This is a long-winded story, so buckle up. For months before Doctor Strange even came out, people were talking about the whitewashing issue, mostly around the character Tilda Swinton plays. Tilda was cast as The Ancient One, the mentor to Strange, except that in the source material (the original comics), The Ancient One is an old Tibetan man. Tilda is a white British woman. So, yeah, the role was whitewashed in the script. Tilda made statements that were basically like “Hey, I just took the role, I didn’t write it,” and she made some noise about how much she absolutely supports diversity. As it turns out, Tilda was really bothered by the criticism directed at her for taking the role. She was bothered by it enough to reach out to Margaret Cho, who was very vocal about the underrepresentation of Asian characters and Asian actors in film & TV. And Cho told the story to a podcast last week. This is how Cho originally explained their conversation:
“Tilda eventually emailed me and she said that she didn’t understand why people were so mad about Doctor Strange and she wanted to talk about it, and wanted to get my take on why all the Asian people were mad,” Margaret Cho tells Bobby Lee on his podcast TigerBelly. “It was so weird.” Lee joked, “You are the president of all Asians: American division.” “I don’t have a yellow phone under a cake dome!” Cho laughed.
Strangely enough, Swinton initially got into contact with Cho through Alex Bornstein. “She hooked us up. Which is the most ironic,” Cho said, referencing Bornstein’s infamous Asian-ish nail-salon owner character Ms. Swan during her days on MADtv. “’Is it cool if I give Tilda your number because she wants to talk to you?’ And I go all right.”
Cho and Swinton had a “long discussion,” after which Swinton told Cho not to “tell anybody.” “It was a long fight about why the part should not have gone to her. That’s what I thought: The part should not have gone to her,” said Cho. “We’d fight about it and basically it ended with her saying, ‘Well I’m producing a movie and Steven Yeun is starring.’” (This is no doubt a reference to Bong Joon-ho’s upcoming film Okja in which Swinton stars with Yeun.) “Oh, like I have a black friend,” Lee joked.
“It was weird because I felt like a house Asian, like I’m her servant,” Cho said. “Like the ones when they have in the raj, they would have the house servant who was your confidante … The servant that was close to you. That’s sort of what I felt like, like I was following her with an umbrella. I had a weird feeling about the entire exchange, especially the part of ‘Don’t tell anybody.’”
The conversation began because Cho and Lee were talking about navigating an industry where there were no other people like them. “The fact is we’re not given roles that are worthy of us,” Cho said. “We’re constantly having to wade through and do what we can.”
Obviously, this story made Tilda sound like an a—hole, but as we delve deeper into the story, I want to point out the language Cho uses: “I felt like a house Asian” and “That’s sort of what I felt like.” She’s talking about how she experienced the conversation. As it turns out, they didn’t actually speak on the phone though. They emailed, and Tilda’s rep pulled out the receipts shortly after Cho’s interview got so much attention. I’m not going to print their entire exchange – you can read the emails here at EW. Tilda absolutely asked Cho to keep their email conversation private and Tilda tries to explain her thinking behind taking the role, which was basically yeah, Marvel whitewashed the role but it was in service of trying not to make it an Asian stereotype and yay feminism because now the wisest person in the film is a (white) woman instead of a Tibetan man.
After reading through the emails, I got the feeling that Tilda’s heart was in the right place, but I also have to say… she did more explaining than acknowledging that Cho (and many Asian and Asian-American actors) have a point. It reminds me of the stories Gabrielle Union has been telling, where she calls up problematic white women like Lena Dunham and talks to them about their privilege, forcing them to actually have a conversation about it. Only in this particular case, Tilda contacted Cho to carry on some kind of dialogue and it just went sideways because, oh right, Cho isn’t the spokesperson for these issues and Tilda was basically defending a series of script and story choices she had very little to do with. They were both in entrenched positions and while this isn’t the most popular opinion on the internet, I can totally understand how Cho felt like Swinton was treating her like a “house Asian.”
After Tilda’s rep released the emails, Cho was contacted for comment and she issued this statement: “Asian actors should play Asian roles. I believe my emails stand on their own and should be taken for the spirit in which they were intended. I am grateful that the debate has now entered the national discussion and remain a huge fan of Tilda’s. Now I’m going to go fall asleep at a museum.”
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Obviously Tilda STILL doesn’t get it. If she understood what Cho and thousands of others are saying, she would turn down the role. But oh yeah , she needs the money I guess ugggghhhhh
I think that this whole whitewashing anger is misdirected. It’s easy to attack famous actress (because it generates interest) but she is not the one who makes the crucial decisions here. They should attack the head of the studio or the producers or the casting director.
I assume that the character was made a woman to attract to large female audience, but the entire time I was watching the movie a list of Asian actresses who would have been amazing in that part was scrolling through my head.
The studios and producers should definitely be called out for whitewashing the role and for failing to recognize the talents of Asian actresses.
Actors have a responsibility for the roles they take.
Mmm…the excuse of “just doing my job” rings hollow. If Tilda felt it wasn’t right- then don’t do it. She’s not going to starve by not taking the role?
I’m sorry but this really annoyed me. “Asian actors should take Asian roles”. So in fact Asians should be stereotyped, as “wise men” or “nail salon technicians”. That’s the roles Margaret Cho wants them to have. I call bs on that. There are a lot of Asian actors working that take on roles besides the stereotypical ones.
Also in the source material {the comics) the character of the ancient one is “other worldly” an alien of sorts. Sure he is Asian but he is “not of this world”. I heard that David Bowie was in the running for that role because of his persona. But he was ill so… who else has that vibe? Well Tilda does! So I can understand the casting as well.
I understand people being upset and angry about other roles, but this one? No. David Bowie would have been perfect, Tilda was great I can’t think of an Asian actor with the same vibe.
This all boils down to money. They didn’t make him/her Tibetan because it would piss off China.
And if they did give it to an Asian actor it would still be very stereotypical. I am white, but I am Eastern European(ish), aka “the lesser white”, and I’d rather not be represented at all than be portrayed as an prostitute or criminal which is the way we get portrayed 99% of the time. So I don’t know what the solution to this would be.
Tilda is privileged and doesn’t get it, but from her interviews she rarely gets anything.
Ladies of celebitchy, in your opinion, what would have been the best way to handle that situation?
That’s an excellent point about China. Or rather , the Chinese market. It’s a point which will largely go ignored because whitewashing attracts more clicks. Money money money.
I have seen the movie and the ensemble at the place where Strange and The One are is a bit of mish-mash of students and people of other races.
However, if Marvel wanted to communicate diversity, why Tilda was bald and asianised? Just to resemble a Fu Manchu character?
If you want to go ‘diverse’, do it properly and make The One just a woman, regardless of the gender and race of the character in the comics.
@Locke Lamora:
Better writing.
Perhaps even if the role had been played by an old Asian man, the “Fu Manchu” stereotype could be avoided by making the character more complex and well-rounded. If an Asian woman had been cast, again better writing could help the movie avoid any negative stereotypes. I totally understand your frustrations with Eastern Europeans being portrayed negatively in most films and TV. I guess even criminals and prostitutes can get audience sympathy and understanding if the writing is good. But I suppose that’s too tall an order for Hollywood.
Additionally, studios’ China excuse is really pitiful. If they really wanted to attract Chinese audiences in a meaningful way, they would have cast a Chinese actor as Dr. Strange. Chinese audiences aren’t stupid. They know when Chinese actors are getting shoehorned into minor parts for only money reasons (Transformers, X-Men, etc. etc.) They are starting to get annoyed with it. They, like everyone else, want to see people from their culture portrayed in meaningful ways. As heroes. As people who save the world. As central to the plot. Rogue One did it right. It had a beautifully diverse cast who were important to the plot, whether hero or villain. This is a great example of good writing, for once.
There was nothing stopping the studios from race-bending the main character. They could have cast Jay Chou, Daniel Wu, Aaron Kwok, Donnie Yen, Leehom Wang, any English-speaking Asian (particularly Chinese, since that was Marvel’s pitiful excuse) actor as Dr. Strange. One of the biggest problems with Tilda Swinton’s casting was erasure. They took a (major) part away from a potential Asian actor. That was one less POC face and one more white face.
In fact, for me, the best solution to this entire “We don’t want to offend China so we cast Tilda Swinton” mess would have been casting a POC as Doctor Strange. There’s your f***ing solution, Marvel.
Now you’ll say the primary thing stopping Marvel from casting an Asian or Asian-American actor in the role of Dr. Strange is, again, money. But it’s a freaking Marvel movie. Marvel movies are guaranteed to make money no matter what. This has already been well-established, even for sh*t movies like Thor 2. So why not take a chance and put a POC in the main role for once? Chris Hemsworth was virtually unknown before becoming Thor. He was given that chance. Why not give POC a chance? This “money” excuse is lame. The “China is racist” excuse is lame and tiring.
But for me, personally, I don’t care how good the character is written and how complex it is if, at the end of the day, we’re still portrayed as ONLY prostitutes and criminals. I don’t need or want symphaty.
But I do think that maybe portraying a complex martial artist might be a different thing.
As for China, if they made the character Chinese, wouldn’t that be also bad? Portraying a Tibetan character by an actor from a country that is the enemy of Tibet?
Edit – I just realised you said cast a Chinese actor as DR Strange. I agree, that would have been a good thing, keep Tilda’s character white but make the protagonist a POC, but this is Hollywood. Apart from Will Smith I can’t think of any POC actors who headlines big blockbusters.
I don’t know. It seems like a badly handled situation that would have been badly handled in pretty much eery way because the character itself is badly written and problematic.
The Tibet issue wasn’t about the audience as individuals. They were going to see it or not see it, that wasn’t a deciding factor for most people. It was about access to that audience and their money. It really toed the line on magic, mysticism, spirits, which their censorship boards do not like. They had already banned Ghostbusters due to ghost so a wise, all knowing Tibetan man may have felt like to much of a risk.
This is one thing I don’t understand though, China is quickly catching up with us in terms of movie production. They are able to see themselves on screen, in meaningful narratives, speaking their own language. It seems to me they have representation and I think a Chinese Dr. Strange would have been rather ‘meh’ for them. They go see American movies for the same reason everybody else watches our blockbusters. I get that Asian-American actor parts get white washed and they don’t see themselves reflected in films and they actually have a real problem when comes to being erased out of our pop culture. I do think it is more an American issue than a Chinese one as they have options.
Plenty of POC headline blockbusters. Both the Indian and Chinese film industry are massive and there are actors there who would laugh at the suggestion that someone like Ryan Reynolds is a legitimate leading man based on his Box office results. But perhaps you meant Hollywood Blockbusters, you better add Denzel Washington and Jackie Chan who have been carrying movies to number one longer than some here have been alive. Still, this is besides the point that I want to make which is that the reason you cant name Western based Asian superstars is because they have been marginalised by the industry. And its really stupid of Hollywood too. They would rather take a chance on yet another white guy than pluck a certified Bollywood star who guarantees that EVEN if your film flops in the US, it will have a ready market somewhere. The lack of Imagination in Hollywood is astounding.
Sorry, I did not explain that well. I never said POC can’t be the lead in a blockbuster and yes by blockbuster I had one very specific type American movie in mind. I get the problem is erasure, when the dominant culture convinces you and everyone else that you have no identity, no history, “no kingdoms.” The dominant culture convinces you that it is the only storyteller, so how can you exist independently from it? I understand the problematic white hero trope and Hollywood’s diversity problem. I understand why justifiably people feel upset when a role is whitewashed and frustrated the roles just don’t exist in the same quantity for them and Hollywood’s depiction of an overwhelming white society that doesn’t reflect the reality of the United States. I just think here a lot is being projected on to Chinese people and their feelings on it. I honestly don’t think they would care as much as Asian-Americans do. It’s not the the later is unimportant just a lot of the post project the wishes of the Chinese people. There are posts saying they (the Chinese) want to see to see themselves in important roles and portraying heroes, characters with depth and complexity, characters that are more than a mix of tired tropes and stereotypes, that actually read as realistic people. I think the Chinese have that. I don’t think Dr. Strange was ever going to be a big, important, impactful movie even if Dr. Strange was Chinese. It is fluffy escapism, lots of action and special effects, and fun movie. That’s fine, there is a huge market for it. The really meaningful stories with the ability to emotionally connect with them are probably going to be ones made in China. As long as Matt Damon doesn’t come along and start starring in every Chinese made movie they will still have racial, cultural, linguistic representation so one role in a Marvel movie doesn’t seem like a big deal.
The US, India, and China’s rapidly growing movie industries are huge. In India and China however they are much more racially homogeneous so the issues don’t stem from lack of racial parity. They have there own issues, such as India’s colorism problem. So people on the thread are getting upset and defending the Chinese and I don’t think that they need it.
It does mater to Asian-Americans and rightfully so. Unlike the Chinese the dominant culture here doesn’t regularly feature them in a meaningful way. Not all Asian-Americans are from China or still have strong cultural ties to the places that they are from. So the movies being made in China don’t represent them either. They are the ones that are being marginalized. Every actor that I have seen named as a possible Ancient One has been Asian-American so it seems like we are only seeing it from an American point of view. They are missing from American films so that would be a big deal HERE.
I don’t know what the answer is for Hollywood. Importing Bollywood stars doesn’t seem necessary to me. We have plenty of talented American Actors that are also POC. They speak the language and they understand the struggles and triumphs and nuisances of our culture and would make for better representatives for American POC. Chinese, Indian, and American movies all have different sensibilities that reflect the culture they are derived from. Things like humor are extremely difficult to export. Things that are hilarious here may receive a tepid reaction in the UK despite our other cultural similarities.
I don’t know that Bollywood actors and whatever-China-will-call-themselves actors are marginalized. They are making movies that they love, in their home country, and native language. They are very successful doing a job they love. It is very possible they don’t want to be in big Hollywood movies for a variety of reasons. I don’t know that Hollywood should take all the blame for their stars not being household names here. Part of that is American exceptionalism and people being incurious as well as the sheer volume of Hollywood and Hollywood adjacent films. Everyone at least knows of someone that refuses to watch movies with subtitles or films that are too far from the Hollywood structure and formula.
The emails are really interesting. Tilda said they tried to remove the stereotypes, ancient wise Asian man ( and also prob not piss off China). She seems to get stuck on the idea that as an older white woman, she isn’t serving diversity by playing the role an Asian person might. She sees it as a diversity win, because old white broads are discriminated against. Which is true, but in a different context. I feel like the studio missed the mark, you can make an old wise Asian man, and you can do it without falling into a giant cliche. It’s just much harder.
Tilda is trying, she seemed very earnest, and I don’t think it’s fair to totally slam her. She obviously missed the mark on a few things, but she reached out? . Granted it looks like the criticism is more aimed at the fact she didn’t seem to listen, and just tried to explain her position, and if her and Cho aren’t close, then it was a serious miscalculation on her behalf. You don’t ask acquaintances stuff like that, because it’s a lot of unpleasant work to educate someone.
Then again, I don’t know if I’d feel the same way if it was a man talking about women’s representation, and I’m not Asian, so I’m probably not going to get all the nuances.
But they actually didn’t go diverse. She was bald and asianised in the movie, it seemed really a bad attempt at diversity from my perspective.
They could have cast her without ‘changing’ her, if you know what I mean.
@silver unicorn, how is shaving one’s head asianising? You realize that’s just her own Welsh face, right?
@Mieke
She’s SCOTTISH.
(you could get into trouble to tell Scots that they are Welsh or English lol)
The character was ‘asianised’, make-up/attire and so on. Chiwetel Ejiofor wasn’t, so why hers was?
@SilverUnicorn – in the movie, Mordo tells Strange that the Ancient One was originally Celtic.
Chwetel Ejiofor also wore a somewhat Asianised costume (looks like it was based on the men’s costumes I’ve seen in East Asian historical dramas, particularly Korean ones), so if there was an aesthetic going on, Swinton wasn’t the only one in on it.
@detritus, I also feel that it was in poor taste for Tilda to address her request for an explanation to Cho: another actress, one who might be impacted by the bias that studios display against minorities. Tilda and Cho, at some level, compete in the same market, where Tilda has an advantage. Tilda might have been better served by asking a neutral party, an academic perhaps.
Sally, obviously YOU didn’t read the emails. Cho is lying & wanting publicity.
So disappointed in Tilda. This perfectly illustrates white, rich privilege.
I’m going to ask, because I don’t know…Does your user name refer to Jackie Onassis? Or a different Jackie? Because if it is for Onassis, well, she had privilege and I think Swinton did the best she knew how, and we all eff up sometimes, so….live and let live?
Not everyone realizes there is such a thing as rich privilege and it isn’t an ingrain innate thought. You don’t automatically realize there is “white privilege” until you have or see life experiences with or through other people outside of your box and educating yourself about it. Tilda at first was seriously asking the question. This is the first step in people changing their beliefs and understanding. I’m mixed race and actually prefer for people to ask questions about the experience of it rather than believing they are special and understand what my family has been through. Sometime those yelling about how they believe in white privilege exists are just as naive and clueless as those who don’t believe in it. It is a lot more complicated than a person righteously believing they are enlightened because they believe white privilege exists.
After reading Cho’s criticism and then reading the email exchange, Tilda may come across as naive, but Cho comes across as an attention-seeking idiot.
This. I understand that it reeks of privilege that Tilda doesn’t understand the problem. But it’s very clear she made an effort, and she says that her exchange with Cho clarifies it greatly. Cho, on the other hand, misrepresented several parts of a communication she had agreed to keep private.
Ditto.
I think there’s an inbred disconnect between those who grew up privileged and the rest of the world, but Tilda was earnest. Cho is just a loud-mouthed, classless opportunist. She missed a real chance to be an ambassador of change here by lying.
I appreciate that Tilda made the effort, but a big piece of me wonders how, in 2016, she was so clueless? This is hardly a new conversation. Whitewashing and racial stereotyping have been going on in Hollywood since moving pictures were invented.
I wonder the same thing. Others on this story comments section have noted her as pretentious, and I’d have to agree. She’s said a number of things that give me “Special Snowflake” vibes.
Yup. Cho was asked in the very first email if she was willing to have a private exchange. Also, the EW article implies that Cho specifically suggested white actors should be more supportive of Asian actors’ careers, and Swinton’s response was that she is producing a movie with Yeun. Not quite as tone deaf as this summary makes it sound.
That’s pretty standard Cho. She has a lot of insightful things to say about racism, feminism etc., but she’s also the kind of person who lives to create drama and feeds on attention of any kind. When she’s making a broader point she’s great, but when she zeroes in on someone or something in particular it’s best to take her words with a grain of salt.
Cho makes some valid points about Tilda, but the fact she chose to put her on blast long after their conversation rather than actually bringing up any of that at the time isn’t great. Tilda comes across as pretty clueless and privileged, but she’s also very polite and open, and that she specifically sought out Cho’s opinion, of all people, suggests she was truly looking for the no holds barred brutal truth. Cho had an actual invitation to call her out privately, and she chose not to. To do it months later publicly is really crappy.
I was just going to post something similar but you’ve expressed perfectly.
Agree with you about Cho, it definitely wasn’t ok for her to discuss what was supposed to be a private exchange in public. However, I got the sense, from reading the email exchange, that Tilda was looking for validation and was not open to criticism. After Cho explained to her why the Asian community was upset by the casting choice, she seemed to get defensive and repeated the studio’s “explanation” for it. If anything, it seemed she was trying to convince Cho that this was not an example of white washing. So my impression was that she sought out Cho’s opinion not because she was truly open, but because she was hoping Cho would rubber stamp her decision to take a role that was originally intended for an Asian actor (and obviously that did not happen).
So much this! I think Tilda was trying to reach out to a prominent Asian woman, someone who was in the arts (like her) and could relate to, to try to gain understanding. She was reaching out in sincerity, asked for confidentiality, and didn’t get it. Whatever we think about the whitewashing issue, Cho comes off as the real jerk in this situation.
Totally agree. Tilda was perfection in the movie, personally I think she stole it from Benedict. I agree Cho comes out looking like the untrustworthy jerk which comes easy for her if you ever watched Fashion Police (which seems to be the DWTS for has been comedians since Joan died) Cho and the lovely Kathy Griffin whose mission at the moment is to make us hate Ellen.
I know she’s popular here, but I really can’t stand Tilda.
I like Tilda but I can’t even explain why lol.
Me too. Has anyone ever seen “Burn After Reading?” She played an irritable pediatrician who had zero patience or affinity with kids. It was hilarious. She was cheating on John Malkovich with George Clooney and had zero patience with either of them, too. So funny.
I’m with you, Deanna…I’ve never liked Tilda! Ususally, when there is a story on Tilda, on this site, most posters say “Tilda is a God, or Tilda is a Queen”….and, I’m sitting here, saying to myself, “Really, I don’t get it, I don’t see it”…
Ditto. Don’t understand the attraction, she’s just not that great an actress.
I’ve noticed people are super forgiving here when it comes to unusual looking pale white beauties. Cate Blanchett got a mega pass for Woody Allen during her Blue Jasmine push and its a pass that other Woody collaborators have not received. Tilda apparently rides for Roman Polanski and todays the first time I am hearing of it. David Bowie and the statutory rape situation…
Glad it isn’t just me then!
I think she’s a great actress, fantastic.
But I cannot stand her. I watched an interview with her years ago and she really came across as pretentious and privileged. I never liked her since.
I tolerate her in movies where she is not the lead.
And she is a Roman Polanski defender. Trash.
If she was actually sick of the lack of diversity, she wouldn’t be playing a willing part of the issue.
I rolled my eyes so hard at everything else, oh “it’s to avoid cliché” oh “Steven Yeun” oh “feminism”, go on and try to explain your privilege.But I’ll say that I did expect much worse from that description Cho gave.
I get why people are upset. I thought Marvel could have cast someone else as well. But if you read the email exchange and came away thinking that Tilda didn’t get it, please reread it. Tilda’a last email about the Bong Joon-ho movie was NOT an “I’m so woke” comment. She flat out states that she hopes the movie will help increase the visibility of Asians in cinema. The rest of the discussion is her giving her own perspective and thanking Margaret for helping her to better understand the full extent of the problem that she (Tilda) hasn’t been able to fully get up to that point.
Margaret Cho lied about the fact that they talked on the phone, lied about the tone of the conversation, lied about when Tilda asked to keep their conversation private (making it sound like Tilda was some kind of PR lackey), and then, after agreeing to keep their conversation private, spills it all (sort of, she LIED about it) on a podcast. How classy of her. Great that she tried to get her point across to Tilda. Way to undermine it by being a complete ahole about it afterwards.
My thoughts exactly. 👏👏
I agree.
And she also called Tilda a b-tch on the podcast, really mature!
I read about this on Friday on Dlisted, and here’s the rest of what Cho said:
“(…) It was a long conversation and it was so weird. She’s like can you please tell them to not be so… And I’m like, “Bitch, I can’t tell them.”
That’s how you really prove a point!
great comment.
I agree. And while we all may be angry because of the whitewashing here, do not use your outrage to defend very dubious behavour by Cho here only because she is Asian. That also is part of the problem.
That’s the thing. The two issues – the whitewashing by Marvel and Cho’s attack on Swinton – are being conflated, when they are only spuriously related.
Agreed.
Ditto.
If Margaret Cho didn’t want to have that discussion, or had an issue with something Tilda Swinton said, she should just have told her directly. 🙄🙄
Tilda said so in her first email, that if she did not want to engage in the email conversation, to tell her so.
Tilda might be a lot of things, maybe even set in her ideas, but not everything is black and white. She reached out, she is producing a movie and instead of trying to take this opportunity to get her to participate more, then the comedian breaks the promise of being private and shifts the tone of all what was said. If she felt bad,
She could have said so to Tilda I guess instead of building a wall. Like someone said downthread,
Someone was willing to talk about things, now they won’t.
BTW, I am a learner of English and I liked very much the way Tilda writes, how she expresses herself. I wish I could write so well.
NOPE. As an Asian-American, this just reeks of needing validation from “the source” to justify her (Tilda’s) actions, kind of like “I’m not a racist because I have a black friend BUT….”
I appreciate Tilda reaching out to be informed, but if she’s doing that just to be on the defense and only explain why HER feelings are hurt because people are pissed that she accepted a white-washed role, I am DONE. I am done trying to explain racism to privileged people, only to know I am wasting my breath because addressing white supremacy at large makes them uncomfortable. There’s always a “BUT I’M NOT LIKE THAT,” which misses the point entirely. You acknowledge the importance of diversity? Good, but you’re not getting a high-five. It’s really the least you could do. I’m not the biggest fan of Margaret myself, but I TOTALLY GET IT where she’s coming from.
And the whole BS about how it’s actually less racist to cast a white woman instead of an Asian man needs to stop. So you’re either a stereotype or you get erased completely and get replaced by a white person? It’s not racist/stereotypical if an Asian actor portrays somebody who knows martial arts if you add depth and complexity to the character. He doesn’t need to be a Fu Manchu if you hire Asian-American writers who know their shit. And if you don’t want an Asian man portraying the Ancient One, then get an Asian woman. But naaah, ethnic actors and actresses just don’t have that star power, right? Then there’s this argument about not wanting to piss off China by hiring a Tibetan actor/actress. Why can’t they hire a different Asian person then, like somebody with Nepali ancestry since it takes place in Nepal?
Fellow Asian American here.
Preach, sister. You took the words right out of my mouth.
Amazing comment, thank you.
In my reading, Tilda comes off as needing validation as to why her decision was correct. She needs an Asian person to tell her, no, it’s okay, you’re right. But Margaret wasn’t here for that. Tilda contacted Margaret first, and she obviously expected to have her guilt appeased. But Margaret was like no, there’s a reason this is receiving criticism, sorry.
Tilda didn’t contact her to have an open discussion. Tilda contacted her to defend herself to an Asian person and expected a pat on the head.
Tilda contacted her because Cho was one of the most public and vocal critics.
I was disappointed in Cho’s emails and her response in the Podcast. She put herself forward as a voice for diversity, but behind closed doors and directly contacted she stepped back and was more worried about Tilda liking her (oh don’t worry, Scarlett is getting the same criticism, it’s not you is the timing). Which is Cho’s right – but is in direct contrast to what she’s putting out publicly as well. No one is required to be the face of diversity and no one is required to explain racism. But when someone comes to you in good faith and you choose to engage, don’t be an a-hole.
Bridget, why are you disappointed with Cho’s emails? I thought they were thoughtful and insightful, and SHOULD have been enough to clue in most people. What disappoints me is that she agreed to privacy, then decided she could just throw that out the window because podcast ratings. If she was doing that, she could have done it in a way that would have kept the conversation squarely on the subject of whitewashing, where it belongs, instead it’s becoming “she lied and Tilda dropped receipts.”
Honestly, I felt she was more concerned with being nice, and could have gone far more in-depth. Because it WAS whitewashing, and there was so much more Cho could have said, but despite talking a big game publicly it turned out that privately Cho either really pulled her punches or simply didn’t have much to say. Margaret Cho isn’t required to be anyone’s racial guide, but Swinton did contact her specifically because she was a vocal critic, which would at least imply that she was interested in discourse. Obviously there are a lot of power dynamics at play, not just racial but also career (Oscar winner talking to career comic) and the deck may have always been stacked toward Swinton. I guess I just didn’t find Cho’s words to be particularly powerful, especially in contrast to someone like Constance Wu who has spoken so cuttingly on the same subject.
Preach sister JT!
Everyone up the thread praising Tilda for “trying” and chastising Margaret for being “mean”. So Tilda gets a pat on the back for minimal effort that’s still harmful and Margaret, the target of the harmful behavior, has to play “nice” or else she’s undeserving of basic humanity? FOH! The white privilege is real, they’re so blind to it though. Our abuser white supremacy gets brownie points for not hitting us as hard as they could have and we’re asked to speak on it nicely or else we don’t get to have a point. Stay low key abusing us
Bless your littlestar!
I’m by no means praising Tilda just for trying. She is without a doubt showing her privilege. But Margaret agreed to discuss the issue with her when she was told up front no need to, she kissed Tilda’s ass in the emails AND agreed to keep their exchange confidential, then turned around and violated that confidentiality AND lied about the nature of their exchange.
Why are you not calling Margaret Cho out on any of that?
I think Tilda missed the point entirely, but wish that Cho had explained better. Just a few years prior, Iron Man 3 made the exact same change and cast Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin and was celebrated for how they handled a character that was a racist trope. Swinton was clearly thinking that her Ancient One was going to get the same praise for avoiding another racist stereotype, and clearly the opposite happened and she didn’t understand why. And perhaps it’s just my dislike of Margaret Cho here (I’m ambivalent on Swinton) but I was disappointed in Cho, who seems to WANT to be a public voice for diversity, but not to be directly engaged on the subject.
I hadn’t thought of it as her needing validation. I definitely see that point as well.
Jackie Chan would have been amazing in the role. He should be in every movie. I love him. But yeah, there are easily a dozen Asian actors who are well known to audiences and could have played the role. It was a missed opportunity, that was obvious from the start.
Absolutely. It’s part of the cycle, like when people say to never attack Trump supporters because they don’t know any better than to be racist, misogynist, homophobic, b*stards.
Did you read the full emails?
I used to like Margaret’s comedy but haven’t seen anything lately. Not a tilda fan, she seems well meaning though. This conversation is probably like a micro aggression to MC because TS ultimately asked and then did not concede or learn, and ended on a note of self promotion. I only read it once and that’s my takeaway. No matter the subject at hand it’s not nice to be asked and then not quite listened to or taken seriously.
So what stands out for me is that they had to change it because of China. (Not because they’d attack us but because we want their money and then not to shut out this studio) China is such a power in that way and an actual power and trump is totally poking them. It’s worrying. And unlike Russia, who Obama, a rational and measured person just called worthless losers to their faces, you can’t even mention things inconsequential to China the wrong way like Taiwan and tibet. By inconsequential I mean that China is not building settlements in Taiwan nor does it need the land (it’s all ego), and Tibet has no chance of independence but we still can’t say certain words, every leader has followed protocol and now U.S.A is seemingly not going to follow it?! Scary.
And it seems HRC would have totally followed it which is the much safer option but also legitimizes their inhumane and less respectful practices. China has serious connections in Africa and certain middle eastern nations. And I guess Russia is with them since they hate USA now. So ww3 basically ~~
Yes, Fiorwlla I clearly recall that the conversation was how the character could
Not be of certain ethnicity because it’d highlight the china-neighbors conflict. And we all know how china can easily ban a movie or a franchise. Matters of money, but also there is no need to damage the fragile relations with powerful countries,
Just look at how easily they can be damaged, it just takes an orange cheeto phone call.
I like that it was changed to fit a woman, what could be the options? What ethnicities could be fit there that would be politically correct and not politically / in ternationally damaging?
I guess just changing from Tibetan to another Asian is making the censorship more obvious. So they “shake it up” and change another character black (so it’s not whitewashed )from white because it’s all about art and not Chinese money;)
Margaret Cho is not only painfully unfunny, but looks like an a-hole here.
Agreed. I think she was the wrong person for Tilda to reach out to.
But still… Tilda is the one reached out to HER? That’s not Margaret’s fault. I get that it’s uncool to share a story when the other person involved asked that it remain private. But the whole “don’t tell anyone” thing just adds another layer of gross here, to me. It’s like… “I’m going to contact you just because you’re Asian in order to be defensive over something that has nothing to do with you, and don’t tell anyone! I need you to validate my decisions but I don’t want anyone to know.” Margaret is calling her on her bullsh!t and I think it’s fair.
Imagine if a man was cast in lead role that was originally intended for a woman, and he received criticism for it. Then imagine that he calls up the first woman he can think of, simply because she’s a woman. And he says, “hey, I just need you to listen to all these reasons why it’s totally okay that the role went to me instead of a woman. And I need you to agree with me and make me feel better. And don’t tell anyone, because I don’t want anyone to know that I’m out-of-touch and whiny.”
Just because Tilda didn’t hear what she wanted to hear doesn’t mean she reached out to the wrong person.
@shambles. Tilda reached out, but Margaret Cho chose to speak about her opinion of the conversation.
And I honestly don’t get it. Why would you be upset that you do not get the opportunity to play a fictive character made up by white men completely wanting to create a racist stereotype? There’s no glory in performing as “The Wise One” from a comic book.
It’s 2016, there’s no place for those characters anymore. So for whatever reason they chose to recreate the background of the character, being monetary or actually in the right mindset. They made the right decision.
So if this is just about jobs, start picketing for characters in general. That’s the true problem; why does anyone in this time need a specific color when what you’re looking for is a specific character or the actual skills to play the part.
She contacted the person who was criticizing the casting publicly. I think Tilda missed the point entirely, but Cho is also being a straight up a-hole.
Bridget, brain freeze on my part, I didn’t remember that Cho had publicly criticized the casting. I took from the article that Tilda wanted to talk to an Asian actor for some perspective and a mutual friend introduced them. I was thinking that maybe she might have had a less contentious discussion with a different person.
Shambles, I hear you. I think Tilda’s heart was in the right place but ultimately it was about her wanting validation. And I think Cho has valid points but was a jerk and misleading about their conversation.
And of course Tilda didn’t get it. Think about it: just a few years prior Marvel had actually be praised for doing the exact same thing in Iron Man 3. Yet now she was being criticized and wanted to better understand.
it’s too bad that Cho didn’t say “hey something good is happening, someone is reaching out to be more than informed and ….” because when people don’t get it the last thing you want to do is lie about the tone of the conversations and dish your hurt feelings of being a servant etc.. perception and assumptions .. we shouldn’t expect Tilda and Matt Damon and Mark Wahlberg and Co to get it. they have to be explained other and other..One can’t expect that they will be THE person to open the mind of the interlocutor. It takes a village..
Off to Webster’s for interlocutor. I’ve never heard it before.
I feel like Margaret ruined an opportunity to lend credibility to a huge issue in the Asian community. She could have not lied about several aspects of it and honestly she said it was private it should have stayed that way.
Way to set back the cause and perpetuate the “sneaky asian” stereotype, Margaret. I want to be mad at Tilda, but where as she was tone deaf, she was trying. Now I highly doubt she’ll try again.
This. Clearly, Swinton has some privilege she needs to work on acknowledging but at least she was trying to understand Cho’s point of view. Unfortunately, that seems to be rare these days. But when those who want to learn, and want to be an ally to a minority community, are cut down for their efforts after the fact, it will end up acting as a deterrent to other potential allies who may want to reach out to another to learn their point of view.
I’ve seen comments on other websites that bash allies or potential allies for not being a perfect ally. I think that’s counterproductive and something we really can’t afford to do in our new Whitelash world.
“Perfect is the enemy of good.”
Voltaire
If as an ally your ego is so fragile as not to face criticism especially in comparison with what minorities and POC and some have to go through EVERYDAY. And makes you not want to fight for them….you were never an ally to begin with. You just wanted to be celebrated for being a savior.
No one has to be a perfect ally. But it would be nice if self described allies LISTENED when minorities speak instead of trying to fix their own egos as allies. As an ally I’ve had to learn that too. It’s important to be self critical and realize you have short comings as an ally. It’s important to not put your ego ahead of the very real issues you’re trying to fight.
@Miss Marierose
I don’t want to be a saviour to them, I want them to be recognised as equals. I really don’t really get it, sorry. It sounds like things count only when white people utters them.
And I agree with everything Drumpfed said above (great nickname, BTW!)
I don’t see it as “sneaky Asian stereotype” at all, I just see it as “famewhoring untrustworthy D-list behavior” stereotype. Many white D-listers. Have been guilty of the same thing.
Gene Demby (NPR, Code Switch) has been discussing this on Twitter for the last few days and it hits on the issue with Swinton’s emails right on the nose. The big thread starts here (https://twitter.com/GeeDee215/status/810085565790121984), though he’s added more thoughts this morning.
Also, to add: Has no one here ever been furious about something but had to respond in a diplomatic way? Cho’s responses read like the emails I’d send my boss when she yet again has no idea about the project she’s responsible for managing, keeping things polite and upbeat instead of the response I want to write (which would be laced with profanities).
Thank you for that thread, I’ve read a few of them on twitter and they really do hit the nail. It just seemed like a forced polite tone “what a pretty scarf you have, it was so in season two years ago”.
All the time. This is why I don’t “educate” on race anymore when people ask. It’s exhausting. I end up mad thinking about things. And ultimately it often leads to nothing new and I just wasted my breath.
And also with my boss because she understands nothing and thinks we can get things done on a two person team that requires at least 4-5 people in the time she wants
Re: educating: Most of the time it’s about something that the question asker could have looked up on his/her own. Like here, if Swindon can email, then she certainly could have Googled it?! It’s not as if no one has ever written about minority representation in the arts before.
Exactly. It goes back to minorities doing ALL the heavy lifting when you can use google. I said the same thing before…its another way racism burdens us.
Thank you for posting that thread, it sums up very well what’s right and wrong with the whole situation in my opinion.
“Has no one here ever been furious about something but had to respond in a diplomatic way?”
Several times, mostly in the work place. I’ve dealt with a few situations where people asked me ignorant questions that made me feel like a kindergarten teacher. After a while I just refused to engage, just answered blandly.
I’m sure we all have. But Swinton isn’t Cho’s boss. Sincere question … why would Cho feel deferential toward Swinton? Why play nice to her face, then rip her apart when out of the conversation?
I’ve definitely been in that place where I have to explain politely to someone a topic that centers around race and they just don’t get it but as a POC I’m expected to be absolutely exceptional in my behavior so I act polite. It’s like they enter the conversation only to seek validation and when they don’t get a pat on the back they get frustrated. I’m glad you posted the link to Gene Demby’s original tweets because he perfectly addresses why Tilda’s e-mails do not invalidate what Margaret originally said. It doesn’t matter if Tilda approached Margaret nicely and with good intentions. In her e-mail she just goes on and on about HER feelings. And Tilda mentioning that she’s producing a movie with an Asian cast is basically the “I’m not racist I have a black friend” excuse. And it doesn’t matter how well meaning Tilda was trying to be because in the end she still played the role and she still tried to justify it after it was released.
Agreed. Tilda sounds like an a-hole here. She sounds like one of those trolls who ask you to explain and claim they don’t understand something but then use your time to try to wear you down so they can not learn and be right about what they actually think. Tilda could have done a google search and she would have found articles saying why her choice was wrong. She didn’t. Instead, she went to a person in the community she offended and continued to whitesplain all over it in the guise of learning.
This happens all the time. Cho doesn’t have to put up with it. Just because Tilda fits the ideals of ‘well meaning’ and ‘polite’ to many people here does not mean she is in the right. She’s not.
@G Agreed. I know I’ve met those trolls who approach me with a question regarding race and they try to play dumb but they’re just looking for a specific answer and if they don’t get it, they wear you down with idiotic offensive comments. And if Tilda was going to waste Margaret’s time like that at least compensate her for her time and effort.
Swinton sounds privileged and clueless. But Cho was under NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to engage. She chose to, and she agreed to keep it confidential. If you’re going to break that promise, at least be smart enough not to lie about it, especially when the emails exist to prove you a liar. Cho clearly didn’t think Swinton would make them public, but when someone throws you under the bus…
Then you would have lambasted Cho for not helping Swinton become more informed about the issue. See what I wrote below.
Cho is talking about her perspective when she had this discussion. As I said, a superficially polite conversation can have hostile undertones.
Not at all. Swinton has always come off clueless. And privileged. See my other comments. And Swinton has access to email, so she could have easily accessed the internet to do her own research on the matter, like many of us non-special non-Tilda’s do when we want to learn more about something.
And Cho feels that the exchange was hostile, fine. Her choice of words in the emails were not, and since tone of voice does not come through in emails, are you now putting an onus on Swinton to be a mindreader as well? Cho was polite in her choice of words, and if Swinton had chosen to read hostility between the libes, would you would slam her for that?
We agree that Swinton is ignorant. However, I don’t think you’re getting what I said at all.
(1) You said that “Cho was under no obligation to engage.” I’m saying that she would have been slammed no matter what she did. If she didn’t engage, then she would have been seen as forfeiting an opportunity to make Swinton aware. No matter what Cho did (not engage, engage but show frustration, engage and suggest Swinton do her own research, engage and be polite), Cho would have been thought to be in the wrong – either she’s not helping Swinton learn or she’s holding back too much in being polite.
(2) You said Cho lied about the exchange. I’m saying that I don’t think Cho is lying. This is because in the podcast, Cho is saying that she *felt* that it was a frustrating exchange and talked about how Swinton’s comments *came across as to Cho*. Cho is polite in the emails, but Cho is also angry – this gets to what I said before, that sometimes people feel angry but feel that they need to be polite.
So Tilda wanted absolution and was deaf to the answers to the questions she was asked because privilege. Colour me surprised.
Cho was far too polite in the email conversation with Tilda, which gave Tilda the self-justification she was after. Then repeated a conversation she had promised to keep private and exaggerated some of the details. I understand her frustration but she handled it badly.
Neither person comes out well. But at least Cho is in the right on the substance of the actual topic at hand.
Is it actually okay to shame and blame white actors for taking roles for asian characters?
If you mean: is it ok to criticise Tilda Swinton for being a clueless woman of privilege along almost every inequality fault line in existence, then yes. It is.
Agree Sixer.
@Sixer Why? Because if you can’t educate someone about the point you’re trying to make to a person who is actually reaching out (even if it is for self justification), then that says something about your knowledge of the matter. If you feel strongly about a subject, you should find ways to make it clear to anyone, but especially to someone wanting to learn.
Cultural diversity should not be about slamming others.
And again, where is the glory in performing the part of a fictive character made up by white dudes thinking up the best racist stereotype they could? Really?
Mieke – see Marty, below. It’s the responsibility of the supplicant to listen to answers when they ask a question. Not the other way around.
Also, please read what I’ve actually said. I’ve criticised Swinton for reaching out with no real intention to hear answers that impacted her self image. I’ve criticised Cho for the timidity of her responses to Swinton, which allowed Swinton the room to pretend to herself that she’d been self-critical when she had been nothing of the kind.
Which is the criticism you don’t think I should make?
I don’t see why not since Tilda took the role for a reason: to further her career, fame, and bank account. The choices you make have consequences whether you think you should only be praised for your decisions. Had she not been so oblivious and turned down the role, she wouldn’t be facing the backlash she is getting now. However, she probably thought the benefits of her decision outweighed whatever potential criticism she would receive, or she didn’t think her decision would reap any consequences (much like her decision to sign the Polanski petition, or Matt Damon, Emma Stone, and Scarlett Johansson’s role choices). These people are all grown ups, so stop acting like they are too ignorant to make well informed decisions that may affect their image or career.
Thank you, Sixer!
I see a lot of people on here giving props to Tilda for “reaching out” but here’s the thing- what’s the point if she was just going to be dismissive and whitesplain to Cho?
It’s not up to PoC to make society care about us, or our issues. And I don’t really see the point in this conversation if Tilda was going to be dismissive in public as well. How does that help the issue? But I’m sure she gave herself a pat on the back for engaging in an e-mail conversation.
I’m white and it does my head in, Marty. So eff alone knows what it’s like for you!
I read Tilda’s emails. The really sad thing is that I actually believe Marvel’s “good” intentions vis a vis diversity. The trouble is that it NEVER OCCURRED to them that it’s more than a tick box exercise and writing in a character doesn’t balance out writing out another one.
You know, I think it’s a liberal problem, this inability to go beyond self image. Liberal white people do it to POC. Liberal men do it to women. Liberal straight people do it to gay people. Etc ad infinitum. The self image as a “good” person is so unshakeable it disallows any degree of reflection or self examination.
Thanks for getting it, even from your privilege as a white woman. And it’s true that we all operate from a place of privilege to some extent – regardless of whether we’re liberal or not; white; or Asian (as I am); or straight. Even within the black community, how light your skin color can create certain privilege vis a vis others. I don’t know what its like to face the discrimination of a black person or someone who’s gay but I do know what it’s like as an Asian american woman. I don’t pretend to know another’s experience and acknowledge that.
I think Tilda is mostly sincere though – even though it seemed more like she was saying “hey this is why the casting wasn’t racist” instead of “explain to me why people are upset.” The problem with Tilda’s emails is that she didn’t seem truly open to listening as much as she was looking to defend her and Marvel’s position. unfortunately Margaret sort of white-washed her true feelings too.
Re: the casting, it most be so totally upsetting to deal with the few Asian roles going to white actors, but I did think that how Tilda explained it made it seem less offensive. Generally if we can move toward more color-blind casting overall (e.g. Lucy Liu in the watson role), I’ve got no problem with roles going to actors who aren’t of the race/gender of the role as originally conceived. The issue is that we aren’t there yet.
totally agree that margaret’s politeness in the written email did not help to get her point across to tilda, who is clueless. but I don’t think she exaggerated that much in the re-telling, because like kaiser pointed out, she kept using the words “I felt like …” it’s like when someone at work sends you some dumb email and you’re all “wtf? THIS BITCH …” but then you reply super professionally because you kind of have to. lol.
You’re amazing. Thank you for getting it.
I thought that Cho danced around the issue too much and that Swinton really didn’t get what she was saying. The ‘well it’s a big issue and you’re getting the brunt of it because of bad timing’ and ‘Scarlett’s getting similar criticism too’ were just to soften the point. Cho was happy to be critical on Twitter, but when directly contacted she took a much different tone.
Margaret Cho is not required to be anyone’s racial guide. But she wanted to be a spokesperson, and yet not off of Twitter or in a format where the other person can engage with her. Which is her choice.
Perfectly stated, Sixer!
I think Cho missed the point on the criticism aimed at her. Nobody is mad that she’s mad about whitewashing. It’s that she lied about the conversation
Here’s the thing though we are tired. There’s think pieces that also provide first hand experience after experience. I follow black activists on twitter and they have threads pinned to the top of their accounts. You can google it. Because ultimately a lot of us are exhausted and to explain first accounts of racism is also triggering. I say this as someone who has recently been triggered myself for the first time ever trying to explain something. As if we aren’t tired enough.
Now does this mean I won’t have meaningful dialogue with people on race? No I still do because a lot of my friends (white, black, hispanic, asian) are good at providing dialogue and their own info. But no I’m over educating people that just want ME to do their work for them (ie not you). Trust me we know the difference
That’s the point, isn’t it? Tilda was asking the questions. But was she really listening to the answers? No, cos it didn’t suit her self image to do so. I can imagine how tiring that must be.
Nicole/Sixer- I went and edited my comment before I saw you replied. Apologies that it totally changed on you. Weird that the system lets you do that!
I changed it because I know there is a difference and I’m sure you get more people wanting you to do the heavy lifting for them. You don’t need me whitesplaining to you that meaningful conversations are meaningful.
It reminds me of the threads on black women and their hair, cultural appropriation. Even after i don’t know many controversies, there are people out there claiming they don’t understand. Well, I’m done understanding.
As a POC who once didn’t believe in feminism, gay rights, or anything “liberal.” I googled all these issues. I read the works of gay writers, black men and women, Asian men and women, why representation is important, the arguments for all areas of feminism, etc, etc, etc. I read comments on very well thought out sites to get new perspectives because all these issues bring out some of the worst of humanity and you really realize what you’re dealing with. What POC deal with. What women deal with. And I learned to empathize with the people affected by these important issues. I learned a great deal and was able to divorce my self from my own ego which can be impossible to do in person when you really want this minority to know how “you’re not like all the rest.” It is exhausting to them and they don’t want to deal with another person that is on the defensive and isn’t listening. Don’t put your ego ahead of their mental health. Also quite frankly they cannot tell you as eloquently as people trained to write that’s another reason they prefer us to google it. If you truly truly care youll always do the research it takes for an issue close to your heart. You can still talk to a bunch of people and stillrealizeoh if they’re telling me to google it then it must be a topic that’s been written about a lot anyways and they’re tired of explaining so I should research it.
The appropriate answer to you is to google it. Don’t take offense to that just read what POC are saying. What minorities are saying. What some are saying. Then see the utter garbage they receive to see what the other side is saying because it can sometimes be just as fruitful education. well unless you fall for fake news nonsense. Idk what to do with that person. Truthfully thougjh you seem like someone who has empathy for the minority side so I doubt you’d fall for fake news. But I also don’t know anymore with this garbage world.
Signed a WOC who did google it and read complex articles and even the comments and had a majorly fruitful education.
Also Tilda is still trash guys. Never forget she signed that Polanski petition.
I saw Doctor Strange and the movie was brilliant. And yes, Swinton was cast brilliantly and did a marvellous job. In the end the actor must deliver and she did.
As for the underrepresentation of Asians: yes, that needs to be changed. Although if you want proportional representation then only 5.6% of all movie characters should be asian.
I’m pretty sure there’s more than 5,6% of Asians in the world.
USA is about 5.6% Asians. So that would be 5.6% Asians in US movies.
@Bitchy
So the only country that counts in the world is USA?
I don’t think the investors are all American either and there are bigger markets than USA at the moment. When movies are made nowadays, producers have a global audience in mind.
I wouldn’t mind, as an European, to see characters of all races represented in different movies and without necessarily stereotyping them.
But the character was not American. US movies rarely only portray American people, even if I sometimes think they should because they rarely portray others in a non-stereotyped way.
Bitchy, where do you get 5.6%? China alone comprises 20% of the world’s population.
EaSt Asia produces so many movies. Maybe more than 20% of the worlds movies even? It’s more a problem for “Asians” who are from the west. But lots of them are doing great work. Love master of none ! I feel like the wheels are in motion already
Hollywood made movies?
I mean, nobody asked for proportional representation. That’s not what anybody is saying. I really hope that’s not what you’re getting from all of this.
But if we’re going to go by that, Asians only get <1% of lead roles in Hollywood. So that's….less than….that.
It’s a shame Cho so misrepresented …. oh hell let’s be real she outright lied about the conversation because Asian whitewashing is a fairgame topic. Tilda, it seems to me, was focused on the feminist angle. ie A women playing the stereotypical ‘wise old man” role because, yes, women can be purveyors of ancient wisdom too. That’s an equally worthy matter, just not the one Cho cares about.
this is peak white feminism. White women stealing from women of color and then expecting us to be happy. i think not.
She’s a white women, so yeah obviously white feminism is her fight. Were you expecting something else?
So Cho says “Asian actors should play Asian roles. I believe my emails stand on their own and should be taken for the spirit in which they were intended” Yeah, I can see that. But then again, there was more than just one race-switch in that movie; Mordo was kinda whitebread in the comics.
To add yet another point, I think (white) people would have looked at Cho negatively however she handled the situation:
(1) If Cho didn’t respond, then Swinton would be all “well, I tried to learn more about it by contacting Cho, but she wouldn’t engage. How am I supposed to learn! I am just a 55 year old [Cambridge-educated] woman living in the Scottish Highlands!”
(2) If Cho suggested that Swinton do her own research, then see (1).
(3) If Cho got even the slightest bit overtly frustrated/other negative emotion with Swinton in the conversation, then see (1).
(4) If Cho tried to politely explain, but Swinton was clearly more interested in her feelings than in Cho’s points, and then Cho talked about frustrated she felt during the interaction, then she’s branded a liar to the “classy, elegant, polite” Swinton, who “only wanted to learn and engage.” If I contacted someone I didn’t know about an issue that I could have easily read up on myself, and if I went out of my way to ignore his/her points and OhDear-splain why they are wrong *even though I specifically asked them to explain the issue to me*, then that person has every right to be pissed off.
There are Asians in the Scottish Highlands, I lived there for nearly three years (actually a lot more northern than her place, which is near Nairn).
The fact she doesn’t mingle with the local plebs should be no excuse for failing to notice that….
LOL!
The only reason we are discussing this story on a gossip site is because Cho publicly mischaracterized a private email exchange in manner harmful to Swinton’s reputation and career. Had Cho not name-dropped Swinton, none of us would know or care how Cho responded to Swinton. Cho’s emails aren’t the problem. Lying about private communications to get a laugh on a podcast is the problem.
I find it difficult to see how Tilda Swinton’s career and reputation could be even slightly damaged by Cho. It’s like saying Johnny Depp’s career was harmed by his ex wife…..
I had never heard of Cho before reading this story on Celebitchy.
I think this could be a case of when having a conversation, it seems like it went ok at first blush but when you go back and think about it, the reality of what was said hits you like, ‘wait a second, that was pretty f*cked up conversation.’
Tilda was very charming and complimentary but that doesn’t excuse the ‘explaining’ she does. That second email was just… oof. It clearly pissed Cho off.
Not to mention having a conversation about racism and whitewashing in Hollywood over email? Where you can’t tell the tone or discuss nuance? That’s like the most base thing you can do to have a ‘conversation’. It’s kind of the due diligence type of discussion. Well, I emailed this person, I did MY part. Tilda probably thought the exchange was fine. Cho obviously did not.
I disagree that Swinton asked Cho to keep it secret – when she said “private” I inferred that she meant ‘off of Twitter’, which was where Cho had been vociferously criticising in the first place.
I don’t agree with Tilda’s reasoning as to why they changed the character, but appreciate that she directly contacted Cho and asked to learn more. Cho referring to herself as “The House Asian” glosses over the fact that she was the one speaking up publicly and THAT was why Swinton directly engaged her, not because she randomly chose an Asian performer out of a hat.
Or Tilda wanted the most vocal opponent to realize how wrong they were and rubber stamp tilda with a seal of approval so that even the most famous/vocal detractor realized how tilda is such a “dedicated real and good” ally. I’m so livid now. The mediocre standard to which Tilda is held to is ASTOUNDING. She’s a freaking Cambridge educated Rich British woman. She can read. She MUST have been taught how to research she must know how to do thoughtful critical analysis. If my butt can do it with my degree from a no name college in the middle of nowhere. TS can get off her lazy butt and do the same. But obviously we put her intelligence way above how own when we shouldn’t have to. TS did Wat every ally who has ever been criticized does. Get offended that us lesser beings aren’t bowing down to our savior.
Oh and she signed the Polanski petition. How is she still someone you guys love without reservation? Raise your standard and see her for what she is. Truly a basic wolf in sheeps clothing.
@Drumpfed
A college-educated rich woman is not necessarily informed. I think many, even in the university environment, tend to like, integrate or meet with people within their class.
She always lived in a bubble and education didn’t change that.
@silverunicorn For sure. I’m sayin she needs to be held to a much higher standard than what people are holding her too here because she has the ability to critically think/analyze her sh-t. She was trained to do and instead her education, etc is just a status symbol for her no? TS is failing hard and everyone wants to make her feel better about it because she was nice? No she was doing what a lot of allies tend to do. Use this ally label as a badge of honor to show how open minded, different, and progressive they are without ever really working to understand these issues. Reach out to show an action of good faith to someone who was criticizing her and adding on to her own ego by being defensive.
Seriously she’s basic af. Born on third. Wants to believe she gets what it’s like to be born in the pit waiting for your turn. Oh and that she can show us how to do it all the right way.
Tilda didn’t get it. That much is clear. But what bothers me is that the way Cho misrepresented herself and her argument takes away from the issue. She wants to be a voice for diversity but can’t even explain to Swinton why what she did was wrong? Yes, Asians should be playing Asian parts. How about explaining why this got flak when Iron Man 3 didn’t? That perhaps it was the very way IM3 was celebrated that contributed to this very backlash? Instead of ‘Scarlet is getting the same treatment’ point out that this isn’t happening in a vacuum, and you caant cancel out choosing to exclude an under-represented group on film by having the new character played by a woman. I can’t help but feel that had Tilda reached out to someone like Constance Wu instead she would have gotten a much better thought out answer, whereas what frustrates me is that Cho seems more interested in soundbytes.
@Bridget Diplomacy is a thing minorities have to do everyday when talking about this. You KNOW women have to do it too. We’re forced to walk on eggshells and explain things “honestly” whilst putting the feelings of the individual over the issues because we want to convince them of our side. Frankly, I don’t think Cho mischaracterized it in soundbytes at all. I get where she’s coming from and how Cho is saying she felt she had to be TS’s validation that make sure TS knew that Cho knew that TS is actually a good person.
I expect Swinton to do her own research and refuse to back down from that position. I bet for sure that woman has used the internet to explore/research her roles. Why can she not do it for other issues? And yet your suggestion isn’t Swinton should actually read. Your frustration is she shouldn’t have gone to Cho, but someone like Wu instead because……Wu can say it better? So WOC are still the ones tasked and burdened with making sure they can deliver the message eloquently? Seriously why? Not all of us are good at it. Swinton can just read Constance Wu’s instagram account to see what Wu is saying. Wu has indeed talked about it before. Go read the voices of Asian women to see what they say. To be very frank, Swinton needs to pull her head out of her arse and do the legwork instead of expecting everyone else to have to explain it to her in a personal conversation where she expects them to also reassure her and validate her special snowflakeness.
It’s not a PR problem Tilda. You just ended up participating in something problematic. Like that petition (will never let that go nor will I normalize it so Wenders, Aronofsky, Mendes, Anderson, etc are all sh-t).
I’m not a particular Swinton fan (though at the time half of Hollywood signed that stupid Polanski petition because he had some really connected people speaking up for him and actively recruiting people to sign – stupid, stupid) but I also immensely dislike Margaret Cho and have very little trust for her. Yes, Swinton missed the entire point. But I also think Cho willfully mischaracterized the discussion.
And I do understand your point, and I respect your right to interpret Cho’s words in the way that you do. Nor do I deny that Tilda Swinton completely missed the point. I simply disagree.
Everyone up the thread praising Tilda for “trying” and chastising Margaret for being “mean”. So Tilda gets a pat on the back for minimal effort that’s still harmful and Margaret, the target of the harmful behavior, has to play “nice” or else she’s undeserving of basic humanity? FOH! The white privilege is real. Our abuser white supremacy gets brownie points for not hitting us as hard as they could have and we’re asked to speak on it nicely or else we don’t get to have a point. How hard would it to have written a script that wasn’t stereotypical but still Asian? They don’t even try. Maybe Emma Stone could have played the role since she’s Hawaiian and Asian in Hollywood 😂😂
YAS KWEEN!!!
lol at Emma Stone. My favorite asian actress.
Speak it.
Yes!
It looked very “ucky” to me that Swinton sidles up to Margaret trying to hit her up for validation, and Margaret is not her friend. Ask your friends for validation. Or go to the official spokesperson for Asian actors, lay your case and accept their decision. Don’t hit up somebody like they owe it to you to be your friend when they do not.
exactly. Swinton wanted a token justification for doing something in her gut A) at best, she knew was problematic or B) worse, didn’t care but wanted absolution for public relations. she DID want as Cho says to Lee, the token justification if anyone gave her issue, “But Margaret Cho said it was okay!” and i’m sorry it is NOT Margaret Cho’s responsibility to be the more awesome person here—i hate that doubling down of privilege—Tilda being perceived that she did her due diligence and Cho is getting critiqued for her handling of it? what? Cho did not ask to be the representative of all Asians and its not on her to educate Swinton–a very intelligent woman who can read and think and observe past tales of yellow face in hollywood.
I feel like Margaret could have done some real good here, a real chance to help someone understand, regardless of why Tilda emailed in the first place. Whether for validation or to actually learn, Margaret made the choice how she responded and I feel she did not help her point of view at all, whereas it could have been such a positive exchange.
Tilda should come here, if she seeks to understand. So many brilliant, kind, reasonable, positive, respectful posters that take the time to help, rather than seek to disparage.
Celebitches, who is your favorite Asian-American actress : Scarlett Johansson, Emma Stone or Tilda ?
Michelle Yeoh. I don’t care about the American part at all, sorry.
Let’s go old school and say Katherine Hepburn.
LOL. Good one, and good point. I’m with SilverUnicorn, Michelle Yeoh is amazing.
And I still can’t wrap my mind around the Johanssen casting. Nerdstravaganza did a great podcast on the subject.
Zhang Ziyi. I sort of want to say Atsuko Asano because I watch Heaven and Earth on average three times a year.
Don’t forget that the source material. It’s incredibly flawed, messed up, and racist and I just don’t believe all old, racist stories, characters, or comics are worth revamping. Sure, Marvel will do it as long as there’s money to be made, but, just, yuck.
I mean, I suppose someone could try and make a non-racist update of Song of the South, but I doubt it could work. And, why? Can we hope to subvert these racist tropes? Maybe we should simply abandon them and start over with some new stories.
I love so many Asian films with Asian actors, there’s great talent out there.
ITAWY! Is it ‘whitewashing’ when the original character was completely made up to fit into a fantastical world, very probably based on very ignorant stereotypes, and in no way resembling any actual person or well known and beloved literary character? They replaced one bs incarnation with another… but the comic book incarnation was pretty terrible and completely absurd to begin with. It’s like in opera, when you have ‘oriental’ characters like Turandot and Cio-Cio-San: no one insists they should only be sung by Asian sopranos… honestly I think it would be more insulting to be made to identify with old, terrible stereotypes.
And yes, there are so many excellent Asian actors and directors, and their talent is now finally being recognised beyond cinephile circles – no one needs to play Fu Manchu for Marvel any longer!
I see that Celebitchy is about to snatch that crown for 2016 Peak White Feminism from Jezebel.
The problem is that (many/most) white people think that something is ignorant/racist/other -ist that’s not sexist only if it’s overt – for example, burn a cross, shout an epithet, assault and battery. They think that ignorant people only look like Trump and his supporters, not people that they like/relate to/are like them.
They don’t want to see it from Cho’s perspective because they would have done what Swinton did. They want to talk about race (or whatever other issue relating to a minority (racial or otherwise) group) in a way that’s “safe” – that makes them feel comfortable, where they don’t have to admit fault, where they don’t have to actually *do* anything, that they’re still *good* and *woke*. IMO it’s extremely hypocritical, as the reactions would have been a lot different had Swinton been a man asking about female representation in the arts.
What they also don’t get is that Swinton may have meant well when she contacted Cho, but since when did intent take away from the result? For example, if someone accidentally runs me over, I’m still stuck with the same injuries had it been done on purpose.
I don’t know why it’s so hard to understand Cho’s perspective. I found her to be pretty clear. I think the person receiving the message wasn’t listening with purpose. And this casting decision was never going to be popular, that should have been obvious. Marvel didn’t try to cast the role in a way that would track more to the character, and that was a failure on their part.
The issue is also the “but Cho lied” narrative – a lot of the comments seem to be “well, Swinton seems ignorant, BUT WHAT WAS SWINTON SUPPOSED TO DO CHO DIDN’T HAVE TO TALK TO HER AND CHO LIED AND WANTS ATTENTION HOW DARE SHE.” The focus is almost all on Cho’s supposed wrongdoing, not how Swinton clearly is more interested in being *seen* as aware instead of actually learning and working on *being* aware. Cho is being trashed for something IMO that she didn’t do; Swinton is getting the benefit of the doubt for doing the bare minimum (being polite to someone she doesn’t know when asking for a favor).
@OhDear- How can you claim that “Swinton clearly is more interested in being *seen* as aware”? This was a *private* conversation, and we only know about it because of Cho’s name-dropping.
Let’s not infantilize Cho, who is an outspoken comic and advocate. Yes, Cho had the power to tell their mutual friend that she didn’t want to privately communicate with Swinton. She also had the power to respond differently to Swinton’s emails. There was no career risk to privately rebuffing or criticizing Swinton.
@Sam – re: Swinton wants to be seen as being good: in the emails Swinton asks Cho to explain why her casting was controversial but shoots down Cho’s explanations. Swinton also released the emails as an attempt to make it seem like a mic drop, that Swinton wasn’t at best being willfully obtuse and ignorant as Cho said she was.
Kate, I don’t know how long you’ve been posting here, but CB is a place where people actually have constructive discussion in respectful voices. We treat each other with respect and call out trolls. Go back and read ALL the comments here. Very few are “peak white feminism,” and many of them involve seeing things from other posters’ perspectives. This place isn’t even coming close to the garbage that one can find on other sites.
So sorry that bothers you. Perhaps you would prefer the comments over at the Daily Fail.
What you are doing with the tone policing is not respectful. What Tilda did is not respectful. Calling Margaret Cho “mean” while praising Tilda as if she is some kind of child is who just discovered racial representation issues in Hollywood is not respectful (not even to her) I’m really tired of white women being respectful to women of color to our faces and then stabbing us in the back.
Is it not best to create rather than talk about how worthy you are? Then it’s going to become obvious that not many people think you are. Since Hollywood is all about creating illusions why become disillusioned and think it’s mostly about money? The fact that it is should be implicit. What is the point of creating a costly movie that not many people are going to pay to see?
I wonder how many of the people decrying the whitewashing in Hollywood watch non-Englush speaking films? “We want diversity in film but they better speak English, god damn it!!’
Huh, good point.
I am also sort of understanding and not understanding why the onus is on Hollywood to represent everyone. I understand it because Hollywood dominates movie theaters world-wide, so they sort of have a global appeal and, therefore, a global responsibility. At the same time, Hollywood IS American. Asians comprise about 5-6% of American population. I don’t really know, but I think that surely we have 5-6% of Asian actors in Hollywood movies? And is it really that much of a mystery why Hollywood mostly casts white characters as leads? I mean, we’re barely getting around to casting WOMEN as leads, and women are a slight MAJORITY, as far as I know. I think it will be a while before minority leads are on par with white leads.
In the meantime, let us continue to make Chinese movies with Chinese leads, Indian movies with Indian leads, Russian movies with Russian leads? They may not be as high budget as Hollywood movies, and not all of them will go mainstream, but really, with the size of China, anything that makes it big there is already quite mainstream, numbers-wise. And big budgets don’t always translate into interesting movies. Personally, I thought Doctor Strange was a disappointment, I wasn’t even particularly fond of special effects, let alone story, dialogue, etc.
I am not a huge fan of martial arts movies that seem to be the main Chinese export in the US, but I have seen a number of beautiful Asian dramas over the years, maybe push and promote those, rather than fret over when Hollywood will cast an Asian actor as a romantic lead?
Hollywood has <1% of Asians in lead roles, sorry. So even 5-6%, which is a pitiful number, is not the number Hollywood is casting.
The point is nothing, no matter if it is as big as Bollywood or Chinese film, is as far-reaching or as influential or as money-making as Hollywood films. The only movies we've witnessed that make billions of dollars and are seen by the most people in the most markets are Hollywood movies. Influence is key. Cultural impact is key. There is an opportunity here for social messaging and inspiring people all over the world. And since the U.S. is diverse, and Hollywood is a product of American culture and the American people, why doesn't Hollywood reflect ALL Americans, including POC. That's what POC want. I believe you did start to make that point.
But Asian dramas are not featuring Asian-Americans. So that's the problem with those foreign markets. They are not obliged to represent American POC. Hollywood should be.
I don’t care for Tilda all that much
WOW
What an amazing page of comments.
**Lifts glass of seltzer and cranberry juice**
Cheers to the wonderful posters who put together an amazing conversation about gender, privilege, race and Hollywood. And no one got hurt.
I fall in the gap with those who sigh…..then sigh again.
I LOVE Tilda, She is an amazing actress. I have not seen the movie.
But this behavior around race is infuriating.
What Tilda did was callous and ignorant and flooded with the river De’nial.
Cho was being Cho. :-}
Hysterically funny and upsetting and serious all at the same time.
Also a lot of animated films are more successful than live action ones. I wonder how actors feel about that.
They’re both trash
All great, thought-provoking comments. I also feel, as with so many things, so much is lost when discussing disagreements in email. Imagine how much more powerful and effective it would be to have had this conversation in person, over lunch? You would hopefully be so much more inclined to pause and really see the reality of how the other person/perspective is feeling! Empathy gets lost in email. If Tilda had met with her (or someone else) in person, perhaps she would have gained a better understanding and been less inclined to be defensive/closed off. After all, in person you still have to be polite.
I notice when people protest this casting the only names I’ve seen offered as who should’ve played the part are Asians males. I’d love to see some suggestions for Asian females in the role. I’ve had a few come to mind but I’m sure others have better suggestions. Ideas?
This means that Swunton takes her responsibility as an person who is involved in movies seriously and yeah ” do not tell anone” usually means do not tell any one. Cho looks good here! Better then i thought.
Meanwhile Swinton gets more attention for her overrated self,
I think the whitewashing here is more complicated than usual because it was actually done with the intent of NOT offending the Chinese rather than in service of appealing to whites, but it’s problematic in that it yet again limited the roles available for non-white minorities. It’s still uncomfortable to me that she sought out a “notable” Asian American woman as the representative of the issue. I like Tilda, but our privileges are something we all need to become more aware of in the current political climate.
It must be so exhausting to be famous. No matter what you do everyone is going to be pissed off. The interesting thing about the emails is they diversified the cast a bunch from the original material.
I wonder how many of us wouldn’t take a job we wanted, or step aside for a promotion, give up an apartment etc. in the name of diversity? Even if she did there would be no guarantee it would have gone to an Asian actor. That’s just the sad truth.
The onus isn’t on the actors it’s on the producers and the studios. it’s not even the writer, many friends of mine have had their work changed to different ethnicities, ages or even sexes.