The second part of Megyn Kelly’s exclusive interview with the Duggars airs tonight on Fox News at 9 pm. I’m already prepared to hate-watch it and yes, I’ll probably be live-tweeting it too, like I did on Wednesday night. Tonight’s interview will mostly be with Jessa and Jill Duggar, the two oldest (that we know of) victims of Josh Duggar’s molestation. As I said yesterday, Jessa and Jill “outed” themselves as Josh’s victims when they signed on to this Fox News interview – before that moment, media outlets had shown restraint in not getting into specifics about the victims, and In Touch Weekly had redacted their names in their reporting. Ahead of the interview airing tonight, Megyn Kelly sat down with Extra to give a preview of her exclusive (you can see the video here). Kelly says that Jill and Jessa have forgiven Josh:
Megyn on Jill & Jessa’s state of mind: “They started off as your normal 22, 24-year-old girls, a little bubbly, kinda giggly, and then when we did get into it the tears started to flow… imagine how painful that would be… they never chose to have this piece of their family story put out there, and I think they are struggling with what people are assuming about their family and about what happened to them.”
Whether Megyn thinks they have forgiven their brother: “I do, yeah I do. They told me that. They also talked about the journey from the pain to the forgiveness, and it was not without some bumps in the road. All of the children went through counseling, all of them, not just Josh, not just the victims, all of them went through licensed therapist counseling to try to get through what happened.”
Megyn hopes to talk to Josh: “Of course, I would love to talk to Josh, he’s really the best one to talk about what happened and why, and where he is today. I think that is what a lot of people are wondering. Does this make him a child molester? Do you have to worry about him on an ongoing basis? He has three young children and one on the way. He’s around a lot of young children.”
Props to Megyn for ending that interview on such a dark, hard note. That’s been largely unspoken in all of these stories – Josh is a parent with three young children (and another on the way). It’s so sick and horrific to even think about what the situation could be.
As for Jessa and Jill and their forgiveness… it feels like they’ve been brainwashed over a lifetime of crappy parenting and the “normalization” of terrible behavior from their parents and their brother. As I said in the earlier In Touch post, it feels like there’s still another shoe to drop. I don’t believe the family – especially the victims of Josh’s criminal acts – were given the psychological support needed to deal with everything appropriately. I believe – given the ongoing reporting and the pick-the-lie-you-want-to-believe stories coming from the Duggars – that the family likely went into some hokey super-religious counseling in which the victims were blamed for somehow causing the abuse.
Photos courtesy of the Duggars’ social media.
“Does this make him a child molester?” Yes, Megyn. Yes, it does. He molested children, ergo, he is a child molester. Why is this so difficult for these people?
Something I really wish Megyn Kelly would have addressed-for a family that considers hugging before marriage inappropriate and too sexually suggestive, how do you justify “over the clothes” (and I strongly suspect that’s not where it ended) touching? What if one of their adult daughter’s had engaged in that with a boyfriend? What about Michelle Duggar suggesting trans people are more inclined to molest children-if your own son is the one sexually abusing a child, is it OK, then? The hypocrisy of this family is disgusting.
Good question.
And it didn’t all take place over clothing. The most disturbing incident described in the report InTouch released involves Josh taking a girl into the laundry room and removing her clothes. When describing what happened, the victim said “it felt funny” – leading me to believe someone *very* young was talking. All of it makes my skin crawl but that particular incident? Pure revulsion.
Yes – I haven’t watched the interviews, I couldn’t stand more than 30 seconds of their BS yesterday, but from the summary it seems like she never addressed the hypocrisy. And she really, really should have.
And, @D21 (below…not sure why my reply has posted above??) – I see your broader point but the fact is that we are not talking about a slap on the bum or a peck on the cheek here. What has been reported is the absolute minimum of what may have happened and that is bad enough. Almost certainly, as with any sexual crime and ESPECIALLY given their horrifically twisted philosophy/teachings, it will have been under-reported and the acts committed will have been even worse.
Because of his age. Lots of people aren’t comfortable branding somebody for life over something that happened when they were 14 or 15. If he’s continued, if he’s a continuing threat, that is one thing, if they were acts committed by a young teen who recognized the issue, and hasn’t re offended, then a lot of people don’t want to see an entire life thrown away over early mistakes.
14 really isn’t the same as 24 or 34 or 44. There’s a reason society doesn’t let 14 year olds make big decisions and it’s because we understand their judgment isn’t that of an adult.
While that is true and I get it, the propensity of a teen directing this activity toward very young, undeveloped children is odd. And lilac mentioned that another instance occurred when he was older, so there was a pattern. Whether he could formally be DX-ed, I have no clue.
There was an interview with someone on the legal side as I recall. If the perpetrator is under twelve, they do not bring charges but there is mandatory counseling and an intervention. After twelve, things change.
At fourteen or fifteen, yes there actually is some recognition that this is no longer a child and criminal charges can be brought, especially if the age difference is so pronounced. Josh Dugger was not a fifteen year old fooling around with a thirteen year old– he assaulted a five year old child. Please bear in mind that he continued to be a threat for a good long time under the parents watch.
Interestingly, Arkansas passed legislation making it easier to try children as young as fourteen *as adults,* legislation that was signed by none other than Huckabee. Oops!
I have a 15 year old son and I would not buy it for a second if anyone suggested he was too young to know better. I don’t get this willingness to lessen the crime based on his age.
I could see a kid that age sneaking a peek at porn or trying to cop a feel with a teen peer. That would seem to jibe more with the normal sexual development/ curiosity part. But I am no expert in these matters.
@Kiddo And how was Josh supposed to get that porn or the unsupervised access to a teen peer?
They had a gazillion kids, they knew where he was every minute of the day? They didn’t know he was in the daughters’ bedrooms. I don’t understand the excuses or justifications for him having no choice but to molest sisters, or to molest anyone at all actually.
Because when we say “child molester” we are generally referring to an adult motivated by a deviant sexual attraction to children, not a child motivated by curiosity about the anatomy of the opposite sex. What he did was very very wrong and disturbing but there has also been a very disturbing trend lately of giving adult motivations to children.
He directed this at prepubescent, very young girls, who demonstrated no physical outward hint of sexuality, so there is an element there of either propensity or access. He was not directing the sexual curiosity at females his own age. So while there are limitations on formal characterizations or diagnoses below a certain age, this still reads as troublesome.
He wasn’t a child, though. According to reports, this occurred when he was 14-17 years old. Okay, just maybe, if we’re pushing it, at 14 he could be considered a curious child, naturally interested in learning about the opposite sex, but at 17? Not so much a child any more. And these weren’t peers he was exploring with, these were his sisters. His much, much younger sisters.
I can’t see how a 17 year old sexually touching a 5 year old (and a sibling at that) can be described by anything else but “child molesting”.
@Kiddo – Oh, it is troublesome, no doubt about it. Although it does sound like most of the curiosity was directed toward females near his own age so I am not convinced this was about “attraction” per se. But I don’t really care about defending this person specifically. I know very little about this family. I have have just been disturbed by a lot of comments suggesting he will always be a “child molester” who should have been thrown in jail for the rest of his life…at 14. I couldn’t help but remember that 14 year old whose school put “sexual assault” on his permanent record because he impulsively slapped a girl on the butt, or the six year old who was suspended and had “sexual harassment” put on his permanent record for kissing a little girl on the cheek. Far far less serious situations obviously. Still, our society needs to be very careful not to give up on children so easily.
DN21, I haven’t heard anything about this curiosity being directed at his own age group. Maybe I missed this.
Your larger point is well taken. Sometimes, for example, a kid being 17 or 18, having sex with a 16 yo (NOT A SIBLING), does not, in my mind necessarily qualify as a sex offender, if there was no rape, and there was consent. The age range is so close in maturity, and to have that tag for all of life, where there will be no threat to society, is a miscarriage to justice. But the fact that these acts were perpetrated upon his own family, with much younger siblings, as a pattern, gives me pause. The fact that they selected a trooper with his own sick proclivities, to talk to their son, only adds to the distastefulness of this story. That the Duggars consider these events as something ‘normal’ or widespread’ in families, is truly disturbing.
It wasn’t harmless curiosity! He was an older teen who sexually assaulted his sisters, including a 5 year old. Call it what it is.
@ Wren – Are you sure about him being 17? From what I read that was the age he was when he was interviewed about it, not when it occurred. If he was 17 when it happened it would definitely be a different situation and it is still disturbing regardless. Don’t get me wrong! But 14 is just too young to label.
@Pedro45 – Who is saying it was harmless? Not me I assure you! It was also definitely sexual assault. That’s not what’s in question. Although I don’t agree 14 is an “older teen”. He was definitely messed up though.
@Kiddo – Agreed.
He was drawn to younger girls. He wasn’t sexually exploring or experimenting with a peer. He was considerably older than his victims and in a position of “power” as set forth by his “religion.” He molested children and I doubt he’s changed all that much.
I won’t treat those who have molested children for two main reasons: 1 – I have children. 2 – molesters rarely, if ever, change.
Yes, and unless we are willing to treat all 14 year olds as adults in a court of law, including Lena Dunham who was 17 when she did some stuff, people need to calm down about him. Yes, he had some serious issues. No, he wasn’t a pedophile.
@Jib, Lena Dunham was 7, not 17, when she reported touching her sister. So I think that’s why a lot of people were willing to think she probably doesn’t rise to be an abuser. The masturbation incident when she was a teen is weirder, for sure, but she didn’t touch her sister’s body. To me, it just seems a lot less clearcut than a male teen climbing into bed with at least four different sleeping girls, multiple times, one of which was FIVE years old, and repeatedly touching their genitals.
I also think you are missing that the reason many people react so strongly to the Duggers (vs. Dunham) is that the Duggers have repeatedly issued many claims of moral authority. They spin themselves as icons of moral purity. It is hard to say Dunham has done the same. As Jesus said, those in glass houses should not throw stones… or if they do, they shouldn’t expect everyone not to throw them back when they’re caught protecting their son who molested a series of girls.
Jib- Please just stop already.
It’s transparent as hell.
Jib, you know no more than anyone else as to whether he is a pedophile or not. Unequivocally stating that he is not is the same as unequivocally stating that he is.
According to the Duggar narrative, the only reason it was uncovered was because of his confession. People who suffer consequences from actions can: 1. go on to change, if they don’t have irrepressible urges that they can’t contain or 2. they don’t change, but conceal what they know put them in hot water in the first place.
None of us really know which of those scenarios are true. Further, one can BE a pedophile while not acting out as a child molester. Meaning they still have the desire, but don’t act upon it.
And, @D21 (sorry, I posted this reply in the wrong place before – above your comment which makes no sense!) – I see your broader point but the fact is that we are not talking about a slap on the bum or a peck on the cheek here. What has been reported is the absolute minimum of what may have happened and that is bad enough. Almost certainly, as with any sexual crime and ESPECIALLY given their horrifically twisted philosophy/teachings, it will have been under-reported and the acts committed will have been even worse.
I grew up in a family sort of like this. My parents had the same “morals” and “values” as these people and there were seven of us, each one year apart. We went to private christian schools and our social circle was limited to the church. We shared bedrooms and there was no such thing as privacy anywhere in our lives. The main difference between us and the duggers is that our parents were military so we moved around a lot and were able to get some exposure to real people. With my background I also am having trouble labeling josh a ped*file. We all know how strong sexual urges are in pre and pubesent teenagers, especially for boys. I remember all the lectures about keeping your mind pure and having it drummed into our heads to never let impure thoughts enter into your mind or terrible things might happen (why a girl could be raped for just wearing slutty clothes and it would be her fault for tempting the rapist). No one ever told us that these thoughts of sexual things were perfectly normal for growing minds and that the urges were not “disgusting and from the devil” but were actually normal, as is exploring sexuality and self fulfillment. What exactly do these people think the boy was supposed to do with natural thoughts and urges about sexuality? Pray them away? I remember when my parents practically had an aneurism and had to get counseling from the pastor when they found tame por*o magazines in my 16 year old brothers bedroom. They all acted like he was going to hell on a hand rail for being curious about sex! Honestly, and this may seem harsh, but I blame the parents for not understanding their own children and expecting them to control something they could not control with “prayer” and “godly thoughts” as their only outlet. If he had been allowed to honestly talk to someone (educated) about his urges before he ended up touching one of his sisters it probably would not have happened. They basically created the perfect storm for this to happen. These type of family’s create this situation, I’ve seen it more than once. Luckily I had great older siblings who always let us younger ones know that our parents and the church elders were the ones who were not normal and it was OK to be like the “rest of the world” and no one was going to hell over it. I know I suck at expressing my thoughts on this situation (the actual education in those Bible based schools wasn’t the greatest either, I guess it was hard to find educated people to actually teach most of that crap!) But I do think that if what josh did was the only time it ever happened than it could have just been a sexually repressed teenager wanting to touch a member of the opposite sex, and having no outlet led to having no boundaries. Hopefully maybe the counseling might have taught him something about that. That doesn’t mean he’s not a child toucher now it’s just I don’t think this means he definately is. Does that even make sense or did some of the brainwashing from my childhood warp my pov?
Phat girl, It happened more than once. And how does one get to thinking that sex with outsiders is sinful and you’re going to hell, so don’t look at porn or touch girls your own age, but somehow all of that hellfire and brimstone fear is negated if you sexually abuse your own siblings? Wouldn’t the fear of the sin be equal? Why wouldn’t the sin be worse for perpetrating it on a sister?
@Phat Girl-So why did your brother end up looking at a tame p*rno rag instead of molesting children?
I mean, you describe a very similar upbringing as the Duggars full of religious oppression and sexual repression, so why didn’t your brother end up going the Josh Duggar route?
You have to understand that this type of family is taught that ‘everything’ from watching a tv show or enjoying secular music is a sin. Eventually you become desensitized to sin altogether. When pretty much anything that feels good is sinful than you just become confused and God forbid you should say something that actually makes sense and contradicts the teaching because then you get to hear the “professing themselves to be wise, they became as fools” lecture they pull out when one of the sinners makes sense. They teach you to deny intelligence and curiosity as wrong and dwell only on faith and obedience. Pretty soon you begin to rationalize your behavior, when in reality you don’t actually understand it you’re just trying to fill a need. It’s a huge mindfuck for sure when there are no gray areas.
@ Kitten, Probably because he wasn’t the oldest and luckily for us our oldest sister was rebelious, smart, and fearless. She always made sure we knew that we were not bad for thinking differently and that one day we would be old enough to think for ourselves and make our own decisions. She showed us the sheer stupidity of what we were being taught. What I can’t understand about this family is why none of the older children have shown any desire to get the hell out of that religion. All seven of the children in my family cut out the day we became 18. We are all now normal adults with normal families, (a few problems with self esteem and resentment toward our parents not withstanding) even our parents have mellowed a lot in thier old age. (not completely, but they have shown a propensity towards loving their children and grand children even though we all chose not to follow in their beliefs.) These kids seem to want to keep the crazy going and pass it on to their own children, that is more confusing to me than anything else I see with this family.
I think you have to look at both the age of Josh when he molested his sisters and their ages when asking these questions. Another question to ask is whether it’s possible to change attraction to prepubescent children. Is it? Can counseling correct this very disturbing behavior? I don’t think so. If Josh had been touching, fondling, experimenting with girls his own age at 14 or close to it, like 12, then whether it was his sisters or not, I would say this is completely different. But for a 14 year old to touch a 5 year old? Come on, that’s very disturbing at the least.
Even Shepard smith said yes it does mean he’s a child molester yesterday.
Jill and Jessa may be saying he’s not because it’s a defense mechanism to downplay what happened to them. I feel very sorry for them and I know what it’s like to downplay abuse to move past it.
Jib: No, people do not need to calm down. What he did was shocking, not just due to the discrepancy between his and his victims ages, but because it was incestuous as well.
Secondly, yes he IS a paedophile. Here’s the Wikipedia definition which as you will see is taken from the DSM:
Pedophilia is termed pedophilic disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), and the manual defines it as a paraphilia in which adults or adolescents 16 years of age or older have intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that they have either acted on or which cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty.[1] The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) defines it as a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age.[3]
Not sure how to bold bits, but if I could I would bold the ‘adolescents 16 years or older’ and the ‘prepubertal or early pubertal age’ bits.
I don’t know if he is a pedophile, but he was, at least at one point in time, a child molester.
They have no choice ( In a lot in their life.)
They been groomed to not have a voice. So they take whatever is thrown at them.
So why does Lena Dunham’s sister say it’s OK what her sister did to her?? Masturbating in bed with her 10 year old sister when she was 17 and then discussing her young body being there.
The double standard being shown is just breathtaking.
What does Lena Dunham have to do with this? If we say Lena is a pedophile does that make Josh one too? Because your logic in response to the above commenter, who didn’t mention her, makes ZERO sense.
Adding because it wasn’t saved: WHAT LENA did was grossly unfair to her sister in terms of revealing the stories in her book, at the least. Her sister likely felt OBLIGATED to minimize the impact, as well. But these women have demonstrated extreme parameters based on religious tenets, in terms of side hugs, and whatnot, that their own sexuality, aside from abuse, was heavily dictated.
This person is obsessed and trying so desperately to steer the conversation away from the Duggars and onto another celebrity.
I know very little about LD’s situation, but why is it being compared here? There are enough attempts at deflection being tossed around already by the family and their supporters.
Of course they have. They intend to go to heaven one day.
Ten bucks say they are PTSD though.
i am interested in what their husbands think? i am interested if one of them will break bad
Exactly what I was thinking…. though Im sure they’ve been conditioned all these years to stick with the family motto of “it’s no big deal.”
Isn’t it possible, just possible, that these women know their own minds and genuinely feel forgiveness?
When Lena dunhams sister was like “don’t call me a victim,” I don’t remember this kind of dismissal of her statements as just brainwashing.
I agree with you. It feels really icky to me to question how they’re dealing with this. Forgiveness is a way to move forward, and they are allowed to move forward, even if other people haven’t had enough drama and justice porn yet.
You may be right but you cannot compare the two situations, in my opinion, because the Duggar girls have no one to turn to except their parents, family, or church. The Dunham girl could turn to friends, teachers, etc.
My biggest issue with the Duggar situation (besides the molestation, of course) is that the girls have no one to turn to for help because they are so isolated by their parents. They are helpless and so dependent that they have no real choice but to forgive Josh. I feel terrible for the girls but maybe “ignorance is bliss”?
I just don’t think that it’s right to place them in a perpetual victim state. It’s really horrible to be told that “you’re actually helpless and dependent and brainwashed” when trying to cope with life as it unfolds. They don’t owe us public suffering and anger. If I personally had to choose between keeping things to myself or opening up to someone who is waiting to turn my personal suffering into an even bigger drama, I’d be quiet.
I’m all for vocally questioning their religion, and I think what they do is sick, but we don’t have to burn these girls at the stake whilst seeking for justice.
As a preschooler to age 8, I was molested by an older teen. I forgive this person. Do I want to interact with this person or have this person in my life? Hell no, but I forgive her. I found it much harder to forgive my mother, who never contacted the authorities, never sought counseling for me and continued to speak with this person, as if nothing had happened. I say this to point out that, yes, it’s possible to forgive someone who has violated you in this way. I can see how they can forgive their brother, but I’d imagine it would be uncomfortable for them to be around him. My stepfather didn’t actually “molest” me, but definitely crossed boundaries. He tried to catch me undressing, would lie in my bed, massage me and tried to make me hug him for no reason. I have a hard time forgiving that. He’s still married to my mother, and now acts like he was this wonderful step-dad. I still do not want him near me, but basically fake like everything’s okay for the “family’s” sake. My mother knew about his behavior and again did nothing, so it’s not like she cares. I think that’s what child abuse victims do, sacrifice themselves for their “family.”
Have you read the quiverfull manual on molestation?
Yes, this is a real thing that is taught to all the girls about how to deal with a molester.
Lesson 1: it is the victim’s fault.
Lesson 2: victim deserved to be molested because they tempted their molester. No qualifier on victim’s age. Therefore a baby girl is a temptress and boys can’t change baby girl diapers for this reason.
Lesson 4: the victim is ALWAYS in the wrong. Never the molester. Victim must never blame the molester.
Lesson 5: a victim should be grateful if this happens to them because it means they had failed their faith somehow and this is an opportunity to bring them closer to god.
Lesson 6: Victim MUST forgive or they damn their soul. The soul is the most important thing here, not their bodies. No equivalent details on how they should forgive except to pray harder.
And so on and so forth.
BTW, the fact that they have a detailed manual on child molesting of girls tells you how prevalent it is.
In his own words in the Fox Interview, Jim Bob confirmed what we all suspected as far as the epidemic of child molestation of girls in the movement. He said he spoke to other families (plural) and this was normal behaviour.
The other important tenet of their faith is that children must ALWAYS be cheerful towards their elders. If the girls do not forgive Josh as requested, it upsets the parents. Upsetting the parents is a no-no. No matter how they personally feel about it, the girls will acquiece with what ever the parents and the superior males order. If that means forgiving Josh, downplaying the incidents, defending him, so be it.
All these rules are taught from babyhood. Not obeying these rules risks their souls.
That said, they could have genuinely forgiven him and genuinely wish to defend him, but that is hard to believe given the values they have been given which insist they behave in a particular way or risk their souls.
And their god is not a forgiving god. It’s all hellfire and brimstone so they better tow the line pronto or else!!!
Word.
I wonder if that’s the other shoe? Not so much about the Duggers themselves or Josh, just that this type of thing is ridiculously common in their movement. Maybe that’s why they seem much less horrified and disturbed then we consider appropriate for the circumstances. Like this sort of thing happens all the time in their religious sect (cult) and it’s just a thing you deal with and why are we still talking about this? They’re not just protecting themselves, but their entire movement. Like the Catholic Church alter boy scandal. “Nothing to see here, we’ve got it under control, move along.”
I have not read it. But the Duggars deny they belong to that movement. There may be similarities in their beliefs, but I’m not going to attribute that manual to them without more.
Voice of reason: the Duggars don’t self identify as quiverfull, but they follow all the rules and only hang out with other Quiverfull families.
Many of their positions and statements are tenets of the quiverfull movement.
The scriptures they tend to sprout as inspiration for their way of life are also sprouted by others who follow their doctrine.
There are bloggers on the Internet who self-identify as ex-quiverfull who have pointed out repeatedly and for years that the Duggars are of their ilk.
They’ve all posted the manual and other ways that the Duggars are behaving that nail them to the quiverfull cross.
LAK, Im willing to take people at their word about their beliefs without more proof of the contrary. Bloggers are free to say whatever they want on the Internet, but I don’t believe in “guilt” by association. People describe them as quiver full and maybe they even have friends who are, but that’s just not enough for me.
Also I do understand the point. This is a gossip website and speculation is expected. However, it’s all speculation. Some commenters seem really convinced they KNOW. And given the subject matter, I think this deserves more sensitivity than speculating over the state of the affleck garner marriage.
How’s this: Michelle was once considered a victim. Somewhere along the line, we started to respect her agency and now she’s painted as a monster. When are people going to let these adult women have their agency?
Well said, and very thought-provoking, LAK.
Voice of reason: The Duggars’ reality show demonstrates their values. We don’t need to believe the bloggers. We can see and listen straight from the horses’ mouths.
Verified statements from various Duggars on their own show, interviews and books clarifies their values which can be placed side by side with the movement.
The stuff on the Internet may or may not be true, but here is a thought, those ex-quiverfull bloggers have been talking about Josh’s molesting for years. Date stamps as long ago as 2006. Most accounts aren’t vitriolic, emotive accounts. Many are very matter of fact telling of the facts. No one believed them, lots of hellfire and brimstone responces from offended Duggar fans/supporters complete with bible quotes, and yet here we are.
One has to consider though the ideology these girls have been subjected to: they have been taught that they will go to hell and lose their soul and their relationship to God if they do not forgive or if they continue to feel anger. They explicitly do not have any right to feel what they really feel and be supported.
Doesn’t all of Christianity teach “to err is human, to forgive is divine” (that might be Isaac Newton actually) But forgiveness has always been the path to God.
You can think that’s BS but it’s still a Christian belief embraced by far more than the Duggars and their ilk
Voice of reason: you are missing the point. We are speculating on the nature of the girls’ feelings in the same way a person suffering from Stockholm syndrome feels.
It doesn’t mean it isn’t genuine, but it has to be put into context of their idealogy.
You can forgive without excusing or justifying what was done to you. You can forgive without minimizing the damage done to you. Forgiveness is for YOUR sake, not the perpetrators. I was almost raped and while I forgave him it wasn’t for HIS sake, it was for mine. I don’t sit here and excuse what he did at all or say it was a mistake.
N2, I’m very sorry for what happened to you. My point is only this: we don’t know what these girls are thinking. It’s their story to tell.
And a lot of commenters here are instead making their own assumptions about how they really feel. Even the title of this post has forgiven in quotation marks.
Forgiveness is certainly possible. But given their upbringing and the way females are treated in that lifestyle and religion, I think it’s fair to question it (but not assume).
Thank you for pointing out the double standard in how we are judging these situations. Both of them were messed up, and Dunham was actually older and then wrote about it like she thought it was funny! Her sister was respected for saying it was no big deal. But these poor stupid girls are “in denial,” “ignorant,” etc. Maybe so, but then so is Dunham’s sister.
As it’s already been pointed out by others : Lena Dunham was younger by far, not older than Josh when she touched her sister, and what she did is no excuse for what Josh did. And stop trying to make it seem normal, please!
I think you are right that they shouldn’t be denied agency in this and should be taken at their word as to how they feel about what happened.
The problem with this interview and their statements isn’t that they feel forgiveness but that their forgiveness is being used to excuse Josh’s reprehensible behavior as “no big deal/no harm no foul.” Whether the victims have forgiven or not, he did something terrible, is potentially still dangerous, should suffer the consequences of his actions, and should be evaluated as to whether he is a safe member of society.
This is true, it’s problematic to use it to excuse behavior. But part of that may be in reaction to these reports. I think the reaction was so strong, they are on the defensive. Maybe they aren’t trying to excuse it entirely but they’re trying to dial it down from the “josh the rapist” story. So now it sounds like they’re excusing it instead of saying “there are levels of predatory behavior, and this wasn’t what people were saying”
Plus I think it’s natural for them to try to protect him. They can still love their brother and be trying to shield him by saying these things. Not that it’s great but it’s not a great conspiracy cooked up by Fox News and Jim bob
I hope somewhere inside themselves, even if it’s place that’s buried deep, they don’t believe the lie. I hope against all hope that there’s a part of these girls that knows it’s not their fault. I have to hold on to that hope, because without it this is just too hard to stomach. The discussions on the earlier InTouch post really have me thinking, but the thoughts are not happy ones. I find it so horrifying that these girls were betrayed by their brother–the one they say is supposed to protect you– then forced to defend him to the world. That is absolutely unacceptable. They are a walking incarnation of a victim’s worst nightmare– abused, shamed into believing they are at fault and impure for their entire lives, and now forced to defend their abuser in an extremely public way. NO ONE should have to go through that. No one. I’m so sorry, Jessa and Jill. My heart is with you both. Someone save all the women of this cult.
But it’s not just the “cult.” This happens in families across the country, religious and not. Given that about 1in 4 girls is molested and 1 in 6 boys is, most by people close to them, there are a lot of abuse victims who must behave as if their abusers did nothing wrong and are kind and loving family members. That’s the reality for most abuse victims. And the police usually aren’t contacted either. No one I know who was abused had family members who ever called the police on their abuser. I do not defend the Duggars. I point this out to say that their behavior is quite typical and that we need to educate the public more about abuse and what to do when it occurs.
Thank you for saying this. My concern is that the tendency to focus on something else (beliefs, his exact age, etc.) diverts focus from the problem. Molestation is a more prevalent problem that most of us probably realize. And it is usually a trusted person who is the perpetrator — not a stranger.
Just reading the very personal accounts on these threads illustrates that point.
As a high school teacher, I have known of many kids who were abused, often by siblings. No cops were called, no families dragged their kids through the court system.
Labeling abuse as because of “Christian values” helps us believe that it can’t happen in our families. But from the stats that you quoted, it certainly can, and probably has happened. Education is what is needed, and therapy – not persecution because we don’t like their religion.
But the parents should have made certain that the abuse stopped as soon as they heard of it. I don’t get the denial of it. This happened to my sister and it went on for years, even though I repeatedly told the grown-ups what the older boy was doing.
My husband is a criminal defense lawyer who specializes in juvenile law. I can tell you that most parents do NOT turn their children in. They try to handle it thru therapy and counseling. Most parents do not want any criminal activity on their child’s record unless all other avenues have failed. It sounds to me that the parents took him to the police station to “scare him straight”. No parent I have ever seen has turned their child over to the police with the intention of having their child locked up. I’m sorry, I think what he did was horrendous but I think that they did what most parents would do under the circumstances. They had therapy for everyone in the family and they put safeguards in place. I realize that this family is unpopular due to their religious beliefs but the fact remains they were proactive. They did more than a lot of parents we’ve seen as clients. A lot of teenagers do stupid stupid things and most of them grow up to be fine adults. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that he has continued this behavior. It’s easy to criticize how other parents handle a situation but when it’s your child doing something wrong, I assure you that you won’t be running to the police station to turn them in. You will try other alternatives first.
Actually @Jib…if you were a teacher and certain that particular students were being abused at home then YOU failed utterly in your duty to those kids. Teachers are mandatory reporters. So thank you for not only trying to excuse a child molester here by spewing enabling crap about Josh Duggar but also for allowing the ongoing victimization of children YOU were supposed to help protect.
Very interesting posts, N2, Jib and Hardy.
Tentacle Kitten: I think Jib was saying that certain high school students HAD been abused, years earlier as (young) children — i.e. Jib found out about the alleged abuse after the statute of limitations had run out.
I’m cynical, YES, and I am having a difficult time believing that they had legit counseling. But maybe I am wrong.
“They also talked about the journey from the pain to the forgiveness”
This is diametrically opposed to the parents’ talking points about how the girls were not aware, didn’t know it happened because they were asleep, and were not drastically impacted by the events.
This. The parents want to have it both ways. For them, it was simulataneously no big deal but if if you crazy people think it was a big deal, then don’t worry, folks, they’ve dealt with it in “professional” way. Riiiight. This family will continue to abuse their female children but their days of TLC grifting are coming to a close. The public overlooked the Duck Dynasty fiasco bc we really don’t mind implied violence against women and children, but Josh Duggar took it to the next level and that’s not so easy to hide. They can’t recover from this. TLC is delaying the inevitable and making themselves look worse. I’m going to drop that channel from my cable programming.
i’m gonna go all birther on this counseling and ask for receipts
None of this excuses their parents behaviour in this situation. They put their religious beliefs before the law.
Honestly, I’d expect the vast majority of parents would attempt to handle this privately before going to the police. Who wouldn’t try private therapy and constant monitoring before getting their kid wrapped up in a juvenile court system that causes more damage than it fixes? I’m a lawyer and I’ve never seen a juvenile come out of the system less screwed up than they went in.
The other side of that, however, is that subsequent to the way in which they dealt with this, they VERY PUBLICLY ministered about how everyone should behave in regard to sexuality. So there is an incredible dichotomy there.
It wasn’t just the parents putting their religious beliefs before the law, it’s also because Josh, Jill & Jessa are all their kids. I find it hard to believe they did not find this the least bit disturbing despite the church they belong to. Neither the church or the parents are responsible for Josh molesting his sisters. He and he alone is responsible. We are not talking about a group of 5 6 or 7 year olds experimenting. This was a 14 year old. He knew better.
At 14, he was under their charge. So they had a responsibility to deal with it.
What Kiddo said. And I think we can all agree that their parental responsibility should have included reporting their son to the proper authorities, not finding a cop who was into child porn to help them sweep it under the rug.
They were complicit in that sense. They enabled Josh to get away with abusing his sisters and absolved him of true accountability.
Why not? Those religious beliefs teach that women aren’t as important as men. So they protected their blessed ‘heir’ at the expense at their throw away daughters ‘the other ones’.
According to their own Quiverfull manual on how to deal with molestation, your soul is at risk if you don’t forgive the molester.
Afterall, you brought it upon yourself, you were a temptress.
And be grateful you were molested because IT BROUGHT YOU CLOSER TO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will take my chances with my soul by not forgiving Josh and his parents. Despicable, lying hypocrites all of them.
But if I am going to hell, then I am sure I will recognize some faces down there with me. ESPECIALLY THEIRS.
It’s about money, not forgiveness. They are downplaying it because they don’t want their nice and lucrative gravy train to grind to a halt. They don’t want to actually have to “work” for a living.
Exactly. The girls are the last piece of the sinking ship that TLC thinks it can salvage. And even though I do feel for the girls, I think the entire family needs to disappear from the public platform to sort out their many issues.
Though they would probably just start some type of talk show on religious based television networks or travel the circuit as ‘motivational speakers’.
But they won’t sort anything out, it will all be swept away again, like it was years ago.
the only chance any of those children have is to keep the media on them until someone, anyone, steps in to help them.
Of course they’ll forgive Josh. They’ve been threatened with burning for all eternity in a pit of flames. For those who believe, it’s real enough.
You tell your tormenters what they want to hear.
God, the fact that damn family made their daughters, the very victims, stand in the forefront to fight their sick ass brother’s battle speaks volumes, huh?? Sacrificial lambs to the slaughter for the almighty dollar.
Yup
There was a fascinating diary on Daily Kos a few weeks ago written by someone who had been the victim of sexual abuse at her step father’s hand. The story was a media frenzy in her town and state. One of the things she said about the experience was that everyone got to talk and have a public opinion – except her, the victim.
It is quite possible that these young women chose to do the interview because they wanted their own voices heard (and to keep the gravy train rolling).
Just like the cousin, whom inappropriately touched me as a child, I forgave him for MY peace of mind. I wasn’t encouraged (forced) to like the Duggar girls were.
Forgiven? Maybe. Forgotten? Doubtful.
On that special they aired the mother was telling a story about how when she was 15 she would mow the lawn in a bikini and men would stare and now she understands it is wrong to stir passions in someone that you can’t relieve them from (I’m paraphrasing) so you know the girls are being blamed. So she was blaming herself for getting gawked at when she was 15. So sick.
I’m sad for this girls. They were molested by their pedo brother, blamed by their parents, brainwashed to feel guilty and programmed to defend their abuser.
The duggars are awful parents, they only care about money and sold the girls out to save face and to defend their child molester son. I hope they go to jail
Where is josh in all this? Here in my country we would say “cabron descojonado no tiene huevos para dar la cara”. Which roughly translates as: This young gentleman should come out and speak for himself.
Gold. You should get all the translation awards!
Jajajaja ¿Eres de México? Porque exactamente eso diríamos 😛
Go read on the other Jill and Jesss thread what I posted a day ago (one of the last posts on the thread) that Jill posted on her facebook back in February blasting liberal Christians and saying her fans needed to hear it even if it was tough on them. God is not a kind god. You are being subjected to eternal damnation for your sins unless you live absolutely according to scripture, and that includes fornicating, y’all. So anyone having sex outside of marriage or before you got married are going to hell. She says those Christians trying to change God into a loving God accepting of all of these things is a fabrication. I posted her whole rant.
So you’re going to hell, but people are being mean about their parents for allowing five kids to be molested and about poor Joshie and their gravy train.
Interesting that the two girls who are married are the ones willingly (or allowed?) to speak out during this scandal. We know for a fact, two other girls in this family are victims. Can we assume they are unwilling to speak? Or could they be unable to speak about their experience because Jim Boob and Michelle deem it uncouth for unmarried women to talk about their vaginas?
Perhaps because Jessa and Jill now have had real sexual experiences, they can understand the difference between consensual sex versus Josh’s one-sided molestation. In light of that newfound understanding they are able to process, to stop blaming themselves, and to forgive…
I feel for the girls who are staying silent. It’s undoubtably extremely traumatizing to have your only sexual memory or experience be an abuse situation involving your older brother, a man who went on to be placed on a conservative family values pedestal. I wonder if Jessa and Jill’s marriages have soften their memories, or given them closure on the past and opened their mind to forgiveness. With the complete lack of sexual education these Duggar kids get, the younger sisters who were molested may very well believe they were raped. They just don’t have the frame of reference, and tragically they probably blame themselves.
I mentioned this yeterday as well. It worries me that the 2 unmarried victims are still silent. I worry that the fact that they have been touched makes them unclean or shameful within their faith. And now that this is public will it make it difficult for them to find husbands. That is their ultimate goal to marry and have children, and now that might be difficult within their faith.
It’s quite possible that the other victims are still underage, and it would be pretty inappropriate to have them on television talking about this. Adults discussing their experience and feelings about it is a lot different than putting children on display.
The girl who was five in 2003 is still a minor.There were only five girls in the family in 2003 and reports say the oldest girl was not one of HIS victims.
Are we sure all four were the girls, though? The boy twins are just one year younger than that sister.
Jinger is 21. Joy-Anna is 17. Since the eldest daughter Jana 25, was not victimized those two are th other victims.
The Duggars next daughter is Johanna, age 9. She was born in 2005 after these molestations occurred.
Its interesting that Jill and Jessa were the ones that Jim Bob chose to do this…guess he doesn’t want to remind potential suitors of the other ones that they are victims too.
(yes I realize how sick that statement is, but its true).
Those are real tears, I feel so bad that not only did they have to go through this in the first place, but that its being re-hashed all over the airwaves now. THANKS JIM BOB.
These poor girls. They’re the victims, and yet THEY have to be outed and forced to defend their scumbag brother in public? Faux News can please go bugger itself with a rusty chainsaw.
And while I can understand victims being in denial and rationalising away or minimising what was done to them (because lord knows, some of us do not like the idea of being victims or having to confront the ugly truth of agency being taken from us this way – it’s a horrible thought), these young women have been thrown under the bus in an attempt to rehabilitate the public image of a child molester. Whatever they told themselves to deal with the situation, they didn’t even get to retain the privacy to do that in.
Jessa and Jill have become the stars of that family. They love the fame. They get magazine covers for the weddings, babies, pregnancies, have tons of fans, love the money, live in nice homes, are .on twitter and facebook They are doing this interview because they are terrified their gravy train and huge fame are going away.
Yep.
whatever their motives, they’re scumbag Josh’s victims and defending him……and looking at that family and that cult, I doubt it’s an informed decision made of their own volition. They’re not to blame, but I feel bad for them.
The family still holds sway over their public images, and publicly they have to ‘forgive’ their abuser so that horrible reality show can go on and Breeder 1 and 2 can keep being pathetic excuses for parents and being paid for it.
TMZ had a post yesterday explaining how Josh’s file was released. Kelly and the Duggars say the data was released deliberately — and illegally. They’re making a big production over invasion of privacy.
But the police chief who fulfilled the FOIA request says the file was never sealed to begin with, because Josh was an adult when the file was started. The crimes were committed when he was a minor, but because Ma and Pa Duggar sat on their hands, the file was opened after Josh became an adult. An adult cannot demand privacy. These are now public records.
So the file was never sealed, and the FOIA request was filled legally.
It was Kelly and the Duggars who released the girls’ identities. Not the mainstream media, not any fire-breathing liberals, and not InTouch.
They have only themselves to blame for names being “leaked.” The police and the media have conducted themselves according to the law.
I still want those clowns to sue InTouch. Depositions will be worth its weight in gold.
There were 5 daughters at the time and it was already printed that they oldest wasn’t touched.
Isn’t the media kind of just giving themselves head pats at this point saying they didn’t out the girls.
It was like playing hangmen and getting all the letters but 1.
Yep. Just look at the Police Report; “https://dailynewsinternational.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/11-9ddam9j.jpg’
“The alleged victims XXXXXX who live with their parents Michelle and Jim Bob”
There were only 5 Duggar girls alive then so it wasn’t that hard to figure out who they were. Particularly after one of them asked to have the reports destroyed on the basis that she’s a minor. Boom.
The police should have redacted the first names of the victim’s parents IMO. That would’ve protected the girls’ privacy better. Far be it from me to defend the parents but they were not the ones that outed the girls. The parents confirmed what the police report made obvious.
The whole thing is sickening. My heart breaks for them. Victimized by their brother. Victimized by their negligent/probably-in-denial parents. Victimized by a poorly redacted police report iMO. Sick and sad situation all around.
It would not have mattered. Their interviews all list who lives with the victims in the family home. Even if all of the family members’ names and relationships were blacked out, it would not be that difficult to figure out that they were the Duggar girls. There cannot be that many families with 15+ kids in their neck of Arkansas.
I think some of the tears are because if they don’t do this right , there might be no further shows. And, yes, I know that sounds harsh.
Notice in the first excerpt how Megyn mentions the girls last, and mentions ‘family’ twice before adding ‘and what happened to them’.
It is what they went through as a family. That the family’s business is out there…
Why can she not simply say ‘what they (the girls – the victims!!!) went through.’
Family members of victims of child abuse also go through their own pain. It is not the same as the victim’s pain but trust me family members also deal with pain too.
I tend to not believe they received legitimate, professional therapy because counsellors, psychologists, social workers, etc are required by law to report child abuse.
My sisters were also coerced into ‘forgiving’ our brother, their abuser. That ‘forgiveness’ has not helped my sisters feel any better, though. I’m not sure it makes our niece any less vulnerable to her fathers’ proclivities, either.
Making young children FORGIVE their abuser is wrong. Making young children believe that FORGIVING THEIR ABUSER is their only path to feeling better themselves is also wrong.
This whole thing is just WRONG.
I’m so sorry for what you and your family has gone through! I can’t imagine what it’s like. Forgiveness can feel very good for someone who’s been wronged – if it’s fully voluntary and only when and if the victim feels ready. Otherwise it’s just a lie and more trauma. That’s what these groups don’t get, and aren’t interested in getting either. It’s all about protecting male interests and a pretty exterior.
I would bet all my money they sought out a counselor who would share their religious beliefs, at least in so much as it is possible, to support whatever crazy crap their cult wanted to emphasize.
I have sympathy for everyone but the parents. Knowing what they knew and still choosing to put their family on TV and make them “celebrities” was a very, very bad choice. They shilled their children out for profit – now those children are ending up with heartache and humiliation on an international level. Was it worth the money and fame? I hope so. Since I’m not the perpetrator, the victim, God or an investigator, so I can’t fully judge what happened. Was it him feeling more guilty than necessary due to the environment and religious convictions with which he was being raised? Or was it worse? But whatever the case, none of these children had a choice about whether their lives were going to broadcast for everyone to see. It’s a parent’s job to provide for their children, not to pimp their kids out so it’s the other way around.
I wonder if they *did* actually all see a licensed counselor — only just since the scandal broke? Then they can sit in public and claim that with these specific words, yet escape any obligation to have any abuse/molestation reported since it is not recent?
I just keep wondering… with all of this coverage… Where did the cycle start? Where did Josh learn to do what he did? It doesn’t take away from his culpability, but am I not reading close enough? I don’t see that question asked…
sick sick sick family
I’m confused (and repulsed and disgusted). The father keeps stressing how the girls were sleeping and didn’t know what was happening (please!) but they also got counseling. If they truly were asleep and didn’t know anything had happened, when did they find out and require counseling? They just keep contradicting themselves.
Now I will go and cleanse this horror by reading a Kardashian post….. 17 year old getting reality show with her 25 year old rapper “boyfriend”. ::smacks head on desk::
A post on The Wrap suggests TLC should have a new show, “5 Molested and Counting.”
But where’s the evidence fox/their parents forced them to do or reveal anything?
It’s possible that once the police report was released, even without their names, they knew people could figure it out with some basic arithmetic. Cats out of the bag. So they said, instead of all these made up narratives floating around, I’m just going to tell my side.
Can I just ask that we please stop referring to these two adult women as “girls!” They are not girls. They may have been girls when their jerk of a brother asserted power over them by sexually assaulting them but they are not girls now. They are women with all the rights and autonomy that comes with adulthood. Calling them “girls” perpetuates their parents’s beliefs that they are incapable of making their own decisions or choosing their own paths and need men to guide them. It makes them lesser than they are.
And I want to pinch Megyn Kelly for using that term on her misogynistic network
One of the things that made me want to pull my hair out about this interview, was how they went on and on about how Josh came and confessed himself. Like that makes it better, or good.
Yeah, give Josh a high five. In the face. With a chair.
I really don’t believe Josh came and told them this. They keep saying this as to show what a good boy he is, in his heart. Much more likely it was one of the girls, or the babysitter.
To me the notion Josh confessed makes the whole situation worse and the parents more negligent. It suggests he knew he had a compulsion and didn’t want to repeat the behavior.. But the parents did nothing. If it’s even true that that Josh confessed three times (fair point @Alex) that makes his parents even bigger failures.
It’s also scary because it makes it clear this wasn’t just some “mistake” but rather a real issue that he probably deals with to this day. I fear for his children.
If he’s still abusing, take all my chairs. I’ll sit on the floor and smile.
What the situation COULD be? I have no doubts whatsoever that this pile of shit is molesting his own daughter.
These girls haven’t even begun to process what happened to them. They are able to function day-to-day, but their psyches are still awash with pain. Been there, done that, still struggling with it.
These women are going to reproduce, yes? Here’s what bothers me about that (among many other reasons). Unless they are somehow able to receive proper therapy, from a therapist who is actually qualified and who will not blame them for what happened to them, then they will remain unable to discern safe situations for young children in their care. Victims of sexual abuse aren’t automatically champions for the next young generation’s safety from such. My mother was sexually abused as a child, and she willingly left me alone with men she knew fully well weren’t trustworthy.
So I do have sympathy for what they’ve gone through. I even have empathy for it. But they seem so full of denial about their suffering – understandably, given their upbringing and the people they surround themselves with – that I don’t view them as able to keep other young children safe from the same abuse that they suffered.
This situation is rife with pain and sickness.
Deadline Hollywood Daily is reporting, with regard to locking the girls in their bedroom, Jill says: As a mom, I hope that I can set up the same safeguards in my family that [her parents] did.
It sounds like she’s already expecting a molester among her own children.
Shouldn’t she? Daddy dearest says it’s normal, after all.
If that report is accurate, it tells a lot about the mindset that will involve another generation.
It’s true when others posted you pretend you’re asleep so you think it isn’t happening; when you’re told that your family will be killed if you tell; it gets found out and you the victim are blamed for letting it happen even though you’re a young child… Then being forced to accept apologies and forgive all who knew and covered it up but most of all the sick f*** who has scarred you for life. It’s so sad how common it is and no one talks about it because it really does bring shame. I know I am when people bring it up and I change the topic right away. I hope these girls will be able to function normally in their relationships because this shit will not go away anytime soon.
I feel sorry for them and for the other kids in this family. And you heard it here first- I bet you Josh- with the help of his enablers- is going to spin his side of the story in such a way where they chalk up his child molestation as a natural result of ‘growing up a teenage boy our sinful/sexually immodest/immoral/ culture’, or some other such crap. There’s no way these people are not going to use a man’s sex crimes against girls as a way to push their backward “You see? This is exactly why women and girls need to be kept super-chaste and we need to bring back repressive ‘traditional values’!” agenda. I can already see it now.
yeah somewhere when it first came out they already blamed it on josh watching internet porn.
i wonder how on earth he ever had access to porn in their house?!
It bothers me that Megyn Kelly says they all went through “licensed therapist counseling.” That’s the first I’ve heard of that… did she look into that for proof to back up their, and subsequently her, claim? i do hope it is true, but as other people have said on this site, SHOW THE RECEIPTS and man it better be real clinical therapy, not random church camps and stuff.
it also bothers me that she mostly seems super sympathetic to their cause but occasionally throws in a semi-‘hardball’/ real question in, it seems almost to throw people off the scent that they’re not truly digging into all of these peoples’ claims here. i’d like for some non-Fox journalists to be able to talk to the parents. They could be perfectly respectful and polite in dealing with them without playing to their “victimhood” and the “agenda” against them.