SPOILERS for Game of Thrones Episode 7.5, “Eastwatch.”
True story: I actually totally missed Cersei’s big reveal/lie? I didn’t realize that Cersei was all “Papa Don’t Preach, I’m Keeping My Incest Baby” until this morning, as I was researching the episode. Like, I missed a lot of stuff, you guys? What was I doing last night as I watched Game of Thrones? Was I thinking about butterflies?? No. I was thinking about Gendry’s hot ass and I think I was also yelling at the TV about many other things. Anyway, here’s the recap, just keep in mind that I was apparently not paying great attention last night.
Guess who survived? Jaime Lannister and Bronn survived the dragon attack. Jaime is all “wow, those dragons are for real tho” and Bronn was like “Sho nuff.” There’s some talk about how Bronn is still just in it for the money, but no one is buying it at this point. Jaime returns to Kings Landing and he tells Cersei that there’s no way to win this war with dragons. She’s like ha, okay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Poor, Hot, Burnt Dickon Tarly. Dany stands before the surviving Lannister army and gives them a choice: they can bend the knee or they can die. Drogon is there to remind people that bending the knee involves dragons, bitches. Still, Lord Tarly and his son refuse to bend the knee and Tyrion is all, maybe we should just send them to the Wall and Dany is like “nope.” She doesn’t behead the Tarlys, she says “dracarys” and Drogon burns them in a very controlled fire. Tyrion doesn’t like this, and Tyrion and Varys have a scene where they’re talking about how they don’t like how bloodthirsty Dany is.
The Three-Eyed Raven. Bran’s story is minimal, and yet he’s setting sh-t in motion. He warged into some ravens and watched the army of the undead marching towards Eastwatch. He tells Winterfell’s new Maester to send the ravens out.
Sam Tarly is done. The maesters are reading the news from all of the ravens and Sam overhears them reading Bran’s report about the army of the undead. Sam tries to convince everyone that it’s really happening. They’re like “Eh.” Later, Sam steals a bunch of books, loads up Gilly and Sam Jr and leaves Oldtown. Two important notes: he doesn’t know his father and brother are dead (making him the heir) and he didn’t let Gilly finish her incredibly important story about Rhaegar Targaryen’s annulment!!! THAT WAS IMPORTANT, SAM. AND YOU INTERRUPTED HER.
Jon Snow, Dragon Stepdad. Dany flies home to Dragonstone where Jon is just, like, hanging out on the cliff. Drogon could have set fire to Jon or pushed him off the cliff or anything, but instead Drogon let Jon touch his face with his bare hand. Drogon is cool with his new stepdad, okay?
Jorah made it to Dragonstone. Jorah is back, bitches, and the friendzoning never stops. Dany could have kissed him. Instead, she just uncomfortably embraced him. Jorah’s pretty happy to see his queen, and Jorah immediately is welcomed back into Dany’s circle of trust.
Plotting in Dragonstone. This is where I really began to lose the plot. To be fair, the show is losing the plot, right? I was down with the idea of Jamie and Tyrion seeing each other face to face, but the way that this crack team of Dany-advisors tried to plot about it just seemed… odd. Poorly explained. Why are they trying to reason with Mad Queen Cersei again?
Tyrion & Davos head to Kings Landing. The secret meeting with Jaime, I get. But still, the whole thing felt pretty poorly organized, and I would have loved a more emotional or funny meeting between Tyrion and Bronn. Instead, Bronn leads Jamie to a surprise meeting with Tyrion and the two best actors on the show somehow get through that stilted dialogue with their dignity intact.
GENDRY IS BACK, BITCHES. Fan-service, for sure. But we needed to see how this plot thread got resolved. Gendry has been in Kings Landing, making swords this whole time. Davos is like “I’m going to need you to–” and Gendry was like “I have my bags packed, let’s go, I’m down.” Gendry even kills two guards on their way out of Kings Landing.
Papa Don’t Preach. Cersei tells Jaime that she’s pregnant and Jaime was like “Oh, I met with Tyrion” and she’s like “if you ever betray me again, I’ll slice your face off.” She’s also going to tell people that Jaime is the father? That does not bode well.
Meanwhile, in Winterfell. Arya is trying to figure out what’s going on with Sansa, the Lady of Winterfell. The northern lords are getting restless and Littlefinger is plotting. Arya is basically stalking Littlefinger and long story short, she finds a letter that he seemingly wanted to keep hidden (but he totally wanted Arya to find because he’s obsessed with Stark women). The letter is a callback to Season 1, when Joffrey and Cersei made Sansa write a letter begging Catelyn & Robb to disavow Ned Stark. The gist is that Littlefinger seems to want to drive a wedge between Sansa and Arya.
Eastwatch. This plot is so stupid, even if seeing this motley crew assemble was sort of amazing. Jon, Jorah, Gendry and Davos go to Eastwatch, where Tormund has been guarding his part of the wall. Tormund thinks the plot sounds really stupid too, but he’s like “I’m in!” because he’s Tormund and he loves Jon Snow. Tormund even asks after Brienne too (love it), but he’s also like, hey, there are these guys, I caught them trying to sneak north of the wall. Those guys? The Hound, Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr. Now they’re all setting off on some Ocean’s Eleven-style caper north of the wall, because the plot is that they’ll bring back a White Walker to convince Maybe-Baby Cersei that sh-t is real.
Photos courtesy of HBO.
I’d take Sansa as Queen over Cersei and Daenerys any day. At least she seems level-headed.
This right here.
Yes.
This was a dumb episode…aside from the Tyrion/Jaime conversation and Tyrion/Varys conversation
And the Jon/Dragon moment and the Arya/Sansa standoff. For what it lacked in plot, it more than made up for in family drama.
Are we seriously not going to discuss the fact that JON SNOW is the heir apparent to the Seven Kingdoms?! Now there’s 3 people that could fight for the throne. If he finds out that is
He was reluctant enough to be called King in the North – I can’t see him fighting for the Iron Throne for ambition, only if Dany was to go full insane and him claiming his birth right would save the realm. The way they’ve been setting her up that seems like the logical direction the story will take. But first the love story, etc etc.
I think the show sets her up to go/fly north and fight alongside Jon. There were Dany and Jon parallels through out the seasons and this season they even hammered it explicitly into our heads that ~*~FIRE and ICE were brought together~*~. I just hope that there will be no fire+ice lovechild that will rescue humanity from the Terminators … hah … Whitewalkers.
*mankind (not humanity)
But there is a fire and ice child – Jon. He is the Song of Fire and Ice.
That is a possibility, yes. But only if Jon turns out to have some cool fire skills, probably? For example, Dany´s brother wasn´t fire — he was killed by it while Dany was all “fire does not kill a dragon har, har”… That is why I fear the possibility of season finale to be gloomy and deadly for everyone — except for the incest lovechild being a glimpse of hope.
@sendepause, Dany acquired those mad skillz when she traded the witch her unborn child’s life to save Khal Drogo–supposedly that rebounded and protected her while leaving him comatose. I don’t recall in the show if she showed those unburnt skills before, but in the book it was supposedly how she survived Drogo’s funeral pyre. Also, those skills should have only lasted the pyre; I don’t think she is able to withstand another burning episode. But, alas, the differences between the books and show.
@B Dany’s fire tolerance had nothing to do with the witch and everything to do with the fact that she is truly a Targaryen. She mentioned how her brother died the way he did only because he was not a true Targaryen and could not stand the fire and heat of the crown. She has had more than one serious encounter with fire that would have killed the average person. When she found Drogon after he had been on his own for while he initially tried to kill her. In the books she had her hair burned off by him. It even specified how she was only able to re-tame the dragon because of her fire resistance and standing her ground.
LOL yeah, like there are other plotlines, sure but this is kind of a big one. As Anitas said, I doubt he’d really want to be the king but it is a huge deal…he’s not a bastard! Technically he can call himself Jon Targaryen! Of course, if Sam had let Gilly finish then everyone might have known that sooner rather than later.
That said, I really hope they don’t go down the Jon and Dany road, I find it so icky. Just because the past Targaryens were all into incest doesn’t mean it has to happen now. I mean, it probably will, but ewwww.
The entire episode was so clunky, but that scene was the worst. Of all the books in the Citadel, Gilly just happens to be reading the one about Rhaegar’s annulment?
Also, how are six men going to find, capture, and transport an undead solider? Are there undead just roaming the countryside north of the wall?
I agree with you guys I don’t think he wants it. I think he may make a play for it if necessary. But yea I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned
And that love story is happening. But in their defense they don’t know they are related
The plans they came up with during that ep (secret meeting with Jamie, kidnapping a wight), so stupid. But the information divulged was EPIC. I can’t believe they just came out and legitimized Jon Snow! Damn! I mean, we’ve all been theorizing for a while that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne under one argument or another, but I didn’t expect them to come right out with it. I thought they’d drag it out some more. And Drogon showing Jon some love! Squeals!
The Jon/Dany love story is awful. Emilia C and Kit H have exactly ZERO chemistry. All those contrived, obvious “stolen” glances trying to set up this epic love story. They were horrible! Gah! Then enter Ser Jorah and BAM! Every TV tuned to HBO goes up in smoke. At this point, I’m pretty sure Iain Glen could project sizzling chemistry with a rock. Dayum. That, kids, is the difference between a consummate actor and two barely mediocre actors.
So, let’s talk about this pregnancy. I have a couple of alternate theories here. Obviously, Cersei knows she’s been losing Jamie’s loyalty lately. How to re-secure that loyalty? Well, the man does love his children. So let’s go jump his bones. Even if it doesn’t result in a pregnancy, she can lie about it to Jamie until she does become pregnant *cough* suspicious Qyburn meeting *cough*. then Jamie will double down on his Cersei loyalty. Even if he doesn’t believe in her, she knows he’ll do everything in his power to protect his supposed kid.
Gendry! Davos’ line about Gendry still rowing… that line was everything! Let’s be real, the writers read the message boards, and we’ve been wondering if Gendry is still rowing.
The writing is really suffering now that they’re off book. *Really* suffering. I hope they can pull it together and not make the end of this series horrible for all of us with clumsy dialogue and hastily thrown together plat lines to progress the story through to the end.
@Rachel, at the end of last season (or maybe the season before) the actor who plays Gendry tweeted “still rowing” so the writers incorporated that into the dialogue.
@Rachel I agree about the quality of the writing. All the clever quips, great dialogue, and compelling speeches of the first few seasons came straight from George R.R. Martin. Those have been largely absent since they left the books behind. The pacing this season has been particularly off. I feel like they’re just hitting the plot points from his outline and not giving us nuance, character development, or room to breathe. It feels like they’re rushing to the end so they can get to work on Confederate.
@rachel. I absolutely agree with you about Jorah. I have a crush on him, myself!
@Rachel I think the incest is gross, but Jorah is SUPER GROSS. He’s known her and been lusting after her since she was a child and based on the timeline, is old enough to be her grandfather. He’s a pedo. Iain Glenn is fine as hell, but his character is just so icky. I can’t believe I’m shipping incest, but Aunt and Nephew forever (I guess?) Barf.
What about the annulment? Us fans have for years speculated that Rhaegar Targaryen being a noble guy did not rape Lyanna Stark. That she became his second wife, since Targaryens in the past practiced polygamy. The annulment plot by the HBO writers is really stupid and sickening. It makes Rhaegar Targaryen that a-hole who disowns his wife (a Dornish princess) and TWO children in order to marry 15-year old Lyanna Stark. He left his wife and children in the RedKeep with his crazy Dad, supposedly for her own protection. If will now look like he secretly hoped his crazy Dad would burn his old family. It’s so sad because when the Targaryens lost, the Mountain brutally raped his wife before murdering her and he crushed her son’s head in and killed the daughter.
If that plot were true, it would have become the Dornish rebellion instead of Robert’s rebellion. You can’t just annul a long-term marriage to a Dornish Princess and disown your two children making her no better than a cucubine. House Dorn would be in open rebellion against the crown. The Targaryens never conquered Dorn. And why annual the marriage but hide out in Dorne? He would be a dead man. And how are the noble Starks going to feel about a man that abandons his oaths, how do they know he won’t do the same to Lyanna Stark when the next teenage girl to catch his fancy walks by?
It sounds like really bad fanfiction but not the kind fans would like. In GRRM’s book version Rhaegar loved his wife and children but his wife almost died giving birth to his last child, his son Aegon. He needed to have another child and decided to find a woman who can give him one. The dragon must have 3 heads according to a prophecy.
Maybe I’m looking at this the wrong way, but there was never any scenario in my mind in which Rhaegar was NOT an a-hole. However, royalty taking mistresses, and even divorcing or annulling their marriages is not a foreign concept. Take a look at history. Maybe they’re going to make the whole blinded by love argument. Or maybe Rhaegar was as crazy as his dad. I’m definitely starting to question Dany (for all her abolitionist pursuits, she’s not being so humanitarian at this point), and Viserys was certainly a selfish (and possibly mentally unstable) individual. So maybe you’re putting a little too much faith in a Targ’s ability to reason through the consequences of their actions.
Although you do make an excellent point about hiding her in Dorne. Although, maybe it was one of those “last place they’ll look” kind of things.
@Rachel,
You are right, Real royals annulled marriages in history, however it was usually to gain more power or to get a male heir which again increases their power. In Westeros royalty, only the Dornish were considered the most equal to the Targaryens, because Dorn was the only region the Targs failed to conquer. They never bent the knees to the Targaryens, their house words are “Unbent, unbowed and unbroken”. So the Targaryen princes and Princesses initially only married themselves or married a Dornish royal. Younger sons and daughters would eventually marry other lesser houses but it was rare for the next heir to do so. Cersei tried to marry Rhaeger but a Lannister is beneath a Martell in standing. As is house Stark.
Additionally Rhaeger already had a male heir from his wife-Prince Aegon. So his annulment would *decrease* his power. The fan theory was that he would add to his power base by taking on a second wife to fulfill the prophecy of needing to have 3 children. Other things written about Rhaeger and Lyanna contradicts the “annulment plot”. It’s inconsistent with their character.
@ Original T C
Welldone! Its my opinion that the series is incapable of providing the nuances and history that will enable the average series watcher appreciate GRRM genius storytelling/ world building.The only amendment I’ll make to your comment is that Rheagar was said to the fond of Elia. It wasn’t some epic love story. Also his kidnapping/elopement of Lyanna I doubt had very little to do with love and more to do with Targaryen obsession with prophesy. Remember that they only survived the doom of Valyria because an ancestress had a dream about it. Rheagar thought he was ” the prince who was promised” when it dawned on him that he wasn’t and Elia couldn’t have any more children he set about fufilling prophesy the only way he could. It might be messed up that he divorced Elia. But this is a man who is trying to save the world by siring “the promised one”. Let’s not demonise Rheagar. Can you tell I’m a fan? 😉
I don’t understand Dany’s end game. She’s infertile. Will never have kids. So even if she assumes the throne what then? Another civil/succession war in 60 years?
@Word:
Agreed 100% with your comments 🙂 Thanks for adding more info and context on Rhaegar and the PTWP prophecies.
And one of the Kingsguard who Rhaegar has guarding Lyanna is a Dornishman-Ser Arthur Dayne. If Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia Martell is meant to disown her and their children would he have put Ser Arthur to guard Elia’s replacement? Just something that occurred to me.
Here’s hoping we see more of Ser Arthur Dayne in Bran’s flashbacks minus his armour:)
@Word, I don’t dislike Rhaegar, but couldn’t he have pursued a third child without humiliating his wife and triggering a war?
I don’t know, maybe his imperial lordship’s presidency is affecting me, but I don’t want anyone on the Iron Throne at this point, not even Jon Snow. Is Danerys really that good a leader? She seems to have abandoned the people she freed in Slaver’s Bay. Does Jon Snow even want to rule Westeros? Snow is starting to show Mance Rayder’s influence in refusing to bend the knee; Rayder was elected “king” of the Wildlings and didn’t believe in a divine right to rule (he’s also still alive in the books).
Is it possible for us to have real change in Westeros at the end of all this? Dorne never accepted the rule of the Iron Throne. Danerys agreed to allow the independence of the Iron Islands in exchange for Yara Greyjoy’s support. Maybe, just maybe, we have the seeds of self-determination.
I guess I really won’t be happy unless this all ends with the Iron Throne destroyed, and with Flea Bottom getting a voice. We don’t have any guarantee that the miracle babies Danerys and Jon Snow have won’t end up lunatics like their dad/ grandpa. Time for a real revolution! Who’s with me?
I’m waiting for someone to realize the Iron Throne is made of valerian steel.
@lightpurple huh? No it’s not.
“The Iron Throne was constructed by Aegon I Targaryen, the first king of the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon the Conqueror had the throne made from the swords surrendered by his enemies. It is supposed to have taken a thousand blades to make, heated in the breath of Balerion the Black Dread.”
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Iron_Throne
@Nicole,
Jon being legitimate might have been a great revelation if the show wasn’t so inconsistent about succession laws, particularly in recent years.
What does it matter if Jon is a legitimate Targaryen when he’s already ascended the Northern throne despite having three living trueborn siblings. Or Euron openly admitting to murdering his brother and somehow gaining support from the Iron Islanders. Or four bastard women murdering the last living members of House Martell out in the open, the house that have ruled over Dorne for centuries. Or even Cersei blowing up a place of worship, leading to the tragic early demise of a well liked king and queen, only to easily ascend the throne, unchallenged only by Dany.
If they turn Jon Snow’s legitimate status into a big deal when they’ve been so sloppy previously, it will be more time wasting, manufactured conflict. Just have Season 8 deal with the dispatching of the army of the dead, the end of the Iron Throne and a hopefully brighter future for the Seven Kingdoms.
Nicole, IKR?! But that scene was was so badly written: “what does annulment mean”? Argh.
Jon Snow and Dany are half-siblings. We already have an incest story line going on so I don’t think we’ll be lead into another one.
We already know that Jorah loves Dany … and after last night’s episode, I think she may be feelin’ the same. He’s my favorite scrumptuous …
I think we all know that Cersei is going to die some horrible death. I think the person who kills her will be Jaime … and Jaime and Brienne will reunite and fall in love.
They are not half-siblings. Jon is Dany’s nephew (his father, Rhaegar, was her oldest brother). Still gross though and I, for one, hope this does not come to pass.
Dany is actually Jon’s Aunt. Rhaegar, Jon’s dad, was her brother.
#LISTENTOGILLY
I was shouting that to the rooftops!
Me, too!
I’m astounded nobody’s made a RECLAIMING MY TIME joke about that scene
Love that even before she dropped the bomb, she was genuinely interested in the minute details. Girl has a big brain like Sam.
Jon and Gendry! This was huge. “Our fathers trusted each other”. Hahahahaha.
I’m hoping for a Rhaegar flashback. This plot line is the only thing keeping Jon interesting to me this season because I’m finding him pretty boring.
And I know he and Dany are going to bang, but I’m reluctantly accepting it. Just feels to forced.
The wight hunt is a terrible idea. But it does have the best squad ever. And considering its the second to the last episode of the season, you know sh*t is going down big time.
I’m always here for a white walker battle.
Next weeks episode is going to be absolutely insane.
Only 2 episodes left
It does seem rushed, and forced. They’ve spent several seasons building up a love story between Missandei and Grey Worm, and they’re just side characters. Now two main characters, Jon and Daenerys are falling head over heals for each other in the course of like 3 episodes. It doesn’t feel very convincing.
We’ll finally get to see Beric’s flaming sword. And The Hound is sure to have some great lines. What was missing in those exchanges was the Arya connection for all of them. Jon doesn’t know Gendry is Arya’s friend or that The Hound traveled with her and kept her safe for so long.
John didn’t seem particularly pleased to learn Arya was alive. You would think he would look a little less grumpy upon learning his favorite sister is at Winterfell.
I absolutely love when Beric chokes up on his sword! Bring it winter!
I was really waiting for Gendry to mention Arya when he met Jon. I mean, Gendry knew who she was. She told him when he guessed she was a girl. So it would have made sense for him to mention it when he met John instead of going on and on about their “dads”. But he didn’t. Just another example of the writing taking a hit this season.
Maybe not this season but next season, someone has been cat to play Rhaegar
I will take Arya, the Warrior Queen, any day over Sansa, Cersi, Dany, et al. She’s a souped-up version of little Lady of Mormont, but with fighter skills.
Yep!
I’m more than a little disappointed she’s letting Littlefinger play here like that. I expect more from her at this point.
She’s a little too murdery for my tastes.
You can’t be serious. She advocated beheading men for complaining, FFS! I mean, do you honestly think violence = leadership?
Seriously, I’m holding a vigil for Arya’s character and IQ in this episode, because it has officially been assassinated. Brutally. She was not only acting like a vindictive psychopath, but a stupid one, at that. Her behavior in this episode was downright revolting.
I’m hoping the show is just playing us and next week Arya will reveal that she knows LF is misleading her. But it sure doesn’t look good right now. I was really annoyed with her during her conversation with Sansa – hateful and bitter. Which isn’t the Arya we’ve come to know.
+10000000000000000000000000
#AryaDeservesBetterThanThisEpisode
IKR? WTF happened? Didn’t we JUST see her act understanding towards Lannister soldiers because she understands their circumstances?
There were leaks of old outlines for this episode, and in them Arya is even worse: she 1) Threatens Glover and Royce with execution in front of the entire court, 2) TAUNTS SANSA ABOUT RAMSAY and 3) Continues to accuse Sansa of disloyalty even though Sansa’s rejection of the proposal by the lords is 10x more aggressive (implying that they’re proposing oathbreaking, etc, but Arya still apparently doesn’t think that’s enough because Sansa didn’t support her threats of execution).
But the letter itself is especially dumb because… How on Earth should that seem incriminating to anyone with half a brain cell anyways? At the time of that letter, not only was Sansa a hostage, but Ned was IN PRISON and Sansa had no idea where Arya was. OF COURSE Sansa would send a letter like that, not only for her sake, but for the sake of her father and sister! Arya was there when Joffrey talked about Sansa pleading for Ned’s life and trying to persuade him to have mercy on Ned and send him to the Wall!
If this were the proper Arya, she’d see through it immediately and basically shrug at the letter as nothing more than a dictated souvenir of a very fraught time. Instead, no, I’m certain they’re actually doing this. It might be not TOTALLY horrible if they established anything to JUSTIFY this (at the very least, have Sansa present when LF is conferring with Glover and Royce later), but NO. Nothing! Sansa’s been a complete ace all season and has acted like a goddamn saint (ESPECIALLY in comparison to most of the other characters) all season.
Also, the idea that the Stark sisters would be anything but mutually supportive and loving of one another after everything is insane. You’re telling me that Davos and Tyrion can make nice and trade jokes, but Sansa and Arya can’t support each other?
Instead, Arya’s looking for a fight with her sister for literally NO REASON. As a result, it just reads as stupidity and petty jealousy. And I hate that.
The writing this season has been subpar. People are acting completely contrary to their characters which have been well established. Cersei most notably, but now Arya.
“How on Earth should that seem incriminating to anyone with half a brain cell anyways?”
To me, the letter IS incriminating . . . of Littlefinger. The fact that he is hanging on to the letter after all these years, shows he is actively trying to trick the Starks in some way. As you say, the letter would have little value, so why would Littlefinger be skulking around and hiding it? It makes HIM look guilty, not Sansa. I’m hoping that’s how the show play it, and Littlefinger’s end is nigh.
Arya is not leadership material at all, and she’s not meant to be. We’re not supposed to be cheering her turning into a vengeful murderer either. It disturbs me that some people see her as awesome and strong; she’s damaged, traumatised, and feral.
See, that’s the thing: aside from a dumb cameo, what was the Lannister soldier stuff for anyways? You’d think that would indicate that she’s turning away from that path and becoming more understanding and merciful. Instead, she’s trying to vilify her own sister, talking about executing vassals, and letting Littlefinger manipulate her.
I am not sure what Tyrion and Varys expected of Dany. Dany is not crazy nor is she like her father; she is doing what she has to do to shore up power. She gave those men a choice and if she had punked out she would look weak. The soldiers decided to save themselves and the two rich assholes decided to die. If she was anything like her father, she would have burned everyone on that field (including her own men) and then laughed about it; she didn’t. She made an example out of two men, which has been her m.o. for a while. Dany killing those two men is no different than Robb or Jon killing their enemies on the battlefield. At least she got to point that out in her dialogue. She is doing what she has to do to win this war. If she had lost, Cersei and her men would have shown her no mercy. BTW, She doesn’t have to explain herself to Jon. He still hasn’t taken the time to do it for her. Why is she doing more than he is?
I only feel sort of bad for Sam; Dickon did seem to be cordial with him last season. Randyll was a true dick and deserved it.
Cersei is the real “mad queen”. She just finds out that she is pregnant with another child and the only thing she can think about is betrayal. She just finds out that she may have be free of Maegi’s (sp) prophecy and yet that is the first thing she thinks about. She doesn’t care about Jaime’s feelings or the baby . She is just thinking about herself. She thinks this baby is going to keep Jaime tethered to her and her booty parked on that throne. If Jaime was more interesting, I would probably care more about his feelings. I honestly don’t want Cersei to be crazy, though. Someone who actively chooses to do terrible things on a regular basis is much more interesting than someone with a mental illness.
How is a man going to get an annulment with two kids? If there are two children that means that they consummated the marriage. There was no way Rhaegar could prove that Rhaenys and Aegon where not his children. Rhaegar was obsessed with the story of “the prince who was promised” and the “the dragon has three heads”. Why would he just walk away from his responsibilities just to start over with Lyanna? He would have had three kids which fulfilled one part of his fav stories. I am pretty sure the losers who are going to write this sl are going to make it seem like it was “true luv”, but Rhaegar is going to come off as a piece of shit to me for abandoning his first wife and two children, annulling the marriage, and then moving on with a younger woman. He left his first wife to be beaten and raped and his daughter and son to be slaughtered by Robert and Tywin, but that doesn’t matter because we got St. Jon out of this whole thing. Disgusting.
Sansa and Arya are basically fighting over two men and it annoys me. Their differences aside, they are sisters and Sansa deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Arya has tunnel vision and was spoiling for a fight with Sansa. If it was me, I would have given Arya a verbal beatdown. Her insinuating that Sansa wants to overthrow Jon is only my dream come true. Just because she was not licking Jon’s asshole does not mean that she wants to betray him. Arya has little to know proof of anything but she is walking around making a lot of claims.
Henry VII had his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled and they had a daughter (Queen Mary). GRR Martin has long said he has based plots etc.. around the often ‘bloody’ British history.
I imagine Rhaegar used Ellia’s inability to have more children as his reason – from what i recall of the books she almost died after giving birth on both occasions and was told having more children would kill her.
Henry married his brother’s widow and that’s what they used as a reason for why he should be given an annulment (and even that didn’t work out within the Catholic church due to strategic reasons). That was obviously not what he really cared about, but formally speaking, they had more reasons than not having an heir.
It would make more sense had Rhaegar and Lyanna gotten married under a weerwood tree while he remained married to Elia within the Faith of the Seven.
You really need to get over justfying burning people alive. Beheading sure, but surely burning people is the same old same old crap her old man pulled. No respect for Dany.
Those dragons are her ultimate weapon and she made a statement. I liked it.
She started out saying how different she was from Cersei–she wasn’t going to murder them etc, then a beat later said bend the knee or I’ll kill you!
@Honest B First, please refrain from writing comments to me like you are my friend. You don’t know me. I don’t need to get over anything at all.
So let me get your feeble argument straight: you are fine with them dying, just not by fire. Yeah, that makes total sense. Death is death.
Beheading someone is not quick and simple as your are making it out to be. Beheading someone takes time and skill since you are cutting through bone and muscle; it is also a bloody mess. It could take two or three chops to completely remove the head from the body. Also, It would have been a painful death for the person who was being beheaded.
Since the dragons are so large, the fire that consumed them would have killed them almost immediately.
Remember in Season 1, Episode 1 when Ned Stark killed that boy, and made the kids watch because honor? It’s just the code there: You say it, you do it. Dany gave those two a choice; the boy who saw the Wight Walkers was a deserter (also a kind of choice, or at least a risk). Beheading or Dragonfire, same diff.
The Tarlys betrayed their liege lord, and took part in slaughtering that lord’s soldiers, aka their friends and neighbors. Why in the world would the dragon queen NOT execute per her dragons? If she were truly mad, she would feed them to her dragons. She didn’t enjoy it, in fact she seemed a bit upset when it was over. She practically whispered dracarys.
Disagree about Cersei and the baby. Her smile when telling Jaime was genuine. She’s happy about this baby.
Her comment about betraying her is just her craziness coming out. Remember she thinks Tommen betrayed her. She’s going to see potential betrayers everywhere from now on.
Was she happy about the baby or was she trying to convince Jaime that she was happy about it? Their reasons for being happy about this new development are not really the same.
I read her smile as sly and manipulative, and was not convinced she was telling the truth. Best way to maintain Jaime’s loyalty!
I thought she looked happy, too. But after she accused Tommen of betraying her, I think she will be a danger to her own child. Although my first thought was she’s experiencing menopause and Pycelle is wicked enough to manipulate her with the symptoms.
@ AT: I am so glad you posted this. I posted an entire massive rant and lost it. I will just post a reply here.
So I have a lot of comment about this seemingly dumb plot
What in the earth did super smart Tyrion and superspy varys think by meeting up witth cersei?
I feel varys has again started plotting Dany removal
As for tyrion, he seems to have lost his shit ever since he stopped drinking. And no matter the hatred some ties are difficult to sever? Like really talk to cersei? The woman who blew up a sept full of people and lot more in the surrounding region?
I want this jamie and cersei plot to vanish and them kill each other as soon as possible.
So little finger does what he does best. Creating Chaos. And aarya is such a hothead. She is like Robb and Ned. Thinking in a st line ( unless it is a big setup done secretly by Aarya and Sansa to plot downfall of LF)
Is anyone going to mention riverland? Freys? Edmure tully? Ignoring edmure is never a good idea since lannisters bring him out to weaken Stark alliance whenever they need him.
Hearing Rhaeger annulled his marriage to Illia Martell just made me root for dany more. Like she is the only Targaryn Who has any semblance of any forward thinking and compassion. Rhaeger had all the time to woo Lynna Stark, set aside his wife and marry her, beget an heirand ser up super secure Kingsguard covered birthing chamber bur he had no time or opportunity to send the mother of his children to somewhere safe? Oh right! Because he didn’t want to piss his dornish alliance just at the height of rebellion. I mean who cares about the loyal poor woman. Its all about loving the one I love. So if the marriage was indeed anulled,Illia could have left KL and gone somewhere safe with her half Targ half Dornish royal children and she wouldn’t be killed so brutally , neither her children. Or probably she was given the news of anullement at last moment because being a princess/ future queen does gurantee shit to a woman. I have a massive Henry 8 Katherine of Aragorn flashback here. There are many reasons to despise Henry8 but the cruel treatment of his loyal proud wife and the underhanded way of marrying Anne Boleyn always pissed me off . ( for the record I like what I read about Anne boleyn, who was a remarkable woman and another victim of the tyrannical Henry). I blame the thoughtless, selfish man.
So one thougthless selfish man, one cruel stupid weak man. And still people root for Danys failure because she dares to show her power at times.
Now comes Dany.
I am pretty glas she is showing them she means business. I mean the whole point of Varys ans Tyrion supporting her was she could be feared and respected by nobles ( aka she could keep them in line) and loved by common people. You cannot really command respect if you are being generous on the face of open defiance. It is war, you make tough decisions. Winners need to assert their power. And randyl Tarly disrespected her pretty solidly. If she had let it slide, she would have come off as weak in front of her dothraki, in front of the lannisters soldiers. They would have demanded to be treated the same as Randyll. And one thing we know, Dany tries to show no discrimination for privileged people and the common folks. She will be bashed throughout internet for the entire week I know, but I think she did it right. And there is no gurantee sparing Dickon would have ensured his loyalty. Why tyrion and Varys suddenly grew lily livered conscience is beyond me. Varys couldn’t serve one single ruler without actively betraying him. Tyrion burned up an entire fleet of baratheon soldiers with wildfire. But suddenly when the soldiers were lannister colors, they grow conscience.
Dany could control her anger maybe but so far she has done a better job than many others in restraint, patience and learning statecraft.
Last of all, if the writers brought in R married Lynna secretly so that they can prop up a legitimate male instead of the temperamental female ( the angle they are actively trying to show) I would be so pissed off.
I know its a monumental job for women to climb any top Position without extreme scrutiny and bashing in real world , but GOT was doing such a good job of showing strong women se without stereotyping them.
I actually read your comment and wanted to upvote it but realized that we don’t have the capabilities to do that on this site. You better articulated everything I said and have been saying about… everything.
Tyrion would have understood that their would have been deaths in the Lannister army and would have been fine with it. That is the nature of battle and would have even called those soldiers collateral damage.
Vary’s supposedly is for the people but his speech proved that whatever he thinks he believes is not even close to the truth. Jaime, Varys, Tywin, The Kings Guard, Rhaegar, etc did not do enough to stop Aerys from hurting others. Dany is more than likely a product of rape that Aerys committed against his wife Rhaella. None of those men did anything significant to try to prevent Brandon and his fathers death or any other rapes and murders until it was too late. Those men didn’t care because it did not really have an impact on their lives because it wasn’t them or they were just doing their jobs. Now, damn near twenty years later, they want to project their hatred of Aerys onto Dany for no good reason. Those men are not being heroes. They got it wrong before and they are getting it wrong now.
@Tan
If the idiotic “Rhaeger Targaryen annulled his first marriage to marry Lyanna Stark” is true then he also cheated his first born son and heir (who was still a baby when Rhaegar died), of his inheritance. So not only cruel to his wife but also his own children. Which again makes no sense because Rhaegar died when Lyanna would have been at most 2months pregnant! So are we to believe that Rhaegar is also a greenseer who can see the future and know the embryo was a boy?
I can’t believe HBO is going down this path! You are completely correct that Rhaeger would be a coward by not letting the Dornish know he abandoned their Princess (who would have been the Dornish Queen if she had never married Rhaeger) as well as the Starks that Lyanna ran away with a married man and is now a Targaryen and pregnant. He would have lost the Dornish army. Lyanna was supposed to be courageous and as noble as Ned. This will turn her into a villain.
I agree that that whole annulment storyline doesn’t make an awful lot of sense, but it wasn’t Rhaegar’s fault that Elia was kept in King’s Landing. Aerys basically kept her as a hostage to secure the loyalty of Doran Martell. I believe in the book it is mentioned that Rhaegar wanted her to be brought somewhere else.
Even with the annulment, Aerys would have kept her. But Aerys would have never accepted said annulment anyway, he probably would have killed both Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Elia would not have been the Dornish queen because 1) The Dornish do not have queens or kings, but princes/princesses and 2) Doran was older than her.
And actually, Rhaegar had more than enough means to get Elia and the kids to safety. He just chose not to.
Here is a useful chart of Targaryan and Stark family trees, giving birth and death dates. I don’t know about you but I need to refer: http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-are-jon-snow-and-daenerys-targaryen-related-2016-6
I’d really disagree on that. The book doesn’t give any hard evidence that Rhaegar could have taken her away from KL and back to Dorne, does it?
Maybe he could have done so before or immediately after “kidnapping” Lyanna (and even that’s speculation) but he could have died in the process. Aside from that, KL was actually a rather safe place to be. Technically, Elia and her children survived the war. They were killed after everything was over.
I’m really not trying to find excuse for creepy fool Rhaegar, but I think Aerys and Tywin are more to blame for her death than Rhaegar.
Jon being legitimate isn’t something the writers would make up, imo. If it’s in there then it’s another thing GRMM told them and it’s relevant somehow to the end game. Fans have been speculating about Lyanna and Rhaegar marrying for decades – although the consensus view was polygamy (something Targaryens did) rather than an annulment.
It doesn’t mean Jon is going to ‘win’ the game. He could die with his true parentage never being widely known in Westeros. He and Dany could marry as an alliance and rule together. Or she could die. Or both die! There are many, many possibilities. The end we see on the show is going to be Martin’s end, though; that’s been confirmed.
I agree. I haven’t been the biggest fan of Dany this season, but Tyrion and Varys are being over-the-top about it all. What choice did she have? She was losing and she needed a win, plus she needed to prove that she was serious.
It does appear that Varys will betray her.
This. I wonder if people are even seeing the same show. Everybody has been quoting the words of Ned Stark that a man should swing the sword while forgetting Dany is not a Stark. Beheading is the way they kill men in the North, the moon door is the way they kill people in the Vale, the Boltons flay people & the Targaryens happen to burn people. That’s the way it works, this is supposed to be a feudal society, not a democracy. And she’s giving them a chance, which is more than Cersei, Stannis or even Robb Stark would do. She even though about sending Tarly to the wall until he reminded her that she couldn’t bc he doesn’t consider her his queen. And to be honest Jon killed Janos for lesser things, yes he was a cunt, but so was Tarly & he actually betrayed the main house of Highgarden (Tyrells) for the same reason the Umbers betrayed the Starks (they didn’t want savages), but everybody was cheering when lord Umber died, but suddenly Tarly is a good & brave guy? I don’t understand how suddenly everybody is like Lannisters lives matter now, is your hate for Dany so big that you would prefer looking at the POV’s of the “villains” before understanding why she’s taking the decisions she’s taking?
Ned’s point was that the lord had to do it himself and not order someone else to do it. And Dany pretty much did it herself. She didn’t order someone to behead the Tarlys, she did it herself with her weapon. Her weapon just happens to be a giant fire-breathing dragon. She could have fed them to Drogon but I think she’s trying to dissuade him from eating people.
Yes, Pam, Yes!!! tellem’. Also, Gentle persuation with Drogon, right, Lightpurple?
Yes.
So true!! Dany did not burn King’s Landing to the ground and is willing to put aside the quest for the iron throne to fight the white walkers. Geez, so she killed soldiers in a battle, that’s what you do if you want to win. I agree, she gave them a chance which is more than Cersei would do. I think Cersei is plotting to kill Dany at the proposed meeting like her father plotted the death of the Starks at the Red Wedding. I would keep an eye on Varys, he is not to be trusted.
To paraphrase the Starks, if you’re going to impose a death sentence, you should be the one to carry it out. We haven’t ever seen Dany swing a sword, so using her dragon is the closest she has to carrying out the sentence herself.
I also think Tarly deserved to die. He swore an oath to Olenna’s family and betrayed them, like the Starks were betrayed at the red wedding. Thanks to Tarly, the Tyrells are now gone from the earth, and their wealth handed over to the woman who murdered Margery and Mace. And Tyrion wasn’t in the room when Dany promised Olenna that her family would be avenged. After Tyrion’s plans resulted in utter failure, at least Dany was able to partially keep her word to Olenna by giving Tarly the sentence he deserved,
And Dany only attacked soldiers, and attacked them far away from their cities so that civilians were never in danger. What else can you expect during a war?
I don’t understand the different bars people have set for Dany and Cersei as leaders at all. It frustrates me greatly in other board discussions. It’s like Dany’s somehow supposed to conquer a kingdom without killing anyone and Cersie can just do what she wants because she had to do a walk of shame? Uhm… no. And Tyrion doesn’t seem to have the bowels for it frankly. He didn’t seem to care when it was other continents.
I also don’t understand why Dany doesn’t just hop on a dragon (dress warm, of course) and head up to Eastwatch to see some dead for herself.
And Jon Snow – is he ice because he’s been dead? Why is he the ice in the equation? It’s obvious why Dany is fire but Jon?
@AT regarding annulment – Google Robert Kennedy Jr’s annulment. He was granted one by the Vatican in 1996 despite having two children with his wife. It happens.
On another note, I guess the ex fought it tooth and nail and won, but it too a decade. So, yeah – not hard to believe at all.
I think it will all be explained along this statement: . Rhaegar was obsessed with the story of “the prince who was promised” and the “the dragon has three heads”. Why would he just walk away from his responsibilities just to start over with Lyanna?
Rhaegar must have thought the union would have brought the prince who was promised…
Gilly knows everything!!
The dragons are going to leave Dany for Jon – esp as he is not only the rightful heir but seems he is going to be the only one left standing. Cersei and Dany are going not going to make it to the end and if Dany does last I still think she will go back over the sea to rule Mereen once she puts Jon on the throne. Even if she isn’t Queen I think she will be happy to see her family restored to power in Westeros.
That is not how the dragons work-especially Drogon. It has nothing to do with his Targaryen blood as there were other dragon riders who weren’t Targs. If it had anything to do with Targ blood, Jaime would not have almost got roasted in the previous episode; his great grand mother was a Targ. Same as to the character in the books who got roasted when he went to see Dany.
Since you read the books, you should remember that dragons sense things that their riders don’t. That scene shows that Jon is trustworthy to Dany, which is why he let her down to the ground. If Jon was dangerous, he would have done the same thing he was about to do to Jaime.
I have this feeling that there are a lot of people who actively root for dany to fail, ever since she stopped being the poor bullied underdog, showed glimpses of her ruthless ambition , her drive to achieve what she wants with out apologizing. Ever since she took steps to make sure she gets what she has wanted, there have been criticisms over every single action. Her use of her dragons ( because people totally sit on extraordinary weapons in war and talk their victory out of it.)
A lot of it I feel is the inherent misogyny that generations of conditioning has bred into us.
Women who are heroines and angels should possess the socially approved quality of humility, lack ambition. God forbid a strong woman tries to think independently and do as she sees fit without explaining herself
People cannot even condone that in a fictional character in a tv show, forget real life.
Yes to this, and yes to Tan’s comment in reply to yours. “A lot of it I feel is the inherent misogyny that generations of conditioning has bred into us.” yes yes yes. It disturbs me to no end.
@Tan, you’re so right. There are countless stories of guys in books, movies, series being far more murdery and less merciful than Daenerys, but then they are considered ‘cool’ or ‘realistic’.
If Dany does return to Mereen I hope she takes devoted Jorah with her.
Drogon will never leave Dany and will never accept another rider. They’ve bonded. Jon will probably bond with Rhaegal. He needs a rider and is named for his dad.
Why is everyone acting like Dany is going Mad Queen? I’m no Dany fangirl by any means but it’s royally pissing me off.
For 5 seasons she’s been building up to this and all I’ve read is “when is she going to use the dragons??”, she uses the dragons and then she’s a mad queen who is burning people. She purposely is choosing not to burn Kings Landing, Cersei blew up the sept, wiped out the Tyrell bloodline, no one cares. Dany uses her dragon in battle, on an army that had just sacked Highgarden and killed the last remaining Tyrells and she’s the baddie? Her allies were getting destroyed at every turn based on the advice she was getting.
Cersei is a lunatic with no real claim on the throne at all, even the bad things that happened to her with the High Sparrow, were as a result of her trying to screw Margeary and the Tyrells over, she also would have burned every living thing on that field and not given them a choice but yeah lets forget everything the Lannisters have done and boo Dany.
I didn’t see anyone denying Cersei is completely mental, but I think the point is that both of these women are hungry for power which makes them do cruel things. Daenerys has a while to go to catch up with all of Cersei’s cruelties, but she seems more and more determined to claim ‘her throne’ no matter what. The show made a point about humanizing the Lannister soldiers so they wanted us to come to that conclusion too. The Dothraki could’ve ran over that handful of Lannister soldiers themselves, as Robert said – only a fool would fight the Dothraki in an open field. Dropping the equivalent of napalm on them was completely unnecessary. Just because you have dragons doesn’t mean you should use them, same way as having nuclear warheads doesn’t mean you should launch them. Dany’s basically saying, I’ll be good to you if you love me, but if you don’t I’ll kill you in the most horrific way. How is that not crazy? And after all the talk about wanting to break the wheel of oppression.
I’m not saying Dany wasn’t wrong but all this Dany hate and people now supporting the Lannisters I’m seeing online is misguided to say the least, if Cersei had those dragons, she wouldn’t hesitate to use them.
Drogon was overkill, it was a knee jerk reaction to having two defeats, a bad decision, which we may see her regret further down the line but it’s not as black and white as, one is bad the other is good.
Dragons are hee show of power
People didn’t really believe it and her claim until the dragon made an appearance
The reason nuclear warheads are not used anymore because it has already been used to win a war and the devastation is etched on everybody’s mind. They were not just developed for empty threat. The world has first hand knowledge of the destruction caused spanning over generations
Now that the devastation is being etched on people’s mind, words will spread and dany would not need to flex her dragon muscles much.
That’s actually more what I’m trying to convey Tan.
The dragons are almost like the wights and the Night King to people who haven’t seen them, they’re a myth and it’s difficult to fear something you don’t think exists. No one is saying her burning soldiers is right.
By using Drogon, she reduced the amount of casualties her own troops would suffer. Yes, the Dothraki would have won but they would have suffered heavy losses crashing through those spears. It’s why we use bombers before we send in infantry.
Lindy: I don’t know where my answer landed (am on phone) but yes, my post was sort of an expansion of your post.
In short: I support you.
And we see exactly the result she wanted. Jaime left the battlefield convinced they are going to lose; it is another thing that Cersei is bat sh!t crazy and refuses to save her people’s and her own @ss, but if it were up to Jaime who saw what Drogon can do, the war would be over. So Dany was right to use him.
@Tan
Yet she still used a dragon to execute the Tarlys – prisoners of war at that point, straight after a battle where she demonstrated well enough what they could do. That was also unnecessary. Her burning the Tarly father and son echoes the mad king burning the Stark father and son just some 20 years earlier.
Dragons had been used by Targs for generations, and unlike White Walkers there’s no mention of them being considered just a folk legend, only that it was thought they have become extinct. Sure her display of power was effective, but it was also shocking even to her seasoned advisors. And yeah, with everyone else doing horrible things to claim power, why should she have to be any different? But the problem with her strategy is it goes against her narrative: she’s ‘liberating’ people in the name of breaking the wheel, but also not setting up any alternative ruling systems. Instead her pitch is basically – “I’m the rightful heir of the mad king who was burning people left and right, but I’m not like that, I promise. Not convinced enough to bend the knee? Never mind, here’s some dragon fire.”
@Anitas, the Tarlies at that point could be considered by her as traitors twice. First by not supporting Daenerys, the ‘rightful queen’, and secondly by having betrayed the Tyrells and their own land.
In history, people taken prisoners in wars, were often ransomed, while the poor ones were killed. Though even if mercy was promised, it was not always was happened once surrender was given. And that was for those who were legitimately supporting an enemy that was not considered a traitor. If you were considered a traitor, the chance of you being killed was much bigger.
Here, however, despite being traitors, the Tarlies were given the option to join. They didn’t.
There was then the option to go to the wall, which was refused too.
Daenerys spelled it out for them, join or they, and they didn’t. There was really no way she could have let them live after that.
@Anitas, Dany burning the traitor Tarlys, is absolutely nothing like the mad king burning Ned Stark’s father and brother. Nothing.
I can’t believe there’s so much outrage at the killing of the man who forced his own son, his rightful heir, to join the NW, or be murdered by his own hand. And Dickon, as attractive as he may have been, at the very least stayed silent.
I’m quoting another commenter who wrote “A lot of it I feel is the inherent misogyny that generations of conditioning has bred into us.”, and I couldnt’ agree more. Daenerys “wants more”, and this is what turns viewers against her.
She could have been the most “Princess” of all the female charachters. Blonde, beautiful, frail looking, sheltered upbringing (until her marriage), widow of a King (so that she could have remained just the Widow Queen, basing her status on the one of her dead husband instead of looking for her own), young (unlike Cersei).
But she is choosing to be a Queen, to determine her own destiny, to be her own Knight in a Shining Armour, and she wants power, and she has the power. She is a dragon rider, the only one, for now.
In sum, Daenery is a strong independent woman. Which makes her, according to many viewers, an ungrateful, deranged crazy bitch. Alas. I read similar comments directed at Sansa who is the other “Princess” in the show, and another woman who has fought against her fate, against men who wanted to lock her up in the tower (Jon also being one of them, at least partially), and who is now determining her fate, for better or for worse.
Misa: that has been yours truly.
Thank you 🙂
And you explained it much better way.
Strong assertive women are mostly seen as a bitch, the villain that people are rooting to fail.
Everything they do are somehow picked apart and criticized.
Didn’t John Snow kill the rebels Post resurrection? Even hang that little boy?
But hanging/ beheading is better than burning by dragon fire.
There is no pleasant death unless dying in your bed surrounded by great grandchildren.
I fully agree with you guys. Tan, totally right, how is this any different than Jon killing traitors? She gave them, political enemies, a choice–swear fealty or die. The elder Tarly even rejected the suggestion that he be sent to the wall, because he would feel no obligation to follow her order. She let the men who did bend the kneed live. They preferred to die rather than bend the knee. So be it. She did what any strong leader would have done in that case. Who cares that she used dragonfire rather than beheading as her weapon of choice? Was Ned Stark’s death as legitimate or any more humane?
I think problem with new comers like Varys and Tyrion are, they don’t really know the person they chose to serve well. All they know is glorified account of this girl, who is last best hope for a better world. And they know it because by grit, passion, ambition, ruthlessness she put her in a position to be heard about and hoped about. Varys was plotting her death when she was khaleesi.
All tyrion knew was that the girl who no body gave a thought , had no money, no army and no kingdom managed to acquire all three in a very short time.
Tyrion arrived when she was already in trouble in meeren and disappeared soon after.
I don’t know why her anger and ruthlessness and independent nature surprise them. I mean did they think the girl who outmaneuvered the slavers in Astapor would just roll over and listen to all their “advice” as solemn command?
Similarly Sansa, who practically survived alone in not one but two hostile environments, fending off creep, watching her back and managed to keep her head would just roll over and say yes sir to everything Jon said?
These two ladies are born survivors and leaders in different capacities.
To cast them in the role of temperamental, superficial women looking for easy way out is imo feeding the stereotype.
What was written on the scroll Littlefinger left for Arya?
I believe it was the letter that Sansa was forced to sign by Cersei and Pycelle back in season 1.
Thanks AT. I’ll look it up.
I don’t have the exact wording, but another website clued me in. Remember in season 1 when Robb received a from Sansa telling him to bend the knee to Joffrey and Robb is all, “i’m going with an army to free my father and I am not bending the knee.”
It’s that letter. He knew Sansa was forced to write. Cersei and Joffrey had her write a letter home informing them of Robert’s death, Ned’s “treason” and arrest, and to come to KL to show support of Joffrey.
Thanks mom2two. That rings a bell.
Cersei and Pycelle forced her to write a letter to Robb in which she called Ned a traitor and asked Robb to come to King’s Landing to “bend the knee” to Joffrey. Robb and Cat and Maester Luwin recognized it for what it was – a forced letter – and ignored it while they also pointed out that there was no mention of Arya, despite the Lannister claims that they had Arya.
Great !! Thanks LP. You also saved me some time !!
Yes, LF meant for Arya to find it in his effort to drive a wedge between the two sisters. Arya will be furious with and distrust Sansa, who won’t likely have a chance to explain the context for that letter.
The scroll said: “Robb, I write to you with a heavy heart. Our good king Robert is dead, killed from wounds he took in a boar hunt. Father has been charged with treason. He conspired with Robert’s brothers against my beloved Joffrey and tried to steal his throne. The Lannisters are treating me very well and provide me with every comfort. I beg you: come to King’s Landing, swear fealty to King Joffrey and prevent any strife between the great houses of Lannister and Stark.”
“I thought you might still be rowing.” BEST LINE EVER!
Ragnar didn’t just get an annulment, he got remarried.
“Don’t mind me. I’ve only lived to a ripe old age.”
That was a good one too. Can’t wait to hear Davos’s quips as they meet the White Walkers.
Best two lines of the show!
Nothing fucks you harder than time.
Yeah, nobody mind me. All I’ve ever done is live to a ripe old age.
He definitely had the best lines last night.
I can see why Gendry is so motivated: look also at what happened at the end of last season – that massacre Cersei carried out.
So I have a lot of comment about this seemingly dumb plot
What in the earth did super smart Tyrion and superspy varys think by meeting up witth cersei?
I feel varys has again started plotting Dany removal
As for tyrion, he seems to have lost his shit ever since he stopped drinking. And no matter the hatred some ties are difficult to sever? Like really talk to cersei? The woman who blew up a sept full of people and lot more in the surrounding region?
I want this jamie and cersei plot to vanish and them kill each other as soon as possible.
So little finger does what he does best. Creating Chaos. And aarya is such a hothead. She is like Robb and Ned. Thinking in a st line ( unless it is a big setup done secretly by Aarya and Sansa to plot downfall of LF)
Is anyone going to mention riverland? Freys? Edmure tully? Ignoring edmure is never a good idea since lannisters bring him out to weaken Stark alliance whenever they need him.
Hearing Rhaeger annulled his marriage to Illia Martell just made me root for dany more. Like she is the only Targaryn Who has any semblance of any forward thinking and compassion. Rhaeger had all the time to woo Lynna Stark, set aside his wife and marry her, beget an heirand ser up super secure Kingsguard covered birthing chamber bur he had no time or opportunity to send the mother of his children to somewhere safe? Oh right! Because he didn’t want to piss his dornish alliance just at the height of rebellion. I mean who cares about the loyal poor woman. Its all about loving the one I love. So if the marriage was indeed anulled,Illia could have left KL and gone somewhere safe with her half Targ half Dornish royal children and she wouldn’t be killed so brutally , neither her children. Or probably she was given the news of anullement at last moment because being a princess/ future queen does gurantee shit to a woman. I have a massive Henry 8 Katherine of Aragorn flashback here. There are many reasons to despise Henry8 but the cruel treatment of his loyal proud wife and the underhanded way of marrying Anne Boleyn always pissed me off . ( for the record I like what I read about Anne boleyn, who was a remarkable woman and another victim of the tyrannical Henry). I blame the thoughtless, selfish man.
So one thougthless selfish man, one cruel stupid weak man. And still people root for Danys failure because she dares to show her power at times.
Now comes Dany.
I am pretty glas she is showing them she means business. I mean the whole point of Varys ans Tyrion supporting her was she could be feared and respected by nobles ( aka she could keep them in line) and loved by common people. You cannot really command respect if you are being generous on the face of open defiance. It is war, you make tough decisions. Winners need to assert their power. And randyl Tarly disrespected her pretty solidly. If she had let it slide, she would have come off as weak in front of her dothraki, in front of the lannisters soldiers. They would have demanded to be treated the same as Randyll. And one thing we know, Dany tries to show no discrimination for privileged people and the common folks. She will be bashed throughout internet for the entire week I know, but I think she did it right. And there is no gurantee sparing Dickon would have ensured his loyalty. Why tyrion and Varys suddenly grew lily livered conscience is beyond me. Varys couldn’t serve one single ruler without actively betraying him. Tyrion burned up an entire fleet of baratheon soldiers with wildfire. But suddenly when the soldiers were lannister colors, they grow conscience.
Dany could control her anger maybe but so far she has done a better job than many others in restraint, patience and learning statecraft.
Last of all, if the writers brought in R married Lynna secretly so that they can prop up a legitimate male instead of the temperamental female ( the angle they are actively trying to show) I would be so pissed off.
I know its a monumental job for women to climb any top Position without extreme scrutiny and bashing in real world , but GOT was doing such a good job of showing strong women se without stereotyping them.
Everything you said!!!
Just how are they planning on capturing/transporting a wight? The skeletons shatter when they get hit. Maybe the can immobilize one of the more recent dead.
Also, it’s a bad idea to let Cersei know the Night King is real. He’s her dream guy, he’ll give her what she wants…dominion over everyone. Sorry, Euron.
Jon any Dany have a nice brother sister vibe. The love story is forced. Imho
They didn’t seem to have any sort of cage or wagon with them when they left Eastwatch.
They had rope, so I guess they are going to lasso one. I can’t get over how terrible this idea is. Why send them into a death trap? If they die, then what?
Still, I’m here for it because the action should be awesome. And I’d love a sequel to the Night King vs. Jon stare down.
The rest of the brotherhood was following with supplies and a cage.
I missed the cage. Now I have visions of them propping it up with a stick and having a carrot attached to a string. Like a wight bugs bunny.
I really loved the boy-meets-dragon scene. Jon petting Drogon … If that dragon could have purred, it would have. I almost forgave the dragons for taking all the budget money from the direwolves.
Almost.
Speaking of… where is Ghost? I mean come on D&D! We get you’re using up your budget on dragon army immolation, but you could at least drop a reference into conversation! Did he hop in Gendry’s boat and he’s out rowing the Narrow Sea??
They did. Sansa told Arya that Jon can’t expect the North to stay behind and wait like Ghost.
Sansa referred to him in this episode. She said that she had to keep the northern guys and the knights of the Vail happy so they continue to work together because, unlike Ghost, they’re not willing to just sit around waiting for Jon to return from whatever adventures he pursues. So, Ghost is hanging around Winterfell somewhere waiting for Jon to return.
I can’t believe I missed that! This is why I shoot my husband the evil eye when he speaks during GoT…
I can’t believe the series finale is a few episodes away and they are going to wrap up all the characters in a nice little bow. I bet we will be left with some vague outcomes because the producers want to leave open the possibility of a future Game of Thrones series.
There is one more season after this one.
This isnt the final season. There is going to be one more but shorter. 6 episodes i think?
Another season is left and the next episodes are longer than usual.
Rhaegar Targaryen sounds like the douchiest of all douches. He made his elder children bastards and left Elia Martell the Mad King’s prisoner! What a gallant chap.
I can’t decide on whether I think Cersei’s lying or not? Either way, she’s definitely using it to manipulate Jaime. He’s been in a deep dark funk for ages now and is clearly on the brink of packing it all in so she dangles this carrot because he’s previously regretted not being able to openly father his children. As much as it annoys me that the writers have completely massacred Jaime’s characterisation and arc in order to elevate Cersei (poor Coster-Waldau doesn’t even get lines any more, he just gets to stand there looking conflicted while others monologue for their Emmy reels at him. He’s the best POV in the books, why wouldn’t you want to adapt all that drama?!), I think this is a fairly accurate representation (for a fantasy show anyway) of an emotionally abusive relationship. It’s so frustrating to watch and you just want to clash some cymbals in front of their face and tell them to wake tf up already but it’s harder than that to sever ties completely. They’ve been in this toxic set up for what, 25 years now? That’s a lot of baggage.
We’re going on a wight hunt! This is honestly such a stupid plan, have none of these characters watched the past 6 seasons? Tyrion even said it at his trial, put irrefutable proof in front of Cersei and she still ain’t gonna listen.
I’m increasingly #teamSansa. I don’t think it’s accidental how much her ways are being contrasted to Dany and Cersei. I don’t think she’ll want to leave Winterfell again though, so Queen of the independent North it’ll have to be.
Elia wan’t the mad king’s prisoner. Tywin had her killed for Robert, not Aerys.
She was once the rebellion started iirc- Aerys let Rhaella and Viserys escape to Dragonstone and kept Elia and her children in the Red Keep to ensure the Dornish stayed on side. A rebellion Rhaegar’s foolishness helped start. I might have this wrong though!
Edit: found what I was looking for! https://youtu.be/WbMk6r1IUyY I think they might spin Rhaegar and Lyanna as ‘true love’ but whatever his reasons were he seems like a jerk to me. You don’t get to jaunt off for love or prophecy when you’re a married crown prince with kids.
All GOT was missing was a taste of Henry 8 and how he put aside Katherine of Aragorn.
Because nothing is better than rehashing of history where a woman, a true born princess, a queen for 20 yes is reduced to nothing
I suppose to make up for giving Illia a son ( Katherine had none living), she was raped and murdered brutally.
I really hope that when this all comes out in the wash next season there’s someone around who’ll be able to tell Jon the harsher truth of it (who knew Rhaegar who’s still alive? Varys? Jaime? Barristan just went on about how musical he was). Wish Oberyn was still around for this exact purpose. Elia was screwed over.
Seriously all this time I was feeling bad for Lyanna Stark but more and more I see that Elia Martell got a super raw deal. She was a Dornish Princess in line to the throne (Dorne is happy to have women rule), loved her husband Rhaegar, almost died giving birth to his 2 children and was devoted to them as well as loved by the people. In return she gets betrayed by her husband, is held prisoner by his crazy fire-loving father then gets raped and brutally murdered after seeing her children killed in front of her own eyes. Interesting how HBO has killed the Dornish royal family before they could find out that Elia had been betrayed by house Targaryen.
Strange since in the books House Martell had a secret pact to marry and support the remaining Targaryen. And Rhaegar felt safe in hiding out his new wife in Dorne!??!
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Elia_Martell
Davos is the best. I love Liam Cunningham.
Ugh Cersei being pregnant… or is she?
I hate Littlefinger!!! If anything happens to Arya ill be so pissed. He needs to DIE
I still don’t accept jon and dany …. ew ew ew.
Decent episode overall. Next week should be good.
I have to say that Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has been the MVP for me so far this season. His character arc as Jaime has been probably the best in the show so far. I never would eve imagine liking Jamie after season 1.
So Cersei knew that Tyrian was in KL but she let him walk away? That doesn’t make sense.
Yeah that’s so massively out of character. Cersei isn’t an ice cold schemer, she’s vindictive and impulsive and her plots always come back to haunt her because she doesn’t consider consequences. They keep pushing the narrative that she’s her father’s daughter for some reason, when the whole point of her arc is that she’s not, at all. I suppose it’s just to make it seem not completely implausible that Cersei wouldn’t have gone down already so that the writers can keep Lena Headey around to the end?
Yeah, but this isn’t Cersei of the books. This Cersei, I guess, is supposed to be more restrained and legit? I mean, contrast how she treated the Iron Bank here vs in the books!
@BIRDIX Exactly! Why would Cersei let Tyrion walk away? How did Cersei know he was there? Qyburn’s (previously Varys’) little birds?? It doesn’t make sense!!
Because she already knows he didn’t kill Joffrey. And what benefit would it be to kill Tyrion now? He’s Dany’s Hand of the Queen. Killing him would have brought Dany down to KL and we all saw how scared Jamie was when he told Bronn about the damage Dany’s one dragon wrought…imagine all three? He told Cersei they were never gonna win against Dany and her dragons. Why summon the said dragons to KL just for Tyrion? Cersei was smart enough/advised by someone smart enough to just let this one go.
I also think she probably assumed Jamie would have killed Tyrion or someone else in KL would have done it on their own seeing as Tyrion is public enemy #1 there.
I’m more disturbed by the fact that she wants to punish Bronn for a “betrayal” and looking nuts with that gleam in her eyes as she told Jamie so.
I don’t believe she knew Tyrion was in KL. I think she was just blustering to show her power.
Bran needs to drop the dime on Littlefinger. I’m so sick of seeing him- and we’re wasting screen time on his BS story line.
I totally missed the pregnancy announcement and I had the closed captions on! Either she’s lying or she’ll miscarry. I believe Maggy’s prophecy. Who knows maybe she’ll die giving birth? That’s a possibility too and technically it would be little brother that kills her still since it would be his baby. She’s so arrogant she’s stupid. Bronn didn’t betray Jaime, he’s a mercenary and has no loyalty to anyone.
It also took me a lot of side eyeing but I have finally discovered that Tycho from the iron bank is Mycroft Holmes in Sherlock.
I think they just put an expiration date on her. The profecy said three children so she will die before she gives birth one way or another.
Let’s see. Dany’s speach to Jon about the terriblesness of strength did a pretty good job of explaining her actions. This is war people! Tyrion seems to have forgotten that. People are going to die- That’s a fact. She only killed the two that openly and rudely defied her rulling. She needed to make an example of them, and Tyrion arguing for them in front of everyone is the same dumb sh!t Sansa was doing to Jon a couple of episodes ago.
About the Sansa-Arya thing, yes, Arya is falling for some of LF bulshit, but she also has a point. People’s hard-on for hating Jon is blinding them to the clues the show’s been droping about Sansa and her temptation for power. It is not a coincidence the faces she’s been making in key moments like when Jon was hailed KITN or when she was watching Arya and Brienne. I was watching episode 4 repeat yesterday before 5, and noticed when Bran gave Arya the dagger he shot Sansa a look waiting for her reaction. That is not coincidential. My aracnid senses have been tingling since the start of the season. LF is playing Arya but his true purpose is to get an in with Sansa and she will let him because she always f*cks up, it is what she does. The only hope is Bran sees something first and stoping Arya from doing something stupid and rash and redirects her to the true enemy: LF (can he freaking die already?)
Also, I feel like I’ve been watching a different show. Jon and Dany have amazing chemestry. It jumps at you from the screen. Anyway, I can’t wait for the last two episodes!
One thing I didn’t like about last night’s episode was LF so easily outmaneuvering Arya. She’s a ninja warrior who’s undergone intense training. She even reads Sanya’s mind at one point (saying she knows Sanya’s thinking of being queen even as they talked). Yet Littlefinger was able to pull one over on Arya? Lousy writing there.
Arya is a teenage girl who roughed it on the road and then took a crash course in Assassinations 101 for which she received an Incomplete.
She knows nothing of statecraft and political machinations —-you see in this episode her go-to for dealing with disgruntled allies is to KILL them!
Contrast that with Baelish who has been lying and spying long before she was born. Hell, he’s been playing everyone from kings and Hands to the likes of Tywin, Olenna, Varys, Tyrion, and Cersei. He set this WHOLE THING into motion, started the entire War of the Five Kings without doing anything more than whispering the right lies in the right ears and playing people, counting on them to act true-to-form and do exactly what he wants them to do.
He had Lysa send Cat the letter saying the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn because he KNEW Ned Stark couldn’t resist coming to investigate. He told Ned about Jon Arryn’s and Stannis’ investigations because he KNEW he could leave a trail of bread crumbs —JUST LIKE HE DID WITH ARYA —and Ned would follow, figuring out the Lannister Incest Secret. He told Cat the dagger used to attack Bran belonged to Tyrion because he KNEW hot-headed Cat would not let it drop and would start major beef with the Lannisters over it.
He wanted Sansa for himself so he brings Margaery and the Tyrells into Joffrey’s court. He wants Joffrey dead so he conspires with Olenna to kill to kill him and does it in such a way that Tyrion takes the blame and Sansa is implicated and thus totally dependent on him for her future safety.
FAR older, smarter, craftier men and women have fallen for Baelish’ traps. It’s just a shame Arya’s resentments towards Sansa allow him to play her.
Remember that supremely confident younger Dany? When Jorah ans Barristan argued with her , rather used only 1 word, the talking to they received?
Seems landing in westeros and losing a few battles have shaken that Dany.
No one deserves that ,” if you ever question me in front of others ( specially war prisoners, ) you will go advice someone else” more than T and V.
Tyrion for cleaning up his act
And Varys to snap out of mad king flashback and piling on the female he swore to serve.
I said that about Sansa last week. She just seems so salty. Arya called her out. She is turning into Cersei. And in the books Sansa was a bitch with a sense of entitlement which Arya pointed out when she said she always liked having nice things and how it made her think she was better than everyone for it. In the books, Sansa was also a real bitch to Jon, like Catelyn was and looked down on him because he was a bastard. Rickon, Bran Arya and even Robb loved Jon like a real brother. Arya is fiercely loyal to Jon. And I’ll never forgive Sansa for getting Lady killed and lying on her sister and also getting the Butcher’s boy killed just to side with Joffrey. She was also rude to their Septa and even the Hound after her saved her from getting raped by that Flea Bottom mob.
The only reason we felt sorry for Sansa is because she’s had to endure such close proximity to psychopaths. I do feel for her because of it, but she’s still and always had been a snobby bitch.
From the way Bran greeted Sansa, I knew he saw something about her he did not like. Arya is catching on.
Seriously?!
1) She didn’t get Lady killed. Cersei ordered it. Cersei would have ordered it regardless of what Sansa said.
2) The Butcher’s Boy died before she was ever called forward. Cersei sent the Hound and Jaime out to hunt Arya and Mycah before Sansa said a word. Sandor LITERALLY was carting the kid’s dead body out when Eddard emerged from the meeting. Mycah had been dead for HOURS at that point. Blaming Sansa for that is sick.
3) If she’d told the truth about Joffrey, it would have done no good. It would have set her up for a marriage to a violent boy who would hold a grudge against her forever. It would have done NOTHING to help Arya OR Lady. Arya would have spent the rest of her life being hated even more by the future king if Joffrey ended up being punished.
4) Stop blaming little girls for what happened at the Trident. Blame the adults responsible.
(Sansa “in the books” was also drunk at the time, btw. Quote: “Her head was fuzzy from the wine”)
Oh, and as for her treatment of Jon, the worst we get about her treatment is that she “only ever called him half brother”. The idea that she was awful to him is pure fanon. She never taunted him about being a bastard (Robb did once, though, at his mother’s bidding, no less), but we do know she played with Jon and gave him tips on talking to girls, as per Jon’s own recollections. She thinks of Jon fondly in the books. They weren’t AS CLOSE, but she was not a “real bitch” to him. If she were, Jon wouldn’t be looking at ice-covered woods and think fondly of how Sansa would get excited and declare it as an enchantment, and wouldn’t tell Gilly that her name is pretty because Sansa told him to. He has fond memories of her.
There’s absolutely no crime in liking nice things, regardless of what reason Arya gives for Sansa liking them. That was a low blow. Sansa’s spent this entire season trying to help people. Arya hasn’t helped ANYONE, is just intent on vilifying and accusing her sister of things based on nothing, and wanted to behead two innocent men for criticizing their brother. And, may I remind you that Sansa told Jon that the “nice things” in this case, the rooms, were ones she expected JON to take, but took at his insistence? And how has Sansa been salty? She’s done nothing but try to help Jon and the North! Because she argued with him? God forbid! And yes, she’s a bit miffed by being overlooked despite her contributions. She has a right to feel that way, 100%. She has still acted completely according to her better nature.
Arya was the salty one this episode. All Sansa has done this season is 1) Try to give Jon the best advice she can 2) Feed people 3) arm people properly 4) Try to keep the North and its court intact 5) Tell Littlefinger to shut up, 6) Hug her siblings and 7) decline to betray Jon.
I swear to god, Sansa could cure cancer and defeat the night’s king and people will still find reasons to hate on her.
Agree. I don’t trust Sansa. Her inherent nature plus all the trauma make her suspect. Hope I am wrong and she helps save the world the way she won the Battle for Winterfell.
Oh please, hard-on for hating Jon? SERIOUSLY?! Sansa did nothing wrong! She gets shit on no matter what she does! She never betrayed anyone and dismissed their attempts to crown her, outright showing anger for it! I’m so sorry that Sansa enjoys the power she has now and is using it, but if she was intending to betray Jon, she would have. I mean, SERIOUSLY?! Give me one piece of evidence that Arya has any business accusing her sister of anything. And no, a look Bran gave Sansa means nothing. That’s pathetic. Arya has NO point at all. She’s being an asshole who is picking a fight with her sister out of what I can only assume is jealousy and stupidity.
If Sansa wanted to kill John/ take all his power
She would have probably let the Bolton army finish him off first and then allowing the vale cavalry to charge in.
Little Finger would have found a fingery way to imprison Ramsay too and she would have let his dogs loose on him.
I think much of Sansa’s impatience comes from her suffering so much, alone and yet not taken seriously . She was a lonely motherless girl held hostage by Joffrey , who was forced to watch her fathers execution and forced to see his severed head
All sorts of torture, and now she is home and she is continuously overruled by John or questioned by Arya about her motives .
I mean …
Wendy, You get way too emotional in these comments on a weekly basis. This is a fictional book series and TV show. Relax. Your comments are always the only ones that are condescending and way too emotionally invested. Everyone else seems to be able to communicate without freaking out or being dismissive of other people’s theories and ideas. You’re ready to go apoplectic and it’s a bit odd.
@Tan
I find the hatred of Sansa to be violently misogynistic and usually based on BS and head canons. It really pisses me off. Her actions so far this season have been 100% altruistic and people still try to insult her for daring to have completely justified emotions, despite her refusal to act on them and commitment to doing what is best. Arya literally wanted Sansa to behead Royce and Glover, FFS! But somehow it is SANSA who is the bad one.
Oh, come on! Arya was posing the hypothetical scenario Sansa was using to justify tha fact that she let them trash Jon. Sansa said they would lose their armies, Arya said they couldn’t walk away with the armies if they lost their heads first. Is that any different than Sansa demanding the Umbers and that other family lose their castles because of the betrayal to the Starks? and Arya is not a master of the political game as Sansa is touted. I don’t think that not liking Sansa makes me a misogynist, but whatever floats your boat. I just don’t like her and think she’s about to royally f*ck up. Time will tell if I’m right or not.
@Diana B
Arya posting such a hypothetical scenario is dangerous and stupid. Yes, just saying that is such. If someone heard her, what do you think would have happened? Robb Stark lost about a third of his already depleted army for executing Rickard Karstark, not only putting himself in the firing lane of the Freys, but also setting up for the Karstark’s betrayal.
You want to know the huge differences between Sansa’s policy towards the Karstarks and Umbers vs was Arya said? (I’m actually kind of amazed that this isn’t obvious, but here goes…)
1) The Karstarks and Umbers were actually traitors who had actually taken up arms against the Starks, defied their kings’ orders, and delivered Rickon to Ramsay.
2) Sansa never said a word about killing anyone, just removing them from the substantial holdings and positions that made Ramsay’s army such a threat in the first place
3) It was based on the idea of rewarding loyalty from vassals and setting a precedent about outright TREASON
4) Did I mention that the Umbers and Boltons backed RAMSAY? Who was flaying vassals alive, hunting people for sport, was a kinslayer, etc?
5) In contrast, the “crimes” of Lord Glover and Lord Royce were complaining about Jon and suggesting that Sansa is more fit as a leader. Complaining about a king is NO crime and SHOULD be welcome in any decent court because grievances MATTER. So yes, even SUGGESTING that they, (especially Lord Royce, without whom House Stark would be lost) would lose their heads for lack of “loyalty” is outright tyrannical.
Yes, it is the duty of any decent leader to listen to what their subjects have to say, even if they don’t like it. Example? In season two, when Bran was listening to petitions with Maester Luwin, and the vassals insulted Robb. Luwin had to remind Bran that just because they don’t like what those people have to say, they have to listen. THAT is what Sansa did. She listened and declined the opportunity to usurp Jon and shut them down. And Arya responded by insulting her and implying that execution should be an option.
Sansa was letting two of her most powerful vassals be heard and then promptly shut them down, defending Jon and refusing their offer. Sansa has continuously and consistently passed up numerous opportunities to usurp Jon and seize power but she hasn’t. Her MO this entire season has been helping and supporting her family and people.
There’s a difference between disliking a character and accusing them of stuff without any basis whatsoever and searching for reasons to justify said accusations. I don’t like Daenerys much, but I’m not claiming she’s going full mad queen for using her dragons against Jaime’s army because that is BS. She’s at war and acting like it. I don’t like Cersei, but I don’t think she’s faking her pregnancy with Jaime. All this insistence that Sansa is going to “royally fuck up” in your words, and that Arya’s actions this episode were in any way JUSTIFIED is completely contradictory to everything we see.
You want to know why I think this is misogynistic? Because it’s nonsensical. And the basis for so much of the hate Sansa gets is over her being “weak” and “manipulative” and her somehow being “inferior” to women like Arya and Brienne, who eschew traditional femininity. Basically, she’s hated on typical misogynistic grounds. And the baseless accusations against her are tedious and read exactly the same way.
No one said you have to like Sansa. But that doesn’t in any way validate the idea that she’s evil, doing wrong, going to do wrong, or that the insults and accusations hurled at her by her sister were in any way justified. If you are really trying to make that point then yes, I’m going to assume your determined hatred of Sansa is based in misogyny like most determined Sansa hate.
(also, marking my comments as spam because they disagree with you? Honestly?)
I’m with you! Baelish needs to die and by Arya or Brienne’s hand.
And aside from the incest angle which is pretty yucky, I like the still waters run deep romantic dynamic building between Jon and Dany. Other than Mormount finally, and Tyrion in general, Jon is a rather rare encounter for her : he isn’t devious and has been direct about his purposes…and he is so noble by comparison to so many others.
I love them together! Terrible, I know.
Sansa likes having responsibility and likes being listened to; that’s what Arya is picking up on. She doesn’t lust for power like Dany, Cersei, Littlefinger. She’s more like Jon than anyone really. It’s pretty obvious Sansa isn’t going to do anything evil now. I mean, the moment Bran turned up she excitedly told him he was the Lord of Winterfell but he wasn’t interested. Before that she insisted, for example, that Jon should take Ned and Cat’s room (something Arya told k issue with) but he refused. They’re just dragging it out to add dramatic tension but that Winterfell side plot should be over soon.
i didn’t think dany seemed uncomfortable with jorah. i thought she seemed relieved she had a person she could trust and was genuinely upset that he volunteered to go north.
Seven years worth of whitewalker hype…I hope the wait is worth it.
I also hope we get some more backstory to them, because I have all kinds of questions.
Me too. I can’t believe the Whitewalkers are just straight up evil with no redeeming qualities and no sympathizing POV. That is usually not how GRRM writes. I’m assuming he means to gives us more surprising background information about them in the remaining two books. Plus Jon is too much of a Disney character- the loveable orphan/bastard who is really a king and is going to save the world from evil. GRRM usually turns things like that upside down and inside out. What if Jon Snow is not the Prince but the villain and the Whitewalkers not evil?
What I find annoying is how fast everyone is now able to travel. And now we have Jon and his rag-tagged crew beyond the wall…again! Can’t they just deal with the war of the two queens this season then wrapped it up with the Night King for the final season?
You guys. Dany is in love. Her kid met Mom’s new boyfriend and He was like “are you my new Dad?” The look on her face when Jon pet Drogon, the look of concern and hurt when he said he had to go home and she tried to make him stay. The fact that he told her he didn’t need her permission and she looked a bit turned on by it. And finally, she sees off Sir Friend zone like it’s a normal thing for her but looked like she was about to cry when Jon left. I think she will end up joining them in the fight because she won’t be able to sit there while the guy she’s really feeling and her BFF are in danger
Also, Jon and Gendry dialogue was so reminiscent of Robert and Ned’s exchanges it was so cute.
Jorah is going to respect Jon because his father did and so does his niece.
I’m loving that the Hound and Tormund are on the same team.
I hope Gendry finds out about Mi Lady, Arya. I ship them. Maybe Jon can legitimize him and he and Arya will unite their houses like Robert always wanted.
If Cersei is pregnant, it will be a stillborn. The prophecy only has her having 3 children, so its either that or she is lying. That would probably be something to set Jaime off in the future if he finds out she’s been manipulating him.
The most important piece of info in this episode is that Jon is a legitimate Targ and officially the rightful heir and rightful ruler. Even if the Tyrion theory is true, Tyrion would still only be a Bastard and product of rape, but that still remains to be fleshed out enough to really stick.
Yeah, but in contrast…. Jon didn’t even look back when they were sailing off. There was a marked contrast between how he treated Dany and how hopelessly-in-love Jorah did. He even indicated that she’d be happy if he died. Don’t get me wrong, they’re definitely going to sleep together, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the passion behind the #boatsex will be kind of one-sided.
I dunno, he was giving her puppy eyes all through that cave scene. I just think he is too preoccupied with the apocalyptic threat whereas Dany hasn’t really taken that seriously yet so she probably has made a space in her head/heart for love. Plus Jon still probably thinks she wants nothing more from him but to bend the knee. I think once he’s clued in to her feelings the ice might melt a bit. and I can’t wait for #boatsex lmaoo. He will show her his scars and his abs and she will be like you can have my Dragon Ass lolo
I didn’t see the puppy eyes. I saw attraction, but not nearly on the level she seems to have for him. I think it’s foreshadowing his reaction to finding out that Daenerys is his aunt.
Even though I have SERIOUS issues with the “Cake or Death?” approach Dany has been taking so far with things, I am defending most of her actions towards people who have gone to war against her and think the “Mad Queen” commentary thus far is overblown (though that ultimatum she gave Jon in the cave was vile). But given how the writers seem to be trying to frame things (let’s face it, Tyrion and Varys are meant to be right almost all the time, even when they’re clearly NOT), it seems like they’re trying to hint at that… or something. So I can see a Targbowl happening. That’s become more likely to me since they made the absurd decision to make Jon legitimate (and therefore give him a strong claim than Daenerys). But I can see flames fanned with them discovering the truth, Jon rejecting Dany overall based on that (and possibly other things. He probably won’t take kindly to discovering that Dany burned Sam’s brother. Randyll? Fine. He was a piece of shit. But Dickon was innocent) and that just adding fuel to the fire.
Yeah I saw parallels of Brandon and Rickard getting burned with Randall and Dickon. Don’t think that irony will be lost on Jon.
And I feel like Dany and Jon will experience a Nissa Nissa thing. I think Jon will forge Lighthbringer with Dany. His loyalty and honor to Dany if they indeed marry will be the sacrifice.
Yeah, like, I’m pretty mixed about her burning both Tarly men. On one hand, it is very “Cake or Death?” but on the other, Randyll Tarly is/was a tyrant and she can’t enforce arbitrary standards, especially when it comes to men who have literally taken up arms with their enemies against Houses they were sworn to. But Jon’s perspective will and should be entirely different. If I had to guess, I’d say that Sam will head North, probably to Winterfell (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Bran is the one who knows the truth while Sam and Gilly have found out about the annulment). And while Sam understandably doesn’t have much love for his father, Dickon has been portrayed as perfectly decent person who is a victim of circumstance. I can’t imagine Sam not having SOME reaction to his death, and Jon not having great sympathy by association. I also think it’s no coincidence that 1) Jon still doesn’t feel comfortable telling Daenerys the truth about his resurrection and 2) That Daenerys didn’t tell Jon about her ultimatum (and enforcement of said ultimatum) when she returned. On a narrative level, that screams of it becoming an issue.
There’s far more setup to “Targbowl” so far than there ever was to the supposed “Starkbowl” that was ultimately just a couple of arguments between Jon and Sansa over matters of state. The whole annulment thing (which is so stupid on so many levels and totally unnecessary) only seems to confirm that to me.
TBH, if they do intend to follow GRRM’s ideas at all at this point, then I don’t think the Nissa Nissa thing will be followed exactly (it would have been mentioned in the show by now). I do think Daenerys (probably Jon as well but almost certainly Daenerys) will die, and even if they don’t, the Iron Throne is going to be dismantled at the end anyways.
Since Jorah is now a third wheel, I wondered whether he will die on this mission (he returns to Dany all healed, only to die shortly afterwards). But on the other hand, I also think the Valyrian swords that we know of need fighters who know how to use them, and it makes sense to me that Jorah will eventually take Sam’s sword (since the sword is wasted in the hands of a poor fighter). So I’m hoping the writers will keep Jorah alive at least until the big battle next season.
I also think Pod’s training has to pay off at some point (both Bron and Brienne have now trained him). One possible scenario is if Brienne dies in battle, and Pod picks up the sword.
As for Jaime — since this last episode acknowledged that he is still not up to par as a fighter, most likely Bron will get Widow’s Wail? That means I’m counting on the writers to keep Bron alive until the big battle, too.
What could Cersei do if Dany goes North to kill the army of the dead that she isn’t already doing? It makes no sense that Dany thinks she can’t afford this important tactical move. Stannis went north first and everyone still considered him a huge threat to Joffrey.
Why couldn’t a dragon fly to the army of the dead, pluck up one of the wights and be back in twenty minutes (going by how fast everyone seems to travel in this episode)?
Ok, you’re getting ahead of yourself. Finding out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married does not demonstrate that Jon Snow is their child. Of course, we know it but how will the rest of Westeros? They got married but only Bran and I believe Ned’s friend and bannerman Howlen? Reed know the truth and can tell it … and if they did, who would believe it? The maestars apparently don’t care enough about the world to publicly announce marriage annulments, they’re already discarding Bran’s ‘psychic’ story about the dead army and Reed is enough of a Stark loyalist that it’ll look like a lie to continue the war over the Iron Throne. There would have to be more legitimate documentation in order to publicly legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Targaryean…otherwise, it’s just a ‘hey, you’re not a bastard’ nod to Jon Snow and that’s probably good enough.
As per Gilly, the Maester kept a record of EVERYTHING. Sam just didn’t let her finish. The birth of the Crown Prince most likely was on there as well. (Sir Arthur Dayne and the best Kingsguard would NOT just be guarding a random baby) Remember these were books and scrolls that were just left to collect dust at the Citadel. I’m sure that after Rhaegar and Lyanna died nobody bothered to care about disseminating that info. It’s a written record and once Sam goes back to join the rest and Bran tells Jon and nobody believes it, Sam or Gilly will be like, uh, we’ve got an official record of it, fyi
And then Sam takes the book, the written record, from Gilly and hands it to the toddler. Did you see that? And I’m thinking, Good God, no! The kid’s going to eat that page!
Right but the baby was born at the Tower of Joy and then immediately taken by Ned so there wouldn’t have been any recording of birth, just of pregnancy so that still doesn’t tie Jon to Rhaegar. You can make that leap but it’s not documented by anyone of authority. I don’t remember reading about or seeing (in the show) a maestar present. So I still think there’s a documentation problem…not that it matters at this point like Mrs. Krabapple says.
@BUS do you know, it would be a very George R.R. thing to do to make Jon Snow the actual heir to the throne, but because no one deseminates the knowledge, or due to general chaos, he does not in fact get the Iron Throne (whether he wants it or not) George R.R. is so into heartbreaking futility…
The main characters would probably believe it (the Starks, just from the timing of Ned returning with a baby right after Lyanna died; Dany, because of the affinity the dragons have with him; Cersei, since she’s a misogynist and would like to thin of Lyanna as a whore who broke up a marriage rather than an innocent victim). And at this point, I don’t think it matters to the general public what anyone’s birth right is. Cersei has no birth right to the iron throne. The north didn’t care is Jon was illigitimate. I think the battles will “win” the throne, not birth certificates.
Yea, it makes a lot of sense…just from knowing Ned and how responsible/honorable he was. Pretty much everyone would look at the entire situation and say: ‘that makes a lot more sense’ and believe it but lets say no one went to war, King Robert dies peacefully of old age, this documentation is discovered, etc. …would the lack of documentation be a problem preventing Jon from ascending to the throne or even being legitimized? But you’re 100% correct, documentation doesn’t matter at all at this point.
Littlefinger is back!!! He lost his touch this season before this episode. I love that he’s playing Arya. I really don’t like her character. I don’t get the “girl power!” rally cries for her – she’s a psychopath and dehumanized. I get it; she’s been through a lot, but still. If her and Sansa could bond and present a united front, instead of Arya just attacking her, Littlefinger wouldn’t be driving a wedge between them. But damn, I’d watch an entire show of Aidan Gillen smirking, so you go right ahead and drive that wedge Littlefinger. <3
I’m not here for Sansa as queen… if she really turns out to be such a massive fan of Cersei’s and is keeping Littlefinger so close because she knows what he wants from her and she’s actually considering it (him on the throne and her as his queen), even if it means putting her own brother at risk, then she can be the first Stark that I actually want to see meet their end on this show.
Are we really buying that Arya is like the master of disguise but Littlefinger is just so good that he’s the only one who has caught onto her? Meh. He planted that letter for Arya to find because now he wants to drive a wedge between the sisters, but that letter could cause problems in other ways as well. Once again: if Sansa continues to keep him close because of her own selfish interest in being queen (which is ridiculous), she can go.
I don’t believe Cersei is pregnant… I think that she only said that because she knows it was the surest way to get Jaime to remain loyal to her. However, if she is pregnant, I’m betting that the baby is a dwarf and/or she dies in childbirth. I saw this theory on Reddit and I liked it, so I’m going with it.
I’m really wondering where they’re going with the Dany/Jon storyline because it seems pretty clear that they’re interested in each other… especially her being interested in him. Her ovaries were about to explode when Jon pet the dragon. Will they find out they’re related before anything happens between them? Will they care? Targaryens are into incest, right?
I guess Sansa’s selfish interest in being queen is why she turned down the crown? FFS. She stated why she keeps Littlefinger around (armies, which they need, and to get all the dirt she needs on his crimes to get rid of him and retain his armies afterward). She has been nothing but A+ all season, but I guess Sansa hate will never give up, no matter how embarrassing your arguments get.
Sansa has a selfish interest in betraying Jon to steal his crown! Which we base on the exact opposite of what is actually on screen!
Sorry, Hun, but your faves were acting like jackasses while Sansa is feeding people and trying to make people work together. Sorry she doesn’t act all murder-happy like some lame, misogynistic, narrow definition of what a “strong” woman should be, but she has a kingdom to keep intact and she’s doing it.
Whatever, I can’t wait until your hopes for Sansa somehow being a villain are utterly annihilated and you guys can no longer pretend to be good at reading story or character. That will be fun. Unless you guys remain in denial and decide, once she gets rid of Littlefinger that she somehow is still a villain because the way she sneezed in one episode indicates the EEEEEEVIL she’ll do later. Sort of like the Starkbowl y’all were hyping so much amounted to her and Jon arguing for a couple of episodes.
You know this is fictional, right? Wendy, with all due respect, get a life. You’re borderline creepy with these comments. I don’t think anyone here is as emotionally invested as you are.
You seem to be…
I’m annoyed at real people, Hun. Get over yourself. (Also, using “with all due respect”… really? And the people who usually are the first to tell people to “get a life” usually don’t have one themselves).
Is using “with all due respect” too passive aggressive for you? Because it’s pretty much on par with you referring to every commenter you reply to here as “hun” before you go off on another bizarre, creepy rant that takes a strangely personal turn.
People who don’t have lives tell others to get them? Oh, is that how it goes? You seem to be an expert on all things. Thanks for your input. Maybe you should go outside and get some fresh air. Or some therapy… one can only assume you have a lot of personal issues when your outlet is fighting with strangers on the Internet over a television show and book series.
Anilewhatever: I’m so sorry I called out your BS about Sansa, but if you’re going to tell someone who fights with strangers on the internet over a show and book series, then you’re going to have to tell that to the entire internet. But it is a bit rich to see you getting all huffy about personal attack when that’s all your comments are. Or are you that at a loss for a decent response?
People who feel the need to tell others to get lives when they’re argued with tend to be covering for some manner of insecurity, yes.
The way we react to our media does not exist in a vacuum. And yes, the way people react to literally the biggest show on the planet and the way they decide to judge characters does speak to how they act as people. The Sansa hate in particular tends to be based in very misogynistic ideas, so yes, I will call out its lack of logic.
Wrong reply
Daenerys to Jon: *heart eyes*
Jon to Daenerys: New phone who this?
LOL
lol
I like Jon and Dany together but I don’t know if it will happen, after they find out they are related (and how long will that take?) I think they have plenty of chemistry smoldering. Ser Jorah is in a a class by himself—such a noble, handsome, elegant man, wow.
So yeah. This capture-a-wight plotline—DUMB! At least at first reveal. I was just “Are you kidding me?” What is the point—forming a temporary alliance with Cersei? Good luck with that.
Can’t wait till Cersei goes down. Can’t believe how weak Jaime is, still a slave to his “love” for her, still banging her silly? Come. On. He knows she’s evil at this point. Grow a pair, Jaime.
Loved seeing Jon touch Drogon. That boy needs a dragon to ride! Maybe Rhaegar….speaking of whom…seems that annulment was barely dry on the parchment when everyone died. (Assuming it’s accurate, see family tree here: http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-are-jon-snow-and-daenerys-targaryen-related-2016-6 ). #LISTENTOGILLY
Tyrion is getting on my nerves, which is a shame because I used to love him. A lot. But his lines suck this season.
I think one of two things will happen with Jon and Dany 1) They get married and rule together, or 2) They divide the Seven Kingdoms and each preside over a portion. Both will be rulers either way.
Next week will be EPIC!!!
I’m continually shocked at the number of people that seem to think Jon Snow is going to survive this show. I suppose Martin and now the GOT writers can do what they want, but everything about storytelling indicates to me that Jon Snow dies in service to his singular cause. He already feels, in his heart, that he should be dead. He doesn’t want to be King of anything. I totally see him dying – probably one of the last scenes of the show.
There’s no way in Hell that Rhaegar Targaryen can be considered honorable, FFS. He took a 15 year old girl from her home and family (I don’t care if she wanted to go, there’s no way that situation can be truly consensual and anyone who wants to argue that has a really poor understanding of how consent actually works), left his wife and children to be the hostages of his mad father WHILE disenfranchising them! He deserved a much worse death than what Robert Baratheon gave him, he deserved what Elia ended up suffering thanks to him, and more. But whatever, writers, disenfranchise a disabled WoC so your white male fave can have ALL HIS DREAMS COME TRUE! (regardless of how much it utterly undermines his character arc, especially on a thematic level. Why not go for Tyrion Targaryen next?)
Honor is not the only reason he might have annulled and remarried. Maybe he wanted legitimacy for his 3rd child, the 3rd head o’ the dragon. Purely egotistical reason.
How old was Rhaegor at the time? The book version, the events we are seeing now are all unfolding while Jon, Dany, Sansa are all still in their teens. As the books begin, they and Robb are all around 13 and 14 years old and they’re joining the Night’s Watch and getting married and proclaiming themselves king. Elia, Oberyn, Jaime, Cersei, Rhaegor, Robert, Ned, and Lyanna were all contemporaries. Lyanna was older than Ned.
He was around 24 years old. And had all the means to keep Lyanna prisoner regardless of whether or not she changed her mind about the whole thing (and who wouldn’t, after their father and brother were roasted alive for trying to protect you?) And actually, Lyanna was younger than Ned. It was Benjen who was younger than her.
Never thought it this way.
Rhaeger is truly the privileged white male is it not?
And damn Dornish people are pocs too.
Btw since GOT is based on middle age, 15 is more than age of consent. 15 is lady of house age.
In actual history women were having 2 kids and pregnant with 3 at the age
That’s actually a total myth. Like, completely untrue. (This is a HUGE pet peeve with me) While women could be married at a young age, consummation was expected to wait until a woman was 16 since her body wasn’t developed enough to properly carry/deliver a child (Edmund Tudor, father of Henry VII was considered a pedophile for impregnating his 13 year old bride, Margaret Beaufort, who never had children again after Henry VII despite multiple marriages. In contrast, there was a King and Queen of France who married when the queen was 12, but they didn’t have children until she was 19. And considering how them went on to have eleven children and were recorded to be ridiculously in love, it wasn’t for lack of attraction. Having sex with a 13 year old was considered highly distasteful at best) And taking a woman away from her family (especially without consent to marry her) was a HUGE crime. So yeah, the fact that Lyanna is/was 15 did matter. And Rhaegar would know that.
@Wendy, GRRM seems to not care and GOT isn’t history.
@isabelle: On the contrary, he’s actually explicitly addressed this in interviews. He has made a point of stating that the common wisdom and advice of the Citadel is that women are not impregnated and marriages are not consummated until the 16th year because doing otherwise would endanger fertility.
“In the “general Westerosi view,” well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.
Maidens may be wedded and bedded… however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.” — George RR Martin
link to the quote:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Age_of_Sexual_Relations_in_Westeros
(Also, I was explicitly addressing a comment someone made saying “in actual history, women were having 2 kids and pregnant with 3 by 15” so even if Martin hadn’t come out and contradicted this idea for canon, my comment is still completely valid)
I’ll be so annoyed if they make Tyrion a Targaryen. I know it’s a popular theory, but it completely undermines everything about his identity and his relationship with Tywin. It’d be terrible. I hope there aren’t any more secret Targs mooching around, but if anyone has to be I’d find the dramatic irony of it being Jaime and Cersei much more compelling (the implications of Jaime killing his own father, Tywin despising his true heir etc etc) I don’t think the show’s going there however, otherwise they wouldn’t have cut out Barristan’s speech about the Mad King and Joanna Lannister. There’s no real foundation for it on the show.
I think Rhaegar was 23/24 when all this shit went down?
Tyrion Targaryen is a horrifyingly elitist, ableist, sexist theory that predicates itself on basically all of the “Big Three” (Tyrion, Jon, and Dany) coming into the world through rape. It’s as if saying “Well, he may be a dwarf, but at least he’s also a Targ!!!” which… is ableism personified. People can just be important and have much to contribute without having secret dragon lineage.
Exactly this! I also think it would mean the narrative going some way to justify Tywin’s hideous treatment of Tyrion, so I’m 100% not cool with that. Tyrion is a Lannister through and through.
That too. And one of the things is that Tyrion totally IS Tywin! That’s the POINT. But then this is also the show that wants to make Tyrion into a nice guy as opposed to the vindictive, woman-slapping, elitist, molesting, rapist, murderer of the books so…
The entire point, another reason why it’s so irritating that Cersei is suddenly Tywin in a dress. Tyrion is hideous in the books, an out and out villain by the end of the fifth. I wonder if D&D didn’t want to be hit with the think pieces if they made him so vile in the show? The Lannisters are so messed up and so interesting and I think they’re the characters who’ve been most altered in the show and not for the better (Tyrion’s whitewashed, Cersei’s a player rather than a tragically paranoid pawn and Jaime’s been sidelined entirely). Tis a shame, because I think they’re also the best actors in it.
I have a different theory about the Jon/ Dany look of attraction at the Drogon “moment”: a dragon wouldn’t calm itself before anyone but a Targaryen. Drogon approached Jon because he recognized him as a Targaryen. In that moment when he allowed Jon to touch him, there was recognition from Dany that Jon must be a Targaryen if Drogon approached him and allowed the touching. And in some way–Jon recognized this too, even if subconsciously. But I am not a GOT scholar so this was just how I saw it.
I agree that’s the larger context, except I think Dany was shocked but didn’t overthink it (i.e. put 2 and 2 together yet).
@tracking. I think with the choices of a) attraction and b) sensing something about Jon’s dragon mojo, it’s a little of column A, a little of column B.
Rhaegar’s annulment – See, I just don’t agree that Rhaegar was a great fool and an a-hole to have sacrificed the entire kingdom and his family for Lyanna. Sure, he must have been in love but Rhaegar was always described by those who knew him as a good man, intelligent, quiet and melancholy and not really into violence. I can’t see him deliberately leaving Elia and their children to die and didn’t do anything about it. That would have put him in ‘mad Targaryen’ category and it was never implied or shown in the books that he ever displayed incredibly foolish or mad tendencies. I would even go so far as to say that he and Lyanna running away was carefully planned on his part since he knew exactly where they could go to hide out, and the only thing he didn’t see coming was the Stark father and son being executed, and Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn starting a rebellion.
I also don’t think D&D would have created this plotline without GRRM’s consent since this could stain the legend of Rhaegar and Lyanna that was basically touted by many fans as a great love story. If they intended for Rhaegar to be a callus SOB annulling his marriage and leaving Elia and their kids to die, then they put GRRM in a bad light, too.
Remember that Robert’s rebellion started shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away so we don’t know if Rhaegar could’ve annulled his marriage to Elia and still was able to tell her about it, and also was able to keep his older children’s succession rights. We just don’t know how things truly went down since everyone involved with the R&L relationship/marriage is now dead and all we have to go on are records and journals kept by Maester Maynard. If I remember the timeline right, Rhaegar was already dead at the Trident before the Lannisters marched to KL and sacked the city, and Tywin had Elia and her children murdered. Rhaegar was dead before Lyanna even gave birth.
It’s a possibility that Rhaegar demanded Elia and their children be sent back to Dorne for safety and his father refused, and that could also be the reason why Rhaegar finally marched into battle long after the war began: to save his children not only from the rebels but also from his own father. The rebellion lasted a year, at most, and Ned looked for Lyanna a little longer than several weeks. Had Rhaegar won and Robert’s rebellion crushed, who knows if Rhaegar might have overthrown his father, sent Elia back to Dorne, but still kept his older children’s succession rights? Who knows if Elia could’ve accepted the annulment and would have been fine with the new arrangement had she lived?
Lots of what ifs and shoulda, woulda, coulda with Rhaegar and Lyanna that we will never find out at this point because nobody is around to tell it except for Bran and Maester Maynard’s records. Lots of people died because Rhaegar fell in love and took Lyanna and ran away. But I honestly do not see Rhaegar to be so stupid and remorseless as to have left his older children to die without trying to save them first, especially when he was so obsessed about the “dragon must have three heads” meaning he wanted three children.
Rhaegar had no reason to think they weren’t safe where they were. They were surrounded by Kings Guards. He had no way to know that the Lannisters would turn on Aerys, that Jaime would kill Aerys and that in order to save his family’s place, Tywin would order Elia and the kids murdered so he could present them to Robert as proof of his allegiance.
Exactly, which is why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that Rhaegar 1) screwed over his wife and children by getting an annulment and marrying Lyanna and 2) left them to die at KL and didn’t do anything about it…on purpose. Annulment in the GoT world doesn’t have to mean the annulment we have in reality. Rhaegar could have given directives on how succession would work regarding his 3 kids should he die in battle since he would never have seen it coming that Elia and their children would be murdered. But we’d never know what could have been/might have been because we barely even know anything about R&L storyline except the beginning and even that is muddled with “did he/didn’t he abduct and rape Lyanna” angle.
And due to his obsession about the prophecy, why would he even abandon his own kids and render them illegitimate had he known the Lannisters would betray them? He would have saved his 2 older kids right away if he knew they were in danger, even if only to secure the “dragon must have three heads” prophecy with a 3rd child on the way.
Wait…..WERE they surrounded by Kings Guard though? Rhaegar had left the cream of the KG crop with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and taken Barristan and Lewyn Martell with him where Lewyn died at the Trident with him and Barristan bent the knee. I think Darry went with Rhaella to Dragonstone. I could be wrong, but I think when everything went sideways, it was only SIXTEEN YEAR OLD Jaimie Lannister left to protect Aerys, Elia, and her two children. THAT was incredible negligence in my opinion. Elia and her children were killed when Jaimie was waiting in the throne room for Ned to stroll in.
I really should stop reading the comments but I do not understand those who say the show runners are going off script. Do people not think that GRRM didn’t give them a broad outline of what is going to happen?
Like with the Sand Snakes plot. No, Ellaria wasn’t murderous, but Arianne Martell resented that Doran was seemingly doing nothing to avenge their family and was keeping secrets from her. She was also thrown in with the Darkstar/Gerold Dayne……so really it’s not a stretch to think that eventually Arianne or someone affiliated with her gets rid of Doran. Or with people complaining that Sansa marrying Ramsay and being raped by him isn’t in the books and the show runners like rape (which this isn’t a total defense of them bc they come off as whiny little whitextra snowflakes when criticised) ……but would it have been better to portray the fake Arya plot with Jeyne? Where Ramsay rapes and tortures her? I don’t understand the picking and choosing.
I always thought though that Rhaegar took 2 wives, not an anullment. But I wonder if Elia knew/consented? Bc I can’t see a High Septon, unless he was an as s kisser, setting aside the mother of the heir to the throne. When she provided an heir! Just bc the prince wanted it. And also unless Elia was willing that would cause them to lose Dorne. Maybe I am over thinking it but I think there is more to it. It would be hilarious if it was basically Elia and R deciding to separate and Elia was to go back to Dorne or stay as mother to the heir, etc. But we’ll see. I don’t see R and Lyanna as this grand love story either way. But I don’t think he ever thought his wife and children would be raped and murdered.
When a marriage is annulled, the children are no longer legitimate heirs. They can’t continue using their father’s name. That is why annulments are to be granted only to couples who never consummated their marriage and thus avoiding screwing over their children. By removing his first son as heir as well as his daughter, Jon would automatically be his only heir. Honestly this is character assassination.
Elia would have had to leave KL and move back to Dorne. Otherwise she and her children would be shone by other nobles. She probably would have taken her children and left but King Aery was holding her hostage to force Dorne not to join the rebellion.
Second thoughts on inheritance. Logically if Rhaegar really thought Lyanna will give birth to the savior of mankind I can see him sacrificing his wife and other children for the greater good. If he kept his marriage and made Lyanna his 2nd wife, Jon would be third and last on the totem pole. And Lyanna would not ever be as respected as his first wife, a Dornish Princess.
So in his mind Jon was the baby Jesus and Lyanna, his mother Mary. They had to always come first. He would have to spend all his time training Jesus (Jon) to win the great battle. Jon as the only heir would be not have to deal with sibling rivalry. He will always be viewed as a future leader of house Targaryen. Westeros had to learn to respect and obey him when the time comes for him to ask them to join him in fighting the Whitewalkers. So yeah removing all emotion it makes sense.
They went off scripted early on actually, even from the books that have already been published there are major plot differences between them and the show. G.R.R. Martin has spoken about it many times. He described it as a snowball effect, how a few small deviations from his plot can grow to very large discrepancies. Sansa is an example. She never marries Ramsay in the books. The show actually made her into a major character, while in the books she was only a supporting character at best.
I’ve been rolling my eyes for years at the calls to see Gendry again. When he wielded that hammer like Robert, I got it.
Why didn’t Drogon’s affection for Jon mean something to Dany? I know the dragons are safe with those they’ve known since “childhood”, but Jon was a stranger and somewhat of an enemy. Dany should have sat up and said WTF is this?
I think Drogon’s affection meant something subconsciously, but that she hasn’t quite connected the dots. I think she probably assumed that Drogon’s behavior might have had something to do with her presence, since she ordered no aggression towards Jon and the dragons seem to have become better-trained. But I saw at least a flicker go off in her head when she observed them.
I am not here for people saying Dany is following in her father’s footsteps. Had she really been going on the Mad Queen route, she would’ve burned entire cities and people from the beginning and laughed and laughed about it. But she did not. She always offered an alternative and allowed people a choice. It is not her fault that people chose death over pledging their loyalty to her. Could she really go about it any other way? Ask people to bend the knee and when they refuse, just send them to be imprisoned? If she acted like that nobody would follow and respect her. Her Dothraki khalasars would have probably killed her or abandoned her too, because they only follow the strongest of leaders and Daenerys showing leniency in a time of war is not showing herself to be a strong leader. She gave her word: swear fealty or die. This is war we’re talking about here. There’s no place for “But she could have gone about it in a cuter way! She didn’t have to burn them alive! That was so nasty!”
As Cersei said in this same episode, a soldier must know his choice. And Randyll Tarly certainly did, didn’t he? He wasn’t going about it pleasantly, either. He would never have fought for Daenerys had she spared his life. He insulted, defied, and disrespected her in front of the Lannister and Tarly soldiers, and in front of her own forces. Had Daenerys allowed him to live, the rest of the Lannister army would have disrespected her too and gladly taken imprisonment over bending the knee. Daenerys might as well pack up and go back to Essos if she does not punish an open act of mutiny.
People taking issue with her burning people alive is just nitpicking. Burning people alive is disturbing and unnecessary and brutal? LMAO! Everyone who ever died in Game of Thrones met a brutal end: beheaded, had their throats cut, had rats tunneled into stomachs, skull crushed, cut up and stuffed into pies, stabbed in the pregnant belly, fed to starving dogs, flayed and displayed on a cross, shot with a crossbow, pushed off a bridge into the seas below, poisoned, blown up by Wildfyre, even random little boys killed and burned, etc. There was no death in GoT that was ever peaceful except for Olenna’s. People saying Daenerys was too brutal is doing exactly what she asked Jon NOT to do: blame her for her father’s sins, projecting Aerys II’s madness onto his daughter. Everyone in GoT was/is a product of their own parents. Yet nobody is ever vilified for it as Daenerys. We never blamed Tywin for the monster that is Cersei. We never blamed Roose for the monster that was Ramsay. We never blamed Robb for following Catelyn’s foolish march into war with the Lannisters…but Daenerys uses her dragons and suddenly she’s mad just like her father and she must be stopped?!
Bingo. I have been posting about it non stop up thread,so ine line: I agree.
Acc to me, it has got a lot to do with the fact, ever since she stopped being the underdog, she is the woman running for a top office in real world. Everything is judged in 10 times harsher standard. And there in lies our inherent misogyny, conditioned deep down in our subconscious
Agree.
Tyrion isn’t innocent. He was there when the slave masters were killed by Grey Worm and he was OK with it. He used wildfyre that killed Davos’s son…but he recoils at the sight of what war with a dragon looks like and we’re supposed to sympathize with his misgivings?
Jamie still gets away with a lot of shit, considering right before Drogon and Dany showed up, he and his crew murdered everyone at Highgarden and thought nothing of it. He also told Bronn to rough up the peasants in giving up their harvests, and we all know what “persuading” can mean in GoT world: everything from threatening to kill the peasants and raping their wives and daughters, and killing entire families who refuse. Tarly himself said they should flog the soldiers so they could move faster. These weren’t innocent people by any means, but their actions get ignored or dismissed because it’s war and this is what happens when people are at war.
But Dany meted out a punishment after she was defied and disrespected, yet she’s the mad, villainous one? I always see people saying without her dragons, Dany would be nothing. Well, duh. The dragons are her weapons just like Jon has Longclaw and Arya has Needle. So what if she uses her dragons? Are they supposed to just fly and roar?
You don’t think Cersei will kill Bronn do you?
Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn have a bad personal history of some sort so they are rarely if ever in the same scene and their characters have no interaction. So, she might have him killed but she won’t be the one to kill him.
Hopefully.
Bronn is my favorite!
Well technically Jon is Danys nephew so that would explain the dragon petting. I felt lost watching last night. Things weren’t clicking and it seemed rushed. When it ended I thought, was I even watching???
I just wanted to say (and will probably repeat the next couple of weeks) GOT is not historical in any way, shape or form. It’s fantasy, so trying to make historical comparisons to prop-up any events that seem inappropriate by modern (or ancient) standards is fruitless.
Just as pointless, is the attempt to explain, excuse or justify the behaviors of the characters, so that good triumphs over evil and honour is respected or restored. MOST of the character’s actions are morally ambiguous if not outright contradictory. Trying to make total heroes or total villains out of them is forcing a moral framework on the story that just isn’t there. It’s a game, not a story of virtue and justice prevailing.
+10000
It’s just me and you, though……everyone else is looking for a redemption story.
I really disagree that the plot was stupid. Everything is coming together and I really liked this episode 😊
Kit and Emilia have no chemistry…. I wish they did. And these episodes are really getting silly. The writing is really bad right now in my opinion…. I’m sad about it.
I don’t feel it either
I do question what they are giving screentime to. What happens to all the lady characters while the Magnificent Seven face Whitewalkers? Sam shushing Gilly was obnoxious even if he was sick of Maesters in that moment. And the whole Whitewalker capture plan is like releasing a contagion on King’s Landing. In one fell episode, this season went south for me. Interesting how Benioff/Weiss didn’t write this one. They are probably spending too much time on their ill-advised (dumb) Confederate series.
Yeah – this had some ‘oh how convenient’ moments in it that the show usually avoids. That Sam/Gilly one was just annoying as hell.
It’s interesting – prior to this weekend, I thought that everyone should give Benioff/Weiss a chance with this Confederate thing. See it at least first and then judge. But after this weekend, I changed my mind. I wonder if they also are perhaps thinking that history is not enough of history to make that entertaining, even in a ‘showing the evils’ kind of way. I have no idea how far along they are with it.
I gotta give credit to Emilia for her acting this episode. Superb. Her eyes showed a variety of emotion from her flat delivery of “dracarys” in burning the Tarlys which meant, to me at least, that she did not enjoy handing out that sentence but she had to do it anyway; to her genuine happiness at seeing Jorah; to actual fear and internal panic when she learned Jon was leaving and going on a dangerous mission, and her proud/shocked/turned on face when Jon gave her the speech of not needing her permission because he’s a King/he trusted her and now she must trust him. She really sold Daenerys’s emotions.
Also that moment when she called her dragons beautiful and Jon didnt agree, she turned around so quickly and stared him down LOL! She was like an offended momma bear, “What do you mean my children aren’t beautiful?!!” And Jon immediately going, “Yes, gorgeous beasts!”
There are SEVEN of them heading north. I think it’s a deliberate (and amazing) reference to Seven Samurai, certainly nothing remotely like Ocean’s Eleven! Only three samurai are left at the end of the film, so I hope the GoT plot doesn’t follow it that closely and we see all of them return. Let’s face it, some of them will die, it’s GoT we’re talking about here, but I hope The Hound isn’t one of them (although it would be a noble end).
I started re watching all the old seasons. I’m on season 4 right now. If I compare the character development and dialog from the earlier season to what we have now, it’s really gone downhill. All the characters used to be funny/ witty/ interesting/ complex and now the show is turning into a minimal dialog/ silly action movie. I can’t wait for the next book to come out. The show is getting ridiculous at this point.
Is Cersei actually pregnant? How did that slip in there?
So, if she is, I think we are seeing the end of her and she will be dead before 9 months is out. The witch who prophesied about Cersei’s life, children, and her end, said that she would have three children and they would all die. The witch has been totally correct thus far and so if she is indeed pregnant, she will either lose the baby or die pregnant. Hmmm.
After the war, Dany marries Gendry to unite those factions. Jon becomes the semi-autonomous King/Warden of the North. Because Dany can’t have more children, either Jon’s child or Sansa’s child becomes Dany’s heir.
A bit of randomness here, but does anyone else hope that Lady Stoneheart will come in by way of Sansa? It seems like she is being set up–there hasn’t been a major character death in awhile, and Littlefinger would be a great target for Stoneheart’s ire. You have Beric (who gives is re-up life force to Catelyn) and Thoros who can do the resurrection, and the Hound that would make them do it. The Hound referenced about life being fair for the farmer and his daughter when they stayed at the farm, so I could see him trying to get Sansa resurrected. Then Sansa would also be a link between the living and the dead.
Wishful thinking–missing Lady Stoneheart, and I could see Sansa’s deeply-closeted rage doing some real damage to her enemies.
I think the Lady Stoneheart ship has sailed and instead they lumped her big plot —destroying the Freys —and gave it to Arya.
Not enough episodes left not only of this season but of the entire series to go into that kind of detail just to get rid of Baelish. BUT I could be wrong. Don’t think so, but I could be.