any Left Wing idealogue who espouses it.
I got what you were saying, WardLittle. How many times have you accused people of being anti-Semetic on this thread now, jenn12?
I think there’s two different things:
– criticize the occupation of West Bank and the politics in Gaza, and I’m ok and I agree that Netanyahu politics is very bad for Israel.
– asking for the destruction of Israel and I’m against.
What is done is done, Israel is a legit state, all we can ask for is peace and the creation of a sustainable Palestinian state.
I don’t believe in the one state solution cause
As many times, mimif, as I’ve seen it. I’m biracial as well. It’s ok with you if I call out racists? Ward, when you talk about abhorring Zionists, yes, it’s quite offensive and it “ruffles my feathers”.
I just think you’re jumping the gun a little bit. Obviously it’s a heated subject, but to accuse everyone who dares to look at both sides of the story as anti-Semitic seems reactionary at best. And FWIW, I’m Jewish and have been to both Israel and Palestine on numerous occasions.
Jenn12
I regret offending you, it’s certainly far from my intention in such a discussion. Sorry for a too hasty phrase, I can see it might read as trivialising.
But to be clear, and I think there’s an important human difference: I dislike Zionism. Not individual Zionists, who might have a tempered idealism for alI know. I deplore raging Islamism, but hope I don’t include most Muslims in that. (I dislike Christian fundamentalism, for all the intolerance and hatred it continues to breed, but know there are many very good people in that church.)
I’ll zip it.
I promise you I don’t think everyone is anti-Semitic, but certain things said came off the wrong way. I didn’t accuse everyone, but a few things came off as anti-Semitic. I don’t like that someone thinks that people shouldn’t emigrate somewhere they feel safe by virtue of their faith. Please don’t zip it, Ward- these discussions are necessary to understand each other and begin to respect one another. I truly appreciate your explanation and will use it to remember that things don’t always come off as intended. My apologies for snapping. As you can see, I’m pro-immigration… for everyone. I am pro-Muslim and anti-extremism. I guess I am pro-human. And I’m sure you are, too. 🙂
I’m Jewish and I’m going to Paris in June. I’m a little nervous but I’m still going.
Bon voyage 🙂
My friend is Muslim and went to Paris (previously scheduled trip) in December, just around the time Charlie Hebdo happened. She went there a few days after the incident unfolded but had to spend most of her time in her hotel room because she had already been threatened on the street the few times she ventured out.
I hope you have a lovely trip though. It’s a very difficult time in Europe right now, for a lot of people and i wish you nothing but safe and fun travels.
Ummm…. The attacks were in january not december.
Ok, things can wrong in Paris but I don’t really believe someone would be attacked or threatened every time she’s out, sorry.
It’s not like tons of muslim people don’t live, work and study in Paris, every day even since the attacks.
No need to feed the paranoïa.
I didn’t say she was attacked, i said she was threatened. If you’re implying that i’m lying about what happened to my friend because i missed the date of the incident by like, a week, then that’s your problem. I think it’s interesting that some people deny or downplay Islamophobic sentiments when it is on the rise just as much as anti-Semitism is.
I believe it. I think people are scared of what will happen if Muslims and Jews join together. And I hope they do. My elder child’s BFF is Muslim and she is Jewish, and they have been bullied at school and on the bus.
So what do you call threatened?
I’m really curious.
I see tons of women wearing hijab in the street and living their life with no problem. So why did she feel threatened?
I can’t speak for that person, but my kid and her friend? Comments about bombing, comments about welfare money. Last week, someone said to the Muslim girl, “You’re Muslim, right?” She said yes, and then the girl turned to my daughter: “You’re a Jew?” (She doesn’t “look” Jewish, but wears the star.) And A. said yes, and the girl and her friend were like, “Of course you’re friends. Two losers” and started laughing really hard.
Freebunny, she was yelled at and had slurs thrown her way, which made her feel very unsafe. Again, this was a few days after the attacks so the environment was probably more tense than usual. I’m not saying it’s a daily occurrence, but it DOES happen yet somehow, people always seem to be quick to dismiss these experiences.
Jenn12, when i first arrived in the US for college and did not know anyone, i was welcomed very warmly by the Hillel House at my campus. I would go there to eat because they obviously served kosher food, which is as close as it gets to halal meat and i did not know at the time that halal meat was served in other dining halls (albeit at certain times of the day). I don’t go there as often now because i have an apartment and cook my own meals but sometimes i drop by for Shabbat dinner and everyone is always very kind to me! I’ve made some great friends and it really goes to show that we have A LOT more in common than it seems.
Every country has its problem and I know that Islamophobia increased in France since the attacks. I heard a lot about Mosques being attacked or ugly nasty letters being send, and it’s already ugly enough.
But to be honest I’ve never heard or see people yelling at muslims, except perhaps group of skinheads but they’re barely human.
Racist slurs exist, I’ve heard them too much but never in front of someone.
I believe you and your friend and of course it’s horrible, but that’s new to me.
Yes, Tifzlan, I completely agree with you. Alaia says all the time, “Why can’t ______ and I just be friends and people leave us alone about it?” I believe that people are threatened by Jews and Muslims realizing how much they have in common. I love your story. I believe people getting to know each other and discussions are what will bring peace about. I hate stereotypes& I hate generalizations. I’m so sorry for what your friend went through. I live in NYC- liberal as you can get- and I’ve seen ugliness thrown at Jews and Muslims both.
Freebunny, I don’t understand your question. I know I don’t have a dog in this fight, but this argument hits too close to home. Those two points you made are not dependent on another. It’s possible someone can feel uncomfortable in an area due to racism/anti-religiousness, even though that area has that minority population. Last time I visited Carolina Beach (or Wilimington Beach in North Carolina), I felt uncomfortable, I didn’t feel welcome or safe, yet there is a black population there. I was visiting the beach, and had someone from a pick-up truck shout out “Go back to Africa.” My husband had to “sniff out” certain restaurants before we went in because a racist biker group (associated with the KKK) was around heavily in town. They looked at my husband in a way that made us feel uncomfortable. During the same trip, we even had a white local suggest that we needed to be careful with where we chose to hang out at because of the scene. Yet, again, we saw black people living their lives, walking down the street, waiting for the bus, etc. That did not make our experience less real. Rising tensions are shifting all over the world. Israel is currently pushing out Hebrew Israelites (Black people who believe they are the original Jews), coming in and forcing these people to leave their homes. This population has been in Israel for years, but are now being threatened. The point being, that all minority (racial and religious) groups are experiencing conflicts. We need to be aware of this and speak out when noted.
I have to ask you, where on earth have you seen Israel pushing other Jews out? Generally, any Jew is welcome there. Ethiopian Jews have lived there for years; there’s a huge population in Brooklyn as well. The extreme religious sect, Satmar, has many biracial marriages and they are all welcome if they follow the tenets (ones that I don’t agree with as it’s much too extremist for me). I know one family who has an African-American wife who converted for her husband, and their children are welcome everywhere, as is her son from a first marriage who also converted.
so sad (and angry) to hear that.
I’m Israeli, and been avoiding speaking Hebrew in some European cities for many years. whenever I was asked where i’m from – I usually replied that I’m from the US. …nobody deserves to spend their vacation in such fear. nobody!
amunet ma’at – err… no. the ones that the local gov’t wants out are illegal immigrants from Africa, non-Jews. I disagree with the way our gov’t does this (well, I disagree on many things. lets just say I wont be voting for Bibi in a couple of weeks), some of them are refugees, but there are many illegal immigrants as well.
Madonna is an idiot. The rise of anti-Semitism in Europe is mainly due to the increasing Muslim immigration. Basically, it’s about Muslims and Jews hating and harrasing each other as they do in the Middle East, and then they blame the Europeans because they cannot stop the hate and the harrasement.
We need to think more for ourselves. The Muslims via isis, etc are doing horendus things all over the world and more energy is spent hating the Jews….wow
What do you mean by “the Muslims via ISIS…” ?
It’s not ‘the Muslims’, ISIS are not Muslims. They twist parts of Islam to fit their violent agenda, and are not true Muslims.
I don’t know the teachings of Islam, but Isis themselves claims to be of the Muslim faith, so when she said Muslims via Isis, etc I took it to mean that she meant the people of Isis and other extremist groups. Not all Muslims, but maybe I misunderstood?
ISIS is a Muslim creation.
ISIS is a radical ideology that most likely sprang from George W. and the military industrial complex sticking their noses where they didn’t belong, under false pretenses at that. Smdh, I feel horrible for my Muslim friends who might be reading this blog.
ISIS has nothing to do with Muslims, and it has nothing to do with GB. It has to do with extremists with a deep seated hatred of any type of freedom and the need to control and manipulate others. I’m not a Bush fan, but to blame him is silly. The issues going on have gone on for many years. Have you ever seen Iran in the 60s? The women were not in burkhas and they went to college, parties, etc. It has to do with the extremists rising and taking over and people being too afraid of the violence to stop them. Read Persepolis if you haven’t already- great book.
Funny, I own Persepolis and it is one of my favorite graphic novels. And who put the Shah of Iran back into power? The CI of A, which arguably could be considered an extremist group with a deep hatred of freedom and a need to control and manipulate others. Lol
moodygirl, ISIS was borne as a result of the illegal invasion of Iraq by the US and the subsequent propping up of Nouri Al-Maliki, a heavily sectarian ruler, by – you guessed it! – America again.
mimif, i am a Muslim “Celebitch” (so we’re friends!) reading this blog and i’m not surprised that so many people are misinformed about so many things.
Love your comments, tifzlan. I agree that there is a fair degree of misinformation/bias here, but overall it’s nice to have a “safe & welcoming place” to discuss these affairs, on a gossip site no less. That said, my Muslim bf just told me I was causing problems and needed to get off CB immediately. 😜
سلام
Well feck the bullies of all persuasions Mimif. If you, of all people, aren’t welcome on CB, in a talk about tolerance and acceptance of others, then I for one am clearing orf back to the kiddies’ sandpit at DListed whence I came, lo!, so long ago now.
Extremists are at fault, not Muslims. Please don’t make blanket statements.
This is such a crucial point! It’s the demonisation of all Muslims like this that makes young Muslims feel alienated in their own countries, such as England.
At this very moment we are finding out why a young Briton became an infamous bloodsoaked jihadi, and it is a final warning, I feel. It’s easy to say that immigrants should bow to the dominating culture, as has been the cry since before the days of Enoch Powell and his ‘rivers of blood’ speech, but it is empty rhetoric in this reality, and there’s no more time for such self-satisfied attitudes.
Literally could not have said one word better than this. ^^
+56738678946974 WardLittell
Yes, blanket statements are bad. Like “Generally white liberals have a lot to say while physically staying far away.”
Okay, good point. With that said, how many high poverty areas do you know that attract whites? Liberal or otherwise?
That’s an odd question. There’s plenty of white people who move into poorer neighborhoods just in the metro Boston area, where I live, so there’s that. Charlestown, Everett, Somerville – there’s plenty of places with poverty where white people buy houses. And there’s plenty of high-poverty areas with whites in them around the country.
jc126 says:
Yes, blanket statements are bad. Like “Generally white liberals have a lot to say while physically staying far away.
Actually that statement is pretty accurate. I notice you keep pointing out her statement in a nasty, snarky way and aren’t providing any other perspective. Maybe you should think about why that bothers you so much. White liberals seem to feel the need to explain how to feel about certain topics, but generally just talk. We like having them as allies, but when they take over the conversation, they become a burden.
Hey, Mika, I’m not the one telling anyone how they “should” feel, though I see a fair bit of sweeping generalizations on this thread.
I live in NYC, and there are very few whites in the poorer areas. The same goes for the outlying suburbs. All you have to do is look at the schools to see where white people are sending their kids, and that goes for a lot of areas. I know Boston a bit. Southie is white and poor, but they were famous for keeping minorities out. The poorer neighborhoods were still segregated. You do seem frustrated over the white liberal comment; it wasn’t meant to offend, but I have found that many pay lip service to change while living far from the people they say they want to support.
There are extremists and zealots of every religious persuasion (look at the Duggars…). Mosques are being defaced and torched daily despite the fact that they worship in peace. Not every Muslim hates the rest of the world, it’s a small and perverted faction that are sick in the head and attracting other mentally unstable people as converts. The only way we can fight evil groups like ISIS and the Taliban is by banding together in solidarity, not by fanning the flames of disunity.
You are right, every religion has its radicals, but I think the comparison between the Duggars and ISIS is a bit unfortunate. As disgusting as these crazy christians may seem I don’t see them burning or beheading people alive.
Regarding the antisemitism it has always existed unfortunately. But nowadays is mainly the muslim massive inmigration in Europe the ones spewing their hate to the jewish people. I’m glad I live in a country where there are no “nazi” parties like the FN or Pegida or Golden Dawn but there is a atmosphere of distrust towards the muslim community due to their lack of will to integrate in our culture (Not everybody but a very significant part of the community). It is not PC to say that but this is what most europeans think and don’t dare to say. Since Spain doesn’t give a fling about the PC ,we say it out loud and that’s why are always labeled as very racists, but as I said before no extreme right wing parties in my home country but just the opposite. Not burned mosques or vandalized in Spain either, not even after the 11M.
I feel very sorry for the Jewish suffering hate in Europe and I think governments should prosecute to the full exent of the Laws with the people instigating this (I hear you Dieudonné ) without being afraid of the PC brigades.
Spaniard
I’m being pretty frivolous here:
Christians burning heretics? Cue Monty Python: “No-one expects….the Spanish Inquisition!” That was a deft bit of (Vatican inspired) legislation to prevent any of the riches flowing in from the New World from falling into the hands of Jews, rather than its Catholic puppet monarchs. (Not that Spain was an isolated case regarding such burnings. Thomas More was canonised in spite of his murderous deeds in heretic-burning in England. And it crossed from the Catholic Church very smoothly to the emerging Protestant dispensation, and the torture continued. Blind faith, it’s a killer.)
WardLittell , yes you are right and that was awful but I thought we were discussing what’s happening now in 2015 not historical atrocities in Middle Ages.
Of course Spaniard
There was a point above though, re historical anti-Semitism specifically as it tied to Christianity, and the Inquisition is unavoidable in that history. It’s not a dig at Spain but at twisted religious power. Few countries emerge from history innocent of that.
It’s the continuing use of religious fanaticism to justify atrocities that we’re bashing though, as you say.
I agree. Most religions nowadays are not sacrificing their enemies. Religions/cultures have evolved.
Looking forward to Netanyahu speech on Tuesday, Being rebuked by our own President…. Actions speak very loud. Terrifying as far as I am concerned.
I am surprised that it will be televised. Obama has always mistreated Netanyahu.
In the meantime, he is meeting with Kanye and Kim, and a performance artist. His actions and attitude are extremely upsetting. In the meantime, he speaks sternly to groups that are selling women and girls like chattel, stoning gays, and beheading people they don’t like.
My son’s grandmother was educated in France, and travels there about once a year. She has said the same things about antisemitism in France for the last few years now. We need to get together globally to fight this shiz.
All of this extremism and terrorism, in the name of religion…this, and common sense is why I am an atheist!
I know. It’s heartbreaking.
hear hear
I love you, MrsBPitt, and your are entitled to your beliefs, but all groups, including atheists, have evil people in them. The people who are committing recent terrorists acts are not truly Muslims, just as the Westboro Baptist Church protestors are not really Christians. Many wonderful things are done in the name of religion, too, and all religious people are not lacking in common sense.
Thank you for this bit of common sense and your gentle reminder.
Who are you to decide who is or isn’t christian/muslim? These people clearly identify as such and their actions are justified by their scripture. Ignoring the role of religion in these peoples actions and attitudes does nothing to help understand and/or solve the problem.
@Jaizzi
I should have said that these people do not hold the same beliefs as the majority of people in that religion, or I consider their points of view to be a warped interpretation of those religions, or these people are an extreme minority in their interpretation of that religion, or some other way that did not ignore the role that religion plays in their actions. You are right that it isn’t helpful to ignore that. In my opinion, you are wrong that their actions are justified by their scripture. They justify their actions by cherry picking and misinterpreting small parts of their scripture while ignoring parts directly contrary to their interpretation. But you make a very good point.
Yes, but mainstream believers of all religions also cherry pick the good parts of their religions and ignore the bad parts. I’m sorry i’m just one of those all or nothing kind of people, I don’t understand how you can pick or choose which instructions from your God you feel like following, it makes no sense. But if you’re not hurting anyone and keep it out of the public sphere (schools, government) I guess it doesn’t really matter.
@Jaizzi
Yes, I see what you mean. I can only speak for myself, but here’s how I justify interpreting the Bible in my own way – I believe that the Bible was inspired by the word of God, but it wasn’t written by God. It was written by men, who are imperfect in many ways – in their grasp of the perfection of God’s will, in their ability to see the big picture or the future and to leave behind the limits of their own prejudices and experiences, no matter how hard they tried. So when Paul, for example, says that women should be silent in church, I remember that women then were considered property of men and were, for the most part, uneducated and housebound. He didn’t have the ability to see that this might change, or the greatness of spirit to think that women and men should be equal as God intended. It was against his own interests, if you will, and his own experience that women should be equal to men. So he was just wrong. So you are right, I do ignore parts of the Bible, and I’ve formed my own set of beliefs that I see as the core of my Christianity. And one of the main beliefs is that you don’t hurt or kill other people.
And I am a great believer of the separation of church and state, and do not think religion and politics should be intertwined as they have become. I think it’s fine if a religious person wants to serve his or her country, but forming coalitions with parties and using religion as a political party is very corrupting, in my opinion. It inevitably becomes about power, not religion, which has been the downfall of religion throughout the centuries. So I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.
Jaizzi
I can’t speak about anything but Catholicism, but within that faith, the cherry-picking isn’t arguing with god or the gospels, but with instructions handed down by Rome, some of which are inhumanly harsh, and seem inconsistent with a loving Christ, or particularly his mother, to whom many are devoted.
My parents used to tell me that we wouldn’t chuck out Shakespeare on account of a terrible amateur production, and therefore we shouldn’t despair of the Church because of its man-made dogma. It was a bit of a forced analogy, but it’s true that there are many aspects of observance that are very definitely non-canonical. (Mind you I could see trouble ahead decades ago when Rome relaxed on Sunday Mass attendance, to let us do it on Saturday. That was all about shrewd marketing, and nothing to do with sanctity! )
Yes, excellent points. It’s just one of those things that I guess I just cant understand as someone who didn’t grow up with any religion in the family, faith seems foreign to me. Also as someone who studied Comparative religion at university I find it endlessly fascinating. Sorry for my English, I’m from FInland :).
Jaizzi
It’s a fascinating subject. My weird position is that of a helpless atheist (ie, I try, but cannot believe) who still has a love for the Catholic Church in spite of knowing all its dread history, all its repulsive modern crimes, and ranting about it at the drop of a hat…..I find I love the simple core of the faith, the beauty it gave us, all without a belief in god at its heart! (Its probably middle age madness)
@Goodnames, I certainly would never disrepect anyone’s religous beliefs. However, I find it hard to believe that there is a man living in the sky, looking down on us, and allowing all these atrocities to happen…In the name of religion, millions have been persecutated all through history, to modern day. Starving people, people being murdered, people getting cancer, etc. Why would a loving “God” just allow all these horible things to happen. I’m not saying, there are no loving and wonderful religious people, of course, there are. I am saying human beings do not need religion to be helpful and kind to each other…on the other hand, when there is mass genocide because one religious group, thinks their God, is better than anyone else’s God…it’s crazy! Look up and read Christoper Hitchens…he is an amazing journalist,( who unfortuantely died of cancer). You can find debates of his on this subject on youtube.
I think it is true for you when you say that religion has brought extremism and terrorism. I am Catholic and I agree, but two things:
First, if there were no religions, people would probably keep on fighting for different reasons. I think it is human nature, sadly. There have been wars trying to push on some form of atheism (more probably to take away the power of churches), but they have been terrible and bloody.
Other thing. There are some (not you, mrs), that are constantly and aggressively pushing their atheist beliefs on boards, etc. even derailing more constructive conversations. It is like whatever is the belief, there is a need to push it on others. And that is wrong. I think that leading by example is better.
It is very hard for me to state my opinion, but sadly I think things in Europe are going to get uglier. I wish art, music, history and so many of innocent lives would not be attacked and destroyed either. I loathe fanatism.
Take care wherever you are.
@at Ennie…I would never try to push atheisim on anyone, and I hardly ever hear of anyone pushing atheisim at all…it’s an unpopular opinion. However, I do find many religions pushing their agenda. anti- Abortion, anti- stem cell research, prayer days, why? If you want to pray, pray at home…there should not be a “national day” for prayer….If you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one, but don’t tell me, that I can’t have an abortion, because your God says I can’t…Do not tell Gay people they can’t marry, because your God says they can’t. No one is forcing your church to marry Gays, but “religious” people should have NO say, if Gay people want to get married in a civil ceremony in a courthouse, in a FREE COUNTRY….it can go on and on….
madge has turned herself into waylon flowers’ madame
As a French girl leaving in France I must say that not every single person in France is racist, anti – Semite and intolerant. I will never EVER vote for Marine Le Pen (she is an idiot just like her father and she does not represent French people) and I respect every religion. Yes we have many problems in my country, we do have to fight racism and antisemitism, I can’t deny it but comparing French to Nazis is very insulting. I have seen what has been going on lately in the US but i would never say that every Americans are intolerant and racist because I know it’s not true at all.
After what happened at Charlie Hebdo, I went to a march commemorating the victims and I can tell you that people were extremely sad and stunned, it was like a big slap in our face. I might be naive but I think many people have realized that there is something wrong in France and are now willing to make a change… We’ll see…
You’re not naïve, you’re hopeful and willing to work for change. And that’s beautiful.
As an American, I’d just like to say that of course any reasonable person here does not think all French people are racist or intolerant. We certainly have our share of that here as well, and all countries need to work hard to eliminate it.
Nice one, Goodnames
That’s the problem with popstar soundbites; they keywords stand out and receive too much emphasis, eg ‘France= anti-Semitism’.
I just thought Madonna was making a big generalization, i’m sure not everyone think we’re a bunch of intolerant monster 🙂 and I agree all countries should work hard to eliminate racism, antisemitism and all kind of bigotry (do you say sectarism in English?)
Mélissa
Yes, we say ‘sectarianism’, though it has shrunk in its scope, in Britain and Ireland, to refer specifically to inflammatory Catholic/Protestant issues, rooted in Northen Ireland and prevalent in large cities with longtime Irish populations, such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool and Manchester. The old stark division though is on its last legs.
(Don’t know how it’s used in American English!)
🙂
Melissa, the number of french people who came out in The street after they recent Charlie hebdo and bakery murders was ample proof of how many people were prepared to stand up against these bast@rds, and reflected very well on the french people.
I would just love nothing more than peace on Earth.
I agree but it ain’t happening.
She’s right. 100%.
Well….I know its not so popular to talk ill of Islam in ANY way..(political correctness and all) BUT they have a huge population in Europe, and particularly France. They also for the most part, do not condone or agree with the Jewish religion. There are many incidences of statements they have made about Jews, equating them with “pigs” and terrorizing them for their beliefs. This has nothing to do with the Nazis or Germany, it has to do with a huge muslim population and the fact that they do not condone the Jewish religion, I agree with her.
the islamophobia on this arcticle is disgusting frankly,it’s as if no one can differentiate between extremists in other parts of the world, funded by the US, and BILLIONS of peaceful muslims smh
just ignore the rise in attacks against us why don’t you, it’s fine, everything is our fault
i can’t even get worked up anymore, literally three muslim people were killed in their homes and not one bit of media coverage here in the UK, and yet any thing that a muslim person does is headline news for a week, utterly revolting
but who’s ever going to talk about the things that affect us? murder of muslims is nothing compared to a jew being spat at it in the street (apparently, no proof of it)
media stories like this that paint us as aggressors and jews as victims cause even more attacks against us but like i said, who cares about muslims?
Many of us do, and I’ve seen many people post positive support towards Muslims as well. However, Jews are not just being spat on. They’re being kidnapped, tortured, raped, threatened and shot and it includes children and the elderly. If you read the accounts, Jews are not attacking Muslims. We need to join together as minorities who suffer atrocities and not go against each other. Please go back through this thread; most people have posted positive things, not negative. This article was speaking about FRENCH citizens, not a specific facet of it.
Jewish by birth here and I care about Muslims. I said this upthread, but it’s revolting to me how so few people seem to recognize that the US has had a direct hand in creating Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah (remember them?), Hamas and now ISIS. War=profit, and what better way to make a fat stack of cheddah than to create an environment that literally breeds extremists?
Mimif
That’s certainly what Leftie liberals like meself believe, about Big Oil, and about earlier profit-driven US interventions. We are pawns of the military-industrial interests. There’s only do much can be done by weedy client governments, no matter how much they promise to work for social improvement.
Lol WardLittlell, you be careful or you’re gonna get yourself in trouble* again. 😉
*For the record, I agree with every.single.thing you’ve posted here today.
Dammit, I thought I’d cancelled that reply.
I wanted instead to witter about the way one ends up almost flirting with an ancient heresy, the Manichean dualistic universe, in which good and evil are real, and permanently at war. I agree completely Mimif. (Edit: eek, I know!)
For every step we’ve taken towards a fairer, more tolerant society, a greater force responds with a conservative bite, that’s based on profit. LBJ’s civil rights progress vs the Vietnam War, for example. Progress on women’s liberation, only for a more cunning sexual enslavement to be sold back to us.
(I should be asleep, sorry for rambling on)
No, stay up and ramble. Let’s build a rocket ship and (peacefully) settle/colonize Pluto, or better yet, let’s move to Uruguay!
HERE HERE, MIMIF!
I don’t agree with you. I am a product of a war country and Im not cutting peoples heads off. There are NO excuses for radical islam behavior.
blame bush…oh, hes not president anymore? blame the us…they are the reason radical islam behaves the way they do…hell- they deserve it! (sarcasm)
Madonna is right. Anti-semitism, Islamophobia, and racism against Blacks (as evidenced by the latest football incident) and other ‘foreigners’ such as Romanians are at an all-time high in Europe. Europeans are extremely racist and pretty provincial (much more so than North Americans). People aren’t aware of how serious it is because, 1) they do not speak the relevant languages, and 2) they are only exposed to Europe as ‘tourists’. Granted, the far-right in the US is quickly catching up with Europe, and it is sickening.
Yes Kaiser, you have my permission to use that photo for Madona’s header from now on. Perhaps it will be a wake up call for her..
the fact that OP invoked Netanyahu’s propagandistc crap in order to ask whether Madge had a point tells you all you need to know….
please shut your ignorant mouth, Madonna.
your vapid comments embarrass you and only lead to legitimate discussions about anti-Semitism & Xenophobia to be taken less seriously because of ridiculous airheads like yourself.
10,000 French Jews emigrated in 2014, most to the UK and Israel. In 2014, anti-Semitic acts jumped precipitously in France alone. And perhaps I missed it somewhere in the above comments (apologies, if so), but the 2012 Toulouse school attack should have been a red flag well before the kosher supermarket siege.
Islamophobia and xenophobia are tremendously on the rise in parts of Europe. This isn’t mutually exclusive to what’s happened in Belgium, Denmark and France. Coupled with this is the rise in jihadism/extremism in parts of Europe – how many ISIS recruits are coming out of western and northern Europe (completely independent of the Chechen and various ‘stan issues). All of this – coupled with historic anti-Semitism – is a toxic, toxic cocktail…and that’s before you even get to critique of Israel’s existence, much less its interactions with the PA and Hamas.
Would I agree with Madonna that anti-Semitism is at an all-time high in France? No. But there’s a definite and measurable upswing demonstrated by the continued and steady rise in actions against Jews. In Alsace, two weeks ago, for example, a Jewish cemetery was horrendously vandalized.
Again, none of this is mutually exclusive. All of these factors are swirling together into a heady mix that leads to a foreboding trajectory.