On Tuesday, “evangelical leaders” (re: Baptists) released a manifesto, clarifying and stating outright their current thinking on the LGBTQ+ community. Their thinking is that they hate everything about the LGBTQ community. The so-called “Nashville Statement” was signed by 150 evangelical leaders during the (I sh-t you not) Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Per HuffPo, the signers included “many prominent and influential evangelical leaders, including Steve Gaines, president of The Southern Baptist Convention, Russell Moore, president of the SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. Perkins was also reportedly one of the architect’s behind President Donald Trump’s ban on transgender service members.” Here’s part of the Nashville Statement:
“Our true identity, as male and female persons, is given by God. It is not only foolish, but hopeless, to try to make ourselves what God did not create us to be.”
WE AFFIRM that self-conception as male or female should be defined by God’s holy purposes in creation and redemption as revealed in Scripture.
WE DENY that adopting a homosexual or transgender self-conception is consistent with God’s holy purposes in creation and redemption.
The fact that all of these evangelical leaders came together THIS MONTH, THIS YEAR, THIS CENTURY just to issue a manifesto on the LGBTQ community is really… well, Peak 2017. Where was this kind of across-the-board condemnation for the violent neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville? Wait, you’re saying this is all about white supremacy and toxic masculinity? Well, I never! And where was the across-the-board condemnation for Donald Trump’s grab-’em-by-the-p-ssy comments, or his withdrawal from the Paris Accord, OR EVEN THE HOUSTON FLOOD? These f–king people just got together because they decided that of all things we needed to deal with this year, they just wanted to make it clear that they’re still going to bully, shame, malign and hate LGBTQ people.
I’ve made a handy list for issues that did not deserve a manifesto from the country’s evangelical leaders:
Rampant sexual assault in the military = no statement
Rampant sexual assault on college campuses = no statement
Hate crimes against LGBTQ Americans = no statement
Hate crimes against the African-American community = no statement
The rise of environmental disasters brought on by climate change = no statement
The rise of white supremacist hate groups, many of them self-identifying as Evangelical = no statement
Violent neo-Nazi Charlottesville riot = no statement
A president who brags about sexually assaulting women = no statement
LGBTQ people just living their lives, falling in love, minding their business = MASSIVE STATEMENT OF CONDEMNATION.
I can't believe I am reading this in 2017. #NashvilleStatment is by far the most hateful 2 paragraphs toward the LGBTQ comm I've read thisYr pic.twitter.com/3SfiZhkGxE
— ❄️Lorena (@Lorena27954555) August 30, 2017
Photos courtesy of Getty.
these people are a cancer and more of a danger to the rest of us than anyone in or from the middle east
You are absolutely correct.
They are trying to influence as many as possible with their bully pulpit. People, LGBTQ people are some of the nicest and sweetest people you will ever meet. Don’t believe these demented cult freaks.
@Sabrine – they’re human. Which means they’re as jerky as the rest of us, but evidently for conservatives their humanity is in question.
+1000000000
And for sure – FOR SURE – a bunch of these self-righteous non-Jesus-y hypocrites are gay, trans, bi etc. themselves, and hoping desperately that none of their compatriots find out.
i completely agree with you
Preach. I can barely breathe, this makes me so angry.
Totally ! !! They’re just a well connected hate group .
This along with the NRA.
It’s Trump. Every hateful, toxic little shroom is popping up with glee. They see this as their time.
co-sign
This this this.
I say some version of this every day, particularly when confronted with the current climate of Islamophobia in this country.
All this fear about Sharia law being imposed when we have a legislative branch that passes laws based on Christian Fundy ideology. It’s so f*cked up.
Exactly right, Lisa — THEY are the abomination, not LGBTQ people. And it’s no coincidence that these extreme rightwing bigots are feeling empowered to amp up such hateful rhetoric now without fear of repercussions — just like the abominable neo-Nazi white supremacists, these self-appointed judges of humanity feel legitimized by the election of Donald Trump.
And just think, if somehow Trump’s atrocious “presidency” should end before his term is up — via impeachment, resignation, or his involuntary commitment to a facility for the insane — our new POTUS would then be the abominable Mike Pence, who represents all of the above. So even when I daydream about a Trump-free White House, I find myself facing the fact that in the foreseeable future there is no viable follow-up for sane, humane Americans.
I completely agree.
Re: Baptists. Not all Baptists are Southern Baptists. There are Baptist Congregations that have welcomed the LGBTQ Community. ‘These people’ do not speak for all baptists, and the generalization is unfair. And yes, THOSE People are hateful.
Thanks to people like this is why I don’t follow any religion. It’s nothing but a bunch of cults of you ask me. Let’s blindly follow a book written over 2000 years ago by MEN and just condemn anyone who doesn’t meet their agenda. Ahhh what would Jesus do?
you and me both, chicken.
yup me too. Though I got in real shit last week from my mom and sis because of it (both are very religious but whatevs I have zero f–s to give)
SAME! I would like to pass around my own manifesto. I AFFIRM that the evangelical signers of the Nashville Statement are a bunch of evil, deplorable hypocrites and I DENY that they have any authority to condemn others for personal matters of sexuality by birth or choice.
It’s bad enough that they believe this religious nonsense but trying to impose it on to everyone else is a disgrace. Until they can produce the evidence that confirms the existence of their sky daddy they should FRO.
It’s a shame. I am fortunate to know many people who find great comfort and community in their church, and who use that to lift people up, not tear them down. It just does not have to be like this.
Exactly. And is this REALLY the time?!
How about a message of unity right now?
I’m about to attempt to shop vac a foot of water out of my friend’s living room ffs!!!
This is the exact right time for them. They have the right man in the white house, the right people in government, and the right climate in which to espouse their hatred and intolerance. AND they have a huge disaster to deflect their crap.
This is exactly the time, if you ask them. Natural disasters, pandemics, they are God’s punishment for our modern, sinful ways…
Never mind that plague, bad harvests etc. meant people barely made it to fifty, back when the church was truly powerful, and 99% of people believed in God.
Never forget, polls continue to show that athiests are the most disliked group in North America! Never mind the fact that athiest don’t kill in the name of any god or try to force people to believe what they believe and in many countries athiests are jailed or killed for not joining the main religion.
Further proof of religions actual end game: Control, control, control, suppression of free-thought, control, control, suppression of critical thinking, control, control
There are such crazy ideas about atheists out there. I once had a teacher who would go on and on about how atheists are loveless people, because only they who know the love of God are capable of feeling love themselves. No, really! She’d even found a textbook that supported her. Not my best grade that year, after I blew up…
That is ridiculous but there are some nasty selfish atheists too or smug ones who feel superior to others who aren’t. There are no answers.
The lady who started the movement didn’t help matters by being so obnoxious and mean. For some people that is their only brush with it.
People are so ridiculous I have heard stories of people rejecting help because someone is an atheist. Or immediately imagining they are mean and morally corrupt or some garbage.
I have problems with people and their actions, not their label.
Some atheists are obnoxious and smug. Me, I’d rather have some tiresome besserwisser lecture me, than be in the crosshairs of a religious extremist. However, tastes differ.
Are you sure “cults” isn’t a typo? Because I can think of a very similar word to describe this bunch of bloody hypocrites. Just change one letter and its’s there….
Eh. I’m ELCA Lutheran. We’re a Reconciling in Christ community, aka everyone of all sexual orientations and gender identities is welcome. I’m pro-choice. I believe in evolution. I believe in healthy sexuality. I believe in paying my fair share of taxes for the greater good. Not to play the “not all _______” card, but truly – these folks are crazy. Many religious people are sane and not using the bible to justify self-loathing.
These people are completely nuts. There is no other way to describe them – completely unhinged, out of touch nut jobs.
Look, I try to leave everyone to their own religion. If it helps you, then it helps you. I mean believing in science helps me, and I often don’t have any proof, a lot is taken on faith.
But don’t walk around forcing your beliefs on anyone – that’s what makes these people evil.
What? Science is never taken in faith!!! What are you saying!!!
Science is all about evidence. You don’t “Believe in science” science is the collection of facts based on empirical truths found through research. Science is a way of calculating truths. It’s the opposite of “taking on faith.” And when new better information refutes or improves old studies, the theories are adapted.
o_O
“believing in science” Er, science is true whether you “believe” in it or not. You can have bad science and science that’s flat out wrong, but that’s just it–it’s WRONG. It’s not a “different belief” or a “different perspective of looking at it” it’s wrong, period.
This is how you know science education worldwide is failing utterly.
Ok not to get too philosophical but how do you know it is THE answer? And not one answer.
When scientists are proven wrong everyone has believed it up until they are proven wrong. So we would have to have faith that they used the correct methodology and are honest with their research and that the answer is right. Even with that, the answer is right *at this time.*
As we advance new things are discovered that changes an answer because of better technology and a new variable that has to be taken into account. Maybe.
I love science because I do find it mysterious and there are a lot of answers but I like that it can be fluid at times.
You do have to believe in science and make that clear because some people don’t.
F*ck these men. They are simply pandering to their own base. Stoking hate and fear among their sheep is what they do best.
That’s really the kicker — this has nothing to do with their faith. It’s all about their own egos and power. They are using the shield of the church to amplify and impose their own hatred. To quote our President: sad!
Pretty sure Nashville does not stand for this (lived there for 4 years during college).
Evangelicals are pretty awful
I assure you this does NOT reflect who Nashville is in 2017! I’m appalled and disgusted that they had to include my beloved city’s name into their hate-filled manifesto.
First of all, these idiots do not speak for my church community. Second, every time they draw a circle to keep people out, they should remember that Jesus was out on the edges of the circle trying to bring people in.
Exactly. I attend a Baptist church and this statement is NOT what I believe. What about compassion?
Such a bunch of hypocrites.. There’s a line in “Hannah and her Sisters” where someone says, “If Jesus came back and saw what was going on in his name, he’d never stop throwing up.”
Thank you for this. I’m a Tenneessean born and bred and these gutless godless freaks DO NOT IN ANY WAY speak for me and many many many others. They sure as heck don’t speak for ANY higher authority. This is fundamentalist circle-jerking. Damn them for putting Nashville in the title of this abomination. DAMN THEM
Thank you. Its very lazy thinking, bigoted & myopic to believe all christian churches are exactly the same with the same beliefs. I
Exactly, Deedee!
Whenever a politician or other public figure goes out of their way to spew such hate against the LGBTQ community, I have to wonder what they are so afraid of or hiding? I bet a search of various gay hookup sites may show some familiar faces. That sound I hear must be skeletons rattling around in their closets.
THIS!!! I think this every time. They’re obsessed with hating the LGBTQ community to the point that it really makes you wonder why.
Even if you were the kind of lunatic who thinks there’s something wrong with being gay/trans, why on earth would you care if someone else was?
Unless what you’re really terrified of is someone finding out you’re attracted to gay/trans people?
I totally agree. They had that one semi-homo-sexual thought that one time and they quickly suppressed it because they thought it was wrong and then turned that fear into hate and turned it outwards projecting it at others.
I understand that some people are overcompensating but there are straight people who are homophobic. Its not too crazy to believe that.
My mom’s friend’s ex-husband was a cop who used to hate on people of color all the time and came from a notoriously racist bigoted family. Well low and behold one day he came out of his personal “closet” and ended up marrying a black woman (second wife). Its very much overcompensation with some of these people IMHO.
And now he’s cured of his racism, praise be…? That poor wife of his.
F those guys…this “statement” is so unnecessary. Why don’t they try helping people instead of putting people down. If there is a god, I think he’s smiling at the people who live their truth and frowning on this fire and brimstone religious nuts.
America land of freedom and opportunity. Terms and conditions apply.
All animals are equal, only some animals are more equal than others.
I f-ing hate today already and it’s only 830 am.
If that’s what God demands then that God is a piece of shit. I am an atheist. Raised as such. I do however feel that if God is what gives people purpose and peace of mind, then God is good. But these numpties forget that ‘the word of God’ was written by the fallible hand of a human.
If God exists, and if he created the world and the humans in it, then God would be pretty upset with some of his children tormenting his other children for being gay or trans, or female. If I was a mother, I would be, and I am just human.
So these people could take a few lessons in humility. Isn’t that a divine virtue? Screw these people and their cruelty. I am disgusted, reading this shit makes me rot from the inside. Don’t use your God (or your crutch, because so many do use God as a crutch) to bludgeon others.
How stupid are these people that they think this is THE week to release this? Stupid and hateful…what a winning combination.
I think they truly believe this is the week to do this because of what has happened. They can point to Harvey and say “See, God is smiting us because of these people” This is a tweet from Ann Coulter
Ann Coulter ✔ @AnnCoulter
I don’t believe Hurricane Harvey is God’s punishment for Houston electing a lesbian mayor. But that is more credible than “climate change.” https://twitter.com/POLITICOMag/status/902364893940154368 …
10:31 PM – Aug 28, 2017
Honestly, Coulter is such a thirsty try-hard that I can’t even get that angry with her anymore. She’s been doing this since Bill Clinton was President and she just doesn’t get the attention she used to. Yawn.
Right. She is irrelevant because crazies are in the White House now. No one needs her.
swak,
Sorry if I seemed dismissive of your comment, I didn’t mean to be! I have just long found Coulter’s game of being outrageous just for the sake of it to be so tiresome. I’m not even sure that she believes it herself anymore.
She’s not witty or original. Pat Robertson has been saying that stuff since Noah and the Ark.
I seriously want to punch a wall right now. Thanks, Swak!
I’d rather punch Ann Coulter, but you can’t always get what you want. And violence is not the answer (at least I keep trying to tell myself that)
If there had been no dead, If there were no families losing everything, I would be the first to point that it is indeed God pointing the finger. But not to punish innocents for the existence of a lesbian mayor. Just saying “remember the Paris Accords ?”.
But it is a disaster and I will, respectfully, abstain. Maybe they should too.
I guess all these guys must have one of those special bibles that only Evangelical hypocrites get, you know – the one with the asterisk by “Love your neighbour” (and the list of exceptions in the appendix) as well as the book of the prosperity gospel.
Thank God I’m an atheist or I’d have to alienate a goodly chunk of my social circle…
That bible also has the Book Of Joel, in which God tells Joel Osteen that he was meant to be rich.
LAWL
😂😂😂😂😂😂
The higher the facelift, the closer to God.
@returningvisitor
Love the snark. lol
LMBAO. Thanks for the chuckle paranormal. Lord but these Evangelical fools make me tired. Angry too but mostly just tired.
Evangelicals are absolutely OBSESSED with sex. Why do they work so hard to control it?
This is why I stopped going to church and will never take my children to church. I thought the message of Jesus was to love others and not to judge, since that’s God’s job. These people have reversed that completely: judge and hate others. How do they think they’re following the Bible??
This. It happens in muslims world too. The most intolerant groups are always the one who obsess with sex. I always wonder why.
Have thought a lot about this aspect of many organized religions.
Beyond the obvious historical fear of women’s sexuality and power in particular, I think – in general – it has very much to do with personal agency.
If someone can trust and follow their own desires; if they can freely express and enjoy that natural part of themselves, without blanket community condemnation or eternal spiritual damnation; if they can see the way to happiness and liberation and pleasure and deep connection may always be within reach, within themselves… well, a lot of the reason why they’d ever need, seek or bow to another opinion or external dictate evaporates.
Control. Sexuality is the perfect ingredient for perpetual blackmail: turn thoughts & acts of something natural, that never completely disappear or remain entirely suppressed, into a crime; and in that way, every time there’s an urge, or temptation, or a pleasurable expression, you’ll always have the receipts over the person’s mind and body – receipts generated first by the hapless person who’s doing your own dirty extortion work for you, simply by having natural thoughts… but immediately being shamed by your “No.”
(In A Clockwork Orange, that creep in the lab coat – helpfully applying the sacrament of the eyedrops in the cinema – might as well be dressed as a priest or preacher representing the worst sorts of churches and ‘religious’ teachings, practices and intentions.)
Because when you politically charge a behavior that is unavoidable biologically and almost universally shared, you can weaponize it to control a population.
IMO, there are people who selectively choose a few words and ignore the bigger message of peace and love.
Because someone attends church or preaches does not elevate them to be a judge of others, or that their personal relationship with God (if they have one) is any more special.
I grew up in the southeastern United States, surrounded by a**holes like these. As a little girl in pigtails, I was regularly told that I was going to hell, with full gory descriptions of exactly what would happen to me there, by adult southern Baptists in our neighborhood. And this is exactly the kind of attitude that convinced me to never set foot in church again!
That’s sick and how is that not child abuse?
Same here, honey, except in Missouri.
Testify! Same region of the country here.
After a local school bus crash on the news, an older woman from our Southern Baptist church called our house and asked my mother if all her children had ‘walked the aisle.’ When my mom said we were not all Baptized yet, the woman reminded her that in that case, we’d all be going straight to hell, had it been us in the bus.
Instead of defending us, my mom cried… and then alternated between martyr-wailing, caterwauling from the lavatory, and yelling at us the entire rest of the week… blaming us for embarrassing her in front of another church member, blaming the older children for not showing the younger ones how it’s done, blaming us all for humiliating her by going to hell.
To top it all off, she eventually declared that we might as well not mock God with our prayers before bed anymore, since it was obvious He wouldn’t be listening to the likes of us.
Not a fan of cruelty, dread, shame and psychosis as fundamental tenets of religious doctrine.
Yikes, your mom clearly suffers from some type of narcissistic personality disorder. That’s awful.
From your lips to God’s ears, pinetree13.
(I really like your moniker, btw 🙂
Why are people so fucking close minded and mean? God might not even be a real thing, so what gives these people the right to say God created us and it’s a sin for us to change?
As our family begins to navigate the female to male transition of my trans son, this scares the hell out of me. He is applying to law school and schools in Canada are on the list in case we decide leaving the US is necessary for his safety. I never, ever would have imagined a child of mine fleeing America for their life. Now it is entirely imaginable.
I am sorry it is imaginable, in 2017, but I respect and admire you recognize it and are already taking steps to protect.
Come to Canada. All my good luck towards his acceptance to uni here.
Aaang, all my best from my family and me. My daughter is gay and lives in Washington DC. She and her partner have a very welcoming community. Though I can’t imagine what you are going through, do know there are many good people still. I am sure that is hard to think of right now. All good wishes for your son.
Any applications to Boston universities? He will be safe here.
Carefully research the colleges/unis he wants to attend and look for those with a robust LGBTQ community. He’ll be safer there.
These are end times, I swear.
I just sounded like one of the nuns who raised me. Great. I’m becoming an Irish nun.
The very best of luck for your son and all your family, Aang. You have more and more people behind you every day. That’s what scares those creeps. I’m glad you’re thinking ahead! If only it hadn’t been necessary.
There are rankings for LGBT safety and acceptance for colleges and universities.
Not sure I put that correctly. By acceptance, I mean being part of a healthy, happy community. My little girl was lucky in this.
These people need Jesus.
No seriously, this is f*cked. “It is not only foolish, but hopeless, to try to make ourselves what God did not create us to be.” Then why are you trying so hard to be an assh*le? You weren’t born one so who are you to decide it’s acceptable to behave like the douchiest d*ck that ever was?
That’s my reaction, too! How come these people who actually believe in Christ are more in need of him than I, who doesn’t believe in him, am?
By contrast, the food bank I volunteer at is organised by Christians – not secular/cultural Christians as most Brits who describe themselves as Christians are – but actual believers. AND THEY ARE NOT LIKE THIS. They are lovely, kind, egalitarian, inclusive people, guided by their faith to be that way.
“They are lovely, kind, egalitarian, inclusive people, guided by their faith to be that way.”
At the risk of being presumptuous, I suspect these people would still be good people doing good things even without religion to guide them.
I expect they would, yes.
I’m not that good at knowing anything about religious types – the foodbank geezers are the only ones I know! I almost didn’t sign up to volunteer because I thought they’d be all evangelise-y but they aren’t. No mention of religion at all or any posters or pamphlets or anything like that, in case they put anyone in need off attending. They do have a little five-minute pray together at the end, but only the volunteers, not the clients, and I just go off and make the tea while they’re doing that.
I’ve detested the Baptist faith for quite some time after an ill-fated year long marriage to one. His parents would send us pamphlets about how horrid Catholics (me) were and how the pope is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And the irony of it all was he and his dad were bouncing checks and both physical/mentally abusive to their spouses. Very unchristian activity that they felt would be forgiven because they “accepted God as their true savior”.
I left him and I’ve also left organized religion. Catholism isn’t any better in my opinion. I’m not down with the bigotry, hatred and morally lazy people. I believe in choice.
That’s an aspect of Christianity that has always frightened me. People who believe that anything they do will be forgiven seem to have no qualms about sinning. They hurt people, then they go and ask forgiveness from God, but they don’t apologize or make things right with the people they have hurt. Religion as morality really backfires.
Yep, plus the bible teaches man is above his wife so what he says goes. Sounds like a healthy, happy dynamic to me!!!
And there goes a pile of Nashville tourism dollars.
I don’t believe this has anything to to do with Nashville or the ppl that live there.
Wouldn’t it be amazing if more Christians actually tried to be more like Jesus? Jesus was all about love, inclusion, no judgments.
I love Jesus and F— these guys.
“I love Jesus and F— these guys.” That is a freaking beautiful statement!!!!
Have you read any Anne Lamott? This would be something she would say too. She’s very Christian-but the actual kind. Not these hypocritical a-holes.
And where is the across the board condemnation of inaction on climate change? Where is the across the board condemnation of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? You won’t get it because one side of the board has a different view.
Sadly they think gays, feminists and birth control cause things like Hurricane Harvey, not climate change. No point in reasoning with these people IMO. 🙁
It would be pretty funny if my gay little girl could control the elements!!
Why on earth would religious people care about climate change? Remember they think there is an all powerful God watching over everyone. A God who will magically swoop in and fix the earth if things get too bad. So why bother reigning in pollution? Plus if we all die from our over-polluted planet…why we all go to heaven! Which is better than earth! So why do anything? Just pray the day away and don’t lift a finger to actually help any being and then go to paradise.
Religion is a disease.
Jesus.
clever
There are no “self-conceptions”. There are no “lifestyles.” There are only peoples’ children. Please stand with them!!
Stay classy, red America.
American evangelicals are grasping for power in a world that is changing and no longer wants their bile. They are trying to show their friends in the Russian Orthodox and other global hate groups masquerading as “churches” that they can push us all around. Um, nope. Nashville mayor Megan Barry’s response to their odious hatred:
“The @CBMWorg’s so-called “Nashville Statement” is poorly named and does not represent the inclusive values of the city & people of Nashville.”
This does not in any way represent the city of Nashville! I’m so appalled they used our city’s name on this mess.
These people are of no use to anyone at all. I hope God smites every person who had anything to do with this ridiculous statement to spare us from more foolery from them in the future.
At least on Tuesday Mattis said he would study the proposed ban on transgender military serving. Its nice to see push back from our top military leaders on this issue.
The general knows it’s garbage, and my guess is that he will find ways around it.
I agree with you. I hope Mattis sticks around. He’s one of very few people in this administration I have faith in.
Mattis is one of the few presidential appointments that didn’t make me want to tear my hair out, so I hope he lives up to his reputation of intolerance for bullshit.
I can’t believe what i’m reading. How can you applaud a man who under Bush set the ME on fire, who advocates for war at every turn, nicknamed ‘mad dog’, call sign ‘chaos’ which is precisely why he got the job in this administration though Obama wouldn’t have him because he said something non-commital about transgender people rather than disavow it completely?
It is not an accident that we are at MORE war under Trump and this particular general’s hard on is war with Iran.
He is as much a garbage person as the deplorable preacher man.
Don’t let your hatred of trump blind you to the circle of war criminals from the Bush presidency he is surrounding himself with.
It’s as disgusting as watching the ladies of the view coo over Dick Cheney.
I know this may not be a popular opinion, but when you have to spend half your time wringing your hands and trying to explain how this or that particular statement or action doesn’t in any way represent “real Christianity” (or Islam or Judaism or fill in the blank religion) then maybe it’s time to examine the religion itself and ask why and how it seems so constantly to give rise to and be used to justify some of the worst human behaviors in history.
I say that with immense compassion for progressive religious people who don’t want to leave their religious traditions or practices and who still find meaning in them. I used to be that person (and in fact went on to become a professor of religious studies because it was so important to me). I’ve been a much happier atheist for years now because I finally did start asking that hard question. And the conclusion I reached after years of thought and study is that religion itself is inherently the problem.
Please don’t jump all over me. I’m just sharing my thoughts because more than ever it feels like we’re moving backwards when it comes to justice and openness, and religion is driving much of that.
Because shitty people who are filled with fear and insecurity will use any platform to justify it. Religion is simply the most popular, I believe because it’s a great way to not have to actually explain yourself or use logic.
I’m not saying people have to stop practicing their religion, but we will be much better off when we stop giving religion a place in public life. The minute we stop caring about appeasing religions with policy, we will be a much more tolerant, free, and open society. It is, at this point, actively holding us back from progress.
You didn’t say anything offensive. It is a worthwhile subject in these times more than ever.
Religion is something I wrestled with daily for a long time. I couldn’t reconcile it with my values and progressive social views. I am Jewish which is an ethno-religion, therefore, it wasn’t a simple question of not being religious I had to also decide how can I be Jewish without being religious. My synagogue fits my progressive views but questioning is a basic part of Judaism. The concept of complete surrender is not necessary and the focus is on exploring your personal relationship to God. But there is no one concept. For some it is a life force, for others, it is the universe and for others, it is a question mark. All of those are fine because the root belief is God is unknowable and a mystery. We don’t think of it as an outside force that sits in judgment or grants wishes or answers prayers or controls anything.
We have atheists members and welcome them because that is their relationship and choice. They come for social reasons, debate and Jewish traditions and rituals. Now, this is my sect which is a mish mash with some Conservative parts but that is about studying and learning and Reform which is open minded with social activism similar to Unitarianism. I also like that there is no evangelical element involved. So I can feel at peace with this. For me, it works but for others, it doesn’t. I have no issue with that.
So on the other side; My Memere is Catholic as is that entire side of my family. I see good and bad as with any religion, but she walks the walk. She is very kind and loving. Not one racist bone in her body even though she grew up in the south and is in her early 90s. For her it is simple. We are all God’s children. She was born into extreme poverty into an ethnic group that was considered ignorant and strange as Cajuns were discriminated against and shamed for speaking French. The somewhat rare times when she talks about her childhood she always mentions constant hunger. The only people who took pity on them were black people and Creoles of color, and they would bring them food when they didn’t even have much to spare. For her, they were angels on earth sent by Jesus. I don’t believe that but I believe she believes that and it makes her happy and gives her strength.
For some people, it is the only thing that keeps them from jumping off a bridge or holding tight to hope that things can get better. That is why I don’t make fun of people who are religious. Life can take you to some dark places and if going to church or meditating or worshiping nature gets you through then bless you and peace.
People who twist it and weaponize it were never good people. No matter if they believe something or don’t they would have always been miserable and hateful. They just cloak themselves in religion because they can feel righteous while they are hateful. They can justify anything they do.
People like that can be found in any religion and in people who aren’t religious at all.
No jumping from me, only applause. I agree with everything you said and made similar statements on the threads from yesterday.
I don’t think personal belief is the issue, but yes institutionalized religion is extremely, EXTREMELY problematic.
After watching the horrifying docuseries The Keepers, I was reminded about why religion can be so dangerous, so destructive.
One could argue that pedophiles are drawn to any position that grants them unfettered and largely unchecked access to children. But the argument that say, teachers for instance, have as much access to children and can and do molest as often as priests doesn’t hold water. Because when you see the sheer lengths that the Vatican in conjunction with local law enforcement as well as the public turned their backs on these victims well… there really is no comparison.
They were all complicit in a way that I have never seen before and religion was the useful tool that allowed that to happen.
If a teacher gets caught with an underage child, their career is over–even the unions can’t do anything to protect them. But the shield provided by the Church structure has allowed hundreds of thousands of children to be raped and sexually assaulted with no repercussion to the rapist, just a mere shuffling around to another Church or religious school.
Also worth noting that the Vatican is a powerful and wealthy Church, much more so than any school.
@kitten
This is the deepest problem in my view with organized religion. It attracts Narcissists in clusters who prey on innocent vulnerable people.
You live in Boston so you probably know more about the transgressions of the Catholic than a lot of people. I saw the movie Spotlight and a movie about the Magdalene laundries in Ireland that stood out for me. I went on to read about the laundries in terms of feminism because of tragic lives that women deemed loose endured. They were sent simply for being pretty sometimes. Or if they were raped it was their fault and sent to these laundries that were abusive.
It is horrific what the church did to Ireland because it had a stranglehold on government and was too powerful to question.
I agree with everything you said.
Yep, also keep in mind religion has fought against EVERY advance in medicine. Blood transfusions? Churches were against it. Organ donation? It’s playing god and churches condemned the research. Etc, etc, etc,
One thing I’ve always found ‘funny’ is how the religious are so quick to criticize any medical scientific research, and disagree with findings of said medical research (well and any and most scientific research), and always say the sick should pray….and yet they always go to the doctor themselves when critically ill, don’t they?
They jailed the man who said the Earth wasn’t flat and didn’t apologize until the 90’s!!!! Religion absolutely fights any and all societal progress. The sooner it goes extinct, the better off we will all be.
“Yep, also keep in mind religion has fought against EVERY advance in medicine.”
Very important point.
A recent example is the advancements in “gene editing” which was barred in the US, while the UK wisely moves forward with this potentially life-saving and life-CHANGING research.
“And, when asked about the possibility of using human embryos in the development of gene-editing techniques, a majority of adults – and two-thirds of those with high religious commitment– say this would make gene editing less acceptable to them.”
http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/07/26/u-s-public-opinion-on-the-future-use-of-gene-editing/
Your comment made me think about this 2015 article about a former member of the Westboro Baptist Church: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/23/conversion-via-twitter-westboro-baptist-church-megan-phelps-roper It’s long but worth the read. It helped me understand how religious conviction can drive such scary hateful beliefs. It’s truly stunning how powerful religion can be. It’s cool how exposure to “others” (largely via twitter) helped the woman in the article break from that hateful belief system.
Your thoughts are my thoughts, and this is the reason that I too became an atheist. I have been happier because of it. When I was still religious, I never thought I would be, but in the years since, I’ve had some thoughts and realized that the reason I clung so tightly to my faith was because I was being sentimental about it. I still am, in a lot of ways, because it’s something I grew up with and am surrounded by even today. It’s hard to let go of things like that, but the truth is, that I have been happier as a result.
You are right that we have to question the tenets of our faith as opposed to saying that the people who behave in reprehensible ways are not real representatives of that faith. I’m so much more interested in asking why they would say what they say, and what is it in their doctrine that allows them to come to such conclusions.
Religion, both institutional and personal, is such a good way to study humanity and how and why humans behave in the ways they behave. And my conclusion, as an atheist, is that there’s a lot less to do with god or salvation than even most of them would realize. And that’s been very interesting to me.
There is definitely a psychological aspect to what religious people choose or don’t or reject or believe. It can tell you a lot about a person and what they value in life.
I have always found it fascinating that people with severe psychological disorders retreat into religious symbolism and archetypes even if they didn’t grow up religious.
There often exists a huge chasm between organized religion and spirituality.
From a very early age, I saw no need for any middleMen standing in the way or translating between my soul and the universal One. (Not talking about true teachers here; teachers and genuine guides, I love any day, all day.)
I hopped – red rover, red rover – over to spirituality… and have since approached glimpses; brushes with the peace & wisdom that religion only peddled & packaged.
It is a process, not a product.
Nothing you say here is traitorous. Only truthful.
I thought the Muslims are supposed to be the scary ones.(sarc) smdh
Any religion, when radicalized, becomes scary.
Absolutely. Ask these guys, and they would spout all the hateful bigoted anti-Islam rhetoric for days. But they are ok. Just fine.
This sort of hate is out of the shadows now. I don’t know if that is good or bad.
Yes, see American Taliban How war, sex, sin, and power bind jihadists and the radical right by Markos Moulitsas
I find it very interesting that many people seem to know exactly what God wants, and how what God wants always coincidentally lines up precisely with what they want. Funny how that works.
Supply Side Jesus
http://www.beliefnet.com/news/2003/09/the-gospel-of-supply-side-jesus.aspx
How many of those men are closeted? Half, or more?
I bet most of them. And pence too
Where are our home grown terrorists being radicalized?! In the evangelical church. #WhereWereTheyRadicalized
I would say a good number of these men are closeted or frequent prostitutes. Isn’t that the way these things usually turn out? If someone is so obsessed with someone else’s sex life to the point of making a huge deal out of it, that says something. Perhaps they protest too much?!?!
A married pastor in my hometown was literally caught by police in the church van, actively engaging with a young male. Another ended up announcing to his congregation that he was gay. Both pastored evangelical churches that often won’t perform a wedding for a divorced person. Seriously.
Why all the judgment about what people do in their personal relationships is beyond me. We need to help one another through life, not judge and condemn.
Yes-there’s a huge non denominational Christian church where we live-I have a few friends who belong. And a few months ago the head pastor was arrested for child molestation of one of his foster children.
Disgraceful. These irrelevant fuks are just trying to stay relevant, but they don’t get it. Their fire and brimstone, hate-filled BS is only going turn more and more of the younger generations away from their so-called churches. MSN, please stop giving them attention.
correction: MSM (mainstream media), please stop giving them attention.
These good ole white Christian men not only signed it hate on LGBGT community but its also another way of suppressing women. They want to put their women in the corner and this is just another reminder of their place in church, home and society. They don’t like their women are gaining more freedom and some members are rebelling against their hardline on “roles”. These type of Evangelicals are bent on everyone having their place and no one had better step out of their role.
Your “list of things requiring condemnation” didn’t even include the full-frontal bigoted attacks on the Muslim and Mexican communities by the “president” and his policies. Sheriff Arpaio pardon and the travel ban, anyone? It’s hard to keep up TBH
I’m so sick of these hypocrites who scapegoat LGBT people.
They cherry pick scripture to find ways to blame other people and cast them as sinners rather than making any sacrifices themselves.
I would be willing to give them a shred of leeway if they had any skin in the game, but they don’t.
They don’t discriminate against divorced people who remarried, people who work on Sunday, people who covet their neighbors’ material items, or people who take the Lord’s name in vain. All of these things are in the 10 commandments. They are front and center. They are not some obscure passage from the Old Testament.
If they’re so concerned about the Old Testament, they could ban shellfish. No more shrimp cocktail! But even that sacrifice is too great. No, they are content to just blame and disparage other people and cherry pick the parts of the Bible that don’t require them to give up anything.
Every so often, I rewatch that scene from West Wing where President Bartlet destroys the right winger. It is on YouTube under West Wing – Bartlet & the Bible
****
“I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?
My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?
Here’s one that’s really important cause we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
Think about those questions, would you?
Thank you. You reminded me of why I often liked West Wing so much… even as I heard the keyboard clacking away.
Wanna ruin an evangelicals day? God isnt real. Theres no big guy in the sky watching everyone. We are no better than animals. Jesus was just a man. The bible is just a book written by regular guys. When you die that’s it. You’re just worm food in the ground. How big headed of us to think we are more special that animals, insects & plants. And your church is just a building full of fools looking for meaning where there is none.
I dont care if u believe in god, allah, aliens, whatever….but how dare anyone use them as an excuse to judge another. Look in the damn mirror before you point fingers.
I agree. Hubris, narcissism and malignant beliefs all wrapped in the name of religion served with a heaping side of hate.
I don’t understand what leads a person to this thinking. I don’t live it, so I don’t think I ever will.
Don’t you think it’s fear though? It’s easier to think if you believe X that means you have eternal life. Or that Someone Else (God) is “in charge” so that makes sense of everything. And for people who grow up with it, they’re kind of brainwashed too.
…or tell them you don’t believe in the creation story or some of the other big tales in the Old Testament, especially if you are another Christian. You can see the smoke coming out of their ears.
Great post. I specifically like the list of all the heinous things these bitches have no comment about. Sorry (not sorry), but these bitches are going straight to hell.
In response, consider donating to The Montrose Center of Houston’s Hurricane Harvey LGBTQ Disaster Relief Fund.
You said it best, Kaiser. That list of what they *didn’t* address makes this so much worse — and it was already pretty bad. Some spiritual leaders they are.
Beyond disgusted at this point. I had to get off Facebook due to crazy relatives who are Evangelicals and every time they put something praising him up my blood pressure would skyrocket. My family are originally New England liberals but I married a man from the Midwest. I can’t believe how Trump (and the Republicans) have convinced these people to vote, again and again, against their best interest. We need to ban Fox News and make churches pay taxes.
Watching from Europe, it looks like a lot of powerful people(and
sadly the WH is full of them) in the US are trying to yank the country backwards. Refusing the power of progress, women rights, gay rights, equality, all of the good things its society had going for it. Makes me fear that this will spread, and how much worse it will get.
Fact fundamentalist evangelicalism should be dead, but its a undead rotting corpse that despite being shot 30 times, stabbed, run over by a truck, set and fire an thrown into a ravine. It keeps rising up to kill again.
Those undead hell monsters can suffer a fate worse than death, irrelevancy. That is where they are heading
Evangelicals are just stressed out over the fact even with Trump in the WH, they will never be at the top of the cultural food chain anymore. Society is moving on from their primitive biblical worldview, particularity the young adults who more and more want nothing to do with any organized religion.
Good example is the WAR ON CHRISTMAS, then crying how stores no longer say merry Christmas but happy holidays, its because they are irrelevant. They are no longer the majority religion and stores want to sell as much crap during the holidays to as much people as possible not just their aging and shrinking demographic.
LGTBQ acceptance is just more of their “biblical values” becoming irrelevant to our society, we live in an age where you need STEM education to get good jobs, that means having a science education where the earth is not a mere 6000 years old.
Want to see their future, go look at PIne Ridge Reservation, Standing Rock, First nations in Canada and the Aboriginal Communities in Australia. A future of isolation and abject poverty awaits them.
Fuck these clowns.