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Rose McGowan isn’t feeling this Caitlyn Jenner thing. [OMG Blog]
The husband of a 9/11 hero also isn’t feeling this Caitlyn Jenner thing. [Dlisted]
Justin Bieber wants to “top” One Direction. Cough. [ICYDK]
Amy Adams without makeup is what you would expect. [Celebslam]
Scheana Marie asks for “kindness” from fans. [Reality Tea]
Scott Disick is going to make money off of his rehab beard? [Starcasm]
Norman Reedus does have great arms. [Buzzfeed]
Fargo was sooooo good last night. [LaineyGossip]
Justin Bieber lost a friend in the Paris Attacks. [I’m Not Obsessed]
Pauley Perrette’s assailant has been charged with two felonies. [CDAN]
Lady Gaga & Tony Bennett did a Barnes & Noble ad. [The Frisky]
Duran Duran did something really nice. [Seriously OMG WTF]
Agree with Rose!
me too! Someone has the guts to say it.
It’s official. I agree with Rose G so hell must have frozen over.
Ditto
YES. She said it well.
Not only does Caitlyn not get what women go through, she doesn’t get what humans go through.
She lacks compassion and awareness about poor people and lots of others’ challenges.
+1
She put it a lot better than that Smith guy. He did come off a bit transphobic.
I’m with Rose.
I do too.
Me too. Saying what people are thinking instead of glossing over everything.
Yes but I do not agree with what she’s done to her face. I know she was in an accident and stuff but…..
She looks infinitely better than she used to tho.
I agree 100%!!
Agree!
I get where Rose is coming from, but she is attempting to make a career out of being outspoken as of late. I only wish she had an acting career that generated the same buzz as her headline-making diatribes. In the meantime, she could always be the lead in the Lifetime Biopic of Dixie Carter.
She’s got a point.
So do I. She’s right.
100% agree with Rose.
Agreed! I understand that C is/has suffered from the stigma of being trans– BUT! that does not mean she has suffered the discrimination / prejudice that comes with being raised and living as a woman. C also has the benefits of wealth privilege & white privilege her whole life.
To say she understands the struggle of women when she makes comments about have difficulty deciding what to wear, I mean come on.
Is she a great advocate for the trans community? Up to her community to decide. As a woman, do I feel she understands my struggle / can identify with me / represents me? Hell no.
while it is important to be supportive of the transcommunity, it’s true – Bruce Jenner enjoyed being a man and the privileges that come with it for decades. To suddenly come out and be celebrated for bravery….It kind of reminds me of male directors that have transitioned (like one of The Matrix directors) that land on lists of famous female directors (but no biological females are ever on the lists). It’s almost like a man becoming a woman conjures more awareness/respect/attention than the struggles of bio-females that’s been going on FOREVER, and I can’t help feel it’s because they were a man in the beginning.. Caitlyn hasn’t had to deal with ANY of the struggles of being a woman. But to speak up about that, as Rose did, is asking for stone throwing….such is the internet. People who don’t like the truth of what she is saying will call it transphobic – it’s the default accusation.
You’re saying a trans women enjoyed being a man and hiding who she was for decades is ignorant at best. Didn’t Caitlyn deal with suicide or think about it? I highly doubt hiding in the closest for years, ashamed of who you are and unable to express exactly who you are until well into your sixties is enjoying being a man and its privileges. If we want to talk about class privileges sure but speaking about how trans women benefit from male privilege is transphobic and erases one of the many layers of struggle they deal with and it’s a problem I see often in the feminist community. It’s akin to calling trans women a fraud or implying they’re not real or full women. Obviously the issue is deeper than Caitlyn but this comes up in every thread I’ve seen with her. Someone calling you out for calling a trans women a man turning into a woman isn’t people being scared of the truth it’s pointing out your own ignorance about the trans community and general transphobia.
True or false: Caitlyn Jenner enjoyed male privileges while presenting as male?
The answer is true, 100%. He may have not liked hiding his true identity on the inside of a male body – but that’s not the question. The question is, ‘did he experience male privilege?’ Answer is yes.
If you think acknowledging that is ignorant, then that’s on you.
It’s not all entirely about privileges you enjoy, it’s what society affords you.
It’s similar to race, in a way. I’m a biracial person. I come from a Native American man and a white woman. But I look white. Very few people can peg me for biracial. I pass. And that means I got white privilege. Was it in error? Maybe, because I’m not entirely white. But I pass. While a trans woman might not have “felt” male or experienced maleness as others men do, they are coded as men by society and society privileges them as long as they pass for male. It’s not about calling trans women frauds, but it is pointing out that privilege is often not something that a person goes out and cultivates or gets for themselves. It’s given – often in error. And that does affect the life experience. It’s not about attacking trans women, it’s pointing out something that does occur.
I think it fair to point out that while Bruce, Bruce/Caitlyn did not know what life as a woman was like, just as you point out that as a transgender person, very few of us could imagine what life was like for the person who was Bruce and became Caityln.
To me, there are a couple problems here. First, the award would be better entitled “person” of the year. Rose is correct that Caitlyn’s struggles are not those typical of a woman. Hers were the struggles of a person who is transgendered, and for lack of an award to acknowledge those struggles, Glamour has assumed that becoming a woman has automatically made Caitlyn somehow aware of what it means to live the life of woman. I just don’t think that is true, and I think Glamour should have created a special award to better acknowledge the unique struggle of a person trying to identify their true self. After all, this award should be just as applicable to a woman who decides to live life as a man.
But second, I continue to believe that the bestowing of awards is taking away from Caitlyn’s message – what little there has been thus far – instead of adding to it. The hardest part of being a woman is not, in fact, choosing what to wear. These comments are infuriating, and transitioning does not automatically make one a hero or immune from criticism. One can support Caitlyn’s actions while finding her true lack of substance very disheartening. I am frankly horrified at her very superficial take on transitioning. She at the very least has allowed herself to be presented as more of a cross-dresser than a person who is transitioning. I get the frustration from people who were expecting so much more substance before multiple awards were bestowed.
She’s not ignorant. She’s saying what she thinks.
Didn’t she receive a lot of endorsements as a male athlete when she won the Gold in the ’76 Olympics. I don’t know if a female decathlete would have gotten as many (do female decathletes exist?– I don’t even know since the media doesn’t seem to cover them. The female athletes I see covered more are the ones in more traditionally feminine sports like figure skating). So in that sense, I do think she has benefited from male privilege, despite what she may have been privately suffering from. Her fame and wealth she acquired as a male decathlete has probably allowed her to come out with more support than a non-famous person (either male or female) who appears on Oprah.
Bruce Jenner, as a man, enjoyed a lot of privilege. He likely recognized that, considering that he delayed his transition by a couple of decades. As Caitlyn Jenner, to a certain extent she’s insulated by the money and fame amassed in the last decade as a part of the Kardashian/Jenner juggernaut.
CROQUEMBOUCHE!
No matter what she felt on the inside CJ did *100% percent* benefit from white male privilege before her transition since the world was not “in” on her internal struggle. The world treated her as a white male which everyone can agree is the most privilege category there is. I fail to see how pointing that out is transphobic. See @Sam’s response, it explains it better than I can.
It is male privilege being bestowed by the world, not self inflicted male privilege. You didnt see it from that perspective. You’re being defensive that’s all…
As a rich white cis-gendered person, Rose McGowan herself benefits from the priviliges that come along with all of that as well. (And the 9/11 husband benefits from the privilege of being a cis-gendered male too.)
I meant to add that it may be true that Caitlynn has faced almost none of the challenges that come with being born female (except for people feeling especially justified with policing her physical appearance choices now that she’s out as a woman and has transitioned) but Rose herself has not faced the struggles of a transgender person either, and that husband hasn’t faced the struggles of being trans OR being female. It just comes off as a little entitled and privileged when cisgender people try to dictate when a transgender woman has ‘earned’ the right to call herself a woman, or that that identity means she now owes it to us cisfolk to only present an image that we’re okay with. Rose McGowan does not get to give, withhold, or revoke anyone’s ‘woman card,’ and neither does 9/11 Husband. It does seem like most feminists are less critical of transgender men in that way (although I’ve heard that some feminists consider transgender men as ‘traitors to the female sex’ for transitioning into males).
I 100% agree about the “woman card” and I think your comments have been great, but I do think that Rose has a point about Caitlyn’s comments being harmful. Wouldn’t we call out any other woman who answered a question similarly? Yes, rich white cis-gendered women benefit from plenty of privileges, but why does that negate the challenges they face? Ultimately, I think Rose should pick her battles better… this is a dumb award and it is not as if previous winners have been stellar, but I do have to ask why Caitlyn in particular has won it. It seems to have a lot to do with the success and high profile she acquired as a man, using her male privilege. Is that really the MOST fair person to be giving a woman of the year award to?
[The 9/11 husband is just a dick, though. I do think Rose has as least given us something to think about.]
Stop calling biological women “cis” women! Women are women, and transgender people can be called: female to male transition (FTM) oder male to female transition (MTF). Caitlyn Jenner is a MTF, not a woman. We should be careful not erase what we have fought for (feminism) because some (former) men tell us we should include them in our concepts. No, we don’t have to include them. Says a TERF and a SWERF.
I agree with most (if not all) of what Rose McGowan said. But again, it’s just a Glamour Award. It’s not like she won one of those elusive MTV moon men or anything.
I kind of love how outspoken she is about everything.
me too 🙂
Maybe we can nominate her to be a part time Celebitchy writer.
HA!
Right? It’s a title given every year by Glamour (A FASHION MAGAZINE for crying out loud) to celebrities like Selena Gomez, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Christina Aguilera, and Victoria Beckham, to name a few of the award’s past winners. How is Caitlynn Jenner any more of an ‘offensive’ choice than any of those others? It’s not some great award given by royalty or some esteemed politician. It’s not even a grammy or Oscar.
Caitlyn is way worse
I found a lot of what Rose was saying more than a tad transphobic as far as her choice of words talking about ‘you want to be a woman now’ as if trans people just one day decide they want to put on a dress. I have my own issues with Caitlyn after observing her naivite regarding the issues of poor minority trans women and men and sex workers as well as with her family, but I find bashing someone who’s never been able to express their feminimity until now for being in to clothes tacky. And yeah yeah that’s not all being a woman is about but I think it’s something cis women take for granted when trans women and men are attacked physically and emotionally and sexually for stuff as simple asclothes. Caitlyn has many privileges and it shows but I won’t attack how she expresses herself. I’m also not a fan of rose though so.
“…I find bashing someone who’s never been able to express their feminimity until now for being in to clothes tacky. And yeah yeah that’s not all being a woman is about but I think it’s something cis women take for granted when trans women and men are attacked physically and emotionally and sexually for stuff as simple as clothes. Caitlyn has many privileges and it shows but I won’t attack how she expresses herself.”
+1 to this (and to the rest of your comment as well.) A lot of feminist/liberal cisgendered women are so concerned about wanting themselves and other cis women to be seen as more than ‘beauty and fashion’ and so concerned about themselves and other cis women not being pressured to live up to the ‘beauty and fashion’ ideal that they feel the need to attack any transgender woman who embraces the things that are considered ‘feminine.’ There’s already unease with (and sometimes outright hostility against) trans women within some factions of feminism to begin with.
I see the exact same issues when it comes to black feminists and how they address sexuality being attacked by white cis feminists. For me it just goes to show that feminism has always been a white privileged cis female movement and not much has changed in attitude. Just look at anything by Marsha P. Johnson, Silvia Rivera or Audre Lorde and how they were often attacked or excluded from the white cis female movement. Hell we can go back to the movement beginnings and how women of color were sent to the back while moc were demonize for the white female vote.
If a person hasn’t lived the life then say that. Say “I can’t speak to all of the issues of being a woman. There are many. I’m still transitioning and learning myself.” Don’t speak for all women from the perspective of someone who’s just lived the privileged life of a rich white male for 60 years. It’s bound to insult people. And personally, I don’t think my feelings are less than hers, wherein I have to suck everything up and accept the insulting word choices just because she’s transgendered. I can have empathy for the issues yes, but don’t erase me.
This x100000000 Thank you, @claire
Why is everyone getting in such a tizzy about a glamour award? It’s not the Nobel Peace Prize, yikes.
Personally, I respect Rose and that she’s unwilling to censor herself.
Caitlyn’s joke about “the hardest thing” was a complete misfire. (Sidenote: is anyone else getting tired of all of these pesudo “humanitarian” awards being handed out as of late to the Reeses and Gwenytheses?)
I’m a guy, but I can imagine that different women face different challenges –Caitlyn included. Womanhood shouldn’t just be defined by a generally accepted criteria of struggles, and I think trans women bring new insights and expansion into what it means to be a woman. It’s to be expected that Caitlyn will say a dumb thing here and there. (Did Chaz Bono pick up any awards like this after his transition?)
That being said (anecdotally)…I have a handful of female friends who grew up in L.A., and given their stories of sexual assault and rape from an early age (and these girls grew up in Pacific Palisades), in addition to what we all generally know about the entertainment industry, I think its not hard to connect a few dots and conclude that Rose McGowan is right to be as outspoken as she is about sexism and inequality between the sexes. She’s obviously very intelligent and had to deal with a lot of dbaggery.
I agree, but it is by Glamour magazine, right? They do whatever sells, I am assuming.
As much as I dislike CNN, I like their CNN Hero initiative, where real people get nominated, not celebrities. Their stories are truly amazing and inspirational.
Blah. I have mixed feelings about Caitlyn as a person. But I’ve also deleted a few friends from FB for repeatedly posting that she can never truly be a woman and will always have male DNA and nothing will change that she’s a man.
A lot of poeple don’t actually care about Caitlyn, they’re just revealing their prejudice against transgender people in general
Exactly. And a lot of the attacks on her womanhood are coming from liberal cis women who equate trans people to folks playing dress up. Besides the usual conservative anti lgbt crowd.
It’s interesting how conservative attitudes and some radical feminist attitudes back each other up in some ways.
Presenting as a woman doesn’t make her a woman. It just doesn’t. I respect her choice, but she had no idea what a real woman is inside.
She’s lived as a man for decades. You don’t just unbecome who you are because you change your clothes and your name.
I think the emphasis here is on *process* and the word “transitioning” which implies process. It is a journey from one being to another and that takes time, care, missteps, the process of becoming. I agree with the the sentiment behind what Rose said as I’m sure she was reacting to the flippancy of someone who has only been a very privileged white woman for less than a year, surrounded by access and accolades, and has benefited from white male privilege for decades–this same person reducing womanhood to what to wear. Joke or not, it probably was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Personally, I am shocked by how much the entire K-J family looks alike, how much the new Caitlyn resembles his ex-wife and children…same plastic surgeon, i guess. I think a major issue here is that he has learned about “womanhood” from his crazy wife and daughters…so of course, he thinks it’s all about picking what to wear–isn’t that how the whole family has made their money for the past decade?
“A lot of people don’t actually care about Caitlyn, they’re just revealing their prejudice against transgender people in general.”
I think that applies to the war hero husband. Call me cynical but I don’t think he returned that award over deep ‘feminist’ concern over transgender people less privileged than Caitlyn Jenner not getting the help they need. That excuse (and name-dropping of Laverne Cox, who’s also gotten similar complaints from radical feminists over how she chooses to present herself) came after the initial post that was deleted and was probably a cover-your-ass response to the (deserved) negative reaction he got for being transphobic. He made sure to refer to Caitlyn as Bruce and a man all throughout his posts.
And I wonder if Rose McGowan would have implied that a cis-gender female celebrity didn’t deserve a glamour fashion magazine title and doesn’t get to call herself a woman until she becomes the ideal activist and stops focusing on fashion.
Just wanted to plug Taylor Swift today. I quite dislike her, but she did something very admirable and donated 25k books to the NYC school system!
From a retired H. S. librarian, Brava!
I think people were quick to elevate Jenner to the status of “role model” without looking carefully at what they were getting.
She is the same person she always was and that person is not great, and certainly not any kind of role model I would hold as an example.
@original kay, you are exactly right with this. While Caitlyn Jenner is a high profile example of a transgender woman, that is not all she is, or is not, more to the point. She has done a great service in raising awareness of the transgender community, but it is not because of her own intrinsic integrity. Male or female, we all have trials and troubles in our lives, it is not a competition as to who has it worse, and we all do the best we can. No-one gets out alive. Perhaps it is a need for us to lionise those who are true to themselves, and I am all for that. However, to do so for superficial reasons, and to be flavour of the day, is never a good idea.
Fortunately, we are all free to express an opinion in this great land, and live and let live, and do no harm are the foundations, hopefully, of a healthy society. Long may it be so.
I struggle with this constant assertion about how much she has done for the community. I guess because on various forums I read, it’s hard pressed to find someone who is transgendered that really likes her or supports her. I just keep seeing the majority opinion that the media is foisting her on people as their spokesperson or heroine and they’re not into it. It’s kinda strange how opposing these two viewpoints are from the wider public versus that community.
Yeah, I tend to agree here. I’m happy for her to feel strong enough to make this transition, and the more prominent trans folks in the media, the better for all of us to learn from. It’s up to Glamour who they’d like to give the award to, and sure why not Caitlyn, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t more worthy people out there. I think Rose has a point, but I also think this award probably isn’t worth getting that stirred up about. I hope Caitlyn educates herself on women’s issues and trans issues that face other parts of the community. Perhaps the award was a tad hasty.
Exactly – I’m supportive of anyone’s decision to transition, and while Rose may have some points about Caitlyn not living with the struggles of most women, there’s no doubt that trans people certainly face a lot of struggles themselves.
But I take issue with them giving an award to someone who seems to be a crappy person who does nothing for anyone else, and who can’t be bothered to parent their children.
word
Hear here, Original Kay’s comments and the replies^. Well said. To that, I will add, Cait’s style needs work. Since superficial seems to be her emphasis, I will remark that she dresses like an extra from the original run of Dynasty. Very costume-y and overdone. Her prerogative, but, sheesh. What was Glamour thinking?
LOL. It is kinda Dynasty-ish but I think she looks really great! The updos and her height definitely contribute to the whole DIVA look but overall, I think she has great taste (or a great stylist). It all seems event-appropriate as well.
Heart eyes Duran Duran, even after 34 years.
Heart eyes indeed.
I don’t like the idea of Caitlyn Jenner getting an award for simply “being who she is.” To me, an award is given for going above and beyond, for something you do. And in a year when we had female doctors and nurses getting Ebola while selflessly caring for infected people, with women fighting against ISIS, women, innumerable women serving as missionaries, aid workers, etc. – if just feels weird to Caitlyn Jenner an award for…what? being trans? I can totally get behind honoring a trans woman, but there are so many who do actual, you know, WORK. Janet Mock is an awesome face for the trans rights movement who does important work explaining trans issues. Cece McDonald is a trans woman who went to prison for defending herself and her friends and become a major voice for talking about violence against trans women. One of them would certainly mean more than Caitlyn Jenner.
Then again, it’s Glamour Magazine. We’re not talking about the Nobel Prize. Although I did agree that the Arthur Ashe Award was a bit of a travesty. But that’s neither here nor there.
Although, to be fair, she did have to “go above and beyond” to be who she is. But so do all trans people. And, as you point out, there are plenty of trans people who have gone on to be fantastic advocates for the community, which Caitlyn really hasn’t.
But you also kind of have to look at some of the past winners of this award: Britney Spears, Posh Spice. etc. Is Caitlynn Jenner really all that different from them?
That’s a very good point. We seriously need to take this award with a grain of salt.
That’s true – a lot of the previous recipients weren’t exactly heroic, they’re just celebrities. Lady Gaga? Selena Gomez? I think it’s getting a lot of attention this year because of the NYPD officer’s husband’s reaction. I do understand his feelings, and he wrote about his experiences as a cop helping trans teens to help explain his disappointment with Jenner, but looking over the list it’s pretty clear this isn’t a serious honor. It was when it was bestowed posthumously on his wife, but unfortunately that seems to be an anomaly.
That’s a good point – plenty of people who are less than deserving have received it. But they have, in the past, honored some decent recipients: The NYPD officer was certainly deserving. This year, they’re also honoring several female survivors of the Charleston Church Shooting. Those are fairly worthy recipients. They seem to mix generally decent choices in with people who really don’t deserve it. It’s slightly painful to see those who really deserve an award getting mixed in with those who clearly don’t.
sometimes i think TERFs are getting more and more vocal nowadays. terrible.
And they’re allowed to be more vocal under the guise that they’re somehow protecting ‘real womanhood’ and painting trans women as frauds.
@otaku fairy I cannot plis your comments enough! Your comments hit the mark every time and pointed out the subtle and not so subtle transphobia and unwilling to address it cis feminists. One of my main issues with this movement is its apparent unwillingness to actively address its issues without kid gloves when it comes to race and trans issues.
God, imagine. Females having an opinion on something! The temerity of it!
“God, imagine. Females having an opinion on something! The temerity of it! ”
Stop stop STAHP. That is so not what this is about. I’m so tired of the Swifty-like radfems who pull out the “You just don’t believe a woman should ever have an opinion on anything” card whenever bigotry within our movement is being called out by other members of our group. I doubt that any one of the predominantly female commenters here believes that a woman should never be allowed to express an opinion. Just because the person or group of people being criticized for a discriminatory attitude happens to be female doesn’t mean the criticism is about trying to keep women ‘in our place.’ Males get criticized for discriminatory attitudes just as harshly and frequently.
ok i will from now on never have any ill words about “females” like Marie Le Pen or Kim Davis because they are “females” who are just stating their opinion on something.
Otaku Fairy – don’t patronise me. Feminism is about females. Bruce Jenner is not a female. He is a grotesque parody of femininity who has enjoyed a life of unimaginable privilege. Females in mainstream feminism are no longer allowed to freely discuss their own biology, or indeed oppressions, without endless cries of ‘lesbians are bigots for not liking penises!’ or ‘the reproductive rights movement is so uterus centred’ (I know, right? Crazy.)
I’m using the word ‘female’ because ‘woman’ now appears to mean ‘anyone who doesn’t fit within an extremely narrow definition of man’.
@dbahr: No matter how deeply it vexes you, the feminist movement is not exclusive to those born with a vagina (like some old-school Donald Trump pageant). I completely agree that nobody has any business telling anyone who they ‘have’ to take as a sexual partner, so labelling somebody a ‘bigot’ or anything else based on them only wanting to have sex/be in a relationship with people with a certain set of genitals is definitely anti-feminist behavior and definitely something that should be called out. But referring to transgender people as ‘grotesque parodies of femininity’ (or ‘grotesque parodies of masculinity’) is still bigoted as well.
@Otaku Fairy – are you quite well? Do you think ISIS are raping and murdering women based on their ~identity~, rather than the fact that they were born with a vagina – something you seem to think is an irrelevant minor fact? Abortion is illegal in my country – do you think if a vagina-haver rocks up and states that, despite the vagina, they are in fact, a man, the doctor will carry it out? Is it a vagina state of mind?
Ok what does that stand for? the RF I’m guessing is radical feminist but what are the first 2?
Trans Exclusionary
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
Thanks. I didn’t realize that term existed. I thought that attitude was generally put under the radfem label.
I kind of think this is more than that, though. She isn’t denying that Caitlyn is a woman, only that she deserves an award for it. She didn’t do anything besides transition, which is of course a tremendous challenge in and of itself, but which plenty of women do an do not receive awards for. I don’t know. I was prepared to hate her statement having just read the headline, but I do think she has a point. She is receiving the award solely for becoming a woman, but what about all the people who are already women? And what about all the other people who have already transitioned and are much better advocates for the community as a whole? This is a meaningless award given to a high profile person for nothing that would be seen as particularly laudable in a low profile person.
That’s not a fair generalization. It’s really annoying that if you’re not 100% pure Caitlyn, as a person, that you’re a bigot, TERF or transphobic. This is getting to be like Israel – if you dare analyze and provide any criticism at all anywhere, you’re antisemitic. It’s just a way for people to stick their fingers in their ears, shut discussion down and pretend they’ve ‘won.’
This is not just a Caitlyn Jenner issue though. She’s not the first transgender woman to get this kind of treatment from cisgender women, she’s just getting the most widely public example of this treatment right now. When you (not necessarily YOU you) go out of your way to misgender someone (as the 9/11 hero husband did) or imply that a transgender woman has not yet ‘earned’ the right to call herself a woman (as Rose did) and make up arbitrary rules about what a transgender woman has to do to ‘prove’ she’s one of us, you are discriminating, and using feminism or ‘radical’ feminism to justify that discrimination, you’re doing exactly what a T.E.R.F. does.
Sure. Call out the misgendering and the blatant transphobic comments. But don’t lose sight of the details in discussion – labeling all criticism or questioning as bad as, or in the same family as blatant unacceptance and transphobia is not how you ever advance a discussion or an understanding. It’s destroying all context and nuances, and those things ARE important in communication.
It’s like Anita Sarkeesian. She puts out theories, and when people try to discuss, she will ignore and only point to the trolliest of troll responses she receives, and holds it up as a generalization of ALL responses she receives. This is an effective wall for her to remain blind and deaf to criticism, or for having to more than superficially discuss her theories and assertions. But it also just creates more division and IMO is creating enemies of feminism at an alarming rate.
If either of these people want my support, they have to be open to discussion and criticism. Don’t expect me to roll over and accept you as an authority.
The truth is a person who was born a physical woman and a person who transitioned to a physical woman have faced different challenges throughout their lives. I don’t think Rose is unreasonable, anti-feminist, or anti-trans for pointing this out, or for pointing out that Caitlyn was thoughtless when discussing fashion as her biggest challenge. We all know that isn’t true, and it’s perpetuating a crappy stereotype. She is skirting some sketchy language, but ultimately she is NOT saying that Caitlyn isn’t a woman. She saying that if Caitlyn is going to speak about being a woman, she needs to take the time to learn about more female experiences than her own. I think that’s fair.
Thank you, @tealily! Finally, someone speaking sense clearly here! 🙂
I think to some extent it was brave of her to transgender at this late stage of life in front of the world. If it was Joe Smow down the road, he’d be called a freak and worse. I give her credit for doing what she felt was best for her, but I wouldn’t award her for it. She says this moment in life is more rewarding than the Olympics. I liked the irritable, cranky aka Kris’ doormat Bruce much better than the egotistical Caitlyn but that’s just me. Good luck to her and all those who struggle with their identity.
Iag
I’m kind of done with Rose McGowan even though I agree with her to an extent. This is the second time that she has spoken about an issue while coming across as either transphobic or homophobic. She truly is becoming the worst messenger possible and it’s a shame that all reason and good sensibility gets lost in all of her crazy. It’s really not that hard to critique Caitlyn Jenner without taking a shot at the fact that she is a transwoman.
Glamour got what they wanted just like the ESPY awards or whatever meaningless trinket Jenner picked up this summer that had everyone up in arms. No one gave a shit about these awards but by honoring Jenner they got instant publicity.
To goose their ratings, I heard that Hollywood Foreign Press are going to name her Miss Golden Globes for the 2015 ceremony.
Kind of a bitchy thing to say, Rosie. Come on, really? She comes across as being jealous IMO. Yes, women everywhere have struggles, yes, women have a history trying to fight for rights – if anything, she should be bitching about awards like ‘most glamorous’ as a setback for women everywhere because it glorifies a specific image, but meh, to each their own – now that Caitlyn is a woman she has officially been judged by a catty woman who would rather bring her down than lift her up. Congratulations!!!
If we are talking about famous people Aung San Suu Kyi is clearly Woman of the Year.
Ditto to that. There is a woman who has overcome unthinkable adversity, and is still standing strong, and taking on the arduous task of dragging Myanmar out of the Stone Age. There really is no one, man or woman, to touch her achievements which have been forged, literally, in blood, sweat, and tears.
Indeed. She’s right up there with Nelson Mandela.
I think some of what Rose was saying was in response to the comment Caitlyn made about the hardest part about being a woman. Caitlyn answered something like ” deciding what dress and shoes to wear.” Which i know is probably a joke but it was in bad taste. Saying that the only struggle she had experienced was outfit choices demeans Trans and Bio womens day to day struggles. I don’t much care for Caitlyn beacuse i think that she still thinks like a man. Some of the answers she gives to questions come off as a man answering them. She needs to educate herself ( if she hasnt alreasy) on womens struggles. Its great the awareness she has brought to the Transgender community but she doesn’t recognize her privilege. Rose could’ve said what she said a little nicee but it is her opinion. I wish them both the best!
Actually…I think she meant it. The hardest part of being a woman for Caitlyn Jenner *is* deciding what to wear. Every single other part of her life is taken care of.
Caitlyn Jenner is a very, very, wealthy white Republican who travels from her multimillion dollar mansion to her exclusive private club. For decades now, she has lived a life of privilege and ease and has never had to worry about all the ‘little things’ (like supporting ourselves and our families) that the rest of us do every day. What challenges, other than learning how to best dress her figure, is she actually facing?
For her, “the struggle” really is about choosing which $600 pair of shoes to wear.
I mean, how else would she answer, rather than declining to answer or stating that she can’t speak for all women, which would have been smarter. She can’t adequately describe women’s issues to the fullest because she has not experienced them. The thing is, if she’s going to accept media pushing her as some sort of spokesperson, then she really should hone up on her answers.
Agreed.
I am so sick of Jenner. I personally don’t care how Jenner identifies, I really don’t. Be and do what you will. But having money for a sex change surgery does not equal woman of the year. It’s an absurd world we live in.
Having a sex change is a choice.
Many women are faced with things that they did not choose and they still deal with it.
Plus I can’t imagine a woman undergoing a sex change op and receiving a “man of the year” award for it.
Or is that waiting in store next year?
Is Jenner really the best “woman” out there because she chose to be one? Instead of all the female politicians, humanitarians, doctors, policewomen, pilots, firefighters, soldiers, abuse survivors, rape survivors, widows, refugees, etc?
And yes, “woman” because to me, what makes a woman is not her reproductive organs or breasts or hair and makeup. It’s a lot more than that. Jenner only bought the veneer.
So trans-women deal with the increase risk of violence and discrimination because of their choice? Bigots like you should be worshipping at Caitlyn jenner’s feet. She allows you to spout your bigoted nonsense under the banner of hating a Kardashian when we all know your issues are with transpeople in general.
No they’re not, but thank you for your thoughtful enlightening constructive comment.
My issue is with the person called Caitlyn Jenner. I do not like that person nor do I think she deserves any awards.
In my opinion, your sex , race, wealth or sexual prefernce do not make you a better or worse person.
If you’re black, white, gay, straight, bi, or transgender you can still be a likable/good or an unlikable/bad person.
And I’m not stupid enough to follow anyone or worship at anyone’s feet, wtf. Feel free to do just that however.
Having the sex change is a choice, the physical operation/transition; being male or female (in all its ramifications) is not a choice but who one is.
Can we be objective about having a problem with Caitlyn and not have it be some kind of problem with trans people as a whole? I mean, come on. What everyone is saying on this thread is true. Here is an individual who was courageous for finally coming out but then again, there are so many who do so at much greater cost at a much younger age and lose everything. Her path is her path but we do have a right to question her statements and to hold her to account for her privilege on every level. She has willingly accepted and reveled in a place in the spotlight. At any point, she could have said, Oh, let’s honor so and so instead, or I’d like to use this spotlight to focus on this area of need. But she is a Kardashian-Jenner. She lives for the spotlight and the attention. It’s not just about coming into her own after all these years; she is as self-absorbed as the children she has produced.
@A.Key 100%
Is bedhead still writing here?
Good question!! Is Corey our new Bedhead??
Yeah I want an update on all the writers and a Corey introduction. It’d be fun 🙂
You’re part of the problem, Rose. You’re just as protected and reckless as the person you’re calling out. You’re part of the same circus, and have been from the beginning. This is no different than any other day. Your choices are exactly the same. God forbid you aren’t written about, is what it boils down to. That matters more than anything else, so do please shut up and go away. Your contributions are unwanted, and unhelpful, which you know.
so im going to get labeled transphobic but THIS MUST….. C Jenner’s award is lame and undermines the real fight that bio-women have had to put up….. even trans women who have put more effort into just causes
Im sorry i often times still see C Jenner as a white man with white privilege spewing from that smirk to the completely ignorant-ish that she says “I believe marriage is traditional” are you serious, she identifies as a republican and understands their rhetoric……
but once I realized that she was a lousy parent man or woman to all sets of her children I pretty much couldn’t take her or him seriously as a decent human being.
and Rose is in some real aspect is quite possibly trolling for attention with her response but doesn’t negate it’s validity.
Caitlyn Jenner can absolutely speak to the experience of being a woman because she is a woman. We all experience our womanhood in different ways, and Caitlyn’s experience as a woman is not any less legitimate than mine, it’s just different. To try to deny someone the truth of their life experience because it doesn’t match up with yours is the very core of bigotry.
Wrong. Womanhood is something to be achieved and earned. I can put lipstick and high heels on a five year old little girl but it doesn’t make her a woman.
Womanhood IS something we achieve.
Caitlyn is a man
Bruce has finally found out that:
–> he only superficially wanted to be whatever his idea of a woman is
–> his soul is gender-free – our “soul” is the same whether we change our name, surgically alter our sex organs, keep our maiden name or take our spouse’s or choose to wear a dress or not.
Sad but he WAS miserable and will remain miserable no matter the shell he decides on.
I thought this was about a Time magazine honor or something equally prestigious but Glamour mag? This is as important as your grandma’s best granddaughter award, LOL.
Also Cait Jenner has the right to make self-depreciating jokes which is what I took her comment as. People offended may have just been waiting to claim a “legitimate” reason for not liking the attention she’s being receiving. Yes he has been passing as a man who deep down felt he was a woman since childhood. Most of us could never understand how painful, traumatic and horrible an experience is if we as a woman were birthed in a man’s body.
Women face diverse challenges based on their race, socioeconomic status, nationality, birth order and hundreds of other difference. We are not a monolith and I agree with the joke about the dressing mainly because how we dress seems to be used against us by men, our bosses, society and other women.
I’m confused. I read a transcript of caitlyn’s speech, where does she say that finding something to wear is the hardest part of being a woman?
This thread is an informative and interesting read.
Caitlyn shouldn’t get the award unless she earns less than her male counterparts!
If Caitlyn Jenner had nothing to do with the KK clan I bet people would not call her out as much. I really give her credit for making the transition- courage is a huge factor they can not be denied.
But she *created* the KK clan. She *is* the KK clan. You can’t divorce her from that because that’s where she comes from, who she has birthed. Everything you see with her is a direct reflection of the children she has raised and of the life she has created and the life they live. Yes, courageous transition, but she was a willing participant and creator and beneficiary of the life she lived and still lives.
It just hit me: Rose is beginning to look like she’s Helen McCrory’s long lost sister.
And with that, Caitlin has just learned the REAL hardest part of being a woman: other women.
Amen.