As we heard yesterday, the advance reviews were in for “I am Cait” and they were overwhelmingly positive. I quoted People magazine because it was the most concise and was of course gushing, but Variety, The Telegraph and The NY Daily News are among the many other outlets singing the show’s praises. It sounds like it reaches that delicate balance between treating the subject matter sensitively while being entertaining and frivolous enough to keep our attention. The Telegraph called “I am Cait” “noble” while Variety called at least one scene “moving”.
Variety opened their piece with a description the opening scene of the “I am Cait” premiere; a view of Caitlyn in bed, without makeup, worrying on camera about how she would be able to do justice toward the Transgender community. E! has released part of that scene, and comes across as genuine and real. This looks like a real dilemma Caitlyn is facing and not a staged moment for the cameras. It’s hard to separate all that out, but I was impressed. Here’s some of what she said and you can see the clip on E! (it’s autoplay or I would embed it.)
In a sneak preview from the July 26 premiere episode of I Am Cait, E!’s new eight-episode docu-series, Jenner admits she’s having trouble sleeping. What’s keeping her up at 4:32 a.m.? As the 65-year-old explains in the video above, she wants to be a good role model and do her part to help the transgender community.
Wearing no makeup and filming herself in bed, Jenner confesses, “I feel bad that these [people]—especially young people—are going through such a difficult time in their life. We don’t want people dying over this. We don’t want people murdered over this stuff. What a responsibility I have towards this community. Am I going to do everything right? Am I going to say the right things? Do I project the right image? My mind’s just spinning with thoughts. I just hope I get it right. I hope I get it right.”
I can relate so much to this. My issues are not as weighty or important, but when I try to do something new, something that scares me, I’ll sometimes wake up early in the morning and think about it like that. It will also keep me up at night. Caitlyn has received criticism for the fact that her transition is relatively “easy” and “sheltered” compared to so many people who don’t have her money and connections. She realize this and it bothers her. This is not an act, she cares deeply. I have hope that “I am Cait” will feel “real” like this and not like a scripted reality show. Advance reviews say it does handle the subject well. We’ll have to see if the show is able to maintain that throughout its eight episode arc.
I almost wrote this yesterday and think it’s time to say it now. I have an issue with the criticism of Caitlyn that goes something like this, “She’s so superficial. She doesn’t know what it’s like to be a real woman!” We don’t know what it’s like to be born in the wrong body either and to finally be able to wear clothing we feel comfortable in so there’s no comparing the two. I don’t get how anyone can make this argument, but that’s the kind of commentary that goes along with celebrity. So maybe I should embrace that as evidence that we’re accepting Caitlyn for who she is.
No, there’s no major responsibility. I think this is Jenner’s projection/misplaced guilt re- his children.
“His”? Was that a typo, or are you choosing to still refer to Caitlyn as a man?
Leave Citresse Alone! This is not a pronoun war. It takes a while to redirect our feelings toward Bruce Jenner.
Caitlyn Jenner seems to be all about her and children that she didn’t even pay attention to are supporting her. Poor her
The point being that Jenner is an absent, negligent parent.
I’m so tired of people jumping down people’s throats for using the wrong pronoun. We’ve all known Bruce as a “HE” for our entire lives! She also chose to celebrate Father’s Day. I’m sure his family members are constantly needing to correct themselves, and I’m sure Bruce/Caitlyn understands that it’s going to take some time to get used to . It doesn’t mean people aren’t accepting her! So stop looking for a reason to get offended on this subject .
Bravo @JaneM! Bravo!!!!
Nothing can change the fact that he is genetically a man. He or She..who cares! I’m so over this whole thing.
Bruce is genetically a male and this fact can’t be change but if it makes you feel better call him what you want.
And sometimes, Lonnie, those genes are defective/wrongly placed. She shouldn’t be made to suffer through no fault of her own.
I think that while the world may not have a right to put that responsibility to represent the community in her, it’s laudable that she’s doing that for herself and taking a stand for a long underserved and ignored community.
Bruce Jenner had a lot of issues as a parent, as Caitlyn seems to understand and apologize for. But it’s likely that many of those issues were the result of not being able to be her true self to the world and wrestling with that. She’s doing the best she can now, which is kind of all any of us can do.
This!!!
I agree.
I just don’t see how her issues with being able to be her true self reflected wholly on how she is/was as a parent. I get that she struggled, was unhappy, etc., but many people do even if not in the same manner, and I don’t see how her particular battles excuse or explain abandoning her children? Or ignoring the issues now, with the younger ones? Or repeatedly lying to multiple wives? I’m all for her being herself and willing to embrace the responsibilities of being a positive role model and powerful voice for LGBT causes, but that’s the thing I can’t overlook because it does say so much about her as a person and for that reason I think her undertaking of this role may just do more harm in the long run. Just the words “Jenner” or “Kardashian” these days are so off-putting, and many noted on the post yesterday that they’re so burned out on everything relating to this entire Krew.
@acidrock In my comment below, I respond to some of this re: Caitlyn’s parenting, but as to your other points…I think it’s incredibly difficult to be trans, especially being closeted for so long. It’s too easy to think of it simply as a clothes and cosmetics issue, because that’s what’s put out there on the surface. But this is really about feeling discordant your whole life, like you’re hiding something from everyone and not being true to yourself from the minute you get up in the morning and put on the wrong underwear, or go to the bathroom with this body that doesn’t even feel like yours.
I think that just tears at you for years, especially when you don’t feel like you can talk about it, because you’re a huge athlete, and so you just try to subdue it by marrying women who you might have real affection for. And yet that feeling of being discordant and just wrong continues. It does psychic damage, which is why trans folks have such a high attempted and completed suicide rate.
With Caitlyn, I think a lot of her perceived failures as a person can be seen through that lens and deserve at least a passing amount of empathy.
No excuse for a man, woman or transgendered person to walk out on their kids. You try and just keep trying. When she was Bruce, he left those first what, 3? children out of his life. Inexcusable. Then to marry Kris and play the family man? What a slap in the face for Bruce’s first children.
That is too easy an out for Jenner IMO. Other people with issues have not responded by basically ignoring their children. I would think that someone who was struggling internally would find their children to be the one genuine joy in their life. Even Caitlyn going for her own reality TV show is suspect to me. Surely her children would find this stressful regardless of how they felt about Cait transitioning.
I agree, I want to believe she’s better (and CAN get better) than the other Klowns. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt before jumping at her throat, because everybody will benefit from a public figure promoting tolerance.
Apologizing for? How sincere is that?
I guess everyone forgets that as Caitlyn, she was screaming and cursing out the Jenner children on the phone because they didn’t want to be in (exploited) the new reality series.
Exactly.
I see Caitlyn is so fragile she is not responsible for anything she did when she was Bruce. Being a bad father and husband is off limits, don’t mention this because you will be called trans hater. I see we call Angelina, for example, who is a mother and wife all the dirty name in the book, and that’s ok. But Cait is in a class by herself, she is untouchable to some here. It seems everyone must tip toe around Caitlyn , we have to be very cautious not even referring to her as a him when she was a man for 65 years. If we are not saying how gorgeous Cait is and how beautiful her clothing is we are being bad people.
I guess it’s just me, but…an Olympic male athlete gets a pass for not knowing how to parent as a closeted transgender. I mean. Wah wah . The kids had wealth and privilege, another day in paradise and rarely experienced life on the “wrong side of the tracks”; poverty is just the tip of the iceberg, and underneath that is an abusive and drug addled community. Get over it people, I’m sure his kids will too.
This is my problem with Caitlyn: supposedly, she’s been transgender her whole life. Yet, never before the transition did she make an effort to advocate on behalf of transgender youth. Can you imagine how strong such support would have been coming from Bruce Jenner (like the No Hate campaign on behalf of LBGTQ youth by, well, everyone)? I’m just not buying it. This is a show. There is a script. She is a Kardashian at heart. Wasn’t a Bruce Fan; not a Caitlyn fan, either. I think she’s brave for living her truth, but the rest of it is Kardashian smoke and mirrors.
Exactly! Smoke and mirrors. It’s so difficult to believe anyone in this family farts without seeing it in a script first. Everything about them is all about “me me me” and “we want more money, and are willing to do ANYTHING to get it.”
Do you also have a problem with gay and lesbian people who have known they were gay or lesbian all their lives yet have never advocated for gay youth? I was going to list some of the celebs who came out later in life but nevermind.
Instead RIP India Clarke, a 25 year old Black trans woman who was beating to death in Tampa this week.
“Do you also have a problem with gay and lesbian people who have known have known they were gay or lesbian all their lives yet have never advocated for gay youth?”
Did they receive the Arthur Ashe Courage Award as well?
Yep. RIP India Clarke and I look forward to Caitlyn using her newfound platform to address Clarke’s tragic death, you know, like Laverne Cox did with the following: “She was only 25 years old and clearly into all things beauty hair and makeup just like me. I can’t help but feel like I’m next. That’s why I do the work I do because the avg. life expectancy for someone like me is only 35 years old.”
Anybody have a quote from Caitlyn Jenner yet? Very interested in hearing her thoughts on this…
EDIT: Just checked her twitter and all I see are pics of her manicured nails, some tweets of champagne she was drinking, some pics of a pretty nail polish color, and some promotional crap for her E Show.
I agree with Denisemich. This entire thing is getting out of hand. I think Bruce/Caitlyn is selfish and spoiled, just like the rest of the Kardashians. Why people want to put her on this pedestal is beyond me. I have zero desire to watch her dumb show. Over it.
Be careful, Caitlyn isn’t a Kardashian. She had a significant and very commendable “brand” long before the Kardashians existed.
Be careful? Did I miss the sarcasm?
Over it enough to tell us in a handful of ways how over it you are? 😉
I would have an ounce more sympathy if some responsibility had been taken for the children rather than it being all about Caitlyn. I agree its scripted BS as usual from this ate up family.
ITA. The twitter is all about nails, clothes, etc.. This whole thing is shallow as a puddle. Kardashian all the way.
Could be that in part, yes.
I think she looks so much better without makeup. Deep thoughts I know, but I haven’t had my second cup of coffee yet.
I had the same superficial thought (and it’s night here so I can’t use the too-little caffeine excuse). She looks softer/more natural.
I am impressed with caitlyn’s sincerity. She obviously wants to do this right, and try to help out her community. This could be a godsend to people experiencing the same issues/difficulties as Caitlyn has. Now, I would like for her to go rescue her daughters, as well as helping out out The T community. Never leave a woman behind, Cait. Especially your own girls.
What a compassionate comment, I wish she could read it.
Yeah I like this comment. Compassion is needed here.
It’s just more Kardashian Krap packaged up in another bag. This is a man who ignored his older children for years, admitted he wanted his daughter aborted (who says that about their children- will she EVER forget that?), married Kris Jenner and pimped his life and his second family’s life out on TV for years. I am so sick of this family and that includes Caitlyn.
Agree
I’m with you. Not getting on the Jenner bandwagon.
Band wagon indeed. I wish Caitlyn well in her new life and I hope she finds happiness. She – and everyone else – deserves it. But I am not (literally) buying into anything else.
Yup.
Yes! A whole lot of attention seeking and more Kardashian crap.
Anybody who thinks she is doing this for anybody other than herself and her pocketbook is fooling themselves
The children all seem to be positive toward Caitlyn. He’s acknowledged his parenting shortcomings and it seems to me if his kids are comfortable with their current relationship with Caitlyn, than it isn’t for anyone else to take his inventory on it. Parent/children relationships are between the parents and kids.
Well, not when you publicly put said children on a screen berating them for not being willing to join you on the new show. Sorry, but if you make a spectacle of your whole life and your terrible failing as a parent, then it is fair game.
Kourtney is said to not be ok with the transformation.
I’ve reading this single example of Bruce yelling at his kids to be on a show. Any others? That was fairly PMK too.
And i’m hardly going to judge someone who was pretending to be someone for so long and their actions from that. It vibrates into everything of your life. Caitlyn is no saint. Neither was Bruce. Judging Caitlyn by association though…. is that fair? Wait. Ofcourse it is.
Why do they keep providing unflattering photo captures from the show? A week or so ago, there was a disturbing crying screen capture. I like Caitlyn Jenner and what she’s doing, but it’s very hard to reconcile it with Bruce Jenner’s and his life then.
I was wondering why CB keep posting unflattering pictures of Cait. I didn’t know it was her team/network that was releasing those pictures. I thought it was this site that was choosing those unfortunate stills from the show which would have been weird considering how pro-Cait CB is.
Interesting how all the people complaining about Caitlyn are misgendering her.
Curious Indeed!…petty and gross also
I’ve noticed this too. I want to give the benefit of the doubt, that this is new language and new territory and people are just not used to it. But it seems like transphobia disguised as criticism about superficiality and Bruce’s parenting.
Let’s not automatically turn misspeaks into transphobia. Like someone pointed out upthread – this is new territory and it takes awhile to grasp the nuances.
I don’t think so because people were criticizing Bruce before his transition. Transitioning doesn’t automatically unload you of all your wrongs.
If Chris Brown all of a sudden joined the military and saved lives do we just forget about his domestic abuse and bad boy ways along with his failure to apologize for it. because of his transformation into a war hero.
Sean Penn is a very charitable person but he’s still a d-ck. Bruce is now Caitlyn but he’s IMO is still a bad parent.
@crumpet & @v4real I just feel like I’ve seen a lot of celebrities, many of whom are far more absentee and do far worse to their kids than Caitlyn is alleged, be treated far more gently and forgiven far more quickly. So yes, I do think a lot of this talk is diving into transphobia.
Few people are perfect parents, and many of them are dealing with far less than this kind of soul-deep identity issue. She wasn’t exactly passing the crack pipe around during playtime, she just wasn’t there as often as her kids needed, or as much as she feels she should have been. Not awesome, but Caitlyn both pre- and post-transition seems to feel genuine remorse over this.
We don’t know what her parenting even looked like, only those involved know that. So given that there is remorse and that we don’t know everything, why can’t Caitlyn be forgiven and judged for what she’s doing now?
Jensies –
In making those comparisons about how others are treated, I wouldn’t discount the fact that the public is real-time watching one of the neglected daughters illegally date an older man, completely alter herself physically, have no parental guidance, give up on school, drive recklessly, underage drink, etc. It’s not like the neglect is in the past where the public would not be reminded so much…It’s happening all right now. It’s hard to ignore the juxtaposition.
Ru serious? Stop looking for a reason to be offended. It takes time to remember. When people divorce they often still call their exes their husbands ….. It just takes time!!!!!! I think certain people can’t wait to label others as being transphobic. It’s getting ridiculous!
@Claire I agree with what you said. It is tough to watch Kylie day in and day out and not feel that Caitlyn and Kris are poor parents. Kris might be the worse one because she seems to be mostly in charge of pimping out the kids but Caitlyn has her part in this also.
@Celebitchy – Thanks for pointing this out. I noticed this on a previous post about Caitlyn’s ESPY Award speech. The trend seems to be that those who are the harshest critics still refer to Caitlyn as Bruce and refer to her as “him.” These same critics also go on about how Caitlyn is awful because Bruce was a bad dad (despite the fact that Caitlyn has a solid foundation with her kids who have all chosen to forgive her). I think people are looking for ways to justify their unwillingness to accept transgenderism by finding fault and flaws to hang onto from Caitlyn’s past as Bruce.
Or maybe some people just don’t like Caitlyn – as they are entitled to? And Caitlyn does not have a “solid foundation” in her relationship with her children because that foundation was set by Bruce. It seems like her children are willing to forgive her multitude of sins, but whether the relationship will flourish remains to be seen.
Sure, people have a right to dislike her. I didn’t say they don’t. I’m just going to say agree to disagree here. There are still people out there who hate the fact that the person they know as “Bruce” is now referring to “himself” as a woman. I heard a radio show where the DJs and the people calling in were using words like “disgusting” and “disgraceful” to describe their feelings on Bruce/Caitlyn. They also carried on and on about how repulsive “Bruce’s” triathlete thighs were on the cover of Vanity Fair. Of course people are entitled to dislike her as a person, but I still believe there will be those out there who are afraid to actually say they don’t like/understand transgenderism so they’ll just bash Caitlyn Jenner under the guise of her track record as a person. I’m not going to sit here and argue about how Caitlyn Jenner’s kids feel because you don’t know that and neither do I. All I can speak on is what we see and hear from them, and they’ve all said they’re in a great place with her right now so my personal feeling is just who are we to walk around bashing someone for things that the people who actually matter in the situation have forgiven? I respect your opinion.
I understand the skepticism, don’t get me wrong, and I realize that it is asking a lot for people to be understanding that someone may’ve behaved horribly in the past because they were miserable inside of themselves, but this actually happens. Parents who are addicts don’t give their kids 100% and many of them later get their acts together and can only try to start over then. It is human nature that when we don’t feel good about ourselves or we are in a situation where we’re living a lie, we’re not going to be good to those around us. Whether or not anyone chooses to forgive a person for this is their business, but it happens. There are those of us who believe in second chances, and those of us who take a harder line.
@Bella – I hear you. I also hear a lot of the hate and transphobia against Caitlyn, including the “disgust”, etc. So, yeah, I get it and why sometimes someone’s latent and/or overt bias, bigotry and prejudice must be addressed head on. That’s no my problem, though; I’m a big supporter of LGBTQ people and causes, just not Caitlyn.
@Bella, I absolutely agree with you. Caitlyn is given an award/platform and suddenly everybody is an expert in sports awards and in parenting, and they claim Bruce (yes, they call her Bruce) is a fraud to the sports community, to “his” first kids and to the trans movement.
And it looks like they have a legitimate flag for those issues, when in fact they’re just using those causes to hide their hate for Caitlyn.
I hate the Klan, I don’t have a problem accepting it. Bruce was rarely called out for being a bad parent before this, so if people attacking Cait hate her so much for not being Bruce anymore they should at least be brave enough to say it directly.
You’re picking the low hanging fruit and generalizing. Maybe those that have the most illogical arguments are being petty about pronouns. But there are many many articulate people here that do not like this family, who are not being transphobic, and who are using the correct pronouns. It’s very disingenuous to try to paint it as you are.
This is not like Bruce died and Caitlyn was born although that’s how it’s being served up. Same soul, same decisions, same history and repercussions. I understand about forgiveness for being a selfish a-hole if the person at least recognizes that and tries to make amends. But this particular person (regardless of what gender a person recognizes him/her to self identify as) still has issues from the past that don’t just go away.
I’m of the idea that “Birds of a Feather” and I think Caitlyn, having lived as Bruce with that group for so long and having participated in all of that for so many years, is a Kardashian with all of the fame-whoring intact.
And one main reason Bruce was not called out for being a bad parent before was because his physical presence and generally silent demeanor left it open to speculation as to what kind of role he played. Most people just assumed that he was just passive under the weight of his wife’s dominance and energy. Now we see that that wasn’t it. He was planning his exit strategy and (I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised) planning it with his wife for top dollar pay-off. – Note – when referring to actions done as Bruce, I’m using the pronoun that applies then.
Bella you’ve been fighting the good fight on the Caitlyn threads and I commend you. There are legitimate concerns around her as a parent and whatnot but nobody stops there – they criticise her for how she came out, for not being enough of an activist even though she’s only recently come out, then when that’s pointed out they’ll go after her for how she dresses and presents herself. It never ends. Caitlyn apparently can’t do a thing right and heaven forbid she try to own her own narrative.
Aside from the first comment are they? I read the other comments as referring to her as “he” when talking about Bruce as a man as in his relationship with his children when he was Bruce. Is that appropriate? Honest question as I don’t know. Or is she now always referred to as she even when she was Bruce?
Anyway that’s my take on some of the negative comments (not all)
On all of the other posts about Caitlyn, there are many people still referring to Caitlyn as “he” or even still calling her Bruce. It isn’t only this post.
@Brunswickstoval:
I was wondering about that, too. Concering the relationship to the kids she is the father so I’m also not sure whether to call her “he” or “she” when it comes to the current situation. For everything that happened in the Bruce-era I’d use the male pronoun. No idea if this is correct or not.
@ Brunswickstoval and Zip: It’s usually better to use the “new” pronoun, even when talking about the past. That’s because 99% of the time the whole argument is that they felt like “new pronoun” all along.
But that’s not completely universal; a few transgender folk do prefer mixing the pronouns. (I actually wonder if Caitlyn would be one of these, because she seems to talk about “Bruce” as almost a separate person.) So, if you’re not sure, absolute best practice is to re-phrase the whole sentence to avoid the past-pronoun issue altogether.
That said, in these Jenner posts, you can usually tell who’s mixing pronouns because they think that’s the correct way (“he” for past, “she” for present) , those who are mixing because they’re confused (random he/she), and those who are transphobic (always “he”). Accidental typos happen, so it’s better to assume typo than bigot, but you can always just ask “was that a typo”?
Edit to add: Most of the confusion seems to be because “Caitlyn was a crappy father” sounds wrong. You can avoid the whole pronoun problem there very easily: just say “Caitlyn was a crappy parent”.
Yes it’s such a low and gross way to behave.
Ok but does anyone know the answer to how she should be referred to when she was Bruce?
Just keep referring to her as Caitlyn. Her name is being changed in the record books, so just keep calling her Caitlyn. We’ll all know whom you’re talking about.
This. And I love how people are all, “It takes time…” No it doesn’t. You don’t know this person. This is not your father or mother. People just want more time to be a bigot, I think.
+1.
I really think it all boils down to a lot of people not wanting to accept that transgenderism is real. There are people out there and right here on this very site who are actually accusing Caitlyn of lying about this entire thing for attention. I’m sorry, but I can’t find a single way to justify that other than that it is a disguise for hatefulness. I’ll reiterate what I’ve said in other posts: Yes, people are entitled to dislike Caitlyn as a person because we’re all entitled to our own opinions, but MY personal opinion is that a lot of the criticism seems like an excuse to spew hatred.
We have people posting here who are saying they have “Caitlyn fatigue” yet they claim they still can’t figure out if her name is Caitlyn or Bruce or if they should call her “him” or not. This isn’t a blanket statement. I’m only referring to those who have found enough time to develop strongly dissenting views on Caitlyn’s entire being yet somehow haven’t found the time to learn whether to use male or female pronouns. All it takes is reading a single article to observe that Caitlyn is being referred to as “HER” and “SHE.”
Exactly. Like strangers need time to sort through their imaginary personal feeling about the transition of someone they don’t even know? She’s a she. You don’t need to take time to come to terms, to stop using a pro-noun that has been hurtful.
@GIGi: You don’t know her either, yet you’ve been extremely harsh in your criticism of anyone who has ventured to disagree with you – even when they have gone out of their way to present articulate and well-reasoned points.
You have every right to disagree, obviously, but compassion works both ways.
Shannon legit question: what do you need compassion for? All you’re being asked to do is refer to Caitlyn as she and respect her transition, it’s not hard.
Yeah, I find it a bit strange too. Heck, I complain about Caitlyn fatigue almost all the time (and I’m still not 100% on board with this new reality show) but even I know that Caitlyn is a woman and I refer to her with the correct pronouns.
Now, I’m not suggesting that everyone is calling her by the masculine pronoun on purpose, but the coincidence is very…interesting.
I find it puzzling how most people seemed either neutral or sympathetic towards her before (cheering for her to escape the K clan, etc.), and now that she is free, many seem to really be digging deep to find rational reasons for the level of distain they feel towards her. It has always been “public knowledge” that she was not a responsible parent. Now people seem to hate her more than PMK herself. Even if some of the critique is fair, there is still a marked shift. Like people keep saying, she’s the same person as before, so why are people so much more bothered now.
I think people are jumping on engendering as the sign of Transphobia. But jenner had a famous past pre- Caitlyn and people feel duped . All of the fanfare or famewhoreing of Caitlyn makes some people question whether they saw bruce clearly. wendy Williams said this after the special.
If you want to discuss transphobia, look at the posts in regards to Laverne Cox. I believe that is more telling.
There is more to Caitlyn Jenner than being a transgender ed woman. I would love for us to be able to discuss the positives and negatives without pronoun wars
I think it’s more that she wasn’t being hailed as the most amazing person ever then so people didn’t air their objections to her as a person as much.
What Claire said. It’s the whitewashing of her past and putting her up on a pedestal that grates on some of us.
She’s just not a good person, period.
Ok, I get where you guys are coming from. But it seems kind of black and white, and redundant, when every time something positive is written about her, it gets met with a horde of “not true, she’s a terrible person who did x, y and z”. I know, doing something good doesn’t erase the bad you’ve done, but that goes both ways. I don’t see a problem with acknowledging things that are positive or admirable, even though she might be kind of a terrible person in other aspects of her life, and even though there are better and braver people out there.
That said, of course the hateful comments that are just downright irrational and nasty are on another level altogether.
I’ll complain about her and use the correct pronouns:
1) She was a terrible parent pre-transition and nothing about her has said anything different so far.
2) She is (in my opinion) civilly if not criminally responsible for the death of another human being and has yet to address that at all. I get it–legal issues keep her from commenting directly. But she has shown no sensitivity to it thus far, repeatedly being photographed in cars and talking about her newest half million dollar sports car.
And we know for a FACT that she even caused the accident – how? No charges have been laid against her, how do we know it wasn’t the deceased who caused it, or the other survivor? I see no proof that she was responsible, at all. For all we know, she may have been a victim of the other two. As for the sports car, yes, *if* she was responsible, it could be deemed tacky. But, another argument can be made that life goes on, and she shouldn’t hide away just because she was in a car accident, she has the right to go about her life. Why should she put her life on hold and hide away? I’m not even a fan of her, and I can proudly boast that I have never watched one single episode of Keeping up with Kardashians or whatever it was called, however some of the attacks on her are petty, mean-spirited and childish.
Yesterday somebody here said something like “so because we know being transgender is a mental disorder, what other treatments are out there” all casual like it wasn’t a terribly wrong, ignorant and offensive comment.
I’m so glad Celebitchy caught on this and is pointing it out.
not all are.
I am complaining, yes. But I am not misgendering Caitlyn. Don’t mistake my discomfort towards the commercialization of this whole thing with transphobia. I respect that Jenner should be addressed as “she” now – it only makes sense. My discomfort with the Kardashian-like, over-commercialized roll out of the “new” Caitlyn does not make me or anyone else transphobic. My having a different opinion from you does not make me a hater of any kind nor does it make me a bigot – it only makes me someone with a different opinion.
I think a lot of it is deliberate. Because they refuse to acknowledge her as she is because they think it is wrong. I support Caitlyn, I’m just saying that the ones I have come across make a deliberate point of calling her ‘he’ and ‘Bruce’.
I don’t think those outlets have any choice but to be overly positive and gushy about her and the show. Any critique would be perceived as bigotry and the backlash would be swift.
You make a good point. Friends of mine just had a debate the other day about whether or not it is actually OK to say you can disagree with someone’s lifestyle or voice any criticism toward anything pertaining to gay or trans people. While I’m fully supportive of both groups myself, I have to agree that it would likely be deemed unacceptable for anyone to express any dissenting views, even if they were reasonable.
If critics had panned this show it may not have been well received, but then again, if you listen to what a lot of posters write here, they all claim to have inside sources who are transgender and can’t stand Caitlyn and think she is bad for their community.
I mean, from where I’m sitting Caitlyn is getting a ton of criticism. Some of it’s bigotry, but plenty of it is just people plain not liking her. Which is fine by me, and fine by Caitlyn. It’s okay to not like transgender people or celebrities or question their authenticity or appearance. Plenty of people are doing just that. What’s not okay is insinuating that Caitlyn is not a “real woman”, calling her by her old name in an inappropriate way (I don’t think we can never say Bruce Jenner again, but calling her Bruce isn’t okay), or misgendering her with incorrect pronoun use.
@Perfectly executed Chewbacca sound I completely agree. There is a difference between not liking someone and trying to justify trivializing their experience and existence by claiming she isn’t a real woman or that she is only doing this for attention and money.
That’s the one thing I don’t get about the Cait’s critics when they say “she’s not a good representation for the transgender community”. Like some have said the community is diverse and I’m sure some are benefiting from her presence even though she is a Kardashian. I for one have never discuss Trans issues as much until she came along. She is raising awareness and I think that is good. What I don’t agree with however is the obligation that one have to gush over Cait constantly and treat her like a special snowflake who cannot be criticized just because she is Trans.
There’s 3 separate elements to the “not a good representative of the trans community” topic.
1) Is she a good person? Definitely some argument over that.
2) Is she doing a good job? General consensus seems to be “yes”.
3) Is she representative of the typical trans experience? Not at all. She didn’t have to worry about money. She could afford whatever surgery she wanted. She had no choice about whether to transition in public or to change jobs and transition secretly. As a celeb, she wouldn’t have to worry about getting beaten up walking down the street, but your typical transgender person wouldn’t have to worry about 1,000’s of hate-mails and abusive tweets. There’s pros and cons to her fame, but she’s definitely not going to have your average transition experience.
It can be hard to tell which aspect a critic is talking about, and I think that’s caused a bit of miscommunication.
Well that’s not true their are other transgender reality shows out their right now like ” I AM Jezz” and another one about but an older man coming out to her family as a transsexual and her and family journey dealing with that. So outlets are very free to judge Caitlyn show and compare it to the others and call her attention seeker if they want.
This is a good point also. Caitlyn also seems to be an easy target because of her association with the Kardashians. I’m sure this comment will get a lot of dissenting viewpoints in response as all my other posts have.
Exactly… I live in Europe and I’m perplexed by all this propaganda and PC. I’m not against transgender people – I honestly believe they deserve respect and tolerance – but all this gushing about her sounds dishonest. And I’m always worried when people cannot
speak their minds freely. Why everybody has to adore her and support unconditionally all transgender people? I don’t get it.
Free speech is a founding principle in the US, yet we are freely censoring ourselves and each other. There is very little open debate anymore…the pitchforks come out quickly and harshly for anyone who ventures an opinion different from the anonymous masses on social media. Right, wrong or indifferent, I believe there needs to be room for it all.
Example…I was hesitant to even post this response. It’s just as perplexing (and sad) to me.
Ugh. Caitlyn overload but here goes.
What makes me skeptical of Caitlyn’s um, sincerely is not just her connection to the Kardashians and their fame whoring antics.
It’s her lack of involvement of speaking out on the plight of Transgendered people while she was still Bruce. Maybe if we knew he was heavily involved in causes like the LGBT before he transition he might seem more genuine. But Caitlyn appears to be all about Caitlyn .
And of course she’s going to be involved now, it’s like she almost don’t have a choice. If she didn’t people will say how can you become a Transgendered woman and not be the poster girl for all Transgendered people with your amount of fame.
Now I could be wrong. I know Bruce did a lot of motivational speaking but I’m just not sure if anything he did was geared towards the LGBT.
There are pics of a Lambo that was delivered to Caitlyn’s Malibu home. TMZ is reporting the car is rented just for her show. Now why the need to show off like that? Why rent a Lambo for a show about your journey to transition? I don’t get it. Caitlyn’s show is just going to be a spin off of KUWTK…same old stuff.
While she was Bruce, she was in the closet. You don’t make sense. While Kristen Beck was Chris, she was in the closet and didn’t speak out about transgender issues or LGBT issues until transitioning out.
Bruce didn’t know much anyway. As Bruce, she didn’t know any other transgenders, until slowly beginning the process to come out as Caitlyn.
As Caitlyn, she is exposed to a whole new world of the transgender community and she has stated she is learning as she goes and is, hopefully, educating many of us as she goes on her journey.
Bruce, before he came out, had no way of knowing how he would be accepted as Caitlyn. His emotional interview with Diane Sawyer shows that as he was telling the world his story , that he had always felt female, and would soon be transitioning completely and that that would be the last interview as Bruce. There was no way to know what the response to the interview would be. It turned out amazing, but that’s all hindsight. Of course, there are a lot of just vile and gross comments made about Caitlyn or any other famous transgender woman or man.
Its obviously because she was deeply closeted for years. So many closeted LGTB people aren’t active in their support for those causes because they are afraid of being outed.
Well, maybe the whole topic did not affect her as much when she was still Bruce? Sometimes your life drastically changes and things will get more important to you. It happens. Also, maybe Bruce did not know how to adress this issue back then. It would have been in a completely other way than now. Maybe he was afraid of outing himself?
@V4Real – When people are closeted they’re hiding a secret. They hide because they’re afraid of the criticism and rejection that comes along with being different. Gay people and trans people have done this for years because there are people in the world who hate them for who they are and they’re afraid of disappointing or hurting their loved ones or being rejected. There were rumors about Bruce being a “cross dresser” for years, especially around the time in the 80s when Bruce’s face inexplicably became increasingly feminine after many cosmetic surgeries. If Bruce would’ve been some sort of staunch LGBT advocate during this time period, he would’ve outed himself, which he wasn’t ready to do yet.
Every time I post a pro-Caitlyn comment I get a lot of comments in response telling me that I’m wrong for believing her intentions are pure or that people are entitled to their own opinions which I fully respect and understand. I’ve also been accused of being on a soapbox because I’m passionate about this topic. Sorry @V4Real, but I’m going to use your post as an example to try to deliver my point and I mean no offense to you. Yours is a post that shows that you don’t seem to have a strong understanding of exactly what a trans person might have gone through before they came to a point where they felt comfortable enough to speak out and live their truth, but instead of being open to the topic, you refer to yourself as a “skeptic” and you list multiple reasons why you lean toward not believing Caitlyn’s intentions are pure. I’m not attacking you for maybe not understanding exactly what being closeted is about, and I respect that many people out there won’t know. You’ve partially formed an opinion before you fully understand a few really important things.
@Jenna, Luca and Bella.
This is a general response to your comments so I’m addressing what each of you said. I make plenty of sense Jayna. I don’t have to be gay to fight for gay rights including marriage. I don’t have to be Black to fight against racism. I don’t have to be a member of,PETA to fight against cruelty of animals. So what I’m saying is that just because he was closeted didn’t mean he couldn’t speak out for LGBT. Many celebs speak about causes that doesn’t directly affect them. Bruce could have stood on a Platform just like any other celeb and supported the cause.
Now,Bella I’m not trying to attack you either but who are you to say I don’t fully grasp the understanding of what it is to be transgendered. You don’t know me. Just because I don’t pore every detail of my life out on this site doesn’t mean I’m clueless. I live in NY, NYC for years. I knew transgendered people, gay people bisexual people and so on. Some were closeted. Some are in my family. I met a now woman who had the complete transformation. Yes she had the surgery to transform her male genitalia into female genitalia. I met her at the strip club I used bartend in. We were somewhat friends for awhile because we ran in the same circle and I kinda dated her sister for a minute. I’ve met transgendered/transsexuals people at night clubs . And no I wasn’t friends with all of them but I was friendly enough to learn what some of them faced. The shame, the fear, the unacceptance by not only family but heterosexual men and their bigotry. I was a club girl hitting up straight as well as gay venues. Do I know everything, no but what I’m saying is that I’ve been around various types of people from all walks of life. So please don’t try to enlighten me by saying I don’t have a strong understanding. Or better yet unless you’re a transgendered person don’t you claim to have a strong understanding either. Because unless you are one you don’t fully understand what they’re feeling or what they go through. We may have knowledge about it that makes us sensitive to them but we don’t understand it. That’s like a White person saying I understand what it is to be Black and deal with racism. No you don’t.
If you knew where I worked you might want to ease up off me a bit. We have a young gay boy in our care right now who has been taking the hormones to develop breast. He wants to be a woman. I have know him before there was even a whisper about Caitlyn’s transformation. He wore a dress to prom and we allowed him. He identifies more as a young girl and we allow him to be who he is. He gets teased by other boys from other facilities for wearing eye liner and lipstick . They shut the hell up when he starts dominating on the baseball and football field. He’s very atheletic.
I’m around gay almost people everyday and one of them is closeted. Others just don’t discuss it unless they’re amongst friends. Some of the kids I work with are going through identity crisis. Some think they might be gay but not sure. Do you think Caitlyn just woke up one day and said I want to be a woman. She could have been going through this since childhood like some of the kids I work with are.
If you understood what I posted my skepticism is about Caitlyn’s motives not being pure. I don’t have an issue with her being who she is. My issue is with how she’s fame whoring and how I believe how she came out about it was orchestrated by PMK . Follow Caitlyn on Twitter. I’m sure you will enjoy all the tweets about hair and nails. Why is she getting her own show. Because she’s a true Kardashian. I would rather see people like Janet Mock and Isis King.
I’m not trying to be preachy or mean. I just don’t appreciate it when someone who don’t know me assumes I am uninformed. Next time just ask me if I’m aware of a particular subject. Don’t base it off of my opinion of Caitlyn, who’s a reality star
Boom.
@V4Real – I based my ASSUMPTION on what you said, which led me and others to believe that you may not fully understand what being closeted entails, which would explain why you’d say you’re skeptical of someone’s intentions because they weren’t active advocates while they were closeted. Sorry if I was wrong in my assumption. I understand your views and respect them. I get where you’re coming from about things being superficial so far, but I wonder if I wouldn’t be reacting the same way if I were in her shoes and had to live a lie for so long. It’s also hard for me to find fault when so much awareness has been raised by her, whether she is in fact a famewhore or not. No one else has gotten the conversation started the way that Caitlyn has. I can’t help but find that to be a positive thing.
I wasn’t trying to say you were wrong or weren’t entitled to your opinion. It’s hard to have a debate at all on this site when people are so immediate to get offended, jump all over me and accuse me of being on a soapbox, tell me I don’t respect the opinions of others, or anything else all because I express a dissenting view. For example, @Kitten here has chosen to write “boom” for some reason, and in the last forum involving Caitlyn Jenner, she chose to tell me I was wrong for my opinion because it was different from hers. I thought this site was better than “hive mind,” but now I’m not so sure.
I respect differing views, I wasn’t trying to be arrogant or obnoxious. I genuinely assumed you didn’t really understand what being in the closet entailed because I figured if you did, you would probably understand why Bruce wasn’t an advocate until now. I understand the skepticism and I guess in the case of Caitlyn people are divided between feeling like a second chance is warranted here, while others don’t agree with that and that’s fine. I guess in the future instead of commenting in response to people who don’t share my views, I’ll respond to those who do.
Amen. Been saying similar things since the whole transformation story came about – publicized interviews, awards, a new reality show… with a comment at some point that sure, this is how one pays the bills. It is a real transformation, sure, and I wish Caitlyn nothing but the best. I sincerely hope that at least some increased visibility and acceptance for all trans people everywhere will be a result of it.
BUT I do not like Caitlyn at all – perhaps even more than I disliked Bruce, because as a woman, I can’t possibly understand how you watch your youngest daughter grow into a vapid brainless sex toy, how you allow the elder children from previous relationships to become estranged and only bring them into view as extras for your show, and how in all this talk of money (watch for the endorsements to follow) at NO point in time have I heard about an actual physical, significant, contribution to the LGBT cause. No money donation, no spokesperson role, no offer to go and talk – to anyone, from political forums to the military. Accepting awards is easy – I would like to see her actually put in the work to earn them.
As an Olympic medal winner and public speaker with a wide audience, she could do so much good. But it’s all about that Kash, the beauty stuff and the pics. Bleah. (Which is why I adore Laverne and not Caitlyn. You can be glam and fierce AND an activist, not just pretending to be one.)
so v4real does your closeted friend do a lot of public LGBT advocacy? Do ALL your gay and trans* friends do a lot of advocacy or do they just, you know, live their lives as the example they want to be and maybe an event here or there?
You are now twisting it. You said that you would only believe her if she had campaigned for transgender rights, as if it is imperative that everyone does, where indeed for those who have come out, it is very rare indeed that they actually do when they are in the closet. If you knew how much they go through, then you’d know WHY they don’t campaign for rights beforehand, so your post is redundant in and of itself.
How many closeted people do you know that advocate for something that they are actually hiding from? Come on now! It would be rare and strange if she actually did.
@Lana – Cross-address me all you want, that Jenner is now pretenting to be the spokeperson martyr of a community. The people who pretend to be what they are not are called impostor.
gal, Caitlyn is not pretending to be spokesperson at all. She has never said she was, so stop creating your own narrative to support your bigotry.
@Lana, as for self narrative and bigotry to go, I’m not a trance-sexual named Bruce Jenner.
I will be watching this show. I think Caitlyn talking there is sincere. People saying she’s not the right spokesperson, well, she’s not the only spokesperson. Stop trying to make it black and white and that she’s the be all end all to the movement and so is doing it wrong and is the wrong person for it. This is not an either/or situation.
It sounds like they are striking the right balance to make it entertaining and informative and heartfelt. This is just another way of having the transgender community in the public eye. The more you see people in the transgender community the more used to it you get, and hopefully bring a little understanding to those whose minds are completely closed. Jazz, the young, transgender teen, has her show starting. Another show is starting on this subject. Kristen Beck is running for Congress and just gave a great interview on Yahoo with Katy Couric.
Exactly, if somebody doesn’t think Caitlyn is the right person they can always support another transgender figure to help raise awareness.
Ugh, so sick of this. Seems like Caitlyn has appointed herself spokeswoman for the transgender community. Why does she think she is so special?
I can’t vouch for her sincerity but she is special as she has an inbuilt support and audience that comes with the territory. No doubt there are a few people who might watch out of curiosity and actually come out understanding this issue better. I knew not a lot about transgender but her struggle has made me interested and I’ve educated myself about it so if my kids ask I can try and answer with a bit of knowledge. I don’t see that as such a bad thing tbh
Too much contact with Kris and her “create a universe” mentality. My best friend’s mother was like that:the idea that there is our family then there is the rest of the world. It creates an environment that allows excuses for bad behavior and a sense of entitlement. Sound familiar?
I would be more inclined to believe in Cait’s sincerity if she had shown more concern for the lady who died in the road accident, the whole thing seems to have been glossed over. Maybe it doesn’t make for such a good story.
See, this is a perfect example of how to criticize Caitlyn without being accused of bigotry. Focus on her actions and use the correct name and pronouns.
To be frank, I think its up for debate whether Bruce is a he or she. His name change isnt legal and he hasnt done whats necessary for even the government to refer to him as a she.
I agree with Ally M But I think her lawyers probably advised her not to say anything about this, because saying sorry can be seen as admitting guilt/ responsibility in a court of law.
@stacey. No her being a woman named Caithlyn is not a legal thing. She is who she says she is.
i agree, she can call herself whatever she likes but i hope she doesnt expect others to play along. At the end of the day, she is just a cross dresser.
Though i suspect, she already get reassignment surgery. Just a gut feeling
I agree with everyone here: Caitlyn is a she.
She is who she says she is and it’s not for us to say otherwise.
I’m kind of surprised this is even a debate.
@stacey. No that is not how this works. There is a huge difference between a cross dresser and a transsexual.
A cross dresser is a man who likes to dress up in women’s clothing but still identifies as a man. A transsexual like Caithlyn is a person who was born, seen as a man (although that depends because there are a lot of genetically varieties) but who identifies as woman.
By identifying I mean who the person feels what gender he/ she really is on the inside.
So it doesn’t matter if Caithlyn still had a penis or not. It is not that straightforward. Having a penis doesn’t make her a man. It’s her identity that makes her a woman.
For the record it is not simple genitics like the xx or xy chromosome. There are a huge number of people who are born xx but have a penis, or the other way around. There are people with xxy or xxyy or any different combinations who have either, both or no genitals.
And life is difficult for these people because they are judged and bullied for whom they are. Thing is they had no choice in the matter – they were born this way. And they deserve our respect and acceptance.
Rant over.
I identify Bruce as a trans rotten brain.
gal you’re so witty. When’s the book tour?
Gal I identify you as a rotten heart and soul.
@Ange – I need a publicist first. Are you free?
@ Lana – You are a rottenophobe!
All of the eyerolls.
I plan on watching the show, too. I hope Caitlyn can forge ahead and do her own thing – away from the Kardashians.
The show is on E Network…I can guarantee you Kim and her sisters will be making an appearance in the very first episode ! I don’t think this show will be as genuine as we think it will be. It will still be scripted like all other reality shows are. I know there will be very little cynicism when this show airs because people are afraid of giving their opinions as they don’t want to come off as a bigot. You basically are being forced to like Caitlyn even if you don’t like her (and it could have nothing to do with her being transgendered, you might just not like her for a number of other reasons). Just like the show Big Brother has a transgendered female on it right now. One of the other contestants said everyone is afraid to say anything about her or put her up for nomination because they don’t want to be “hated by America”. I mean seriously? We are supposed to treat ALL equally. When someone has transitioned, they are simply male or female now…no need to say “transgendered”. Treat them as you would treat any other male or female…no special treatment.
I’m sure you’re right that some Kardashians will be on the show. What I hope for is in the future after the dust settles – that she can become less associated with that clan than she currently is. One way to do that is to veer away from this reality show platform.
I think that there is a lot of ambient unfocused anger out in the world. Caitlin has strikes against her culturally from all these perspectives I guess. She’s rich. She’s been part of a reality TV juggernauit of the K’s. She’s been struggling with her marriages and families for her entire life and her parenting issues have been throughly outed.
She hits all the sweet spots of things people love to hate just now. Money, fame, sexuality, I’m going to wait and see how this turns out before I get on the hate wagon.
From preview clips of her show, the only thing they have showed is her getting her hair and make-up done and shopping with Kim. Maybe they are using those clips to get people to watch and then they will get you with the real stuff and the struggle. But what E should have done was show us previews of raw emotion and struggle…that would make more people want to tune in and take this show seriously.
Yeah, Caitlin isn’t allowed to be happy and enjoy her life. She’s got to purge her raw emotions on TV and suffer.
If she’s happy, if she’ reconciled with her family, if she’s doing well, we’re still going to be mad at her.
@ The Original G
Isn’t the point of the show to let people in to the struggles of a transgendered person??? I don’t think people want to tune in to see Caitlyn and Kim shop. You can see that on TMZ.
But isn’t the point to let trangender people share their real story, not proscribe to them from the outside what that story is, or what makes it worthy in advance?
@The Original G-Yeah I guess but then aren’t we allowed to say “holy sh*t this is inane and vacuous” and change the channel the same way we would if we were watching Kim Kardashian go shoe-shopping?
I think that’s all that Me was saying…
I don’t want to see any woman–transgendered or cis–talk about their hair and makeup and all day. It doesn’t mean I’m transphobic, it just means that I appreciate substance.
And who knows, maybe Cait’s show will have substance but judging by what I know about this family, I don’t have high hopes.
LOL come on the show will be airing on E. There will be no “realness”…which is a shame because the show could help a lot of people if it actually shows Caitlyn’s REAL life and issues…not scripted shows based on materialistic crap. We’ll see.
@kitten. We are all totally entitled to change the channel, or not even ever tune in, for that matter. I don’t think lack of interest in Caitlyn’s beauty rituals makes anyone transphobic at all.
Personally, I don’t know that much about transgender people and maybe it’s presumptuous to say this, but I don’t think the average person or CB poster does either. I’m open to hearing her story, warts and all. Maybe it will be grauitious crap . Or, maybe it will help us begin to understand this all in a popular and accessible format.
But, I, with my limited understanding of this entire issue am NOT goin to tell Caitlyn what her show should be about and chastise her for enjoying things that she’s waited her whole life to do. Maybe some people would feel better if this was some grainy cinema vérité production on the nobody-watches-it channel? Maybe they’re right.
The idea that this is not real becasue it’s happening to a wealthy, famous, succesful athlete does seem to me, to be about, as I said in my OP, the need for people to vent some ambient anger at someone for other issues.
@ The Original G-Not presumptuous at all and you speak the truth: I don’t know much about transgendered women. I also don’t know much about interplanetary space flights, but if I want to learn about interplanetary space flights, I’ll watch a Nova special, not MTV, you know?
In other words it’s not about the subject matter, it’s about the source material. I want the education, but I want it from the POV of a person who is actually going to talk about the experience in a meaningful way. It doesn’t have to be dramatic or gritty but it should feel genuine and genuine is a word that I don’t typically associate with anyone in this family. I don’t need to see another rich white lady being a rich white lady. There are already too many Real Housewives franchises out there.
I mentioned it up-thread but it bears repeating: so far, still no word from Caitlyn about India Clarke.
Sigh. For someone who mentioned young transgendered teens dying in her ESPY speech, shouldn’t she acknowledge the latest murder of a young trans woman?
Everybody knows who Arthur Ashe is right? That man risked everything and devoted years of his life to AIDS activism. To me, he is the very definition of courage. We’ll see if Caitlyn manages to come anywhere close his legacy.
I watched KUWTK for the first time the other night. Bruce was on it and I was struck by how much he played it up for the cameras whenever there was a break in the girls’ attention whoring. I found myself thinking how much he must be enjoying the spotlight on him for the first time.
My heart goes out to transgenders who have to battle such deep and painful issues as their very identity, but someone like Caitlin Jenner, I struggle to believe she has any depth whatsoever. Anyone see her IG post on her new show closet? ‘Don’t get jealous, Khloe’? Really? What kind of weird dynamic is this with your children?
Yes and I agree with @kitten upthread. I don’t have a problem with transgender people but I do have a problem with narcissistic famewhores and I think she is one of them. I do believe she is scared and unsure but more for herself than a community. She could spotlight the many issues that transgender people face everyday but instead she is partying, shopping and talking about shoes and nail polish. Trade every other tweet with something of substance and then I am more likely to believe her.
Cait’s script writer will deserve an EMMY. They are pulling out all the stops to get us talking about her. Including releasing the horrendous stills. That is on purpose, anything that causes debate is a good thing with celebrities. Smh
I dont have strong feelings about Caitlin, just wanted to say jazz of “I am jazz” should be getting at least as much praise. I saw the first episode of her show and was so impressed by her strength and confidence and openness at age 13/14. How many teenagers could do that? She is a real role model. And her family is awesome. Not that its some kind of courage competition and not to take anything away from caitlin, but jazz is the most inspiring for me.
I think putting your preteen on hormone blockers is abusive. parents who put their kids on hormone blockers should all be pursued by CPS imo.
We dont let 12 year ols drive or drink or own guns. That is a child who does not have the wisdom to make life altering life-long decisions. Who are the adults in this situation?! seriously
Thats interesting. I actually work for cps (not in their state). I can certainly see why some parents wouldn’t do it and im not sure that I would make the same decision for my son. But its clearly a decision they gave serious consideration and they are working under advice of doctor. Thats not child abuse. And if cps did anything about it we’d be skewered in the press for wasting our time on this instead of real abusers. Not every controversial parenting decision is appropriate for government interference.
Jazz has been transgender since three, acknowledged by five or six. The blockers delaying puberty are fully reversible and there are studies out on it being safe for transgender youth and essential to their emotional wellbeing. I have watched all of the documentaries on Jazz.
Her parents are far from abusive regarding their decisions in support of Jazz and these decisions are not made lightly. Because of them, Jazz will have a much greater chance at a happy life because of their support of her.
I just cannot accept that a 3 year old can identify as trans. I think the parents are suggesting things to the child and projecting this onto Jazz. Ive seen Jazz’s special and the other trans kid special on TLC. It wasso disturbing. One of the parents was asking their 7 year old, how do you want to get your boobs?
I was like, why are you even talking about boobs with a 7 year old!!!!
@Stacey, thank God, you aren’t the parent of a transgender child. That’s all I’ve got to say. The suicide rate is 50 to 60 percent and emotional support is crucial. I in no way got they were suggesting this to their child. They are a very average, normal family who dealt with this responsibly every step of the way educating themselves and seeking help from medical professionals.
People see what they want to see through their biases.
Stacey- kids definitely pick up on gender expectations very early, so I’m not surprised that a three year old could feel as though he or she didn’t fit into the expected gender box. If we ever get rid of those boxes, maybe such kids won’t feel the need to alter their bodies. But for now, there’s a real social problem when the kid is naturally drawn to activities and dress etc. that don’t fit the genitals. Some families and societies are more relaxed about it, but kids definitely know when they are not truly accepted for who they are but would be if their genders were switched. The very names used when I was a kid (tomboy for girls who wanted to do something more than keep their dresses clean, for instance; and heaven help the boy called a tomgirl) made it clear that not much deviation was allowed except as a temporary phase.
I don’t like the idea of a young teenager being the focus of some reality show, though. I understand why the parties involved might think it’s a good idea, but TV has a poor track record with kids. More likely messes them up.
I guess were different type of parents. I am of the mindset of loving and accepting yourself…the way that you are. Not “fixing” yourself through plastic surgery to be the “real” you.
im curious if there are any blind trans people. Can a person who has been blind their whole life be trans? Trans people are really wrapped up in “matching” the outside to their insides and say their soul is their “real” gender. Can someone who cannot see their appearance also feel their “outsides” dont match their “inside”?
Stacey it’s very easy for you to promote self acceptance because you identify as the gender you were born as, others aren’t so lucky.
What channel is this show on?
Believe it or not – TLC.
Kitten, Jazz’s new show is on TLC.
Here’s the documentary on her life made around three or more years ago. There’s been several specials, like one on 20/20 when she was young and about transgender children, etc. Here’s the great documentary her family did. I’ve posted this before. She’s a great and inspirational young girl. It’s an amazing documentary.
Pt. 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wh6NecfMiE
Pt. 2 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuoJEy70XjE
Pt. 3 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwoYrYLtkJA
That documentary above I posted was Jazz turning 11 and about her story.
Here is a short interview with her at 14 last year. It’s amazing to see what a poised, remarkable young teenager she has turned into. But she was already amazing at 11. Then you scroll down to see comments on the youtube video, and it’s disgusting how ugly people still are about this. She’s a strong young woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2JdPNAsaTs
Thanks Jayna and Mayamae. I’ll start with the youtube vids. It’s hard for me to support TLC but I do want to learn about what trans people go through.
Nothing against Cait, but the angle of that picture made me think of Zelda from Pet Sematary.
About the real woman thing…I am a woman, and still I don’t know what “being a woman means”, but as Simone De Beauvoir wrote “one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”
So… Caitlyn, rock that Versace !
Jenner being concerned about ‘responsibility’? Oxymoron! And someBella has a chip on their shoulder.
My earlier post disappeared I think but anyway if I attempt to grow a schlong by taking male hormones and but then decide to keep my boobs and then insist everyone call me He, and his etc… esp when I start my new job at the construction site with my new support bra, I think people there will still call me her, she, etc…. esp no matter how big I can grow a she-schlong by taking male hormones.
Honestly, if you worked in my office, I would call you whatever you asked me to call you.
BTW, I know two women who are successful general contractors. I haven’t asked but their bras are just fine from what I can tell.
“… if you worked in my office, I would call you whatever you asked me to call you.”
I’m not sure I like the sound of that 😉
I think I’m just putting the word call with the word girl (female) and getting the high class (Madame Mayflower) prostitute imagery, and I’m pretty sure you didn’t intend such.
Anyway, problemo is- men are quite visual creatures, therefore, the bigger the breasts, I think the more difficulty they would have calling me “he” whether on a construction site or anywhere else.
She seems genuine, I guess. I do think she has misplaced guilt with her kids. I do think she sees becoming a woman as a fresh start with her kids. It’s not, because sadly kids don’t forget absentee parents no matter what.
She does have a responsibility, especially if she wants this reality show to document her life as a woman. I think its about time she starts showing care and concern for fellow trans people. I don’t think she is nearly as vapid as the K-klan.. I’m happily surprised that she is speaking about more than clothes and make up. Good for her!
It is not uncommon for people who do some good on a large scale to have problems doing right by their families. The history books just leave a lot out when it comes to family dynamics, and just focus on the larger scale activities. Many people who are widely admired for their public activities were lousy parents or at least seriously flawed – just like the nonfamous.
Men in particular tend to think of themselves as dispensable as long as the children have a mother, so they can disappear for long periods and still think the kids are ok (or even better off without their dads, since so many men feel incompetent taking care of children). I’m sure that was part of the dynamic driving Bruce. He just didn’t think his kids really needed him. Wrong-headed thinking, but no different from many other men who are decent in their own way but just clueless. None of Cait’s kids totally avoid her, so they apparently forgive her flaws as a parent and are interested in forging an adult relationship with her. At least two of her older kids have said she seems to be a better person than Bruce. Time will tell.
I do think her two youngest need a lot of help, but they’re the only two with a Demon Mother. So the idea that mom knows best just doesn’t work with them but Cait may not be strong enough or wise enough to deal with that reality. Her transition is probably a major complication in her relationship with Kendall and Kylie. That doesn’t mean Cait can’t do good things for other children and adults just by telling her own story and pointing out the stories of others in a very public way. She feels more able to do that than deal with the mess that is now kaylie’s life, for instance, especially since both of the youngest girls are still very attached to their Demon Mother and are basically fully formed. Really, Kylie is almost 18 and Kendall has her own career and money now. Kids are on their way out of the nest by that point. There may not be much Cait can do to help them, and maybe that’s why she now feels driven (and able) to help others.
Oh Please. Jenner hasn’t done one thing for ‘the community’ until it’s time to pander for money and negative fame. Buh-Bye, Jenner. Go be a parent.
Best comment!
Gosh! Bruce is playing now Saint Mother Caylin.
And I wish Jenner wasn’t crying so much. Dog the Bounty started crying at the end of the shows and now Caitlyn Jenner turning on the waterworks too.
Can’t Jenner just volunteer at the local hospital or foodbank and stop being such an emotional fameseeker?
@celebitchy Thank You for thoughtful commentary on the series, and on the “superficial” comments.
I can’t imagine spending 60 years wanting to publicly be female, to not have to sneak around to wear dresses, etc…and spend 20 years with highly image- and clothing obsessed females? That would be icing on the cake of torture. So finally Caitlyn can just BE.
As Bruce, he achieved Olympic success on his own, without special expensive coaches, etc. I expect Caitlyn will put the same motivation & resolve toward helping the transgender community. I have never watched the K show, I was neutral on Bruce, but this story has moved me significantly.
Here’s a fantastic recent interview with the first transgender mode, Caroline “Tula” Cossley,l from back in the ’80s, modeling as a woman (not out as transgender) and the first openly transgender woman in Playboy in ’91 after being outed.
She gave it before the Vanity Fair article came out on Caitlyn showing Caitlyn Jenner now a woman, and having only seen a few clips of the Diane Sawyer interview, just as a reference for when she talks about “Bruce” in the interview. Her interview is amazing about her life. Other sites have published today parts of it, but this is the full interview that has come out in Playboy. Her book she once wrote is just now available as an E-book on Amazon, “My Story”. I’m going to read it.
http://www.playboy.com/articles/tula-first-transgender-in-playboy-1991
Jayna, I’ve been reading your comments with great interest. I hope you check back on this thread. You remind me so much of myself when I was in my early twenties. (I am not assuming you are in your 20’s…it’s just that I felt as you do back then. I believed so strongly in issues and I wasn’t afraid to state my opinion.) Anyway, I remember Tula from when I was younger – she was an absolute stunner. It was almost impossible to believe she was ever male, and I remember being quite confused by her. How could someone born male look so feminine? I had almost no understanding of what a transgendered person was. I was in college and exploring my own “femaleness” – and I didn’t even understand myself. Now I have a lot of information on trans people, and I think a much better understanding of their experience. I really have Caitlyn to thank for that. I might not care for her as a person, but I can appreciate that she has been a major catalyst (whether or not it was her intent).
Here’s the thing – I’ve been going over in my mind why I feel so uncomfortable about the turn the conversation is taking. Would Caitlyn have been so lauded if she was unattractive as a woman? I love that you brought up Tula. Here we have another biologically gifted person – she has the good luck to be born extremely attractive, like Laverne Cox. Would be be so celebratory if these people were average looking? Do you think it’s important that we now have yet another gorgeous trans person who is being objectified? The comments on the Tula story all speak to her looks, with the more “enlightened” cis guys having the guts to admit that they find her attractive or she turns them on. She is finally being judged as all women are – but is this progress? Does it matter, or am I not seeing the forest for the trees?
I’m so torn on this…it’s hard to separate trans issues from those that all women face, and I’ve always hated the objectification (even if I’ve used it to advantage – I had to). I passionately fought against it at college and in the workplace. So I have a hard time with that becoming a dominant part of the issue. Withering suicide rates aren’t sexy, but playboy spreads are. I’m not trying to debate you – I’m truly having trouble figuring out where I am with this aspect of the conversation, and I’m wondering what you think. We’ve differed on this issue a bit before, so I believe you’re the best person to ask. I rarely learn from the people who agree with me. 🙂
Shannon, I get where you are coming from about the lauding of how attractive certain transgenders are. But there are many over the years that aren’t and were followed or reported on when they came out. I think the narrative for so long is transgenders are freaks. Those that are women are just snarked about looking like men in drag and are now freaks. So I think when you have those that are very feminine looking and pretty it does get a lot of attention.
We had no way of knowing Bruce was going to be an attractive female. I certainly didn’t think so. In fact, I’m stunned. I’m also stunned by Caitlyn’s great fashion sense, save a few unfortunate outfits that I feel are wrong for her age. While I disagree with the objectifying cover of Vanity Fair, in a way it was in your face in a way people didn’t expect. I still would have done a different cover. So in a way, the fact that Bruce coming out as Caitlyn and having such flare and being more attractive than most thought she would be is a good thing. It shuts down many that want to say she just looks like a man in drag.
Ten years ago I used to go into a convenience store where I get gas. There was a transwoman who worked at the counter. She was tall, maybe even taller than Caitlyn, and thin like Caitlyn. She must have transitioned later in life because she had male characteristics, large hands, etc. And, honestly, she looked like a man in a dress with long hair and makeup on, deeper voice. I felt so sorry for her because I knew, even back then not knowing much about being transgender, that she must be treated with a lot of disrespect out in the world or stared at. I felt so much compassion for her, because I knew the world must be hard to navigate for her.
So in a way I’m so happy for Caitlyn that she feels so pretty and is getting attention for that. That may not make sense to others. But she is 65 and let her have a little fun with that after feeling ashamed for so long that she had these feelings inside, a woman trapped inside a man’s body.
Kristen Beck jokes she looks like a man in women’s clothes and says she’s okay with that. As a military person, an ex-Navy Seal, she can reach macho men in a way many transgenders can’t, because she can talk about subjects that will ultimately maybe command respect from people that begin seeing all aspects to her instead of focusing on the fact she is now identifying as a woman. Although, she is now identifying as a two-spirit person, which is confusing. But I noticed in her Reddit Q&A, because she is so military in many aspects, talking about very macho things, she brought around a lot of respect on Reddit from young guys.
It may not be fair, Shannon, regarding Bruce getting so much attention for looking pretty, like that should matter. But I do believe if Caitlyn was less attractive, she still would be be garnering a lot of attention for this specific period of time, the emerging of Caitlyn on the public scene, just because Bruce Jenner is so famous as an Olympian athlete. As a 65-year-old woman, if she was a plainer version of herself, would the attention stay as time goes on, probably not for following her out and about too much, past the curiosity phase. But always she would receive attention as she does things, whether its giving speeches on LGBT issues or attending something where the press is.
I don’t think there is an easy answer to your question, and I’m talking in circles after only half a cup of coffee and probably lost what questions you asked and what I was responding to. LOL I think the most important thing Caitlyn has said so far and is so simple and if applied would make this a better world. “Trans people deserve something vital, they deserve your respect,” she said. “From that respect comes a more compassionate community.”
To compare Caroline Cossey to Bruce Jenner is like saying a hyena is an adorable puppy.
Love the Caitlyn Jenner coverage on CB and looking forward to the show.
Why don’t you just go away for a while Bruce/Caiitlyn? Honestly you are just too much.I live in Palm Springs and I think I saw your son Brandon here at our baseball game. Do your children have to come here to our desert toget away from you! Please keep them there, we do not want them here in Palm Springs, nor do we want your nasty Karstrashian step children here either.
I love carrots.