Prince Charles & Camilla celebrate their 15th anniversary with a new portrait

charles camilla anniversary

Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall celebrate their 15th wedding anniversary today. They are still in relative seclusion in Birkhall, Scotland, even though Charles has recovered (or is recovering) from the coronavirus and Camilla never had it. To celebrate their anniversary, they released this completely charming photo from Birkhall, taken by a member of their Birkhall staff. They seem to be seated on a special bench for two on their back porch (??), and they’re holding their two rescue dogs, Beth and Bluebell.

Beth and Bluebell were both adopted from Battersea London, an animal-rescue shelter of which Camilla is royal patron. Both are Jack Russells, which is Charles’ favorite dog. He’s had Jack Russells for years. I think it’s interesting that every royal basically chooses a different kind of dog breed to love. The Queen loves her corgis (and dorgis, dachshund-corgi mixes), Charles loves Jack Russells and William and Kate love English cocker spaniels.

Anyway for their anniversary, I thought I would post some additional photos from their civil service and then their religious service in 2005. Remember, Charles and Camilla first went to the Windsor Guildhall for a very small civil ceremony, and Camilla wore a rather lovely and clean white dress suit. Then for the ceremony at Windsor Castle, Camilla wore that gorgeous pale blue/grey/silver ensemble with gold embroidery. Both outfits were made by by Antonia Robinson and Anna Valentine, designers who worked under the name Robinson Valentine.

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WEDDING OF HRH PRINCE CHARLES TO MRS CAMILLA PARKER BOWLES.

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WEDDING OF HRH PRINCE CHARLES TO MRS CAMILLA PARKER BOWLES.

Photos courtesy of Clarence House, WENN and Avalon Red.

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83 Responses to “Prince Charles & Camilla celebrate their 15th anniversary with a new portrait”

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  1. olala says:

    I would like to see him as a King ans soon

    • Em says:

      Sadly, I don’t think he’s going to be

    • L84Tea says:

      I would too. My feelings have only intensified this past year on QEII with all the grossness that has gone down, but she really needs to step down. It’s pretty ridiculous at this point. I know she thinks she’s anointed by God to be the queen, but she really can’t handle the job anymore. While Charles is not perfect, the man is now a senior citizen himself and has paid his dues as prince of wales more than enough.

      • Tessa says:

        The Queen really should have done more for Charles’ first wife. She just watched and did nothing. She knew about Camilla as far back as 1979 and her sister Princess Margaret was said to have told someone she hoped Camilla was going to give up Charles when he married Diana. If CHarles really cared for Camilla he would not have married anyone else and forced a divorce. He wanted heirs and Camilla even helped him choose DIana. I think Camilla was always in the drivers seat. DIana was the one hurt here.

    • Tessa says:

      I hope William has a long wait. Please bring back Harry and Meghan and Charles should put Will in his place.

      • Andrew’s Nemesis says:

        @Tessa Why would Harry and Meghan want to come back to wall-to-wall racism and Piss Morgan?

      • Tessa says:

        I for one would have loved to see the RF supporting Harry and Meghan and issuing a public statement about Piers and used the harassment word. But of course that would not happen.

      • Digital Unicorn says:

        Cain and Unable will have a long wait if Chuck is like his parents and grandmother (who was over 100). I can see them waiting at least another 20 years.

    • Jellybean says:

      I think the Queen has earned the right to retire from public duties, but she will be Queen until she dies, if not then what is the point of having the monarchy? We could be like America and have the Trumps and Kardasians, but I’d rather not. I hope that Charles will be crowned and if Camila is happy to do it, she should be Queen or better still, they could use the opportunity to agree a title for the spouse of sovereign, which is independent of gender.

      • Emmitt says:

        Other countries such as Spain and the Netherlands have seen their monarchs step down in favor of their heir. The monarchy still rolls on in those countries and will still roll on in England if Petty Betty ever stepped down for Charles.

      • Nancito says:

        I wonder if the Queen isn’t stepping down so as to preserve her legacy as the longest-reigning UK monarch – I mean the longer her reign is, then it becomes less likely that someone else can pass her record-setting rule. Yes, this sounds petty, but then we are talking about the British Royal Family . . .

  2. L84Tea says:

    I love this picture of them because it really looks like THEM. Very natural. And I’m also realizing that Charles is starting to remind me of my dad a lot so…yikes.

    • Tessa says:

      I am so glad they dressed down and he did not wear the medals nor she the bling.

    • LadyMTL says:

      Hahaha yeah, take off the suit jacket (and add about 20 pounds) and Charles is pretty much dressed like my dad.

    • JanetDR says:

      Me too! Although it would have been sneakers or hiking boots vs. loafers.

    • lisa says:

      Sigh….I like the concept of them dressing down but these outfits are atrocious. They couldn’t get her some classy dark jeans instead of her Land’s End gardening pants from 1992? And his green pants are velour, or corduroy, or what? (But cute from the waist up, including the dogs.)

  3. Sarah says:

    I still love both of her head pieces all these years later. An adorable portrait!

    • Larelyn says:

      I agree! Her outfits were so splendid in her wedding pictures. And the hats were the perfect accents. Those pics always stop me when I’m scrolling.

      • niki says:

        That gold feather thing was amazing. It fit perfectly with her big hair and the bigness of the day. She’ll be Queen (consort) one day, yet couldn’t really bring the jewels.

      • Suz says:

        Camilla really does have the prettiest hats out of the rest of the immediate RF. Not like the York girls’ silly hats, Kate’s lil’ hats or her disk hats or the Queen’s bucket hats. Just very elegant and pretty.

      • Courtney B says:

        Suz—totally agree. She has some great hats. Brooches too.

    • lucy2 says:

      That gold feather one is a work of art.

    • Babz says:

      I think her wedding day was the prettiest I have ever seen her look. Her wardrobe was very on point and so age-and-occasion appropriate. The gown for the Blessing Ceremony was stunning, in both color and cut. And she really can do justice to a proper hat. She will never be a favorite of mine, but she carried off that day perfectly. Their happiness was palpable, and even though they got there in a very messy and damaging way, it’s obvious they are good together. If only they could have done it thiry years earlier, so much sadness and heartbreak could have been avoided. But then, we would have never had Diana or her sons. Things go the way they are supposed to, regardless of how we wan them to.

    • Ronaldinhio says:

      She looked stunning at her wedding
      I rather enjoy her

  4. Becks1 says:

    I thought the new picture was really cute. Camilla is dressed like my mother lol, and Charles is dressed exactly how I would expect him to dress when he’s “casual.”

    Okay I said Camilla is dressed like my mother but she’s basically dressed like me. I just don’t really wear button downs.

    weird that there is no outcry about the Kensington Palace video “stealing the limelight” from their anniversary.

  5. BayTampaBay says:

    Looking at the last picture I thought, who is that good looking tall guy standing by Harry.

    Then I realized it was William.

    • smcollins says:

      Lol I knew it was William but caught myself thinking what a hottie he was in his younger years. Harry was cute but has definitely gotten more handsome with age.

      • Anna says:

        Agreed. Harry aged well, William not so much.

      • Digital Unicorn says:

        Harry is def hot now, William seemed to lose his looks pretty much overnight.

      • Suz says:

        Genetics can be a cruel thing. The inbred Windsor genes unfortunately took over in William. I hope his beautiful kids end up with the Middleton genes.

      • L84Tea says:

        Harry is not only the more handsome of the brothers (in my opinion), but his ability to be thoughtful, kind, to think for himself, and the way he loves his wife and son and puts them first is what makes him so smokin’ hot to me…

      • lucy2 says:

        William always looked so much like a guy from my past.
        It gives me a little happiness that they both aged terribly.

    • Lady D says:

      Me too, Bay:) I didn’t recognize William either. Who is the blonde lady next to Harry? Is that Zara?

      • Maria says:

        It’s Laura, Camilla’ s daughter.

      • Lady D says:

        Thanks, Maria. I always forget Camilla has children. The only one I’m peripherally aware of is Tom. I wonder if they will have a place on the balcony when Charles is king?

  6. Deanne says:

    It’s a lovely, natural looking photo. The dogs are adorable.

  7. Seraphina says:

    I know I will be racked over the coals but when I see them together I always think of Diana. She was taken out of the picture and they got together and are living their best life. Just sad the stories behind these two being together.

    And I know I will forever think of Diana because I was about 7 or 8 when they married. I stayed up to watch and was in a trance. The pomp and circumstance was fairytale come to life. But I did have one strange thought: the Prince is not handsome. 🤣

    • Anna says:

      Watching the Crown made me more sympathetic to Charles, but Diana was a victim of the royal family’s manipulations. I’m glad that Charles and Camilla can live their lives together now, but it’s a tragedy that Diana isn’t here to live hers.

    • Aria says:

      Yeah it’s very sad , diana doesnt have happy ending. I just get it , cheating men always get happy ending and those wife have a terrible life after that. I mean where is karma and justice to those woman??

      • Seraphina says:

        I need to pick up where I left off watching. I was really neutral when it came to the BRF BEFORE Meghan came on board. And then I took a real interest thinking they would reinvent themselves (since a great deal no longer see their use) but with everything they have and have not done to/for Meghan and Harry, I am now very much: down with the monarchy.

    • Tessa says:

      Diana was treated horribly by the whole clan. The Crown took liberties with the story of Charles and Camilla. Charles told his biographer he was not ready to marry when he met Camilla (Dimbleby, The Prince of Wales, 1994). He was very serious about other women at least two turned down his proposal. There was no conspiracy between the Queen Mother and Mountbatten; she did not trust him according to her authorized biography. Charles married a young woman he did not love yet kept Camilla around as his “friend.” they really never lost touch with each other. Diana was more or less given her walking papers after she had the heir and spare for Charles. And divorce was discouraged, Diana would have risked losing much access to William and Harry had she walked away from the marriage early on. I don’t care for Camilla but perhaps she and Charles deserve each other Even though, HM should have done what she could for DIana and . helped her and given her protection. I only have sympathy for CHarles because I don’t like how William is behaving now. Also HM and the family knew that Charles and Camilla were not going to lose contact with one another and knew what could happen to Diana in that marriage, It was a terrible tragedy.

      • Ruby_Woo says:

        I watched one documentary called ‘The Windsors’ which seemed legit because they were allowed access to the Royal libraries. And one of the women Charles proposed to was Mountbatten’s grandaughters (it was really his dream to marry his family into the BRF). But the girl turned him down.

        There’s also this absoluelty insane doc on youtube about Charles’ other mistress, an Australian socialite name Kanga. Charles would alternate spending time with her and Camilla depending which one was not pregnant at the time. Kanga was a chatty cathy and claimed people were ‘after her’. She fell out of a hospital window and always claimed that she was pushed and everyone including her own family insisted that she was ‘crazy’ (the same as they do with Diana).

        What’s gross is that after Kanga died and Charles officially got with Camilla, they would regularly visit Kanga’s ex husband’s estate to holiday. These lot are really incestuous.

    • Erinn says:

      I mean, Diana had affairs as well – with more than one man during her marriage.

      This is what I don’t understand – so many people seem to focus so much on Charles’ misdeeds, but Diana certainly did some crappy things as well. People don’t believe Charles deserves a happy ending, but if Diana was also cheating is she ‘owed’ a happy ending any more than they are? Diana also supposedly stalked one of her lovers – Oliver Hoare, married art dealer – who’s home she called hundreds of times after he broke it off.

      I just think it’s healthy to consider that there’s no perfect player in this mess. Diana did an amazing job of controlling her narrative, and she did some absolutely wonderful things while she was alive. But that doesn’t mean that she should get a free pass when 20 something years after her death people are still using Charles’ affairs as a reason why he shouldn’t be allowed happiness.

      • Tessa says:

        As I said, Diana was cut loose after she had the heir and spare. Charles told her no more children and biographers said he was done with her. Diana moved on and got involved with Hewitt. Charles was spending his time with Camilla then. Jephson and Wharfe both said Hoare pursued Diana and called her, it was a relationship for both of them, both are dead and can no longer comment. He was previously involved with a woman whose husband had a child with another woman, she went public. Hoare was just as much to blame for getting involved with Diana who was very vulnerable. Diana’s narrative was corroborated by Charles via his biographer. The thing that really looked bad for Charles was his telling his biographer he married Diana knowing he preferred Camilla. He should have not married DIana under those circumstances. Diana admitted her flaws. Charles tended to blame others. I think DIana was given a raw deal She would have been happier with a man who loved her. Charles should not have subjected Diana to this.

      • dogmom says:

        @Erinn ITA. And I actually wonder about Camilla — she didn’t want to marry Charles in the ’70s, she wanted to marry APB, and then she ended up with Charles 30 years later when she had no other options, so I wonder how happy she truly is with the way things turned out. She looks incredibly beautiful in the blue-silver-grey ensemble, regardless.

      • Courtney B says:

        @dogmom I think she does love Charles and they’re happy. But I think she would’ve been just as happy to be together without being married. Until Meghan came along, no one got attacked more in the press. (And yes, I know it’s for different reasons. Just as a reference for the sheer nastiness and personal attacks, especially about her looks.) I mean, yikes. And whether you think it was deserved or not, it was bad. And she knew it was coming. You can read stories about how frightened she was in earlier public events because of the public reaction. When Meghan appeared on the scene, I was neutral. But the sheer amount of attacks and their content made me first a defender and then a fan. I started in a negative place with Camilla but came around on her for largely the same reason. So I do think she loves him because, as with Meghan, there’s no other reason to put up with the crap dished out.

      • Tessa says:

        Camilla got about 8 years of work with a spin doctor paid for by CHarles, before the wedding took place. I think Camilla did so much worse than Meghan but I think she got better treatment by the media and also blogs. Meghan never was a big factor in breaking up a royal marriage much less one with young children. She was divorced and Harry was single and divorced people had been accepted the RF for years before. Charles should have hired the spin doctor he used for Camilla for Harry and Meghan to offset the horrible press and criticism they get. I will never like Camilla. I must say I found Camilla one of the nerviest women I ever heard about and I did not like how she undermined Diana. I never saw such vile comments about Meghan since she dated Harry. Some were downright scary. Camilla in comparison had it easy. As I see it anyway. There was never any question of Camilla having to leave the way Harry and Meghan ended up doing. Charles should have used the same word “non-negotiable” (which he used for Camilla) and applied it to Harry and Meghan.

      • Thirtynine says:

        I think, Erinn, it makes a difference how old you are to how you see Diana, at least for some people. I don’t know how old you are obviously, but I am Diana’s contemporary. Sure, adult Diana lived a flawed life as do we all. Some of her flaws were real, and some have been deliberately concocted or distorted since her death in service of PR. Diana was a fairly sheltered teenager with a taste for romantic Barbara Cartland novels in which the older rake is enchanted and gives up his wicked ways for the virginal young bride. I have no doubt she was in love with Charles in that first love kind of way. Its hard not to see Charles marrying her with Camilla’s approval as cynical and selfserving in the extreme. Diana did her duty amazingly, just watching old you tube clips of her first speech in welsh, the trip to Australia, we forget how young she really was. There’s another clip of a man lurching out of the crowd to grab her during a walkabout. She jumps away and her protection officers grab him, and then she just keeps on going. And she was always delightfully unexpected- a choker for a headband, a dance on stage, rachmaninov on an old piano. When we could see how the press gave her no quarter, and she had no allies in the family or her marriage to support her, she had to either sink or swim. Whatever else, I have the highest respect for her that she found the strength to lift herself up from a cruel, very public marriage breakdown and constant press harassment to make such a difference in the world as she did. Many of us were going through our own disillusionment and divorces at the same time and could take strength from that, and judge with more understanding her seeking to be loved, and her struggles with bulimia. There was nowhere for her to hide. There were no guidebooks on how to deal with insatiable press intrusion, with no limits. She did the best she could in intolerable circumstances, is it any wonder that mistakes were made, with the benefit of hindsight? Would any of our lives stand up to overwhelming public scrutiny and judgement as she faced? Charles and Camilla have tried to rewrite the narrative, but for me at least, they are always seen in light of their behaviour toward Diana. I had a moment of thinking better of Charles, at his initial support of Meghan, but I guess that wasn’t to be either.

  8. Lightpurple says:

    Doggies! More Beth and Bluebell, please!

  9. SkaraBrae says:

    I full on love Camilla’s wedding
    dress/coat.

    I remember watching her arrive 15 years ago and being quite wowed.
    The colour, fit and embroidery were perfect and the mad hairpiece is very her.
    She has the best hat game of all the Royals.

    • Paula says:

      I remember being wowed, too! And totally surprised as I didn’t expect much of her fashion wise. I still think her wedding outfits were perfection and still hold up after all these years

      • Agree, Paula and SkaraBrea — Both her wedding outfits were good and so well designed they still look great and wearable. And I like the informal anniversary photo, too.

  10. Dhavynia says:

    I’m really hoping William is missing his hair right about now

  11. Chaine says:

    Camilla looks so much better in the current day portrait then in her wedding photos from 15 years ago! she was very Botoxed and overly made up that day.

  12. Harper says:

    The pic is cute but they should be criticized for releasing it during the pandemic. Because that’s the going rule, right? No? Oh, right. It’s the separate playbook for Harry & Meghan.

    The Queen was not understanding or sympathetic to Diana because her own life was basically turned upside down when she was quite young. She was forced to assume duties and take it on the chin and she wanted Diana to do the same without complaining. Too bad she couldn’t have pulled Diana in and said, “I was young too and forced to horribly conform. Let’s have a drink and get through this together.”

    • Tessa says:

      The Queen could not identify with Diana because HM was in charge. Her husband was consort, which what Diana was as well. HM just looked the other way and watched the wedding of her son and Diana in denial that Camilla was still in his life one way or another–she was told about Camilla and Charles in 1979. HM did not have DIana’s worries because she could not be displaced by Philip as a distant cousin was way way down in line of succession.

    • Harla says:

      As we’ve seen these last couple of years, if your name isn’t Andrew then the Queen doesn’t much care.

  13. Heather Bailey says:

    I remember loving Camilla’s blue/silver wedding dress and hat when I saw it 15 years ago and I still love it. It could be worn today as well – it’s held up. The white dress and hat for the civil service is beautiful as well.

    I too feel so badly for Diana and what happened to her. I think Diana was so young when she married Charles. I would say she was too young. She had a lot of mental health issues as a result of her childhood as well and that carried over into her marriage and the huge stage it was on. I think Charles didn’t know how to deal with her. Doesn’t excuse his affair. Doesn’t excuse any of his behavior toward Diana. I think it was just a pressure cooker relationship that was doomed from the start. I was thrilled for Diana when she and Charles split because she seemed so much happier and felt so much more free. Her death was tragic.

    • Tessa says:

      The “mental health issues is something that has cropped up posthumously in books by CHarles sympathizers IMO. She was susceptible to bulimia when stressed but she was fully functional and Diana was a teenager when Charles courted her and about 12 years younger. Charles perhaps thought she would learn the “rules” and he could be free to still maintain contact with Camilla. Diana did not know how to deal with Charles and his “rules” and did not tolerate Camilla and play nice. That was her “flaw” IMO that Charles saw. I think a woman is very sane not to play nice with the other woman. Diana was Princess of Wales and did great in the role, her husband did not appreciate her and he was seen putting her down (there is a clip at a banquet where he said he needs two wives with Diana visibly cringing). Diana should have been allowed to leave the marriage earlier under those conditions. . I think one of those young aristos who courted Lady Diana would have married her and she would have been as happy as her sisters in marriage

  14. AnnaKist says:

    That’s a very nice anniversary pirtrait. Aww, I love the little doggies!

  15. Jessica says:

    Love the pic. Now that Harry and Meghan have rightfully gotten out of there, these two are my favorite active royals (if one can have favorites in such a silly system which tbh should no longer exist).

  16. Bavarian says:

    great Picture; they look really approachable. I just feel a Little sad seeing them in Scotland; I had to cancel my vacation in Scotland ( I would have been there right now)

    • Lady D says:

      I’m sorry you had to cancel, Bavarian. It would break my heart to have to cancel a trip to anywhere in the UK. My son was supposed to be on one of those cruise ship to the Antarctic two weeks ago. Right now one of the ships has been diagnosed with over 60% of the people onboard infected.

  17. Rosie says:

    Looove that they have rescue dogs! I really believe that has a positive impact. Helps dispel the sense that mixbreeds are somehow second rate.

  18. Dinah says:

    Gosh, what a terribly unflattering photo. A bad pick. The optics of the future of the British monarchy, through this photo, is lame. They sit weird, like old people suffering from rheumatism (apologize me) and with a crazy grimace on their faces. Despite the cute dogs and the outdoor scene, this photo doesn’t do much for them, PR-wise.

    • Dinah says:

      On another note: with so many years of preparation for kingship, Charles has become a pitiful figure, as the queen clings to the throne. Queenie just isn’t fit for the job anymore, but apparently she doesn’t award her son the throne yet. And apparently there is no one around her who can convince her to abdicate and stop her ill performance, at watch for awhile now.

      She’s been losing influence over her family as well, since we’ve not only been vividly aware of the problems between Harry and Wills, but also, for some time now, have been witnessing the silent war for power and popularity between Charles and Wills. Looks like those around him have convinced Wills that he should to be the next king, ill prepared or not. Thank G there are constitutional rules and laws to hindre that to happen.

      • Tessa says:

        traditionally, the Queen would treat the heirs more “special” but she made the exception with the way she is treating her second son. She IMO favored the direct heirs, and Charles too given the over the top photos of the “dynasty” earlier this year. With George mixing the pudding with HM, Charles and William standing around. Spares were excluded. Charlotte had no chance to be in that photo. Nor Louis. She also ostriches. So all that combined probably caused her to ignore the way WIlliam and Kate treated Harry and Meghan. And hoped it would just go away. She ignored the offensive remarks about Harry and Meghan even the one where Archie was said to be like a chimpanzee. The Queen really never had that influence because she wanted to ignore problems. She should have taken more care with Diana and not cut her loose. And now also with Harry and Meghan and Archie, she more or less does the same. The danger of HM abdicating is that once Charles takes over William would be waging a big campaign for his father to abdicate.It would not be pretty to watch.

  19. MeghanNotMarkle says:

    Happy Anniversary, you crazy kids.

    I still love her wedding frock all these years later. I want to see more of their doggos. We have a Jack Russell, too. His name is Scotty. Anyway, really good photo of them with the pups.

  20. TheOriginalMia says:

    I loved her wedding dresses, especially that blue gray one. It’s gorgeous.

    Beth & Bluebell are adorable and steal the show.

    Happy Anniversary to them!

    • Courtney B says:

      I saw her dress at the V&A exhibit a few years ago. The detailing and embroidery is so gorgeous. Moreso than even in the photos. It, and Sarah Chatto’s were my favorites there.

  21. Laura says:

    Nice photo of couple.
    On subject of Will’s looks… His features haven’t really changed. His face looks pretty much the same with the exception of that heavy Windsor jawline becoming more prominent. With the hair loss it’s accentuated even more and really detracts from his looks. And, he has that resting petulant face too. Lol
    If you notice when he wears a cap or one of those ceremonial toppers, you get a glimpse of the younger Will. It really is the lack of hair.

    • Tessa says:

      I see the oblong face of a Spencer also. William does get mean looks on his face and his expressions when he was near Meghan and Harry made him look very very unattractive. Maybe that;s his true self.

  22. Awkward symphony says:

    Thank god he recovered! His abnormally HUGE fingers always made me wonder if he has a allergy or something serious causing this.
    The picture is nice but notice how none of the tabloids hacks are accusing the cambridges of overshadowing their anniversary🙄

  23. L4frimaire says:

    It’s only been 15 years? I remember that straw hat but not much else about that wedding. Always think it’s longer with their messy history. Just realize that it’s my 15 year wedding anniversary this month as well. Didn’t realize it was the same month. This lockdown has me forgetting dates.

  24. Mina_Esq says:

    Her boots, and his watch and blazer look good. Everything else that they are wearing needs to be burned ASAP, especially those awful trousers Charles is wearing. 😋

  25. Other Renee says:

    It’s all about those adorable little dogs! And Camilla’s jeans. And Charles’ loafers. And Camilla’s beautiful wedding outfits.

  26. LoonaticCap says:

    I read their story as a child in early 90s. I never liked him for the way he treated Diana and exposed his “true love” for Camilla. Yes people will say she also cheated but most likely after she found out he was never faithful so…
    These two made it. Unfortunately she didn’t. She would be living her best life now and would be a support to Meghan for sure.

    Ok done ranting. Carry on..

  27. June says:

    Isn’t it funny what you remember from certain events? I recall the wind blowing Camilla’s hair ornament and she kept trying to hold it and hoping it wasn’t going to fly off.
    I was glad that those two finally got married. Perhaps I’ll live to see a divorced couple on the throne. Incredible. Can not help but remember what the Ministers did to Uncle David and Aunt Wallis.

  28. Alice says:

    My God, that woman can wear the hell out of a hat.