Lena Dunham is thankfully no longer a thing. She’s no longer the It Girl. We no longer need to have opinions on everything she says and does. Part of the “Lena is no longer a thing” situation is by her own design – she went away for a bit after people started questioning whether she was a child molester or just a dumb, self-involved, narcissistic rich girl with Special Snowflake Syndrome. I’d like to believe Lena did some growing up in that time. In any case, HBO has already announced the end of Girls (it ends next year) and perhaps Lena will fade away a bit more after that. Girls has already been thoroughly “snubbed” during several awards-nominations processes, so that’s just a bonus. Anyway, Lena has a new interview with Refinery29 and people are talking about it. You can read the full piece here. Some highlights:
Growing up: “When I started working on Girls, I was single, I lived with my parents, I was figuring out my career. I feel ready to turn my heart and soul and insides over to something else. It felt right to be turning 30 and moving into this decade with a clean slate…. Every single day, I’m spilling things down my shirt and shoes are falling out of my bag and I forgot to feed my dog and so I run back into the house and then I’m late to the other thing. There’s never a day where I feel like adulthood has seamlessly happened.”
How she feels about turning 30 this year: “Really excited. When I was turning 25, I felt this weird sense of dread, like…I no longer had a cushion or excuse [to fail], because if you’re under 25, you’re the modern equivalent of a child. Everyone I trust has reported back to me that the challenging aspects of your 20s — the sort of stuff Girls is about, actually — just evaporates into the rearview mirror in your 30s.”
How she deals with criticism: “I used to spend a lot more time than I do now trying to understand why people didn’t like me…If I get constructive criticism, I try to internalize that. But randomized hostility from segments of the population who don’t think you deserve the things you have, all you can do is just keep trying to prove that you do. I do think that when you’re young and female and you have a certain kind of success, there are a harsher — I’m not going to say that is the reason for criticism — but there is a harsher set of standards placed on you than might exist for your male counterpart. I think the reasons people dislike me might not be that I’m a girl and I have a lot to say, but it sure doesn’t help”
Feminism is respecting other women’s choices even if you disagree with them: “That statement only goes so far. It doesn’t go so far as to excuse things that I don’t think work within the historical and political definition of what feminism is. When girls say, ‘Hey, Miley Cyrus’ hot pants are not feminist.’ Maybe they are for her, and maybe they’re not for you. Part of the deal is that she wants to wear hot pants, and you want to wear slacks. The biggest things are when a girl says about another girl, ‘She’s not respecting herself sexually. She’s looking for love in all the wrong places.’ You don’t get to decide that. You don’t get to decide what a feminist looks and acts like. That said, I do reserve the right to not honor it if a woman throwing tomatoes at people outside an abortion clinic wants to call herself a feminist. I don’t have to indulge that.”
The problems of going to a chic private school: “High school was really hard for me. I have OCD, so I was totally, mentally just spinning out. I had gained a ton of weight really quickly and not grown taller at all. I had acne. I went to a chic, private school where lots of girls looked beautiful and toned and had glossy hair and Prada shoes, and that wasn’t my reality. There was a real solid moment where I was like, ‘I’m repulsive.’ I think feeling those feelings and coming out the other end, realizing I don’t have to be the prettiest person here to have value or to have say — that really stuck with me.”
Her thoughts on the popularity of “squads”: “Well, my good and beloved friend Taylor Swift is the person whose friendship spawned the squad. What I really love about it is that it’s showing that women are stronger together. It’s easy for someone to say, ‘Oh, this is glorifying an unobtainable female friendship.’ But I think what it’s really saying is, when we link arms we’re just better for it. I like that it’s a view of female friendship that doesn’t involve fighting or competition or jealousy.”
Re: feminism and Miley Cyrus. I understand what Lena is saying and the stand-alone point – that there’s a “let go and let God” aspect to feminism – is valid. But illustrating the point using Miley Cyrus and her very problematic situation? No bueno. I don’t have to indulge in Miley using black women as props. #NotMyFeminism #ItsActuallyNotAboutHotPants
There’s tons of other stuff in there, when Lena is doing her hyper-self-aware thing and endlessly describing herself. She’s thinking of starting a family soon. She’s a big Hillary Clinton supporter because “feminism.” She wants to see Bill Clinton hanging out with first ladies around the world. You know who Lena reminded me of throughout much of this interview? Gwyneth Paltrow. Seriously. There’s the same sort of “born on third base, thought she hit a triple” going on. I’m not saying Lena doesn’t work and think and occasionally move beyond her little bubble. But if you’re 29 years old and still talking about how life was rough for you at your fancy private school when all the other girls wore Prada? I’m sorry, you need to grow up.
Photos courtesy of Juco/Refinery29 and WENN.
Someone tell that to Madeleine Albright and Gloria Steinem.
Yeah, see you in hell, Madeleine.
brb finding a special place in hell.
*mic drop*
Amen.
Amen x 2. Looks like I’ll have good company in hell.
Yes!
Your life would look so much different without those two women. They spoke poorly, but they spoke out of a lifetime of fighting. That generation of feminists went through crap that we will never understand, and they see how much more has to be done. Support who you’d like, but please understand why they are frustrated.
Please. They’re my age, or my generation anyway. I was told not to be smarter than the boys or they wouldn’t like you. That my career choices were secretary, nurse or mother. That my reason for being was to look good while making other people happy. These women did some good things, but they didn’t go live in a cave afterwards. They should know better than to say to vote for a woman simply because she’s a woman. They DO know better. They just want Hillary to win, so they’re trying to emotionally black-mail other women. Shame on them.
“They just want Hillary to win, so they’re trying to emotionally black-mail other women. Shame on them.”
THIS!!! ::)))))
Agree 100%!
Yes, they want Hillary to win. Just like the Bernie Bros want their guy to win, and will say any practical thing to achieve that. But God forbid a woman try to get her candidate to win in just the same way, then they must be destroyed.
I respect and appreciate everything they’ve done, and can understand their frustration with the sexism that Hillary Clinton faces. But that’s vastly different than them now saying all women must support her because she’s a woman.
They should be fighting for her to be on an even playing field free of discrimination, not demanding people vote her into office because of her gender.
Absolutely! I’m not even saying I’m going to vote for Hillary, but the old guard is right. Sure feminism is problematic sometimes and has it’s criticisms, but so many young women these days are pretty spoiled and clueless about gender equality. They take it for granted the advantages they’ve enjoyed and don’t even begin to comprehend the struggle that won them.
Make no mistake it is a big deal to have a woman president just as it was a big deal to have a black president. Look at all the ugly blow back that came from that. IF Hillary gets the nomination I think a lot of young people are going to be surprised at the increased amount of woman bashing that’s going to start surfacing and not just because of Hillary but because it’s always been there just like the now outed American neo-racists .
Again, not saying who to vote for. But it’s important to have a realistic understanding of our current society and it’s recent history when you do vote or criticize feminists especially the old guard that put theirselves on the line for the cause.
Yes, Concerned Citizen! 1000 times. Please know your history before bashing someone who has spent her life working for the greater good for women AND men. Do not form an opinion based on random “click-bait” on FB. I think this piece nails it. Please take a moment to read.
http://observer.com/2016/02/in-defense-of-gloria-steinem-who-really-needs-no-defending/
@EOA
It helps no one when you play the victim over nothing. When have Bernie Sanders or his supporters said other Jews will go to hell if they don’t vote for him because he’s Jewish? He would have been treated just as harshly as Hillary in that situation. To say that I should vote for Hillary is fine. To say that women should support each other is great. They should. But to say that there’s a special place in hell for women who don’t support Hillary Clinton is outrageous and pathetic. I think having a woman president would be wonderful. But not if she is a dishonest, mediocre liar who calls herself a feminist while destroying the lives of her husband’s victims for daring to come forward. I wouldn’t vote for for her if I had to leave for hell tomorrow. Unless the other option is Donald Trump. Then I might vote for her but it would be because I made the decision that is mine alone, not MA’s.
I respect both of them very much, but their comments were very disappointing.
I. Love. Her. I’m sorry I do I think she’s great and I love everything she says here.
Lena talks as if Taylor invented female friendship.
THANK YOU……OMG if I hear another person talk about Taylors squad…I may have a nervous breakdown. There is actually no need of it…since the beginning of human existence people have had friends, its not NEW. Taylor didn’t invent it.
this and lets not forget that this isnt about friendship but about business. its not like Taylor quietly supports them all, no she gets them out on her tour like a circus.
i think Taylor Swift has done more damage to the perception of female friendships than making it better.
This all the way. Note that Taylor’s friendships, the ones that seemed to last were with the ‘good’ models and someone who’s a less popular singer than her.
Not saying Lena’s been cast aside but Taylor sure isn’t repping their friendship like they used to.
“i think Taylor Swift has done more damage to the perception of female friendships than making it better.”
Oh, for God’s sake, you MUST be kidding me. That’s only true for people who have an unreasonably deep hatred for Taylor Swift, which is unfortunately most people on this site.
Right? Because before that, we were all jelly haters, I suppose.
THIS! And that video didn’t do a thing to help the idea that she was all inclusive and supportive. Ugh.
Lena, you need to go with God.
Thanks Spike Lee!!!!
YES and Take Miley with you while at it!
Amen.
Nice!
I think as women’s issues have gotten more nuanced, feminism has become more confusing to me. Equal pay, reproductive rights, access to health care, and domestic violence were the big issues in my day and I felt interested in getting behind them. Third wave seems to be mostly about sex and that is less interesting to me but maybe a big issue for younger women as other problems have fallen away or become less popular? Still, have sex how you want. Good luck ladies, I’ll sit this one out.
I am likely close to you in age, but don’t see these issues as having gone away in reality. But it would have to be a matter of what the current leadership identifies and promotes as the issues at hand. And that I don’t know, because the central voices that existed for my generation – the primary leaders, Ms. magazine etc. – have aged out and things are handled in different, less centralized ways. Women on campuses are certainly protesting and organizing around violence. I’m not sure how well it’s understood that ensuring health-care access is a major women’s issue. I don’t know where I’m going with this … help!
These are still important issues! But the sex aspect, to me, is linked to reproductive rights. It’s all part of “my body, my decision.” And, there’s so much social stigma still placed on sexually liberated women. Slut shaming is real and it can be harmful, because it’s meant to make us feel ashamed of our bodies and our desires. There’s nothing shameful about sex or how any person chooses to have sex between consenting adults. In a truly equal society women won’t be punished for “having sex like men,” if that’s how a woman chooses to live her life. We should get to dress how we like without being made to feel cheap or whatever because we may or may not like miniskirts and hotpants, and we should get to have as many or as few lovers as we want, too. It’s all part and parcel of the “larger” social issues.
Well said, Algernon.
Spot on algernon.
I agree with everything you said. But there’s another aspect to all this which has to do with the male gaze. The representations of female sexuality that you see with Miley, Beyonce, JLo and other women in the public eye have to do with being able to attract and gratify men, without a reference to what women want to look at and what would gratify women sexually. That’s why I get super frustrated with all of the twerking and t*tty shaking in these videos and performances. Not because I think the women are slutty or because women’s sexual desire is shameful. But because women’s sexuality is framed within such a narrow box. That’s why I loved Magic Mike XXL so much because it was all about the female gaze and gratifying women’s sexual desires without apology or shame. And for once it was the guys shaking their butts for our benefit.
@Gatita: But something isn’t inherently bad or problematic just because men may get sexual gratification from it, and wanting to attract is not a problem as long as that ability isn’t the only thing you think gives you value as a person.
The other issue is that wanting to sexually attract others isn’t the only reason why Beyoncé, Miley, and other women dress the way they do. For many, it’s about being edgy, experimenting with the costumes and things that they like, being controversial, and rebelling against what’s considered ‘classy’ image for a woman. And I wouldn’t say that either Beyoncé or Miley Cyrus have limited their message to “Let’s be sexy just for men.” They’ve both made sexual freedom, doing what you want with your physical appearance, and pleasure big parts of their theme. That doesn’t mean that they don’t ever want to be sexy for men, it’s just not the only thing they’re about.
That’s interesting because I don’t think most feminist use or approved of “slut shaming” either. The issue to them is female self-sexploitation. The misinterpretation of feminism to justify women exploiting female sexuality and the female body even their own for commercialism and economic gain not because they truly engaged with self expression on any meaningful level but for attention, male sexual validation and money. And be honest, that’s what our commercial pop culture is all about.
@Cranberry: Some feminists do approve of the term slut-shaming, some don’t. Either way, just because you don’t approve of actresses, entertainers, and models including sexuality and nudity in movies, music videos, performances, and music that they profit off of doesn’t mean that doing so is self-exploitation. And people do it for all those reasons- attention, controversy, money, empowerment, attraction, etc. Your point? They’re consenting adults and it’s their bodies. You don’t have to dress like them or pose nude if you don’t want to, but it’s not exploitation or oppression for other women to do it.
@Otaku Fairy, I understand I don’t have to dress like them if I so choose. Sure, all women don’t have to adhere to an approved dress code, and women can dress or undress as they like it’s their right. But much of the problem with our modern pop/commercial culture is that most, if not all, of these women/girls are doing it without any awareness or appreciation of sexual empowerment and liberation.
Yes it’s hard to draw the line of what is conscious self expression and what is just the same old female exploitation that’s been around for centuries. No, maybe we can’t make rules about it. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be challenging the motivations and authenticity of women that use these tactics or teaching our young girls to recognize the difference between sexual empowerment and sex as a ploy to sell us something or condition us to objectify ourselves.
I think the main problem aside from our rabid commercial culture is that there is no real cultural discourse happening. So it all gets reduced to exploitative disregard and slut shaming.
Those are still the issues. Those are still the problems.
That’s what I was thinking. Since when did we solve any of this?
They are still issues but not in the way they used to be. Imagine being the only woman in your class at medical school. Now it’s half, or over half. Imagine abortion is illegal, or that your doctor speaks to your husband instead of you about your health, you need a your husband’s signature to open a bank account. Thats all different now! I don’t think people realize how much has changed in 2-3 generations.
Equal pay is obviously still an issue (Gillian Anderson!), there are challenges toward reproductive rights still, yes. But it’s at a different point in the spectrum.
Less than two years ago, five men voted to allow all US employers to deprive their female employees or wives and daughters of male employees access to treatment for certain women’s health problems, such as ovarian cysts or endometriosis, through their employer-offered group health plans (note “offered” NOT “fully funded”), even when the employee pays most or all of the premium if the employer objected to the treatment on religious grounds. They did so with absolutely no discussion of what those health problems were or how this would impact the women, who were actually PAYING for the health insurance and they admonished the female Justice (the Notorious RBG) for trying to discuss those health problems. Because women’s health problems = yucky! in the minds of our Supreme Court Justices.
We have made grounds but we have not come all that far.
Miley Cyrus is the wrong example to use to be honest, as an example of a woman owning her sexuality. Criticizing her isn’t criticizing a woman’s sexuality in my opinion.
Criticizing her for something else- like her using people as props- isn’t criticizing a woman’s sexuality. But the popular semi-liberal sentiment of “I don’t care if so-and-so has sex as long as she doesn’t dress/dance ‘trashy/slutty’ or pose nude; but have no pearls to clutch about Justin Beiber, Channing Tatum, Jared Leto, or any other male stripping off for the cameras,” that regularly gets directed at women is definitely criticizing a woman’s sexuality. (Translation: “I don’t mind too much if a woman is a ‘freak in the sheets’ as long as she’s a lady in the streets”.) Her argument would have been better if she had used someone else like Beyoncé instead of Miley, because Miley has a history of using black culture as an accessory for her ‘edgy’ image, but her overall argument is spot on. And Miley Cyrus and Beyoncé are hardly the only women who get slut-shamed or who were immediately dismissed as feminists for not having an Emma Watson/Lorde image.
Miley Cyrus gets criticized because she is an obnoxious, self-serving, narcissistic, spoiled brat that will do what ever it takes to get attention and sell her records. She is an empty headed, entitled sell out, and it’s alarming how many young girls identify with her which says a lot more about this generation of young women. If this is the new feminism it seems to be a feminism more about their right to be self absorbed and entitled. So is this actually feminism or rather a parasitic byproduct of feminism?
Please Lena. Just go away.
I hate to admit it but I really enjoy reading her Lenny newsletter and the same goes with the podcast “women of the hour”. I think she’s able to spark some intelligent conversations but at the same time she’s stuck in a rut of narcissism and as Kaiser said Special Snowflake Syndrome. I feel like her parents have instilled in her that anything coming from her mouth is quirky and brilliant.
YES, Brea. She is not as smart as she thinks she is.
I think your analysis is accurate.
Agreed – still so much focus on herself. Some is fine, but look at the world around you once in a while.
I think she is actually good as an aggregator and host of content, but not good at providing content herself. She recognizes when people are interesting or have thoughtful things to say while not being interesting or thoughtful herself. She would do well to recognize this in herself and allow herself to simply oversee her future endeavors, rather than be directly involved.
She’s always rubbed me wrong. I have the utmost respect toward the brave women who sacrificed their lives so that future generations of women could be in charge of their own lives. They’re heroes. Lena definition of feminism is different from mine. I also don’t consider someone who doesn’t fit in at their ritzy private school verses a women whom goes to work everyday, works her ass off, then gets paid significantly lower then her male co workers the same injustice.
i just heard her say “no male politicans are ever described as too establishment or too stiff”. its mind blowing how little she seems to follow, even republicans are accusing other republicans of those things. she can only see the world through her own narrative. thats acutally very sad.
there is also a very important point in what she says here and what was reported a while ago:
“But at an Upper East Side dinner party a few months back, Ms. Dunham expressed more conflicted feelings. She told the guests at the Park Avenue apartment of Richard Plepler, the chief executive of HBO, that she was disturbed by how, in the 1990s, the Clintons and their allies discredited women who said they had had sexual encounters with or been sexually assaulted by former President Bill Clinton.”
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/us/politics/90s-scandals-threaten-to-erode-hillary-clintons-strength-with-women.html?_r=0
So Lena is Hillary a feminist? And are you one if you are supporting someone like that? Does being a feminist include smearing the reputations of women accusing your husband of sexual assault?
“i just heard her say ‘no male politicans are ever described as too establishment or too stiff’.”
LOL. Male politicians are absolutely described in such a way. This was the best example of a double-standard she could come up with???
I agree with everyone’s description of her as a narcissist, which is a shame because she’s not unintelligent but her message gets lost in all the *ME*.
Really, I’m trying to think of a male presidential candidate in recent history who has NOT been described as “too stiff.” Bill Clinton, maybe, unless by “too stiff” you mean…oh, never mind.
LOL. I just had a brief flash of a visual that I NEVER EVER want to see again.
GNAT
iirc even Bill Clinton was considered too stiff (… personality wise). He went to play his saxophone on Arsenio’s show to remedy that image issue.
“she can only see the world through her own narrative”
This is brilliant, simple description of so, so many 20/30 somethings. Thank you I am going to steal it and use it. This issue is the elephant in the room of “the issues”; people don’t seem to get that they have to LEARN and experience the world and let that form your worldview.
She has OCD. I belive life could have been hell for her in high school. I also appreciate that someone who looks like her ( I think she is very pretty) was an it girl. When I was younger there was no one like that. An that was just a few years ago.
But I do agree, she was born and third base and thinks she hit a triple. She is also problematic and unaware of the world.
So in her universe a feminist is anyone that she’s okay with regardless of what they are doing. But the women she disagrees with she will not “honor” that with the title feminist. I really can’t imagine that they really care what she thinks.
I’m glad her show is cancelled. Hopefully she’ll just fade away into obscurity now.
That’s not at all what she said.
Ugh…now I’m defending Lena freakin’ Dunham. Ugh.
“You don’t get to decide what a feminist looks and acts like. That said, I do reserve the right to not honor it if a woman throwing tomatoes at people outside an abortion clinic wants to call herself a feminist. I don’t have to indulge that.”
Translation:
“You don’t get to decide what a feminist looks and acts like, unless she’s not down with abortion. F**k those b**ches.”
More accurate Translation: “You don’t get to decide what a feminist acts and looks like, but if you actively fight to take away women’s rights (which is totally different from just not being down with abortion and not getting one yourself)” or abuse other women for exercising that right, expect feminist criticism.”
Fixed it for ya. 🙂
What Otaku said. It’s the same as religion for me.
Believe in whatever you want, but if you try to impose your beliefs upon me or legislate your beliefs in an attempt to take my rights away, then we will have some serious problems.
Ok to be anti-abortion.
Not ok to actively fight to take away another woman’s right to make that choice for herself.
Exactly Otaku and Kitten. You don’t get to abuse other women because you disagree with their choices. That is not only not feminist, it is actually just being an a**hole, regardless of what your beliefs are. And, frankly, it scares me a little that SamiHami and Alicia don’t recognize that.
“You don’t get to abuse other women…”
Unless it’s an unborn one. In that case, abuse away.
If you’re not sentient you don’t get the rights of a sentient. The rights of a fetus should never trump the rights of a living person. I’m sure you don’t consider taking a woman off of life support to be abuse.
I’m not debating the abortion issue with anyone here. Attacking other people because they do not share your belief system makes you an asshole though. I will stand by that statement on any issue.
I think you hit the nail on the head Alicia.
Thank god she is not a thing anymore. I opened CB on my break and heaved when I saw her face. Bye bye.And don’t come back.
I s2g the next White Feminist who praises Miley Cyrus while ignoring the demeaning crap she’s done to others….I don’t have a follow up threat but I’m mad!
How can someone talk about and treat black people the way she has, while making a profit, demean little people, bash black women speaking out against racism in the press (while profiting from that too), and be bff with more than one creepy gross pedo/ abuser AND GET DEFENDED FOR BEING A WOMAN?? PLS. #notmyfeminism
“You don’t get to decide what a feminist looks and acts like.” Yet her candidate of choice has a surrogate who said women who support other candidates (who are not women) will go to a special place in hell … and are, in essence, not making the feminist choice.
So… ????
I’m glad you said that. That really made me angry. I’m less of a feminist because I’m not voting for Hillary. Give me a break.
No. You can’t say don’t have an opinion on other women’s feminism unless it’s about abortion, so you agree with me and that’s fine. I agree that one person may express their feminism in way that’s not appealing to another, or doesn’t feel feminist to another, and I’m allowed to have an opinion. I’m pro-choice, and agree that the woman protesting outside of an abortion clinic using violence is not a feminist. I don’t think prostitution is feminist, though some people do. Madeleine Albright is allowed to say I’m going to hell for not voting for Hillary and I’m allowed to say she’s an ass for saying that. You, Lena, are “not allowed” to shut down the conversation except in ways that are comfortable to you. Can’t stand her.
Perfect. Sign me up. LD is the perfect example of hipster “feminist”.
Bravo & GNAT!!!!
Absolutely on point!!!! Thank You!!!!!!
Standing O!!!!!
,,,,,,,…
What conversation is she shutting down? She is saying feminism is different things to different people, but abusing women because you don’t like the choices they make is not feminist. Do you seriously not agree with that?
I don’t consider voicing an opinion about another woman’s behavior and whether or not it’s feminist to be “abusing” her. I think whether or not objectifying yourself for record sales is feminist is a legitimate question. I happen to think live and let live with the exception of things that are degrading to women or encourage or romanticize violence against women, but if I thought it was anti-feminist to wear see through clothes or something, I would have a right to say so. Just as she has a right to believe that someone protesting abortion could never be a feminist.
Lena, I, a woman, don’t like you because you are self absorbed and obnoxious. And do you really think you would have fared better at, say, a large public high school?
A better example would be Beyoncé. She can wear a leotard every days of her life and still be a feminist. She can twerk, pole-dance and throw that ass in a circle and still believe in equal rights for both sexes. She can sing about taking her husband to Red Lobsters if he hits it right and still be a feminist. I almost barred in my mouth when Emma Watson said she can’t get behind Beyoncé’s feminism because LEOTARDS. And Annie Lennox too. What Miley wears doesn’t take away from her feminism but I wish she stops using black women as props.
But Lena is saying that Emma Watson doesn’t get to have an opinion, and I disagree with that. I think you can be overtly sexual and still be a feminist, but there are lines that you can’t cross. When I was younger, there was a Guess ad where Anna Nichole Smith was dressed in a torn slip, crying, with a bruise on her face. That’s not feminist to me. And I get to say so.
And who decides where that line is? I’m not trying to be argumentative but this idea has always really bothered me. Firstly, we have no idea who is making the rules and on what basis. Secondly, the rules are applied so arbitrarily anyway. I mean Rihanna routinely leaves her house with 98% of her naked body exposed and she is hailed for espousing feminist ideals. A different artist dances in a leotard and is accused of NOT espousing feminism in her performances. Serena Williams posing nude is feminist, Megan Fox not so much. We could go on. Its a shifting goal post. And demands that we all conform to who-knows-what or else, which smells a lot like the old patriachy to me.
Also that Anna Nicole ad sounds problematic for reasons far beyond revealing clothing or overt sexuality.
No, you should be argumentative, if that’s what you’re being. And I don’t know the answer to who gets to draw the line. Maybe I shouldn’t have a line. I can see how that feels inconsistent and patriarchal to you. I think it’s a fairly new and a really old issue at the same time, and all we can do is talk about it. To me, if it feels authentic and powerful, it’s feminist. If it feels exploitive and weak, it’s not. The Guess commercial was trying to use stereotypes about violence against women as a marketing tool – that’s not feminist to me. So, I get what you’re saying 100%, I just don’t think the answer is for me not to be allowed to ask the question without being creamed. Maybe this will help – I don’t judge something just because I’m asking about it. Well, I probably do sometimes, but in this case, I’m not judging someone’s choice, I just want the freedom to ask how can that be feminist when it makes me feel violated or exploited or angry or small? I’m not finding the best words, I know. I just didn’t like her saying “nobody can question whether it’s feminist to dance around in panties, but they can question whether it’s feminist to be anti-choice, because I question that too, so it’s cool.”
@GNAT: She’s not saying Emma doesn’t get to have an opinion, she’s saying Emma’s traditionalist feels about Beyoncé not dressing “like a lady” doesn’t determine whether or not Beyoncé gets to call herself a feminist. The feminist movement was formed within a racist, victim-blaming patriarchy. Because of that, feminists had and have a bad habit of being exclusionary, abusive, and condescending toward women who don’t fall under the category of cis, white “modest lady.” There’s a “But some women are more equal than others” problem. So while Emma has the right to have an opinion, her implying that she’s more of a True Feminist than Beyoncé because she dresses modestly (a traditional value) doesn’t help that problem.
@Otaku Fairy
I agree with what you said, but I’m just not sure that’s what she said. However, I didn’t read the whole interview, just the excerpt. It seemed to me that she was saying one shouldn’t question whether the acts of another woman were feminist, with the exception of protesting abortion. That perhaps Emma has a right to her opinion, but she shouldn’t express it. I do agree that blanket statements shouldn’t be made – she’s not a feminist because she dresses in low cut blouses – but I think it can be and should be discussed if people are trying to shape their own ideas of what feminism is. But, I do see what you mean. Maybe I have a larger problem with the fact that she makes exceptions to her own rule.
I agree Otaku.
At times I’ve felt more like Emma, wishing Beyonce, Miley, Gaga, etc didn’t sexualize their performances so much, but now I remind myself that their choices and mine don’t have to be the same, and what I need to support is the right to make that choice. It applies to a lot of regular life too – career, family, etc.
“She can sing about taking her husband to Red Lobsters if he hits it right and still be a feminist.”
Absolutely. In fact whats more feminist than those lyrics? Arent we trained that its always the other way around? Men are expected to incentivise women for sex with dinner and gifts because men love sex and women dont. Men are entitled to appreciate good sex and women should take what they are given. Beyonce is turning that crap on its head. She is incentivising HIM with a promise of dinner and a shopping trip at the mall on her “chopper”. These are exactly the kind of lyrics you would expect from male artists, even when they are married to financial equals; women who can buy their own dinners and pay for their own shopping trips.
@Lin: Perfect comment. Every word.
We’re all limited by our background and where we come from. Lena is highly intelligent, but also limited by the bubble in which she grew up. You can’t really fault her for that. She had a decent idea for a show with some very clever dialogue in the first season (which she may or may not be responsible for, though she happily takes credit for the show and all its glory). I do think she’ll have to grow as a person if she wants to continue telling appealing stories. On a side note, I always went to public school and I’m very proud of that, but I worked at an elite private school for five years. I wouldn’t want to be one of those kids for a split second. Those places are pressure cookers with all the wrong values, seriously Gossip Girl is not that far off. I can see how it would traumatize some kids, even though it may be “financially” or “socially” beneficial, those aren’t the most important or rewarding thing in life.
I think what she’s trying to say that there is a point where something’s not feminist. However, it’s not always what you (the general you) think it is and often relates to how a woman chooses how to dress and act (e.g. wearing a hajib or Beyonce and her stage costumes). Cyrus was a bad example.
As for her comments about high school – I think it’s sad, considering she is almost 30. To be fair to her, though, stuff during that time seems to stick with you (esp. if it was particularly bad) and she’s certainly not the only adult who is still fixated about that time in her life.
Feminism is respecting other women’s choices even if you disagree with them
Dear Lena-
Put this in an urgent letter to Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright and overnight courier to them ASAP because they obviously missed this memo.
I am all about feminism in all its aspects. Lena Dunham be naked all the way you want if you like it, speak about your vision of feminism all dat and everyday. I just wish you don’t speak in my name. I never felt you were representing me or a large portion of women. I wish the woman bringing light to women’s problems in the media was not you Lena.
Eh, I think exactly what she’s saying is that we are all speaking for ourselves, right?
Choosing Miley Cyrus as a feminist icon was horribly stupid because Miley only presents herself as a 21st century flag-bearer for women in order to sensationalize herself and attract attention. If she were truly compelled to be a feminist and promote a feminist agenda she’d be down in the trenches with women who deserve a hand, not parading around on stage naked and faux-m@sturbating and posing nude for the likes of pervert Terry Richardson.
And Taylor Swift didn’t invent girl squads although she acts like she did. I’ve had pretty much the same circle of dear girlfriends since grammar and high school. We’ve been there for each other on a long and at times sad ride as we suffered through bad relationships, as we lost family and friends and jobs, and celebrated with each other for all our successes. Lena acts like she and her group of celebrities created a new trend. Women have done this since time began because guess what? They couldn’t rely on men to fill that gap.
The only thing I can commiserate with her about is the hell of private girls’ schools. I suffered through 4 years (grades 5-8) after starting school life in a public school and I gotta tell you, those bitches were horrible and exactly as she describes.
a bit of a tangent, but this is a Girl Squad i can get behind:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-yazidi-sex-slaves-take-up-arms-for-mosul-fight-to-bring-our-women-home-a6865056.html
That brought tears to my eyes.
Guess what Lena, neither do you.
“it’s a view of female friendship that doesn’t involve fighting or competition or jealousy.” Whaaaa?? I thought all of Taylor’s “squad” stuff and that video were about her feud with Katy Perry. The whole thing is so junior high I could cry.
Can’t stand this entitled windbag. Go away again.
She went to ST. ANN’S for high school for crying outloud! They don’t even give the students GRADES! Give me a break, Lena.
I think she’s making a very valid point but didn’t give the best example. I don’t care about Miley licking dildos on stage while wearing weed-stamped onesies. But having her pose provocatively dressed as a slutty baby on a crib? No. That’s not alright. If Terry Richardson is criticized for that, Miley should too.
“But if you’re 29 years old and still talking about how life was rough for you at your fancy private school when all the other girls wore Prada? I’m sorry, you need to grow up.”
Maybe these are the questions she’s being asked though, and she’s just answering them?
Feminists like Lena make feminism sound really bad.
Go away.
I agree with her and don’t have a problem with what she says. I don’t feel like being the judge of whether or not a woman is or isn’t a feminist. I don’t know what’s in her brain, and even if I did I doubt I’d judge one way or the other. One of the parts of feminism, imo, is letting women decide for themselves what they want to be and how they want to be, how they want to self-identify. Just because they wear something I personally wouldn’t wear, or act in a way that wouldn’t suit me, doesn’t make them any more or less of a feminist than I am. It’s as annoying to me as people around here who constantly try to “out-Christian” everybody else. These labels are obnoxious to me. Live and let live. Miley Cyrus, Lena Dunham, Taylor Swift, et al can self-identify however they choose as can I. *shrug*
She doesn’t get to decide what a feminist looks and acts like, either.
Dearest Lena, you don’t get to decide either, darling.
When I was turning 30, I was a single mom with two young daughters. I had to find a new place to live, a new job, a new car, health insurance and a good divorce lawyer. And I did all of those things. With no help. So, pardon me if I just cannot stomach this chick and her perpetual little girl syndrome with the “forgot to feed my dog, oopsie!” Quotes. Honey, some of us had our shit together because there were no other options and people were counting on us.
it is astonishing the amount of support a war mongerer like Hillary is getting.
I don’t see where she said she got to decide what a feminist looks like? As far as having your sh!t together, just because she doesn’t have children doesn’t mean she doesn’t. It was an obvious joke, I think we all feel at times like we don’t have it together. I have two sons and I’ve been a single mom for the majority of 20 years – that doesn’t give me some kind of bragging rights over anyone else for “sh!t-togetherness.” I made it work, she obviously makes it work, but people who say they never feel like they don’t have it all together all the time – well, I don’t believe them.
Of course no one has it together all the time but this one seems to be proud of how clueless and infantile she is, and even worse, blames it on being in her 20’s. As if she will turn 30 and magically transform into a more evolved human being. Guess what, if you are a selfish, boring person in your 20’s, you will be in your 30’s, too. Do the work – not just on your career but on yourself. It’s not cute to be so caught up in yourself you can’t even handle your life. Ugh.
I agree. Further, I don’t stand for or with every woman either. I speak for me and represent me…