Back in January, we learned that English actor Joseph Fiennes had been cast as Michael Jackson in what is probably an apocryphal story about MJ, Elizabeth Taylor and Marlon Brando going on a roadtrip immediately following 9/11. Fiennes reacted to the casting backlash/outrage in real time, and he did not say the correct thing. Well, Fiennes is currently promoting his latest role in the Biblical-epic miniseries Risen, and he gave a lengthy interview to The Hollywood Reporter this week. The bulk of the interview is about Bible stuff and this miniseries, but then THR gets Fiennes on the record in greater detail about his casting as Michael Jackson. You can read the full piece here, and here are some highlights:
He wants you to know he was cast as Michael Jackso before #OscarsSoWhite blew up: “Firstly, let me preface this conversation — and it’s an important conversation I want to go into in-depth because it demands that — that I shot this last autumn, and the Internet had the information at the end of last year, for a long time. It was only in doing a little publicity that it got caught up in the whole Oscar conversation — which is a good conversation, but I think it’s a different conversation, but in the same discussion.”
It’s a comedy, and it takes place when MJ had lighter skin: “Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon is a one-off, twenty-minute comedy through Sky Arts, and it’s a fictional imagining of what might had happened if the trip had taken place. It’s based on an urban myth in Vanity Fair in 2011… it’s less about Michael; it’s almost about the three of these amazing, iconic characters and what it’s like to have that disconnect at that kind of echelon of fame. It’s sweet and actually very poignant and moving, but I got to tell you, it’s not a biopic, and it’s not Michael in his younger days. It’s Michael in his last days when, I have to say, he did look quite frankly rather differently than when we grew up with him in the ’80s or earlier. So it’s as Michael as we last remembered him and how he looks. The decision with the casting and the producers — I wrangled with it, I was confused and shocked at what might come my way, and I knew the sensitivity, especially to Michael’s fans and to Michael’s family. It doesn’t negate who he was.”
Color blind casting: “I remember seeing in the National Theatre when I started, a brilliant actress, the best of our generation, played Marilyn Monroe. I was working in the wings so I got to watch all the performances, and she was mesmerizing. It was an Arthur Miller play called After the Fall. She for me was Marilyn, without question, but because she was black, I was shocked to hear that two critics refused to come and see it because they didn’t have the imagination, and that was twenty, twenty-five years ago. From that moment, I realized how important colorblind casting was, and when I went to drama school and went through my career in theater, I’ve known nothing but colorblind casting. I think it’s essential, otherwise we wouldn’t get amazing actors to play Hamlet and even changing sex as well. It’s important because all actors bring something fresh and new. We’re looking for imagination and interpretation, and it doesn’t steal anything away from the true identity of that person. It might offer something new and fresh and funny; as long as it doesn’t become disenfranchising, racial or rude or stereotypical, then it’s the wrong place. But if it’s offering something else that’s positive in discussion, we have to entertain colorblind casting at all levels.”
A level playing field: “The thing is, the playing field is not fair right now, and that’s absolutely evident. This is quite right, why people are up in arms. I’m a full believer in making the playing field fair. When it is fair, we can have a conversation about this project and it wouldn’t cause outrage… I only want a level playing field. I think outrage is good, as long as it doesn’t get into a violent shouting match. These conversations are really important and they shape our industry. It’s vital to have them. I kind of welcome it. You can’t do this and not welcome it.”
The one thing that bugs me is that Joseph is still really hung up on race-as-skin-color rather than race-as-identity. Michael Jackson identified as a black man. He was a black man and he wanted black actors to play him. He said as much to Oprah. Even though Joseph Fiennes might have a similar skin color as Michael Jackson in 2001, that does not negate the fact that Michael Jackson’s racial identity was that of a black man. As for the rest of it… I think Fiennes is trying to be an ally, actually. He isn’t saying everything correctly – he might not have the words or understanding to say everything correctly – but he comes close to acknowledging his privilege and the privilege of being a white man in the acting world.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Didn’t Viola Davis say that what separates white actors and non-whites was oppurtunity? They rarely get the chance to make it and this is another closed door for many struggling poc actors.
I don’t hate what he said.
But most importantly, at the moment, the playing field is in no way level. And it wasn’t when he signed on…and up…for this.
-TheRealPinky
Yeah…I was prepared to get angry.
What a letdown.
He sounds very…British, doesn’t he?
Just looking at the pics of him, it’s IMPOSSIBLE for me to see how he could pull off MJ.
I’m picturing him with that horrible lady hair do, lip stain and big sunglasses.
He sounds very posh British. If you challenge a posh Brit’s privilege, they always come back with some kumbaya waffle like this. It sounds good superficially, but they really want to do is deflect you from the challenge to the privilege. Tom Hiddleston is a master at this, but with class rather than race.
Agree with Sixer here.
That ‘Awe, shucks! Don’t pick on me! I’m just a nobody, and I didn’t make the rules’ demeanor, rubs me the wrong way.
Take a stand, already. Same with Hiddles… I like him, but his constant deflecting, and vague cover-my-ass statements are exhausting.
That’s my view on colour-blind casting. As a two-way street, it’s fine as an aspiration. But as things stand currently, it should be a one-way street or you end up with the same old whitewashing.
But my perspective on it is as a Brit, and we have so many period dramas and classic literature adaptations that shut out POC without colour-blind casting, I feel a need to support it in that one direction in a UK film/TV context, at least.
Yes, the obsession with period drama shuts out black actors, But even when the BBC does contemporary drama its white actors in the lead 99% of the time. And then they do condescending stuff like Murder in paradise which does have a multi ethnic cast but where the white guy is the lead detective and his underlings are black and sort of stupid and comical.
White POSH actors in the lead most of the time! Doubleplusgood for the POC. Not!
One of the things that got me in the previous article on his defense of this casting, was calling himself a “white, middle-class guy from London”. Like, he’s all of us… anyone of us could have innocently taken this part with honorable intent, so don’t throw stones.
First off, like all these actors putting feet in mouths like overgrown babies… he has access to the internet; he travels. There’s no excuse for ignorance on this subject. To my mind, you’re on one side of the issue, or the other. Anyone making excuses can ‘go with god’.
Second…
From Wiki:
“Fiennes was born in Salisbury, Wiltshire, England, in 1970, the son of photographer Mark Fiennes and novelist Jennifer Lash. The youngest of six siblings, his elder siblings are actor Ralph Fiennes; filmmakers Sophie Fiennes and Martha Fiennes; composer Magnus Fiennes; conservationist Jacob Fiennes, his twin brother; and archaeologist Mike Emery, his foster brother. He is a third cousin to explorer Ranulph Fiennes and eighth cousin of the Prince of Wales.”
He’s middle-class?
oh Honey please Stop, it’s still Black History month, the Gods of old and the ancestors are f*ck!ng up your looks more and more every time you talk, like you are legitimately aging faster than the proverbial bag of milk and your hairline keeps yanking back… just stop saying things before your lips secede from your face bruh!
“Gods of old and the ancestors are f*ck!ng up your looks”
LOL
it’s true, you have eyes, you peep the game, is it any coincidence we are basking in it during the Glo Up that It’s Black Formation History Month?? I think not!
Ha ha..I want to take a trip through your mind, QQbeans. I bet it’s the best f*cking party up there.
But yeah, I was actually startled when I saw the header photo.
Did he always look like this? He’s looking very gerbilesque.
LMAO. QQ you are the Windex on my window screen. Life is a lot better viewed through the lens of your hilarious perspective. Thanks for the chuckles love.
You know what?
This is why I hate Rachel Dolezal (who apparently just gave birth) all that colorblind equality bullshit only works one way and of course it’s the way that benefits the race that has been in charge for centuries.
Black is something you can’t just wear and put on and dare I say no matter how good the intention you will never be able to even absorb half of what it feels like. Because so much of being black is not having the option to stop. That wherever you go people’s perception of you arrives before you say a word. That you have to fight AGAINST the stereotype to even get a “Oh she’s a good one”.
He thinks it’s well and good to play MJ because hey, close enough right, and when the movie ends he’ll go back to being a douchy white actor who probably pats himself in the back for playing such a unique role.
mm I mean following that idea, how about transgender people? They can´t be women/men? They will be never be able to absob what it means to be a women/men, because they were never born that way? I´m just asking btw.
Transgender individuals are already experiencing their life as women/men but they are experiencing it differently just as someone is still a person even if they’re born disabled.
Being black is not an identity that is present from early childhood, if you never tell a child what being black is they will never feel different from their peers but a transgender person does feel negatively about their body and the sense something is wrong from their earliest moment of self-awareness.
Being black is a set of experiences passed down through kinship and seeing how the world treats you. That is why there is no universal ‘black’ but different variations based on location, language and culture with some similarities.
There is a biological basis for people being transgender – it happens while they’re still in utero, and various factors can lead to a baby being born with a brain that skews female while their biological organs don’t reflect that. And this is something that many trans people have reported feeling aware of, even when they were very small children.
There’s no equivalent for race because it has no true biological basis.
Basically – you can be born as a boy to one male and one female biological parent and actually be a girl inside. But there is NO WAY for someone born to two white parents, to actually be black inside. The human body, genetics, what have you, they simply don’t work that way.
That’s what always pissed me off the most at that woman. Not going to bother to spell her name. She’s treating blackness like a costume, she put it on when it was convenient for her, when she saw an advantage. And who’s to say in the future she’ll won’t just take it off. That’s privilege.
It’s all well and good for Finnes to “welcome” the discussion, but if he’s still not seeing the point then the other things he says just become irrelevant.
“That wherever you go people’s perception of you arrives before you say a word. That you have to fight AGAINST the stereotype to even get a “Oh she’s a good one”.”
Agree and I understand you because it is the same with us Mexicans. People just always assume the worst of the stereotype, when in the US I’ve been asked if my relatives there are illegal immigrants, if they have been in jail, if they do drugs, etc. (to which the answer is NO!)…, but its like if we have to show them we are good people to be able just to be left alone.
That wherever you go people’s perception of you arrives before you say a word. That you have to fight AGAINST the stereotype to even get a “Oh she’s a good one”.
^This all day and twice on Sunday.
I’m West Indian and it always sets my back teeth on edge when white folks say, Oh you speak so well. You’re so articulate. Or those pissy tail Missionaries who saw my bookshelves and asked, Did you read all those books? In a tone of disbelief. Or when I’m overseas, and they hear where I’m from they get all wide-eyed.
I speak in dialect among my friends and I love my accent. I love our idioms and all the things that make the West Indian culture unique and when I speak ‘well’ it’s not because I’m trying to sound white.
/end rant
Yes, ESE! We don’t have the option of stopping because we are forever being judge or he’ll just trying to survive and succeed.
I agree with you on that last paragraph, Kaiser. Still, I wish they didn’t go through with this, at least not with his casting. He seems like a smart man, and should try to understand why this is a mistake.
so remember when there were words about Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone and how she shouldn’t because she wasn’t dark enough (or she was ‘too pretty’)…(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/zoe-saldana-nina-simone_n_1777355.html)
even a black woman can’t play a black woman if her skin isn’t right or her face is ‘prettier’ according to other people.
so that, to me, was about ‘looking the part’ (black-as-color, not black-as-identity because Zoe can identify as a black woman, but she can’t play a part without getting sh*t because people focused on ‘black-as-color’)
So for people who thought Zoe should still play Nina and screw the difference in skin tone, why can’t people accept Fiennes playing Jackson and have him somewhat accurately depict what he looked like at the time?
Why, if the actor they chose for this role ended up being black, would the audience have to look past that (knowing Jackson was lighter-skinned during the time period depicted, for whatever his reasons were, medical or not) but they shouldn’t have to look past the fact that a caucasian actor is portraying a non-caucasian person (who happened to have caucasian-like skin during the time period this event supposedly took place?)
Part of that backlash is because light skinned black women are used an “acceptable” black person in the eyes of some white people and often times darker skinned women (like Lupita or Viola) are seen as less desirable. Nina was a dark skinned woman and it was seen as an insult to cast someone light skinned to appease the “white” industry standard. This is something that plagues the black and Indian community as well.
Either way Michael was not white and he had a skin condition. He did not want to be played by a white man and its an insult that they thought this would fly.
“Part of that backlash is because light skinned black women are used an “acceptable” black person in the eyes of some white people and often times darker skinned women”
sadly, it’s not just white people. there are still issues within the black community regarding having the “right” skin & hair (the lighter skin and the straighter hair still being seen more favorably)
As for Fiennes casting prior to #OscarsSoWhite – seriously, that’s an explanation for the casting?! Even if this year’s Oscar’s got it right, it’s incredibly myopic for him to think his casting as Michael Jackson – even during his “light” post obnoxious level of plastic surgery phase of life – wasn’t something that shouldn’t raise eyebrows and be seen as inappropriate
People hated that cause if you even in passing understand the politics and the ascendancy of Nina Simone IN SPITE, not BECAUSE of the palatability of her looks you’d then understand how casting Zoe Saldana is an INJURIOUS thing to the memory of the woman, let alone her talent and capacity and THEN when we saw the pics and instead of going with her color and looks a ton of makeup and prostetics which looked like ass on top of it were used it basically added insult to the injury
YES. THANK YOU. It needed saying.
Except society has repeatedly sought to eliminate the portrayal of darker skin tones women by lightening the skin tones of the women. Then when there is a character who is purely a dark skinned woman they still can not bring it upon themselves to actually hire a woman of that skin tone but must get a lighter skinned woman and use makeup to do a meta-form of blackface.
Stop and think how many women are the same skin tkne as Viola Davis or Lupita N’Onygo in Hollywood. Now think how many are the same shade as Halle Berry, Beyonce, Kerry Washingston and etc. Funny how the scale seems to tip in one direction no?
That is why she rightfully got backlash.
It is clear from your comments that you do not get the Zoe Saldana and Nina Simone issue, does an actor have to look exactly like someone to play them not necessarily . However Nina Simone looks were an integral part of HER story. Nina was dark skinned with Afrocentric features nose/lips/hair who got sh*t all her life because people felt then that only black women who looked like Lena Horne, etc (light skin eurocentric) deserved to be upfront.
Nina was a child prodigy and despite giving a brilliant audition she was denied acceptance to a exclusive school to be classical pianist because she didn’t have the right” look” She suffered from such colorism much of her life but was defiant and unapologetic about her right to be front and center and in the spotlight as anyone else
For Hollywood to lightwash this woman in her death when she refused to to be lightwashed in her life is a slap in the face to her legacy
Agree with all the great comments on why Zoe Saldana was miscast.
In a way, it was every bit as tone deaf as the fiennes casting, namely because it took the physical representation of Nina, and dismissed it, when that was whole and parcel a part of why she faced the dismissive, racist, sexist barrage that she did.
It’s kind of like getting Kate Hudson to play Melissa McCarthy in a film. Maybe a person who actually is chubby would have better insight into that particular world view?
Also, Zoe is a Dominican American, she’s Hispanic though she obviously is part of the African diaspora.
Nina was African American, and all that that culturally entails.
In my opinion you don’t necessarily need to always stick with the same ethnic backgound – it makes good sense to give it a good college try and attempt to cast an actress that can easily access the same kind of history and travels through life.
Notable and routine exceptions are when talent intervenes, for example: James Caan was a jewish guy playing an Italian and I’m sure no one at this point can think of a better ‘Sonny Corleone.’
But Zoe is no James Caan acting wise. ..and being African American is a seminal part of Nina’s story.
@Gina,
Zoe was born in New Jersey. That makes her American. Her ancestry is obviously African, making her an African American. Her mother is from Puerto Rico and her father The Dominican Republic, but she isn’t from either of those places (New Jersey).
I was always taught that Hispanic isn’t a race, but a culture and that Latino, denotes a specific area. Her Hispanic culture should be represented, but it shouldn’t come before African (since that is a race) or American, which is where she was born. Perhaps its best expressed as ‘of Latino’ descent in her case?
I don’t like the casting of this film.
Having said that, let’s remember how huge MJ was and is. He truly transcends even his own definition of himself–people all over the world were fans and will continue to be performing his music and moves in different languages and different cultural mediums, like those prisoners (from the Phillippines was it?)
So this seems like it should be a campy and weird sort of film and I imagine it would be tricky to get the casting just so.
One of MJ’s tragedies was that he was soooo beyond and outside of any community except perhaps this weird group of icons who obviously struggled with addictions and other emotional problems that were exacerbated by extreme fame and all the moochers around you, and the knowledge of how your face would haunt pop culture like Marilyn Monroe long after you are gone.
So, if I were casting MJ for this film, I would definitely look at POC, but not just black, mixed race, Latino, Asian, even white in the hopes of finding someone to capture not only his appearance but that tragic kray-kray of his, with a bit of a comic tone to keep the movie lighter, more whimsical.
If I were casting for a mo pre traditional MJ biopic, I would look at it differently.
I’m pretty sure Michael Jackson said to Oprah that he’d want a person of color to play him in a movie because of the backlash he would receive. He had his features changed–not just his skin. And he wanted his children to have white features as well.
It’s easier to imagine Joseph playing MJ than say, Cuba Gooding OR Denzel.
Did you see the movie White Chicks? The makeup was completely unconvinving.
Black people are not trapped in their bodies forbidden to change because they were born black.
White women tan all the time and yet there is no question of their ethnicity. Asian women get nose jobs and don’t stop being Asian. Why blacks lose a little bit of their right to be black if they dare to change is insulting.
MJ never stopped identifying as a black man even as he suffered from body dismorphic disorder.
@WHD
I have said this here before but it bears repeating .MJ skin did NOT look like Fiennes or the average white person for that matter .It had an unnatural white pallor that anyone would have to wear white powdery makeup to duplicate.,so why not get a light skinned black man to play him?
In fact the caked on look of the Wayans in the movie ” White Chicks” is actually a closer look to what MJ looked like at that time.
Hmmmmm NO. He didn’t say anything wrong here but he KNOWS that the playing field isn’t even and I’m sure he also knows that MJ identified as black. So why take the role? No excuse.
That’s what I don’t get. He seems to understand the issue, yet still took this role.
As a black Dutch woman of Nigerian descent, I’m not really outraged by this casting. Fiennes isn’t the best choice though. I think that actors should be able to capture the character’s essence AND look the part, so this whole ‘identity’ thing is a bit irrelevant to me.
Again the necessity to explain. Silence truly is golden.
This
What a cluster-foo.
I don’t think he gets it, he’s just trying to do damage control at this point.
I know at least one of your savvy CB readers knows who the top notch black actress who played MM onstage was.
I am going to the larger discussion, that is, unconventional casting can bring about amazing results! From my tiny view of the “Hamilton” broadcast for the Grammy’s, I noted that Hamilton was played by a Latino man and the villain (4ever) Aaron Burr by a black man. The five plus minutes I saw made my jaw hit the ground! No wonder the play completely sold out -the actors in the main roles are amazing!
In the case of “Hamilton”, historical accuracy issues can melt away because the performance itself is so compelling the viewer becomes lost in the actor’s portrayal.
The motivation of producers should always be the best actor for that particular role-oh, if that ideal was even aspired to! It does seem that casting for plays is more creative, and that the track record of creative casting has been a successful one in the theater….
As for the Fiennes as MJ project, it sounds awful! Better left ignored!
i agree that this casting was all kinds of bad. but who could play MJ even with a ton of makeup?
i’d be curious to see what sarah jones or anna deveare smith would do with the part although neither is probably not famous enough to have been hired. i’m thinking of actresses because he was so slightly built.
brian stokes mitchell is a very talented actor but they would have probably preferred someone more known for films than stage. gian carlo esposito is the right age.
Maybe he identifies as a black man while he’s playing the role.
I totally agree. He’s seeing the issue as one of race=colour rather than seeing it as a cultural/ethnic identity that was a part of who he was as a human being.
Also, with the colour blindness comment:
I think a world where casting is colour blind is what we should all be striving for and would be amazing. HOWEVER: we are not there yet. We can’t have colour-blindness in the industry until people of every race are getting equal opportunity to audition and equal consideration.
Until then, having a white actor playing the role of a black person is stealing opportunity from black people. This is not a role where race is immaterial, so the people casting aren’t colour blind, they’re oblivious. COLOUR isn’t important, but RACE certainly is. They aren’t the same.
Here’s my opinion about the skin color thing…. I am cacausian and fair skinned, for it from my mom (can’t tan for all the money in the world). My mother has vitiligo, the same auto-immune skin condition that affected Michael Jackson. The no-pigment sploches that spread on her face and body were very noticeable. Maybe not quite as dramatic as it is for an African American, but still very noticeable. Vitiligo removes all pigment from the skin… Moles disappear, hair turns white. White people’s skin isn’t truly white any more than black people’s skin is true black–Our skin has a color…. It’s just lighter in the skin color spectrum. With vitaligo, Because there is no pigment protection in the skin from sun exposure, even 15 minutes of sun exposure on the patches can cause bad sunburn. My mom wears the highest SPF all the time, even just for driving around to do errands, plus makeup. The point of this long explanation is this: So I feel a big nope nopers nope about all this talk of “but he had white skin.” Feinnes might be the greatest actor ever; to me it does not matter. Somewhere out there are a multitude of African American actors who could portray mj in this movie; how the casting director/producers don’t see this as the worst of blackface (in a time when they should know better) is beyond me. It just feels really gross.
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