Considering all of the (manufactured) drama going down around Kim Kardashian, a lot of people think Pink made some very pointed comments yesterday, for International Women’s Day. In between posting famous quotes from famous feminist thinkers (Audre Lorde, Angelina Jolie, Janis Joplin), she posted this statement:
“Shout out to all of the women, across the world, using their brains, their strength, their work ethic, their talent, their ‘magic’ that they were born with, that only they possess. It may not ever bring you as much ‘attention’ or bank notes as using your body, your sex, your t-ts and asses, but women like you don’t need that kind of ‘attention.’ In the quiet moments, you will feel something deeper than the fleeting excitement resulting from attention, you will feel something called pride and self respect. Keep on resisting the urge to cave. You’ll never have to make silly excuses for yourself.”
I’m all for a message of empowerment through intelligence, hard work, strength and talent. But I’m also against body-policing, you know? As I said in the Kim Kardashian post, let Kim do Kim. If she – or any woman – wants to feel empowered through showing off their body and owning their sexuality, so be it. That’s their body and their business. While I’ll never stop side-eyeing Beyonce’s “FEMINIST” screen behind her stripper pole, if that’s what feminism means to her, sure, why not? Strippers can be feminists. Hookers can be feminists. P0rn stars can be feminists. Feminism is not antithetical to using one’s body or one’s sexuality to make money or get ahead in this world.
After some comments about whether or not she was throwing shade at Kim, Pink tweeted this:
Last one for the evening: you are all entitled to your opinions and feelings and I am open to hear all of it. But it won't change my mind
— P!nk (@Pink) March 9, 2016
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I’ve said it before, but I wish I had had a role model like Pink when I was growing-up in the ’70s.
I’m learning from her now, though.
Agreed. And she is right. Sure, it is Kim’s body and she can do what she wants. But don’t do it under the guise of “feminism.” It’s all attention seeking. Nothing more and nothing less. I doubt Kim can even spell feminism.
I think it was also aimed at teens. I felt like pink was stating there is more than posing naked on social media for validation or success.
This so much! Our bodies are our’s to do with as we please, but let’s not pretend that using our bodies to get what we want is anything other than what it is and it surely isn’t feminism. Kim has the right to bare it all if she wants to, but don’t try to sell me it’s feminism in any way shape or form. It in fact, holds true feminism back by perpetuating the idea that women are merely sexual objects. It matters not who is objectifying the female body whether it be a man, a boss, or even ourselves. Objectifying is objectifying. If you’re cool with that – good on you, but feminism it is not other than the element of having the right to do it if you want to.
@ Aussie — or getting pregnant at 16 to get a on a reality show.
@JenniferJustice: But none of the women who are feminists that reject being ladylike/’classy’/conservative with their bodies and sexuality go around telling other women that they can’t call themselves feminists unless the flaunt their bodies, so I don’t know why you and others think that just by doing what they want with their bodies and calling themselves feminists, they must be saying “This IS feminism.” If anything, it’s the “Dress and act like a lady/save it for a private relationship” crowd that acts as if avoiding being sexy/immodest in public IS feminism.
Also, sexiness/immodesty and objectification are not automatically the same thing.
I didn’t say women who are promoscuous are telling all other women that they must too or they aren’t feminists. I’m saying if women want to flaunt their bodies for gain, it is not only inaccurate to do so under the guise of feminism, but it actually hurts feminism because we’re trying to be viewed and treated equal while others are willing to get what they want the easy way which perpetuates the male perception that we are sexual objects. You can’t objectify your body and claim feminism. IMO it is a contradiction in terms. I do not walk around in granny gowns or dare not show any skin. In fact, I prefer my clothes tailored and I’m proud of my body. But that’s not the same as using my body for gain. I agree with you that sexiness and objectification are not automatically the same thing, but we’re talking about Kim K and everything she does is for financial gain and attention. IMO she has no shame and will stoop to any means possible for it. Same with Miley Cyrus. They both definitely objectify themselves for gain and do so under the guise of feminism. I find it hypocritical.
@Jennifer Justice: A person is not ‘objectifying themselves’ just by posing naked/semi-nude or by being a performer, an actor, actress, or model who got paid for a photoshoot, music video, performance, TV role, or movie role that they were naked, semi-nude, or sexual in. Real objectification is when a person is dehumanized- literally being treated as an object instead of a person. It’s not a matter of “This person accepted money for/ did for free pictures, films, or performances that I found overly revealing, openly sexual, or raunchy, so they’ve ‘objectified themselves.’
And ‘profiting off of one’s body’ (gee, that sounds like being an athlete, a model, a stunt double, a construction worker, or any other form of work where one uses their body as part of a job) doesn’t go against the idea that people should all have equal rights regardless of gender, race, sexuality, physical appearance, or ethnicity, so it’s not anti-feminist or hypocritical for an adult to identify as a feminist and profit off of their body. Being forced or pushed to do something is anti-feminist, and being treated unequally for being a woman who did or didn’t do something is anti-feminist, but in and of themselves immodesty, profiting off of one’s body, modesty, marriage, sex, being submissive to one’s husband (a choice I remember you defending), celibacy, casual sex, motherhood, make-up, or being a stay at-home mom are not ‘antifeminist’ or hypocritical choices for people fighting for equality to make. And you’re right, those choices also aren’t “Feminism” (who ever even says that they are feminism?) but those choices being taken away, people who make those decisions being excluded from the movement by other women, or those people being blamed for oppression IS anti-feminist.
@JenniferJustice, I’ve been thinking about this a lot today with all of the Kim K nude selfie coverage BUT, and I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, isn’t capitalising on the inevitable objectification of your own body a form of feminism? I mean the obsession with a nude female is nothing new, some of the earliest art forms were stone carvings of a naked female body, the obsession and fetishism of the female form is as old as humanity itself. It’s not anything we’re going to shake any time soon. Organised religion pushed the idea that there is practically a currency surrounding female sexuality, our modesty added to a woman’s value.
Is there anything truly wrong with reclaiming female sexuality for our own gain? The idea of a woman’s virtue being tied up in her modesty, who is perpetuating that idea and why is that concept being handed to us as feminism? Women who are highly sexual are undermined (slut shamed) for ‘objectifying’ themselves and subjected to torrents of abuse from unflattering opinions to flat out assault because society doesn’t deem us worthy of being in control of their own sexuality.
So as dumb and unappealing as she is, Kim K has every right to identify as a feminist even if she is choosing to represent that with her thirsty need to be a sex object because ultimately feminism boils down to the right to choose. You get to choose how to live your life and what feminism means to you and so does she. It doesn’t mean we have to agree or all follow the same format (*deletes nude selfies*) but I can see where she and any other woman that flouts their body for gain and feminism is coming from.
Side note: I honest to goodness want to punch myself in the face for having a Kardashian really make me ponder feminism.
Agreed. You can do what you whatever you want with your body, but you should be aware that you participate in an anti-femimist concept if you sell/show off your body.
A person (regardless of gender or anything else) is not “participating in an anti-feminist concept” by profiting off of their body or by showing off their body because feminism is not about modesty, ‘classiness’, and dress codes. It’s about equality.
i think of feminism as coming from a deep sense of female empowerment and equality. A woman CAN be rooted in that empowered sense of self and CHOOSE to show her body – sure. A pattern of exhibitionism that is rooted in an insecure need for validation, though, that’s different. That’s not female empowerment.
those two motives FEEL very different as you watch someone. WHAT THEY DO may not be different – but where they are coming from makes a big difference in the way they come across.
@Anne: I think a person can be empowered by doing something and still want to flaunt whatever that thing is/want other people to know it and see it. For celebrities, self-promotion, crafting a certain image, and money are often a factor in anything public but I don’t think those factors keep something from being empowering. For example, Lena Dunham and Amy Schumer can profit off of a nude/ semi-nude photoshoot and have that as part of the body-positivity image they put forward and still also be empowered by doing those photos in a society that says that women who aren’t a size 0 or 2 need to put it away.
I disagree. I’m noot saying that feminism is like modesty or classiness. People are different, there are certainly women who like to wear less and flaunt their body. But they should be aware that most of the situations are reduced to the fact that the main point is to please men. And Amy Schumer and Lena Dunham are just a reflection of the pressure society/men put on women to look a certain way. There’s more pressure on men by now, but that doesn’t change the fact that women show their bodys or hide their bodys related to what men want and demand.
Miley Cyrus for example thinks she’s helping to free the female body, but she is actually just selling her music with her body and participating in the male driven music business. Sex sells.
If feminism can be about anything that’s valid to us, why CAN’T it be about modesty, classiness and dress codes? I’m not necessarily for any of those things, but if it’s about choice and completely open to interpretation… it’s about whatever anyone thinks it’s about, right? Except for those people who are just wrong or stupid; it’s definitely not about what those people say it’s about.
I’m pleasantly surprised by P!nk’s comments. I don’t think that what she was saying was “body-policing”. I found her message very positive and empowering and it makes me ‘rethink P!nk’.
“Rethink” her? Why?
I love Pink but I wish she had stopped after the first sentence. It comes across as a moral judgment after that…
But meh, her opinion, you know?
Sometimes in life, if you have a conscience, you find yourself in a position to make moral judgments.
Um, sure…but that’s obvious, no? I’m not questioning her ability to make a moral judgment, I’m questioning how she’s applying her moral judgment.
It’s not particularly fair to insinuate that women dressing in a provocative way means that they automatically aren’t intelligent, thoughtful human beings. You actually can be both of those things at the same time–they’re not mutually exclusive.
As I said, I love Pink but wish she had been a tad more open-minded here.
There is so much more to being a female than posting buck naked pis of your self on social media. I don’t think pink or anyone is saying that women who wear provocative clothing or pose nude are dumb or lacking in intelligents. I perceived it to be a message about how women are capable of greatness in different ways.
@ Aussie Girl-I hear ya. I think I would have been more apt to interpret her comment that way if she didn’t have a history of talking sh*t about women who dress provocatively, you know? I have mixed feelings because I like and respect Pink so much…but you know, she has a habit of talking down to women who choose to show their skin. I don’t know. I’m on the fence.
Kitten I’ve had to think back hard (& it’s late here ), but I do recall her taking the piss out of Jessica Simpsons and others in film clips. So I do see where you are coming from and why you are on the fence & cats do like to walk along the fence…. Ok bad joke. I suppose for me, it gets hard to draw the line. Women should wear and to what they want verse’s an over saturated sexualisation of women in social/(the)media.
@Heather: Making moral judgments about women who don’t keep their bodies covered/refrain from trying to look sexy doesn’t automatically prove that someone has a conscience or is more moral than other people. It more likely just means that they’ve internalized the same sexist, victim-blaming beliefs they’ve been taught by their ancestors, societies, and religions- no matter how liberal or atheist they claim to be. None of us are immune.
@Aussie: I agree that there’s more to being a woman than showing skin, just like there is more to being a woman than dressing ‘classy’, getting married, wearing makeup, saving sex for marriage/ a serious relationship, or having sex period. But just like with all those other decisions, I don’t think each and every one of us as women needs to avoid doing or promoting any of those things in order to ‘prove’ to other people that there’s more to us than that.
Cute joke actually. I agree 100% with what you say here. It is a fine line. I guess ultimately, to me it’s fair to have people like Pink balancing out the KKs, you know?
Kitten, I completely agree. I LOVE Pink, she’s one of the rare pop stars I listen to, but this doesn’t sit well with me. Someone’s morality and intelligence are not correlated to the amount of skin they show.
Empowerment comes in different forms for different women. Did Kim do this to make some grand feminist statement? Of course not. She did it for attention. We know that, Pink knows that, everyone knows that. But she has the right to do it and not be shamed for it. That is the empowering part.
Moral judgments should and will happen in the world. I don’t think anyone would think much of my parenting if I didn’t impart morality on my child. There IS right and wrong in the world…period.
Katie, you say that moral judgments should happen. Well, then, in your opinion, who gets to decide what is moral and what isn’t? Sexuality is a personal choice, not a matter of macro morality.
Hello @Kitten – when I said “rethink P!nk”, I really didn’t mean anything very significant at all; I just dashed it off quickly probably because it rhymes. All I meant was, I will have to pay more attention to her in future, as I’ve never really known that much about her.
What’s so empowering and positive about being a hypocrite with a virgin-whore complex? She’s basically separating women women into two categories: women who are ‘modest’ and have intelligence, talent, strength, depth, and ‘magic’, and women who lack those things because they aren’t modest. It’s a false dichotomy. She’s also relying on the old stereotype that women who ‘cover up’ must have self-respect, and women who don’t must not have self-respect. Pink isn’t sending an empowering message of “You can wear whatever you want/ do whatever you want with your body and still have the same value as a person, but you don’t have to put all your eggs in one basket. You are worth more than how sexy, ladylike, beautiful, etc. you are.” She’s basically saying that a woman’s value and self-respect lie in her not showing a lot of skin. She’s also implying that all women who choose to show skin are ‘caving’ instead of doing what they actually want to do with their bodies, and that all women who don’t show skin are NOT caving. What about all the women who choose to dress/be ‘classy’ or ‘modest’ because their families, churches, and societies tell them that they’re ‘sluts’, ‘less than’, ‘deserving of disrespect’, will lose certain opportunities, lack morals, are to blame for other people’s bad behavior, or are asking for it if they don’t choose to avoid letting too many people see their bodies? Are those women not ‘caving’?
@Otaku Fairy: Love the perspective you’re bringing to this conversation and agree whole-heartedly. I was genuinely moved to see what you wrote upthread: “Making moral judgments about women…more likely just means that they’ve internalized the same sexist, victim-blaming beliefs they’ve been taught by their ancestors, societies, and religions- no matter how liberal or atheist they claim to be. None of us are immune.” Even though you disagree with the substance of some of these posts, you’re choosing to recognize everyone’s inherent humanity in your disagreement (i.e. everyone was raised in a culture, everyone was taught things by that culture, everyone has internalized pain/prejudices) while articulately laying out your own point of view. Thanks for such thoughtful contributions!
How is your assumption that anyone who dresses modestly is doing so only on the basis of “victim-blaming” beliefs any different than someone who claims a woman is dressing provocatively because she is less than intelligent? Your opinion doesn’t affect me one way or the other, but you might want to be aware that sounds.
I got something different from Pink’s comment than you did. Especially when she specified their “brains, their strength, their work ethic, their talent, their ‘magic’ that they were born with, that only they possess [I think she is talking all women in general, not just one group of women].” We each possess some great traits or “magic” that make us unique and valuable. However, any one of us could bypass the cultivation of those traits and take an easier road, calling attention to ourselves by stripping down and flaunting it. I don’t believe she was saying that those who take that path lack intelligence, etc. That’s what her words meant to me anyway.
If someone chooses sexuality as their way to make their mark on the world, so be it, and at some point I may find myself sharing my opinion about it like anyone else (i.e. this blog), but if that person really truly feels empowered by it, then kudos to them and my opinion shouldn’t really make a difference to them anyway.
I don’t think being a feminist means you have to agree with everything about another woman’s lifestyle, behavior, dress, parenting, etc. My husband certainly doesn’t feel the need to support everything Justin Bieber, Jeremy Renner, Tom Cruise or Kanye West do or say simply because they’re men. Feminism is understanding that women are equal to men and should be compensated financially and treated legally the same way. It isn’t that I’m a woman and have to support everything every other woman says and does. I’m also a Democrat and a Catholic. No one expects me to agree with every other Dem or Catholic or even to support each of their leaders every single time. I’m still an individual with my own beliefs.
@Palekifaru: This! Being a feminist doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything a woman says or does. But when a woman says or does something that you disagree with or that goes against your beliefs, it doesn’t automatically mean they lack self-respect, are only one thing, or are not real feminists.
@Coleen: I don’t believe that all women who dress modestly do it because of slut-shaming and victim-blaming at all. I was just pointing out that just because a woman shows more skin than Pink approves of them showing doesn’t mean they’re ‘caving’, and just because they don’t make that choice doesn’t mean they’re not ‘caving’ to something either.
@Otaku fairy I really appreciate your dialogue on this. I love hearing from so many different people on this site, particularly when it’s an intelligent online conversation that crosses so many borders and backgrounds. Love all the perspectives and the opportunity to think more deeply about this during the course of my day!
I don’t think she’s body shaming or slut shaming. I think she’s pointing out that historically and in the present women have been expected to be image obsessed and because that’s the cultural norm it can be easier to fall into the trap of defining worth that way. It’s harder to ignore how much attention and popularity you can gain from that and to focus on your other sources of power. And she’s right. And it’s good message.
“It’s harder to ignore how much attention and popularity you can gain from that and to focus on your other sources of power.”
love this comment! it’s so true, and something I think about as I raise a daughter in this world. she’s still young, but it starts early.
Aww thanks! Yes it does start early. And I have no problem with anyone, male or female, being interested in their appearance when it comes to health and beauty because I do think body positivity and confidence in that area is important. I also think it’s important for kids to understand the power of a first impression and that, whatever you think of it morally, it can have a big impact. But I don’t want kids or adults to think that’s where identity and development begins and ends. I’d like to get to a place in society where we’re not pigeonholing people into stereotype boxes of nerds, jocks, pretty girls, band geeks, etc. What happened to being well rounded and finding joy in multiple areas of life? We’re still passing on so many of our stereotypes to our kids and it’s really limiting. And the more we support the people who are famous simply for fame and not talent, the more we show our kids that’s the important thing in life. I want to hear more kids saying they want to be a scientist or author and fewer saying they want to be a celebrity.
The part that turned it into slut-shaming was where she separated women into two categories of ‘intelligent, talented, self-respecting, deep, ‘magical’ women who don’t show their bodies and women who lack those things and do show their bodies.
We have different reads. Personally I think there’s a big difference between owning your body and sexuality and doing what a lot of celebrities are doing and selling their body and only their body. They’re not showing anything else and that IS a problem. She’s not calling out a talented musician or CEO for wearing a cleavage baring dress. She’s saying you are more than your sexuality and don’t let other people tell you that you’re not or you don’t have more to offer. Just because sex sells doesn’t mean you have to make it your only defining trait. I have zero problems with that message. I also have no problem with your disagreeing. But I do have problems with people like Kim saying they are owning their bodies while other women who do the same are sluts. People need to be called out for those mixed messages. Walk the walk when you talk the talk, you know?
This comment here is amazing! I don’t think she was slut shaming, either. Just that there is so much more to you than skin. And you can cultivate that and be truly amazing, instead of getting attention the easy way by stripping down. Basically, she’s saying that we all have choices.
Right on @paleokifaru! I completely agree and you said it much more eloquently than I would have.
This is my thing, when did it become a bad thing to want to set higher standards for yourself and think others should as well? What pink said is spot on. Women shouldn’t have to sell their bodies for attention and fame- plain and simple. Doesn’t that put us right back to the beginning if that’s all people want to see women for? A pair of tits and ass? I have no problem with nudity, or being sexual because God knows I am. But I also don’t have an issue with women using their brains and smarts to get ahead. It’s easy to take your clothes off but it takes determination and guts to do more!
Well-said, my friend.
Thanks Kitten! ❤️
Word.
We women are so much more than just T&A, and we deserve to be told as much. There’s no slut or body shaming in that.
Agree. For myself I’m constantly checking and evaluating where the line is. If there even is a line. I get bored with the constant nudity or near nudity being shoved in my face and I wish women esp., young girls would aspire to more. But I also don’t expect celebrities (who at the end of the day are all too human) to be role models. And I’ll leave it to individual women to decide for themselves what is empowering even if I side-eye them for it. However, side-eyeing is not the same as policing.
Eh. I’m rambling. Bottom line I agree with P!nk to a certain extent. Just as long as she doesn’t get all preachy about it ya know?
I don’t care what other people use to get ahead. I personally use my brain, but if someone else uses their body or their sex appeal, that’s their choice.
Thank you Locke. Sometimes you’ve been so marginalized that it is one of your few options.
The whole conversation about buying in to the male gaze versus female agency needs to happen but the outcome is frustrating.
Women are told that their looks and sexuality are the totality of their worth. Then the ones that succeed at using those tools, we denigrate. Pink here is specifically saying that you won’t be ashamed if you never use those tools. Except you shouldn’t have to be ashamed if you do.
The focus should not be on poking fun at or judging women who use the tools available to them, but the system that values that specific toolset above all else.
I don’t think anyone should ‘have’ to do anything or abstain from doing anything with their bodies period. But I’m also overall tired of women being told they have an obligation as women to not do something (wear revealing clothes, wear conservative clothes, pose naked, get married, not get married, wear make-up, wait until marriage/commitment, have casual sex/hook-ups, have babies, choose surrogacy, etc.) in order to ‘prove’ to other people that we’re more than that thing under the guise of feminism & the greater good. It seems like whenever a person falls under any groups other than Cis Straight White Male, they get unrealistic pressure from members of their own groups and from ‘outsiders’ to be in this state of constantly having to ‘prove’ to everyone that their group(s) are worthy of ‘respect’ and more than x, y, or z by not doing what they want to do with their bodies and presenting an approved- of image. And when the person pushes back and says, “no, I’m not going to play that game” it turns into, “Well then how can you call yourself a feminist/say you want equality for all people if you’re not going to join us in playing the ‘Earn Their Respect & Prove Our Worth’ game? You’re to blame for our marginalization!”
” You’re to blame for our marginalization!”
Wow, that’s it. That’s the line. I always love your feminist perspective Otaku. You always just hit the nail perfectly on the head.
Same thing we say to rape victims in an effort to absolve their rapist of his/her crimes.
+1 000 000
Otaku fairy – every single post you’ve posted on this subject is gold. You’ve said what I wanted to say but better. You’ve kept your temper and been eloquent despite many of the main posters here disagreeing with you. I appreciate your viewpoint and the time you’ve taken to explain it thoroughly.
I love celebitchy, because it’s usually a wonderful liberal feminist and allied place.
Except when it comes to showing the female body and any form of sex work. I realize that sex work and female sexuality and agency are difficult topics to discuss because there is a lot of internalized baggage. It’s shameful how many smart commenters believe that because they are a certain way (modest/monogamous/full piece 50s style bathing suit wearers), everyone needs to be like that or they lose part of their worth as women and as feminists.
Yes I don’t like the blame game with marginalization. I don’t see men pointing to people like Trump or Kanye West and saying they give all men and what they’re capable of achieving a bad name. And I wish we as women and society as a whole would stop doing the same with celebrity females. I don’t have to agree with or support any of the Kardashians or Chelsea Handler or Hilary Clinton but I also don’t need to hold any of them up individually and point to them deterring women as a whole. No single woman is representative of who I am as a person except for me. And we don’t have to be a monolithic group to be one that is treated equally in society. We really need to start teasing these things apart in our discussions of feminism.
Yes!! “It’s easy to take your clothes off but it takes determination and guts to do more!”
Way more succinct than I was up thread.
Interesting conversation thread.
I don’t think you lose self-respect by taking your clothes off but I do think it’s boring, predictable, and not particularly valuable.
I think the problem with someone like Kim Kardashian taking her clothes off all the time is that she’s defined by it. There’s nothing else to her persona.
Other actresses and pop singers have used their sexuality in films and pop videos but I don’t think their actual identities are defined by those occasional images. With Kim, the use of sexuality is so constant, I have no idea what else she’s about (and I don’t really care).
Right. Even one of the women she quoted Angelina Jolie has taken her clothes off several times for her art. Miley, Beyoncé and Ariana Grande have all dressed wearing very little or nothing (Miley) when performing or making a video. But that’s just for their performance and it doesn’t define who they are. They dress according to their art. We don’t see most of them walking around everyday wearing next to nothing on their down time. Even Pink often performs in leotards where you can see her butt cheeks. But Kim seems to let her sexuality define her; she has no real talent but taking off her clothes. Pam Anderson was labeled a sex kitten. She got her start by posing for Playboy and did it many times but even she went on to acting and finally reached a point in life where she kept her clothes on. Thanks Pam, you were the one that really kick-started this celebrity sex tape thing.
Well said!
Actually, there are other things to Kim K’s persona besides sexuality, like superficiality, family drama, stupid quotes, plastic surgery, and getting lots of media attention :). Between today and yesterday, I’ve found myself paying way more attention to anything related to Kim Kardashian than I care to. Usually I avoid things that have to do with this family.
But even when women like the ones you’ve mentioned- Beyoncé, Ariana, Miley- who have shown us that there’s more to them than desirability have gotten the ‘Put some clothes on to prove that there’s more to women than sexy” criticism. It’s as if people think the only way women can be more than sexiness is by avoiding anything that might be seen as sexy. To me women like Beyoncé, Sarah Brightman, Mariah Carey, Ariana Grande, Christina Aguilera, and yes, even Pink have all shown that they can flash their tits/show skin and still show that there’s talent and other things to them.
Especially when you have nothing to show but surgical enhancements. It’s an all different thing to me when athletes, women or men, pose nude or semi nude.
Yes.
I didn’t read that as body-shaming or slut-policing. I think she’s pointing to the fact that women have to work crazy hard to succeed in general, and that the expectations culture has about women’s bodies make it complicated and tough.
Honestly, every time I’ve read an interview Pink has done, I’ve found her to be pretty thoughtful and smart. I definitely don’t want to condone any body-shaming nonsense, but I don’t think I see that here.
Agree 100%.
She should have sent that message to Kardashian, but she is too classy. She is one of my favs. Love her music, attitude and her ability to be a real human being in a plastic industry.
I appreciate her comments. I think there’s something to be said about a woman that uses her brain to achieve rather then being vapid and showing the world your body to make news. I’m not slut shaming at all, I just think there’s something to be said about a women who bust her ass to be taken seriously, versus a vain and self obsessed idiot who gets off on attention and feels that her self worth is wrapped up in beauty and nudity. P!nk for the win.
But are those really women’s only two options? Use your brain and work to be taken seriously OR be vapid and show the world your body? Aren’t people more multi-dimensional than that? Can’t there be women who show skin but still have things like talent, work hard, or stand up for things that are part of equality? Can’t there be women who choose to cover up and work hard in other areas but are still in their own ways vapid, judgmental, and problematic?
I flove Pink. She’s absolute right. Kim can post all the selfies she wants, but there are women out there who aren’t attention wh0res, who quietly get by and influence the world through word, deed and action without using their sexuality or superficial beauty to achieve status and recognition. Let’s triumph those women. And if Kim K stans felt she was referencing their idol that’s the breaks. That is the path she’s chosen. Not everyone has to agree with it. Pink wants more for her daughter. Good for her!
I 100% agree with Pink, it’s not body shaming at all. There’s women out there who bring more to feminism & representing women making us proud of what they do. I have no idea why people think defending Kim K is something a feminist should do, if you don’t then you’re not a feminist. F-ck that. What Kim K did to get to fame is disgusting. she didn’t work hard for it, she goes to Dubai for “trips”, gets naked because that’s all she really does/knows,etc. The brand that all her family has it’s all thanks to their mom, Pimp Mama Kris. All of them are not smart enough to have made it this far if it wasn’t for Kris, so no Kim is not a savvy businesswoman that’s all her mom. Thanks to her she got the deals, the app game, the reality show.
I disagree that this is body policing, as I highly doubt she has a problem with showing one’s body, which she has done several times. What she is clearly calling out is KK’s obvious thirst for attention, on which she’ll act whether she’s butt naked or fully clothed.
Every time I read something about Pink I come away with more respect for her.
She’s an amazing athlete too. Her strong spirit perfectly matches her physical strength.
I read it as her talking against the current culture of wanting to be “famous for being famous,” which for women almost always involves using only their sexuality to get ahead.
Except that Pink has always had a very sexualized image and a lot of people were dragging her all over my timeline posting all the semi-naked photoshoots she has ever made. And she has an history of slut shuming and bad mouthing other female singers soo… sorry but I don’t like her or what she was trying to do here. As Kaiser said women who show their bodies whether to make a living or for personal enjoyment can still be feminists and nice people, they don’t lack “self-respect” and they don’t “cave” as Pink wrote.
That’s my only beef with her.
She always comes across like she hasn’t also used her sexuality as a primary way of representing who she was and what she believed in. I don’t think her comments were slut-shaming but I do think there’s room for her to sell admit her own hypocrisy just like Miley.
Yeah, like is she implying that when she was naked she was lacking self-respect too? It’s not the first time that she slut-shames other singers despite being very sexualized herself. I don’t know why but with her and Taylor Swift the general public always forgets that they have a sexualized image as other singers.
YES.
I had her and Taylor Swift tip toeing on my mind reading her comments.
I also had to go back to what Nicki Minaj said too. When a woman has a certain type of body (skinny and tall for Taylor and athletic and trim for Pink/Miley) she’s allowed to be sexual and be naked and show off her body and not have judgements put on her.
But if a woman is curvy, does have fuller breasts and an hourglass figure, damn don’t even wear a leotard like Beyoncé. They’ll come for you for eternity all because your body naturally evokes sexiness.
This is undeniably true.
I guess the different for me is that Pink’s way of using her sexuality has always been in an almost androgynous, in-your-face kind of way. Pink has always possessed a unique physicality that didn’t fit the mold of the Spears-era ubiquitous perky blonde with big boobs. I guess I always respected her for unapologetically embracing that, even when some people were calling her “manly” and saying that she wasn’t attractive. In other words, she didn’t back down from her sexuality in spite of people saying that she wasn’t sexy.
To me that’s different than a Miley who tries so hard to push forth this image of a sexiness. It always feels so forced with her.
Pink has ALWAYS been about her talent. It is her voice that sold millions of records. It is one thing to be sexual AND talented, it is another to just offer sexuality all by itself. I am not judging people who do, but I do feel sorry for them because it is such a self defeating goal. Every female alive has the ability to be sexual AND something else at the very same time. That is where the power is.
As Jenna Jameson wrote in her autobiography, when she was stripping/p0rn at first she felt empowered because these men were paying her tons of cash just to look at her. Then she began to resent them because she realized that she was doing things that made her feel degraded in order to win that cash and their approval. She thought she had the power, but then she realized it was the opposite because it was so dependent on others approval of her. After that, she worked to be known as a business woman and not just a p0rn star.
WORD. She’s actually annoying.
I 100% disagree with Pink. On a day that should have celebrated ALL women (disabled, fit, fat, sexy, frumpy, skinny, the ones with mental health disorders etc etc), she CHOOSE to be (again) passive aggressive about other women who don’t fit into her view of women. She has a track record of doing this and has made sexist statements about Britney and Christina, has made money of it (songs) and has sold her own image and gained popularity of it. So weak. Worry about yourself Pink because you have used your body too and besides being athletic/muscular, she quite well fits into the conventional beauty standards! She protests way too much.
What’s the point of tweeting women who do get what feminism is all about when she cannot reflect on her own thoughts and behaviours? She literally says she will not change or reflect about it by tweeting that she won’t change her mind! If that is not stupid, I don’t know what is and doesn’t she hate ‘Stupid Girls’?
Her continuous attitude towards women who don’t do what she expects them to do means she’s still petty and cannot get over the fact that other women use their bodies to their advantage. She sounds bitter as hell. It’s not just Kim or other celebs that do it, it’s rampant in art, you can find it in the sex industry, don’t these women deserve respect and love (on International Women’s day)? How is there not strength in loving your body and having the courage to make money with it in a world that hates women for whatever path they choose? She’s stupid into thinking that sexy = stupid, weak and smart = strength (and usually unconventionally beauty). It’s so narrow-minded and cliché and so typically white male too!
Lastly, her whole quote would have been much better if she just said, ‘while there is nothing wrong with using whatever you have, know that using your body isn’t your only option!’ or something along those lines. THAT is inclusive and not dismissive. Pink can bore off with her sexist attitude and glorified Cirque du Soleil performing act.
Argh….yeah…..I don’t know what to say because while I wouldn’t go quite as far as you have here, I do think there’s truth to what you wrote. I also agree that she could have phrased things a bit more openly and less judge-y but then again, it’s her opinion. I don’t know…I have mixed feelings.
WORD UP.
@Artemis, totally agree with you and Cynthia. And this is coming from somebody who likes Pink, but, like you’ve said, she has a history of doing this.
Perfectly stated!
Thank you Artemis. Feminism is supposed to be for all women, not just the ones you consider ladylike, respectable, and proper.
Pink uses her body for artistry. You haven’t seen her on the silks? I’ll take a woman with talent using her body over some bimbo reality show carnie stripping for attention any day.
Thank you, Cynthia. I was hoping somebody else would point out Pink’s hypocrisy. She’s spent a good deal of her career in nipple pasties, revealing outfits, semi-nude, flashing her ass, naked, and in sexualized songs and music videos, speaking on how she is sexually empowered and all for women doing what they want with their bodies. (She was in Lady Marmalade with Lil’ Kim, Christina Aguilera, and Mya too.) You can’t say and do all that but then turn around and tell women that their self-respect and value depend on them keeping the word from seeing their tits and ass. And I cannot STAND the hypocrisy of people who imply that female self-respect & value are about limiting the number of people who get to see those parts of her body but then turn around and get mad at men, conservatives, and others who say that female self-respect & value are about strictly limiting the number of people who put their penis in her/ making sure the only penises that enter her are those belonging to people she’s in a committed relationship with. Both arguments objectify…dehumanize… women, but the people who make those arguments think they’re fighting against women’s dehumanization (what objectification really means, not being seen as sexy or being ‘easy’, as some have put it.)
OF – You are my new internet crush.
I refuse to let men tell me what ‘acceptable’ sexuality is, and hells if I’m going to let some women do it instead.
I am not a Madonna or whore and neither are my friends. Neither are my enemies.
Also there is no reply to the post about Jenna and her porn experiences, so I’m doing it here.I’ve done a decent amount of work on the public health implications of sex work legislation. Her opinion is one that comes up frequently, but so do other more positive opinions. Most of the shame and bad feelings about sex work come from the social pressures saying you are a crap person for selling yourself that way. And the violence issues that arise because it’s not quite legal (where I am). Granted this is based more on selling sexual acts and less on porn. The whole James dean thing is horrifying and it sounds like there are some huge issues in that industry so I imagine it’s somewhat different.
There are a couple sex workers on this board who have posted about their experience and it is always wonderful to hear their opinions on those topics.
Pink may have used her body at times, but she always accompanied doing so with talking about social issues and politics, showing she’s more brains than T&A.
PINK bugs me. She gets away with a lot because like Taylor Swift, people don’t necessarily see her in a sexual light. She wears what amounts to a bikini during many of her shows and she performs rope routines that like Amber Rose pointed out, would be looked at very differently if she used a pole and not a rope. She sings about sex and she swears like a sailor. If Rihanna or Nicki Minaj did the kind of performances she did wearing what she does it would be considered extremely sexual and vulgar. But she has smaller boobs and narrow hips and a slightly more muscular frame, so she can writhe around in two strips of spandex and still parents will take little kids to her shows.
It’s not about how you use your body, it’s what you’re body looks like.
She took a measured response and no it’s not body shaming. I really enjoyed her comments.
I think what’s hard for people to understand when it comes to women willingly choosing to be risqué and wear sexy clothes or perform erotically is it is a choice. We can argue up and down how it’s a bad idea but the reality is even in our US of A theres a strong mentality towards a woman’s self-worth only mattering if she plays by the rules.
If she’s a good girl and keeps her clothes on and looks sexy but acts like a nun and is pleasing for a man to look at but without enjoying it herself she’s worthy of respect. That is how we value women. She’s covering up? Good girl! She doesn’t act sexual? Even better! A rape or assault happened to her? Well hmm. What was she doing with this person/walking alone at night/leading this man on? We pretend to value women for being modest and then abandon them as soon as they’re molested as if theyre a piece of jewelry that was tarnished.
Women these days DO choose to be sexy. Pretending that being sexy frees women from criticism or makes their life financially easier is a lie. It’s a choice and some women can be roped into it and made to feel pressure but that’s true of everything. But the women who wake up and don’t care if you like or hate it, are going to be sexy and wear the clothes they want, represent their body how they want, be as purely themselves as they want even if the world tries to scold them – I respect those women so much.
We all draw our power and confidence from somewhere and if we want a world where girls don’t feel pressured then we have to create a world where women are respected on the strength of their ideals and not simply for pleasing the male ideal of the Madonna or the Whore. That’s a complicated nuanced topic that can’t somply be summed up by ‘nudity bad!’ or ‘modesty good!’.
As always ESE your posts are food for thought.
Thank you darling.
Perfect!
Far better stated than my snarky snark upthread; i think i was still kind of annoyed at Melissa McCarthy. Thanks as always for the well-thought-out notions ESE.
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Except there’s a valid argument to be made that “using your body to get ahead” is actually harmful to a lot of women.
First, let’s be clear: not every women has the option of “using her body.” She only has that option if she meets with conventional beauty standards. If she’s fat, disabled, or otherwise falls outside of the standard beauty norms, her body is marginalized as disgusting. So there’s an argument to be made that when a woman who can use her body to get ahead does so, she reinforces her own privilege on the backs of those who are not afforded that option.
I will never forget going to a forum about beauty standards and listing to a young woman who at one point modeled (small time stuff), was extremely popular, etc. Then she was in a car crash and was burned over 60% of her body, mostly the upper half. Suffice it to say, she doesn’t look the same anymore. And she talked about how after the accident, people who couldn’t wait to be her friend before ignored her. And she kept saying, “I’m still the same person, I just look different. Why is this happening to me?” And she pointed out that when she was conventionally attractive, she had a lot of opportunities that she now lost. And she said that she now got that being able to use your looks to get ahead is a profound privilege and that, on some level, doing so does so on the backs of and at the expense of people that society would rather not look at. And that convinced her that doing so is wrong.
Personally, I don’t care if feminism cares for the most privileged of women. Feminism should, if it’s legit, be for the marginalized and the put upon. It is not body policing to say, “When you do that, you do it at the expense of people who are not afforded the same privileges as you. You are reinforcing unfair societal standards and maybe you should be made to think about that.” If that’s body-policing, then feminism isn’t for me.
Right on!
Very well said. No need to add to it.
I’m not sure I agree that privilege is necessarily something that happens at the expense of others. If you have privilege of some form (white, attractive, rich, cis, straight, etc., etc.), I don’t think you should have to consciously avoid taking advantage of it. That sounds like achieving equality by lowering everyone down to the same standard. The focus should be on RAISING everyone up to the same standard.
So, instead of telling “conventionally beautiful” women to avoid using their bodies, couldn’t we focus on expanding the definition of beautiful?
Actually, now that I stop to think about it, Kim is – in a small way – an example of that happening. Back in the 90’s, all the celebs were super-skinny. Kim’s figure was definitely not typical. She’s got hips that must be 3 times the size of Kate Moss’s, and yet she’s happily flaunting naked pics. Her body is fake (photoshop and surgery), so she’s not a great example of expanding conventions of beauty, but she’s at least a point diversity, if that makes any sense.
Makes a lot of sense to me. Well put.
Beyoncé dances not strips. Pink herself is no stranger to dancing with skimpy outfits and what you might not know is that Beyoncé wears 3 pairs of flesh-colored stockings which gives the illusion of not wearing anything
Kim didn’t post nude pictures because she was empowered. She posted them so that some dumb Kanye stans can call her hot, sexy, milf etc. which ultimately does not make or unmake her a feminist. Bey lives feminism; her all-female band, her status in the industry, her songs, her pay gap/ gender equality essay (which many people here ragged on her for) etc. Kim only brings up feminism when she posts a nude pic which doesn’t get up to 2 million likes on Instagram or to take attention off Kanye
This.
Beyonce and Pink are equivalent in the sense that they can do a crazy amount of physical showmanship and still sing without lip synching. Their moves aren’t equivalent and their songs aren’t equivalent. None the less they’ve both willingly and comfortably show. Their bodies for their songs (Pink more than Beyonce) and they should be afforded that respect for the positive work they do.
I agree with both sides. HOWEVER: your looks won’t last. Your physical attraction will start dwindling with age. People will treat you differently. Whereas if you’ve invested in other areas, of your brain, your enthusiasm for life, your curiosity etc., not only will you find more longevity but also a lasting sense of self-respect and pride.
Women and men who rely solely on their looks will have a very difficult time transitioning. Not so much scientists, business people, writers or composers.
Girl, you were posing naked to promote your album, have a seat.
Amen
Is Pink going to address that she has posed topless before? And I don’t care that she has posed topless but she has. Eh, maybe she regrets what she did but I’d like to hear her say that when she talks about topics like these.
I’m baffled why people are so up in arms about Kim posting that photo anyway. That’s what Kim does, why is this time any different?
Exactly!!!!
I think what bothers me is that Channing Tatum, Matthew McConaughey (sp), David Gandy, etc. have all done male stripping (magic mike). They would be guilty of using their body, sex, stomach, and asses to get attention. But, because these are men, we don’t judge them for it, or think that they are being slutty. We think they are “fun-loving.”
But when women do it, we (men and women) do judge them for it…
Look, I wouldn’t be happy if things were reversed and all men felt the need to botox, get plastic surgery, and generally had to be extremely muscular to “get ahead.” It would send a message to my son “your looks matter and you won’t get anywhere without them.” And that’s the problem with Kim K (and our culture in general) around women – which is that we say, “yay, women can be empowered and be strippers, pose nude, etc. etc.” but how can these women really be empowered when they do these things and are rewarded only if they fit these patriarchal standards of beauty?
How can this be an empowerment thing when a lot of the women who do strip, serve as prostitutes (legally), pose nude, etc. might choose other options to make $, had they been available?
Pink’s attitude is that of a person who hasn’t had to worry about making money…but the women who don’t have that option – whose looks will fade, who can’t get surgery like a Kardashian – those are the people we should be helping.
This bugs me all the time:
“I think what bothers me is that Channing Tatum, Matthew McConaughey (sp), David Gandy, etc. have all done male stripping (magic mike). They would be guilty of using their body, sex, stomach, and asses to get attention. But, because these are men, we don’t judge them for it, or think that they are being slutty. We think they are “fun-loving.”
But when women do it, we (men and women) do judge them for it”
Magic Mike couldn’t have happened with women, I get the power imbalance and gender issues but it’s also intriguing to me that those men can and will be rewarded over and over again for using their bodies (does Zac Efron even have an acting career where he’s not the shirtless babe?) and yet we tell women not to. That they should have self-respect and not lower themselves that way, even as we high five men and laugh at them being the sexual arm candy. I just need the hypocrisy to stop sometimes.
When we as a society decide to start respecting women then we’ll respect them period and it won’t be strictly because they took their clothes off or put them on. It’ll be because they’re humans worthy of equal respect.
Men aren’t told repeatedly by a female version of the patriarchy that they need to take off their clothes to get ahead or be a certain version of sexy to be considered beautiful/handsome. And male body parts in general aren’t commodified the way female body parts are. I think that probably accounts for the difference in perception ( though I’ll be honest — when I see someone like Joe Mangiello, I kind of just assume there’s nothing in his head, whether that judgment is fair or not. Who knows — he could be a MENSA candidate for all I know, but I don’t if I take him seriously any more than I would an actress doing the same thing).
Men also aren’t told by a female version of the patriarchy that their morality, role model status, safety, ability to identify as a feminist, self-respect, respectability as a human being, the well-being of their group, and ability to be more than one thing are determined by their refraining from them doing things like that. It’s part of male privilege.
Any time people use someone’s gender, race, or both as a reason for why it’s not okay for them to do something they want and have the right to do with their bodies while people of another gender, race, or both get a pass (I’m looking at you Adam Levine and Justin Bieber, with your butt selfie, naked album cover, and nude photoshoots) people are being sexist. But people think that because their motives for their double standard are somewhat good, the fact that it’s a sexual double standard doesn’t matter.
The idea of men taking their clothes off for objectification appears to be a more recent phenomenon, so it probably comes across as more of a choice on their end. I’m not sure if the level of objectification of men will change in the future to the degree that it becomes as omnipresent as women’s objectification, but for the present when men take off their clothes most people assume they weren’t pressured into doing so. I suspect part of the judgment on women taking off their clothes comes from wondering whether she’s doing it because she wants to or because a male suggested to her that it would be a good idea (i.e male photographer X and whichever pop singer poses for him that month).
“How can this be an empowerment thing when a lot of the women who do strip, serve as prostitutes (legally), pose nude, etc. might choose other options to make $, had they been available?”
You’re right that some women might have chosen other options had they been available, but why can’t we talk about empowering them right where they are now anyway? Everyone has choices, some fewer than others. Trying to give yourself the best chance in life, even if your decisions are made because better choices aren’t available to you, IS empowering and should be recognized as such. That doesn’t perpetuate the notion that patriarchal standards of beauty are a moral/societal positive, or that power for women must necessarily be achieved through playing to these standards. It strengthens my personal conviction that compassion for another person’s choices, thinking, and experience is the best way to achieve true equality in this world.
Even Kim Kardashian, perhaps the most lambasted and notorious example of body = money/power, had SOME limited choices because EVERYONE does. Did she not grow up in the same patriarchal society I did? What female role models did she have growing up? Hasn’t she said repeatedly that she felt self-conscious about her body for years because super tall, super thin, beachy blondes were the beauty standard in the age of her adolescence? Isn’t is possible she derives some semblance of pride, power, and self-actualization from being a modern poster girl for sexiness with a body that luxuriates in its curviness, roundness, shortness? Of course Kim K is problematic, but she’s also a woman who’s made choices to lift herself up in a world that frequently tells women they ain’t sh*t. I don’t have to endorse her choices, or those of controversial women like her, to believe the false binary we feminists sometimes create between “good” feminism and “bad” feminism might be just as arbitrary and harmful as the ancient Madonna/whore complex.
I think Kim K had the option to make other choices. I really don’t think these were her only ones. I think these are the choices she’s made simply because she like them better. She’s the daughter of a renowned lawyer, and had more options available to her in terms of access to educated individuals and schooling and whatever else than someone in an impoverished environment. I do feel a bit sorry for her that she got stuck with that mom though.
I can empathize with her body issues because I (and a lot of other women) have them too, yet we’re not bombarding people with selfies of our nude selves on Facebook. The magazine editorials are at least understandable to some degree because a magazine is asking her to be in their pages, but I’m not asking to see people work out their issues on Instagram. And, of course, I shouldn’t click on the link if I’m not interested, but Yahoo at times doesn’t even give me the choice. They just stick her image on their site on the main page and I’m like, er, why am I seeing this?
Kim is a empty vessel. Her only talent is showing selfies of her photoshopped body and surgically altered face and body, and doing pap walks every day, except when hiding when getting baby weight off.
I can’t stand the Kardashians.
I think Pink is referring to when that’s all you offer, nothing else.
I think so too. And she’s not actually saying “no you can’t do that!”, she’s simply saying, “hey, you women who rely on your brains and talent instead of just the physical, you go girls!” (for lack of a better phrase).
If Kim wants to post stuff like that, fine, but she’s putting it out there for public comment, and people have the right to find that vapid and boring, and encourage other women who choose to live differently.
If Kim were empowered by these things than she wouldn’t feel the need to photoshop and airbrush these pics to within an inch of their lives. There is nothing real about these photos. Look at them, she doesn’t have a mark, a blemish, a line, a crease, a wrinkle anywhere. This is not even close to how real women look. A freaking barbie doll has more flaws than a picture of Kim. I guess this is my biggest problem with all of the nudes that she post. That and I just don’t want to see them. But let’s face it, the reason she does this is because she doesn’t have anything else to offer. This is what she is.
I agree. Also, what if it were KK’s brother constantly bombarding us with his nude photos? I’d still think “why are you doing that? What’s the point of that? You’re celebrating you body? Okay, but I’m not interested, sorry, please go away until you have something to say.”
This is why I love Pink. THIS is how I feel. Especially as a mother to a teen growing up in this naked-selfie-obsessed generation, where she and her friends feel pressured to take inappropriate pictured for “likes” to validate their existence, and how the girls who do this get branded as “Instagram thots” and me fighting hard every day against this way of thinking, and trying to get her to understand that she is a lot more than her T&A and that she is capable of much more substantial accomplishments, where she will be better respected for than “most popular Instagram girl”, I thank Pink and applaud her.
Yes I applaud Pink for using nudity and her sexuality to sell Albums but drag other women for using their sexuality and nudity to sell their wears. #GurlPower!
But she doesn’t #cave and she doesn’t lack #self-respect remember! She’s the real feminist icon we need! *rolls eyes into oblivion*
I appreciate her message but stuff like this just reminds me that all this girl vs girl stuff just makes it easier for them to keep us down.
Yup.
I agree with P!nk (obvs, I’m a huge fan)
And, listen, we’re not policing anyone’s bodies but taking and sharing a nude just to “break the internet” and get people talking is not really my idea of something “cool and interesting” to do. I see plenty of artists who use their bare bodies to express several different things, send different messages and use their bodies as a canvas. What does Kim use her body for?!?!?!?! Generate income and buzz around her name.
So, I’m not against using nudity tastefully, to give a close example, Kourtney’s nude photoshoot that she did with some artist, was a beautiful art piece. I don’t mind that at all, it served a purpose (or several if you count Scott’s repost on ig). Taking a pic, posting it online, counting likes and comments to inflate our egos? Eh… Not my kind of thing. If I had a daughter I wouldn’t want her to ever look into Kim, Kylie, Amber, Blac Chyna, Khloe, etc as role models. Love yourself, feel sexy and liberated, by all means. But why are you doing it, what are you doing it for?
I’d love for Kim to answer this very simple question.
That all being said, I don’t think these images question her character as a mother, wife, sister, daughter, friend, citizen etc. I just think we should all think about what we do and whether we do it with a valid purpose or just for *validation*.
I don’t think she is body-shaming or slut-shaming. And I happen to agree with her! Among other things, how you look is going to change no matter what you do or how much work you get done over time, and if your self-image depends upon how you look, you are just setting yourself up for a lot of suffering. Build something bigger and stronger I say.
All that said, I really hate it when people hate on beautiful women or women who are a part of the beauty industry, or presume that if you are beautiful somehow that is all you are allowed to be. Example, some of the backlash against Dita Von Teese. I don;t think that is what is going on here though.
All Kim has is her body and her sexuality. It is what made her and her klan rich and famous. I do not care if a woman is a prostitute, a doctor, an office worker-whatever. But let’s not make KK into an icon of feminism because she isn’t. Her body is what she almost exclusively trades on,even if the the trades are two years old. She has to keep posting pics to remind us of the only thing she has done, and that’s becoming a Plastic Surgery Krash dummy. Anyway, I will take Pink ANY day over Kim.
Oh, I don’t think Kim K is an “icon of feminism”, and doubt anyone else sees her that way either. I also agree that this was all a grab for publicity on her part, but I’m 99% sure that all the celebrities commenting on it (negative and positive) were at least partially motivated by wanting publicity too.
We all would take Pink over Kim. And no one thinks Kim is an icon of feminism. I just think that ger showing her body has nothing to do with her value as a human being. I am not praising her for being naked, I’m just saying that it’s her choice.
She should have been a little more clear that she was saying ‘I wish I hadn’t used my sexuality to get ahead’ instead of coming across like she’s shaming other women for doing the same thing she’s done. (I mean, if that’s what she was trying to say)
She’s done several nude photoshoots and once performed a song naked and covered in sparkles while doing mid-air splits and spins suspended over the heads of the audience, on national television. So the way this is phrased makes her sound like a giant hypocrite.
*edit* Actually, now that I think about it, doesn’t she have a history of attacking other powerful women in her music? Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, etc? Maybe she’s just a jerk.
I think she is allowed to grow and mature, what she did 15 years ago doesn’t have to define her forever. She is a mom to a daughter,I can tell you my views on feminism have changed when as a mother to only boys I became a grandma to a girl.
It wasn’t just 15 years ago though. For years she’s been profiting off of skin and sexuality, talking about how she’s empowered and in control and how women should be able to do what they want with their bodies without being slut-shamed but apparently doesn’t see how hypocritical it is to base self-respect on modesty. The ironic part is that she herself is living proof that a woman can showcase her talent, strength, and other qualities while still showing t&a and using nudity, sexuality, and attention-seeking simultaneously to get ahead and garner publicity and shock value. She’s proof that it’s not an either/or thing, that there isn’t a need to separate women into two different categories over it.
I don’t think Pink is hypocritical , she grew up. She had a kid and evolved, Kim K. hasn’t changed inspite of being a mother of two. The only thing evolving with Kim are her plastic procedures. Smh
dammit… i purposely don’t click on anything related to any g*dd@mn Kardashians, and I’ve been duped. Seriously. There are at least 3 stories on each page related to them. Make.It.Stop.
Yeah, I wonder what makes them so interesting. If I need to get the answer by clicking on their posts, I’ll keep on with my doubt. Damn, they make me yawn!
This whole thread is.. I don’t know what to say. Are you really praising a woman who consistently throws her colleagues under the bus because she doesn’t agree with their lifestyle? And profits off of it? A woman who consistently judges other women despite having made the same choices in the past? Let’s be nice and put aside that Pink herself has used nudity to sell her albums too, but how could you agree that women who get naked and are sexual lack self-respect? And that they should feel ashamed because they apparently are horrible people? “Women cannot being sexual beings in the way that boys are” said Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Why can’t women who are modest and women who are publicly sexual coexist?
Thank you Cynthia! All Pink does is attack other women, even women who have so-called talents. Pink is a raging hypocrite.
Its not to say that women who get naked lack self respect. Its pointing out those who do this are soley doing it for the thirst and the attention and offer nothing more. Pink has used nudity in her art to back up her talent. Kim gets naked because she is needy and longs to be the center of attention and to be seen as the most desirable woman. It’s just a cheap trick to get attention when you have nothing else to offer. She isn’t getting naked to bring attention to a cause or to make a valid point. And its not like she is doing this to survive (say , like Amber Rose, who became a stripper to support her family) she doesn’t have to do any of that. She does it for attention. I don’t have a problem with nudity or sexuality. As a matter of fact, I feel women who are confident in themselves tend to be less starved for this type of attention because they have something deeper to rely on than *just* their looks. More so than someone who is insecure and only gets naked because they need the constant validation and compliments.
@JeanGrey Pink herself used the word self-respect. And she didn’t use nudity to back up her talent, we are not talking dancing half naked with a rope, we’re talking naked pictorials or her wearing just a skirt on a magazine. My question is: what’s wrong with women getting naked out of self enjoyment and not in order to survive? How is that an offence to me or to the other women who make a different choice? Flashnews: it’s not.
It’s so problematic to even remotely imply that women like Amber or Kim are not deserving of respect, which is the message that Pink always sends.
Cynthia, I really like your comment.
The thing that stands out to me is she makes this effort to make a comment comparing and contrasting women who use their brains (and etc.) vs. those who use their bodies but manages to completely absolve herself from the discussion.
Pink wasn’t shy when it came to showing her body. One of her first music videos was her completely nude with rose petals covering just her nipples and genitals. That isn’t a mark against her but it is a fact. She has talent and personality but her body and freedom to show that body has been a very prominent part of her career and style.
So which is it for her? Does she feel pride in the quiet moments? Or does she think she’s above that? Or perhaps she feels she’s artfully combined the two aspects to make a respectable career? If so then what are her thoughts on that? Because she is judging, not saying shaming but clearly judging, so how does she judge her own showing her body vs. all these comments she keeps making.
I think it was feminist victory to start wearing dresses that covered only the knees.
Then drop the corsage altogether. The mini skirt was a victory too. Then the right to wear trousers as well. And also to wear bikini on the beach.
But the various states of further undress pics, that flood the Inet are not my thing. I understand when a performer dresses in nearly nothing for art . If it’s about singers I honestly can do without the whole nude cardio entertainment and prefer to concentrate on music/lyrics.
I think that after a certain point the nudity switches on Pavlov-dog-responses and doesn’t contribute to any “empowerment”.
Pink has always had this message! And she is right!!! My god go listen to her song stupid girls, it is about wondering where all the girls who wanted to be president, scientist went and how we suddenly started glamorizing and roll modeling the Paris Hilton, kardashians and Lohans of the world. And sorry she is right!!
Kim isn’t empowering women posting nude selfies, I mean do what you want but don’t act like it is empowering, because she clearly stated especially with her “clap back” that her only worth and value is her body and that is her only way to get money.
Sorry but we shouldn’t be encouraging girls to think this is good! we shouldn’t be celebrating that, because it’s wrong. We should be doing exactly what Pink said in that celebrating women who are sitting in a lab, or a court room, classroom, hospital or office but that are using their brains!!
It’s one thing if she had been getting fat shamed and did it then I’d be like go kim but she didn’t she was trolling for attention. She didn’t do it as a statement of loving your body, if she did she wouldn’t have spent thousands on surgery.
This idea that we can no longer call people out in pathetic behavior is sad, she wasn’t slut shamed. And saying she was trolling for attention and it was unnecessary wasn’t anti feminist.
“This idea that we can no longer call people out in pathetic behavior is sad, she wasn’t slut shamed. And saying she was trolling for attention and it was unnecessary wasn’t anti feminist.”
x1000. Thank you!
I can’t believe no one is concerned about the fit of her horrifying mom-dress!
Nudity isn’t really my thing and I don’t think that the vast majority of negative responses were slut-shaming Kim. Kim did something for attention and got the attention that she craved. Pink and other celebs played into her hands. Pink in particular looks like a foolish hypocrite now because people are calling her out for using her naked body and sexuality to get ahead and the fact that she drags other women in her profession constantly.
We keep forgetting that someone can be feminist and tacky, or even evil at the same time. About women using their bodies, I don’t think it’s morally wrong, but it’s not something to be proud of either. But in cases like getting a job or higher grades I think it’s dead wrong.
I don’t know what her relationship to other female celebrities has been like, but I just assumed she was referencing Kim K, who is only about her sexuality, not regular women who move back and forth between different poles of sexy and less sexy depending on their mood.
You didn’t mention Amber Rose’s tweets praising Kim. LOL that must have been one big fat check Kim signed. That’s all I gotta say.
Wow what did all the “feminists” do to empower themselves before social media existed? How did they share their naked selfies to the world? How did they let the world know they felt empowered, strong, and free? I wonder.
Right!
I get the sarcasm but um…women have been getting nude publicly and protesting since literally forever.
Refusing to shave and burning bras didn’t come out of nowhere. Literally the only difference is we have Internet now, otherwise this is exactly the same as it’s always been.
At least she stands by her comments. Sometimes it gets annoying when a celebrity gives their opinion and then immediately backtracks or try to play it off like “Thats not what i meant” as soon as the littlest bit of criticism comes their way. Like, people should apologize if they were saying something truly offensive/mean, but otherwise stand up for your beliefs.
Amen!
I for one, totally agree with Pink. Yeah, it’s Kim’s body and her prerogative, but I would much rather encourage both young women and men to use their minds instead of their bodies. Maybe it’s me, but a person who needs to continually pose nude whilst simultaneously changing her appearance through cosmetics and/or cosmetic surgery isn’t empowered. She’s looking for attention and approval. Whereas, what Pink is saying involves self-respect. JMO
I don’t know where to put this post so I chose here.
I think many confuse feminism with choice. The 2 are connected but… not so much at the same time.
Choice, choosing what you do and how you present yourself, is piggy backing on the work women have done for us, the sacrifices they made so we would have a choice. Choosing to use that choice does not make a feminist, it just means you are using their work for your benefit. (like Kaley from BBT).
Feminism is actively working so ALL women everywhere have choice. Equal rights for all. And there are so so many women globally who do not have any rights, let alone the right to choose to post a nude selfie. We owe it to them, and to the women who came before us, to continue their work. Resting is not an option. These women, these “famous” women have SO MANY they can reach with the message that they understand it’s their choice but that it came at a cost. And that cost should not be forgotten or taken for granted.
So no, this is not empowerment. It is not feminism, it’s not anything but riding the coattails of those who made that choice possible for you, without you having earned it.
Make change happen. It doesn’t happen from posting nude seflies.
Maybe this would have been better on the KimK post but I hate to give it a click and post number. She is the epitome of all I disdain.
Very interesting and well said. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Thanks for that.
That’s an interesting perspective, originalkay. Thanks for sharing it!
You know, after reading these opinions, is seems to me that one underlying factor is fueling this whole discussion (on a macro level): our society still looks at sex as something dirty and wrong. Once we rid ourselves of that belief (which probably won’t happen until we eradicate religion), this debate is unsolvable.
It might not be dirty, but it’s certainly intimate.
Not for everyone. Besides, we’ve been using sex to sell — publicly — for eons — so, as a society, we’ve essentially set up this arbitrary line of what is acceptable sexuality and what is not. And unfortunately, that line closely mirrors other man-made biases.
Quite right, but I disagree we’ll stop finding it disgusting if we eliminate religion. Religion is another symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.
+1
I couldn’t agree more.
I agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s all about the religious point of view. Since sex is such a complex subject, we’d be running in circles discussing this.
Fair enough. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I hope you don’t mind one last thought.
Consensual sex, in it of itself, is not that complicated. CONSENSUAL sex is perhaps one of the most natural things about existence. (And bonus: it feels great – plus excellent exercise!)
Our fears and projections are what make it complicated — and those projections are largely born out of an Abrahamic (Christian, Jewish, Muslim….) view that sex is something wrong and dirty unless expressed in a committed, heterosexual relationship.
And that’s not to say that some atheists don’t have hang-ups about sex. It’s just that our culture / society is so bound to Abrahamic traditions that even secular norms are tied to religious ones — especially when it comes to sex (and gender identity).
If religion was banned, so many issues related to sex would surely go away. But I think it’s naive to think that it would become simple. The majority of us have fears and projections, and sex can’t be disatached from our whole self.
pink is a hypocrit. Please pink, look me in the eye and tell me you havent exploited your body to make a buck in the music industry.
Pink and Kim are both complicit in the objectification and sexualization of their bodies to further their careers. Get off your high horse Pink!
I don’t think that Pink is saying that dressing sexy is immoral or bad, as long as it isn’t your only accomplishment. Kim Kardashian doesn’t have anything else going for her, or at least she doesn’t show or talk about anything else.
I do think Pink is throwing shade at the ‘look at me’ nude selfie types. Like most of us she is fed up that these types are now the only women being seen everywhere!
Can’t they both be right. They both can exemplify strength however they want. Telling someone else what they’re doing is wrong is the issue and its a slippery slope. I can’t lie, I laughed at Bette Midlers tweet… And it had nothing to do with slut shaming or nudity being anti-feminist. I laughed at the point people missed…. 1-it was a joke, 2- its about repetitive boredom. We’ve seen Kim frontwards and backwards… we all have bodies and i love the human body. But quite honestly, Kim could be more inventive, creative. Chloe has a different perspective… I don’t see any of these conversations as slut shaming, but as how we express ourselves. In my view, Kim’s redundant to a fault. I’d love to HEAR her talk about her view as well as seeing it. Or try different ways to express herself. BUT, that just me. Honestly we have so many bigger gender issues i find this belly aching silly. And when you need to write an article to explain what empowerment you get from your nudes maybe your audience missed your message. Because your comment on your tweet was having nothing to wear. I say bad messaging and misunderstandings all around. Honestly, Kim says her nudes empower her but IMO they feel a bit sad for her when i see them, because she keeps trying to be accepted, cheered as beautiful. Which, large or small, sex tape or married… that shouldn’t be in question. Her message is lost. But let Kim do Kim.
Interesting conversation. I think a person’s view and beliefs surrounding femisinism are shaped by race, geography, age, experience and religion among other things.
Pink lives in the world of entertainment where sexism is rappant and frustrating. Many girls and women are judged solely on their sex appeal and looks, often resorting to extremes just to get a chance to use their talent. They aren’t owning it but feel pressured to become something they aren’t to get ahead. But the trap is once they go down this road, the need to keep it up is enormous and almost impossible.
In the 70s and 80s there were performance artists who used their sexuality and bodies to do shocking and provocative things to forward their message of ownership in the context of feminism. Often it was vulgar, bawdy and in your face but they wanted to confront value systems and society’s views about how a woman should behave and conform. Bette M and Madonna were influenced by this era and incorporated some of the spirit of this in their own forms of expression and were criticized harshly because of it.
Bette got her start in gay bathhouses and married a performance artist who was known for doing shocking out there things and most likely she finds Kim’s sudden claims hilarious. Anyone and everyone can take a naked photoshopped selfie and when criticized conveniently hide behind a more acceptable reason behind doing it.
Feminism is trendy now and maybe that is good but not if it used like the fake 90s new age trend or the new domestic goddess trend where authenticity is for some completely absent.
We all change as we age and I don’t think anyone should be chained forever to their past. Everyday we experience new things and new people that maybe alter our perspective one way or the other.
I honestly don’t think Kim has any other agenda but the desperate need for attention to soothe her fragile ego and is not making a statement, which is fine, but her sensitivity to derogatory remarks tells me this has absolutely nothing to do with empowerment.
Sorry for any typos my wonky iPad hates me.
The world needs more P!nk and far fewer Kardashians, it would be a much better place.
Um … Pink isn’t exactly Miss Modesty herself – and I have no problem with that at all. Her body, she can wear what she wants or not wear what she doesn’t want but *if* she’s shading Kim, it comes off as a bit hypocritical. And of course Kim can show her body under the guise of feminism, we don’t OWN the word. I couldn’t care less if she wants to post her naked body on her instagram, and I don’t understand why anyone else does. Is it something I’d do? No, it’s not. That’s a choice I make about my personal comfort level and my personal outlook on life/empowerment/success, etc. Clearly, my pov is not very close to KK’s, but why does it have to be? I think some women are just grabbing at the chance to play on the high horse that feminism seems to have become in some ways. Kim’s doing what she wants to do. I do what I want to do. Pink can do what she wants to do – and so on and so forth. Bitching about it is just petty and redundant. Don’t like it? Don’t look. She doesn’t exactly go around putting a gun to people’s heads and forcing them to see her naked.
I’m not sure what Pink thinks she’s achieving when she posts things like this, sings her song about stupid girls etc. She’s not reaching out to the young women who are struggling academically, who don’t have that many options, and who might look at the Kardashians and see a life that doesn’t involve making minimum wage forever. She’s reaching out to the girls who are already doing great, who have the intelligence and the support to do amazing things, and she’s giving them a head pat and reminding them they’re better than those other stupid girls. It’s not helpful to anyone.
I personally do not care to see anybody naked Kim or anyone else male or female.But as a feminist I think equal works both ways if men are allowed to be pigs Kim is allowed to be vulgar what is good for the gander is good for the geese.Men will never change so will Kim never change end of story it is the new world we have to live injustice is for all not a few anymore.
Really? She must have matured a lot after the ton of nude and mostly nude photos she’s posed for. Google it people.
Funny how if you google ‘pink glitter in the air’ you can get a pic of her wearing a see through bodysuit with just ribbons covering her business… but I suppose that’s different. Yawn.