I think it’s perfectly acceptable to hold these two thoughts at the same time:
Thought #1: The GOP/Deplorable party is super-eager to go full throttle Whataboutism with Bill Clinton because attacking the Clintons is a throwback to their deplorable glory days in the ‘90s, when the current GOP machinery really came together. It still pisses them off that Bill Clinton got two terms and left office wildly popular, and that he’s continued to be popular throughout his ex-president years. The GOP knows that any time they mention Bill and/or Hillary Clinton, they’re stirring up their base. The rest of us should stop constantly relitigating all of this old bullsh-t and stop falling into these dumb traps set by the GOP.
Thought #2: 2018 is a new era in how we talk about sexual harassment and abuse and trauma given the #MeToo movement. No one is safe, especially not powerful men who behaved poorly towards women for years, and yes, that includes Bill Clinton. There’s a way to differentiate between “men who cheat and fool around” and “men who hurt women,” and it’s a worthwhile exercise to simply ask where Bill Clinton falls.
So given those two thoughts, please hate-watch this short video from the Today Show, which aired this morning:
“Through the lens of #MeToo now, do you think differently or feel more responsibility?… Did you ever apologize to her [Lewinsky]?” @craigmelvin to Bill Clinton pic.twitter.com/rXcixhDHER
— TODAY (@TODAYshow) June 4, 2018
This was… not good from Bill Clinton. Also, why is HE still bound and determined to relitigate this sh-t? Obviously, he wasn’t expecting the question and he seems rusty AF when scrambling to justify everything. Personally, I thought Monica Lewinsky’s “did my story belong in the #MeToo movement?” essay was kind of bulls–t. She was an adult, she made a series of choices, and she was victimized… by Ken Starr. Bill Clinton should have known better, just like he should have f–king known better than to cite his credentials in working with women as some sort of shield to deflect criticism. Oh, he put women in positions of power throughout his career? That’s awesome, but it also doesn’t mean that he hasn’t abused women. It’s like a more high-minded version of “…but I have a daughter!”
Hey, remember how the current president has been accused of sexually harassing and assaulting more than 16 women? Remember how he bragged about grabbing women by the p-ssy? Remember? WHY ARE WE RELITIGATING BILL CLINTON?
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Please just GO AWAY Bill Clinton! the 2018 elections are just around the corner and we do NOT need you to screw things up for us!!!
+1000
Bill can’t mess up the 2018 election. Let me tell you who can: The Sanders.
Jane Sanders was talking over the weekend about the Democratic party not being the party for progressives and saying they have to take it back. The left wing flank is going to kill us before anyone else. It’s a two front war, and they are locked and loaded.
Yup. And the Sanders WANT to mess up the elections. They are selfish and dangerous to the Democratic party. As for Bill…I’m so disappointed in him, but he HAS already admitted that the affair was a mistake. I do NOT think that this was a #MeToo situation at all.
Try getting the hoary old warriors on the left flank to see that though. They are convinced that the Democrats are centrist wastes of space and I gotta say, I don’t ever want to hear that again. If those clowns can look at what Donald and the Grand Ol Putin Party has done and think that Hillary would have done the same… there’s no help for them. They’re as lost as the Trumpsters.
100% THIS! The Sanders should just go away.
The Sanders are absolutely toxic examples of east coast elites and white privilege. Much like Trump, they sell government as wish fulfillment to the uninformed.
Jane and Bernie need to deal with the massive role she played in bankrupting Burlington College and that ongoing investigation. Janes financial misstatements regarding fundraising and loans implicate herself and Bernie. At best she comes across as financially naive at worst she intentionally misstated the colleges outlook causing egregious financial overreach.
Did you see the garbage he’s pulling in the primary elections for his state? He doesn’t want to run as independent in the primary because he know he’ll lose, so he’ll knock out the two other (surprisingly progressive) Democratic candidates by running Democratic in the primary so that it’ll free up the position, then switch to independent in the main election. A remarkably calculated and manipulative political move considering his criticism of Clinton in the campaigns. Apparently, nobody else is allowed to make the Democratic party progressive BUT Bernie Sanders.
Yes I did Veronica. He’s rigging it, just what he accused Hillary of. He’s a lot like Trump in that way. Projecting. Now, I don’t for a moment say his policies are like Trump’s. I am talking tactics and some personality traits.
Jane Sanders is also a thief. But no one wants to talk about that because God forbid.
And now – whenever the Sanders talking about the Democrat party comes up – I will make my public service announcement: That Sanders are not Democrats.
No, Bernie Sanders is not messing up the election. The fact is that neither the DNC nor the RNC is capable of putting up an experience and competent candidate for Presidency. And no, Clinton was NOT qualified, especially if your are going to say that Bernie can’t run because of his wife’s controversy (Whitewater Gate anyone?)
The American people want a PROGRESSIVE environmentalist anti-war candidate who is not obligated to corporate interests. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are capable of providing this to their constituents.
Independent candidates will always be a bone of contention with our current two-party winner takes all system. RANKED VOTING, make it happen people.
“The fact is that neither the DNC nor the RNC is capable of putting up an experience and competent candidate for Presidency.”
That is some serious BS right there. There are PLENTLY of people who are experienced and competent. Saying Clinton wasn’t qualified would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous.
It’s almost like you get your talking points from Sputnik.
I disagree with you. Strongly. I have a softie spot for you Darla, so please don’t take my words personally or as any kind of slam. I don’t mean that way. This is just pent up frustration in general.
I am an Independent and a liberal who is more left than the Democrats and I am a critic of the Dems and have been for a very long time. I vote and support strictly on my beliefs and I won’t support a candidate just because they are Democrats. I find the party VERY centrist right leaning and that is just not where I live. The top ticket decisions are maddening and disappointing almost always and I don’t owe them my money or fealty. I further away from them today then I was before the election.
Bernie is flawed but I get sick and tired of everyone treating the man like he is anywhere near as problematic as the 50-60 million racist bigoted knuckle draggers who voted for 45. THEY are why we are where are. Jill Stein deserves more of the blame because she is an opportunist jackass whose job it is to lure away votes.
The candidates running against him are fairly progressive. Playing the system so you can use your multi-million dollar campaign fund to knock out younger candidates with less PR who may bring fresh ideas to the party is not promoting a progressive message. It’s manipulating the system in a way that makes certain he retains the power and control of the seat. Clever but definitely calculated. He’s not Trump to me, but he’s definitely a politician.
Third party candidates are not magical wizards who will swoop in and change everything at the drop of a hat. If you want a viable third party candidate, you have to build the grassroots movement to change the political system. You have to create a well-defined platform which people can get behind and support on a locate, state, and federal level. Most of the goals of progressive politics are going to require years, if not decades, of breaking down political systems to be accomplished.
I am an independent. I am not impressed with Sanders’ behavior over the past year, particularly in a time where people need to be united against the current administration. I was neutral on him in 2016, but I’ve gotten increasingly fed up with the purity politic dialogue surrounding him. He’s a human being, not a saint. Dig deep enough, and he will disappoint you in some way, somehow in the future. They all do because they are human. The voting base is who is responsible for creating a better America, not one candidate or one election.
@magnoliarose – no!in fact Bernie is pulling a Jill Stein right now. The knuckle draggers deserve more blame, sure, but Bernie is in there making as big a mess as he can if Veronica S. is right. That is some seriously toxic BS if that’s the game he’s playing and it confirms Louise Mensch-esque rumors I’ve heard about him being the beneficiary of Russian money. It is was they call horseshoe theory – pick it apart from both ends. The Bernies and Jills AND the Trumps.
I’m not gonna get mad at you magnolia, I like you too! I strongly dislike Bernie, but of course I would vote for him over trump. trump is a sadist. A true out and out sadist. There aren’t words for how much I hate him and his whole family.
Betsy – Mensch is a raving loon and I wouldn’t believe anything she says without evidence though.
@Darla 🙂 I like people who don’t mince words. At least we can roll up our sleeves and discuss. Plus your name on here is Darla. I mean…
I hear you, Veronica and Betsy. Bernie needs to sit his ass down. I used to listen to him on Thom Hartmann years before and I loved his ideas. They were good ideas then and they are now.
He is not Jill Stein though. That is unfair. For years before the election, he was talking about poverty and inequality and he has served in legit office. JS has been a hack from day one and I don’t recall Sanders being welcomed at Putin’s table or feted in Russia.
Purity tests are ridiculous and I don’t agree with that all. We need candidates who represent their constituency. I break with Progressives on this. They get on my nerves too. But I relate to the idea that there have to be things that are non-negotiable. Not a laundry list but some basics.
INDEED!
What Clinton said was absolutely fine. What are we picking at? He answered the question and he reminded the interviewer that the presumptions in the question were not fact based.
And Clinton is right. He certainly faced consequences as a result (Hello! Impeachment. and Huge legal bills). IIRC Monica apologized to Hillary or am I imagining that? Monica’s White House Escapades are not #MeToo.
Screw things up for what? The Dem party is dead. Wake up!
This “dead” party has been winning consistently in special elections across the country. The US is a 2-party system.
3rd party votes allowed Bush and Trump to win.
If you want to create a viable third party by creating the nationwide grassroots movement necessary to put candidates into local, state, and federal level offices, be my guest. Until then, two party is what we’ve got.
LOL. The GOP as we knew it is DOA with Trump at the helm. I doubt it will ever be the same.
Everything is local and state now and I think the Dems are ok there but as a national party it is weak.
‘If you want to create a viable third party by creating the nationwide grassroots movement necessary to put candidates into local, state, and federal level offices, be my guest. Until then, two party is what we’ve got.’
I agree. Progressives should just run as Democrats on exactly the same platforms they’d run on as Socialists, Greens or Inependants.
I’m not going to watch it, I just can’t take it.
I’ll just say that I always defended Lewinsky up until she recently published that piece where she basically signed herself onto the metoo movement while claiming she wasn’t.
I remember everything.
This was not a metoo situation. Period.
I am going to co-sign on EVERYTHANG you said…I too remember everything…and…THIS…was not THAT!
Paula Jones was the metoo, not Lewinsky.
Me neither.
Per Kaiser’s read, does Bill have some issues with the way he thinks about women? I should say so. But Lewinsky was in her 20s. She made a stupid mistake – like so many of us do then – and her main misfortune was in the fact that the GOP has no soul and no qualms about crushing people and her stupid mistake became a global story. But it wasn’t #metoo.
+1.
Come on.
She was an “adult”, but FFS, she was in her early 20s. Her boss was LITERALLY LIKE THE MOST POWERFUL MAN ON EARTH. She thought they were in love.
It was his job not to try it on with her. Just like it’s a high school teacher’s job to not try it on with his or her students, no matter what they want or say or wear. He failed. I had a hard time pushing back and saying no to my married boss when I was 22 – and he wasn’t the bloody President.
She didn’t have to say no to him. She just had to not go to DC “wearing my knee pads” and flash her a** at him.
By her own admission, she initiated the affair.
Please don’t do this. Please don’t perpetuate the idea that a grown woman does not have agency. She was crushing on her boss and he knew it but instead of setting clear boundaries, he gave in. He’s disgusting but he did not take advantage of her.
+1
From everything we know it was a consensual affair. I’m too young to remember who instigated it but the fact is Monica has never once said she was raped or forced to do anything. She has made statements to the effect that Clinton was in a position of power and definitely abused it by engaging in an affair with her. But basically she was too young and stupid to realize what the consequences would be and that her name would become a punchline for the rest of her life.
He “gave in” lol.
What a weak-willed man he must be, and how many hundreds of young women must he have done this with, if he can’t say no to a college-age woman with a crush.
And it was his affair, not hers.
A high school teacher not exercising the responsibility he/she has to say no to minor students isn’t the same as an employer saying yes to a twenty-something employee actively pursuing him or her, though. It was still wrong of him to do, because he was married. @Suns Up Monday your situation sounds different from Monica’s. You had a hard time pushing back and saying no to your married boss- which sounds like he was initially being pushy with you, and you were having a hard time finding a way to turn him down without potentially risking your job/ ‘causing trouble.’ Monica, from what I’ve heard, took that position with the intention of sleeping with Bill from the start.
I still think the way Monica Lewinsky has been treated for the affair is wrong, but that she and Bill both made a bad, mutually consensual choice.
Monica had a history of sleeping with married men. She knew what she was doing and was the one who started the affair by telling him she had a crush on him. Read the Starr report. I have a lot of empathy for Monica, but now is not the time for revisionist history.
wrong post
I had an affair with my married, older boss when I was her age. I regret it. I was not a victim. I was a consensual free agent. So was Lewinsky.
I agree with you, If this happened in most places of employment, the woman would have a sexual harassment suit. Courts have ruled repeatedly that thie disproportionate power between boss and subordinate negates a consensual relationship
That’s why almost all savvy and proactive organizations expressly forbid romantic relationships between individuals where a reporting relationship exists including those through a chain of command,
Peers? Different departments? Then be safe and go have fun kids.
Early 20s and the most powerful man on the planet. Not a good scenario.
I said it million times before… if Hilary dumped him maybe, just maybe the results would be different.
Monica Lewinsky was a grown woman who had had affairs with married authority figures before and announced before she even met Bill Clinton that she intended to have an affair with him. She had agency. She had some clue what she was doing. What she did not foresee was that Linda Tripp would sell her out into the Whitewater investigation and that the Republican members of Congress would hound her and chase her and lock her in a hotel room for hours with Lindsay Graham. She was not some innocent victim.
Clinton was wrong for numerous reasons to have this affair with an underling but this is NOT a #MeToo situation and it does not help anyone to classify it as such.
“Courts have ruled repeatedly that thie disproportionate power between boss and subordinate negates a consensual relationship”
InPurgatory, you’re going to have to come up with those cites for me to believe they’ve ruled categorically there can be no consensual relationship between persons of disproportionate power. That’s nonsense. Of course Clinton should have said no. But he cheated on his wife. I think he says he accepts responsibility for that. There had never been any credible evidence that Clinton abused anyone. That seems completely out of character for him. He hurt his wife and his daughter. Period.
The GOP will forever be angry that despite Clinton’s very human and not uncommon presidential flaws, he was a very good, very smart and very hard working president. Every time he talks it’s clear how smart he is – and what decent principles he has (ok ok we’re not talking about the sex LOL).
Yes, she has agency, but this is the absolute definition of a power imbalance. Bill had an ethical responsibility NOT to engage, beyond his wedding vows. That’s the balance of power-knowing how to use it, or not.
clinton is also accused of raping juanita broderick.
I think what a lot of people are picking up on in 2018 is that he, in the power position, had a responsibility and obligation to stop it and didn’t. Hell she could have been disciplined and reassigned for starting it, but I do think it crosses into his culpability when he encouraged it. I don’t think that’s taking away a grown women’s agency, she’s never really wavered from her side of the story and takes responsibility for her own role. I don’t think she’s wrong that in light of the discussions around me too, recognizing the nuance and complexity around workplace relationships and power disparities is part of the entire sexual harassment conversation. It’s all a spectrum of behavior but I would argue it’s all rooted in patriarchy and sexism. I appreciate that me too is allowing for this conversation. I think it does a disservice when everyone knee jerks to “well this wasn’t that exact thing so doesn’t count!” No Monica and Bill is not the same as Harvey Weinstein. Obviously. But he had a responsibility to not engage further and he didn’t. And I think there’s value in examining why and where we draw the lines in the context of workplace sexual harassment.
Yes, exactly. He should absolutely have shut that shit down and disengaged with her and he did not. Since he was in the position to say no, reassign her, or initiate disciplinary action, yet failed to do any of those things despite being able to wave a hand and have it done for him, I find him very much at fault. It’s yet another reiteration of a “temptress” using her “womanly wiles” to get what she wants while the man is “powerless to resist”. Give me a fucking break.
She got vilified in a way no 20 year old should have been – even decades later, everybody knows her name and I remember her story very well because I followed it attentivley and was stunned what happened.
She got punished for having an affair with a married man, who was by the way 20 years her senior. It was not right to have this affair for both of them, but the only one who got punished for it was the vulnerable 20year old. And she was very vulnerable because said married man was also her employer who did not do anything to protect her, but also let her hung and dry because it became too dangerous for him.
Had he come out and admitted the affair she would have never been treated as she was. It would have been still enough but not this crazy amount of hate.
The PR Machine used the hate towards her basically as a scapegoat. He really mistreated her. She was painted as that dumb worthless affair, it was as if floatgates of hate got opened towards her.
And she did not deserve that by no means.
What did he ever do to protect her? Or to help her?
Yes, she was used as a joke, ripped to shreds, vilified, and hounded. By the likes of Ken Starr, Bob Barr, Lindsay Graham, and their followers.
What are you talking about? Of course he suffered consequences for it. Did you miss the whole impeachment process and era?
She was in her twenties and mature enough to be accepted into a White House government program. Stop painting her as a child incapable of making adult decisions. She literally kept a dress with semen stains on it and called up Tripp to report her possession of it herself. That’s not the maneuver of somebody who wasn’t aware of the repercussions of her actions. It’s somebody who horrifically miscalculated how the media firestorm would turn on her – which wasn’t right and wasn’t fair, but she played her hand poorly. It wasn’t just dealt to her.
I think Clinton was generally a good president. But he ruined a young woman’s life and he should apologize.
Veronica s: The way Monica ended up wiyh that dress and why she held onto it is not at all the way you and the rest of the world claim happened. The establishment PR determined to discredit Monica deliberately obfuscated how and why she had that dress and how Linda was able to report that she had the dress.
It’s disgusting that you use the misleading obfuscated PR talking points to paint Monica as the Scarlet woman and to slut-shame her.
I dont think recognizing Bill Clinton is a horrible/sketchy person and recognizing that the GOP and Bigly are poisonous hypocrites are mutually exclusive…
That’s the point. They shouldn’t be. But when what-about is played, people dig their heels in. To win against a Trumper, you have to say “Yeah, he’s awful. I don’t support his history of sexual misconduct. Why do you support Trump’s?”
This. Some of the deplorables/their apologists are probably already salivating over this and ready to gloat like they’ve ‘won’ something because the cognitive dissonance runs deep with those ones.
Let’s see the current president be asked his thoughts on #MeToo.
Of course they’re not. But the right is incapable of such nuance, unfortunately.
Of course not, but you’re missing the point. It’s an “us vs. them” thing, and always has been. Our side is good, their side is bad. Their side is bad simply and solely because they are NOT us, therefore we are good. It doesn’t matter which side you are on, this is the mentality, which is the inevitable outcome of a two party system.
I still see it as abuse. He was in a position of power, and took advantage of it. Sure she was 24, but she was naive and he was her boss. And when did he apologize?
On another note, was he really 16M in debt when he left the WH? Yikes!
He apologized publicly to her and her family along with apologizing to his family. It was some speech he made and they showed a clip of it during this interview. I’m not siding with him, just answering your question…
He did not take advantage of her! She initiated the relationship! Read the Starr report please! Monica at that age already had a history of sleeping with married men.
I mean…24 is mid-twenties. You may have less experience, but you’re past the stage being a naive teenager who can claim you don’t understand the repercussions of your actions. She’s working in the WHITE HOUSE of all places, not a basic 9 to 5 job. While I agree he took advantage of the power and appeal of his office to sleep with her, being an abusive sexual predator is an entirely different issue. It would be a different if she had stated he threatened her with firing her or had initiated it from the start, but by her own admission, she initiated and pursued him. He holds the majority of the responsibility because of what he was at the time and the age/power difference between them, but she was not some wilting flower cowed into the bedroom through excessive force.
I mean, not that I’m here to stan for Bill Clinton because he is garbage, but the situation was definitely a little bit more nuanced than “powerful man pursues little woman.” It’s good to have a discussion about those power dynamics, but don’t erase her agency.
I was a mother and married at 24. Believe me, at 24, I knew whether having sex with a married man was right or wrong. Where the issue comes in with Monica Lewinsky, is how Washington, the Republicans, and the Press used her to take down the Clintons. He is guilty of being a scum bag, but Monica is not innocent in this, and his power wasn’t used to take advantage of her. Monica was attracted to his power and wanted to him because of it. She was very willing to engage in this torrid affair. I don’t like the idea of infantalizing women. But all Bill had to say was. “I behaved in a way that I’m not proud of. I have apologized to my wife, daughter and the American people. Monica and I engaged in an affair that was wrong and I’m sorry the entire affair affected her life in such a negative way.”
What keeps getting lost in the retelling of this story is that Monica did not tell her story willingly.
She was betrayed by Linda Tripp, was threatened into cooperating with the investigation, was leg to court in leg-irons to give her side of the story as a hostile witness.
Ken Starr made her the star witness / evidence in his vendetta against the Clintons who simultaneously released their PR attack dogs to paint her as a sex-crazed stalker who wouldn’t leave him alone in order to save his skin/ career.
And after they had all moved on, Monica was left behind with a scarlet letter that no one allows her to forget about her. And her sexual history is invoked in order to reinforce that scarlet letter.
“Sure she was 24, but she was naive and he was her boss”
Oh, spare me the 24 & naive bit.
No I don’t agree. By 24 I had more world knowledge and understanding of power dynamics between men and women than I should have had. 24 is just a number of years someone has been physically alive. It has nothing whatsoever to do with life experience. Monica was more adult than most women her age.
He was way wrong but he is a far cry from 45 or Harvey or Cosby.
She was 22 when it started (22 and four months, to be exact)
Still not a baby. As wrong as he was, she had a hand in the decisions.
Monica Lewinsky was not sexually harassed. Yes, there was a power imbalance in their relationship and he should have not gotten involved with her but she was a willing participant and this has nothing to do with #MeToo. The people who traumatized Monica Lewinsky are named Lindsey Graham and Asa Hutchinson, Jim Sensenbrenner and Bob Barr.
Linda Tripp.
Ken Starr was looking everywhere and getting no where until Linda Tripp served up Monica on a platter.
Took the words right out of my mouth, thank you.
There are VERY SPECIAL PLACES in hell for both Ken Starr and Linda Tripp, IMO.
Esmom: Linda Tripp is the evil MVP of this saga. She should be apologising to Monica.
Truth. She doesn’t get nearly the criticism she should.
Yes,
I think the Clinton allies threw her under the bus after the affair was revealed, and that deserves apologies, but Monica had a history of affairs with married men, and she initiated the affair with Clinton. So, I don’t believe he should apologize to her for the affair.
He should apologise to her for throwing her under the bus in the attempt to save his own skin.
‘…….. i never had a relationship with that woman…..Miss Lewinsky…’ on worldwide tv news. Imagine the shame for Monica of that one statement.
It led to worldwide slut-shaming of Monica. Something that continues today including comments like yours that invoke her sexual history to justify the slut-shaming.
multiple women accused clinton of sexual assault.
I do think it’s worth re-examining the whole Lewinsky scandal in light of #metoo. There was a huge power imbalance there – such that you have to wonder how consensual the relationship actually could be. That doesn’t mean it was rape, but I think it’s worth talking about.
That said, it is very different from what Weinstein, Lauer and others were doing, AND it was investigated. Publicly. For years. Resulting in impeachment. Costing millions and millions of dollars. Everyone knows what happened, and Clinton was investigated for his behavior and actions, which is part of what we want out of MeToo, right? For the perpetrators to be held accountable? And he was, in many ways. Maybe not how some would have preferred it, but that mark of impeachment will never go away.
So, while we can and should discuss the issue of consent and power imbalance, I also think its important to bear in mind the differences between what happened between Clinton and Lewinsky and what happened between Weinstein and his victims, or Trump and his victims.
That said, Clinton needs a better answer to questions about it.
Please, everyone re-read the Starr report! Yes, there was a power imbalance. But Monica initiated the relationship. It was not rape. This is a woman who already had relationships with married men. She knew what she was doing.
Agreed. I also think room needs to be left for the fact that there being a power imbalance between two adults does not automatically mean that sex between them can’t be consensual. A person can actively and sometimes even specifically want to fuck or date someone who’s considered ‘above their station’ in life. That doesn’t necessarily mean the politician/emperor/king/queen/pop star/ rapper/country-singer/heiress/rock star/actress/supermodel/duke was abusing them when they took them up on their offer. What has to be looked at is whether or not the power was used to blackmail in some way.
Absolutely agree! Power itself is not an abuse.
She was showing the man her thong! How is that a power imbalance? When the female is aggressively pursuing the male in power, how can we take away her agency and knowledge to know what SHE wants. She wanted him. She was never forced at all. Monica was naive. Not a gullible ingenue.
I think everyone agrees with that. Point remains that this was the workplace and he was in the supervisory role. The appropriate response would be to write her up or reassign her or whatever. He didn’t do that. He did the exact opposite of that. And that’s on him and he looks worse imo because of his power and responsibility in the situation. I have cases come through my office all the time that are violations of the sexual harassment policy. And both parties will swear up and down it was consensual but that’s not really the point of the policy. The point of the policy is forbidding relationships between supervisors and subordinates due to inherent power differentials. And the one in the supervisory position always gets in more trouble because the legal and ethical assumption is they should have known. I’m honestly kind of surprised so many people miss this aspect of this re: Bill and Monica. They were at work. It was inappropriate. He has he opportunity to shut it down and didn’t.
The thing is, Bill has victimized many women. But he’s only ever really asked about Monica. Whatever. I agree with the tone and content of this post; asking these questions is worthwhile.
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. He has many rape and sexual assault allegations that just get ignored, especially by us Democrats who don’t want to admit to our hypocrisy as we turned a blind eye to all of his sketchiness although we accuse Deporables of turning a blind eye to guys like Trump and Moore. I saw it with Franken too, where Democrats were suddenly going all conspiracy theorist on his accusers or dismissing the assault as “not that bad”. I definitely think we all need to be introspective and learn from the #MeToo movement and realize it applies to our political heroes too.
dont forget that trump and clinton are good friends who play golf together.
that is a republican talking point that unfortunately has been taken as truth by the left… and i am very very confused. if there was a slither of a chance in heaven and hell that any of those allegations were true, gop brigade et al would have found it. they were literally NOT true; provably, and that is why they got no where. i could not believe that during the elections perfectly intelligent people were spewing right wing conspiracy theories about these allegations. i guess you can believe whatever a woman says whenever regardless of evidence or decades of investigations but i refuse to ride that band wagon. see where it got dunham. take it seriously but definitely don’t believe everything you read or hear.
i’m not clinton fan but i am finding myself defending him cause everyone seems to have selective memories. it’s really frustrating cause i really want to go back to shi$$ing on his republican lite arse.
oh and he is really super charismatic and nice in person. like not awful at all. nice people have vices and some of them deplorable. i think that is something we need to acknowledge so that even the nice guys who really do respect women but do crappy stuff can question themselves too.
If Linda Tripp had not served up Monica to the GOP/Ken Starr/etc, this particular relationship would never come to light.
Despite years of investigations, Ken Starr couldn’t pin anything on Clinton. He literally had no case. Then Linda Tripp called him and told him about Monica. They worked together to extract evidence from Monica, and went as far as kidnapping her off a street to threaten her into compliance. People often forget that Monica was a hostile witness in this case despite all the threats made to get her to testify.
And for her trouble, she was made the star witness of Ken’s ridiculous investigation, and Clinton very publicly disavowed her and set his PR attack dogs on her to paint her as a stalker who wouldn’t leave him alone.
The women Clinton victimised don’t have a Linda Tripp in their lives to help them keep proof of what happened to them, but they have been consistent in their accusations since the 80s.
The only aspect of Monica’s story that touches upon the #metoo/TimesUp movements is the shame part of these incidents. The relationship may have been consensual, but because of the actions of men locked in a battle to the death, she was shamed and offered up to be ruined for the rest of her life.
Even now, when we should know better, the first instinct of people is to slut-shame her, bring up her sexual history in order to diminish her.
And all the while no one remembers that she didn’t offer up her story. She was threatened into doing so. She was a hostile witness, matched to the witness stand in leg irons like a common criminal.
That scarlet letter shines brightly on her chest.
This is what I’ve heard too- that Bill Clinton has actually victimized some women beyond just cheating. There are conflicting articles about it though- I’ll have to look more deeply into it again. But the fact that it’s the affair with Monica Lewinsky that gets brought up instead of actual allegations of harassment or abuse against him is a bit of a problem. Much like casting couch gossip blurs lines and makes it harder to see actual sex crimes and harassment that are going on, the discussion about Bill’s cheating kind of gets blended with the harassment and abuse allegations.
Yes. Let’s talk about his real victims here. They were never given a chance to truly be credible.
Please. They were ALL given a chance to be “credible”. Fact remains they are not credible allegations. Period. What kind of internet sites are you frequentling that are still regurgitating these alleged “assaults” long after they have been discredited. I bet they still have Hillary dying from some mysterious ailment, killing people and selling uranium to Russia. ROTFL.
I’ve heard that too. Which is why I imagine he’s not overly eager for people to forget about Monica because that was actually a consensual affair. We can debate about the fallout forever, but the fact remains that Monica was not victimized as far as the affair went. I have my own opinions about what happened afterwards, but that’s beside the point. He doesn’t really want to talk about it, but as long as everyone immediately thinks of Monica and her openly admitted pursuit of him, he’s in a much safer position in regards to any true abuse/harassment/victimization he’s perpetrated on other women.
Have people forgotten, the Lewinsky scandal was NOT the only scandal Clinton had with women. Let’s not erase his past because we hate the present state of things.
I could care less about someone’s political affiliation; sexual harassment and sexual assault is wrong. Period. Clinton and Trump are both guilty, IMO. Both are predators who have used and abused their positions of power. They are just two egregious examples, however, there are uncounted numbers of sexual predators out there. The #MeToo movement has burst the dam and women are now feeling more confident about coming forward, although many will still suffer reprisals. But we’re off to a good start.
I personally think that Monica Lewinsky was treated horribly and still is shamed because of that, and Clinton never had to deal with the level of shaming that she did, and that is what always bothered me. Yes, she was an adult, but c’mon, only like 21 or 22! And he was the POTUS! Her life was irrevocably changed by that incident, and his wasn’t, and that is what bothers me.
Agree Manda. If I hadn’t lived through the Clinton era (yeah, I voted for him) reading many of the comments I’d think we were still in the days of “He couldn’t help himself because of the way she came on to him/acted/dressed/spoke…”
I really don’t think Bill’s behavior then was defensible. And remember “depends on what the meaning of the word is is” and endless debates about whether oral sex was sex or more like a handshake or at most heavy “petting.” Ugh. I thought his response during the current interview was feeble. Plus, ML was only 21 when she began her internship…she was 24 when the relationship came to light.
Bill Clinton is a dog , but we already know this so talking about it just fuels the narrative that the Clintons are somehow more important than everyone actually participating in politics today. Meanwhile, Trump’s on twitter talking about how the Russia witchhunt is heading into the midterms. He Is setting up an argument to cancel them. It’s happening right before our eye. And he is succeeding because of this whataboutism with people like the Clintons. We need to stop feeding the trolls.
I saw bits and pieces of the interview this morning and he was really defensive and blindsided. I loved it! He thought he was just going to be interviewed about the book he just wrote with James Patterson. Boy was he wrong!! I am sure it made James Patterson a little nervous to be sitting there listening to all of it.
What is wrong with him? I can not make out the half the stuff he says, he seems not to miss his teeth, yet that sounded strange as hell. And I could hardly contain my laugh, James Patterson looks like he is about to shit his pants from whatever Bill was saying.
Didn’t watch the clip. But honestly, I think Monica Lewinsky WAS a #MeToo – not so much by Clinton as from what I understand it was consensual, but after. The way the world and the press treated her after the fact WAS #MeToo. Her looks, her weight, everything about her was mocked and, at such a young age, I can imagine that was horrifying for her. And it was a very classic example of how women are treated versus how men are treated.
The Republican party and Press are the ones who need to apologize to her.
Did I say they didn’t? Nowhere in my statement did I say Bill Clinton needed to apologize. (His ‘that woman’ comment was pretty fkn rude though. But otherwise, nobody’s suggesting her raped her. The me too thing started after.
Actually, Shannon, many of Trump’s supporters insist that Clinton raped Lewinsky.
Wow! I was agreeing with your statement. No one was accusing you of anything.
I agree. What happened to her afterwards was horrifying. The actual affair wasn’t all that remarkable but how she was treated afterwards by everybody and every news outlet was nothing short of abuse.
Bill Clinton can afford the best PR. He needs to get some canned statements ready asap, that respectfully demonstrate his understanding of the importance of Metoo. He needs to stop acting surprised people ask this question. I say this as a big fan of his.
Agree. I voted for Clinton both elections but I could never like him because he was/is a dissembler, especially regarding his numerous affairs. Also can’t stand his Bubba personality.
He’s also very smart and should have prepped long ago for these types of questions.
Honestly, from a sincerity standpoint, it may actually be better to catch them unawares with those kind of questions. It throws them off their game so they can’t rely on prepared statements and practiced answers to respond, which will inevitably reveal more about their character in the process.
This is a test.
And we’re surprised because . . . ?!
Eh, these were two adults who made choices and got caught. The press and Kenneth Starr are the ones that dragged this out. To use this through the eyes of the current movement, it’s an unpopular opinion, but it falls under revisionist history. Call Clinton a dog or whatever, but again, these were two adults who made choices.
It’s so hard to get into this, and yet, so hard to avoid it.
Kathleen Wiley perjured herself. Starr almost prosecuted her for it, but that would have ruined the narrative so she got off. She was a total money grab.
Now, Broderick has always been the more interesting case. (Wiley is a straight up money grubbing liar who invented her entire story). At some points she was almost believable. UNTIL, she changed her story and claimed Hillary threatened her. This was after for years claiming Hillary had never done or said anything to her. Also, she testified under oath that Clinton did not rape her. So what do you do with that?
Paula Jones? Possible metoo case, I don’t know. Here is the problem, you have known and exposed liars who were PAID by the right wing, and yes there really was a vast right wing conspiracy folks.
What I know for a fact: Bill is a cheater and a womanizer. Women who claimed he assaulted them are known liars who were paid cash by gop donors.
Everything else is very foggy and it’s foggy be because of the FACTS I posted above.
There is a clear power imbalance perpetuated by the patriarchal system (even when both parties are above the age of legal consent)
When we will teach girls openly, clearly and loudly that any guy in position of power over them (boss, teacher, president, the older guy who buys them drinks at the bar, whatever) are into them because they re easy prey and naive.
AND
When we will shame openly, clearly and loudly men in position of power who use that to woo their intern, their daughter’s best friend, their students, because they should behave with better moral standards, especially at work.
Then, we can say they both had full agency.
Are you kidding me? Try to have some balance. this is the single greatest abuse of executive power for sex in our history. The PRESIDENT of the US preyed on an intern. He shoved a cigar up her pussy. Why are you apologizing for Slick Willy?
This has nothing to do with Kenneth Starr.
@neak – yes, I’m afraid I agree. And it’s not only the imbalance of power, but how he never thought twice about the fact that this was the home he shared with his wife and daughter, whom he exposed to incredible public humiliation. Then there was the impact it may have had on the election, where a few more votes in some places and we would have had Gore instead of Dubya.
And last, the insult to me, the voter, to whom the WH in some sense also belongs – did it have to be in the effing Oval Office? Couldn’t he have met her in a motel or bought her a little condo or something? Did he have to insult his family AND the voter (that would be me, a two-time Bill Clinton voter!) by doing it in such a symbolic space?!
I’ve never forgiven him, never. I wish Hillary had thrown his ties and shirts out onto the WH lawn from the second-floor windows.
“She was an adult, she made a series of choices, and she was victimized… ”
That sounds eerily similar to the same scum attempting to defend Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, etc.
Bill Clinton was NOT impeached.
Clinton WAS impeached. He is one of two US presidents to be successfully impeached. The other is Andrew Johnson. Both men were later acquitted by the Senate after trials. But acquittal doesn’t mean the impeachment never happened just like acquittal on a criminal charge doesn’t mean the charge was never brought. So impeachment is part of Clinton’s record and will forever be in the history books. I think sometimes people think impeachment means removal from office. It doesn’t but that misunderstanding may cause lots of additional confusion.
I don’t think we need to rehash what happened to Monica Lewinsky. She was an adult and it was consensual. However, we should take a look again at what happened with Juanita Broaddrick, who has accused him of rape; and, we should acknowledge that there are several women who have accused him of sexual harassment.
I think that because he was a widely popular president and the economy was so great during his presidency, democrats ignored what he did for years. He got a free pass and he didn’t deserve it. That’s our fault. I now find myself looking back and feeling guilty for disregarding his alleged past history of sexual assault and sexual harassment. I would dismiss anyone who talked about it. In his case, the Republicans are correct. We are hypocrites. Bill Clinton still has a lot to answer for. If anyone here has not watched the old Juanita Broaddrick interview in which she discusses the rape, you should watch it. You can google it. I believe she is telling the truth.