Kristin Davis stopped by Jada Pinkett Smith’s Red Table Talk, which I’m still shocked is a thing. Aren’t you surprised that Red Table Talk is still a thing? It is. And Jada keeps getting some interesting interviews, and I swear, every one of these episodes ends up making news. Kristin Davis has been pretty low-key since Sex and the City, and she seems to be focused on single-motherhood and occasional TV work. In 2011, Kristin adopted her daughter Gemma, and then last year, Kristin adopted a son, whose name has not been publicized. Both of Kristin’s children are African-American. That’s what the Red Table Talk conversation was about – white mothers raising black children, and how Kristin’s eyes were opened to the everyday racism black people experience. Some quotes from the interview:
Kristin wants to ensure her children “have access to the black community.” “Because my children are African American, I feel like it is my duty and my job to do as much research, as much work, build as many bridges as possible, because you are their community, and that is key, and that is so important.”
She was open to adopting black children: She didn’t really lean into her “deep” need to be a mother until she was 38. Then, she started the adoption process. “It seemed racist to be saying, ‘No, no, no, no, no,'” she explained of checking off a questionnaire, which asks prospective parents to check boxes of the race of child they’d like to adopt. A social worker then came to her house for an interview process that lasted days, asking her about how she’d raise a child with a different race than her own. After that, Davis took online courses to prepare her to adopt Gemma, who is black. “There were a lot of courses. One was just about hair…I know it’s a big thing, and I’m still learning. You can’t just send her off somewhere, or him off, to have his hair twisted or braided or whatever. You need to, just like you would your own child you gave birth to, learn what is best for their skin and their hair. And if you don’t, you will be judged harshly.”
Understanding white privilege: “You absolutely do not fully understand [white privilege beforehand]. There’s no doubt. There’s no way you could. Because you can understand that you live in white privilege, and that’s a theory, and you can see things. But it’s one thing to be watching it happening to other people, and it’s another thing when it’s your child. And you haven’t personally been through it. It’s a big issue, and it’s something that I think about every day and every night.”
Seeing her children experience racism: “It’s hard to put into words, really. I mean, there’s been so many things over the years. Gemma is seven now, but the first couple things happened when she was a baby and I’d be holding her in my arms, people would say to me, ‘Won’t she be a great basketball player?’ I just had to be like… This is a baby. How could you say that, without being just mortified? That’s when it began.”
Understanding institutionalized racism. She described how she hit a turning point when she noticed her daughter wasn’t being treated fairly on the playground of her mostly white school, and that she was told the school didn’t “see color.” “It was a very harsh moment of deep understanding. I don’t know how every person of color has gotten through this… I don’t understand how you could take this every day. I will never be black… and therefore I will never be able to say to Gemma, ‘I understand how you feel because this happened to me.’ That’s what’s painful and hard.”
I respect Kristin so much for talking about all of this, and for not being afraid of acknowledging her own white privilege. On one side, it’s sad that the only way most white people could actually understand their white privilege is when they see that it’s non-transferable, that their privilege isn’t a bubble that they could extend to their black or brown or mixed-race children. Kristin and Jada also talked about Jada’s own preconceived notions about white people parenting black children, and how her views on that have changed over time, and how Jada is worried about the conversations Kristin will need to have with her black son as he grows up too. These are difficult subjects and it’s great that Jada and Kristin can talk about them openly.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
While I believe every child deserves a home and black children are less likely to be adopted BECAUSE of their race, I do feel a bit of wariness when white people raise black children. I have seen it done well and I have seen it done horribly. And it can leave a black child feeling confused and alone or not in touch with the reality of how they are perceived in the world. A LOT of white parents think that if they simply drop their black child into predominantly white spaces they will be recognized as “one of their own”. And this works…until it doesn’t. And it’s usually the real world that introduces the child to the reality of being black. And they have no tools to deal with it because their white parents haven’t done their own work to understand it let alone help their kid to understand it.
That being said, it’s great that Kristen is being honest about her own limitations and also doing the work to make sure her children grow up understanding themselves. I sincerely hope that she has brought other black people into their lives so that they can see themselves reflected in people around them .
To be fair , a lot of children are raised quite horribly by their own parents, of all races. So what you see might not be statistically significant !
Your comment is a weak version of “not all white people”.
This not all white people sauce is too much. Sometimes it’s better to listen more when POC are speaking about their experiences.
Sorry. It’s just the way I look at things; is it really a problem statistically?
I can see why her opinion and advice is important and should certainly be spread. I actually didn’t mean to negate the informations she presented.
@Ouiokay: stepping in as a transracial adoptee myself, there is a specific history of transracial and/or international adoptees being abused and even murdered by their adoptive parents. Look up the Reuter’s article on rehoming, and remember these names: Hana Williams, Hyunsu O’Callaghan, Asunta Fong Yang, the Hart children, Adam Crapser, and others. We have been beaten, abused, deported, and killed by our parents. Please educate yourself on the ways transracial adoptees are often (mis)treated in this country especially by a racist society that sees us as lesser, and understand why some are hesitant to see children of color raised by whites.
@Rie and the entire family of black children that were adopted by a white woman who killed all of them by driving her car off a cliff.
@ValiantlyVarnished-
Those were the Hart children .😭
I see your point, and I’m conflicted too. It seems the best option would be parents of the same racial background. However, we don’t always get the best option. Still I do feel a parent who wants to be a parent is better than no parent, a lot of foster care or other group options. I am actually impressed that some of these cultural issues are being stressed to the adoptive parent. Not too long ago that wouldn’t have been the case. It doesn’t seem so in Kristen’s case, but I do worry that the counseling and investigation of the adoptive parent may be given the ole white wash cause the prospective parents are now white, and this could cause some really sad outcomes. Still I think given the right circumstance this could work well. What we really need to understand is the process needs to be improved to help children find great adoptive families.
As far as white’s understanding our white privilege and racism. You can see it and empathize, but when it’s not someone close to you or yourself you won’t really get it. Still the more we talk about it and recognize it and get all to empathize the more we can make it better and disappear.
Good loving adoptive parents and good living birth parents. I am here for all of that.
as an african american woman adopted by two white jewish people , and having people telling me my whole life+ fellow siblings how “adoption should go ” i just need everyone to realize.. its alll situational and leave it at that.. calling it the inevitable for adopted white folks to “appropriate/ or have unaware privilege feelings towards their kids…. hurts more than helps and gives more expectations/fears then acceptance. The only time ive felt insecure about being adopted by white people is when people tell me how i need to feel about it…again its situational
I am sorry, but that first comment makes me feel rather uncomfortable because it implies the same logic people use when opposing adoption for gay couples (just remember that in good chunk of the world homosexual couples are still fighting for that right and are denied the right to family). That they will somehow damage the children they adopt because they will be bullied for having two dads instead of mom and a dad and the gay couples can not understand what their kids age going thought because they themselves were raised by heterosexual parents, that two women can nit replace a father figure for a child, etc. Meanwhile the are so many babies and children that are abandoned and just want to have a safe home and human contact. Care and love along with sensibility and openness for learning is the only thing that can make any of us good parents, none of us have guidebooks to parenting. Just like gay couples are figuring out how to raise children of different sexuality, like religious parents figuring out their relationships with their secular children, how to raise disabled or sick kids, many of us figuring how not to pass on generational traumas, etc, so I believe the parents of different race than their children can also figure out how to parent to the best of their ability just like all the rest of us. Nothing should be made into a reason to deny any child a possibility of having a home. And just like someone mentioned, a lot of kids are abused by their traditional families but they somehow get away with that just because they are traditional family, a mom, dad and birth kids.
@Jordana: I’m glad you had a good experience with your adoptive family. I agree it’s situational and we should respect the narratives of all adoptees. Unfortunately my experience has been on the difficult/negative side. I’m glad RTT is bringing attention to a complicated issue.
@SM: Completely disagree. I am a transracially adopted queer woman and while I don’t agree that white parents should *never* adopt children of color, the hesitation regarding transracial adoption is NOT comparable to homophobes taking issue with gay couples adopting children. The legacy of racism in this country, the fact that adoption has been used as a tool of imperialism (for example, forcibly taking Native children away from their families), and the history of transracial and international adoptees being abused and seen as “lesser” and even abused by their white families makes this baggage inescapable. Most people don’t say whites should never adopt kids of color, but there needs to be education, caution, and thoughtfulness given to the practice.
Jordana Bloom… you are the most valuable bit of information in this entire thread. So many points and some may be fair, but you actually live what is being discussed. Glad to have heard from you. Postulation can be vicious.
I think some of you adult adoptees need to go to an adoption agency and see what it’s like now. My husband and I adopted our first son 10 years ago and it was no cake walk. My agency really made us stop and think about raising children from another race. We attended classes both required and ones that we found on our own. We were also heavily vetted by the adoption agency, the state and the Federal government. I’m sorry you guys had negative experiences but adoption is very different now.
I find her story and the views expressed here really interesting and frightening. I’m mixed race. I have a black dad and white mum and I’m British.
I grew up in a rural, white area. I was the only kid with brown skin in my school and I was self conscious about that. This was the early 1990’s and I remember clearly a group of friends holding their arms out together and comparing their tan. When it came to mine they said they didn’t believe I was really that dark and maybe I was just dirty. I was probably 7 or 8 years old but it stuck with me. However getting older, I never had much else, other than people trying to tell me where I came from and getting annoyed when I insisted I was British.
Now I have friends who are white & black and raising mixed race children. We talk all the time about so many issues with our children and I can honestly say that race has never come up. I don’t know whether we are lucky but I get the feeling that race issues are considerably more prominent in the US. I’m not saying that the UK doesn’t have it’s race issues because of course it does but I can only go by my experience and compare it to what I read.
Also check out the nauseating content from food blogger Shauna Ahern/Gluten Free Girl. She adopted a black baby and since then has had her white saviour complex on full display while she laments that her BLACK SON will one day be seen as a tall, scary thug and she routinely hits up black writers and performers on Twitter to acknowledge her and her BLACK SON and how well she’s doing as a mother of a BLACK SON. Meanwhile she lives in a 99.7% white area and clearly has no idea how to do his hair. She sure likes showing all the woke literature she gets to show off on twitter though.
Aside from the terrible parents we have these ones who think they’re doing a good thing yet they have no idea how to relate to their kid as an actual person instead of a visual representation of their wokeness.
I know this sounds like “well no shit Kristin” content, but honestly…I’d rather her be honest about this. I’d rather her be a white person telling other white people, “We really don’t get it. You think you get it, but we really don’t.” I’d rather her make it clear that you have to work the bridge the gap between white and black communities instead of just dumping your non-white children into a space that doesn’t immediately recognize them as its own. Empathy is so important in the modern era when technology makes it so much easier to distance ourselves even further from the targets of ire and frustration.
Its the comments and discussions here that have truly opened my eyes, heart and soul to my white privilege, even as a lowly, widowed, single parent to a son. Not allowed a mortgage…and it was the 80’s!! Being paid less as a base salary (and a parent) than the white male….even though I was the top selling sales person Canada wide for 4 years in a row. Yes I have faced inequities, but I have never feared for my life at the hands of a police officer. I have never been denied housing because of the colour of my skin…my gender, yes but not my skin tone. Last night I tried to express to another (white) woman how much I was learning, and she came up with the trite….”I’m so sick of being blamed…” argument and I struggled to help her see that even that argument came from a place of privilege. I understand it’s wrong, but still couldn’t seem to find a way to explain others’ experiences. So keep preaching, Celebitches!! If all women came together…oh, what a power we would be!! No wonder so many articles pit one woman against the other. ‘They’ want us divided, and fighting amongst ourselves and distracted….’they’ NEED us divided, cause otherwise….why, WE could be the powerful ones if we all stood together…..
I so badly want us to be that united force!!!
I can’t even begin to describe how painful it is that even our BABIES aren’t safe from racism. We are literally never protected.
We’re targeted from the womb.
Racists claim that they don’t want Black women to have access to abortions because they LOVE Black people so much. And then, as soon as that child is born, they will do their best to destroy that child.
This is something that I think about quite a bit. I’m white and my SO is a black man, and just the things I’ve learned in our relationship (trying to rent an apartment with him was 10x harder than with any of my white friends/exes). It scares me to think about our future kids (which we’ve already talked about) and how many issues we’re going to have to face with schooling, where we ant to raise them, how to start having conversations about race/racism.
I’m glad Kristin is talking about this honestly because I see a lot of celebrities with adopted kids of other races who seem so laissez faire about it. Honesty and open dialogues are a dtep in the right direction, for sure.
I can so relate. I (white) live in Germany and my SO is Muslim and very much looking like one. You wouldn’t believe some of the racism I’ve witnessed. I believe it’s the same for Muslims in the US, if not much worse.
I’ve commented here a few times about being a Jewish Asian woman with an Ashkenazi father and the total difference in privilege he experiences compared to me. I was also transracially adopted (my mother is white as well), and it has been a difficult experience. I’ve been rejected by members of my own family, who just don’t like Asian people. I went into this interview expecting cringe but was pleasantly surprised. Sadly it’s a low bar to hope that a white person understands they have privilege when you are asking them to protect and take care of a child of color. I am not anti-adoption but I’m anti adopting ignorantly, hoping “love is enough” (it’s not), or god forbid being a white savior about it. I hope next time they touch on this topic on RTT they bring an adult transracial adoptee to speak about their experiences if possible, since our voices are really important as well. But I’m glad RTT is bringing attention to this complex issue.
That is an amazing idea to have an adult speak about their experiences. Get in touch with the Red Table Talk on Facebook. You never know!
@Nova: I commented on their Facebook page and suggested inviting Angela Tucker or Nicole Chung, maybe they will do a follow up! 🙂
It’s my understanding (from a FB group that focuses on issues concerning POC and white privilege) that this conversation was originally supposed to be with a transracial adoptee and they decided to use Davis instead for ratings. There was a lot of frustration in the group how it became very white centered instead of being an opportunity for TRA’s to speak.
Amid all the terrible things I read nowadays this truly gives hope.
I like red table talks. The interviews are refreshingly honest and they are not afraid to ask tough questions, something that is rare in interviews these days.
I thought the idea was cheesy at first, but I find myself watching and enjoying a lot of them.
Before White people adopt babies of other races they should be asked what their understanding is of White privilege, micro aggressions, and intersectionality. Almost everything about being Black is political (it shouldn’t be) and is a weapon that society will use against you. Your hair, your complexion, the spelling or pronunciation of your name. I cannot imagine growing up not being taught how to deal with all of that. With that being said I think it’s great that Kristin is at least making efforts to learn.
I think Kristen probably felt that she understood white privilege, but like she said, you can’t really understand it unless you’ve experienced it.
ALL OF THIS
I’m glad you put this out there. Too often people just assume that they just have to be “good” people to adopt transracially, when they actually need to learn about racism in a whole different way. It sounds like Kristin started her education while she was considering adoption and is continuing to learn. (Sadly, with some white parents with black children, they think they don’t have to worry about racism because they will “raise the child right.”)
I work with several (seriously, like 4-5) white women who have adopted black children and… it’s always sort of shocked me. I admit my first thought was that they were some sort of accessory, like a handbag of social activism. As I’ve come to know each of the women, I can say that they are all very committed to diversity, racial issues and improving our community – but I can’t say they were so prior to the arrival of these kids. I had a coworker confess to me a couple of weeks ago that he inadvertently (?) used a somewhat obscure racial slur in front of one of them. It just made me wonder again, did she have any idea what she was doing when she adopted these kids?
I ‘m glad that you mentioned that because that can be problematic too- the dehumanizing assumption that adopted kids who are anything other than white must be wokeness trophies. It’s good that she brought all of this up.
This site is so f-cking awesome.SERIOUSLY. I learn so much here from these articles and the comments and I truly appreciate the education I have received. I know I have a lot more to learn-
She seems like she’s doing a great job trying to learn. It will never end for her kids and she just needs to help them learn to cope. I was at a 4th of July party and a Norwegian woman, a doctor in her 40’s so educated and not old, just casually walked up to me and said “You are obviously not all white, so what are you?” Who says that?? Turns out a lot of people and I get that question in some form more often than you would think. Even at my age, even when I socialize in educated well off circles.
It happens ALL THE DAMN TIME.
Count the minutes before someone asks “but what if I’m curious and really want to know so I can show how supportive I am of their culture?” It’s hard to accept that feeling empowered to ask such a rude and invasive question without any concern for how it might be threatening or potentially harmful to the person is peak white privilege.
‘what are you’ and the favorite question of all time.. ‘no, really, where are you from’ as if he/she about to know some secret
Better late than never, I guess?
As a Black woman, this issue makes me very uncomfortable. I’m told that it’s better for a Black child to be raised in a home but is it, if the home is one where the people have absolutely no idea what the child’s life is going to be like? And are online course REALLY the answer?
I have dreadlocks and I can’t tell you how many times a White parent has approached me to ask how to care for their adopted Black child’s hair. The first thing it tells me is that, other than their child, they don’t know ANY Black people because they feel the need to ask a complete stranger. So I always tell the parent to get some Black friends because hair is going to be the LEAST of their child’s problems.
I also can’t help give a side-eye to all these single White celebrities who appear to be collecting Black children like Hermes bags. These women hit a certain age, want to be moms as soon as possible and get Black kids because they’re the easiest to adopt. White children ARE available especially to people with means, but that would require more effort.
The final thing that bothers me is when these women start bragging about how ENLIGHTENED they’ve become, now that they have Black children. Note to White people: WE DO NOT EXIST TO MAKE YOU BETTER PEOPLE. Work it out for yourselves.
Yeah, the online course thing made me cringe because all it really means is that she didn’t or doesn’t know any black people on a personal level that she could have spoken to about this. And that makes me question whether she has taken the tome and steps to bring black people into her own life now that she has two black children.
And YES to all of these white actresses of a certain age adopting black babies. I give major side eye to it.
I wouldn’t assume that. I thought it was a course required/ provided by the adoption agency- as there has been a little more attention paid to this.
Transracial adoption only recently got more popular. For a long time most international adoptions were from Russia and other eastern European countries. Then adoption from Asia got popular as there was more availability (esp girls from China). Then white celebrities started adopting black babies and people got more open to that.
It’s a complicated issue. I used to work in the foster care/adoption system and it was a constant issue there too. A lot of parents didn’t want their kids adopted by parents of a different race, but we had a real shortage of adoptive parents (especially black and Hispanic foster parents) so it happened all the time. We tried to set those people up for success, including maintaining contact with family of origin where possible.
Anyway, good conversation and happy to see celebrities talking about this.
I was on a flight to Cancun this weekend and had to listen to the worst conversation about interracial adoption behind me. There was the jokes about the curly but soft hair they were fetishizing on this brown boy they adopted and ths almost bragging about how this little boy didn’t understand what color he was, which imo is always dangerous if you don’t teach them at SOME point about their culture and identity and the other woman was also kinda bragging about how her daughter aggressively thought she was white didn’t know any Spanish and didn’t see the race but just happened to think she looked better than everyone. The convo just kinda made me itch.
I would think that the course is a requirement of adoption and not something she could refuse…. its stupid red tape but such is the world
With all due respect, the bare minimum always seems to be enough for White folks.
I would think that a adoption agency would want to know if the adoptive parents KNOW any Black people or have any knowledge of African-American (she’s American) history or current issues that face her children.
But how do you “get black friends”? Honest question. In fact, maybe that person was taking your advice and attempting to make a black friend, and you just missed it. If that seems weird to you, maybe that’s because it is undeniably creepy to solicit friendships on the basis of skin colour.
Best comment!
You get Black friends by being friendly to Black people. Approaching someone in a grocery store to ask for help to do their child’s hair because they’re too fucking lazy to find out for themselves IS NOT the way to make Black friends.
I once encountered a gay couple who had adopted a little Black girl in a fabric store when I was visiting San Francisco. I think I was the one who spoke first because she was dressed like a little princess and that’s how my mother used to dress me. She was the cutest thing ever but her hair was A MESS. We chatted about fabric and how cute their baby was. They were very proud daddies.
I couldn’t help myself from saying ‘you have to do something about that child’s hair’. They were so sweet and helpless and said that they tried to comb it but she cried and they didn’t want to hurt her. I told them crying when your had your hair combed was part of being a Black girl and not one of us had ever died from having our hair combed. I told them they needed to get products to put in her hair which would soften it and easier to comb and made some suggestions
I suggested they find a Black hair salon and take her there to get her hair done and get tips on hair care tips. I added, ‘And, if you don’t have any, you need to get some Black friends so you can learn about her culture and give her the support she’s going to need to grow up to be a strong Black woman in this world’. They both looked at me and said ‘we know you now’. It was so sweet. My heart broke a little because I really wanted to be friends with this little family. it was clear that they loved their little girl so much and she clearly loved her daddies.
I told them that I was going home the next day. I told them they would be okay because they had love and that was the most important thing.
That was about 15 years ago. I sometimes think about them and hope they’re okay. I hope I helped them.
Kerwood, I love that story. It’s beautiful, and human, and you’re right– exactly how we should make friends with people we don’t encounter every day. The thing is, I don’t see a significant difference between what you described and what little information we got from the other poster, apart from the fact that you were the one who initiated the contact in this case. I think it’s entirely possible that the person in the other story who asked for advice about the hair meant it kindly way, hoping to have some kind of human, friendly interaction, maybe learn something. Was it her job to help out? No, I guess not, if that’s the way she wants to look at it.
As a white woman, I hear you and share your discomfort. There has to be some denial of institutionalized racism and white supremacy involved for a white person to believe they can raise a Black child and have them feel accepted into either community.
I understand your trouble with it, and I do share the side eye on celebrities adopting kids of other races, still as one person said above it really does depend on each situation whether it’s a good idea or not. However, I have worked with many social workers over the years, and far more bad to horrid situations arise in group child and foster settings than adoption scenarios of all types. The main reason is money. We do not put in even the bare minimum of resources needed to help parentless children. This is why adoption is pushed as the best option, cause from a resource point of view it shifts some of the costs to make the remaining group or foster situations more manageable.
I love Kristen’s words. My boyfriend and I just got our sh*t together enough to buy a house. It’s our first step towards going into the adoption process. I lost my daughter to SIDS. We really want a child, no matter ethnicity. I’m pushing 40 (Thursday is my 40), so realistically, we aren’t having a bio kid. We are both open to having a child from a different background and being responsible and respectful of our child’s heritage and educating ourselves.
So sorry for your loss and wishing you all the best.
My heart goes out to you, I can’t imagine the pain… It’s wonderful that you’re going into the adoption process – best of luck!
I appreciate her honesty and willingness to discuss this. It sounds to me like she really is trying to get it right for her kids, and I wish the best for them.
Unfortunately I think it’s human nature to not FULLY understand some things like gender or racial privilege unless we experience it ourselves. That’s why it’s so important to listen to others when they talk of their experiences, and try to see beyond ourselves.
I think Kristen alluded to classes and had conversations with the adoption agency about these things. Our friends fostered to adopt and they adopted their son who is a black child and they are white. They didn’t go seeking a black child, but they felt called to foster. FOSTERING IS NOT EASY. IT is hard and heartbreaking and you have to look at yourself in the mirror everyday and say” this is not about me!” SO HARD> They are a solid family and foster families are so needed where we live and likely where most people live. They are obviously more versed on these issues then they were before and are doing their best. They love the F out of that child. He has special needs and some months in the beginning involved 40-50 appointments. He has made amazing strides! Truly miraculous. Because of Love. I can’t hate on these people at all for adopting a black child. I don’t think anyone should. What about interacial parents? My sister is white as snow and her biological kids are black. She has expericenced racism due to her mixed marriage and obviously her boys experiences will be different then hers was. She knows that. The point I am making is that although it exists i think most people just want to raise their families and love their children. Adoption agencies and child protection services are educating people about these things. Conversations like these are great because the more that these issues are in the open the more educated people can become.
Implicit bias is the root of all evil. If you don’t know what it is then you’re part of the problem and not the solution. It’s the educated way of saying that people prefer to be with their own kind and you’d have to pay them to do otherwise. That’s the nonsense that perpetuates the effects of institutionalized racism. There’s a great book on the topic call “Whiite Fragility” by Robin Diangelo.
One of my closest and dearest friends is African American and has said the race issue will never go away in the US because of how deeply embedded it is in the roots (historically speaking) of the country. I agree. People will see color and then people classify. Like it or not. And she and I have been friends for 15 years and it’s not until you are REAL close that you can honestly talk about race issues. She’s opened my eyes to a lot of things that I never understood being from immigrant parents. Things that until you have a dear one go through it, then you empathize. Sure you can read about it. Sure you can take college courses on it but it takes someone special to open your eyes.
This is great & I am happy to see Kristin talk about this with black women. There is a lot to be said about whites adopting and raising black kids. It seems like her heart and intentions are in the right place. Kudos to her & Jada for making it a table talk conversation.
I was amazed she had to take online courses to adopt. Maybe parents with their own biological kids should be required to take some!