Ever since then-Bruce Jenner came out as transgender with Diane Sawyer, some people have been picking at her over basically anything they can find. While I think Bruce lived a complicated life and was, to some people, a bad person, a bad husband and a bad father, I also think those are separate issues from Caitlyn’s journey and how people react to it. As soon as the ESPY producers announced that Caitlyn would be receiving this year’s Arthur Ashe Courage Award, “haters” began spreading the misinformation that ESPN had decided to honor Caitlyn instead of a veteran and double amputee named Gregory D. Gadson. First of all, the ESPY producers never had a “second place” or another pick for the courage award – Caitlyn was their first and only choice.
That didn’t stop people from spreading the transphobic meme, a side-by-side photo comparison of then-Bruce Jenner versus Gadson. The message on the Instagram/Facebook/Twitter meme usually read something like “One man traded 2 legs for the freedom of the other to trade 2 balls for 2 boobs. Guess which man made the cover of Vanity Fair, was praised for his courage by President Obama and is to be honored with the ‘Arthur Ashe Courage Award’ by ESPN?” Because tolerance and acceptance, right? Because it’s a competition? Because the general public can’t recognize both human beings for their courage? Anyway, the hateful meme grew and grew, but there was a hope that most reasonable people would just ignore it. Except Peter Berg – director of films like Lone Survivor and Battleship – posted the image with the comment “yep” during the ESPYs.
Update: Berg removed the original Instagram, so here’s a screencap:
The backlash against Berg was surprisingly swift. So swift that within hours, he posted another IG, with this message:
“I have the utmost respect for Caitlyn Jenner and I am a strong supporter of equality and the rights of trans people everywhere. I also believe that we don’t give enough attention to our courageous returning war veterans, many of whom have sacrificed their bodies and mental health for our country and our principals- principals that include the freedom to live the life you want to live without persecution or abuse.”
That’s just the thing though – it’s not an either/or proposition, nor do we live in a society where “courage” is a zero-sum game. Caitlyn Jenner is courageous. Soldiers and veterans are courageous. We can spend a moment recognizing one person’s courage and it doesn’t negate another person’s courage. Berg was an a—hole for posting that meme – and he still has it up on his Instagram, by the way – and he’s an even bigger a—hole for assuming that people can only respect the courage of one person at a time.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Peter is a douche. It amazes me that a lot of people don’t realize it isn’t an either/or type of thing. There are different ways to express courage and different forms of courage, it is not that hard to understand.
Yeah, that meme was a douche move.
I don’t mind Jenner getting the award but Bruce Jenner didn’t have the best values in a lot of ways and it’s annoying to see Caitlyn be glorified as if she was never married to a Kardashian and lived that shallow life.
Maybe Caitylyn is a much better human being than Bruce was but she can’t deny her history.
The Kardashians aren’t role models and their trashiness isn’t a lifestyle that we need to be focusing on. And Bruce was just as much of a Kartrashian as the rest of the family.
Caitlyn is benefiting from the public being ready to be accepting but that doesn’t mean that her values and sensibility are so great. You can be transgender and not necessarily be a wonderful person.
It’s an incredible douche move and not very helpfull towards veterans. If he really wants to help veterans maybe this kind of symbolic gesture isn’t what they need. I love your military, because most American soldiers I have met were like this: http://www.upworthy.com/a-boy-makes-anti-muslim-comments-in-front-of-an-american-soldier-the-soldiers-reply-priceless?g=2&c=ufb1
And I find it so weird that your veterans are respected like crazy in the US, but mostly in symbolic ways. If Peter Berg really wants to do something for veterans he should help get people elected who actually want to better things for veterans and are willing to vote that way and start to shame politicians who claim they respect veterans, but are not willing to show this by voting for policies that help veterans.
Edited to add that I also agree with what most people here are saying about the equal rights of somebody else not taking away from your rights, which is why this is such a douche move in the first place. Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the whole ‘apology’.
“You’re not being oppressed when another group gains the rights you’ve always had.”
This, Shambles. And I would add that you ARE being oppressed when someone assumes & insists that you can’t hold more than one thought in your head, more than one emotion in your heart.
That is the other good fight. Intelligent, empathetic human beings can keep up with many thought trains running – on or off schedule, via different tracks and terminals – at the same time.
There is room enough for all, and we must never agree to limit & define ourselves by others’ piteously low estimation of the capacities of our thoughts or the boundless reaches of our appreciation and gratitude.
My conservative friends lit up facebook with similar stuff when Caitlyn came out with her transformation. It was ridiculous. It’s like the same bullcrap women are taught to buy into. “Someone else’s accomplishments take away from yours. Bring them down!”
Just like beauty, courage isn’t a contest where only one person (or group) can be considered “worthy” of the label and everyone else can go suck it. There are different forms of courage, just like there are different forms of beauty. Tearing one form down doesn’t build another up.
Beautifully stated, Wren. Love that you drew parallels to the fact that women are often made to feel like they have to be in competition with each other. Great comment, and I totally agree.
Exactly Wren. This kind of thinking is very deeply rooted in people’s minds. It’s ever-present not only with serious issues like this one, but even when very trivial topics are discussed. We’re on a gossip site and what it takes to see it is to click on a thread about Angelina Jolie and see tons of people tearing down Jennifer Aniston or a thread about Shailene Woodley too see all the hate towards Jennifer Lawrence – and vice versa. Because one cannot possibly be praised and liked without the other being demeaned. It just doesn’t make sense to me at all.
Hear, hear!
Yes, exactly, Wren. It is infuriating to see the false dichotomy that people like Mr. Berg push, and discouraging to see the other people who quickly latch onto – and redistribute it – as a comforting, self-imposed sort of communal Kool-Aid bonding.
This reminds me of what you hear people say in the face of standing before the ocean: some say its great expanse makes them feel small and insignificant; others say it makes them feel that they – and the world – are limitless. It’s important we can always examine why that may be – as well as the range of possibilities in between.
It’s worth noting some very liberal friends took the same attitude as Berg. Political association doesn’t define personality. Some people are just rude jerks. That the world can’t think about more than 1 thing at a time. And choosing to voice an opinion about 1 doesn’t mean you’re forgotten or devalue the others.
Those causes are still important. I can’t stand that all or nothing argument.
1 question. Did the soldier that lost his legs want this association? Or is that just a photo that was used? Because if he didn’t agree with this I bet he’s horrified!
Apart from the fact that he can’t spell “principles”.
Yup
Hope the high school principal who allowed him to graduate has more principles now – or that the principles of spelling are a principal focus, at the very least.
I hardly ever comment, but yeah that “principals” gaffe had me reaching for the keyboard. I’m glad that there was a backlash against Berg. I wonder how Gadson feels about all this.
I wonder at the idea that Caitlyn is brave. I don’t think she is brave. I think she is in a position of privilege and has embraced her inner being with gusto. All power to her, but brave? I think not. The trans person down the street living with an adam’s apple and no manicures or made to measure clothing is brave. That person still looks like a man who dresses in women’s clothing and has all the abuse associated with that. Bruce Jenner decided to live in the spotlight, decided to have children, decided to deceive his wife or wives and then decided that he would do what he always needed to do. Caitlyn is a lucky lady but brave? No. This woman is not born again pure as the driven snow and must own her cowardly decisions from before transition.
Is he really wrong? I don’t know if a white male olympic medalist doing a half gender assignment is really courageous. Is it Transphobic to question if we are honoring jenner because he is famous ? There are so many people who didn’t marry 3 women, have 6 children and then at 60 something decide to change. Is it courageous that late at life when you have done and have everything?
Sorry. I know people will be pissed but that is just my opinion
Yes, Caitlyn is extremely courageous!
+2
+1
I think it is all in the context of what is being discussed.. He was a white male Olympic medalist; in a profession that still to this day has a hard time accepting an image of a male as being anything other than macho. Being Gay in sports is still not fully accepted. Everyone has their own measure of what they consider courageous. And someone finding Caitlyn’s journey courageous shouldn’t take away from any other group or individual.
I for one have mixed feeling on this; but I don’t understand the deep hate some people have about it. Not sure if it is about his/her extended family or something else. And the something else is what is scary and disconcerting.
The correct pronoun is not “his” or “his/her”. In Caitlyn’s case, it is ‘her”. It’s not that difficult to be respectful of another human being.
@Pedro45
I was NOT being disrespectful of Caitlyn or any human being. and my saying HIS/HER is in reference to the comment taking about Bruce Jenner as an Olympic Medalist..and it is Bruce Jenner that was the Medal winner and that Bruce Jenner has 6 children. Bruce is still a part of the history of this world. And yes Caitlyn is living her journey forward.. but Bruce Jenner did exist at some point and the evidence of his existences doesn’t just get erased because Caitlyn is standing here. Caitlyn was invited to the ESPYs because she was once Bruce.. And they made sure to show video of Bruce in the piece.
Don’t be so quick to assume something and jump to defend what didn’t need defending.
@Lisa2,
Nope. You wrote his/her family. It is her family now. And Denisemuch above used “his”, so it wasn’t just you.
But yes, I will continue to be quick defending pronouns because it matters.
From the GLAAD media guide, once again:
“DO avoid male pronouns and Caitlyn’s prior name, even when referring to events in her past. For example, “Prior to her transition, Caitlyn Jenner won the gold medal in the men’s decathlon at the Summer Olympics held in Montreal in 1976.”
@Pedro45 @Lisa@ Is it really necessary to bash a respectful poster because they used a pronoun construction that’s not sanctified by GLAAD? The content of the post of was not in any way disrespectful to Caitlyn.
I do screw up sometimes when talking about my daughter’s non-binary gendered friends, especially the one I’ve known since they were four. I also once misgendered her trans boy friend. Slip-ups happen; you just have to do your best, and I think others will understand. And of course GLAAD doesn’t necessarily have to police everyone’s speech, I was just including the detail if anyone was interested. Strangely, I am friends with one trans man and one trans woman, and I haven’t misgendered them once (and I knew them both before their transition). I just feel terrible when I accidentally misgender someone, like one of my daughter’s friends. That non-binary “they” is a big difficulty for me.
GLAAD doesn’t get to dictate the proper use of pronouns. The proper use is what the person him- or herself prefers and what is historically accurate. Bruce Jenner won the Olympic decathlon. He fathered six children. Bruce told Diane Sawyer, prior to the official reveal but when he was obviously transitioning, that he wanted people to use male pronouns at that time. Those facts don’t change because Bruce transitioned to Caitlyn. It is disrespectful to refer to Caitlyn now using male pronouns, but it is not disrespectful to talk about Bruce Jenner and what he did prior to the transition.
I think there’s different categories: those who are just transphobic anyway, and then those who aren’t, but don’t like the Jenner/Kardashian circus, or the way this award was bought for a tv show.
Hmm, I don’t know. I mean yes, I totally agree with you that the person’s preference trumps all rules of thumb, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, but I thought that since this media guide was specifically written about Caitlyn Jenner, that this is what she wanted. I suppose it could be that she wasn’t consulted; I never thought about that, and if that’s true, I’m pissed. Let her choose her own rules if that’s the case! I just thought that this is what she wants. I have noticed, however, that she still wants her kids to call her Dad and refers to herself as their father. Claire is also right: there’s more than one reason for folks not wanting to be on Team Cait.
db
If you can’t bash all the little errors posters make while typing with their thumbs and not clarifying every, single, little, detail than what can you bash?
I know i’ve made that mistake. Sometimes when I re-read for edits I miss a few and just know people will understand what I meant.
I think it’s courageous, what Jenner did, but I’m not convinced it’s ESPN award-worthy either. I wonder if I’d feel differently if there wasn’t so much Kardashian-fame-whoring attached to the story. They taint everything, and a man married into this family for as long as he was has surely learned a lot about self-promotion — and that’s what makes me side-eye the whole transformation every time it’s pushed on us.
I have to agree with you. It’s not I think that Caitlyn Jenner transition to be a woman is the part of my disgust, I think it is courageous of her. What disgust is she is using so much media attention to herself is sickening. I am not tearing her down, but I for one is just fed up with her, kris, kim and the Kardashians-Jenner klan. They are everywhere and I am sick of it. When will they go way, only God knows, when that stupid realitynshow is over.
I think it was appropriate because at one time, Jenner was considered “the greatest athlete in the world” (as are all decathlon gold medalists). We knew Caitlyn for that before she was even with Kris. She is still very much a sports figure.
Not to say there weren’t other good candidates: Michael Sam, for instance. But he’ll get another chance some other year hopefully. And of course the athletes with disabilities too. But I don’t have a problem with Caitlyn getting the Espy.
I think part of what people need to realize is that awards aren’t just about the people the awards are given to, they’re also for everyone else. Honouring Jenner is also about honouring and supporting other trans people too, just as honouring the vet Is about honouring all vets. It’s a way of saying thank you for the sacrifice and the courage that you both (and everyone like you) shows.
And there is sacrifice and courage involved in being who you are, especially when who you are is constantly subject to prejudice and discrimination. Yes, Jenner has privilege, but he also experienced decades of oppression and discrimination, which he is still experiencing now as evidenced by Berg. I thought this was the point of intersectionality – that one person can be simultaneously privileged and oppressed.
I also disagree with people who claim Caitlyn isn’t doing enough for the trans community. Give her time, dammit! Think of all the stress (positive and negative) that she’s been under for the last year (and the decades before that). Let her catch her breath.
BTW, I just found out that Michael Sam has won the award already. Shows what I know about the Espys.
Yes that is my problem too. Because to be honest, if Caitlyn’s transformation turned out to be some sort of publicity stunt by the Kardashian clan, I wouldn’t be 100% surprised. For that reason, I wish they had waited a year to see what Caitlyn will have accomplished for this award. Unfortunately, the Kardashian’s publicity crap which Caitlyn participated in for many years just overshadows everything. I know Caitlyn’s transformation would be a very outrageous publicity stunt, and she seems sincere, its just with that family anything seems possible and only time will tell.
I wish they had waited until next year at least before giving her this award. It seemed like the announcement of this award was timed so quickly after she publicly transitioned. It made me cynically feel like it was pre-arranged by her people for publicity.
I agree. It’s hard to use the same word, “courageous” for so many different things. I mean, the soldier who lost his limbs was not looking out for his own self-interest. He sacrificed himself for others. Bruce/Caitlyn has pretty much just always looked out for himself and now herself. I have a hard time reconciling the two.
I think people throw around the words “hero”, “brave” and “courage” too arbitrarily.
I might use the word “admirable”, as it undoubtedly was a difficult decision to move forward with. But seriously, Caitlyn is looking out for Caitlin. That’s not courageous.
Well said.
Than you. I agree with you, it is just sad that she is making attention on herself.
I agree with you, Delta Juliet. Last year’s Arthur Ashe Courage Award went to Michael Sam, the first openly gay NFL player. He was an active player, so coming out had to be scary as hell. I thought he was a great choice. But Jenner … it seems like it’s all about profit with her: How can I make money from this? You can argue that she’s broadening awareness of transgender issues, but in reality, she’s broadening her bank account.
Oh! I didn’t know that! Shows how much I follow the ESPYs. I was thinking he would be a good choice 😀
DeltaJuliet, I agree with you 100%. I also feel like those words are applied to everyone and anyone now. They use to hold powerful meaning for military, firefighters, ect. I find other people inspiring and admirable for making difficult choices in their lives. But I guess I’ve always related courage and bravery in the saving and dedication to risking their lives for others. Maybe I am old school because I read to many historical books.
This, thank you Delta Juliet. And I’m actually tired of hearing about Caitlyn.
I agree with all this as well……just happy to know that I’m not the only one thinking this about her, nor that I’m horrible for thinking it.
Kiki04 and all the above–Thanks for letting me know I am not the only one who feels like you do. I guess if it wasn’t for all the fame and money this family loves so much, I wouldn’t side eye the whole event. But I imagine we are in the minority. Oh well…. I certainly won’t be watching her new show and have never watched the whole disgusting Trashashian show. Wish they would all just go away!!
I don’t know why anyone who disagrees with the choice for this award is automatically labelled as a hater or transphobic. You say that it’s a false dichotomy and liking one doesn’t mean hating another, but ESPN made a choice in whom they wanted to honor and my disagreeing with their choice doesn’t mean I hate Caitlyn or what the award to her stands for. I cannot imagine the pain of living in a body that doesn’t feel like yours, but when I think of courage, I think of Lauren Hill. She fulfilled her dream of being a college basketball player while battling a rare cancerous brain tumor and then spent the rest of her too-short life raising money for research that she knew couldn’t save her. Yes, she got a different award, but I thought she epitomized this one, and this is the only year she could win it.
Nona and others do you not think coming out as transgender is courageous? Look at all the hate Caitlyn has received, rising above that to live authentically takes a helluva lot of courage.
I think the difference is that most of those people can make their transition somewhat privately, where as Caitlyn had the entire world watching and speculating. She became the public face of an issue that can still bring out some really horrible negativity from some people, and I think that’s difficult and brave.
It’s a different sort of courage than someone who is willing to put themselves in harms way for others, and to then fight to have a good life after so much was taken from them. But both are courageous nonetheless, and it shouldn’t have to be a competition.
It’s important to openly highlight and praise Caitlyn also. Not because of Caitlyn, but for what she stands for. The journey and transformation is what is getting the awards imo. So, others can see this and know it’s ok and accepted. Not because Bruce became Caitlyn. People need to stop focusing on that.
I happen to have a different opinion from you on it as I agree with Kaiser that it’s not a zero sum game. Besides, it’s the ESPYs, they generally choose a person from the sports world to honor, so it wouldn’t make sense in my mine to say this particular award should have gone to a veteran.
But when you, or the people who re-post this meme like Berg, continue to misgender Jenner, to refer to her as a man, to focus specifically on the gender reassignment surgery part of her transition, etc, it negates any point you have to make in my mind. There is a way to have this conversation that is respectful. The ladies on the Talk did it just the other day and I certainly wouldn’t normally turn to them as an example of how to do anything. Questioning whether Caitlyn was the best recipient for this award is not transphobic, but saying things about how “he” was only selected because of fame IS.
Unlike the Talk I don’t have lawyers and executives combing over the correct positioning of all of my pronouns. However, I was NOT being disrespectful of Ms. Jenner.
Caityln Jenner was accepting the award because Bruce Jenner won the Gold Medal. The man and the transgendered woman both belong in this conversation.
That’s fine, and I understand there is a learning curve here. But you used “he” in the current context of Jenner and I think it’s important to make a note of pronoun use. I also think the comment about “half gender reassignment” wasn’t necessary.
But most of all, the language and focus of the meme itself is highly transphobic (it seems to me it is intentionally so) regardless of the opinion it is trying to put forward.
I’m genuinely not trying to nitpick, but I think it’s important we are made aware of these errors when they are made so that we can be more mindful in the future. Because regardless of intention, it is disrespectful.
@ Lee1, stating facts isn’t transphobic. I also wasn’t apologizing to you. I was pointing out how unrealistic your comparison between my statements above and what you may have seen on a TV show.
I never assumed you were apologizing to me or to anyone. But that meme isn’t stating facts, it is intentionally using inflammatory language. And I personally found some of your language to be less than factual and offensive.
I also don’t think that it’s unrealistic to hope that people are capable of being more respectful in the way they speak about this topic. Plenty of others are proving how doable that is throughout this thread and they don’t have a bunch of lawyers telling them how to speak about it.
@Lee1 I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and lay low on the heavy handed pronoun police. Now if someone is giving good advice like one commenter on here who gave the way GLAD said to respectfully refer to Caitlyn and all of HER accomplishments including HER gold medal, even pre-transistion in the feminine. I found that interesting, even though Bruce in the Diane Sawyer interview kind of inferred otherwise. I realize some people may be trying to be offensive, but I think since this is a new thing in the media and for a lot people in general, it probably would be best to just gently correct the pronoun usage and look for the tone of the comment before taking offense or calling them transphobic. People on comment sections type or text fast, and the offense could be unintentional.
I stated above I don’t agree with this choice for Kardashian publicity reasons, and wished they had waited till next year to see exactly what Caitlyn will do with this attention. The meme though was just rude and offensive, and I agree we can have courage in many forms and people, and just because you didn’t win the ESPY award doesn’t mean it isn’t courageous.
My problems is she is obviously being given this award for her courage in transitioning in the media eye, not just her athletic accomplishments, if she is doing this all for fame and money does that make it less courageous. I would say yes it does, and a year of her joining and speaking for the transgender community or conversely her just being a reality tv celebrity making celebrity news and we would know whether she is sincere or not.
@noway
I definitely agree. That’s why I was trying, especially in my follow-up comments, to be polite and acknowledge that not everyone has the knowledge or the tools to use the right words all the time. I certainly never intended to call the OP transphobic but said that some of the language was offensive and I have tried to keep bringing it around to the original meme and how the wording and the focus there on genitals was particularly transphobic. I’m really not trying to police anyone’s language, but I also think it’s important for all of our general education and to make sure that trans* people reading these comments don’t feel belittled that we acknowledge when mistakes are made. I’m in no way perfect either! I do appreciate you pointing out that likely no offense was intended.
I tend to agree with you too regarding the sensationalism of it all. I think Jenner is sincere in her transition and in her efforts to educate herself, but she’s also far more privileged than most people in the transgender community and she is probably still very much a Kardashian in terms of hunger for fame, etc. so she’s certainly not the best spokesperson. Unfortunately, all awards shows, especially those that are broadcast on network TV, tend to choose winners that will bolster their own publicity too. It’s a symbiotic relationship. I understand why people think Jenner isn’t the best choice, I just think she’s still a reasonable choice given the way awards shows function.
.. nvm – already said… I agree.
1) There is no perfect recipient of any award. I think people forget that. If someone thinks someone should get an award, give him/her one. There is always someone “better”. If G. Gadson had received it, someone could have come up with a woman of color who served in the armed forces and lost a limb. Harsh? Yes. But wrong?
2) I don’t think most people truly understand what it means for a person in Jenner’s position to come out as transgender. Or to come out as transgender at all. Because she made it seem to easy, so well-planned and executed and because she had all the resources necessary at her disposal. Still, to make this transition and to do it publicly takes a huge amount of courage. To say, at 65, that you will not spend the rest of your life living a lie. To decide that your identity is worth ALL of this hate and ridicule. I honestly don’t think people have the slightest clue. Most of us wouldn’t even be able to admit they read/watch porn.
I agree with you littlemissnaughty. I’m having SO much conflict with my family (not immediate, but extended) over this. They are outraged that she is being called a hero and courageous. I ask them to imagine being brought up in the world of Bruce Jenner, always feeling that you were really a woman, and then telling the whole world who you really were. I’m not sure I would have had the courage. The scorn is bad, but the people who think it is truly sick and perverted are worse. I love my family, but they are just so entrenched in their little white bubble it just maddens me.
I think some people can’t move past their own feelings of discomfort and even disgust. They aren’t necessarily against her transitioning, they are just unfamiliar with it and can’t handle it. Some people realize this and don’t make it her problem or in other cases, the problem of the person who’s coming out (in whatever way). And some think they’re so important that that person should be more considerate of their fragile emotions. Most people are simply selfish and afraid of everything and everyone who’s different. What I will never ever understand is WHY that should be anyone else’s problem. Caitlyn Jenner’s life has zero effect on you if you choose to ignore her.
I usually ask these irate moral crusaders to name one way in which this or someone coming out or getting married affects them. In a real, quantifiable way. Crickets.
I really love this response LittleMissNaughty. It’s a great call for empathy. And GNAT, I understand your frustration. My hometown is full of people in little white bubbles, and I’m about to delete all forms of social media because the ignorance and bigotry is staggering.
There’s always someone who has it worse than you (or was more courageous or whatever) and there’s always more important issues going on in the world to talk about. No matter what. That doesn’t mean someone is not courageous or an issue is not important.
Coming out as transgender with the entire world looking on and feeling the need to weigh in their (often negative) opinion takes courage. Period. We can debate all day about who should win the Most Courageous Person in the World Award and we’d all disagree.
Are there people more courageous than Caitlyn? Of course! Does that mean that what she is going through did not/does not require courage? No! Does that automatically make her a wonderful, magical person who can do no wrong? No! But in this world people aren’t all good or all bad.
Very great replies, everybody. It helps that you understand my frustration but don’t condemn them. I love them, and they are good in many ways, but we will never see this the same way. Littlemissnaughty is right – it just makes them too uncomfortable. That’s fine. Just don’t cloak your discomfort in moral outrage. Maybe try to see it from her point of view. They act like she decided to go through this just to get on their nerves.
Drumming up hate and mid-understanding is ALWAYS wrong.
Well done, Joh. You managed to say more in one sentence than everyone else on this thread has said with all their waffling.
^^THIS….nuff said
It’s courageous because people are getting murdered for being transgendered, and very high suicide rates. The more Caitlyn publicizes everything, attention seeker or not, the more the public gets used to it and acceptance grows. The crowd that remembers Bruce Jenner the Olympic athlete is a different demographic
congratulations, caitlyn, on your happiness. However, there have been decades and decades of people before you who have lived their lives unhidden during eras/times where they didn’t have a FRACTION of the support / awareness / acceptance that you have. To me, those are the people with the real courage. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but i truly believe Caitlyn won the Hot Topic of the moment aware, nothing to do with courage.
Yes blue banana, agree 100%.
He is being honored because it is the politically correct thing to do.
I share your opinion. I do not think that CJ should have received the award and it is too easy to point fingers at those not supporting her as transphobic. The meme was tasteless but was it truly transphobic – I don’t think so.
Half-gender assignment must be what you consider Chaz Bono and other transmen without male genitalia too. You do realize that genital surgery is not required in order to transition hormonally and legally, right? Bottom surgery is not an option in some cases.
Worthless apology, if he is so keen about “the freedom to live the life you want to live” then he really would have never attack Caitlyn. I also hope he does not seriously believe that that man fought for “freedom”.
Really inappropriate for you to denegrate a member of the United States military who gave up so much, no matter who’s orders he was following, for his country and fellow citizens.
Nope
Ugh, I hate memes that make those simple, jingoistic comparisons. The one that stands out in my mind is the one after Whitney Houston’s death. I lose respect for any of my friends who post those.
And Berg looks like he just got his cheek caressed by an old carnival man who whispered something in his ear.
Wait, can you explain the carnival man thing?
Old carnival man? Do tell.
A puppet y’all LOL
Is this some kind of urban lore legend, or from a film?
Thinner by Steven King
I am giggling so hard right now. Kiddo, don’t ever change.
MIMIF! I MISSED YOU SO MUCH.
sally j freedman! I loved that book.
also thinner still gives me creepies.
EXTREME CRAFTING BEIGE BOOTY BILL SHORTS MOOBRA MURRAY SUCH DELUSIONAL CERAMIC COCKATOOOOOS!
Yeah I was just making a Thinner reference.
This won’t be the first or last that someone famous would make a comment like this out of ignorance. I am more offended by a politician who bashes gays or transgenders and make it a mission to keep doing so because to them it’s not the norm and feeds to the rest of the aholes out who have the same beliefs
I agree it was terribly offensive, what he posted.
However, I disagree that Bruce’s issues are separate, in some way, to Caitlyn’s journey and how I (or people) react(ed) to it.
We’re not talking about 2 completely different people, and Caitlyn’s comments about Bruce, like he is someone else, gives me pause.
What Bruce did in his life are messes Caitlyn has to clean up and take ownership of.
You can’t have it both ways.
I will never agree that Caitlyn Jenner is the right person to be leading the way for the transgender community; there are many other people who should, like Laverne Cox. How she lived her life before matters, you don’t get a clean slate just because you think you should.
I agree with you. I don’t think the meme was that offensive though.
Trade 2 balls for 2 boobs is a little offensive.
In theory isn’t that what he did?
also to add, I don’t think the old “you can think more than one person is courageous at a time” holds here.
Obviously, the very nature of winning an award means you honour that person above all else. You can personally think others are worthy, but once someone “wins”, that’s it. Like an Oscar. They win, the rest are second place.
I also don’t think Caitlyn was the right choice for this award. Her journey IS courageous, but above all others? No. I will not forget Caitlyn killed someone, and the next weeks was filmed talking on her cell while driving. She has not learned a thing.
I can’t assess how this is impacting the transgendered community, maybe it is seen as very heroic, and maybe this entire media blitz roll-out is lifting spirits by virtue of the coverage, *any coverage* of a transgendered individual being highlighted. On the other side of that is how effective is Jenner in being the self-assigned ambassador of the transgendered community to outsiders (?), and I feel more able to comment there, in that I’m not sure as an individual, she is the absolute best person to carry that torch to change and hearts and minds.
That meme is f*cking stupid. Hate crap like that.
Hawkeye and I discussed this topic on yesterday’s thread and he reminded me that the LGBT community is not a monolith, the trans community is not a monolith. Meaning, Caitlyn doesn’t speak for every transgendered person. As such, I think it’s fair to criticize her as a person, instead of feeling bound by some false sense of obligation to protect her just because she’s been anointed the public face of a marginalized group.
I don’t like Caitlyn. I have the same issues with her that I would have with any celeb who had a history like hers. I would never treat Caitlyn as a social pariah, but becoming transgendered doesn’t make her bulletproof either. I can support her journey without supporting her as a person.
Of course she doesn’t speak for the entire community, but her prominence and media coverage is, by FAR, eclipsing other voices. And that can be problematic, from a PR standpoint for the community.
The reason Hawkeye was pointing out that it’s not a monolith was specifically within that context, actually. When you say “community” it makes it seem like there’s one opinion, when within the LGBT community there is a myriad of different opinions about Caitlyn.
Also, I don’t think because Caitlyn’s journey is front-and-center right now that people have just forgotten about Laverne Cox or stopped listening to other LGBT voices. As Hawkeye pointed out, Caitlyn is a famous person who happens to be transgendered, not someone who became famous because of being transgendered.
I think that’s an important distinction because it points to a bit of a catch-22 for Caitlyn. As she was transitioning, she could have chosen to quietly live in seclusion as a woman and risk speculation, gossip, whispers, and invasion of her privacy with paps vying to get a photo of her…Or she could come right out and embrace the public spotlight and risk the skepticism of people like myself saying she’s not worthy of the accolades and people like Peter Berg mocking her transition. Neither is really preferable, you know?
I don’t think that when someone is transitioning they should have to hide from society and I don’t know how much we can hold Caitlyn responsible for the media’s obsession with her.
On some level it seems like the media is giving her a title that she might not even want. Pop culture is saying “Caitlyn is the voice of the trans community” meanwhile some trans people are saying “nah, not really dude. She’s just one high-profile transgendered person who happens to be going through her transition in a public way. She doesn’t speak for us or represent us.”
Most people can’t though. There’s a difference between criticizing the person’s action before and after – or completely removed from – their transition and saying that she sucks oh and btw., she’s just a man with boobs. That’s the problem with criticism and especially on the internet. People can’t stop at the right moment. To say you support her in her journey and recognize that it’s important beyond what it means just for her personally while also not treating her like a person without a – sometimes sketchy – past, is something that takes nuanced thinking. Call me a snob but I don’t see much of that in the media or when it comes to Caitlyn Jenner. She’s either a saint or people “criticize” her by calling her names.
This is how I feel also. I didn’t like or admire Bruce, so why should I like Caitlyn? I can acknowledge her journey, but I don’t forget that she was a terrible father and not a very kind person.
I thought your conversation with Hawkeye yesterday was illuminating. I agree with you about Caitlyn…I still don’t like her. But we are talking about an issue that many have ignored for so long, and in that respect, her journey has been useful. Hawkeye raised a very interesting point in that we shouldn’t view the LBGT community as a single mass. Like any other group, they can’t be represented by one person.
Whatever my feelings about Caitlyn herself, that meme was absurd.
@Giddy-Exactly.
@Shannon1972-That was a real eye-opener for me. My bestie is a gay woman and I have a few gay male and female friends but I don’t know anyone who is trans, and I spend the larger part of my life with straight folks. I think it’s easier to fall into the trap of lumping the LGBT *community* together when the majority of your friends are straight cis people.
I think it’s wrong to mock the transgendered element, period, because when you do that, it’s really just a flag hoisted up demonstrating that you are trans-phobic in general.
On the other side of that is the very nature of her family and Caitlyn as a human being, and the marketing machinery behind it. The bottom line is that it is about the bottom line, as far as what is happening behind the scenes. I understand we are a capitalist society and that advertising and cross promotion is the norm, but that doesn’t mean that as a consumer I need to love it, or them individually, as a family, as people, and so on. I will admit that this is groundbreaking, but I can’t say that the sum total will be positive or negative. I can say that it is my strong opinion that the Kardashians, collectively, have had a very negative impact on culture and society to date.
I believe you are allowed skepticism about accolades and/or Cait being the bravest, etc., because the show is about the transition and not about anything else. It isn’t a documentary, it is a reality series. There is much to critique, as there would be for any other entertainment media and its larger cultural implications. Let’s not forget that the bravery is coming with VERY lucrative deals. This is not an act of courage in the stormy sea without enormous financial rewards, PR, and security.
@Kitten and @original key: I totally agree with you on both accounts.
What bothers me is this huge effort from Caitlyn to conveniently dismiss a past that still belongs to her and always will….it’s very hypocrite. I don’t appreciate her as a person as I didn’t appreciate Bruce Jenner. I don’t see how that should really change with her being a transgender. Anyway, the meme was idiotic and the award seemed adequate.
I just feel that the extreme media attention on her story seems to overshadow the pathway of people like Laverne Cox, that IMO can be a lot more relatable and do a bigger service speaking for transgender equality.
@Kitten I almost avoided this post; I’m glad I didn’t. Thank you. (Internet hug or handshake, whichever you’re more comfortable with.)
“This is not an act of courage in the stormy sea without enormous financial rewards, PR, and security.”
I think this is it, for me.
Time will tell if her motives are altruistic. I don’t believe they are, I don’t believe she is thinking about making a positive change for the transgender community- in which case why is she being so public about it? no, she should not have to be in a shroud of secrecy, however, there is a vast difference between hiding at home and doing a reality TV series. She wants the publicity, for herself. Not to help others.
I agree with you @minime, re: Laverne Cox, etc.
This particular thread in this post is some of the most rationale commentary on the issue. No one lumping the LBGT community together or screaming they are freaks and no one flogging a celebrity who dared to disagree (albeit poorly and crudely) with the media’s anointment of this horrible person as a representative for the transgender community. My next door neighbor is transgender female to male, growing up in the 70s when no one was discussing such. He was just considered a “tomboy.” It took courage for him to come out to his family in the 90s, who still lived in his small rural hometown, and to his co-workers in a large city in a very male-dominated career. Shockingly, he says nearly all of his family were accepting, although it was a struggle for them at first. His co-workers were mixed in their reception, and eventually, he lost his job. Things are better for him now, but this man had actual repercussions like losing his home, moving back in with his mother in his 30s, etc. To me, HE is a great representative of how to be true to yourself and others. FWIW, he despises Caitlyn Jenner because he feels she makes things worse for transgendered persons in every way.
Jenner is the right person for right now. By that I mean, the quickest way to desensitization on a large scale is when a very public, very famous discusses something on the record. Whether it’s Betty Ford and her addictions, or Ellen coming out lesbian in the midst of her sit-com – the argument isn’t who’s the best representative (for the sake of argument, Caitlyn is fine, would Clooney be better…sure..but I don’t think he’d make a better looking woman, lol) – Jenner is a sports icon worldwide and a huge public figure…no one really knows Laverne Cox on that grand of a scale. She’s an actress on a relatively new TV show, and wouldn’t have the same impact..even she would tell you that.
But the Kardashians, as a whole, represent narcissism, self-promotion and an insatiable desire for attention and money above all else. I think those attributes (if we can call them that) are coming through with the Jenner situation more strongly than anything else. And many may see Caitlyn as the prior Bruce Jenner athlete, but quite a few see her as part and parcel, an extension of the Kardashians.
Let me give you an absurd-ist example: If Dick Cheney were to suddenly come out as transgendered, all of the baggage and his past agendas would not suddenly melt away, for me, either.
+1 Kiddo
Oh, I think the impact is what you make it. Has nothing to do with who you are, and who you are trying to sweep under the rug, like Caitlyn.
Remember Malala Yousafzai. Who was she, a girl who wanted to go to school. The impact she has made defies description. And she did it without a vanity fair cover, without pomp and circumstance, without money and a reality TV series.
Courage.
Dude should stick to making mediocre movies with crappy dialogue.
So gross. And I’m SO bored with the entire “either/or” thing going on in society right now. You can be BOTH for veterans and for transgender equality. You can be BOTH for equal pay for women AND freeing the nip. It’s such a juvenile perspective to think that one thing cancels out the other.
Heck yeah to this times a million
My thought is that it isn’t really an either/or thing. I just think some of us aren’t able to process the cultural changes that seem to be coming so quickly these days. People are often threatened (or uncomfortable) with issues like this, and it takes time for society as a whole to assimilate it. So people fall back on images that they feel more comfortable supporting (like veterans) in order to justify their discomfort. It’s unrealistic to think that everyone will just fall in line because Caitlyn (and Twitter) decided it’s time.
But the positive in all of this is that we are discussing an issue that has been ignored for so long. Some rebellion is to be expected before it is generally accepted.
No. People should fall in line because it’s the fucking decent thing to do. Just like with the Confederate flag. If you know something is hurtful to another person, why do some people feel the need to perpetuate it? It’s called being a kind and generous person.
You’re right, people should support it because it is the decent thing to do. However, things aren’t always so cut and dried. We’ve talked about slavery for a long time, and we’ve spent many years dissecting the legacy of that time in our country’s history. This is a decades long dialog that is finally coming to the right conclusion.
Change takes time, and the transgender conversation is just starting. If it took society this long to recognize that the confederate flag should not be flown at any state house, why do you think everyone will just automatically accept Caitlyn? (Not to mention that if you didn’t like Bruce as a person, it’s hard to automatically like Caitlyn if you see them as one and the same.). In any case, I don’t think that attitude is any more generous than what you are describing. I have every faith that people like Caitlyn will eventually be seen as just “people”, and not even need the label of “transgender”. But I don’t expect it today.
@Gigi and Shannon-Someone said the other day that change doesn’t happen with education, it happens with generation. In other words, you can’t force someone to understand or accept something, you can only open up an honest line of dialogue and hope that with every subsequent generation, things get a little better.
In terms of the social growth and acceptance that occurs with each generational shift, I can understand from a personal standpoint how some might feel lost at first. For instance, while the term “transgendered” is not new to my generation, words like agendered, bi-gendered, neutrois, etc are terms that I’ve never heard until just recently. I find it fascinating but also challenging trying to wrap my head the meaning of those words and trying to understand how agendered people identify their sexuality.
So just to say that I think there’s a learning curve that comes with the changing times. Compassion and tolerance are imperatives, but it’s ok to let people grasp these things at their own pace. As long as we’re moving forward and not regressing, we’re still moving in the right direction, however slowly.
“Change doesn’t happen with education, it happens with generation”
@Kitten, I love that…it perfectly sums up the point I was trying to make here. In some ways, I think there is a parallel between the Caitlyn threads and the threads we’ve been active on the past few days that have tackled cultural appropriation issues. I’m Gen X and we just didn’t talk about any of these things except in the most general of terms. I am enjoying these discussions so much, and have learned much.
I worked for a few prominent fashion designers in NYC in the ’90’s, and though I had quite a few gay and transgender colleagues, it wasn’t something we openly discussed. They were just different, and fashion takes in all kinds. Different is good. So we were open minded about our differences, but at the same time, closed minded about our similarities, if that makes any sense. I couldn’t see the transgendered woman as someone whom I would have anything in common with beyond the superficial. And I have no idea if they felt any common ground with me, but we coexisted peacefully in our bubbles. It was a start.
Now Gen Y and the Millenials are being conditioned from birth to take the start we made and question it further. And so it will go with each subsequent generation until it ceases to be a necessary discussion at all….it just “is”. But on the flip side, everything changes so quickly nowadays because we are instantaneously interconnected, and the new generations have even less patience for older people to catch up to them. I’m 40, and four decades of conditioning doesn’t change overnight. Even with my previous history, I still sidled up to this issue…watched it, digested it. And I’ve come around, but my boomer parents want nothing to do with it, and I’m not surprised at all. In the end, it doesn’t matter what the boomers think, or even gen X….the young decide the future.
ETA: some of the most open minded people I’ve ever met are actually the elderly. I think after you’ve lived a bunch of decades, have had the benefit of hindsight, and come to realization that you’ve had your chance and are no longer shaping the future…it makes change easier to accept.
” You can be BOTH for veterans and for transgender equality. You can be BOTH for equal pay for women AND freeing the nip. It’s such a juvenile perspective to think that one thing cancels out the other. ”
Exactly!
Was he saying we can only respect the courage of one person at a time? Or was he complaining because Caitlyn Jenner was receiving more wide spread attention than Greg Gadson?
Dude directed Battleship. His argument is invalid.
Ha, perfect.
I actually enjoyed Battleship in all its awfulness.
Wow!!! He hasn’t aged well.
Berg’s been named checked in my mind for things he’s said in the past that were a little “wtf”, so his post wasn’t a huge surprise. It’s always striking that an artist who is capable of producing work of sensitivity and insight turns out to be a douche as a human.
Preach it, Kaiser! Dead on.
Wait, aren’t the ESPY awards geared at sports figures ? It makes total sense that Caitlyn would be chosen over a non-sports figure. I’m not trying to minimize Greg Gadson or the things he’s been through (one of which is being in a Peter Berg movie) but I definitely understand the choice.
Except that Caitlyn isn’t a sports figure, Bruce was.
Which makes Caitlyn an even more unprecedented (and courageous) choice.
The OP argued that the vet wasn’t a sports’ figure, thus Jenner was more appropriate. Your opinion conflicts directly with the point the OP made. I was just pointing out technicalities. I was not advocating for the vet.
Caitlyn is the same person who won the medal. It wasn’t some other guy named Bruce Jenner.
I agree Amy. But it seems Caitlyn wants to leave Bruce behind- remember this quote?
Caitlyn Jenner says, “Bruce always had to tell a lie … Caitlyn doesn’t have any secrets.”
The separation between Caitlyn and Bruce, that Caitlyn makes herself, is what I cannot comprehend. It always reads to me she considers Bruce gone and she has a fresh new start.
She swept it under the rug, until it was convenient for her to accept this award.
I will not ever think her motives are altruistic.
I completely agree, but simultaneously Caitlyn will say that Bruce was a completely different person, when it suits her narrative.
That veteran used to be a sports figure. Jenner also used to be a sports figure (though a more famous one). The story is that the vet was supposed to get the award but when Caitlyn “arrived” into the world, they bypassed the vet and gave the award to Caitlyn instead. If this story is true, then what the Espy’s did is wrong.
Greg Gadson played football at West Point.
Berg is a complete douche canoe.
Caitlin is courageous but her privileged position made her journey easier and her subsequent opportunism tempers some of that courage, which is a real shame.
Others had to overcome A LOT more adversity than Caitlin.
Can we stop pretending that our military is fighting for our freedom?
So…what do you think they’re fighting for?
In my opinion, you can agree and disagree with what the war is about. It doesn’t lessen the fact that the armed forces members are putting their lives on the line for the rest of us. Disagree with the president, Congress, maybe even the Pentagon, but not with the rank-and-file soldier fighting for his country.
I guess there are exceptions, such as My Lai, but I think horrific actions like those are the exception.
I don’t speak for everyone on this, of course. I know we have people of many faiths here and people of no religion, but I’m Christian and I saw a bumper sticker once that haunts me: “Only two people have died to save me, Jesus Christ and the American soldier.”
Oil. Arms industrie. Divide and conquer. Power. Distract the people from problems in their own country. ….
Well said, @AmyTennant.
I agree with everything you said. I’m not a Christian, but I can completely appreciate the sentiment in that bumper sticker.
Jenn, America already has freedom. Nowhere are Americans in danger of losing their freedom. Why do you think they are fighting for something you already have? Freedom was gained about a century ago. No need to fight for something you already have. Its redundant.
Beautifully stated, @AmyTennant!
@Rachael, so WTF are they fighting for? Oil? Land? WMD? To intentionally overtake countries? PLEASE explain your quite ignorant comment. Those are the same people who ensure you do have the right to make and have such an opinion, yet you bash them. Have you ever put on a pair of combat boots? Been separated away from your family for months, or even years? Come home to have reestablish yourself and your position in the home and in some cases to children who have to get to know you all over again? Or better yet, you don’t have the fortitude to be the ultimate strong military spouse, when a chaplain and commander come to your door and advise your wife or husband will never be coming home.
Or better yet, let say Iran or North Korea or whatever implied threatening dictator etc, decides to make good on their implied threats in the future, who do you think are the first people to leave their families to defend us here? You? I highly think not.
While I do think Caitlyn Jenner can use her media glitz and glam to help bring more awareness to helping those less fortunate who don’t have the resources she does, I hope she does put her money where her mouth is on as she says, in helping to make things better on a matter that way bigger than her.
The cause is not “just” … just because auf lot of good people are sacrificed for it.
ALSO: warcrime really is a thing on all sites.
Well you are entitled to your opinion, and where you figured warcrime comes in on this……ok. There are bad influences and good in everything. If that is all you can come with when you think of our armed forces, I feel very sad for you, because they represent so much more than that. Yes there are those who brought violent and disrespect to others , including captives and conducted such horrible acts while they represented our country wearing the uniform, and their punishments given to them are justified, however they do not represent ALL who serve in committing such heinous acts. However, I will not let those ignorant individuals overshadow what everyone else does good to protect our country, including those who have lost lives and are missing POA’s to this day.
No need to feel “sad” for me because I see war as something bad. Violance creates more violance. There are whole generations who know nothing but war. The US are involved in more conflicts than any other country. And somehow the fallout always happens somewhere else. …. Iraq Syria Lybia. ….
That is THEIR *CHOICE*. They chose that job, and they are well-rewarded for it. A lot of it is just self-serving machoism anyway. Give me a person that does things without a weapon in their hands, now that is a real true hero. Not someone pretend-fighting when they already have freedom. It’s redundant and yes, ” so WTF are they fighting for? Oil? Land? WMD? To intentionally overtake countries?” Um, you finally get it! That is exactly what it is all about and it’s the truth, not an ignorant comment. If a man (or woman) chooses a job that has him away from his spouse and family, that is his choice. I personally would not be with someone who did that. You have no right to abuse and attack people and call them ignorant and feel sad for them simply because they have another point of view. Frankly I feel sad for the children of army men. I think it is an incredibly selfish thing to do to children and I for one think it is ignorant and sad. Army people perhaps should only join if they don’t have family or pre-family. But as I said, a lot of it is self-serving need to be a hero-mentality.
*yawn* from one military wife to another, CTFD. One can support soldiers and hope they come home safely while still realising they aren’t dying for the noblest of causes.
That was what I was coming here to say. Is anybody really after our freedom?
There was a terrorist attack in Tennessee but I don’t think ISIS is serious so I think we’ll be o.k.
Am I the only one that thinks Mr. Berg is on some kind of drugs? He looks like he’s on something to me.
Exactly. This is not an either/or. What an idiotic mentality. Maybe his pea brain can’t get that. Can’t you bring attention to the plight of the war veterans after arriving home without demeaning another important issue and being demeaning calling it losing balls to boobs? That is an ignorant comment that is ignoring all the emotional turmoil transgenders face, with many being ostracized their entire lives, suicidal, distilling it down to a superficial snarky barb.
Not to mention that we don’t know if she has even had bottom surgery, and it’s none of our business either way. Very demeaning.
But we do know if you watch Keeping up with the Kardashians as Caitlyn who I believe was Bruce at the time readily told Kim that there was no plan for the bottom surgery, which by the way is a much better way to say it. I realize it is Caitlyn’s personal business, but she is sharing a lot. In Kardashian land there is no such thing as TMI. FYI my sister made me watch it, I learned about Kim’s womb woes and everything. I think my brain shrunk just watching it.
well said Kaiser
on a Most Superficial of notes, Is it Me or this Peter Berg Character looks like he died of compsumtion during the Bronte Years?
LOLOL!
I’ve missed you, QQ.
LMAO.
What I find offensive is that people are hiding behind veterans to make their transphobic comments — they did the same thing when being gay wasn’t in vogue either. It was always, “Why honor a gay dude or lady when this guy had his legs blown off?!!”
One has nothing to do with the other. There are so many definitions of courage and resilience. Homophobia is no longer acceptable, so the people who need to hate, had to find another group.
What you say here is really true and it’s both discouraging and heartening. Discouraging that people still feel the need to denigrate a group, but heartening to think about how much progress we’ve made towards ending homophobia. I really hope we can make the same strides towards eradicating transphobia as well.
this ^
Peter Berg has always been a jerk, IMHO.
caitlyn jenner was and is an extraordinary athlete. it doesn’t work that bruce won a gold medal and caitlyn didn’t. that is extremely reductive and anyone who make the argument knows it – they are just arguing for the sake of it.
while it does not diminish Gregory Gadson’s commitment to our country and courage as a soldier and sacrifice – people join the military enlist knowing the risks. caitlyn jenner was born into her battle.
in our society a 60 year old man assuming the female gender takes a staggering amount of courage considering most can barely go grey without a mid-life crisis. i work with almost all men and i can tell you many of the 60 year olds i am around are desperate to remain vital, young men and they are scared to be anything less. consider that perspective when saying how caitlyn had no struggle since he is rich and famous and wants for nothing. drastically changing anything at age 60 takes courage – having a public transformation into a woman at that age after a lifetime of shame and fear is remarkable.
oh and peter berg looks like a reanimated corpse. he should buy a mask.
Great post.
I agree, and to be honest it goes more in line with what the Arthur Ashe award is about. Remember it wasn’t established because of Ashe’s amazing athletic ability it was created for the courage he exhibited when he contracted AID’s through a blood transfusion, and all his work to help prevent AID’s discrimination. Yes you have to be a sports figure, but the other aspect is the crux of the award.
Now my only caveat is if Caitlyn is really more about the celebrity and publicity, which I think if they had waited a year they could tell more, I think she may not be as deserving of it. To me if she just wants money and isn’t that sincere it does diminish the award a bit.
So well said! Imagine ppl denying Cassius Clay’s accomplishments to Muhammed Ali? Ludicrous and lame to pretend that Caitlyn must forfeit her former identity, in order to embrace her future.
I think most people don’t understand what the word courage means. It means doing something despite being afraid. It means showing great strength in light of terrible things. It means total risk with total uncertainty. This definition applies to both individuals in that meme.
Having said that. Courage also has a sliding scale. Someone who has a phobia and faces that phobia is courageous, but there is a whole other level of courage when someone runs into a burning house to save someone else. The latter is heroism. I think that CJ is courageous, but Gadsen is a hero. Finally, I want to also add that the context of the award is key. Do both qualify for a sports award? I think CJ does, but Gadsen deserves a national award. The context is key here. Gadsen – as far as I know – is not an athlete. So no, he does not get an ESPY.
I think the desire for attention, accolades and money, as far as Caitlyn is concerned (coupled with the celebrity and wealth as security), trumped the fear. Her position on the Kardashians diminished, as to be non-existent. Caitlyn was content with remaining as Bruce while Kris was the PR machine behind that. The discontent really surfaced when Bruce’s role and attention dwindled. Aside from wanting to transition, there was nothing left to lose, but a lot to gain. None of this was revealed until all of the negotiations were signed.
Absoutely agree with you!!!!!!
Amen.
Actually Col. Greg Gadson IS a former Football player from the United States Military academy at West Point. Whether they considered accolades of athleticism from both Naval and West Point academies I am not aware, nor am I going to claim the Espys also include the athletes from the military academies.
To my understanding this gentleman also appeared in Berg’s movie Battleship as well…not that this means much other than Berg choosing THIS particular gentlemen to be mentioned.
I didn’t read all the comments above but what I’m wondering is if this award is given to athletes seeing as it is the ESPYs. ????
In that case there is no need to argue. Caitlyn Jenner is (was) an athlete. If not then I think there are all sides to the coin. Both are courageous in my opinion. Both are deserving. The transgender community/population may need this right now. It gives a little more deserved equality and power to those people and that is needed with everything that is going on right now in relation to this topic (the US allowing same sex marriage in all states, transgendered people being allowed to serve in the military, etc.) This is the year of the trans, gay, lesbian, bisexual really. A lot of improvement in their lives are happening this year.
As a Christian/moderate conservative, I find Peter’s comments misplaced. I don’t understand Caitlyn’s journey. I feel horrible that she has had to deal with her feelings and her disassociation with her body for so long. I just think that we as a society get all shook up about one person and then forget the larger issue as a whole. Why do we glorify Caitlyn for changing her body with surgery, but continue to make her daughters and step daughters the constant gossip for injecting their lips…butt implants…I would love to give Caitlyn a big old hug because I feel like she could use all the hugs in the world, but maybe all her kids/step kids need a big old hug too.
So I’m sure Berg must do a lot to help veterans, right? Since he feels so strongly that they’re being overlooked and all. I read a few bio pages for him and didn’t see any mention of that, but maybe it was an oversight. Or does he think that passing along a snarky Web meme does a damn thing to help?
And also, it’s “principles.”
Come on people, it’s only an ESPY. It’s not like she won a People’s Choice Award.
lol
ETA: I think really the discussion is: Isn’t okay not to like Jenner, not to see her as a remarkable hero, but still be supportive of the transgender community? Those two things are not mutually exclusive (that you have to like Jenner to be supportive), but sometimes it seems that criticizing Jenner as an individual is tantamount to turning against acceptance, but I think it shouldn’t be seen that way.
I agree. You don’t have to love or like CJ to be supportive of trans issues.
I think it is possible to dislike Caitlyn “the person”, but still support her journey and the diverse community she is now representing. I don’t see why one should cancel out the other. I’d love to hear from someone in the transgender community on this. Where are they? It seems so odd that we are all discussing this at such length while (to the best of my knowledge) the actual trans community has been largely silent.
The silence of the transgender community may be an indicator of how they feel. Kiddo has it exactly right, B/CJ is in this for fame, cash and security and only made a move when his role on KUWTK slowed to a crawl.
Sidenote – that vet in the photo was a co-star in Berg’s movie Battleship.
And?
I thought that she shouldn’t have received the award either but that no reason to bash her.
Just agree to disagree and move on.
I have no problem with Caitlyn coming out. My problem with this coming out is, the media is hyping this like she is the first man who has done this.
Watching this coming out all I see is, CJ acting as if the ONLY thing a woman does is to dress up and look pretty, and in my neck of the hood that’s far from the truth. We are so many things all day. We have to get the kids ready for school, get to work on time, coming home stop at the supermarket, cook the dinner, help kids/grand with home work, then tidy up and still have time for the significant other. All I see with CJ is dressing up and selling us her new show that’s coming soon.
I’m just turned off by the constant sell. Next thing is: the news media is constantly telling us how about how fabulous CJ looks. I belive we are getting the big sell, watch beautiful CJ New Show on E.
Tbh, the only time, IMO, Caitlyn looked like a woman was at the Arthur Ash Award, that night was the first time she looked very nice. That Angelina look alike gown was just gorgeous. All other times, IMO, she, CJ looks like a Hot mess, those short skirts with those wrinkly knees Ect, turns me off, I belive she should dress her age and act like a 65 yo woman to get my respect. I want to see how she is going to help the trans community. This is jmo and I’m not buying what the K/J’s Klansman are selling.
Caitlyn couldn’t live her femininity before so she is making up for lost time.
Of course there is more to women than wearing makeup and dresses, ironically you reduce Caitlyn to just that.
You basically shame her for her looks and attempt to dictate how a “proper woman” behaves.
Quite ironic.
You are entitled to your opinion. All I see is a woman the media is trying to push on us with her pretty clothes Ect. I hope CJ is going to do great things, I just don’t see that at this time. I did not shame her for her looks, she is putting herself out there, and they are telling us how beautiful she is, I don’t see it. Have you read what others have said on this site about
Angelina’ and Amal Clooney’s look. It’s just a
part of a gossip site, nothing to do with CJ as a
trans woman. Anyone can make a beautiful speech, I’m waiting to see what she is going to do with her powerful voice on her show.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/caitlyn-jenner-inspired-transgender-teen-barred-high-school/story?id=32492319
As Caitlyn Jenner accepted the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the ESPYs Wednesday night, she touched on the importance of transgender athletes getting to play sports “as who they really are.”
The message hit home for Alex Trujillo, a 17-year-old transgender teen living in San Fidel, New Mexico, who said she was devastated when she wasn’t allowed to join a girl’s sports team at her high school.
Alex was born male, said her mother, Terri Trujillo, but transitioned to female the summer between the 9th and 10th grades.
“I loved Caitlyn Jenner’s speech,” Alex told ABC News today. “It was so inspirational and I’m really glad she’s finally becoming who she is. One thing she said about … thousands of transgender youth are coming out and finding themselves, and that really spoke to me. And also because she was an athlete, and she has this huge platform, and she’s not just being selfish about it. She’s actually doing stuff, and she spoke about others in her acceptance speech, and I love that.”
Well THIS may start to defrost my cold dead heart, lol.
Laverne Cox tweeted:
Just caught @Caitlyn_Jenner’s speech at the #ESPYS. So deeply moved. I feel like an historic moment happened for my community tonight. Thanx
Generally not disagreeing but in response to “Because it’s a competition?” … As far as the award goes, yes it is. That’s just about the definition of an award.
The more I think about this, the more I think that the award was given not for any actual bravery on the part of Jenner, but as a symbol of the cultural movement to accept transgenderism.
I see my earlier comment was not accepted. This site is as open-minded as one of the conservative sites.
When Caitlyn first came out & was announced she’d be receiving that award, I saw so much ignorance in social media. I had to take a break from Facebook.
Social media (and most media, really) seems to be a very polarized atmosphere. Thanks for reminding me there are still open-minded, compassionate people out there.
peter berg= idiot
my 70+ uncle is transgendered. he made his transition at 18, long before i was born. it was always information we were careful with because of fear for his safety, ability to work etc. but there were people who knew the family long enough to remember when there was an extra little girl that wasnt there anymore. luckily no one ever said anything or made it a problem for him. but the fear was always there. i am so happy to see so many transgendered people in the media gaining acceptance (not that there are so many but more than ever before) and i am so happy my uncle is here to see it.
that all being said, i have to side eye the deification of caitlyn. i can support the transgender community without being her fan.
and please be kind about the pronouns if the post is positive and not transphobic. ive been making mistakes for decades. and that is before typing on a phone with old eyes. my uncle even makes mistakes when talking about some of his trans friends. it’s easy to slip up.
This guy is a grade A jerk, always has been. However, he is entitled to his opinion – and entitled to keep his opinions posted on Instagram, even if I don’t happen to agree with him.
Those who comment on soldiers fighting for freedom and denouncing it really should go visit a country that has been war torn in the last 15 years. It will open you eyes to why they fight for those who can’ t fight for themselves, or fight for those who live in fear every day of their lives. Go see a country where landmines are still very much a part of the landscape, where homes have been abandoned because all the inhabitants are dead. Living in North America has made many generations weak and lazy, and that is why they don’t understand a soldiers call to duty. God Bless those who stand between us and the evil in this world. Pray they never need to do it here.
Wish this guy had the courage to stop making crappy movies.
This guy is a douche. Just looking at his instagram you can draw some clear conclusions. But he has the right to be obsessed with military and stupid pics yelling at people, nobody can touch that. What’s even more disturbing, bot sadly not surprising, is that guys like Berg are the ones that have power in Hollywood.
Thank you, Kaiser! Thoughtful and we’ll said!
It’s as if they want to distract from the fact that her speech was immediately followed by a commercial for her docuseries….
It’s also like they want to distract from that fact that she will also walk away scot free for vehicular manslaughter.
I just think it takes a really special kind of stupid to get worked up about a fake award from a network who’s talking heads make the same arguments and repeat the same rhetoric as Mr Bergs meme.
I would have had more respect if Ms Jenner had declined the award.
@Mirrors, they are trying to distract us believing some of us cannot see their agenda. They have a project to sell and they are going all out with smoke and mirrors. DL Hugely, sp did hit the nail on the head. They are telling us that Serena Williams looks like a man and CJ looks like a beautiful woman, what’s up with that. Also, I totally agree with you regarding the vehicular Manslagugter that got swept under the rug. I mentioned that this morning but my comment never came through. I see I’m not the only one who is smh about that.
I watched Caitlin Jenners speech at the Espy awards and I was genuinely impressed and felt she sent an incredible message about acceptance. And I had been a bit doubtful about Caitlin before that.
My cousin was transgender and s/he was a lot older than me when she died of HIV back in the 80s – doesn’t make me an expert but rather sympathetic and perhaps a little insightful. I do think transgender is like anything else … it can be an escape. ”I cannot accept who I am or what I’ve done (a number of ex-military men, people in violent sports have famously become transgender)” … or “it makes me commercially more viable” (lady boys in Thailand). Bruce was not a great Dad, likes attention, is competitive and learned from Mamma Kardashian … soooo we got him in Angelina’s dress (same stylist interestingly). It’s interesting to say the least, more power to her …