Weeks ago, we talked about the problematic Christmas song “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” and how it’s being banned from some radio stations during this Christmas season. Can we all agree that lyrically, this song is a mess and it belongs to a different time? We probably can’t agree on that, actually. I was surprised by the strong reactions for and against the song on this blog and elsewhere. But it’s a big conversation this holiday season – should the song be banned from radio? Are people overreacting to a song? Should crotchety older ladies come out and tell us that if we ban the song, we’re banning old-fashioned seduction? That’s what happened – Joan Collins has surprisingly strong feelings about “Baby It’s Cold Outside.”
Joan Collins doesn’t agree with people who find popular Christmas song “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” controversial. The 85-year-old actress appeared on Good Morning Britain on Monday where she commented on the recent controversy surrounding the classic tune.
“What’s going to happen to seduction is you are not going to be allowed anymore,” Jones said, according to ITV. “Is someone going to have to ask permission of the parents before they can kiss a girl? It’s absolutely becoming out of control. It seems to have happened in the last two years. It seems to get worse and worse.”
Over the last several years, and particularly in the era of the #MeToo movement, many have called the song “date-rapey” in reference to the lyrics “Say, what’s in this drink?” The song details a back-and-forth, traditionally between a man and a woman, where the man tries to convince a woman to stay the night despite her continued protests, saying, “The answer is no.”
But Collins says she sees it as a “sweet” song. “It’s gentle, kind, funny, tuneful. How dare they,” the actress added.
Radio stations in Cleveland and Denver have banned the song for the holiday season. In Canada, CBC Radio announced last week that it would join two other broadcasters in the country — Rogers Media and Bell Media — in keeping the song off their holiday playlists. Despite the bans, several versions of the song surged in sales and streaming and continued to draw airplay on the radio in the latest tracking week, according to Nielsen Music.
“Is someone going to have to ask permission of the parents before they can kiss a girl?” Do people realize that you SHOULD ask for permission/consent before you do anything to anyone? It’s not about asking the parents – it’s about asking “are you into this?” and RESPECTING THE ANSWER. If he or she says “no” – which the woman in the song says in a million different ways – then that should be respected. Seduction and consent are not mutually exclusive, and seduction isn’t some kind of coded word for rape, assault or non-consensual whatever.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I’d always assumed that the song was about a woman who wanted to stay, but knew that her nosy, uptight neighbours would have called her a loose-moralled strumpet.
I always thought that too, I thought the line “Say, what’s in this drink?” was a wink/nudge to the audience that the “good girl” could stay out late and have a defence that her actions were not her fault but the drink.
A good write up on the song in context of the time is here:
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
Agreed. She wants to stay, but fears it will hurt her reputation – because it was written in the 30s when “good girls” just didn’t do that sort of thing. He’s trying to give her an excuse. I also think she wants him to “woo” her and work a bit for it. Their singing together at the end indicates they are in harmony, not conflict.
I get why this song is controversial and I appreciate the discussion, but after reading the various viewpoints and listening to the song (again and again and again), I think it’s ok. I don’t think I’m selling out my feminist credentials by listening to it.
Same.
Yes, I agree as well. She says she wants to stay
In what part of the lyrics do you hear her say that she wants to stay?
I find it troubling the way most people just gloss over the fact that she says “I simply must go” or “the answer is no” as if those aren’t important because they imagine her saying yes or they think she would say it if she didn’t have gossipy neighbours. We still live in a world where a woman explicitly saying “no” isn’t good enough.
I thought i remembered there was a part where she said, i wish i could stay.
Yes I too think she’s passive aggressively saying she does want to stay.
Add that I also hate this song either way.
LOL, yes! The tune, style, and lyrics always grated on my nerves. I wish it would fade into well-deserved obscurity like so much other decades-old music. Alas, this controversy keeps it alive and playing.
That is 100% what it is about and what is happening in the song
Bingo. But we are not allowed nice things anymore.
You can still listen to the song. It’s out there on all kinds of platforms. Just because 1 or 2 radio stations don’t play it doesn’t mean it’s really “gone”. It’s the Christmas miracle of technology!
Before we ban this song, what about the rap music out there degrading women? Can we ban it too? Are we still living in a free country, or should we just go ahead and ban everything we don’t like?
“Are we still living in a free country”
Please tell me you’re kidding! TWO radio stations decided they didn’t want it on their song lists. Thousands of other stations still play it. It can be streamed and downloaded and viewed on YouTube in thousands of versions.
Many radio stations don’t play rap. They don’t have to, just as not all stations have to play this song.
The government isn’t preventing people from hearing the song. This has no impact on our freedom.
Ugh. Thank you, Tiffany.
The song is still available (unfortunately) for everyone to listen to if they want to. No need to freak the eff out.
Keep fighting the good fight, Tiffany. Also your Christmas Miracle comment above made me snort-laugh.
Thanks, BabyJane! 😀
That IS what it’s about! Geez.
Loose-moralled Stumpet is the name of my new band, DIBS!!!!
Another “PC culture is taking too far!” take.
Wasn’t there a radio station that played this all day to spite people?
And by PC people are you referring to the ones acting like the world’s going to end because two radio stations decided not to play the song even though thousands of other radio stations are still playing it and as are thousands of stores?
The same PC people who in 2015 or 2016 were outrage that there was Black Santa and labeled it a war on Christmas?
Joan looks phenomenal. I hope she’s living her best life.
Oh…she IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shes does, I would love even a fraction of her glamour, oh and that toy bulldog in a hat in the bottom picture.
I love Joan. I need her to stick to just being fabulous.
Look if she really wanted to leave she’d have left. She’s old school flirting her ass off. She’s not backing away. She’s facing him, swaying with him and prolonging the inevitable. Some women still like a little cat and mouse before stripping naked and taking a dude down. Besides, there’d be no song if she said, “I’m leaving. Goodbye.” Or, “You’re right, it’s cold and I’m horny let’s go.”
😂
Agree. I don’t think this song is controversial at all.
“You’re right, it’s cold and I’m horny let’s go.” sounds like a great song, actually
Yes I think Michael Buble will have this song on his new Christmas album 🎶cold an horny let’s go 🎶🎶
I feel like I shouldn’t bother poking here but I’m just too curious…
If a woman these days goes to a man’s house and he ends up date raping her, is you’re usual reaction to say, “Hey, if she really wanted to leave, she would have left.”?
You make a very thoughtful point,and No woman should ever be blamed for being raped,I think this post has taken a lighter hearted tone than what people would usually take,because it’s about an old lady’s opinion on an old song.
I think over discussing a song can make people cringe,and that there are real people with real stories to tell and real lives that have been harmed from sexual harassment ,assault ,rape,and those stories are where we should place our time and effort.
Certainly not! Painting everything with the same brush muddies the picture. Isn’t that what makes us angry in the first place?
Good, but I don’t understand why you’re not affording the same respect to the woman in the song. She had a wonderful time but she still says no when he wants her to stay. Just because she had a great date doesn’t mean she wants to have sex with him and, regardless of the excuses she gives him to convince him to just let her go home already, “no means no”.
God, the arguments about this are worse than the actual “controversy”. And I’m really sick of older women telling us that this metoo movement is not needed.
This is a very important distinction you bring up. The movement is long overdue. We’ve always needed it. And I’m sick of mansplaining and mature women scoffing at younger women over even the very discussion of problematic behavior.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate just a bit, and say these older women, some of the older women that is, appear to place themselves above the #metoo fray because they’ve lived most their life and to jump in with arms wide open could equate to a psychological dismissal of everything they’ve ever said or done or experienced. It’s showing their weaknesses actually, but they don’t see it that way.
The thing is – a lot of these older women would have loved this kind of thing if it happened during their youth. If someone started smacking down all the creeps that treated them like garbage. The problem is that they’ve spent SO much of their lives being told that they don’t matter, that they’re less than men, that they deserve whatever happens to them. It’s hard to come back from 60-70+ years of extremely sexist indoctrination. So there’s a certain amount of bitterness involved, I think, when they look at the women who are putting their foot down because THEY had to put up with garbage behavior from men for so long. It’s kind of like hazing. Everyone hates hazing when it’s happening to them… but there’s so many people who will then haze the next group of people because THEY had to put up with it, and THEY turned out ‘okay’ despite it.
Exactly Erinn. A lifetime of having to work things out in one’s head and tossing in untold layers of variables, I understand different reactions to what’s now unfolding. I do, however, wish that those older women would be self aware enough to be more embracing, tolerant and understanding. But being staunch could be part of what made them who they are. Growing up without everything that’s available to women now was a much more difficult journey. More alone and isolated in thoughts and experiences. Many have held these reactions and belief systems in place for so long, it might be impossible to see things any other way.
“It’s hard to come back from 60-70+ years of extremely sexist indoctrination. So there’s a certain amount of bitterness involved, I think, when they look at the women who are putting their foot down because THEY had to put up with garbage behavior…. for so long. It’s kind of like hazing. Everyone hates hazing when it’s happening to them… but there’s so many people who will then haze the next group of people because THEY had to put up with it, and THEY turned out ‘okay’ despite it.
Yes, yes yes! I think some of that is kind of at play when you see women like Susan Brownmiller spew antifeminist rape apologist drivel. Another part of that problem is the Our Ancestors Had It Worse/ Dear Muslimah fallacy, that older men and women sometimes use to silence younger women from calling out misogyny. Basically it asks us to shut up and be grateful for every violent thing that hasn’t happened to us personally. It’s ok for us to fight against anti-woman policies, rulings, and violence with our votes, volunteering, marching, and donations, but outside of that we’re supposed to STFU about the dehumanizing attitudes, values, and language that leads up to those things so as not to appear ‘ungrateful’ or ‘uppity’. It’s not always just an older person thing. Sometimes younger people can be guilty of it too, although usually it comes from listening to older people who said it first- often people we trust, respect, or see as good.
Yes. That. FFS, Joan.
Yeah older women need to keep their noses out of feminism. They have no right to join the discussion. They have had their day and did nothing, they should stay quiet, like they always have done. I mean your days of being involved in politics should be over at retirement age anyway. Old women should just fade away shouldn’t they? Thank heavens feminism was discovered in 2016!
No kidding Kurtz! JFC, I should throw my dried up old self off a bridge.
Yeah, they had nothing to do with freedom and equality for women. Just being here, openly discussing a stupid ass song is wholly attributed to young minds. In fact it’s quite miraculous they came up with the silly notions of careers, opinions and Independence. Imagine the young, strong minds having to be grateful roads were paved for them to say, do and behave in any matter of their choice. Perspective is everything or it’s nothing.
Right on Kurtz! What would women in their 70s and 80s know about feminism? The very thought of it, ha! 😉
(But folks….bear in mind Joanie’s credentials here. She’s a famously conservative woman, for all her occasional humorous remarks and famed public love life. Not exactly the voice of a generation)
I know what you mean. It’s not really a big deal to me if someone else sees it either as a harmless song about a woman feeling pressure to deny herself what she really wants due to patriarchal standards of respectability or as a problematic song about a guy pushing his own agenda. It can be looked at either way. But it’s always irritating when someone starts up the “Me Too Has Gone 2 far! Romance will die! What r menz 2 do!” spiel.
Agreed.
it’s not true that you ask for permission every time before you kiss somebody. all you need is to have common sense. normal people feel when somebody is into it and when they are not. only creeps go and kiss somebody who they feel isn’t about to respond. that’s super disrespectful and a sign of a douche. so, just respect the dynamics of the relationship. and if you’re clueless and kiss somebody that doesn’t want that then when they push you away, back off for good. in but you can’t make relationships so sterile and super controlled like some suggest. violence is one thing and flirting, trying to win somebody’s love or attraction is another. rape and sexual harassment are terrible crimes and should be punished severely. and shouldn’t be trivialized by making seduction taboo or getting rid of harmless songs. that song is about a play between a man and a woman. nobody is being forced to do anything.
I really think things like that desensitize people when it comes to real violence. if everything is violence then nothing really is.
Respectfully, that is horseshit. Plenty of women (and I suspect men as well) go along with a kiss because they don’t want to offend the other person or hurt their feelings. Would I do that now? No way. But I’m almost 40. When I was in my twenties I was a lot less assertive.
And there are PLENTY of guys who are clueless about social queues or simply feel pressure to initiate a kiss, even if the timing isn’t right or they’re not fully into it. There are a LOT of mixed messages that both men (be aggressive) and women (be submissive) are sent when it comes to sex.
I’ve made out with…..MANY dudes lol and I’d be lying if I said I was into it every time.
Is it my fault for not standing up for myself? To some degree, sure. But we live in a society that tells young women that if a dude pays for dinner, we should at least make out with him. That, and it’s not always easy to shove a guy away from you when he’s holding your face and has his lips pressed against yours. It’s awkward AF and not always safe, depending on the circumstances.
We also live in a society that tells men that if a woman is smiling and not running away mid-date that she’s probably down for a kiss. Not always true.
So it’s not always as easy and black and white as you describe it.
Wait. What? This is a thing? I am not making out with ANYONE if I’m not into it. And I’m sure this will be blamed on a man somehow when it was really a CHOICE made by the female. My parents raised me to be a strong independent woman and to value myself. Like wow….get some self esteem and self confidence. You can’t blame that on the man.
I suspect manufactured controversy here. Holiday version of the great Tide Pod epidemic.
I totally agree, Trillion. It’s like a Trump style controversy. It’s all based on “some people are saying”…but in the big picture, not that many people care strongly about this. 2 radio stations out of thousands “banned” the song (such hyperbole, it’s just not on the holiday playlist).
My friends and I have always thought this song was effing creepy.
But I find the focus on it takes away from the actual conversation about consent.
The woman in the song is not saying no in a million different ways.
Check the tone of voice, there is such a thing as interpretation
Isn’t this a new iteration of the so-called War on Christmas only this time it’s women not Jews accused of being “over sensitive?” And a song instead of store greetings?
What’s it gonna be next year, folks? Cause it seems like Fox needs new gripes every year. .that’s it’s own special Christmas spirit. Find a way to spread a false sense of persecution so people feel justified in attacking others.
I totally agree, Who are these people!
Absolutely. So dumb.
Joan Collins thinks that #metoo women should just get over it.
She believes in men’s right to ‘flirt’. Women should be flattered instead of complaining.
Life without flirtation would be very sad!
Not really.
I mean, mutual flirtation sure but I’ve had enough one-sided flirtations to last a lifetime and trust me, it’s not fun or cool. It’s actually very annoying and disrespectful to ignore people’s personal boundaries.
She definitely thinks that. Betty White is so much more hip and she’s 10 years older.
I see some actors complaining about me too movement. About being worried they will be called out. It’s very simple. You don’t rape, harass or abuse anyone. If they don’t know where the line not to cross is? Then that in itself is very problematic.
Count me in the category I’d thise who think this song brouhaha is beyond silly, Way to take a classic Christmas song and totally eff it up ! (Thank god I have it on CD, I’d never hear it again otherwise). And has been said by many, there are plenty of songs out there that depict and romanticize guns, and violence and domestic abuse,,,,but are getting a pass because of their genre. I call bullshit.
And those songs aren’t played on a ‘g’ rated radio station. And in what freaking world do you live in that having it on CD is the only way for you to hear it? Live performances, youtube, apple music, spotify, google music, etc etc. It’s everywhere – and the vast vast majority of radio stations are still playing it.
Maybe, just maybe, the people who are up in arms at the idea of a song they like going away are making a bigger deal out of it and weaponizing this argument than the people who were like “wow, this songs kind of sketchy”.
Ugh. I can’t wait for this ridiculous for/against “Baby, it’s cold outside” campaign to disappear.
December 26th! 1 more week.
I hate Santa Baby. Blech.
Oddly enough, I don’t recall Baby it’s cold outside until the movie Elf. I’m kinda meh. If you don’t like it, don’t listen to it I guess? There are so many worse songs…don’t get me started.
Sorry, never liked the lyrics and never will.
Still a man trying to convince a woman to ignore her assessment of social norms for his benefit. Still perpetuates the idea that women need to be ‘convinced’ and this is a normal part of sexual scripts.
There’s so much problematic media though, this is fairly low on the list.
Ultimately, I agree with you. No means no, regardless of the true reasons behind it. An individual woman should not be scapegoated, gaslighted, silenced, or shamed for her decision about sex her body, even if that decision happens to go along with patriarchal social norms.
But within the feminist movement, there might need to be some discussions about whether or not a woman who caves to respectability politics- who in any way fearfully tries to make sure she isn’t seen as a ho- is harming other women, sending the message that we as women are less than and that proving we’re not thots is our worth, and ultimately making a misogynistic choice.
I’ve seen multiple friends on FB (all men, shocker) whining about how the controversy is ridiculous and “if you’re that offended by a song, wow”. A) it has ALWAYS felt date-rapey to me. B) I don’t think anyone is saying THIS SONG IS DEF ABOUT ACQUAINTANCE RAPE. It’s more like the lyrics just feel gross to some people and could be taken differently, and reflect the experiences some have had where their “no” wasn’t respected. I think these stations are saying “we don’t feel it’s necessary to trigger people for a Christmas song”, not “this is offensive and no one should play it”. Idk. But I’m glad I’m not hearing it constantly!
I loathe the thinking that if something doesn’t offend ME, NO ONE is allowed to find it offensive.
Right. People have different sensibilities and it’s not anyone’s place to tell someone what they are allowed to be triggered by. The song doesn’t really offend me personally, but reading the lyrics I can absolutely see how people would interpret it as rape-y. My personal reason for supporting a ban is because I think it’s an annoying-ass song lol.
There are many older songs from the 70s that I find harder to truly enjoy as I get older. Mungo Jerry’s “In The Summertime” and Steppenwolf’s “Magic Carpet Ride” (technically ’69) come to mind. I still listen to them because they’re memories from my childhood but I DO cringe at some of the lyrics. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being sensitive to what some of us perceive as problematic lyrics.
*shrugs*
The problem with the song isn’t about consent, it’s about slut shaming.
I totally agree! And haven’t seen anyone else say this in terms of the argument. The real issue is “the neighbors might think,” etc. It’s that era of society’s judgment of her and what she does with her body- which still exists today, albeit to a lesser degree I think. The woman sings “I really must go,” not “I want to go,” ie it’s about conforming to social norms.
My mom loves the Dean Martin version and we’ve always listened to it together. Hell, my little sister would sing the male part when she was quite little because she had a fairly deep voice pre-tonsill removal.
And my single mom is very much a feminist.
She’s not any less so because she isn’t against this song.
Also I resent comments that older women don’t have a right to discuss feminism. It IS possible they respect and embrace certain tenets but don’t agree 100%.
@Chelsea
Bingo. ITA
Most women in their 70’s don’t seem to be on board for #MeToo at all, it’s quite appalling. I volunteer with a 70-something woman who’s a radical liberal in many ways (voting for most democrats is selling out because they are war mongers and corrupt too. Sigh), but she is downright anti-woman when it comes to #MeToo. We’re all just a bunch of crazy feminists who don’t like men, because, god forbid, we think it’s time for a sea change when it comes to the casual harassment, let alone sexual assault, inflicted on so many of us. And yep, she was getting really offended over people even discussing whether this song might be problematic (she’s also super offended over people calling out the cartoon Rudolph. I tried explaining to her that my brother and I have been talking for years about how everyone in that movie is an asshole, yet it’s still our favorite, but nuance doesn’t seem to go over for some people).
I am an older woman absolutely FOR the #metoo movement.
Stop over generalizing about older women and how they feel about me too. I was raped 3 times, once in my late teens and twice in my twenties by entitled white men and I finally wrote them all letters recently told them what bastards they are OK?? It sickens me that Kavanagh had 83 complaints against him dismissed.
Again, stop broad brushing older women. We get it – a lot of us – more than you think.
+1000. Me too.
Dismissing the generation who really made a difference to women’s lives, from (say) the mid-’60s through outright rampaging through the ’70s, is to show a very shallow grasp of feminism now.
But I hope this ageism isn’t widespread, and is just spoken of at length here because Dame Joan questions this movement.
Say it ain’t so!
I’ve been saying this was a Christmas date rape anthem for a few years now. I’m really surprised to see people on this site specifically defend it. I don’t care if the song gets banned or not because I just skip it when it comes on. It’s a gross song representing old fashion, sexist, gross values.
Oddly enough the version of this song that made me aware of how terrible it is was sung by Scarlett Johansson (I don’t remember who did the male part). It was slowed down, her voice was supposed to be like Billie Holiday (I think) and I payed attention to the lyrics. I told coworkers while it was playing that this all sounds like the stuff they tell college freshman to avoid so they don’t get raped at a party. All the old ladies in the office thought I was over reacting too. Whatevs.
Didn’t Mariah Carey and Tony Bennet sing this song together? And for all of you complaining about older women saying it’s no big deal and the #metoo movement going too far, those women fought in a war and marched for the right to vote among other things that we should thank our lucky stars for. I’m disgusted by some comments. Talk about ungrateful!
GOOD LORD.
I’m assuming you’re an older woman, and you’re taking this personally? That doesn’t mean that many of us have older women in our lives as family, or coworkers, or acquaintances who hold the incredibly damaging belief that me too is awful and that somehow this is all terribly mean to the strapping young men out there. And I’m sorry – “fought in a war and marched for the right to vote among other things” doesn’t give someone a pass for poor behavior. Doing something that benefited themselves as well is not some sort of altruistic behavior that gives them a lifelong pass on everything else. Nor does it mean that their opinion needs to take priority over the younger generation.
Not a single poster has said that ALL older women are a problem. Not a single person has said that older women don’t count, or that they’re crazy, or useless, or whatever other negative adjective you’re concerned about. But there IS a large number of older women who actively work against the younger feminists because it’s not how THEY did things. Times change, society progresses – and that’s just how it is. You can’t stomp your feet and complain about the younger generation doing things differently. Nor does being older and having positively contributed to society decades ago give someone a life long right to be an asshat to others.
No I’m not older. I just don’t see rape in this Christmas song. It’s ridiculous!
So I am concerned about about what I am reading in these comments giving this song a pass, simply because it was written in a different time, and it was meant to flirty and the woman was saying no, but she really means yes.
That is the problem, this song perpetuates rape culture. It normalizes the idea that women will say no when they really mean yes, and keeps women in an oppressed position. There is a saying, when men say no, that is an answer, when women say no, it is the beginning of a negotiation. This song and the defense of it, normalizes that.
Do I think the writer of this song was describing a date rape? no.
Do I think the writer of this song beautifully illustrated rape culture, toxic masculinity and slut shaming? Yes.
OMG!
I can see how the song could be interpreted both ways. Maybe Taylor or Arianna should record a new version with a guy from one of the boy bands and adjust some of the lyrics? Could be a smart career move. #YoureWelcome.
This is one of those situations where the phrase ‘ political correctness gone mad’ is apt.
How? Because two radio station decided not to play this song, while thousand others are still playing it.
Spare me your disingenuous questions. You know damn well how.
My argument isn’t for or against (though I have an opinion). It’s about what can of worms we might open by removing it. So many songs (including current) are totally anti-#metoo. As are so many movies and books. We have to be careful about entertainment pieces and potential censorship and real life scenarios.
Agreed. If you look hard enough, you’ll start to find everything offensive. If we want to get rid of problematic songs on the radio, there’s a long list of current songs that I’d be concerned about over a song from 30,40,50 years ago that’s hardly ever played.
Sounds excellent.
Time for some new stuff and new artists then.
For God’s sake, it is a song about two people wanting to get some. I find I Found Mommy Kissing Santa Claus way more disturbing.🙄
I don’t *love* this song but I have not, nor will I ever, think that “What’s in this drink?” means she thinks she’s been drugged. It refers to how strong it is, which I get can still be ‘date-rapey’ in the sense that he’s hoping to get her so out of it, she doesn’t know what she’s doing, but then I think we’re getting into a long reach. She’s HOPING the drink is strong so that she’ll have an excuse to stay – She is, not him.
The last few lines — “There’s bound to be talk tomorrow, at least there will be plenty implied” — make it clear to me that this is a flirtatious exchange that ends in her deciding to stay even though she’ll end up the talk of the town.