I will keep saying this: I want Rose McGowan to find peace. I want her to heal, and to find a good therapist, and to live a full life. I want her to be successful and happy. I want her to work and find joy. I don’t think she’s had much fulfillment or peace or joy in weeks or months or years. Rose has been promoting her book, Brave, and her new E! series, Citizen Rose, for a few weeks. The promotion has not gone well. For many people, I suspect, it is uncomfortable to watch her in interviews or on her show, because it feels like she’s disintegrating mentally and emotionally before our eyes. Harvey Weinstein spent twenty f–king years gaslighting her publicly and privately after he raped her. He destroyed her career, he had her followed by Mossad agents, he paid people to keep tabs on her all this time. Most of us would barely be hanging on by a thread as well. And so it feels like everything has caught up to her, all of those years of no one listening, no one believing, and now they’re listening to every word she says and it’s all too much.
Last week, Rose was doing a Q&A session when a transgender activist started disrupting her session. Rose has said problematic sh-t about transgender women, just as she’s said problematic sh-t about race and everything else. This is what happened early in Rose’s appearance at Barnes & Noble:
A woman shot up from her seat to confront McGowan about comments made on RuPaul’s “What’s the Tee?” podcast in July 2017, which recently resurfaced on social media. The mood took a sharp turn.
“I have a suggestion. Talk about what you said on RuPaul. Trans women are dying and you said that we, as trans women, are not like regular women. We get raped more often. We go through domestic violence more often. There was a trans woman killed here a few blocks [away]. I have been followed home –.” The woman was then interrupted by Rose.
“Hold on. So am I. We are the same. My point was, we are the same. There’s an entire show called ID channel, a network, dedicated to women getting abused, murdered, sexualized, violated, and you’re a part of that, too, sister. It’s the same,” McGowan retorted.
“You do nothing for them. Trans women are in men’s prisons. And what have you done for them?” she asked.
“What have you done for women?” McGowan said. It then turned into a shouting match, with McGowan demanding the interrupter sit down as her voice broke. She proceeded to yell at the woman as she was carted off by Barnes & Noble security, chanting “white cis feminism.” McGowan, as the woman was carted off, launched into a passionate tirade, shouting into the microphone:
“Don’t label me, sister. Don’t put your labels on me. Don’t you f—ing do that. Do not put your labels on me. I don’t come from your planet. Leave me alone. I do not subscribe to your rules. I do not subscribe to your language. You will not put labels on me or anybody. Step the f— back. What I do for the f—ing world and you should be f—ing grateful. Shut the f— up. Get off my back. What have you done? I know what I’ve done, God dammit.”
The crowd didn’t quite know what to do and began to console the actress and activist with outbursts of “We love you, Rose” and cheering.
“I’m not crying, I’m f—ing mad with the lies. I’m mad that you put s— on me because I have a f—ing vagina and I’m white or I’m black or I’m yellow or I’m purple. F— off. All of us want to say it. I just do. And you can label this thing as a breakdown. That, motherf—ers, is a breakdown. Maybe not for me, but for you. I might have information you want. I might know s— that you don’t. So f—ing shut up. Please systemically. For once. In the world. You know what I’m talking about. Just tell the God damned truth. Stop boxing everybody into s—. I didn’t agree to your cis f—ing world. Ok? F— off.”
Hours later, Rose did a Q&A session with Ronan Farrow in which she suggested – or said outright – that the activist was just someone Harvey Weinstein paid to disrupt the discussion. On Friday, Rose went on Twitter and announced that she was canceling all of her appearances to promote her book and show.
I am canceling upcoming public appearances because I have given enough. I have given beauty, in return I was VERBALLY ASSAULTED for two full minutes @BNBuzz by an actor paid to verbally assault a woman who has been terrorized by your system. And no ONE in that room did anything
— rose mcgowan (@rosemcgowan) February 2, 2018
And everyone from my publicists, t assistants, managers and every person sitting in their chairs frozen by their weakness, a weakness called COMPLICITY. The truth is you all failed me. Again. And again. And again.
— rose mcgowan (@rosemcgowan) February 2, 2018
I would like an apology from the manager of the Union Square @BNUnionSquareNY and all security people, and the audience, who did nothing and let the paid verbal assault of an assaulted woman happen. Cool?
— rose mcgowan (@rosemcgowan) February 2, 2018
She also accuses Variety of being the “mouthpiece” for Weinstein, and says that’s why they got their hands on the transcript… only I’m pretty sure they probably just had a freelance reporter there, or they were going off of one of the many videos from the incident?
Also: the transgender woman has come forward to tell her side of the story: her name is Andi Dier, and she spoke to the Daily Beast about how she’s not a Weinstein plant and why she believes Rose is transphobic. While I think Rose definitely needs to rethink how she speaks about transgender people… this whole incident just feels so uncomfortable, like a sideshow spectacle instead of a substantive discussion about intersectionality of race, women’s rights and trans rights. Sigh…
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I agree with everything you said. I feel so much for her, all that she has endured and it’s taken such a toll on her. I want her to get help and heal. 🙁
My mom doesn’t follow any celebrity news, but she mentioned to me she is worried about Rose. Her struggle is heartbreaking.
I have expressed both my support and concern for Rose in this forum . This was an ugly exchange but IMO this trans activist was looking for attention at Roses known fragile expense
There are a myriad of issues affecting women the particular issue Rose (a victim of abuse ) was addressing is systematic sexual abuse and silencing of women especially in the workplace .this has nothing to do with which prisons trans women should go to though that is also an important issue
Breast cancer is killer of women , so is heart disease should people now show up at breast cancer marathons screaming what about heart disease ?
Also on Twitter several young women have come forward to say that Andi Deer “sexually harassed and abused them when they were teens and this ” activist” social media and is full of troublesome and misogynist comments including normalizing rape so there’s that
Thank you for writing this. When I first read about this encounter my first thought was “really? Why did she (Andi) do this? Of course it is important but why did she do this at an equally important event?”
Of course, now I know of her name/existence so maybe that was the point. Publicity. I’m not saying she just wants publicity for herself, but she got publicity for her cause….at Rose’s expense.
Whether or not that was justified I don’t know. I don’t know what Rose has said about transgender people. So maybe someone does need to challenge Rose on that issue. But there is a time and place for everything and I don’t think this confrontation was constructive.
I’m not a fan of Rose and have always thought she was kind of an asshole. However, knowing about the abuse she has suffered makes me view her behavior in a different way. I still think she is problamatic but I understand her better. I hope she has someone who can help her gain clarity and seek therapy. She has an important message which is getting lost in her anger.
I also think, it is not fair to “detract” from any one issue in favor of another– its the classic “whataboutism” and doing this, you just hopscotch form one thing to another superficially and never get any depth. Its rude and not fair for anyone to go to someone else’s party and make it all about themselves.
This. Andi Deer wanted to hijack a discussion that wasn’t about her issue. And Rose McGowan is under no obligation to take on another person’s crusade. That being said, it is obvious that Rose is very fragile right now and wrapped up in her own pain – to the point of not being able to differentiate between the audience not knowing how to handle an awkward situation and the audience being “complicate”. I hope she finds help and peace.
I find it very strange that someone would just shout at you for not having done something for a specific issue. There are millions of issues in the world, and I would not go up to random people in the street and get angry at them for not caring about the issues I particularly care about.
I don’t believe this activist had pure intentions.
“Crusade”? “Specific issue”?
Are we not fighting for the same things? Andi and Rose are both focused on the issue of sexual assault in their communities–not separate issues at all, really.
And this is the problem with white feminism: the utter lack of inclusivity.
@Kitten – I think any credibility Andi Dier or anyone has to speak on the issue of sexual assault is instantly shot by the discovery that they themselves have engaged in sexual assault/abuse. And the allegations go back as far as seven years.
Rose may be unstable and an asshole but she’s not a rapist, and trans or no, no rapist has any business daring to speak about sexual assault – and that too, speaking over a survivor. We don’t owe Dier a platform any more than we do Cosby or Weinstein or Spacey or any other disgusting men who’ve been exposed over the last four months.
@kitten – Why should Rose McGowan be fighting for trans rights? She is talking about the normalisation of sexual assault and violence against women. Surely under trans ideology that includes them?
Andi Dier is a serial sexual abuser who has admitted that she has a penchant for 12- 13 yo girls. She is also a proponent of rape fantasies. SHE is the problem that Rose McGowan is talking about.
What is “trans rights”? The right to not be assaulted because of your anatomy isn’t separate from the issue behind the #metoo movement, so why would Rose make it seem like it isn’t something for her to be concerned with?
And McGowan worked with a known serial predator and even felt the need to defend him. But she’s your perfect spokesperson for sexual assault?
@Kitten – no matter how imperfect Rose is (I’m not a fan of how she’s handling this either, and she’s wrong for the Victor Salva issue), she, as a sexual assault survivor, is still better qualified to speak about the issue of rape and abuse than a known rapist and sexual predator.
I can’t believe I even had to type that last sentence.
Same, I think Kaiser got it all right and I agree with everything she said. This whole situation is so, so sad to watch play out and I hope Rose somehow finds peace — however unlikely that looks right now.
I also agree with the other commenters who said this was not the time or the place for this woman to speak up. Rose has taken on enough, IMO.
I’m not even a fan of hers, but I admire her activism in this area, and her unwillingness to back down from Harvey no matter what BS he throws at her.
She needs nurturing and help.
She really does, I hope she has someone in her life to advise her to step back from publicity until she heals, once healed she can then be an effective voice. But right now she is engaging in grief prolonging behaviour, lashing out in anger.
She needs support, but most of she needs to *know* she has it. She’s been (feeling) alone in this struggle for so long it’s like she doesn’t know whom to trust.
I mean who would have believed Harvey Weinstein thought he was (evil) James Bond with his crazy surveillance and sh*t? No one. Now we have the receipts we’ve got a glimpse into Rose’s sad sad world.
For her I wish, peace.
Yup, i agree and i feel the same. I want her to find peace.
What happened to Rose and the 20 year ordeal that followed is awful. She has every right to her anger But I can’t stand this woman. Period. She doesn’t seem to care about anyone but herself. She has tried to make the entire “Me Too” movement about herself. Her “Rose Army” for example. She has erased WOC in the narrative and she is transphobic. She is the epitome of white feminism in this narrative. Is she a victim? Absolutely. Does she deserve to heard? Yes. But one can be a victim of assault and still be an *sshole.
This exactly.
Agree! What happened to her is awful. However, she does not get a pass to treat the transgender community like sh*t or a pass to tweet racist sh*t. She isn’t the only person in the world that has been harmed and is hurting.
What abput the people harmed by Andi? What about the women claiming Andi sexually assaulted them?
Rose has made transphobic comments before this incident.
I agree. I don’t like Rose, but I do feel for her traumatic and lengthy ordeal. Thing is , her attitude is currently so self righteous, so angry at virtually *everyone,*and all too eager to call others out for dishonesty and complicity, that I don’t think she is winning herself nearly as many supporters as she could. If anything, her “I suffer the most” attitude is warding people off, even women who would be more likely to add their voices and presences to hers, to help her out. I do realize that the terrible prolonged stress Rose has been under has psychologically taken its toll on her, and she appears to be deeply disturbed b/c of this. Certainly, I am not anyone to put down her behavior or to say she has no right to her enormous anger, or to her expression of it. It’s just that her ego, it seems, is truly getting in the way of her capacity to speak up for other survivors of rape, harassment, and abuse, to be any kind of “leader” (as she calls herself) in the women’s anti sexual abuse movement. She calls herself brave, and she may be, but all I have heard from her are criticisms of OTHER women, who kept complicit silence about Weinstein, who were too cowardly to call him out. But the fact is, she herself kept scared and silent for 20 years, and even continued, after he raped her, to work with Weinstein. (She stood up, as well, for a known child molester, worked w him w no problem even knowing what he was, and I can and do criticize her for that one.) So all this “other women in Hollywood are so phony, standing up with me now, b/c their silence was complicit to all Weinstein’s abuse” is a little bit ironic, when for years she essentially did the same thing. And she does behave as though her suffering is somehow greater and more important than sexual abuse suffered by anyone else, lashing out at different woman, placing blame on them for doing nothing to help other women—when, quite frankly, in her own fear, she let two decades pass before she stepped up to help corner the wolf (and wolves) that everyone, Rose included, had known all the time lurked among them.
Agreed.
Yep. She’s transphobic, racist and her ego is out of control. I want all the victims to find some peace. But I’m not down with her centering the entire movement around herself. She also likes to dismiss women of color as well
You said it all so succinctly, Nicole. I wish I had that gift, lol. Agree with you completely
Not one for extra words lol
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
Some victims who have been victimized over and over again from childhood and have had mental issues and substance abuse problems can be difficult to digest. Her mental health is rarely talked about, but she does have mental health problems are of a serious nature. Someone said they think she isn’t taking her medications correctly not too long ago. I believe she used to hurt herself when she was younger.
Her drug problems are/were pretty hardcore.
I take that into account when she goes off like this.
Yes, this absolutely! Rose viewed without context is a very incomplete picture.
BTW, I really enjoy and usually agree with your comments on things. Thanks for your thoughtful, level-headed approach to “this thing called life” **.
**Prince on the mind : )
I get Sinead O’Connor vibes from her. It seems like abuse coupled with humiliation and denial really messes people up mentally. It’s like telling someone I’m gonna hurt you mentally and physically and you can’t tell anyone or I will make you into a liar and freak. I think that is the worst, delaying healing until it’s almost too late. Damn, I hate to see someone suffering like this. People who do these things to others are gonna bust Hell wide open when they get there.
Same to you Tulip. 🙂
I try to find connections to other people’s stories and lives so I can try to understand them. I have a hard time picking apart anyone who has been victimized in such a prolonged harsh manner. I also can’t do it with someone with mental health issues or physical limitations. Within reason of course. Perhaps it is a result of hurting inside before and not knowing how to make the pain stop. It is a lonely place to be.
Rose is what happens when it doesn’t let up, and there is no relief. It looks like this. Messy and hard to watch. Most people are a mess in private but hers is on display, and it is uncomfortable.
@PhatGirl
Yes, Sinead. I see that, and there IS a similarity to their behavior. Her video when she was crying in the hotel recently was challenging to watch. Heartbreaking.
Rose has experienced a lot of trauma over the years and I hope she is able to find peace and heal. But as others have said she is distracting the movement every time she lashes out like this, and she keeps saying problematic stuff. I want to root for her, but sometimes she makes it difficult.
I saw her conversation on the Daily Show last week, and she does come off as arrogant, but also as simply unwell, so it could be a coping mechanism. She maybe should back away a bit and focus on self-care.
Don’t think it’s that simple. She is stuck in her narrative and she can’t see all the support and all the good people who wanna help or share their experiences. In a way, she blames other women for what happened to her.
Yes, she does try to steal me too movement often. But what will many women not tell you is that being born man and changing sex is an option. It’s the lack of understanding among transgender women and the rest of the world. Also, there are many heartbreaking stories from familes of transgender women, who have kids and ex wives and their lives were at stake. It’s still confusing. It’s not something you wanna hear, but yes, transphobia is real and based on fear
This exactly! I cannot imagine the suffering she has gone through and its toll on her mental health but she is has a history of being problematic about trans women & race, which is part of a larger issue of the lack of inclusivity in movements such as these.
I hope Rose is able to find a group of people she sincerely trusts to surround herself with.
I don’t think the transwoman was in the right, but neither was Rose. Rose attempted to silence a transwoman in the exact same way people have attempted to silence her [Rose]. This a PRIME example of simultaneous intersecting privilege and marginalization at work.
Rose has been on a “you can’t tell me sh!t” kick for a while now. Previously, her anger seemed cathartic and freeing, but now it seems to be laced with arrogance. It’s rather offputting. It reminds me of the Tyra “we were all rooting for you” moment.
HH
Agree all the way.
Also, feel Andi was seeking attention. Exploiting a situation with a person in an extremely fragile mental state. Everything about it was reckless. Disagree? Sure. Drop a line. Tweet her. Write an open letter. How she did this? FFS Andi.
Why does Andi owe Rose anything? If you’re speaking on a public stage about a highly sensitive topic, you have to expect some to disagreement and without consideration to being sensitive in calling you out, publicly. She’s no different from others, including Rose, who just want their voices and concerns heard. If Rose can’t handle criticism in such a public forum and punishes others for her fragile self, then who’s the “weak” one here? Her attitude is similar to Trump, who also can’t handle people calling him out on his BS. Both need to grow up if you ask me.
Marley
No one “owes”anyone anything, but I’ll argue for common decency. And to not exploit a public breakdown of a person that is getting attention because of Amanda bines level behavior.
As stated her phrasing is problematic and only someone that is an opportunist at the expense of another would use this to gain attention. Rose is unhinged. Her phrasing is awful. And anyone with a brain can see this. She holds no position of power or influence (unlike Trump since you wanted to draw comparisons.) And we are only hearing of this because someone chose to speak up off topic to a person struggling very openly with substance abuse, decades of paranoia, depression, stalking, threats to her life, damaged career, and a violent sexual assault.
And has valid points. I’m not saying anything countering that. I am saying they are an opportunist. Choosing a person to antagonize that is already hanging on by a thread. There are loads of other actors they could have seen on yours and raised concerns with. Rose is low tier. Security is easier. And management is lessened. Her remarks would be engaged. And is an opportunist. Rose is a train wreck. It was easy prey. I won’t defend that.
Comment 25. Cait said it well. I’ll leave it there.
@Marley – it takes a special level of delusion and self-importance for a rapist to disrupt a rape victim’s chance to speak of her experience, so in this case, despite her other flaws, Rose really did not owe Andi Dier anything, and Andi deserves nothing more than a stint in jail.
Andi Dier is a known heckler, harasser, and just an all around trash person. Rose McGowan can be troubling in her views but she didn’t deserve that.
She’s been accused of sexual assault
If you have been accused of sexual assault what gives you the right to critize anyone??
I don’t really see how starting a shouting match with Rose at an event like this was a good idea? She is clearly struggling with some severe challenges so this just comes off as a mean-spirited stunt. Asking Rose to clarify her statements about trans-women would have been a great way to start a larger discussion and conversation, but this was just un-productive and mean.
I agree. It does seem like a stunt. Also, I just don’t understand why this particular celebrity is being targeted. Here is someone who has taken action from which all women can potentially gain empowerment, yet she is the one you attack, rather than, let’s say far more powerful figures in the entertainment industry, like Dave Chappelle, who has said some truly and horribly transphobic things.
That is my beef as well. The biggest threat to ALL women including transgender women is MEN, they are the ones killing us and raping us and beating us and they are the ones that need to be held accountable which is what I loved initially about the #metoo movement
But I notice a insidious tend in some quarters to change the narrative and blame and attack women for the vile and violent actions of men , IMO this is the ultimate form of patriarchy and misogyny and I am not here for it
She was targeted because of her transphobic comments. I don’t agree with the approach but please please think before you ask a marginalized group to sacrifice and stay quiet for the good of everyone else. I guarantee they’ve already spent years holding their tongues for the sake of making everyone but themselves comfortable.
It feels like once again women are the target and must answer for all of the shit in this world, sigh.
i know rose can be problematic, but to shout at her during this event was awful. you cannot place all the power and responsibility on one woman saying she doesn’t do enough for trans women, that is a low blow and nasty. that heckler, also an alleged sex offender, didn’t want to engage in dialogue she just wanted to shout abuse. that is not helpful. this is a sad situation.
I got so angry reading about that incident. Rose is not the person you scream at “What have you done for us?” WTF? She can’t be everything for everyone. What has she done for trans people? Maybe nothing. Maybe she is transphobic, I honestly can’t tell. But to put that on her? Come on. How does it help you to publicly attack a woman who’s been nothing but attacked for 20 years?
And this quote: “And I feel personally that maybe she has a traumatic response because she really does see us as men.” Girl, that’s a LOT of unfair speculation.
THIS!
Sorry, but you can’t expect someone to be an activist for everyone. Has she done something for WOC or trans women? Maybe not. But as long as she is not doing something TO them, she also does not owe it to anyone to do something FOR them. Frankly she needs to be focusing on her own healing.
Now don’t get me wrong, I think in general white cis women need to get their act together and show up for women who are not like them, instead of, like, voting for Trump or Roy Moore.
But you can’t put it on one person who is just trying to deal with her own crisis.
Okay, yes. You can’t expect someone to be an activist for everyone, but that doesn’t mean they have to go out of there way to be openly transphobic. Rose went on RuPaul’s podcast and suggested that trans women are not actually woman and said that the experience of a cis woman is no different than that of a trans women, when trans women are often murdered for being trans. This was not a random and baseless accusation, there is context. Plus it actually, truly endangers people’s lives to hold these views, so it’s not asking the world of Rose not to be transphobic. It’s basic human decency.
AGREED enough of this bs narrative that you have to perfectly represent everyone’s needs/issues/feelings all the damn time that is impossible and counterproductive.
I don’t know how transphobic Rose actually is, but maybe what she meant is that the experience can’t be the same.
Trans women are definitely attacked and murdered, and they are of course women, but the dynamics involved don’t follow the same kind of pattern.
I follow a trans woman on Youtube and a few weeks ago she was talking about her surprise when she heard that a female friend was very proud because she confronted a harasser who had touched her at the bus.
She (the trans woman) said she was shocked that it was even a thing, because she had grown up as a male, and had been taught to push, kick, and basically have a fight whenever it was needed.
And so, whenever somebody touched her inappropriately, she reacted with a punch.
In that sense, there is a difference. Not in identity, but in how we may have been raised.
She doesnt owe anyone anything and yet she thinks people owe HER something. Calling other women and victims out on Twitter for not speaking out about what happened to HER is a great example. Her singling out Meryl Streep for “not speaking up” is a prime example. Rose always has to be the MOST victimized person. She has said some really crappy things in relation to trans women (she said on a podcast that they are “not real women”) and has said really crappy things about WOC. Rose doesn’t care about anyone but Rose.
@ shambles who said “Plus it actually, truly endangers people’s lives to hold these view”
I am not necessarily a fan of Rose but I support and empathize with her as a victim, I just have to say Roses or any other woman’s view on transgender issues no matter how backward or ill informed is not what is endangering transwomen lives . People really need to stop with this narrative it is patriarchal and misogynistic attempt to yet again lay all the ills of the world at the feet of women
The biggest threat to ALL women including transgender women is MEN, they are the ones killing us and raping us and beating us and they are the ones to be accountable.
Last year in the USA , I believe approximately 1650 women died at the hands of men . Roughly 25 of those were transwomen, if women’s ” view points ” endangered the lives of those 25 transwomen pray tell what view point contributed to the death of the other 1625 women?
Bottom line it is MEN who are endangering women’s lives full stop .Not women and their views regardless of how backwards they may be.
Censored,
Nope. Any person, regardless of gender, who harbors and expresses transphobic views is contributing to the stigma around transgender people and therefore endangering trans people’s lives. Anyone who says that trans women are not actually women is contributing to the dangerous “trans women are men” idea, which is what causes men to kill trans women in a rage either when they discover that they are trans or when they’re overtaken by fear and self-loathing after having had sexual contact with a trans person.
@. Shambles
Actually Nope to you , over the years women have been increasingly supporting and accepting of transwomen , yet the murders of i tranwomen and women in general has not abated( in some places it has increased)
if everywoman in the world was to accept tranwomen as women and men did not then how would that change men’s actions ?. Do you really think that the men murdering transwomen care or motivated to do so by what women think ? Or what thier male peers may think or say ? Why is women increasing acceptance of tranwomen therfore not being reflected in the murder statistics ??
Your narrative is rooted in misogyny because ” pick me ” transwomen and others don’t want to stand up to men and hold them accountable so they rather bully and blame women . Blaming women for the vile and violent actions of men is patriarchy at its finest.
Instead of shouting how about sitting down with someone and allow them to clarify. If someone is wrong, then you correct them and start talking.
People need to start focusing on the perps and predators and not other women who have never committed violence against a group. It isn’t productive.
Rose never claimed to be the pied piper of every woman. She never claimed to be a great benevolent person either. She came out as a rape victim and helped take down a monster. That is it.
Transgender is just now being approached and talked about thoughtfully and with compassion. It is a new dialog, and not everyone understands it.
Cis women and trans women aren’t the same. The same gender yes but our experiences with our bodies and our struggles in childhood are very different. But to me, that is like me saying an Italian woman and a Japanese woman aren’t the same because they were raised in different cultures. Feelings about fertility and motherhood would be different and our relationships with our bodies are different.
I fail to see the problem there. We discuss this openly in the spirit of sharing in my feminist group. Trans is an expansion of the gender but only recently included in feminism and accepted as part of the group.
@censored @magnoliarose agreed.
Trans rights ARE important but this is not the place to scream about them and what annoys me about the whole trans discourse in a nutshell.
YES exactly! This was a blatant attempt to get publicity on the back of a traumatized woman. I am sorry but if this how that person goes about advocating for their specific issues I want none of it.
You can’t get anywhere by climbing over people who are just as opressed as you are. And in this case Rose is a fellow victim.
i concur
Yes, that.
The activist knew that she could get a meltdown or a blunder from Rose and went for it to promote her own agenda, that is very nasty.
Andi Dier has been accused of sexual assault by several women on Twitter. I don’t like Rose, I think she’s transphobic, hypocritical, has issues with intersectional feminism etc. but I also feel uncomfortable about someone who’s accused of sexual assault shouting down a rape victim talking about her experience.
Well, since it seems like Andi was desperate for some attention, I hope this incident brings awareness to her own behaviour.
amen.
Thank you for the information.
It makes this whole thing worse. Andi just went there to trigger and person barely hanging on.
That’s really troubling.
“I have given beauty”? Oh sit down, Rose. I’m sorry, but as much as I believe her and wish people had believed her 20 years ago, she is really not good at this. She is still dealing with her own shit, and it’s not really helpful to others. I’m glad she’s named names and I want her to be well, but there are many far better voices on this subject.
And trying to say the trans woman.was a plant? Really? Cause of course she couldn’t just have issues with your transphobic statement. Narcissistic, much?
Andi is a known sexual predator who went to Rose’s book signing to make it all about herself. Please, don’t be fooled. You wanna talk about trans issues, talk about it when it’s the right time and place. Not at a book signing of a sexually abused survivor, not while screaming at her like you own the place and not listening when she tries to answer or diffuse the situation. Not while being yourself a sexual predator. Excuse me, but this Andi person had no right and won’t get any sympathy from me or anyone who cares enough to look up who she really is.
Rose clearly has issues of her own, but what Andi did was clearly uncalled for, and I’m glad that,if anything, it allowed her victims to speak up and expose her.
I’m glad she cancelled her tour and she is indeed not very good at this.
Rose has made her own contribution-she helped to get the movement off the ground and open the door for other victims to come forward-but she needs to step aside now. Her emotional health is being tested in a very public way that she obviously can’t handle.
I think this Andi woman’s message was poorly-timed and perhaps not expressed in the most productive way, but Rose’s response was very bizarre IMO. She continually reacts like a trapped animal every time she gets called out on her problematic feminism and is simply not helpful to the larger discussion of intersectionality.
So no, Rose doesn’t have an obligation to be everything to everyone in terms of her activism but I do think it’s time for her to step away from the podium and allow women who are better spokespeople for the movement to take over from this point on. She should really focus on self-care right now.
Rose has significant mental health issues, and it has been said she isn’t taking her medication. There is a marked difference in her demeanor when she is taking care of herself.
I saw the video and I don’t understand why everyone says she is crazy or has mental health problems or whatever. She seems fine to me, in fact AMAZING. That video is the first time I saw her in motion and speaking and she looks lucid and stable, of course she was angry but that’s understandable when that woman started yelling at her.
Transphobia is never okay. Was it the right time and place to call her on it? Probably not. But transphobia is still inexcusable. I truly feel a lot for Rose, but she seems stuck in a place where she cannot heal unless she is the MOST victimized of all the victims and everyone acknowledges it. It’s manifesting as transphobia and it’s not okay. I hope she finds healthier ways to heal and reclaim her power. She is unwell and I hope she gets help. Her tweets are coming off like crisis-level Amanda Bynes and I truly do hope she finds peace, but I also think we can acknowledge that Rose has been through hell AND the fact that she’s a pretty sh!tty advocate for anyone other than herself.
Everyone should read this interview with the trans woman that confronted Rose. Not out of hate for Rose, but because this woman offers a lot of much-needed perspective on what it’s like to live as a transgender person. It’s not often we get the gift of someone sitting down to tell us exactly why it’s hard as hell and sometimes life-threatening to be them. I feel for this woman just as much as I do Rose. Like I said, there is no excuse for transphobia. Transphobia gets people killed.
This is the interview:
https://www.them.us/story/rose-mcgowan-broke-down-in-a-transphobic-rage-last-night
I will read this for sure. But I still think that the one issue has nothing to with the other when it comes to Rose.
She was raped and wrote a book about it and is currently actively fighting the system for ALL women. That includes Trans women too. I don’t see why she is expected to specifically adress Trans issues when she is talking about her own victimization.
Context is key. Andi did not just come to Rose’s book signing to heckle her about trans people for no reason. Rose did an interview on RuPaul’s podcast where she suggested that Trans women aren’t actual women and that the experience of cis women is the same as trans women, which is categorically untrue and dangerous. Trans women are murdered for being trans. There were 28 known murders of trans people last year, at least 2 already this year. Andi was apparently in the same area and saw that Rose would be at this Barnes and Noble, and decided to confront her about these remarks. Was it the best situation to do so? Probably not. But it was not warrantless.
But is Rose really fighting for all women? Because it seems an awful lot like she’s fighting for Rose.
@Bridget
I agree. Who exactly Rose is doing all of this for is debatable. She is certainly making it about herself a lot. But I think in the larger context she is part of the current movement. Change is in the air and whether she *thinks* she is somehow more central than she is or just actually another voice among the many – she *is* part of the movement.
And, again, this was a Q&A about her book and her story. If there is ever a time when it is ok to talk about yourself it is then.
Other than monetizing her own experience with a book deal and a reality show what has Rose done for ANYONE other than herself? She didnt get the me too movement off the ground. That was Tarana Burke. It was also Alyssa Milano who started the hashtag Twitter trend. Rose had nothing to do with that. But she did try to hitch her wagon to it and make it all about her with her “Rose Army”. It’s literally called the ROSE army. She’s a narcissist
Okay but isn’t that what the woman yelling at her did? Pointing out who’s the most victimized? Certainly did that in that Daily Beast piece. It’s a point to make but not in connection with Rose McGowan.
You can argue that what Rose said on Ru’s podcast was borderline transphobic. I think she just isn’t able to articulate herself very well at the moment but yes, she might be transphobic. And she might have tunnel vision re feminism. But seriously, HOW, in her situation, is that something we’re even discussing? She is the LAST person who is responsible for being inclusive etc. I’m getting so tired of people judging her for everything.
ETA: From the link you posted: “She doesn’t have to worry about getting followed home [any]more with her security detail and privilege, while my trip to Barnes & Noble could have been my last one.”
Really??? Come on.
“She doesn’t have to worry about getting followed home [any]more with her security detail and privilege, while my trip to Barnes & Noble could have been my last one.”
Really??? Come on.“
Your “really? Come on” suggests that you think this woman is being overly dramatic, but I’m sorry, that’s a marker of privilege. You have no idea what it’s like to live the experience of a transgender person and yet you feel perfectly comfortable brushing hers off because you think she’s exaggerating. it is an actual fact that trans women are murdered for being trans, regularly. I understand that this was not the time and place to call Rose on it, but it doesn’t change the fact that her views are problematic. And so are the views of many people on this thread, so I’m done trying to argue this with people who don’t want to listen.
I think it wad short sighted for Andi to suggest that Rose is immune to being “followed” or abuse bc of her status or being a cis woman. Yes trans women are more likely to be abused but telling a woman who has already bern victimized that she is privillaged amd doesnt need to worry about a victim is just ridiculous.
Andi is a terrible person by all reports so nothing she says matters much.
This interview was terrible & self-serving. I don’t know whether the interviewer did a poor job properly representing the trans woman or what but it’s pretty bad.
And I’m no fan of Mcgowan.
I’ll agree with you that it’s not an artfully-done interview, it was for a small magazine and was focused on one side of the issue. That doesn’t change the fact that, IMO at least, the perspective is important.
I don’t want to argue with you but this line from the interview is quite disturbing
“It hurts. Because when someone pulls down her pants and sees a vagina, she won’t be murdered for it. That is not something she fears. ”
Imagine saying this about a RAPE VICTIM. Someone pulled down her pants, saw a vagina & raped her. This is literally what many many women around the world fear. Women especially in third world countries get raped & murdered at alarming rates. It’s extremely insensitive to dismiss them like this.
I suspect that maybe Andi was trying to say something different & couldn’t articulate herself better & the interviewer didn’t bother to correct it either.
No arguments from me here. I agree that, when read in the context of rape, that comes off as insensitive and offensive. That was Andi’s f*ck-up; I think she was speaking in general terms about the idea that, in normal, consensual sexual encounters, when a woman is undressed by a man she doesn’t have to worry about being killed in a rage because he sees a penis. But again, she failed to consider that she was speaking in the context of Rose’s rape and it does come off problematic. In discussing this with you all and reading the other comments on this thread, it’s obvious that Andi is not the best messenger but I do still think it’s the right message.
“Because when someone pulls down her pants and sees a vagina, she won’t be murdered for it.”
That is such bullsh*t!!!!!!! No, women DO get killed every day for being women! The #1 cause of death of pregnant women in the USA is HOMICIDE!
Just as Rose diminished the needs of the trans community when she was on RuPaul, Andi is diminishing the needs of cis women here. Neither of these things are right!
Having actually read the interview I am left gobsmacked that you would actually consider this a good source?
The entire first paragraph consists of an unfounded attack on Rose? It is full of speculation and interpretation with zero facts backing their assertions. They basically just say she is transphobic because we said so oh and the fight that Andi Dier started proves it. WTF.
Everything this Andi Dier person said was ridiculously overblown, self-serving and just not true.
AND ANDI DIER OUTRIGHT CLAIMS THAT ROSE WAS NOT RAPED IN THIS INTERVIEW. How about we talk about THAT issue for a second.
I’m not writing a thesis paper. I’m not trying to prove anything. I shared that interview because, to me, it’s a trans woman sharing her story which it not something we get to hear very often. I never claimed it was an irrefutable source, and again, I’m not writing a research paper and asking you to give me a grade. I said above that I know the interview is one-sided. It was for perspective.
But since you want to treat this like an academic exchange, please copy and paste the exact line where you see Andi claim that Rose was not raped. I read the entire interview a few days ago and never would have shared it had I seen that. I just re read it and found no insinuation of the sort. So please do share the line here.
@ Shambles, I’m not challenging you to write a thesis paper. I just thought that this specific advocate is not actually doing a good at it with their own words.
And here is the text:
“Question: How is your experience as a trans woman different from that of Rose McGowan?
Answer: My experience is different because I have been followed home. I have been sexually assaulted and raped. (…) ”
She is specifically asked how her experience is different to Rose’s and the first thing she says is that she has been assaulted and raped. So is she not implying that Rose actually hasn’t? When she went after her at an event specifically about this subject? This is beyond “problematic” and “insensitive”.
Yeah that part was….not great. But I don’t think she was actually trying to discredit Rose or claim that she lied, more likely she answered hastily and somewhat carelessly.
ETA I know Shamby. With full context, I think she was drawing a parallel to Rose’s experience, but also pointing out the heightened dangers that a trans woman faces.
You just selectively copied and pasted the part of the quote that fits your argument, and as such this is the last time I’m replying to you. I don’t have time to debate with someone who compromises the integrity of a discussion by pulling the kind of misleading bullish!t you just did.
Here is the FULL quote in question:
“My experience is different because I have been followed home. I have been sexually assaulted and raped. But I’ve also almost been murdered for getting a bite to eat.”
Really f*cking convenient how you left out that last sentence, because it changes the ENTIRE context of the quote. That *BUT* you see right there?? That’s the key. She’s saying “Like Rose McGowan, I have been sexually assaulted and raped, but I have also almost been murdered for existing in a public space.” That’s the crux of it right there.
I understand that Andi’s messaging is also problematic, and there is room for criticism of both women, but I am so genuinely upset at what you just did. Why not include the full quote?? Because you knew it wouldn’t give you the fodder you needed to sit here and defend transphobia. I feel mildly gaslighted right now and I am done with this. Peace.
I agree, Shambles.
Other gems from Rose:
2014 – accusing the gay community for not caring about women’s rights and that activists were only focused on drug use and wearing skimpy clothing: “I see now, basically, people who’ve fought for the right to stand on top of a float wearing an orange speedo and take molly. And, I see no help, and I see no paying it forward, and I have a huge problem with that. There are so many things to help and do, and I see no extending of a hand outside of the gay community to another community. And that’s a problem for me.” Rose McGowan also stated, “Gays are misogynistic as straight men, if not more so. I have an indictment of the gay community right now. I’m actually really upset with them.” She later apologized for generalizing gay men as misogynistic, but defended the rest of her comments.
Even during her defense of the comments and the ‘apology’ she was pulling this:
“I do expect more from a group of people that understands discrimination. … What I want is for gay rights activists to help other disenfranchised groups. These activists are experts while so many other groups flounder. It’s time to share the wealth and knowledge.”
So while there are people defending her for not having to be everything to everyone – why is it cool that she expects that from others? This is my main issue with Rose. When it comes to her – she thinks it’s okay. But will always expect more from others. The child molester stunt – she didn’t want to comment or judge on it because she didn’t WANT to know more despite it being brought up in interviews. But when women said that they didn’t know the extent of HW’s crimes she went IN for them. It’s okay for HER not to know more or do anything. But when it comes to other people she always expects them to know all and do all.
Her comments on race and the LGBTQI community have always been sketchy. This isn’t something new – this isn’t something that can be chalked up to suddenly having so much extra pressure. She’s had years to learn more on these subjects – years of apologizing. You would think that she could manage at least a vaguely helpful response on this topic at this point. She’s been through hell – I believe that. But having suffered trauma isn’t always going to be a pass for poor behavior. I don’t expect her to be a perfect advocate or a perfect victim – but I would hope that she would start to learn why the things she says are hurtful and at least make SOME kind of improvement there.
Andi is right. There is statistically way more chances of a trans woman being murdered just for existing. It’s NOT the same as being a cis woman. And the fact that Rose tried to undermine her experience in that way is upsetting. We have a likely serial killer in Canada where more murders are starting to come out. People from Toronto’s gay community have gone missing – something terrifying and unfortunately familiar. Right now we know that at least 5 people have been killed by this man – simply for being gay. Police are expecting the number to climb further. Being trans in many ways is so much more dangerous – they get attacked for trying to “trick” men, even when those men are assaulting them.
It’s F—ing hard being a woman. But I don’t doubt for a minute that it’s MUCH harder being a trans woman – especially a trans WOC.
Maybe this wasn’t the place for this conversation. But we give Rose a lot of passes for being a victim of assault – I don’t think it’s ridiculous to give Andi one as well.
I think the message is important but Andi is def the wrong messanger..what with being accused of sexual assaulting several women.
@ Errin, after reading this interview Andi Dier is getting exactly zero passes from me on anything ever.
And to be quite honest it is uncomfortable how you also seem to be participating in the ‘Who is more victimized’ game. Female suffering (ALL FEMALE SUFFERING) needs to not be a game of one-upsmanship.
Our movement needs to be inclusive and the facts and numbers you present are important. But Andi is not a good advocate for your cause by trying to lift her cause up on the back of a fellow victim.
Thank you for sharing these and articulating your views so well. I can’t be a productive part of this conversation anymore because I’m obviously too emotionally invested and frustrated. Suffice to say that it’s obvious this is not a one-off and Rose has a history of problematic activism.
She’s always been like this and her attitude is precisely why she shouldn’t be a spokesperson in any capacity.
I feel very much for her in that she has been abused and assaulted and obviously never had the opportunity to properly heal, but she is NOT good at activism. Great activists are able to harness their anger in a productive way, to affect real change; That means being able to temper the rage and to be willing to LISTEN to differing viewpoints, ones that may occasionally take you to task. Great activists do a lot of emotional work both internally and externally–it is draining as hell and requires a very strong emotional constitution. Rose does not have that. She needs to step aside for her own well-being and when she’s ready, she needs to look inward because she has a lot of work to do in terms of her problematic white feminism.
@BaronSameldi- when is the right time to talk about trans issues though? Violence against the trans community is simply not a topic that is discussed often enough.
IMO white women who have been granted a public platform should be using it to help ALL women. So no, she doesn’t have to “lift them up” but if she really believed in supporting *all* women, she would. The truth is that Rose seems very focused on Rose. That’s her right of course, but let’s not pretend that she’s a great feminist leader. She’s a survivor who made a worthwhile contribution to one of the most important movements of our time. She helped to expose and take down Weinstein, but she’s not the architect of the movement, that title belongs to Tarana Burke, a woman of color, and Rose would be smart to remind herself of that fact.
@kitten
I’m actually agreeing with you. I don’t appreciate the way Rose is going about many, many things. And I have little love for her narcissism.
I just don’t think that this attack on her happened in good faith. Andi Dier wanted publicity and she got it. She went about it in a way I personally find distasteful.
It just didn’t seem like Andi wanted an actual dialogue and tbh you would not crash a Rose McGowan event like this with the expectation to have a calm and rational discussion about feminist issues.
This was messy on both their parts. I don’t think it was healthy of Andi Dier to choose that particular time and place to call out an abuse victim for not doing anything for trans women. And judging by what’s come out about Andi, it’s definitely a case of ‘right message, wrong messenger.’ But you’re right about Rose needing to hold herself to the same standards she holds other people to, and I don’t think her suffering should end up meaning that there’s never a ‘right’ time, reason, or way to criticize her. I do worry about her though.
@Shambles – I get that. It’s an incredibly emotional topic – and I fully undertand how that can be overwhelming. Much love from me, bud.
@Baron
“And to be quite honest it is uncomfortable how you also seem to be participating in the ‘Who is more victimized’ game. Female suffering (ALL FEMALE SUFFERING) needs to not be a game of one-upsmanship.”
And quite honestly, it’s uncomfortable that this movement keeps diminishing the fact that a white cis woman will – more often than not – have an easier time than a WOC or a woman who is part of the LGTBQI community. I – as a white straight woman – have no business telling a woman like Andi or a WOC that their suffering is the same as mine – that I’ve got it just as bad. That it’s all the same. It’s NOT all the same – and telling people to stop the one-up-manship does nothing to help with being inclusive. The fact that you’re saying we need to be more inclusive with this movement – but are unwilling to see that there are groups that are not being accepted to the same level as white cis women is still damaging. Mainstream feminism has a problem with inclusivity. It always has. A lot of the suffragettes jumped in on the movement because they were opposed to be considered ‘less than’ a black man – and wanted to maintain a standing of superiority. It’s ALWAYS had problems. Unfortunately, we still live in a world where people are on different ledges. A white straight woman is still beneath a white straight dude, but still has more chances/options/privilege than a person of color, or someone who is part of the LGBTQI community. I think it’s incredibly important to recognize that, and to do what we can to take the concerns of communities that we don’t identify with and work on those as well. It’s not a case of “well, we all suffered, just support the movement as it is” – the kind of criticism about inclusiveness NEEDS to be taken into consideration and a lot of work needs to be done. We can’t shut down those conversations and keep going on without ever changing and adapting.
Was this a messy thing? Yes. I’ve also never said that Andi is some kind of perfect advocate. When a celebrity makes shitty comments about a group of people – as Rose has done MULTIPLE times – I don’t think it should just be swept away. I think that her being questioned about this IS fair. She’s made herself a spokesperson for the movement – and is constantly being a moral judge and jury on other people who she doesn’t believe are doing enough or are somehow complicit. Andi might have her own reasons for doing it this way – there might have been some self promotion. But at the same time Rose has been doing an awful lot of self promotion as well. She’s attacked other women as well. She’s done a lot of the things that she supposedly hates – but has no problem with it, and doesn’t seem to really have any remorse. She isn’t learning – and I really don’t think she wants to. With all of the opportunities she’s had, she keeps choosing willful ignorance on so many topics.
Even with THIS specific event – she was tweeting a demand for an apology and damning EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT ROOM:
“I am canceling upcoming public appearances because I have given enough. I have given beauty, in return I was VERBALLY ASSAULTED for two full minutes @BNBuzz by an actor paid to verbally assault a woman who has been terrorized by your system. And no ONE in that room did anything. And everyone from my publicists, t assistants, managers and every person sitting in their chairs frozen by their weakness, a weakness called COMPLICITY. The truth is you all failed me. Again. And again. And again.” and “I would like an apology from the manager of the Union Square @BNUnionSquareNY and all security people, and the audience, who did nothing and let the paid verbal assault of an assaulted woman happen. Cool?”
She’s an angry kid who’s taking their toys and going home. She’s turned on the people who were there to support her. They’re all horrible, complicit people. But not Rose. Not Rose who supported a pedophile and made nice, fluffy comments about them even after the news had come out. Not Rose who refused to look into it once it was brought to her attention and claimed she didn’t want to know more. Not Rose who promotes stereotypes of the LGBTQI community. Not Rose who tells other people to shut up. Rose who keeps talking about her gifts to the planet, and how much she’s given. She talks about how she REALLY cares about the movement, but only in ways that it effects her.
“The Cult of Complicity- those I call out are after me. This is the monster who was paid to violate me publicly. An aggressive two minutes long assault on a long abused woman who is simply trying to change the world and make it better #RoseArmy”
She’s still unwilling to believe that this woman wasn’t paid to do this. She’s got a scary level of god complex over this movement. It’s all about her. The things that she calls out and condemns in other people are in many cases the things that she does herself. But whenever someone complains about HER behavior she shuts it down and keeps putting herself in a different level of accountability than everyone else and that’s terrifying. She’s all about this movement as long as it benefits her. Anything outside of that, she’s meh about. She’s made sure that her name is associated with this – that she’s front and center. She keeps talking about all women suffering, but not actually listening to the experience of women that aren’t her.
There is no need to have the “who’s more victimized” conversation because we already know the answer. 53% of white women voted for Donald Trump. 53% of white women voted for a man who has sexually assaulted women. 53% of white women voted for a man who has degraded and objectified women, including his own daughter. 53% of white women chose to vote for and uphold toxic masculinity because it benefits them in other ways. This was not a mild/twisted case of stockholm syndrome. This was 53% of white women stating they don’t care about other women and minority groups because of other benefits they stood to reap. For further evidence, please see Caitlyn Jenner.
IMPT: This is not that any women’s victimization is “less valid” but instead, to point out that people are marginalized and victimized in different and/or multiple ways, and to varying degrees. This is the point of intersectional feminism.
I don’t like the way Andi has compares and quantifies HER sufferings, the thing’s that have happened to her, as bigger or more important than what happened to McGowan.
has anyone done anything for Rose? she has basically turned herself into a complete martyr at tremendous cost to her mental and emotional wellbeing. I feel so bad for this woman. it cannot be easy coming from this place of hurt and pain and being sidelined and ignored for so long. as a victim of abuse and seeing your abusers walk around like normal, I totally relate to her breakdown. but I hope someone steps in and Rose is willing to accept help, support and love. I think she had done more for these abused women that the #metoo brigade paying lip service.
Turning up to heckle an obviously traumatised victim of rape for not using the right words to discuss transgender issues is a fairly obnoxious thing to do IMHO.
Yes. Terrible way to try to advocate for transgender rights, if that was she was trying to do anyway.
It’s going to backfire.
ITA.
Sexual predators like Andi Dier have a vested interest in silencing those speaking out against sexual predators. And they know what language to use to get people on their side.
+1
A Q&A for Rose’s book about her rape and her vicitimzation is not the right venue for that person’s Trans issues.
It just isn’t. And I have looked at what precisely Rose said on Ru Paul’s show and can’t really agree that it was transphobic at all. It may have been uncomfortable for Trans persons to hear but it was factually correct and certainly NOT a reason to go after her in this setting.
Plus: Since when does Rose have to be everything to everyone at the same time. She is clearly struggling with what has happened to her and is advocating on this one issue. Coming after her about inclusive feminism seems… asking a lot of her? I actually thought that the question she fired back was appropiate.
You don’t show up to someone’s Q&A with these accusations if you have nothing to show for yourself either.
“It just isn’t. And I have looked at what precisely Rose said on Ru Paul’s show and can’t really agree that it was transphobic at all. It may have been uncomfortable for Trans persons to hear but it was factually correct”
You don’t get to decide what is and is not hurtful to transgender people if you are not transgender. It is not factually correct that cis women and trans women have the same life experience. Trans women are murdered specifically for being trans. 28 last year (documented, there were probably at least twice that) and already two so far this year. Rose was erasing the experience of trans people in order to center herself as the most important victim and that is 100% transphobic. It’s obvious we still have a long way to go on this issue based on some of these comments. Rose has every right to speak her truth and heal. It’s not an excuse for transphobia
I was talking about the comments she made on Ru Paul.
Which were exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. To paraphrase: She said that a trans woman growing can fundamentally not have the same experience as a young Cis girl because they are not subjected to the things young girls going through puberty have to go through. Now, she probably meant girls who have not ‘come out’ yet but it is factually true. She referenced things like the first period, getting catcalled and perved on by older men. These are all facts.
I don’t consider trans women any less women than myself but yes, our formative years are different and there are experiences about our paths to womanhood we will never share.
You are saying WOMEN are NOT MURDERED for BEING WOMEN??? I have 2 words for your self-righteous indignation: Malala Yousafzai. Sit down and educate yourself.
Women are murdered for being women. We are ALL victims at the hands of men, but there are many reasons that trans women are at a higher risk. It deserves a full discussion and not bombing a mentally fragile rape victim’s book signing. There are times and places for productive conversations, but this was just a stunt.
I also have an issue with an alleged rapist like Andi behaving aggressively toward a victim and making them feel unsafe.
Well put magnoliarose.
To show up at a Rose’s book launch and start shouting at her is a terrible thing to do. No wins in this. Rose is not a “perfect victim” but after what she’s experienced where’s the compassion??
I agree. Where is the compassion? It seems like people are siding with the jerk who screamed at Rose. I don’t get it. Yeah, Rose freaked out–she’s in a very fragile place right now. We should be mad at the bully who interrupted her.
If there’s one thing I learned during my struggle with PTSD, it’s that you can’t share your pain with people, not even the ones you trust. The minute you show your RAW pain like Rose did here, people will start to look down at you and ostracize you.
Rose shouldn’t be doing tours or promoting anything, she needs help.
One can argue that writing and working can help people cope with trauma, but I think Rose’s emotional stability is in danger, and she shouldn’t be dealing with trolls or with people who are desperate to get into the spotlight.
I hope somebody out there still cares for Rose and gives her the support she needs.
Transphobia is not okay. That being said, she’s struggling right now and can’t be all things to all people; now is probably not a good time to come at her being confrontational. She deserves to be listened to for a while because she was silenced for so long. There’s a time and a place to question her on this issue, but during this event was probably not the time or the place. I truly hope she finds peace and an uplifting support network.
I don’t understand what Andi wanted to accomplish by crashing McGowan’s book Q&A about what little she does for trans women. Is Rose’s responsability that trans women in prison are kept with men? IDK, this feels awkward and misplaced to me. McGowan can be problematic and a victim at the same time. She can be transphobic and a victim of rape, assault, harrassment and stalking, too.
Both were in the wrong but I simply cannot understand Andi’s motivations beyond trying to further disrupt an already disrupted person on the brink of a public crisis and breakdown.
You can’t tell an adult what to do , so she’s got to find out the hard way. It would have been better for her to get her own healing to a certain point before she went out to promote this. It was clear she wasn’t in the best space emotionally before she embarked on this tour and it’s only gotten worse. There are emotions and situations that you literally ‘burn’ through when you’re healing from this and you need to do that in private. What’s left after that is a foundation of strength and wisdom which is what you use to move forward.
When you make decisions out of reaction rather than from a space of love & self-care, you end up here. She’s not the author/face of this movement. She’s the author of her own experience, and the sooner she realizes that the better off she will be.
I think this is well said.
I feel so badly for everything she has gone through, and her anger and reactions are all understandable and justified, but I think she is harming herself further right now.
She’s rapidly losing my support because she just keeps coming after everyone …. so much pent up anger is understandable but misfiring it does much more harm.
Rose was raped and is clearly traumatized. But that doesn’t erase the fact that she’s also always been kind of an asshole. And this whole crusade she’s on feels an awful lot like it’s focused on selling her story, period. I know that it must be intoxicating to finally have people sit up and take notice of you, and have a voice (which her predator had actively worked to erase). But beyond calling people out on Twitter, is Rose really the activist that people are pushing her as? All I see is a traumatized woman who needs serious, serious help.
I don’t like Rose but this was ridiculous. Disrupting & shouting down a rape victim will win you no sympathy from me. And then a stream of allegations about the women confronting her started coming out. Absolutely ridiculous.
Men sit back and laugh as women rip each other apart in public.
Women, all women, must stand together. We can’t be all things to each other, but we must be THERE for each other, we must support each other, we must believe each other.
We also must teach each other. You don’t know the minute of my struggle, I don’t know the minute of yours. But I’m there to listen, to learn, to help and to support. To make things better for all.
Is this easy? Of course not. But it’s long overdue.
Scenes like what happened at the book signing are perfect for feeding the stereotype that women are irrational, rather than enriching the story that women are standing up for long overdue respect and equality.
Yes, women must stand togther.
Thank you. Can’t edit. Damned auto-correct changed “minutae” to “minute.”
Exactly! The good old boys stick together, that’s how they keep their wages higher than ours, that’s how we are second rate citizens. We need to stick together. We are too busy raising kids, and working and taking care of our elderly family members, that in the little time we do have we need not fight each other! Let’s do this!
Men disagree with each other publicly all the time. Women should be able to do so as well. However, in this case, Rose is not at the point where she can entertain civil discourse with someone who not only disagrees with her but is probably triggering some very deep wounds. There are all kinds of people who are going to show up at these things and challenge you. This is her book tour and she gets to decide what she will and won’t speak about. She was so caught up emotionally that she forgot that she is the one who is actually in control. Not everything needs to be addressed right away. This is why it’s too soon for her to be doing this.
It’s possible to find both Andi AND Rose problematic. It’s possible to think Andi ambushed Rose and has issues of her own while also understanding that Rose has a history of repeating white cis feminist tropes that erase both trans women and women of color.
These aren’t mutually exclusive topics.
Exactly.
True.
this is why victims are revictimized, and then called toxic, from absorbing so much negativity and backlash. not all abused women grow up to be well ajusted hollywood stars, what about those women?!
I’m not going to lie, it is sad to see so many take the side of the heckler who turned out to be a sexual abuser over the rape survivor. Someone guilty of sexual abuse shouted at a rape survivor and you guys see no problem with that!
@Lurker – I have some rather strong words to say on that subject, but I’ll leave it for now at saying that I agree with you 100 percent.
Rose may be unlikable and lashing out but jfc look at her heckler and what they were doing. Being trans isn’t a get out of jail free card for being an entitled derailing jerk.
And that’s without even getting into what turned out to be a rapist daring to treat a rape survivor this way.
Trans activists want to change things and want to bring people on board. If this was a GOP event and an activist went hard at Ted Cruz, it would have made sense because his power can change lives. This was not that.
Exactly! I feel like I’m in Bizarro World here.
It’s absolutely crazy. SMH. And I say this as someone who is definitely NOT a Rose M fan.
I feel very bad for Rose here. She is clearly in a fragile state and probably has no business doing PR at this time, and she’s problematic on top of her fragility, but….
This isn’t some regular activist in full control of her faculties. The issues faced by transgender citizens are also important, have also been quieted over the years, but that didn’t make this the venue for discussing that. Frankly it’s beginning to feel like when Britney went off the deep end a decade ago and people just kept gawking. I hope Rose can find peace. I hope Harvey and the rest get theirs.
Andi needs to take all the seats. Rose stating that trans women don’t have the same experiences as non trans women is not transphobic it’s a fact. This event wasn’t about Andi or trans women; it was about Rose’s experiences and it was trash for Andi to hijack the event to push her own agenda. And I don’t care how problematic Rose is, it’s not acceptable.
Yes, this absolutely! Rose viewed without context is a very incomplete picture.
BTW, I really enjoy and usually agree with your comments on things. Thanks for your thoughtful, level-headed approach to “this thing called life” **.
**Prince on the mind : )
Don’t ever forget this Trans activist is a KNOWN sexual predator.
Exactly, and has been a known sexual predator for nearly a decade – there are twitter timestamps going all the way back to 2010.
Rose of all women does not owe a sexual predator jack shit no matter how much they scream at her. I can’t believe there are people in here who seem to think she did.
I haven’t read all comments, maybe it’s mixed, but Rose shouldn’t be doing these events right now. Imo. Maybe later, but she is in ‘need.’ Perhaps a level head would’ve seen the heckling for what it was. There are different conversations going on here, and when you enter heated controversies from a place of confusion things take embarrassing nosedives.
Google “Andi Dier pedophile” and you’ll find all you need to know about that deranged pig. Poor Rose. I would’ve raged too.
Blaming the people who came to see her? Really? I had heard the tape. They were very supportive of her, trying to talk her down afterwards. How are they to blame for the back and forth between her and the woman on transgender issues? But she calls her own audience out. Wow. That is low.
Neither one of them came out looking good anyway, the way both spoke. She let that person provoke her and she showed she’s still unstable to me.
That’s the feeling I got from the Stephen Colbert. But blaming the audience I just don’t get. She, in her mind, becomes the martyr, done wrong by everyone, even her own fans that came to hear her talk and supported her there.
Rose is smart to pull out of promoting her book right now. She needs to get help so she doesn’t spiral all the way down.
I felt bad for her show. It only got 200,000 who tuned in. Trump’s speech was that night, but her potential audience wouldn’t be watching him anyway. They put it up on E on their website to watch for anyone that missed it.
Rose isn’t in the most stable frame of mind but it’s complete bullshit that this person dared to shout down a rape survivor at an event where she was speaking about her experience.
And that’s before even getting into the fact that this so-called ‘trans activist’ Andi Dier has been accused of raping several underage girls (the tweets on the subject go as far back as seven years ago so it’s not something surfacing in response to Rose). Rapists having the nerve to chastise and make demands on rape survivors is a new low, but we’re expected to side with the rapist purely for being trans? NO.
HOLY CRAP. “Andi dier” is a rapist???? WOW. That’s frightening and sick. I agree with everything you said. This person verbally assaulted a rape survivor at her OWN EVENT. Sickening.
Rose does not need to take on transgender issues. She is fighting her own fight right now and yes, while there are issues facing transgender people, Rose has her OWN battle right now. That person did a disgusting and disrespectful thing to her. Rose was telling her story of her rape and she was viciously verbally attacked by an aggressive hateful individual who behaved frighteningly and inappropriately. Rose has repeatedly said she fears for her life and this person not only triggered her but made her feel threatened and afraid. Rose is clearly extremely fragile right now and this person should have had the brains to recognize that and NOT ATTACK A VICTIM OF ABUSE.
Shame on that Andi person.
That’s fine. I agree about the person in the audience. She had a right to react, but Rose still sounded unbalanced to me.
As for her OWN battle. You do know that she is guilty of the same thing, don’t you? So then why does she call out people for the exact same thing from her viewpoint? I mean, who the fvck is she to call out Ellen on her tweet below?
Rose is very hypocritical and judgmental and alienating to those who are essentially allies in what began back when the two articles were published outing Harvey. She can be doing great things. It doesn’t erase all of the issues with her that some want to overlook that hurts her own mission. I don’t particularly like Rose for those reasons. And while saying that, I can also say she has been important in many ways, and good for her for calling out the bullshit about CAA.
But while you are defending Rose for sticking to her issues, here’s just one example of her being a hypocrite, and informing well-meaning people, activists in their own right, how they should be tweeting about a specific issue in the news.
In October:
In response to recent laws passed in the state in which LGBTQ individuals can be refused service and treatment due to “religious objections,” DeGeneres tweeted, “Right now in Mississippi, gay people can be refused service, and trans people can be refused treatment. Mississippi, you deserve better.”
Unprovoked, McGowan then replied to Ellen’s tweet and said, “Right now in America,birth control is being taken away&abortion is almost illegal. Speak for women as well plz. Huge platform.”
Ummmm to the best of my knowledge Rose is not a rapist so maybe we could dial down the false equivalence here?
It’s a jerk move from Rose to Ellen and she should be called on it but how is Rose’s Twitter rant even remotely close to a (let’s not forget this part) RAPIST showing up to heckle a rape survivor at an event specifically meant for her to speak about her experiences of the assault and harassment?
And we’re supposed to be sympathising with the heckler rapist because they’re trans? Like I said above, Andi Dier deserves jail, not any claim on sympathy by being portrayed as some poor civilian ‘trans activist’ who went up against a famous actress.
I would never sympathize with the heckler. I said I didn’t agree with it, period, in my post above. But blaming your audience is a shit move and demanding an apology from her own fans who were there is bizarre. And her behavior is still concerning in response to the heckler, still making no sense to me. I stand by what I’ve been saying, Rose is unstable and needs help.
I’ve supported her by ordering her book, watching her TV show, because she is important with her voice out there. I still find a lot of other things about her absolutely problematic and don’t give her a pass when I do. Ellen’s tweet was an important tweet. All Rose had to do was retweet it in support of what Ellen’s tweet was about, an important issue. But, no, Rose became God and informed Ellen her tweet wasn’t good enough. Not only that, she didn’t in her own tweet even acknowledge that what Ellen was talking about was important, just took the time to retweet it to tell her what was missing.
I responded to the original poster’s comment about Rose only has to talk about her experience and pointed out her hypocrisy in her behavior to others out there speaking out about issues. I don’t like the way she is turning on many women who don’t deserve it, and I stand by that. Her lashing out at people like Ellen, etc., are why many people are distancing themselves from her. Why put themselves in the line of fire?
I still admire the fact that she has pointblank called out CAA and calls their attachment to #TimesUp bullshit and PR.
I wouldn’t be shocked at all if Weinstein, or his buddies, weren’t behind this somehow.
Everyone agreeing with Andi and lashing out at Rose: You have Harvey Weinstein on your side. Yay you!
For all of those white commenters bitching about “Why do we have to help WOC or trans people?”, listen up.
All of these years we’ve been scratching your back and now that we’re asking you to do the same for us, it’s now too hard? You haven’t even done jack yet and it’s too hard, it’s not fair, why?, blah, blah, blah.
About half of the white women in this country are allied with the patriarchy. You need us coloreds and trans because white women can’t get it together as a majority group to do anything other than scratch their heads. Y’all are too comfortable with your privelege to do anything else besides complain and co-opt WOC movements. It’s easier for about half of you to bitch about POC and trans people making you feel bad than confronting your racist family, friends, etc.
As a black commenter who bitched about this I have to disagree with this shifting of the goal posts.
This whole discussion is about one thing: Rose McGowan a rape victim had an event to talk about her rape and her experience. A heckler decided to show and make it all about HER specific issues.
I am shocked that we even need to discuss the fact that this is wrong no matter what problematic things Rose may have said. You don’t make an injustice right by commiting another injustice. This a lesson Kindergartners learn.
As for the feminism debate: It simply does not serve the cause of underprivileged people to lift themselves up by shutting down other victimized groups.
This is a case of a trans person trying to silence a rape survivor. If you honestly think that this is ok I have to strongly disagree with you.
Speaking as a woc…. so are you choosing to ignore the fact that this “activist” is an alleged rapist ? And a paedophile?
I agree there’s a lot to be done in terms of activism but a rapist and paedophile trying to shout down a rape survivor is not part of it. Even Dier’s alleged “activism” sounds a lot like the bullshit excuses proffered by rapist men when they’re (they give to charity! They campaigned against the NRA! They would never hurt a fly!).
And disabled women – some of the most vulnerable and under reported – are left out of the conversation again.