Alice Eve kicked up a hornet’s nest on controversy yesterday. This incident actually reminds me of the Patricia Arquette thing – Arquette attempted to make a feminist statement about wage equality, but instead of practicing intersectional feminism or inclusionary “yes AND” feminism, Arquette made it sound like wage equality was more important than LGBT rights or #BlackLivesMatter. Alice Eve was trying to comment on the Bruce Jenner situation with a feminist critique, but instead of making a statement of support for Jenner AND making some pointed feminist critique, Alice Eve came across like a transphobic bigot.
Star Trek’s Alice Eve has accused Bruce Jenner of “playing at being a woman” on her Instagram page. The 33 year-old says the former Olympic champion would not have “been a hero” if he had been born a woman.
“If you were a woman no one would have heard of you because women can’t compete in the decathlon,” said Eve. “You would be a frustrated young athlete who wasn’t given a chance. Until women are paid the same as men, then playing at being a “woman” while retaining the benefits of being a man is unfair. Do you have a vagina? Are you paid less than men? Then, my friend, you are a woman.”
“Your notion that Jenner is ‘playing’ at being a woman is honestly disgusting,” one user wrote on Instagram. Another said: “This is transphobia at its finest.”
Eve tried to engage with people before deleting her two posts.
“I do agree that the struggle for transgenders is unique and horrific,” she said. “However, I do want to also support a cause I strongly believe in, the right for women to have equal rights to men. The transgender equality struggle is the next one, as we all know. And very real it is, too.”
She then added a new Instagram post. In it, she said: “I’m not saying by identifying they are negatively impacting feminism, I am saying that we have to refine the language on this topic so all men, women and transgenders are accurately represented in their process of self-identification. Maybe this needs a little thought. Thank you for engaging with me on this subject, because I felt confused and now I feel enlightened and like I know what education I need to move forward.”
Ugh. Girl, know when to stop. I can’t make any excuses for her, nor do I want to. Her language is… wrong. It’s so wrong, it’s offensive. It’s so offensive, I don’t think her half-assed “thank you for enlightening me” statement is going to cut it. I don’t see how any self-identifying feminist can read “then playing at being a ‘woman’…” and think, “Ah, yes, good point.”
Here’s what I’d like to ask women like Patricia Arquette and Alice Eve: do you think there’s some kind of “limit” on the justice, tolerance and equality we can seek? Is it less of a feminist issue when an African-American mother buries a child gunned down by police? Is it less of a feminist issue to support transgender women against prejudice, bigotry and violence? Why does it have to be one or the other? It’s a big world and we can fight for many things all at once.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Who?
My thoughts exactly, haha
I thought it was Nicole Kidman at first.
Never heard of
haha! Exactly my words.
That’s my question.
LMAO.
she was the bra-less one in sex and the city two…? and english soggy crumpet is the general consensus even in london
Honest question: how can we expect them to learn if all we do is rip them a new one if they say something dumb? Some people are malicious, some people are ignorant.
There is so much confusion and stigma surrounding transgender individuals, and this is really one of the first times we as a society can have a real conversation about trans individuals. I don’t agree with what Alice said (fortunately it’s not like I’m in danger of being exposed to her much) but this could be a real discussion.
Exactly. Ignorance is not helped by maliciousness. Neither are cries of “educate yourself”. Getting on a high horse and bashing the offender doesn’t progress anything. I think many of these so called supporters are more interested in satisfying their own self righteousness than really helping the people they claim to support. Just because you say you support something doesn’t mean you’re actually helping make progress on the issue.
Alice Eve is an Oxford graduate. So, I don’t think she is ignorant. However, what she said was politically incorrect.
While people have been transgendered since time began, I mean Native American’s have a name for it, Berdache, truly being defined as women or men is still an upward battle for them.
Some people believe transgendered who don’t get full changes are not really women or men. For example the man who gave birth to a baby. Can a biological man give birth? Barbara Walters said he was not really a man on the View and she got no backlash.
Transgendered want to be recognized as men or women. Unfortunately, biologically they never will be. I think Alice Eve made a VERY blunt and insensitive statement. However, is she really wrong or just politically incorrect to say such a thing?
Because she’s a poshie, she probably is ignorant. Her social circles and life experience will be homogeneous and insular.
Agree with Bridget. As with the Avengers “gypsy” gaff and Cumby’s use of “coloured”, gently educating someone is much more effective tool for making change than jumping down their throat and putting them on the defensive.
I’m sensitive to people being ripped apart for showing ignorance as someone who was raised in a very sheltered environment and has spent the past 25 years becoming more worldly wise. I’ve made countless mistakes of ignorance and don’t need to be shamed into right thinking. Just engaging me in intelligent dialogue is enough to help me become aware. People shouldn’t be held accountable for knowledge they don’t possess. Once given that knowledge, if they fail to use it to become better, then go after them.
One of the reasons I like this site is that I get to engage with people who aren’t like my circle of friends. I appreciate the different perspective and sensitivities and it makes me better as a result.
It’s not just an opportunity to respond to Alice Eve, the individual. You’re also responding to others that may have questions or have outdated viewpoints. She’s saying something dumb, but shouldn’t the goal be to have a real dialogue and educate, rather than make people feel even dumber?
Omg @InvaderTak you said that so perfectly! I think that’s one of the problems with both social media and feminism these days. Social media gives people a (false) sense of anonymity and therefore people tend to spout far more judgmental and vitriolic comments than they would if they had to make them face-to-face to someone. And I think women are especially cruel when judging other women. But you are right in that taking the self-righteous attitude is not helping anyone.
@denisemich: Native Americans’ name for it isn’t “Berdache”. Historically, non-Native American anthropologists used the term “berdache” to identify an individual fulfilling one of many mixed gender roles in First Nations and Native American tribes, but this is a term that absolutely nobody should ever, ever use, as the origins for it are somewhere between the French word for “male prostitute” and the Persian word for “slave.”
“Two Spirit” is a term analogous to “transgender” – virtually all Native American tribes subscribe to the idea of more than two genders, encompassing identities such as women born as men and vice versa, homosexuals of various biologies, and the like. Except “transgender” should not be used in this case, as many Two Spirits take exception at being lumped under/appropriated by the term “transgender”. So that word’s out.
Each tribe has totally different numbers, kinds, social roles, and even words for said genders, so many take exception at even being lumped under the umbrella of “Two Spirit”. So that word’s arguably out, except there’s really no other word to be used for the phenomenon, therefore, for better or worse, it has become the modern umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans to describe or label gender-variant individuals in their communities.
@denisemich, Alice was educated at Oxford, but educated people can still be ignorant
I should have ended my point by saying that Bruce should have called himself a Transgendered woman. Laverne Cox is always careful to call herself a Transgendered woman.
I don’t feel that to support Bruce and the Transgendered community we should avoid honest dialogue on the difference between a biological woman and a Transgendered woman. This dialogue does not and should not trivialize the transgendered society.
For the person offended by the term berdache. Please refer to :Spirit and the Flesh: Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture Paperback – April 1, 1992.
If you feel it is incorrect feel free to let that author know.
I’ve discussed this exact thing with some of my friends in the LGBTQ community. Before you clutch your pearls and freak out over the way somebody words something, give them a chance to know better so they can do better.
Thanks for this, Bridget. It isn’t said often enough.
It’s gotten to a point where we just have this constant level of outrage over ever single comment. It’s the nature of the 24 hour news cycle that anything newsworthy will be parsed and re-parsed, but at what point does our outrage become meaningless because it’s displayed all the time? Alice Eve said something really callous and ignorant. No bones about that. But how can we preach love and acceptance when we’re calling her an idiot?
You’re right, Bridget. I have certainly been guilty of that and have also been the recipient of it when I worded things in a stupid way.
@Bridget-You’re batting 1,000 right now.
This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately. I’m noticing it so much in this forum where people get so outraged in a way that is entirely black and white, with no room for gray. It’s frustrating because it intimidates people who may have a differing opinion but are open to changing it. They’re scared into silence, and the result is a sort of complacent, polite homogeny that doesn’t allow for discourse or varied opinions. I don’t know about other people but I’ve learned so much by just…listening to others and being willing to admit that I was wrong.
EDIT: Sorry I’m off to take a class at my gym so I’m rushing. Very inarticulate forgive me.
100% with you, ladies. I’ve been bashed online for, basically, thinking out loud. Stating my thoughts before they become true opinions. It is very disheartening to be jumped instead of talked to, when you’re in flux and really open to other opinions.
And I 100% agree that we react with outrage to every little thing, and yes, at some point, it does become meaningless.
*homogeneity. Blah.
@Timbuktu-Exactly. I’m so used to working out my thoughts in that way when I’m conversing in real life, whether debating with my friends, or just trying to understand something. It sucks to feel like you’ll get slammed for asking a question, or trying to flesh out your feelings about a subject when you’re undecided.
Kitten said:..”It’s frustrating because it intimidates people who may have a differing opinion but are open to changing it. They’re scared into silence..”
Kitten, I don´t think people are intimidated and scared into silence. They just give up on the conversation, because the black and white type of comments are as bigoted as the original ignorant one, which caused the outrage. If all they can say: you are ignorant and should educate yourself (without explaining their point) I then think: OK, I am not going to engage with this self-righteous dummy, who can´t make an argument
right? the internet too often jumps down peoples’ throats for not making the perfect statement on whatever matter. it’s dangerous because it leaves no room for a constructive discussion. I appreciate alice eve’s second statement, as she seems to realize she said something ignorant and admits she needs to think about it more. isn’t that the sort of thing we want from people?
Thanks Bridget. Information and education is everything.
Agree with this. Her initial statement was weird but instead of engaging her and asking her to clarify, people jumped down her throat instantly. It stifles discussion on a topic we need open discussion about.
@InvaderTak:
If we could star comments on this site I would star yours. Absolutely agree. People were right to question her but I loathe the Internet “outrage” police/mass pile-on on someone who says something dumb. We need to give people a chance to explain themselves and learn from their mistakes.
Bridget, I think part of the problem with her comments was tone and message. I didn’t read her words as coming from a place of curiosity or care, but rather hostility and ignorance. I don’t think that the pitchforks and torches crowd were right. However, a part of me understands the frustration and anger, because trying to get people to have conversations as a society and understanding LGBT people is not new for us. For people like me who are part of a group still clamouring for equal rights and recognition (I grew up in the trifecta of being gay, poor and not white), we have been trying to have this conversation for decades. So when you say “this is really one of the first times we as a society can have a real conversation about trans individuals,” what I hear is that the conversation is finally legitimated because non-LGBT people are paying attention.
Sadly, that’s correct. This is the first time that we as an American society have the transgender right in front of us. Bruce Jenner is an Olympic gold medal winning athlete, was once considered a paragon of masculinity, and identifies himself as a woman. The next closest example we have of a high profile person coming out as trans was Chaz Bono. We’ve made such incredible strides discussing gay and lesbian rights for decades, but consider how many people really felt that they understood only after watching Mitchell and Cameron on Modern Family. There’s so much mystery and fear and misinformation about transgender people, I for one welcome the fact that it’s in the mainstream conversation. And obviously what Alice Eve is saying is stupid, but when people respond to her comments they’re not just responding to Alice Eve, the individual, they’re responding to all the other folks that may hold similar viewpoints. Shouldn’t we take the opportunity to engage rather than castigate?
@Bridget, totally, but part of this conversation is that the anger doesn’t come from nowhere. I’m betting that a lot of people who went after her for her comment have been on the receiving of a lot of ignorance and hatred. I mean, even our exchange is making me feel frustrated, especially by “shouldn’t we take the opportunity to engage rather than castigate?” because we have tried for a long, long, LONG time. I have spent my entire life trying to engage. I’m really not trying to pick a fight with you (Internet hug/fist bump, because I believe you are coming from a place of genuine care and we’re all in this together), but my entire life I have been told by people in a position of privilege how I should control my feelings, and how I should engage.
@Hawkeye
As I was reading this thread I felt a sort of agitation creep on me that I didn’t understand. InvaderTrek makes a very reasonable point but for some eason it just made me angry. Your comments perfectly articulated how I feel as a minority in the face of ignorance (low income black female) I know my anger doesn’t really help fuel reasonable discussions that help change us as a society, but tbh at this point in my life I don’t really care.
@V I’m giving you a hug. I get you. Speaking only for myself, when I see comments like the ones in this thread, I tell myself that the people aren’t meaning to take the focus off Alice Eve or how hurtful her comments were. But when they do, I wonder how many of them get to go about their day/rest of their lives without having to face this kind of (Alice Eve) crap every day. I wonder when we can get a whole thread of people who, instead of musing about civil and respectful conversation, say that they get up each morning and look in the mirror and say, “today, I’m going out to do battle against transphobia.” For a long time in my life, I was shaped by being the wrong orientation, the wrong skin colour, and the wrong income bracket, and while it’s made me stronger, I am under no illusion that struggles for equality are “new.” For instance, Alice Eve is British; British parliament passed the Gender Equality Act in 2005 – that’s ten years ago. That’s a long time for her to gain some knowledge. People get outraged from time to time when presented with the more obviously offensive comments like this against any group not in power, but it isn’t their rallying cry. They expect us to lead the various civil rights movements from our own segregated spaces, and they’ll join in from time to time, or perhaps make a donation to “our” worthy causes, but that’s it. And that’s what’s on my mind and in my heart on this topic.
As I said, I’m not trying to say whether or not you should be outraged. But as much as it sucks, you have a choice: to be mad, or to change minds. Because for a lot of people, this isn’t a day to day struggle and this hasn’t been a decades long fight. And this may end up being an eye opening experience – they’re not going to understand that you’re tired and feel like everything’s been said. We don’t always get to choose our opportunities for change. 17,000,000 people watched Bruce Jenner last Friday night, and even more have caught clips and excerpts online. He may be the first transgender person they ‘know’ and there are a lot of questions and misconceptions out there and this is a huge opportunity. Alice Eve said something painfully ignorant and is trying to co-opt this discussion, and the internet ripped her a new one. As the internet always does. But in that case, how does that make us any different? And isn’t there a more powerful message that we can deliver?
And consider this: maybe part of the problem is the fact that a lot of people don’t pick and choose what they’re outraged about. It’s hard to take it seriously when people are constantly furious over someone saying something wrong (lord help you if you get the definitely of feminism wrong), so when there are real, legitimate causes for anger it gets lost in the cacophony.
@Bridget I feel like what we’re doing is talking past each other. If you are still here, please go down thread and read some of the comments, like the one from MarigoldandFinnigan, and you tell me which I should be: mad or changing their mind. I face that every day – the ugliness, but also the suggestions from other people about “as much as it sucks, you have a choice: to be mad, or to change minds.”
@V: If I may add on to my comment with this: In my mind, what you described and what I’m talking about are two different things. I wasn’t trying to say that righteous anger over what AE said is NOT wrong, it’s actually a good thing, because what she said was dumb. I was talking about the self righteous anger that gets the media attention and is prevalent all over social media, and is starting to steep into the real world.. My comments were directed at the group of people whose “support” is rooted in narcissism, rather than a desire to help; the ones that are bashing and bemoaning AE’s ignorance, and congratulating themselves on not being like her. This group isn’t interested in real change or dialog or whatever, just about using the ignorance of another to prop up their own egos. Not saying don’t be angry; just trying to express my disdain for those that use genuine problems that need addressing in a real way for their own self satisfaction. Nothing is gained by anyone with that kind of anger and outrage. What you described is not the same to me.
My “educate yourself” comment goes along with the above; if i’m ignorant and you are not, why don’t you educate me on the subject that you claim to support and know about? When asked, these people won’t try to educate or discuss anything. They are content with informing the rest of us how dumb we are and leaving it at that.
Well said and thank you for saying it too.
She may have a point. She’s struggling to understand this as an individual with her own perspective, instincts and experiences to draw on. That she said her struggle out loud in a way that others now pick apart, others are doing the same to her that they criticize her for doing. It’s a neverending circle of negative view.
This comment needs to be posted on every single post that has anything to do with social issues. Perfectly stated.
I agree with your general idea but I think it’s a mistake to think real discussions happen on Twitter. The very nature of Twitter demands brevity, lack of depth, and quick response. It’s the opposite of discussion. Honestly all social media gives the illusion of connectivity and discussion when there is none, eliminating face to face discussions changes how we respond to one another, how we feel, and how much we get out of discussions.
This backlash and her comment happened the only way it could have. Even if 200 people took time and wrote 10 tweets to create a well thought out detailed counter-response to her others will simply say, “You’re ignorant” because that simple sentence captures their emotions. Sometimes you get too tired to always write those paragraphs and can use a simple hash tag or something else to express your feelings.
If she was looking for real discussion she probably should have sought another form of media.
Agreed. I don’t understand why so many celebs insist on using Twitter to tackle complex subjects. That being said, I think it’s a positive that people are bringing up important–and often unacknowledged–subjects as a response to her Tweets.
There are a lot of people who aren’t WILLING to learn.
But shaming them won’t change that-it’ll only put them more on the defense.
I think Bridget was trying to say that you might have a fighting chance of changing someone’s mind or at the minimum educating them, by keeping the discussion open and withholding judgment.
SO much this.
Thank you so much for this. This reminded me of the situation when Bendy was accused of racism for using the word “colored” and David Oyelowo came to his defense.
Racism, homophobia, transphobia, all of these issues need to be talked about. We need to discuss these things. But no one will ever want to talk about it if the PC internet patrol fires all of their weapons as soon as someone slips.
There’s real bigots out there. Lots of them. And a lot of them are actually powerful. Let’s not waste our energies on people who simply didn’t know how to word themselves.
That being said, I don’t know Alice Eve and I have no idea if she has a history of saying things like that.
THANK YOU!!! Why isn’t it enough that she acknowledged that she needed education on the topic? Don’t we want people to be willing to accept that their offending comments were due to ignorance and that they will strive for enlightenment? This whole “one ignorant statement makes someone evil for all eternity” knee jerk reaction is exhausting.
I think the defense of her is misplaced. She wasn’t trying to engage in a conversation about being transgender or transphobia or even about feminism. Let’s be honest, she was snide and bitchy. And so the responses to her have been snide and bitchy. She’s an oxford grad for crying out loud, she knows better.
Someone mentioned the whole ‘coloured’ thing with Bendy, and I think he deserved the defense he got, because the word means different things in different countries and he obviously wasn’t trying to offend. This chic thought she was being clever….. sorry booboo you’re not, and you got properly smacked down for it
and THANK YOU Kaiser – you are right on point, there is not a finite amount of justice in the world. I manage to get through my whole day without being a transphobic, racist, sexist a$$hat without even trying.
I don’t think she meant this to be received the way it has been… I took what she said to mean that she felt to be a woman a person must also have experienced the challenges of being one in our society. She felt that, having accomplished so much via routes only accessible to men, he would not ever really understand what it was to be a woman.
I agree with where she’s coming from and alluded to it in the last Jenner post. This issue is problematic for many of the stereotypes feminists have fought against. But many women are afraid to say so because transphobia is so easily hurled at you and there’s no intelligent discourse.
Trans people deserve the right to live however they want and not be afraid of violence. But changing the language of science and feminism to placate their Feelings is not the way to do it.
No, I’m sorry. It’s not changing the language of science and feminism. The idea that transgender women are women is a valid and accurate statement in psychology/psychiatry – which ARE sciences. Gender exists beyond chromosomes and anatomy. So does science for that matter. And feminism has used a lot of hurtful and dangerous language in the past (and present) that DOES need to change. Feminism NEEDS to include trans* women and women of colour and lesbian/bisexual/queer women.
Also, I really wish people would stop assuming that trans* women are all holding up stereotypes of women and setting us back in terms of gender roles. Trans* women are just as diverse as any group of women. Please look up Laura Jane Grace and then tell me you think she’s supporting the “stereotypes feminists have fought against”.
Agree, especially the last paragraph. Transgender people are incredibly diverse. Some live up to the stereotypes about their gender, other’s are as far from the stereotypes as you can get, and the vast majority are somewhere in the middle. Just like the rest of the population.
I know a transgender woman who dresses like an unusually slobby lumberjack and still plays on the mens rugby and soccer teams she played on before her transition. I know a transgender man who loves baking and collects pretty aprons. People are complex.
In the very recent past, if you wanted gender reassignment surgery, you had to prove to your doctors that you were living like a man/woman. This involved a lot of idiotic stereotyping. So if you were a transgender woman, you’d have to pile on the make-up and the pink clothing, talk in a girly voice, practice ‘dainty’ body movements etc. in order to qualify for surgery. For most people, that was just a means to an end, not a display of their true selves or a reflection of what they thought being a woman meant.
The change of language I’m talking about is that for decades feminists have been saying that being a woman isn’t defined by wearing a skirt. That women don’t have different minds than men. And science talks about the inexistance of a God. All of that is being pushed aside because a man feels like “God made a mistake”, they have “the mind of a woman”, the “soul of a woman”. For decades, talking about social constructs on gender roles needing to be destroyed, so that we can no longer say “stop acting like a girl” to men who cry and men who wear skirts. Why is all of that now out the window? He is biologically and anatomically a man. Even if he has surgery, which, really, is genital mutilation, it won’t change the fact that he is a man. He can live as a woman all day for all I care. It’s this message that “feeling and acting” like a woman is the definition of womanhood. It’s not. It’s this message that having a vagina doesn’t make you a woman. This flies in the face of science! I can’t agree with someone’s delusions simply because it will hurt their feelings if I don’t. None of these arguments are based on facts. Certain psychologists believe this is body dismorphic disorder. So who’s right?
My other concern, in light of recent events like that in Planet Fitness, is that a person with male genatalia, looks and demeanor can walk into a woman’s locker room and simply claim to be a woman and will be afforded all of the rights of a cis woman. The female CEO that everyone praises as breaking the glass ceiling is in fact Trans. So is that an intrinsically feminist milestone or is this a person who used their male privilege their whole life (like the decathlon mentioned here) and then became a woman at the end of their success as a man?
Again, there’s too many questions for me to eagerly celebrate this movement.
McCraw, are you actively aligning yourself with trans-exclusionary radical feminism? I’m sorry to say that is a loosing fight. We have moved on from 70s feminism for a reason. You don’t seem to have acknowledged the valid points Jessica and I brought up about trans women who don’t conform to stereotypes. Besides, would you say the same things about women who do have the anatomy you thing is so important and choose to be stay-at-home moms/homemakers and wear pretty dresses? Are they also setting feminism back, or do they get a pass because YOU have decided they are allowed to call themselves women?
Legitimate psychologist DO NOT believe gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria are the same as body dysmorphic disorder. I studied psychology. They are completely separate in the DSM and remain so even in the most recent revision.
Atheists can still be trans*. God has nothing to do with it. And trans* women are continually more likely to face violence, both physical and sexual, than cis women, especially in intimate spaces like bathrooms and locker rooms. That doesn’t erase the legitimate danger and issues we face. It just shows you that we have a lot of the same issues. You also can’t use one example of a trans* woman who succeeded in business and claim that is representative. There are thousands of trans* women who are homeless because they have no employment protections and they can’t keep a job due to discrimination.
MCraw,
I haven’t actually seen the 20/20 interview, so I wasn’t aware of the language that was used in that conversation, but you’re bringing up some points I haven’t considered myself. And I think they are very valid ones. It seems that, despite struggling with this issue for decades, Bruce Jenner hasn’t really made much of an effort to truly educate himself on feminist issues. Which, and I know I will catch flack for this, does make me circle back to Alice Eve’s comment and wonder if it is at least partially due to his male privilege that he enjoyed just by appearing to be a man.
Lee1,
I think you’re missing a bunch of points that MCraw made, so I’m not sure how “valid” your counter-points are. I don’t think that a successful trans person was pointed out as representative, but rather as an example of someone who became successful as a MAN, and THEN became a woman, rather than a successful woman or trans person.
I also do not think that MCraw is aligning herself with trans-exclusionary feminism, I think she’s aligning herself with Bruce Jenner-exclusionary feminism, or rather, she’s calling Bruce Jenner on HIS demonstrated lack of education of feminist issues. Is he now somehow immune from criticism, I missed that memo.
And perhaps stay-at-home Moms do set feminism back (I am a SAHM, so I disagree, but it’s a different conversation), but is it not possible to discuss Bruce Jenner’s attitudes without considering every other group and individual who may also negatively impact feminism? I’m not sure how “but they do it, too” is a valid point.
MCraw, excellent points!!
Especially this:
“The female CEO that everyone praises as breaking the glass ceiling is in fact Trans. So is that an intrinsically feminist milestone or is this a person who used their male privilege their whole life (like the decathlon mentioned here) and then became a woman at the end of their success as a man?”
There’s more as a society we need to grapple with about gender. There is scientific basis on differences between the sexes, that one cannot fully overcomqe even after transition.
Women’s sports is being hit hard by this. Trans players who went through puberty as men and as a result forever have increased muscle mass and strength, are edging out Female Assigned At Birth women and shattering records made by FAAB women. By struggling to be inclusive to transwomen, it’s an unfair advantage over those who are not.
@Timbuktu,
McCraw said Jenner will never be a woman and that anyone who seeks GSR is self-mutilating. That is so offensive I don’t even know how to begin to explain it. Also, Jenner absolutely never said that he only knows he is a woman because he wants to wear a dress. In fact, he said that even after he transitions, he will still love many of the stereotypically masculine interests he had before. He did talk about having the “soul of a woman”, but I don’t see any anti-feminist issues with that statement personally.
I think the conversation of whether trans* women have male privilege before they transition is valid and interesting, but mixed in with the other points in that comment it was too much for me. I suppose maybe that’s on me. There are a lot of interesting first person articles out there though about what it’s like to give up that privilege when you transition as a trans* woman. Some trans* women may “pass” and then they suffer all of the same discrimination as any cis-woman does. Some trans* women don’t pass and then they face even more discrimination that I do.
There are also interesting conversations to be had about how the negative self-concepts about body image that girls are subjected to from such a young age are different for someone who transitions at a later age and was potentially raised with the benefits of having been perceived as male and thus possibly never taught those same things by society. The flip side of that is that someone who knows from a young age that they don’t identify as male is then potentially subjected to male machismo that may further repress their true identity and prevent them from ever getting to experiment with feminine ideas or aesthetics the way I was able to as a little girl. I haven’t worn nail polish in nearly a decade, but maybe that’s because I was allowed to play with it as a child. That is something that was denied to Jenner during the formative years in which young girls get to figure out what works for them and what doesn’t in terms of things society has told them are “for girls”. Shouldn’t he be allowed that adolescent exploration now? But I don’t think it’s fair to have that conversation in a place of judgment and denial of someone’s identity, and that’s how I felt about McCraw’s comment.
Also, my point about SAHM absolutely was NOT “they do it too!”. It was to say, modern feminism needs to stop accusing the “wrong” type of woman of setting us back. The goal here should be freedom of choice in all aspects of femininity. There is nothing wrong with liking “feminine” things or choosing to stay at home with the kids if that’s what truly speaks to you. The problem is with society telling us that’s what we HAVE to do.
Lee1, I think my points stand as is and others have clarified any gaps it had to answer your questions.
Greyson,
I’m forgetting the name right now, but in the past year some MtF MMA fighter argued about “her” right to specifically fight black MMA women because black women have the muscle mass and bone structure to that of a white man. AND THEY LET A WOMAN GET PUMMELED! The racism of that statement along with the historical context of statements like that to justify slavery disgusted me to no end. Hasn’t science proven that black women are not men with vaginas? But no, things like this can be said with not one an eyelash batted. This would never have happened had a white woman been challenged to fight.
This really is just the tip of the iceberg. There’s so many stories going on, like accessing healthcare funds specifically allocated to women’s health, like breast cancer. But none of them are in the mainstream because everyone who brings up these logical questions, even while trying to be respectful as the woman in this story tried to be, you get attacked and shouted down into silence. Even OTHER transwomen are called transphobic for saying that while they love wearing women’s clothes and “acting” as women, they acknowledge that because they were born with and treated to the male perspective for at least part of their life, they realize that their male privilege is an undercurrent to their Trans life.
@McCraw,
I don’t understand where you are getting your information from. You seem to be really misrepresenting what Fallon Fox said and the situation in general. People were saying Fallon was at an unfair advantage because having gone through male puberty, she had a higher bone density. Her comment was that bone density varies greatly across racial groups as well and that it isn’t and shouldn’t be used as an excuse to segregate the field. The reality is that trans* women who have gone through GRS and are on hormones don’t have male bodies anymore. Their bone density decreases and their muscle mass decreases. I am not a medical professional so I won’t make any judgments about how to safely and respectfully integrate trans* women into women’s sports, but the medical professionals who reviewed Fallon’s medical records seemed to think it was fair. Trans* women who have been on HRT may also be at a higher risk for breast cancer, so I don’t see why they should be excluded from accessing women’s health services or funding that is earmarked for that purpose. Besides, that is such a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to women’s health funding.There are far bigger issues at hand in that department than the handful of trans* women who may access those services.
Thank you for reminding me. Fallon Fox in her own words about black women:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/11/11/7192703/fallon-fox-responds-to-joe-rogan-and-ronda-rouseys-claims-of-unfair
If you agree with her arguments here fine. I don’t and won’t. I don’t see Trans men eagerly trying to box cis men. Why? But the number of Trans women trying to outfight, outrun and defeat cis women in all sports is a concern. If you can’t understand that this language and fight in these areas are a concern and sometimes offensive TO ME, then we can just agree to disagree.
I don’t think Fox was very eloquent in what or how she said what she said and I don’t necessarily agree with or condone it. I just don’t think it was being accurately reflected in your first comment about it, so I really do appreciate that the link you shared was to the source material. Neither Fallon nor Jenner are infallible or immune to criticism just because they are trans*, but the criticism shouldn’t come from a place of anti-trans* hostility.
Point being, I do understand your displeasure with her quotes and I do understand your concern with certain issues, but I think having constructive conversations about these things requires that we are also respectful. So, thank you for not using scare quotes around the female pronouns you used for Fallon this time.
Well, yeah. I’ve repeatedly stated that Trans ppl and every human for that matter can live their lives however they choose for themselves and shouldn’t be attacked or killed over it. Be a lady! Be a Trans tomboy! Be whatever you want to be whenever you want to be! That doesn’t mean that I will sit here and agree with how they feel* about their sex and what that means for the definition of being a man or woman, something that isn’t based on anything, but fact. There is no morality involved in this, it just IS. Being a man or woman has nothing to do with opinion or morality. You just are! Birth certificates of Trans women can be legally changed to say you were BORN a woman. Doctors now “coercively assign” gender at birth. Legal, medical and scientific language is challenged at every level. As well as long established feminist thought.
Imagine a black person saying “I feel like I’m white, therefore I am”. We would look at them like they’re crazy and be concerned for their well being. Imagine the conversation being white skin doesn’t make you white. That being white is a feeling. “I have a white person’s brain”. Would we encourage that line of thinking or make that person realize you can’t change the definition of skin color? That they should reject their skin and live happy as they believe* white ppl live OR let them be happy acting white while helping them accept the fact that they were born dark skinned? Trans ppl can live however they want. But playing house in real life and expecting everyone to align themselves in agreement without questions is too illogical to me.
Thanks for the respectful convo. Truly.
I think this is where our perspectives massively divide. I don’t personally see how it’s possible to be respectful of someone’s identity while saying that you don’t believe it actually exists. I do appreciate that you aren’t trying to deny anyone the right to self-identify how they see fit, but I do think there’s a problem with essentially saying “you can go ahead call yourself a woman, but I know the truth and it’s that you’re still a man”. I honestly just don’t see how that can be done respectfully.
I also don’t think it’s a fair comparison to say that it would be like a black person believing they had a “white person’s brain” because you’re trying to compare a thing that does exist, has existed for as long as we have recorded history and has been acknowledged as medically valid with a thing that has never existed as far as I’m aware.
The point about doctor’s coercively assigning gender at birth though really relates to intersex babies I think, which is a related but different conversation. I guess at the end of the day, it’s just funny that I would almost entirely agree with this: “Being a man or woman has nothing to do with opinion or morality. You just are!” but I would say that chromosomes and anatomy are absolutely not the exclusive deciders of that. Some people ‘just are’ in spite of that.
Ok, I do see your point in that what I’m saying can be offensive to some. It’s just weird that after 30 yrs of being told that gender constructs have no place in civilized society- that a man can wear a dress and not have his manhood questioned- to now saying those same constructs define femininity… Is dangerous to me. It’s completely opposite of everything feminism has fought for. I seriously side-eye any person claiming to be a woman while using male privilege to argue their rights to women’s spaces. I have seen Trans women say that they were ALWAYS women. Why? Cuz they felt that way. True story: I thought I should have been born a tiger when I was 5. I seriously thought that God made a mistake. I thought that if I acted like a tiger I would wake up one day and BE a tiger. My mom has the bite marks to prove it. And just cuz I felt that way, didn’t make it true. Of course, it’s not in the same realm as this issue, but what I’m saying is we have to have a world that is built up on reality and facts, not feelings. Science, not thought. Otherwise, everything can be questioned. And, just to clarify, doctors w the coercive gender assignment is about not stating the sex of the child because later in life, they may feel different. It is a specifically Trans point that has been repeated and is gaining traction. Soon doctors will legally refrain from saying “it’s a boy”
As I said, it’s the language and feelings of people in this movement who are challenging science, feminism and what defines femininity that makes me uncomfortable.
And FYI, skin bleaching is a real problem in a big portion of the world today. Many ppl in history who downplay their blackness and reject their entire families. Haven’t you ever heard the term “pas en blanc”?
I only just realized I’ve been adding an extra ‘c’ to your user name mistakenly, so sorry for that!
The thing is, there is a lot of scientific research to back up the legitimacy of trans identities. So I just don’t agree that it goes against what science tells us. Like I said in the very beginning, psychology is a legitimate field of science and as much as people like to exclude it as it isn’t technically a ‘hard’ science, it is the only field that really allows us to study human concepts that aren’t obviously measurable. The difference between feeling like you were a tiger and a trans girl or boy feeling that their gender identity doesn’t match what the world is telling them they are is that you COULD grow out of your tiger phase. There has never been any sort of “growing out of it” or proven treatment for trans individuals other than to help them transition in whatever way they need. There’s a very concrete difference between childhood fantasy and gender identity issues and medical professionals are quite good nowadays at recognizing that difference.
I also just don’t think that the concept of identifying as a woman based on a feeling is at odds with the feminist desire to eliminate gender stereotypes and constructs. If anything, I actually think they are quite complimentary concepts. I don’t think that the existence of trans* people at all means that they are defining their gender based on arcane gender constructs. And I don’t think that a trans* woman is using male privilege to argue her way in to female spaces because I don’t believe she has male privilege once she is an out trans* woman.
As a queer lady, I spend a lot of time in queer online spaces and I’ve never heard of the idea of accusing doctors of coercively assigning gender at birth just in case the child grows up to be trans*. Like, I read a lot of articles by trans* authors and I’ve legitimately just never heard of that. Of course it could be true that some people think that way, but for the most part I think most people, even trans* people, just want there to be less societal pressure to conform to gender roles and stereotypes and that trans* children aren’t denied their autonomy in their identities, not that no one should ever be gendered from birth ever. I know some parents have tried to do that for their own children, but even the accounts I have read from them have never seemed to indicate that they think everyone NEEDS to do it, only that it would be ideal if we as a society didn’t force gendered concepts on children from birth. I really just don’t think doctor’s will ever be legally prevented from saying “it’s a boy/girl”.
I definitely do know about skin bleaching though. I just think it’s a different thing. It’s horrible of course, but attempting to achieve the beauty standards society (horrifically) tells you are prized isn’t the same thing as believing you ARE a different race. It’s also something that can be helped/lessened by changing societal pressures/standards and that hasn’t been shown to be true for trans* individuals.
I agree with your first paragraph. I find it strange how little discussion there is over this in the mainstream. I mean the tension isnt just between the trans community and some feminist schools of thought, it also exists within the broader LGB movement. Theres a sense in which transgendered persons confirm binary gender identities, where you”know” whether you are a girl or a boy based on how you feel and behave, as though iif you have a vagina you feel and behave in a specific fashion. You can see why that would allienate people who dont sit on either side of this coin like say femme gay guys or butch lesbians.
Ok. I very much agree (and I’m glad somebody else noticed) that SOME MtF transsexual are just looking to relive the male stereotype of what a female should be. And some of those go as far as saying (and it’s printed) they knew they were female because they liked cooking and cleaning the house as well as wearing high heels.
Of course, if a woman complains about it she just ‘doesn’t understand’.
Now, Bruce didn’t say any of those things, so it would be unfair to assume he thinks the same way.
It is of course true that women are not seen as equal to men, but transgenders are not seen as equal to male nor female, their rights get violated left and right. Specially if they’re not rich or famous like Bruce.
MCraw – you’ve put it perfectly! We seem to be in the minority but I agree with what you said about everything. If you have not had gender reassignment surgery, I’m not comfortable with you in my bathroom/changeroom. I also don’t think you can identify as a woman if you have not had “womanly” experiences. I’m a tomboy and have a masculine attitude toward life in many respects – does that make me a man in a woman’s body?
Chaz Bono put his money where his mouth is. Bruce Jenner is putting on nail polish. Not quite the same in my book.
Curious what you mean as “womanly experiences”?
I get your point as far as the bathroom thing. I read almost every day about transgender issues (someone being discriminated against, etc.) in the media and while I like to think I’m open-minded and accepting, to a certain point (if I’m being totally honest) there are a few areas that I just don’t know how to feel and this is one of them. If I’m taking advantage of the fact that there are gender-separated bathrooms/locker rooms, I certainly expect everyone else in there to be physically female, and I honestly don’t know how I would feel in there with someone who identifies as a woman but who, when undressed, shows male genitalia. I get that there are “neutral” bathrooms, etc. for those who don’t care either way, but an unwanted display of male genitals is all I’d focus on, regardless of who that person was or that they identified as a woman. I’d feel even more uncomfortable if I had, say, my niece or a young girl with me – that’s certainly not something I’d want her to witness in the context of a “female-only” area. I agree everyone should be able to live as they please but I’m still struggling with the idea of where this impinges on the rights (privileges?) to which I’m already accustomed.
“Chaz Bono put his money where his mouth is. Bruce Jenner is putting on nail polish. Not quite the same in my book.”
” I also don’t think you can identify as a woman if you have not had “womanly” experiences. I’m a tomboy and have a masculine attitude toward life in many respects – does that make me a man in a woman’s body?”
This is just… wow. For one Bruce has taken hormones and has started undergoing procedures to change his appearance – not just putting on nail polish. He has felt like a woman his whole life. He has grown breasts, he has worn women’s clothing, he has never felt comfortable in his skin as a man, what more do you want from him so far as his ‘womanly experiences?’ And for you to compare it to your vague ‘masculine’ way of thinking (which means what exactly? We all think how we think and it isn’t an indicator of gender unless labeled so by specific cultural conditioning) and claim it somehow means you are in any way, shape or form au fait with his struggle is pretty demeaning.
Also I never understood the cis obsession with genitalia when it comes to trans* individuals. We all see it at some point, who cares if it’s the opposite of yours? If your niece or child is in a changeroom with women changing what’s the big deal if they’re already seeing vaginas and breasts? To be honest I imagine a trans* person is probably going to go somewhere private anyway to avoid any conflict but otherwise just take the kid in a stall and avoid it altogether.
@Ange – the “big deal” is that it’s MY right to have an opinion about the propriety of a child seeing adult genitalia, especially if it goes against what is expected. Don’t delude yourself into thinking it’s a “cis obsession” with genitalia or make the ignorant assumption that we all see it at some point during childhood. If you can’t understand the situation of a girl child having already seen adult female privates but not necessarily feeling comfortable seeing those of adult males, I’m afraid this forum is simply too limited to explain it to you. And to suggest I’d have to be the one to take a kid into a stall? Seriously? In a WOMEN-ONLY environment, I’d have to take a child into a private stall so she doesn’t see male genitals? Besides which, I said that *I*, as an adult woman, would be uncomfortable with it as well, even if I didn’t have a child with me.
I get it, I understand where this line of thinking comes from because it’s the predominant line of thinking when it comes to dealing with trans* people – ‘what if I see their bits?!’ I just don’t understand why it’s no drama to see various strange vaginas and breasts milling about but heaven forfend you catch a fleeting glimpse of penis. It only has power if you give it power.
Another good, thought provoking post!
TBH, this discussion has given me a lot to think about that I never considered before. I will say that I think the only people setting back feminism are the people who want to take away a woman’s right to body autonomy.
Yes, very good. McGraw has brought up some interesting points and elaborated on some thoughts and concerns I’ve had about feminism and transgender topics. Very good and I will probably re-read everyone’s posts several times.
Is it so damn f*cking hard to just say “Good for you Bruce” and move along?
Exactly! And “transgenders,” UGH. I’m a gay man, not a gay, and I didn’t become gayed; same rules apply to “transgender.”
You know, it’s not even her thoughtless words that bother me as much. People will say offensive things. It’s a given. It’s her damn backpedaling and “OH that’s not what I meant” bullcrap. Own your stupidity! IF you believe in something, do it. Do it hard and go in! But don’t clarify or say you were confused when the public doesn’t fall at your feet and they call you on your insensitivity.
@taterho I completely agree; the way she worded her feelings elevated my irritation because I’ve been on the receiving end of this. (Also 100% with you on her backpedal).
High five Hawkeye. I thought I sounded a little too shouty, but I am so angered by the ridiculous and narrow minded things being said in the last few days about this. I can’t even begin to imagine what you’ve had to listen to and endure, but I will argue to my last breath for you and everyone in the LGBT community. I feel like every argument against tries to make it about them and how it affects them. They can’t see past their own nose to see it isn’t about them and it doesn’t make their life any harder.
@taterho I actually have tears in my eyes about your comment. Thank you for validating how I and many people feel. I am exhausted by the constant defense and rush to make bigoted, ignorant fools feel less bad about themselves because they aren’t “aware.”
@Hawkeye
I understand what you are trying to say. I can’t really put it into words correctly because it angers me so much. I don’t know why someone should get a pass for not understanding when they use words like “playing at being a woman”.
And I agree. We have no obligation to make Alice feel less bad about herself. I wish people would understand that it isn’t so much piling on her as it is years of bottled up anger. And also, those not being able to be heard without themselves being shouted down or dismissed.
@taterho, a million times thank you. I came back to see if there were other replies, to what I said up thread and new ones, and I see that I should not have returned. Full gamut of microaggression to full-out bigotry.
No Hawkeye, Thank you.
Your words in the thread up top “They expect us to lead the various civil rights movements from our own segregated spaces, and they’ll join in from time to time, or perhaps make a donation to “our” worthy causes, but that’s it.” And also “today, I’m going out to do battle against transphobia.”
have opened my eyes and also made me tear up. These are strong words. And as I get angry and try to support LGBT issues, I sometimes forget that those that deal with it 24/7 don’t get to let go so easily and move on to the next topic. And they can’t dampen their anger because it may seem counterproductive to some.
Unfortunately, It seems like what you are trying to say is still being dismissed and you’re being told how to respond.
Just know that I hear it just fine.
That’s what I was thinking. She’s free to advocate for “”her cause” as much as she likes, but bringing him into it was entirely unnecessary.
As was asking, do you have a vagina? I found that to be incredibly offensive.
Bruce is going to go through so much because of his desire to match his insides with his outsides, certainly more that this jellyfish will ever know.
I agree. Her words are important, but she covers it in stupid by dragging another issue into it and making it an “us against” them rant.
Or barring that how about saying nothing at all? I didn’t care about Bruce Jenner before and I don’t care now. There is no need for everyone, celebrity or not to comment on everything.
This here! Every time a Kartrashian farts it makes headline news, which everyone then feels compelled to comment upon; if people simply said “no comment” or “who?” or just said “I don’t even think about it/them” there wouldn’t be messes like this.
Agreed.
Yikes. Talk about letting your mouth run away from your brain. I can almost guess where she started with that – I heard/read a few comments in the past few days along the lines of, “The best athlete in the world was a woman this whole time!” which I don’t think is fair to say because Bruce was publicly identified as a man for so long and allowed to compete as a man, with all the physiology of a man. But if she had just said, “Now can we finally let women compete in the decathlon?” she might have made her point without igniting such a storm.
Exactly!
I don’t know who told them that one issue is more important than the other, or when we speak of equality, it only means gender equality. Equality means that we all are created equal and that we all are equal, regardless of gender, race, nationality, religion and sexual orientation. Equality is a battle we all are fighting for.
With the recent spate of celebrities saying “I’m not a feminist” (yet appearing to believe in equality), and this example of “I am a feminist – equality for transfolk is secondary” … I’m about ready to give up on the word and go with “Equalist”.
Perhaps that will be easier for everyone to understand?
I find the ‘we are all created equal’ argument, applied across board, to be equally as horrifying (see what I did there).
She missed the point by a thousand miles. A friend of mine is going through the change, and it is such a profound, radical experience you endure, and you endure it because you cannot bare to be in the skin you’re in anymore. She has absolutely no idea what she’s talking about.
She is a trust fund kid who acts as a hobby. The only thing about this bubble child is that people are surprised it was said.
But let’s not indulge stereotypes….
She is who she is. I do not see her helping to make the world better. As someone stated above, she could have said good for him or nothing at all. Instead she went completely off topic and is getting burned. The thing that sucks is she is getting attention.
While I agree with the sentiments about equality, I don’t believe this was the time to discuss it. Where is the equality for transgender people then or does she only want it for women who were born with vaginas since she doesn’t seem to recognise you as one unless you were born with one?
Someone who has made the life altering decision to transition into a woman has done so not because they want to experience being a woman for shits and giggles, it’s because they feel they are a woman who was born in the wrong body and it’s grossly unfair to basically accuse them of not being a woman (I believe “playing at being a woman” was the phrase she used in one of her posts which I saw screengrabs before she took them down, is just ignorant) because they haven’t experienced what we have, well how could they? They were a man and battling their own discrimination and stereotypes and to say they are “playing” at being a woman, like it’s a choice or a lighthearted thing so, so stupid and offensive.
I also find it hilarious that this one is banging on about equality when she was more than happy to act in her skanties in Star Trek for no reason whatsoever.
the problem might be the common belief that Jenner isn’t transgender but is using this as a marketing/pr gimmick. I’m not saying Jenner is, but that’s the downside of the family association
Which is a fair point and could be a correct assessment but the particular line she picked up on was “I am for all intense and purposes a woman” which is normal statement for someone who is transgender to make, they are women/men who were born into the wrong body regardless of their phase of transition.
Eve disagreed with this, ““Until women are paid the same as men, then playing at being a ‘woman’ while retaining the benefits of being a man is unfair. […] Do you have a vagina? Are you paid less than men? Then, my friend, you are a woman.”
Its a very clumsy way to make her point, the word “playing” is very poorly chosen. These people are not “playing” at being anything.
I get what you mean, i don’t know if im making sense, bear with me here–if she thinks jenner is lying, her statements aren’t related to transgender people because she doesn’t think jenner genuinely is transgender, ergo they’re aimed at jenner personally
like this ” accurately represented in their process of self-identification” is what tipped me off, she doesn’t believe Jenner at all, and tbh that’s what she should have said then
Well if she wants to bring being a real woman into the discussion I will double down and bring being a Black woman,dealing with gender equality and racial equality.Or let’s talk about a poor Black Trans woman dealing with poverty,racism,transphobia,violent attacks,job discrimination.
It’s possible to fight more than one issue.
Bye Felicia
Exactly!!
It immediately sets up this hierarchy of struggle. And it’s ironic, because the people who get sifted to the bottom of the feminist pile — trans women, black women, gay women — are the ones who face even MORE discrimination.
Exactly. This is why intersectionality is so important.
Don’t forget about the disabled, they are usually forgotten in most discussions on equality and yet the have the biggest challenges and struggles.
So you aren’t interested in talking about feminism with a white woman? I’m confused.
THIS!!!!!!!!
This chic needs a big steaming cup of STFU!!!
I always think a great way to make your point about equal pay and gender equality is to hijack some other cause and interject with accusations with ‘if you were a woman blah blah blah.’ I’m not saying feminists aren’t right about equal pay, of course they are. But the argument is hampered when you interject your cause into someone else’s story. It demeans their story and diminishes your argument. She could have said all that and made her point without bringing up Bruce Jenner or any other transgendered person.
Yes. One has nothing to do with the other. You can be supportive of more than one cause. It’s like when people are upset over a stranded whale and other people are outraged because humans are starving in third world countries, as if you can’t feel compassion for more than one group at a time.
Exactly. It’s not a competition!
That last paragraph was spot-on, Kaiser… as was your comparison to Patricia Arquette. Thank you for bringing this up again. Why can’t we include ALL women in the fight? Why do so many cis white women hear “feminism” or “female” and only picture other cis white women?
It gets REALLY offensive for me when she starts talking about reproductive anatomy, though.
Is she aware that there are plenty of women who DON’T have vaginas and still get paid less, are objectified or bullied by strangers, don’t feel safe walking down the street, etc.? Sexism isn’t reserved for the anatomically “correct”; it affects everyone who identifies or presents as a woman.
If anything, trans women understand the struggle more than anyone. Trans women are dehumanized by men and woman alike. They don’t just have to fight for acceptance by men or straight people or mainstream society; they’re rejected by other women, by members of the GLBT community, by “feminists” who don’t think they “qualify” for equal rights.
Also, she’s an idiot because she doesn’t see the connection there. Why would someone “play at” being less respected, less understood, treated less fairly by society? It’s clearly not a choice; it’s an innate identity. She listed all the disadvantages that Bruce would face if he’d been born female… does she not realize that he’d probably trade his Olympic medal in a heartbeat for a lifetime as a woman?
At least we’re talking about this. Thanks for that, I guess, Alice. I’m always thrilled to see thoughtful discussions about intersectional feminism on a celebrity gossip blog. I know this site’s commenters/regular readers already know their stuff, but there’s not usually a big overlap between the “celeb gossip” crowd and the “feminist theory” crowd. If anyone comes here for superficial tripe and learns about being more inclusive in the process… that’s another step toward a world that no longer condones views like Alice Eve’s.
I would be more behind Bruce Jenner’s transformation if he wasn’t part of an image-making/selling machine of a family. It’s a new angle to exploit.
Ummm……..WHO??? Don’t know who this person is and I DEFINITELY don’t care. Something tells me Bruce don’t care either. Another quasi-celebrity trying to get their name in print. Fade back into obscurity dear….no one cares what you say.
I have a vagina and I am paid the same (if not better) than a lot of men in my same position (and there are women who are paid more than me in my field). Does that make me NOT a woman?
Look into radical feminism, it’s views on transgender issues are very much in line with Eve’s comments, and at the moment radical feminism is one of the main/most popular branches of feminism.
This type of thing is why so many young people are turned off feminism. Just like any other ism, feminism can’t be summed up with a catchy one-liner. Just as Christianity isn’t all love and goodness, feminism isn’t all equality and choice. Right now transphobia is rife within certain branches of feminism, there’s also an anti-sectionality movement that’s picking up steam.
There’s a lot of unpleasant views within feminism, mixed in with all the good. Always has been, but now that society’s become just a little more accepting of certain things, the ugly side of feminism is getting louder. Personally I’m moving away from identifying myself as a feminist as I now feel like I have to qualify that I’m not transphobic or racist or homophobic or classist every time I mention it. Humanism is much closer to my views than feminism right now, and it’s not my views that have changed.
So true, when I read those comments it sounded so TERF-y to me. Dangerous nonsense.
It breaks my heart a little bit that the negative people/elements are muddying the concept of feminism to the extent that you don’t want to identify as a feminist anymore. I’m still of the mindset that I want to fight against those ideas within feminism to take it back, but I know that may be naive and I completely understand why you would rather identify as a humanist.
I have that argument with myself all the time, but the area where I live is heavily populated with rad fems. Seems like every week there’s another ridiculous story about them trying to pre-emptively ban trans women from some super crappy event no one but a handful of their rad fem friends would want to go to anyway. Plus there’s just so much ignorant racism and disable-ism and homophobia. I guess I feel like where I live now, the worst kind of feminism is 90% of the feminism, therefore it’s probably what people here think of when they hear the word.
I guess I feel like if I say I’m a feminist here, I risk making someone else feel unsafe because they’ve made what is sadly a logical assumption about my views. If I was just dealing with idiots who think I’m going to steal their bra’s for my bonfire, I’d have no problem, but hurting someone with the word is a different matter.
Ah Jessica, would you happen to live where that music festival (apologies for any info I get wrong, I’ve only read about this topic) was that chose to shut down rather than allow entry to trans-women?
I also have to heartily agree with your statement of people wanting to ignore the complexity and sometimes negativity of feminism to paint it with a positivity brush. We can admit the sordid and complex past of many different issues but it seems feminism and those who stubbornly defend it 100% want to go, “No feminism is just this, no it didn’t do that, no it doesn’t mean this” when we can admit that it’s more than that, it did do that, and it does in some way mean this.
I understand in some ways the struggles though of feminists who reject someone ‘feeling’ like a girl when so much of the battle has been about proving you are equal to those in ruling party. It’s a very detailed and complicated discussion.
Ah, Mitch-fest. Good riddance I say.
That’s really too bad about the predominant feminism in your area Jessica. That makes perfect sense to me. Hurting others would be my primary concern too.
“Humanism is much closer to my views than feminism right now, and it’s not my views that have changed. ”
*nods head*
I am not a feminist scholar but I am a thoughtful feminist. I see why some radfems would like to preserve a distinction (no need to marginalize) between transgendered women and those born into female bodies, because patriarchy attacks the female gender internally (how we reflect on ourselves as being inferior within the context of the patriarchy, owing to our gender) and externally (how we are treated in society because of our gender).
I believe wholeheartedly that a transgendered woman has felt the internal marginalization of being female since she was born and identified as a woman; however, she likely has not had the same lifelong experience of the external marginalization that a woman born with female biology has. There is also room to consider that a transgendered woman has benefited from the patriarchy by being born into a biologically male body and existing in it for some period of time, as is the case with Bruce Jenner.
This distinction completely misses the issue of the marginalization inherent in being transgendered!
So, rather than tallying our woes, I believe that the helpful thing is to address what Twisty Faster at “I Blame the Patriarchy” refers to as “the patriarchal forces of misogynist hegemony” via feminism as defined by her thusly: “feminism is in fact a political movement the goal of which is the liberation of women from patriarchal oppression”.
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/
If you’re a humanist then you’re a feminist. Feminism is a philosophy and a very simple one that is about equality. I assure you there are far more standard feminists than radical ones. You shouldn’t abandon feminism just because the radicals seem the loudest.
This. Rad-fems are in no way the biggest or most popular section of feminism right now, they’re just a loud and vocal minority who happen to get a lot of attention because they are a good target for antifeminists.
Yes! Thank you for saying this. People are saying that Eve’s comments are ignorant, but I think she identifies with a stream of radical feminism. I’ve heard a couple of podcast interviews lately with radical feminists, and their take on transgendered women is…interesting.
Basically, they argue that, as men, transgendered women have grown up with male privilege, and have had all the advantages that women in this society don’t have…so for them to turn around and start being women is a slap in the face for women who have struggled against the patriarchal system since birth.
They also take issue with anyone who is still anatomically male being allowed to use a women’s bathroom, a women’s domestic violence shelter, or being placed in a women’s prison.
I don’t agree with this stance. I think it’s kind of ridiculous to argue that transgendered women are in a more powerful situation in life than other women. They face incredible amounts of discrimination and in some cases, persecution. If I had to chose being a victim of patriarchy and being descriminiate against because I was transgendered, I know which I would chose!
But, I think that is where Eve’s comments are coming from.
The way I took it was that, having started as a man, Bruce’s thoughts and comments got more validation and attention than others’ might have. That it’s kind of annoying to have someone who started as a man, and transitioned to being (whatever her concept of) a woman, start to tell others what “being a woman” is like, i.e. please do not talk to me about boobs and your freaking golf swing! I found myself comparing Chaz Bono’s transition and wondering if he got as much coverage as Bruce did. What I read about Chaz gave me more respect for him and his soul-searching in figuring out who he really is.
I know Bruce is undergoing a true struggle but the struggle itself does not make you noble. Your character does. Since I don’t know her personally I can’t speak to that.
Or they are just dumb actors without a script. I like my answer best.
Um, no. Just, no. Ignorance at her ripe age at this time in the world (when it is so easy NOT to be ignorant) is exactly the time to jump on someone. Otherwise, they are guaranteed never to learn. Otherwise, they take correction as a suggestion, not an imperative. Otherwise, they never feel the embarrassment and shame that they absolutely should feel about THEIR OWN behavior. Intersectionalism my a**. The fact that that is a term is a problem. It’s a problem because feminism should have never been considered a party by cisgender white girls for cisgender white girls – girls of color invited on Tuesdays and “fake” girls invited on Fridays. This has always been a problem with feminism. They (“feminists”) don’t stand for equality; they stand for themselves. Ironically, while deriving more benefits than any other minority. I don’t consider any woman of any color or physical sex to be a feminist if she stands for all women. And any woman of color who doesn’t know what womanism is needs to Google that term and Alice Walker stat. I will never be a feminist. I believe in equality between all women and men. Feminism has been a racist, classist institution since day one.
I kind of get her point but Bruce’s struggle is independent of feminist struggles and they really can’t be compared. It was rude to use his moment as a platform for another issue.
Yeah, I kind of wondered why she simply didn’t comment on wage inequality by itself. Bringing the two issues together seemed to convolute her main point.
On another note, I’m kind of surprised her level of articulation isn’t better since she went to Oxford.
Don’t get why the controversy. This is not a convo the country has been having for decades, it is basically brand new.
Heck, even slavery to this day will get similar “quotes” and “reactions.” Can we truly say that slavery has been abolish while looking at human trafficking?
HIV is another example, people to this day consider AIDS to be a “gay” disease or an addict affliction. When by stats we have that today a great number of people with HIV are men of the third age (above 60 yrs old) or young people.
I do find interesting this, if Bruce Jenner decides to go trough the complete process, even as a woman will he get paid more than a women because it is widely known that he was born male? I think that is food for thought.
Your second question is a good point – will the previous state of male (at least on the outside) affect his treatment in the world, specifically as pertains to shielding him somewhat from the typical experience of women (assumed to be physically weaker, more emotionally susceptible, hot-tempered, less intelligent (at least at math, science, etc.)) by those who are old enough to remember that he didn’t always present himself as a woman?
Bruce Jenner is a multi-millionaire. So the answer to question is “no”. “No” before he transitioned, “No” after he transitioned and “No” if he transitions back. He will enjoy a privileged life regardless of his gender identity.
I think the problem with her comment is that she makes clear that she doesn’t really think of Bruce as a woman, but a man who wants to be a woman but will always be a man, and that triggered her insensitive and ignorant comment.
The traditional concepts of man and women still dominate the vast majority of society, and it will take a lot of time and patience to change it.
Yes, and I thought “playing at being a woman” was sort of mocking his genuine struggle to be who he really is. This isn’t a game for him.
How are you guys so sure he doesn’t have a mental disorder?
Why does it have to be one or the other? It’s a big world and we can fight for many things all at once.
Thank you Kaiser. Your closing statement is everything. I’m heartsick by all of the ‘my cause is better than your cause’ that seems to be going on of late.
I agree; the moment someone mentions a hardship or struggle, a common reaction is “yeah, well, what about the time that I had *this* happen to me…” I learned a lot in college, away from home the first time and meeting new people with experiences I had never witnessed before. A friend and I used to kind of become combative over the idea of whose struggle was more “real” – mine as a black woman or his as a (white) gay man, specifically because I felt at the time that at the very least he could hide who he was if it suited him, or if he felt that the knowledge of his orientation may hurt him in a particular situation, which was something I could never do. I came to later realize that this also had its downside, in that I imagine he saw and heard much worse than I ever did because of how people tend to show their true ignorant colors when they don’t know who’s listening or that a person from the group they’re insulting is sitting right next to them. I can’t imagine hearing something like that and having to decide whether visibly reacting would help me or hurt me in the long run.
One of the lessons I learned with cancer is to try not to judge other people’s perceptions of their troubles. Just because there are worse things happening to other people doesn’t mean that the thing happening to you doesn’t suck. And if your thing is worse than someone else’s, it doesn’t mean they aren’t suffering. We should support each other and good causes, not try to rank them or belittle them for not being the worst possible scenario on earth.
I’m not sure he said he knows what it’s like to be a woman in this world, but at the very least you can agree that even if he can’t personally identify with an entire lifetime of womanhood (at least as pertains to the way society treats him), he is nevertheless fighting a battle that most women will never face?
Edit: this was to a post that appears to have been deleted.
“he is nevertheless fighting a battle that most women will never face?”
That’s true, I’m not denying that.
And yes, free speech is dead.
She’s got a right to her opinion. Don’t like it? Walk away.
But you can’t disagree with the majority these days. You have a right to state your opinion as long as that opinion goes in line with what the majority deems appropriate and right.
Everyone else gets silenced and attacked.
*deleted*
That’s why everyone else has to speak up more without backtracking or apologizing. We’re letting the PC crowd run us out of the publich sphere. We’re even letting them coin new words that make the opposition sound like they have a mental disorder rather than a valid criticism. Transphobic? Homophobic? Really? Is that like aracnophobia? Do I just need to hold a gay man in my hand until I’m cured by no longer being afraid? That is what they would have you do to an irrational fear of spiders (arachnaphobia). Don’t let the PC crowd run you out of town with pitchforks and torches.
+100 Angee. Last I checked we still had the right to free speech.
He wouldn’t want to be a woman if he lived somewhere like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. There are very distinct disadvantages and dangers that exist only if you have been BORN female. On a global scale the most serious crimes against women are committed because we are born that way and are considered inferior. Sex slavery, forced child marriage (and the following rape and dangerous pregnancies on barely developed bodies), fgm, honour killings, death penalty for rape victims etc….
Presenting an appearance to what is fashionable for females in current western culture does not a woman make.
Umm… and how exactly do you think trans* people fare in those countries?
why cant she say what she wants. It is her opinion and besides not everyone agres with Bruces decision. I dont agree with it, being gay and trans is so wrong on so many levels!
I don’t know why everyone got so mad at Eve. Clearly people have very thin skins nowadays. Personally, I don’t care what Bruce Jenner does with himself as long as it is not hurting anyone else, but….he is not a woman. If he had had to menstruate every month for 35 years I am quite sure he would have changed his mind. If he had to keep his calories much lower to not get fat, I am sure he would change his mind. If he had not been able to win at the olympics because the female body is slower and weaker, he would not have wanted to be a woman. These men that say they are now woman have had all the advantages and now suddenly want the advantages of being a woman without any of the physical or societal struggle that goes along with it. I believe he wants to have his cake and eat it, too. Cue all the raging screeches at me for being ‘transphobic’! What is a white person decided there had been a black person inside them all along and changed their skin colour….there would be outrage, I think.
I think you’re assuming that Bruce just decided one day to be a woman, after he had lived life as a man and taken advantage of those social benefits. But I think he has always felt like he was really a woman inside, and is only now having the courage to admit it. It’s really hard for someone who hasn’t experienced these feelings to imagine what it would be like, but try to imagine if you were you, but born in the body of a man. Wouldn’t that be awful? You would have to pretend your whole life to be something you weren’t. You might have chosen to keep pretending, but it was making him really unhappy. So he’s changing that now. I don’t think he made the decision lightly, and I think it took a lot of courage for him to come out with this.
I wholeheartedly agree, Marigold. We were proud to be born women, but are shamed when WE attempt to share our ‘struggle with identity’… In a world where men still get to decide how women should be women, why aren’t women allowed to define it for ourselves? Why be silent? Because we might hurt the feelings of a man who decides to come sit at the female table? Don’t tell me to shove my feelings aside for yours, the patriarchy has been telling women that forever, song as old as time…..
But he’s not telling you to shove your feelings aside for his.
Marigold, Bruce is not the first and only person in the world to ever have these feelings. Unless you have been going through this mental situation, how can you know if he can change his mind? If he could change his mind, he probably would have 60 years ago. Why would someone want to go through such confusing stress?
I only had my period for 32 years. Am I less of a woman who gets it longer?
“Personally, I don’t care what Bruce Jenner does with himself as long as it is not hurting anyone else”
Sounds like a very tolerant, if a tad flippant, way of looking at this.
After that, it sounds like willful ignorance. You proceed to list all the reasons why you DO care and how it IS hurting you. Then you throw in a comparison of apples and oranges at the end that makes me think you’re just an angry person that thinks the world is no longer allowing you to say offensive and prejudiced things. You have that right, but the world has a right to screech and rage right back.
And for the record, please tell Florence Griffith Joyner or Shelly Ann Frasier that the female body is slower and weaker.
You appear to be under the assumption that it’s an easy thing to be transgender. That it wouldn’t be soul crushingly hard to look in the mirror every day and feel like the wrong person is staring back out at you. In many ways, male privilege is rendered moot with trans individuals, because they’re viewed as ‘freaks’ and ‘less than’. Anyone that actually knows a trans individual wouldn’t say that he was taking the easy road in any way. It is a physically and emotionally difficult transition on its own, let alone without the social condemnation (which people give quite freely).
And just out of curiosity, would you feel differently about someone like Chaz Bono? Born a woman, who is now a man? One certainly couldn’t say that he took the easy way – he didn’t grow up with male privilege in any way.
The tone of what she said STINKS–why does every celeb think they need to be heard on social media. I am glad that I do not know who she is, nor do I care to.
If you don’t agree with it, keep it moving–no one cares.
belittling someone’s plight because “you don’t agree” is rude–nonetheless.
I think the issue is so many marginalized members of society are starting to be heard and their experiences are changing for the better-slowly for sure-but changing. When it seems the experience women have seems to change even more slowly. Few people seem to even understand what feminism is. Anyone telling you what to do based on your sex isn’t okay. You do what works for you-period, end of story.
i guess this whole Hollywood feminism was a big mistake.
starlets now pretty much feel pressure to engage in feminist activism and we all know how involved celebs are usually in their causes…this is the result of it.
Hollywood has always been very loud when it came to minority rights but never changed itself. and lets face is most famous people do it solely for themselves, see Alice, she is actually thinking that her equal pay activism would be a good way to bash another human being for her own gain.
Patricia Arquette didn’t say anything wrong. She was right. She was making a point about people who know what it’s like to be opressed should also join the fight.
This woman however was taking the wrong approach in her attempt to be feminist. Trying too hard to find an inequality angle and it was just stupid. So Bruce Jenner is famous because he was a man in the Olympics. What is your point, Alice Eve? What a moron picking the wrong battles. There are much better examples of sexism.
Oh lord, this thread has gone down the tube. This is so depressing after reading so many encouraging, open-minded and thoughtful responses on previous days. I guess we still have a long way to go.
Agree, it’s very discouraging.
Holy @(#+#+-@-#+$(#!!!!¡!! Did this chic just fall butt backwards into a Hot Mess!!! She didn’t do ANYONE Any favors by speaking. She’s just one of those people who shouldn’t have social media accounts. Not everyone is meant to have a platform… Smh. I just gotta laugh at this woman. Even the bible says fools should remain silent. Not all of us were meant to represent the group. #sheDontSpeakForTHISChic
I can’t at the ignorance people are showing here.
Just be glad you were born in the right body.
That’s all I’ll say.
so once again us women, who are still fighting for equal pay and for the right to our own bodies, are now being told our bodies don’t matter when it comes to defining “woman” and that we should shut up so a male can tell us that he counts as a female now.
so once again a male defines “woman” in a way that gives him what he wants.
because that isn’t male privilege at all.
what makes a “wrong body”? wanting to do something society says you shouldn’t want? alter your body all you want. my point is that the appearance of the body does not define womanhood.
It’s not just men who are transitioning to women, women are also transitioning to men. Would you care to tell them they don’t get to define manhood because it might give them what they want?
No one is truly free or equal until we are all free and equal. But a few can be privileged while the rest are not. Funny how that works.
I usually drive thru and leave a comment, don’t come back because this is not a chat room. I’m one of those who was offended the other day, and came back with a different mindset and harsh words. However, my opinion of this site has changed, I used to think it a fun place, now I read a lot of hate and reverse prejudice. A couple of words and phrases that I take exception to: ‘transphobia’. The word phobia means fear–i am not afraid of Bruce Jenner, and I doubt if Alice is either. The other: ‘female assigned at birth’ stop!! Isn’t it logical to simply say ‘born female’?
People keep referring to him as transgender – is he a woman now or a transgender person?
And sure he is free to call himself whatever he wants to call himself and define himself as he pleases. He’s got that right and I don’t blame him.
Luckily there’s no one single definition of a woman, so there’s that. We’re all different anyway. He’ll never view being a woman the way I do, and vice versa, but hey, we’re both free to think what we want.
Am I not reading this right? I don’t think what she is saying is transphobic. Transphobia seems like it would involve expressing disgust or some other negative emotional reaction around the idea of one gender transitioning to another. I read her as saying in order to be a woman, you have to experience a lifetime of discrimination. And Bruce has had all the benefits of being male so becoming a woman now…she sees it as “playing” because he hasn’t lived a woman’s life. She’s pointing out that it’s not simply about the physical, but also experiential. If you want to become a woman, you should be open to absorbing the experiences of woman. I liken her argument about Bruce to what Azaleia Banks says about Iggu Azalea–she wants to play at pop-rap but she doesn’t want anything to do with black issues.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with this actress; I’m just saying I don’t see the transphobia in her message.
^^In the same vein, Shania Twain joined a First Nations tribe because that’s how she identifies, despite not being an actual First Nations descendant. And that should rightly be controversial–First Nations people have a right to an opinion on that. Their identity has cost them greatly and they are the ones who should decide how it is assumed.
Why is that offensive? Why can’t we have these discussions without being labeled transphobic or racist? To me, that undermines the meaning of those words. Don’t cheapen them by throwing them around lightly. They have important meanings and refer to experiences that stretch across centuries and civilizations. How can you have honest, important discussions about issues if you don’t define them properly? Transphobia has a narrow definition. It should not overlap with all dissenting conversation on claims to female identity.
Ok, I have thought more about it. I think people were taking offense to her characterization of “playing” at being a woman, because that word is often used to belittle the desires of transgender people (eg “playing” dress up and whatnot). But a close reading of her words suggests that she’s referring to playing with the experience of being a woman–assuming the parts he wants and not the parts he doesn’t want. I think she’s pointing out that Bruce is treating this as a unilateral experience. HE identifies with a community so he is part of it. But it is a bilateral experience and discussion needs to be had across communities. It’s too bad this one was shut down, and that Celebitchy can’t do a better job at acknowledging opportunities for discussion around a broader range of associated issues. Really. Think harder, Celebitchy.
I never thought I’d live to see the day that George Orwell’s science fiction would become real. All I am reading here is people chastising each other for using the “wrong” words and having the “wrong” thoughts. Slippery, slippery slope that does downhill, fast, to nowhere good.
It is scary what the PC, liberal crowd is doing. Even attaching the word phobic to things like homophobic or transphobic makes it sounds like the opposition has a mental disease like agoraphobia or arachnaphobia. It is their way of minimizing the criticism by characterizing the dissinting as ignorant and mentally duseased, rather than having a valid criticism or a thinking mind.
So disagreeing with opinion of the
Masses automatically qualifies you as
Ignorant?
To the PC crowd any dissenting opinion qualifies you as ignorant. Just rebut them and get on with your day. No reason your voice should be silenced.
Certainly Alice Eve didn’t put things in too smart phrasings. Nevertheless the point which she raises is interesting: will Bruce Jenner – now that he is a woman – suffer from the same disadvantages that all women suffer from like wage inequality and and and?
I agree Question now, with you 100%. While I think what Bruce Jenner has done is incredibly brave and amazing, I think Alice Eve made some interesting points ( in a very inarticulate and stupid way) about the EXPERIENCE of living as a woman . I think she confused ” begin a woman” with the experience of living as a woman. The fact that Bruce identified as a conservative Republican on the show, a party that has repeatedly voted against wage equality for women, is obsessed with limiting women’s reproductive freedom, and is trying to help employers limit the access their employees have to contraception, seems to demonstrate that he has a real disconnect about what the everyday lives of regular women are like and what the experience of being a woman is like. (Not to mention that the Republican party is against gay marriage and homosexuality, bruce identifies as hetero but did he state what he thinks about homosexuality?but I digress) I think his interview was so brave in so many ways but his political views ( which I know very little about ) give the impression that he is another wealthy white guy whose wealth and privilege protect him from the ugly realities that most women have to deal with every day. Had he been born a woman, he never would have been able to acquire his wealth in the way that he did,because as Alice so rightly points out, women can’t compete in the triathalon. I think angry or not everyone has made really intesting points and I’ve learned so much today. i think its amazing that we’re even having this discussion (angry or not) and make me feel really optimistic about society.:)
This actress was clearly “playing at” upping her press coverage and attempting to sound intelligent. She lost the game.
Good luck to Ms Jenner, I can never walk that mile your shoes but I will be more than happy to give you make up tips so you don’t end up looking like Pmk.
(Using Ms Jenner is the highest respect I can pay -she no longer indentifies as male and we do not know her name yet and it’s beyond sad to me I had to paren that because the commentators here always have knifes out)
For the record, though, trans-exclusionary feminism isn’t new. Not saying I agree with it, but it isn’t just her saying these things.
This, people is what a Oxford education grants you…
Transfobia? Liberals love to make up words that make critics sound like they have a mental disease. *eye roll*