Trigger warning: this post may be disturbing
A few weeks ago, Pretenders singer Chrissie Hynde made some offensive remarks while promoting her memoir, Reckless: The Life Of A Pretender. Chrissie talked about her experience as the survivor of rape by an Ohio motorcycle gang when she was 21. They had lured her under the pretense of a party, which ended up being an empty house, and things got very ugly. Chrissie’s statements (which she made to the Sunday Times) revolved around her belief that she needed to take “full responsibility” for what the group of men did to her. She didn’t really stop at talking about herself and applied the “don’t wear this” guidelines to all women. As a result, people got understandably angry.
The Washington Post called Chrissie for some followup comments, and she said her friends were very concerned about the backlash. Chrissie herself seems fine with the criticism:
On the critics: “They’re entitled to say whatever they want. Do I regret saying it? I don’t know. I haven’t really thought about it. Sounds like common sense. If you don’t want my opinion, don’t ask me for it. I would say there was an element of sexual assault, but frankly, if you go into the club house of the world’s most notorious bikers, it’s not going to be for a Bible reading.”
She still thinks it was her fault: “Most people aren’t as stupid as me. I wouldn’t expect most people to do some of the stuff I did. But then again, most people don’t get to be a rock star, either. We have to walk the plank. I don’t think that’s a sign of intelligence, I don’t know what it is a sign of. I’m not saying I was asking for it. It wasn’t the same as walking down a street in the middle of a nice evening and somebody dragging you into a bush with a knife in your throat.”
Her final say: “I’m not a philosopher. I’m just a rock singer. And now a leading authority on rape.”
[From Washington Post]
Like I said last time, it sounds like Chrissie has internalized her feelings about the rape as a coping mechanism. We shouldn’t judge how she chooses to feel about her own experience, which she’s dealt with for many decades. However, she’s still implicitly judging other rape survivors, and I’m not sure whether her “leading authority on rape” statement is sarcasm or not. Maybe so.
Photos courtesy of WENN
Steven Tyler rang – he wants his look back.
How is it that Keith Richards looks better than both of them?
I swear to god I thought it was Caitlin Jenner.
That header photo! I think it`s Caitlyn Jenner. Every. Damn. Time.
me too. The last post about Chrissie I was sure it was Cait and wasn’t going to click……….
Haha. I thought it was Keith Richards when I first glanced at the pic.
Keith does a much better job with his eyeliner.
Somebody call Alice Cooper!
When I see that pic I see Caitlyn Jenner.
OMG! every time I see that top photo, I think its Caitlyn Jenner.
Caitlyn would not be seen with grey hair!
Totally Steven Tyler in the header photo and Caitlyn in the homepage thumbnail. Second time I thought it was Caitlyn.
These aren’t great photos of her. I never thought she was that attractive, then I saw her live a few years ago and PHWOAR!! She was sex on a stick! Wearing black pants, a black vest over a singlet and biker boots she just oozed charisma and talent and it was so sexy and attractive. Saw Blondie the same day… Not so much.
As for these comments… Mostly I just feel sad for her that she blames herself and I see her as part of a generation that thought about sexual assault in a very different way. Yes, she did something I’ll-advised; but that doesn’t mean she “deserved” to be raped or that the fault doesn’t still lie with those men.
Also, she seems ignorant of the fact that most rapes do not involve a stranger in a bush. Most rapes are perpetrated by someone known to and trusted by the victim.
That campaign where women were dressed in the outfits they were wearing when they were raped was very powerful. Women are raped no matter what they are wearing or how they are acting. It is not their fault.
She’s giving perpetrators the right to rape other women with this statement. It may be internalized anger she’s directing at herself but b/c she’s a public figure, that misdirected anger might actually cause the same thing to happen to others. This is profoundly upsetting in many levels.
What does she mean, walk the plank? Rock stars must be executed? Does she mean walk the walk? What is she on about?
Maybe she meant ‘walk the line’, or ‘there’s a thin line we need to walk’, unless she sees herself as a marytr to celebrity culture. In which case: bitch please.
I don’t think she even knows what she’s talking about. She’s getting into double speak at this point.
It’s time Chrissie stops talking about this, and simply gives the “no comment” line a try.
Brain pickled by alcohol I should imagine.
I thought maybe she meant they do things most would seem outlandish or dangerous for normal folk but part of being a rock star.
I actually feel really sorry for her after reading this. I don’t know if she’s really fully dealt with what happened to her. I get the impression she might be internalizing alot of anger and turning it against herself. Just a feeling
Yes, I think you are right. She went through something horrible and this is how she is dealing with it, all those years later. I can’t but feel profoundly sad for her
She’s turned that pain into some pretty amazing art. I have always loved her and this interview makes me so sad.
She seems like she’s numb, like she’s disconnected from her own life. “I don’t know, I haven’t really thought much about it.” Over and over again. That, to me, sounds like a body with no soul, and it’s incredibly sad. I don’t even know if sad reaches the depths of how this makes me feel. It’s painful to think about, really.
yes, exactly.
Someone commented last time about how far people will go to avoid feeling powerless. I can’t remember the exact wording but in essense it was people would rather blame themselves for somethingbterrible happening than admit they were powerless in the situation. Loss of control is terrifying, and I guess for her it’s less painful to assume blame than to admit she was a powerless victim, that those men truly wished to damage her and were able to do so in the most horrible way.
I do feel sorry for her, and it pains me to see just how insiduous the roots of rape culture are.
This!
In reading the previous article and today’s, she really does seem disassociated with what happened to her. And it is very sad. Regardless of how she was dressed or how she acted, no one deserves to be raped. Ever. I wish that society would stop putting the blame on women and women should stop put the blame on themselves. It is not the woman’s fault that these pigs attacked her. The mantra should be, it is not my fault, I did nothing to deserve this, I should not be ashamed and I should in no way blame myself.
I hope she really gets help and does not continue to think that her behaviour caused the outcome. Boys will be boys does not cut it in today’s world. We know better and we have to support rape survivors, not blame them for what happened.
I wish people realized that a woman should be able to walk buck naked down a dark lonely street without the fear of being assaulted. If a woman does not want to have sex, the clothes she’s wearing or her level of inebriation is not an excuse to rape her.
Perhaps yes, knowing how there are some dangerous people are out there in this world, teach your girls how to avoid assault. But more importantly, teach your boys not to rape!
Let’s teach both our boys and girls how to avoid assault. Men get raped too. Let’s teach both not to rape.
All right then, simple edit then.
The world will be a better place if men and women were able to walk around wearing whatever they wanted, whether in broad daylight or not, intoxicated or not…and have no fear being sexually assaulted.
Teach everyone not to rape anyone.
“Teach everyone not to rape anyone.”
And there you have it.
We need to teach people not to rape? That comment is so sad. What has become of our society that we need to do that?
Yes, but more often than not it’s men raping men, so it’s like a 90% correct statement. Teach our boys to respect everybody’s right to not be sexually assaulted.
It’s not a case of teaching anyone “not to rape” it’s teaching them how to deal with whatever it is that makes them think Rape is the answer for them. Respect women… Jesus, respect yourself!! Deal with your own sexuality or powerlessness or whatever it is that drives a rapist’s mindset.
@fingerbinger, it is a sad statement, but lately it seems like people are getting away with more and more (just not rape). We seem to be losing respect for other human beings and that’s were it begins. Respect for others.
@finger binger – we need, as always, to teach people to respect others’ wishes. I would say the incidence of rape hasn’t changed much; our awareness of it and willingness to name it has.
I was reading something the other day on facebook that went along the lines of
“When you tell me to dress or act a certain way to prevent rape, what you are saying is: Make sure that he rapes the other girl. There will always be a girl who is more drunk, more vulnerable than you.”
Preventive measures against rape only cause the predator to move onto someone else. Changing rape culture is the only way to change statistics.
Edit: words are hard.
Yes that’s true. If it’s not you then it’s someone else 🙁 That’s a seriously depressing thought.
Wow that’s incredibly deep, I’m glad you made this comment because that would have never occurred to me.
Sadly that ‘other girl’ is probably someone more vulnerable who doesn’t have a stable home life.
Man, that hit a nail on it’s head didn’t it?
I haven’t ever considered it like that either but it’s true. Preventative measures are more aptly termed survival measures. Along the same lines of, “I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you.”
Wow. I had to read that quote three times. Powerful.
I also love the “But men have hormones, you can’t blame them!”
I wonder can I use that excuse when I’m on my period.
Well as ladies we are controlled by the moon and tides after all. That’s what makes us so irrational and flighty.
I personally make sure I am always close to a fainting couch, just in case. You never know when your fragile lady nerves will be struck down.
You see our hormones make us ‘irrational’. Male hormones? ‘Oh well , what was he supposed to do? There was a naked woman in front of him, how is he supposed to stop??’
No no, lady hormones are different from dude hormones. Because ours turn us into bitches while theirs are what makes them manly and passionate.
Not gonna lie, for about 4 days a month I have a hard time reigning it in. But I do. Because I’m an adult. So everyone using hormones as an excuse needs to grow the f*ck up.
WhipMyHair, fetch me my smelling salts. I’m on my cycle and feeling particularly unreasonable.
Don’t worry, men make that excuse for us. How many times when you finally have to be rude to get your point across (or maybe the first time when you polite but it’s still a turndown), you’re accused of that time of the month.
@Serenity – “I wish people realized that a woman should be able to walk buck naked down a dark lonely street without the fear of being assaulted. If a woman does not want to have sex, the clothes she’s wearing or her level of inebriation is not an excuse to rape her.”
I just had this conversation with a relative because of a rape case involving a prep school senior who raped a 16-year-old girl. He was found not guilty on all of the major charges and the jury consisted of 9 men and 3 women. No surprise there.
In my conversation with my relative, he kept saying to me, “if a woman or a young girl doesn’t plan on having sex with a guy, she should stop before things get too heavy. Men have a hard time controlling themselves when they get to a certain point of arousal.” I kept trying to make my point that men don’t get a pass today as if they’re these animalistic beings who can’t keep their d*cks in their pants because “deep down, they’re just animals.” It’s a BS excuse. What REALLY bothered me was that my relative actually said, “not every man is a gentleman.” So in other words, if you turn a guy on too much and decide you don’t want to have sex, he’s being a gentlemen by not raping you. A woman/young girl CAN and SHOULD be able to decide “this isn’t a good idea, we should stop” or “I just don’t want to” without having to fear being raped.
There are too many people, I believe men are the biggest offenders, who believe that men should be excused because they “can’t be expected to control themselves” and it’s such bullsh*t. Very disheartening to learn that people still actively support this way of thinking.
This.
It’d be nice for males to get over the virginity thing as such as admirable prize. Wasn’t that part of the whole ‘senior salute’ BS? That story was quite disturbing. The boys move on after their senior year leaving girls facing a sophomore or junior year at best with a passing regret, at worst devastation.
How awful.
Isn’t a lack of self control supposed to be a shameful thing? When did acting like a toddler become acceptable for an adult male? I get that self control can be very difficult at times, but this mindset demeans men and I wish they’d realize it. It’s exactly the same as passing off a woman’s bad mood as “she must be on her period”. Maybe we should start sneering at men who espouse this attitude. “You can’t control yourself? What are you, 5? Some man.”
Wow- your relative thinks very little about men. Let me guess- they also think men should be “in charge” but they can’t “control themselves”. What a load of BS. You can’t have your cake & eat it to. The two boys that I am raising definitely can control themselves & I’m teaching them that. These statements, and the fact that girls/women need to protect themselves from boys/men, is so sad. It shows how poorly we’ve been raising our children. There will be no pass in my house for the “I just did…..because they did….” Right now it’s about “I punched him because he……” but I say “NO! You punched him because you choose to punch him.” Now it’s fights between bothers but this lesson will help them later in life……
They absolutely should be able to but the sad fact is that while we’re working on changing the culture I’m also going to teach my two girls certain safety rules. Like don’t go alone with a boy/group of boys you don’t know, don’t drinking too much at a party, don’t leave a friend alone at a party. In an ideal world they should be able to do all of these things. For now I’m not going to rely on other parents teaching their boys to respect women and hope there are no psychopaths/criminals etc out there. In an ideal world people wouldn’t steal but I still lock my car and my house because I can’t control other people’s actions.
Yes Bostonkat, I agree with you completely. We need to teach our girls safety measures. We absolutely need to do this. Ultimately, we should aim to stop rape culture but that’s going to take some serious time. So in the meantime, teach our girls to stay safe! Always be alert! Teach them to know that there are many people out there who do not have good intentions.
I think this is going to far. Now people on here are insulting her clothing and her age. The woman is admitting she willingly participated in a potentially harmful situation. That was her opinion, she’s not Satan.
I think the “leading authority” thing was sarcasm. Other than that, I just feel sad for her.
God, just STOP. Every time you open your mouth you make it worse.
Should we all be sensible and smart? Obviously. But just because someone slips up doesn’t make it okay for them to be assaulted. There is no f**king difference between going to a party and having someone roofie your drink so that your defenses are down and are not able to give actual consent and having someone drag you into the bushes at knife point. None.
Get yourself into counseling and stop making it okay for people to be sexually assaulted. That in 2015 so many people still view rape as something people somehow bring on themselves is disgusting.
I bet she is a Cosby fan…………
I think she made her point very clearly and specific to HER own experience. Maybe the wording wasn’t appropriate on the first interview, but I think she has a point in what she’s saying about common sense.
In an IDEAL, perfect, utopia world we could go around butt naked, leave our houses and car unlocked, and our money on the table.
In the REAL world, that is simply not possible, becuase dickheads are always around the corner.
Unfortunately, we all need to be careful, even if we cannot and should not justify men/women that can’t keep their hands to themselves. It’s obviously THEIR fault, but people still need to use their heads and take responsibility for SOME situations they get themselves into – like walking alone in a bikers club house (in this case)!
Ugh. I’m sorry, but you are blaming the victim as much as she is. At the time it happened, she thought she was going to a party. She was young and naive and they gang raped her. How can you be “careful” and not get yourself into “some situations” if your world experience hasn’t shown you that these things are dangerous? When I was a freshman in college, my first week, a cute senior asked me back to his room to “listen to records.” I had gone to a small high school with 15 people in my senior class, 10 of them girls. I was flattered and thought he really wanted to go back to his room to listen to records. He was furious when I wouldn’t have sex with him, and told me to get out and said I was stupid and what did I think we were going back there for? I was lucky that was all that happened. Was that my fault? Would it have been if he raped me? How can you know something you don’t know? Once you start deciding what constitutes “common sense” and “being careful” you’re shifting the blame right back to the victim, because that’s more comfortable for some people. The rapist is responsible for the rape. Period.
She blamed herself for not thinking, not every victim – she clearly states it in this interview.
The rapist is obviously responsible for the rape, but in today’s terrifying world, where news spreads faster than ever, people have the duty to be informed. Maybe in the past we were all very naive, but everybody nowadays know that “go back to listen to records in somebody’s room” is most likely an excuse.
Listen, I think we all agree on the fact that rape is the rapist’s fault, nobody says it is not. Nobody says that we shouldn’t teach people to respect other people, starting when they are young, so that they don’t act against another person’s whish or misinterpret what they communicate sexually and whatsnot – but I also do think that we should all be REALISTIC and recognise the fact that this world is NOT SAFE and perfect, we can try and change it, true, but we need to be smart in any case, for our own good! It’s not laying blame on the victims, just being realistic about how things are in this world at this very moment in time.
You are changing her words and their meaning to suit yourself. She DOES blame everyone else who wasn’t raped by a total stranger and dressed modestly. Of course we all have to live defensively in this day and age, but that’s NOT what she’s saying. Or it’s not all she’s saying. And frankly, I’m not on board with the idea that it’s ok if she blames herself – that’s just her way of avoiding the pain of being a victim, of exercising some control in her mind over what happened. It’s not healthy and in the long run, it doesn’t work. Someday, she’s going to have to find the guts to face what happened. Maybe she has processed it this way because she went on to date one of the rapists, according to someone else on the site. I don’t know and I don’t care. Her message is sick, she is sick, and she makes me sick.
Hey GNAT, the rapist is always responsible for the rape – that’s very true. But I feel that we as women need to be be extra vigilant (which sadly often still doesn’t work) while we wait for rape culture to change (which unfortunately won’t be overnight). And if possible, we need to look out for our vulnerable sisters out there.
I have a story too from a few years back. I was with two girlfriends, both of whom were very intoxicated after a night out at the clubs. We were offered a ride back to our dorm by two guys who knew one of the other girls. On the way to the dorm, I was sitting at the back of the car with my friends, both of whom were so so drunk. I hadn’t drank a lot that night so I was just leaning back, relaxing with my eyes closed and half listening to the two guys in front. They were of a different race and I guess they didn’t realize I understood what language they were speaking in……my eyes snapped open and I broke into cold sweat. Those two were discussing seeing as how all three of us girls at the back were completely out of it, they just had to get to a secluded place and have their way with us.
Still thinking of that night and that scene makes me feel sick. I was so scared!! I shook my friends awake (didn’t really work) and just started shouting and shouting and shouting. I said I would call the cops if they didn’t stop their car right now and let us off. I still remember the guy in the passenger seat turning around and looking at me…..like he was assessing how much of a fight I could put up…..I just kept shouting and tried to look tough (in my heels and mini-skirt)……I remember thinking, I will stab you with my heels if I have to!!
We were lucky. They kicked us out their car and took off.
Afterwards I would see one of the guys around our campus a lot and I didn’t really tell people why I disliked him so so so much.
It was after that night that I became so careful and so alert about the situations I put myself in.
@Serenity
I’m glad nothing worse happened to you. But if it had, it wouldn’t have been your fault. Was that a smart move, to get in that car? No. Was it a smart move for me to turn down a darkened street in Philadelphia and realize halfway down a long block that I was passing an isolated construction site at night? No. Should I have left my front door unlocked when I went out to move my sprinkler? No. You don’t have to convince me that you need to be careful in our world. Just stop using that to blame women for being raped. You can wake up in your own bed when you’ve done everything right and be raped. You can make a bad judgment call and be raped. You can be unaware of your surroundings and be raped. You can be completely aware of your surroundings and be raped. You can be drunk in a fraternity house and be raped. You can be sober in a church and be raped. STOP PUTTING THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR RAPE ON WOMEN. Everyone knows we have to be careful. I spend my life being careful. I don’t do a lot of things I want to do or walk where I want to walk because I’m being careful. That can not and will not guarantee that I won’t be raped. THAT’S the lie – we have no control, and as long as we blame ourselves, or do this fancy dance of “of course it’s not your fault, but it was your fault,” we aren’t going to get any control. The rapist is responsible for the rape. Period.
THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES!!
GNAT”s words:
“You don’t have to convince me that you need to be careful in our world. Just stop using that to blame women for being raped. You can wake up in your own bed when you’ve done everything right and be raped. You can make a bad judgment call and be raped. You can be unaware of your surroundings and be raped. You can be completely aware of your surroundings and be raped. You can be drunk in a fraternity house and be raped. You can be sober in a church and be raped. STOP PUTTING THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR RAPE ON WOMEN. Everyone knows we have to be careful. I spend my life being careful. I don’t do a lot of things I want to do or walk where I want to walk because I’m being careful. That can not and will not guarantee that I won’t be raped. THAT’S the lie – we have no control, and as long as we blame ourselves, or do this fancy dance of “of course it’s not your fault, but it was your fault,” we aren’t going to get any control. The rapist is responsible for the rape. Period.”
**I WANT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD TO READ THESE WORDS. I LOVE THEM.
Yep. I think it might be a control thing—some women need to think that if they just make the right decisions, they won’t end up a victim. It doesn’t come from a bad place, but it does come from a very misinformed place.
As we discussed at length on the last Chrissie Hynde thread, most women are raped by someone they know and trust and the rest are usually a victim of simply bad luck. These cautionary tales of the intoxicated woman who got into a stranger’s car and ended up being raped are actually the exception to the rule. When we perpetuate this idea that women are victims of rape because of some failure on their part–a bad decision, not being careful enough, not listening to our “gut” etc–we do a huge disservice to rape victims and all women, really. Without rapists, we have no rape. It really is that simple. As a society, we have to start asking ourselves why men are raping instead of asking ourselves how did women end up being raped.
GNAT
Well said.
As just a side part. I met 1 of my best friends by getting into a discussion on Pink floyds dark side of the moon at a college coffee shop. Going back to his apartment (2 steps away from my apartment and still on campus). We have been friends ever since.
I went alone to a guys apt I just met. We hung out and had a fun time just talking and laughing. He never made even a move. Why can’t this be assumed as the norm? Why must we have to fear everyone we might be alone with might try to rape us? Regardless of how long we’ve known them. Meanwhile the guy who attacked me was considered a good friend with other friends around so it’s not the circumstances. It’s just the person and what evil they have.
Of course it is always the rapist’s fault. And no, no one should ever blame the victims. Like GNAT said, women can raped while stone cold sober in church. Of course that can happen. I wouldn’t ever put the blame on the victim whether they got raped whilst drunk in a frat party or raped in a break-in at their house. It’s never the victim’s fault.
I know everyone is saying change rape culture and I believe that yes, in the end, that is what we should strive for. Teach our boys not to rape. Teach them so that they understand that No means no and being drunk/unconscious is not consent. I look forward to the day when women can walk around at night alone without any fear of assault in our hearts.
But I also know that that day won’t be anytime soon. So in the meantime, we have to be realistic. While we wait for that change to take place, shouldn’t we be teaching girls and women to be careful and to be vigilant? It might not work (if a man wants to rape, he will rape) but sometimes, it might help. And if even one girl or woman does not have to face sexual assault because of being careful, whether it is by refusing that extra drink or getting out their pepper spray when walking alone at night….then it’s worth it.
Fran, agreed.
There is a difference between assisgning blame and acknowledging responsibility. We each have a responsibility to preserve our safety. We wear seatbelts because there are bad drivers out there. Does that mean if we get hit by someone running a red light, it is our fault for being on the road? Of course not. But is it in our own self interest to drive defensively and wear a seatbelt? Bad things happen beyond our control all the time. But as for me, I will always try to limit the likelihood for myself rather than rely on the goodness of others.
I really don’t see how you can compare an epidemic, societal problem like rape to an incident like someone running a red light.
Running a red light is a careless, foolish, impulsive decision whereas raping or sexually assaulting another human being is an intentionally malicious act that stems from a need for power and control. Rape is not an “accident”, it is a complicated and loaded act of extreme violence.
Mostly, we need to stop pretending that rape is some sort of incurable problem that we all have to live with. Until we begin to address the root cause, we cannot begin to fix it.
Sure, we’ll likely never be able to stop rape entirely but I believe we can begin to lessen the frequency of rape and sexual assault by educating boys starting in their early teens that women’s bodies are not public property. That means putting the onus directly on the potential perpetrators and NOT on the potential victims. It requires attempting to stop a problem before it starts.
In some of these comments I detect an alarming sense of resignation to a problem that can actually be minimized. It’s disheartening because rapists really do rely on people maintaining/perpetuating that apathetic attitude in order to allow them to rape. You don’t solve systemic issues by saying “bad people do bad things so we need to protect ourselves” you solve systemic issues by taking a stand against what has been historically perceived as the “norm”.
@Francesca – totally agree with you.
All this blame here, blame there, does really nothing in a day to day, practical situation.
GNAT et al., you can scream all you want about BLAME but that does not change the fact that, in the real world, you are more likely to be raped if you put yourself in a bad situation (accidentally or not) than if you try and be careful.
Shit happens, true, but I think it’s more likely for the victim to report people and not feel so guilty if they have been careful, rather than if they haven’t been (like this woman).
From a psychological point of you, feeling like having some sort of control over events helps more than just SAYING “it’s never my fault”. Try tell that to a victim.
Yes, people need to use their heads, but saying they have to take some responsibility if they are raped? NO. That right there, is victim blaming.
The only argument here is vulnerability to crime, not “causing” a crime. There is no need to call her “sad” or say “she looks like Caitlyn Jenner so bwhahaha”, that’s just sophomoric. The woman made a bad argument about susceptibility. That’s all.
I am sure her remark about being a leading authority on rape was sarcasm, as she clearly states “I don’t know” “It”s my opinion” etc. I agree with @Kaiser-I think this is the way she dealt with what sounds like a soul-killing experience in a time when the whole “Nice girls don’t get raped or play music” era. I cannot imagine what was going through her mind at that young age while being gang raped. Dear god in heaven. Somehow, she survived, went on to make some of the greatest music, and became a leader and an idol for many female musicians. So…thank you CH. And to anyone who has been raped-it is NEVER your fault.
I think a lot of victims feel like this – not just of rape but anything.
What if I took a different way home? went a little earlier? or later? wore something else? said something else?
But it’s not your fault that you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Therapy is key to help manage those feelings. Clearly she didnt get any.
Also, many women can’t separate risk from fault. Yes it’s not a good idea to go alone to a party alone and get drunk, because people can be animals. But if you do and something happens to you, it is NOT your fault. Chrissie needs therapy to understand that yes, she took a risk, but it is still her rapist’s fault for being a rapist.
Assh*le. Pretending to “take responsibility” for another person’s CRIME while being too much of a coward to face what really happened to you is your own pathetic business. Telling other women who have been raped that it’s their fault unless their assailant was a total stranger and they were dressed modestly is ignorant, cruel, and blind. I was sexually assaulted because I was naive and too worried about being polite and not causing a scene. I take responsibility for that, and I learned from it. Never again. But that did NOT mean the assault was my responsibility. That was his decision and his sick behavior, and his alone. He had no right.
Amen on all counts, GNAT. So much truth in your one paragraph.
Amen and amen. Hynde was fine – or at least valid – in talking about her own feelings about her own experience. Extrapolating from that to make her feelings the standard for everyone else is where she went straight off the rails.
Yup. I agree completely, GNAT.
Exactly. I’m sorry for what you experienced GNAT. Your response is healthy and appropriate. Chrissie (as someone pointed out upthread) sounds like she is living an unexamined life.
GNAT
I think this thread is another one you’re just going to be on a roll with. Well put.
I love Chrissie. And I get what she is saying – and she is only applying her words to herself. Thankfully she clarified that she meant she put herself in harm’s way. And frankly, some people are just animals.
Enough about her.
Once when I was in college I closed a bar down with my roommate. Just before closing I had two Long Island iced teas back to back. Went outside feeling fine and met some random dude and after a few minutes of chatting agreed to give him a ride to his hotel. Leaving my roommate behind. Got to his hotel and went inside and quickly became sh*t faced (long islands will do that) and realized I was in a hotel room with like 5 dudes (they were in town for a game or something) and all alone. I was not hurt in anyway and the guy ended driving me home because I was so wasted and got a cab back to his hotel. Not my finest hour. And if something did happen it would not have been my fault and I wouldn’t have deserved it, but I put myself in a very dangerous situation. And maybe her point is that sometimes bad things could be prevented if you act responsibly. But no matter what, no one ever deserves it or “asks” for it.
i kind of get what she’s saying…she went into a dangerous situation and the worst thing that could happen happened. But, to say she needs to take full responsibility for it? Or ANY responsibility for it? I just don’t get that. I’m all for women doing everything they can to keep themselves safe, like keeping pepper spray, not being alone with strange men, not drinking unless friends can account for you, etc, but at the end of the day, there are women that do ALL this and still get raped. There’s no guarantee. If she could just rephrase and say “we need to change the way men and society in general think. As that will take time, we need to protect ourselves in the meantime. I wish I had known that but that doesn’t make me responsible. I was a victim and the only people responsible are the rapists”.
Yes, there was a lot of her responsibility in that. Should she have gone to a biker party alone? NO! Should she have gone upstairs with a man she didn’t know? NO! Should she have trusted complete strangers to be careful with her? NO! Did she deserve it? Ask for it? HELL NO!!! But that doesn’t mean she was completely without fault.
We teach our girls all the time to travel in groups, don’t go off somewhere with boys you don’t know, never get in the car with strangers, etc.. So, yeah, she never should have gone to the party and her friend should have insisted she not go. It’s just a recipe for disaster!
she was completely without fault, period.
unless a woman asks for sex, by literally saying the words, then anyone who sexually touches her is at fault.
end of story.
She ending up dating one of the gang members who raped her that night.
It’s one thing telling young women to use common sense when out. I agree with that. I put myself in several questionable circumstances as a very young girl of 18 that could have ended badly. Alcohol was involved. But telling a young woman she can’t dress sexy or wear high heels because it encourages rape and it’s her fault is outlandish.
She talks about all of this in her new book out she is promoting.
“Hynde agreed to go to a party with the bikers, though a girlfriend who was with her “recoiled in horror” from the invitation. At the bikers run-down clubhouse, where she was led upstairs to a poorly lit room. One of them ordered her to “get your f**kin’ clothes off”. When she protested, they threatened to beat her so badly “you’ll make some plastic surgeon rich”.
They ordered her to perform sex acts on them. When she hesitated, they lit matches and threw them at her naked body. Hynde remembers that the burning matches “bounced off my rib rack and underlit their stony expressions”.
She eventually gave in to their demands. The next day, one of them — an “ugly” blond biker — drove her home, patting her on the thigh and telling her she that she wasn’t “a half bad chick”. Rather than going to the police, Hynde put the episode down to experience.
She then embarked on a brief relationship with the blond biker. On one occasion, she says, she was farmed out to his “bro” — believed to be another biker — who began beating her in “what I learned was a form of sexual foreplay”. When she complained, she says he hit her so hard that she could see white stars exploding around the room.
After moving to London she continued to associate with Hell’s Angels. One of her boyfriends was the ‘”sergeant-at-arms’ of its London chapter.”
Good Lord. And she writes all this for the world to see just how stupid she was and continues to be. I’m sad for her and angry that she has gained this public platform to ‘model’ this behavior. God. I don’t know what else to say about it.
Thank you for that. I think it explains a lot about her thought process and why she blames herself. I just wish she would shut up.
Thanks for quoting the book, that’s just…I can even imagine the blend of externals and internals and stockholm syndrome that put Chrissie in that place. I’m glad she put her story out there though because bikers are usually presented in the media at least as sort of romantic outlaws where handing out or enduring violence is a badge of honor. So much for the allure of bikers.
Oh sweet mercy. No wonder her thought processes on this is so effed up.
Annnnd we’re done here.
Obviously, Chrissie didn’t get counseling or support after what happened to her. It’s sad to hear her – a legend in the music business and role model to young, aspiring female musicians – say this. I know different times, etc., but I wonder what she would say if one of her daughters were raped? Would she tell her it was her fault? I just can’t fathom that kind of logic. I don’t care if she was high, what she was wearing, or if she was flirting with her future rapist(s) NO woman (or man) deserves to be raped. The fact that she went on to date one of the bikers who raped her blows my mind. I know psychologically there is something to that. She obviously also had (has) low self esteem.
Chrissie’s comments remind me of the Jamie Fox (The Runaways) story that I read a few months back. She was gang raped while her female bandmates watched, and no one attempted to stop it, let alone report it. Jackie suffered traumatically for decades, confiding only in her mother, and it was decades later when finally she decided to tell her story. 2 of her former bandmates have now come forward to support her, but perhaps the two most high profile members of the band – one a member of The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame – deny that it ever took place. Apparently, at least 3 members watched it happen, too. What a different world it must have been to be a female musician in the 70s. However, I know from personal experience that this kind of stuff goes on in the Entertainment Industry today. You have to wonder if fame and money are worth going through something like that.
Didn’t Helen Mirren say something similar at some point? About rape being her fault or not a big deal or something like that?
I think this is more prevalent with the older generation — coming of age pre 1980s. There wasn’t a lot of sensitivity (there isn’t a lot more now, tbh, but it’s something) surrounding sexual assault, then. If the old Harlequin romance novels my mom used to read (and that I secretly read too) are any indiction, women were hardcore blamed for their rapes. I imagine a lot of women internalized a lot of bad shit because people told them it was their fault.
It’s not a generational thing.
Between this woman and Damon Wayans I am completely sick and disgusted. I literally CANNOT. What makes this even more appalling is that there are plenty of other people out here who feel the same way.
I can relate to Chrissie, as I am from a generation and culture that put the blame on women, and am now in my mid-40’s.
From around the age of 13, I dressed and behaved provocatively. I soon learned that boys, and later, men, behaved similarly — we’d be making out, and when I said no to going “all the way”, I would then be accused of being a “cock tease” and so the guy would force it.
My provocative, hypersexual behavior was rooted in my first sexual experience, which was at age 12, when my first ever kiss resulted in penetration in a matter of minutes. I liked him. I wanted to please him. He was 19.
There was no sex ed in my school or talk by my parents so I simply thought this was how sex worked, it was normal.
That first time resulted in a pregnancy. I didn’t even know how to get pregnant. My first ever pelvic exam confirmed it at 24 weeks. The male MD told me I ought to have kept my legs closed. My mother was livid and just wanted to “get rid of it”, so she took me to Planned Parenthood, where I vomited at the door. She said I had no choice, despite sobs and protests. The female counselor shamed me into agreement. The male doctor said I was too young to be running around with boys and he didn’t want to see me again, so I left the clinic with a rx for oral contraception and a stern talking to by the recovery nurse. Everyone just assumed I was a willing participant. Not one medical professional considered anything else, no one called child welfare or the police to report a statutory rape.
So being shamed to such a degree I essentially became what I was told I was. It was my identity. Even through my late 30’s I was attracted to and attracted the type of guys who continued this dynamic. I have lost count of the number of acquaintance rapes I have experienced.
Everyone is so quick to say rape is solely about power, and it is, in part. But there are behaviors and nuances and I think Chrissie has a point, although very sadly, she continues to blame herself and has not had the therapy I hope for her sake she will seek out.
Oh, kimberly, I just want to cry and hug that little girl who was shamed and blamed for something she didn’t even understand. I’m so sorry that was your experience. I hope you see that none of this was your fault. Even if you behaved or dressed provocatively, no one had the right to rape you. It sounds like you have had therapy and are in a pretty good place, I hope. My heart goes out to you.
What GNAT said.
That’s horrible
I am so sorry that you had such a horrible experience, both the rape and how everyone around you blamed you for it. I hope that you have healed from all of this. It is really sad and maddening that your family made this worse but please realize that you don’t need anyone to validate YOUR feelings about YOUR experience. I wish you continued healing and peace.
Thank you for sharing your story, it’s pkwerful.
I said as much before in reference to someone else’s comments but if the lesson is for some girls to be ‘good’ so that the ‘other’ girls are raped then what are we saying about those other girls?
Just because they dress in a sexual manner doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing or in any mindset to accept into any physical arrangement. Many of them have been abused or taken advantage of and are just asking out what they know. I’m thankful you shared this with us.
I love your screen name, LOL!
Thanks!
Thank you Chrissie for not caving in to silly critics who think we live in some utopian universe where a woman can walk down the street buck naked and not be afraid of being sexually assaulted. We live in the REAL world, like it or not. I have nothing but admiration for Chrissie who basically gave all her critics the finger.
Yeah, all those silly critics who think rape is the rapist’s fault. You and Chrissie just keep on blaming the victims because you’re too cowardly to see that rape is out of your control, and that scares you so much you need to find a way to believe you can avoid it. Keep thinking that women get raped because of something they did wrong. Then, you will be safe in your narrow little mind. Until it happens to in broad daylight, in a safe place, while you’re wearing modest clothes. Who will you blame then?
I don’t think that is what she’s saying, GNAT. I am so sorry you had to endure such a horrible act but I think Meme is saying that a woman cannot expect to walk around in outfits and do certain things and not expect to garner some kind of unwanted or unruly attention. It’s hard enough being a woman who’s minding her own business, on her way to her car after work then gets raped in her back seat, without having to run around in super provocative clothing doing the “look at me” routine and thinking she’ll be ok. She won’t be ok. Some freak out there is going to see her as an easy target. I don’t think any girl deserves to be raped for the clothes they wear but the rapist doesn’t see it that way.
I regret being so aggressive to meme, because she has a right to express her opinion, as do you, but I just think this attitude is part of the problem. Of course you have to use common sense and do everything you can to protect yourself. But Chrissie went further than that. She “takes responsibility” for something over which she had no control – these horrible men, these pigs who made the choice, KNOWING she didn’t want to have sex with them, to force her to, because that’s what they felt entitled to. She was young and naive. They lied to her about why she was coming to that house. When they told her to strip off her clothes and she didn’t want to, they threatened her. When they told her to perform sexual acts and she tried to refuse, they threw lighted matches at her naked skin. THAT. WAS. THEIR. FAULT. I don’t care if she made a mistake, or a stupid decision. These animals did whatever they had to do to rape her. They could have hired a prostitute or found consensual sexual partners, but they chose to rape. They suffered no consequences for it, even her blame. As long as we put the woman in charge of whether or not she gets raped, we will continue to get raped. Because think about it – if we REALLY had any control over it, there would be no rape. Hold the rapists responsible. Punish them severely. Teach little boys and young men that no means no and to respect women. MEN need to change. Not women.
In my country, there has recently been two rape cases recently that have provoked national outrage. One was a 9 year old girl coming back from school, violently raped outside her house at 3 in the afternoon….the second was an 80-something old woman, raped inside her house during a break-in….
It is true, some men who want to rape will rape, no matter what the circumstances or who the victim. It is never the victim’s fault. I always tell women to be alert and vigilant in situations where rape might occur….but GNAT, I see where you’re coming from. How would a little girl coming home from school even know to be ‘alert’? Why should she? Jesus. I mean, I can’t even conceive of anyone looking at a child with such intent in their mind. And a grandmother in her own house….I can’t even say anything.
God, I hate rapists.
I can see how she may feel blame in going to a party or whatever it was with a biker gang. But she’s wrong if she takes blame for the assault itself. What does that say about how she feels about herself?
As an 18 year old a friend of mine and I were caught up in a ‘fleet week’ type event. Surrounded by horny sailors, having a few drinks, a few laughs… I knew that was it. There was no way I was going anywhere with any of them. I could see if something happened I didn’t want to happen it would be like, well what did you expect?
At this point, she would be better off just keeping her mouth shut your on this topic. No way to backpeddle out of this one.
While it is certainly not the fault of the victim, we have to know that there are lots of people who will take advantage of any weakness or vulnerabilities. In youth, I put myself in dangerous situations and am literally lucky to be alive and free of any std. I will teach my daughter everything that I can to keep her safe. I do not mean to be suspicious and afraid, but sensible to surroundings. To be cautious when with men that you don’t really know. I hear what Chrissie was trying to say. To make an analogy, refusing to acknowledge the dangers of partying with strangers is like not addressing b c issues with teens because they should not be having sex anyways..
I so agree. I think way too many girls in particular are never told how to watch out for people who might hurt them. I certainly never got enough direct lessons on people to avoid – I don’t know if it just didn’t occur to my parents, that they didn’t think I’d meet people like that – or what, but I really needed a bit more guidance. More street smarts, and not to be so trusting of every adult.
I like the analogy as well. No one is blaming victims for rape, but it’s not right NOT to let kids know about party-stranger-danger. When I work on the adolescent unit at work, I make a point to try to talk to the girls about stuff like this.
Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
My blood boils.
That is all I can say without getting ragey.
*I haz the sadz*
EDIT: Other than, Damn! I thought that was Caitlyn too…rockin’ the grey hair!! D’oh!
I must have read 30 posts on this thread alone all saying we need to teach our children not to rape. I don’t think rapists were taught to rape. It’s a menatality and i don’t beleive anything we say to our kids affects that type of mind set. It’s a disturbed psychotic mind that takes pleasure in other’s pain and helplessness. We can’t teach a future psychopath not to be a psychopath. They just are and there is nothing we can do about it. Sure, I teach my son to be respectful of females, but how can the world or even a country stop rape or stop rapists from becoming rapists? They are animals we have no control over.
if society did not sexualize and objectify women and their bodies, all of this would be a moot point. a woman could walk around naked and nobody would bat an eyelash. unconsciously our society STILL views women as sexual objects, and that is proven out in any number of posts above saying women need to be careful in how they dress and behave. wearing a pair of denim diapers and a bra and dancing on a pole does not mean anything other than that particular woman likes wearing denim diapers and a bra and dancing on a pole. are there women out there who think they are nothing more than their sexual selves? yes. because our society sexualizes and objectifies women. end that, and rape will no longer be supported in our collective unconscious. there is NOTHING different between a breast and a toe, unless you are sexualizing and objectifying. yep. that is it.
I think it’s much simpler than that. What part of “NO” do people not understand? Anything else is an excuse.
Then lock them up and throw away the key. I’m so sick of hearing someone was convicted of their fifth rape. But I think you are thinking of a serial rapists of strangers, or someone who consistently uses their power to gain control over women, like Bill Cosby – that may be something we can’t control. But what about the drunk frat brothers or the guy who won’t stop on a date or guys in the military who are intoxicated at a party and go along with the group? Are they all psychopaths? I’m not mocking you, I don’t know the answer. Maybe they are and the only “cure” is getting them off the streets. I just wonder if they were brought up with more awareness, not to objectify women as Kay says and to respect and empathize with women, and that rape is not ok, it’s not macho, it’s cowardly and wrong, maybe it could make a difference is certain situations. But instead, we coddle men, oh, it’s not their fault, hormones, boys will be boys, girls are too provocative…I say stop it. It’s their fault and they better learn that it’s not ok, because I get the feeling that this generation of women is not going to take it anymore. I hope not anyway.
So long as sayings such as “Treat a lady like a whore and a whore like a lady” persist, there’s little hope for progress.
David Letterman said that during the pre-tape warm up at his final show. It was in response to a question from the audience, which I think had something to do with what advice would he give to the new show host Stephen Colbert. Apparently the phrase is an old saying, Letterman would later say in his defense.
No matter the question, I cannot believe or fathom that this is how otherwise educated, civilized men think. I am still stunned by it.
Nope. Not all rapists are “animals”. There are plenty of men who rape because they have been conditioned by a society that tells them that women who act in a certain way or dress in a certain way are looking to have sex. Many rapists are men who were simply never taught to respect women.
What about the child who was raped by his father or the child who witnessed his stepfather rape his mother repeatedly who then grows up to repeat this cycle? Do you really think he is simply “animal”? Or is he a victim of a parent who modeled awful, unforgivable behavior to him?
What about the private school student who decided to have a non-consensual sex encounter with a high school freshman? Do you think he is an “animal” or is he a product of an institution that all but condoned the ritual defiling or a young woman?
Again, we need to get away from the idea that rapists are nefarious, uneducated, carnal men hiding in bushes, waiting to attack women who aren’t paying attention.
Rapists are: the kid next door, your Sunday school teacher, the local grocery store clerk, your HUSBAND.
Sure, rapists *can* be animals, but not all are. Many are just men who were never taught that women are to be loved and respected as their equals. For the most part, rapists are not born that way, they are created by an environment that consistently sends the message that women are *less than*, that we exist solely for men, solely for sex…that we are not valuable, that we are weak. This way of thinking is LEARNED behavior.
(just to add on to what Kay said, which was brilliantly-stated BTW)
Sorry, but as a person whose been sexually abused from early childhood to being a teenager, she is the opposite of a “lead authority on rape”. She has lots of therapy and healing to go before she can make that claim IMO. It is very offensive to hear her say it’s a woman’s fault for being scantily clad, but she is obviously indenial and has not recovered, so I do feel bad for her. It was not her fault and I hope she stops victim blaming one day. That’s a terrible message to send to other rape victims, especially young girls and boys.
I was talking with a close friend recently about Ms. Hynde’s statement and the backlash. We got to talking about how to create safe vs. fearful life. She went through some of the experiences she had in her teens and early 20s….
Running off to FL on a whim with three girlfriends from Minnesota, getting in an argument at a nightclub with her friend, and going home with a man who told her he was a model photographer. Getting drunk and falling asleep on the beach. Getting in the car with a group of young men she had just met to go to a different club.
Nothing bad ever happened to her in any of those situations, besides maybe some residual embarrassment at acting out of control.
She’s lucky. But as she says, she also had some amazing experiences because she took some risks. If something bad had happened to her, she was pretty much doing everything “wrong”–being young and pretty and tiny and vulnerable and dressed in sexy clothes.
I still think there is a difference between saying “I behaved foolishly and have had to live with what happened” and “I deserved what happened to me.”
She’s completely missing the reason why men rape. It’s not sexual, it’s power. It’s not “she was asking for it” or “I couldn’t control my hormones because she was wearing a bikini”, it’s power over the vulnerable. That’s why rape is so epidemic in war – it’s a way of exerting power over a society you want to control or annihilate. And until men learn to separate their need to exert control and power over someone from their sexual impulses, rape will continue.
No excuse for rape. Don’t get how guys can claim they have no control over their behavior once they’re aroused. Even if a woman asks a guy to stop in the middle of sex he should be able to stop. It’s not that difficult.
That last sentence is sarcasm.
Yes. That’s how I read it.