Robert Lacey’s Battle of Brothers: William and Harry – The Inside Story of a Family in Tumult is out this week, and he’s doing some interviews, here and there, to promote it. It is STILL hilarious to me that royal commentators were amplifying Lacey’s book when they thought it would be another smear job on the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. Once the Daily Mail excerpted all of the stuff about William and Kate’s decade-long courtship, all of that amplification grinded to a halt. It also doesn’t help that Lacey seems to be spelling out, in no uncertain terms, that Prince William has deep anger issues. In a new interview, Lacey was asked whether the problems between Harry and William started with Meghan’s arrival. His answer was…interesting:
Susanna asked: “The turmoil that is going on between these two brothers is very disruptive. Is it something that started with Meghan marrying Harry and finding out she was very unhappy within the Royal family, or did it begin before that?”
Robert replied: “No, it went way back, and what’s what the book is about. It goes right back to the beginning, it’s chickens coming home to roost from all the trouble of the 80s and 90s. These young boys are the product of that marital turmoil, and they took two opposite lessons from it. William took the lesson of duty, as he went through these difficult times, the prospect that he was going to be King was inspiration and strength for him. So when he fell in love he politely asked his girlfriend to wait nine or ten years before they got married so he could make sure she was up to the job. That’s his priority and they have created a wonderful figurehead for the future. ”
He added: “Harry took the opposite conclusion from the turmoil of his parents’ loveless arranged marriage. He was going to go for love, so we are looking at a clash between these eternal principles of love versus duty.”
As we could see from the excerpts, it wasn’t like William actually politely asked Kate to wait(y) for a decade. Lacey even detailed a few of their breakups, and William’s infidelities, and William’s attempts to date aristocratic girls in his group. He ended up marrying Kate because she always took him back, no matter what. Because she waited him out and gave him no other options. This argument about “William was testing Kate’s queenly abilities for a decade” is merely an after-the-fact contrivance to explain why Will and Kate’s relationship was so strikingly without passion. Meanwhile, Harry and Meghan’s relationship always reads as a complete fairytale of love at first sight, lightning in a bottle.
But sure, Lacey isn’t wrong about the broad strokes – Harry took different lessons from his parents’ marriage than William. William was determined to NOT marry someone who was anything like his mother (idealistic, naive, charismatic), and someone who would not overshadow him, like Diana overshadowed Charles.
Photos courtesy of WENN, Avalon Red and Backgrid.
I cannot imagine sacrificing my self-respect and identity for the “honor” of being the one for whom William eventually had to settle.
I think Kate “fell in love” with the idea of Prince William. Who in their right mind could imagine what he is really like. And her mother pushed her sacrifice her identity, dignity and honor not for William, but what for what Prince William brought with him: power and money.
I always think of the sunken cost theory with them. Kate invested so much in that relationship that she got to the point where she had to keep going or admit that all that investment was worthless
I remember an interview w/Carol Middleton and she’d said, “We’ve invested so much into this-” (I think it was after the engagement, and she was being asked about a break-up or something). I thought it was a weird thing to say about your daughter’s relatonship!
Kate and William look more like old friends to me. I never really saw the romance there tbh, but they do seem like friends.
CC – I hope you’re right for their sake. Friendship is what makes a relationship enduring. Of course it’s nice when that’s coupled with passion, but it’s my belief that passion without friendship won’t carry a marriage, but friendship without passion can (i.e. a business marriage both agree to). And these two need to stay together. What’s out there for either one if they don’t?
Wilma, I think you’re right about the sunken cost theory.
@betty, I hope I’m right too LOL. I do believe rumours about the affair and how Kate clung onto the family for dear life…but I can’t seem to buy CB’s perspective on their marriage (like William resents Kate, Kate is about to snap). I said on an earlier thread that Kate and William look like a couple that’s going on couples counselling, and I still think they give me that vibe. I don’t think William is still going after Rose or is in love with her or anything like that, but i could be wrong. My thought was just that he’s having flings while Kate pretends she doesn’t know.
But that aside, a lot of their interactions do seem friendly enough. I think Kate is good at faking something if she wants (her interactions with Meghan), but idk..they don’t seem to hate each other at all. Even in that Christmas special when they were racing each other to decorate the cake. Their marriage is probably complex enough for us to guess. It felt so stale even on day 1,when they were on the way to the reception compared to how Harry and Meghan went!!
I will say this: their lack of PDA is probably a smart choice. The average person can’t tell their status of the marriage. We know that if Harry ever resents Meghan, the poor man wouldn’t even try to fake it lmfao
“Kate, let’s get married. I’ve looked around for a decade, and I’ve discovered that you’ll do… I guess.”
“We’re in love…whatever ‘in love’ means.”
When I see him now I think of Lord Farquaad from Shrek.
O my goodness. Am I reading into this that Harry has a love match while William settled for a dutiful, submissive, easily molded robot? No wonder William is angry!
It certainly doesn’t make them sound like the love story of the century that’s for sure.
When he’s talking about Harry looking for love in his relationship and marriage, he literally describes as being “the opposite approach” to that which William took. Nothing says marriage of convenience more than describing it as the dutiful choice, the opposite of marrying for love, and emphasizing the need to test his potential spouse and audition her for her public, working role.
Harry and Meghan are naturally in a honeymoon phase, Kate and William as a couple have been together for almost 20 years. It’s hard to compare a relatively new relationship to one that is so settled.
I know I felt differently about my partner after 5 years anyway, still love, but less passion and more grateful he took the bins out, or made dinner etc 🙂
We should also take into account that Kate hanging in there for 10 years was not for William. If it had been anyone else but the FKoE, she would have thrown him to the side. He knows this. He knows she waited it out for what his title buys her and that must sting too. It all must sting.
If you compare how Jack and Eugenie interacted at their marriage, after being together for a decade and Kate and William at their wedding, there is a difference, especially with the groom. This whole passion fades away after time excuse doesn’t work when you see how Jack looked happy and his wedding after marrying his girlfriend of almost ten years. William had a smirk the whole time and it got worse from there.
I agree that Kate wanted to marry the future king at all costs. But I also think it’s possible she also wanted a fairy-tale love story and that she was in love with William, at least in the beginning. I think it stings for both of them, that Kate knows William never felt passionately in love with her, and that William knows Kate used him. It makes sense that Kate is so jealous of Meghan, because Meghan got the prince AND the magical love story. And yes, you can’t compare newlyweds to 2 decades of togetherness, but one is a love match and the other is convenience. I’ve been with my husband for 18 years and its better now than ever. Yes, its different than the passionate beginning, but it is a connection that comes with shared history and choosing each other every day.. People can truly be in love and stay together for decades. I dont think this is the case with W&K. I think it will be for H&M.
If you watch Kate and William’s wedding (available on youtube) Will has his back to Kate for her entire walk down the aisle. He never turns to catch a glimpse of her or give her a smile of encouragement or love. I found it the oddest thing, and I bet Kate was majorly pissed that he didn’t turn and take a quick peek. It looks really cold to me. Harry turns and looks, but not Will. I bet Carole was mad about it too.
True that Harry & Meghan are still in a honeymoon phase, and admittedly I have no idea what Wills & Kate were like in the college years of their relationship, but it’s much more than that. They seem like a real partnership, and they were much older and more romantically experienced when they met. Add to that they had every reason in the world to give up on this relationship and/or turn on one another. Drama doesn’t always bring people closer, but in this case it did. So that speaks well of their long term potential.
Nic
William has a smirk and so did Kate. Especially at that”for richer or poorer “ part. They both came off as friends having a good time, but not as a couple madly in love.
Over the years Kate has looked nervous and William angry. Kate animated and William annoyed.
And it was publicly said they could never show any public display of affection because it was against protocol, but that was later loosened to a personal preference for work appearance.
I think it’s an obvious arrangement, but that Kate really hoped for romance or at least less stepping out to trim roses. Because even as a business relationship that’s William acting out of step with their image.
@harper I think the reason he didn’t turn was because of ‘tradition or protocol’ because I remember just before the wedding hearing that he was going to be the last person in the world to see her dress, because he wasn’t going to look as she walked down the aisle. I love that harry watched Meghan, his face was everything.
William uses protocol to cover being an ass. Someone mentioned that Jack turned to watch Eugenie and put on his glasses to watch her. They had also been together ten years (no public breakups though) and didn’t act like friendly co workers. Same with the no ring thing. All the other men have one, even if a few wear it with their signet ring. William couldn’t even bother to get one made.
I agree with you Nic919 there was a genuine besotted joy between Jack and Eugenie. Him putting on his glasses was so sweet. At one point Eugenie looked over and gave him this adoring look when they were kneeling.
Just like Harry and Meghan’s wedding was almost sickeningly sweet with how happy they are (they’re that couple). Meghan gets this Disney princess look on her face with Harry at one point, he altered between trying to be very serious and very focused on the ceremony and smiling as a wide as anything.
William and Kate just looked pleased with he attention and the scene being made for them. Lording over the crowd quite a bit.
Ditto for the proposal photo shoots. 2 looked like very genuine couples (H&M/J&E), while the other looked a little forced and awkward. Like brother & sister at JC Penny’s portrait studio.
William also took the lesson from daddy that it was okay to cheat. Lacey didn’t address that I see.
Yeah, that was a pretty glaring omission for me, too. Lacey had no problem delving into their courtship and breakups, but the one thing that seems to be coming more into the light – the cheating – still is ignored. I know he couldn’t say anything overt about it, but he’s a strong enough writer that he could have made the point without coming right out and saying it. Maybe he felt that alluding to Wills chasing other women during the breakups was enough to extrapolate that into current day rose gardening and dad dancing on ski trips.
Let’s face it: neither Chuck or Di had ANY clue as to what a good parent looks like. Neither had caring, kind, unconditional love growing up (maybe from a nanny, but it’s not the same thing). SOME people can break the mold, and I do think they tried, ESPECIALLY Di, Charles seemed to want to be one when it didn’t inconvenience him.
Also, I think a lot of PWBigT is in the DNA, the rest is the entitlement he grew up in. H got a much better shake of the DNA salad.
For “legal reasons” no doubt.
@Babz – I lolled at your post bc the euphemisms that people have had to develop to allude to Willy Wanderer are truly something to marvel at.
Not just “okay to cheat” but okay to follow the time honored tradition of marrying for procreation & country, with the promise of a lifetime to enjoy mistresses. Lord knows, even if the aristo girls weren’t looking to wed Harry, there was no shortage of beautiful “English roses” he could have married with minimal criticism and cheated on for a lifetime. Does anyone think that maybe Chelsy helped shaped Harry’s desires? i.e. He had a taste of what life with an exciting partner could be like and he didn’t want anything less?
Bluemoon
That it was ok to cheat was a lesson the BRF teaches every heir. It’s acceptable because you’re anointed by god to lead in their logic.
And that aside… you’re the heir. You’re never told no. Only yes. Everything you do is acceptable as long as it’s discreet.
The implications are certainly interesting. I don’t think comparing the lengths of the brothers’ relationships is valid…not when it’s been said that William was already feeling restless and losing interest in Kate while they were still at St. Andrews. From everything we’ve seen and heard of their relationship in the past two decades, it’s becoming more apparent that William was never in love with Kate. Certainly not to the extent that she is (or maybe *was*? hmm…) with him, at the very least.
Gosh that hurts to hear, and I’m not even the recipient. While we know those weren’t the words used, that was the gist of the sentiment. She’s worth so much more than that but somehow doesn’t think so.
I do think Kate genuinely loved William. I’m not sure if she still does or not. I wonder what would be easier for her, if she still is in love with him or no longer cares?
I’m with you Kaiser. They certainly took different lessons from their parents marriage, but I don’t think it’s as black and white as “duty vs love.” Or maybe, actually, it is. William knew his life would be easier with a wife who was very different from his mother – one who never really overshadowed him, one who was pretty boring, didn’t create any waves in the royal family, who wouldn’t “embarrass him” by being too emotional, etc.
Harry wanted to love his wife – and I do think Meghan has a lot of the same qualities as Diana, but I don’t think Harry was actively looking for someone like his mother.
Also, the idea that William made Kate wait for almost a decade because he wanted to be sure she was up to the job is laughable and I cannot believe we are still getting that story – UNLESS you consider “the job” basically meant being a doormat for William and keeping your mouth shut about it.
If they learnt anything, one learnt to protect his wife from a ruthless institution and the other learnt that all Princes of Wales have had a mistress.
Bravo! Excellent comment! 👏🏻👏🏻
I want to nominate this for comment of the week.
What’s even more funny is that Kate still isn’t up to the job. She isn’t a good consort. I always go back to her mother saying “that being royal is more than giving speeches”. Of course being royal is more than a speech, but it certainly is a major part of being royal. Prince Philip gave 20,000 speeches in his life. It’s important for the royals, especially the monarch and consorts, to address the peasants and speak on the issues they are supporting. That right there are the Middleton’s and Kate’s view of royal work. It’s the beginnings of top CEO. They don’t care about the hard parts like being a good public speaker and speaking to their subjects. They only care about the surface things like dressing pretty. It’s why Kate thinks merely dressing like Meghan or Diana will endear the public to her, not connecting with the public like Diana did.
Agreed
If Kate was any good there wouldn’t have been a need to bring out Sophie or talking of getting Beatrice and Eugenie on to do royal engagements. Diana was young and inexperienced but she understood duty, unlike Kate, and she was never questioned in terms of her work ethic. Kate started this at 29 and hundreds of excuses were made and continue to be made for her inability to just do the work. Even if she could never improve at speaking, she could still just triple her numbers and do the work. She doesn’t want to and the RRs enable her so much she believes she doesn’t need to do more.
Diana didn’t just understand duty and was very willing to do the work, she was also brilliant at it. She reinvented the entire genre of doing Royal in Public — she was warm, she touched people, she smiled at specific individuals and engaged in friendly banter with people, AND she drew attention to causes and topics that challenged people, and that were difficult for the Royal Institution to get a handle on — AIDS/HIV, children amputees in zones filled with land mines, starvation. She WAS the “top CEO” of royal work, for real, for as long as she lived. A good CEO innovates the business, steers the ship in new directions, generates interest and attention and revenue, and is a recognizable face and name that everyone associates with the brand. Diana was all of that! The fact that she was beautiful, fashionable, and charismatic helped her do this good work, but they were never all she was.
Agreed JT. That’s why I don’t buy that William was waiting to see if Kate was up for the job. She still sucks at it and she doesn’t care. I wish they would just say that Kate was the only one that wanted to marry him.
Looks like the very, very long job interview was a combination of trying to find anyone else who would have him and judging just how much disdain and infidelity she would accept. Congrats to all applicants! She did get a pretty badge and sash recently when she kept her mouth shut about Rose – so that’s got to be a huge comfort to her.
William tested Kate regarding how much cheating she would tolerate. That’s the only thing she was trained for. She remains remarkably bad at all the expected duties of a future consort.
Kate is simply awful at being a consort. She doesn’t need to be Diana, she just needs to be consistent in her royal duties like Sophie. Sophie is the boring royal who doesn’t make waves that William and the RF want. She shows up, gives her speeches, and doesn’t rock the boat. I think Kate has embarrassed the RF (how many times have we seen her bare ass?) and she certainly embarrasses Will. They way he looks at her makes me cringe. All she needs to do is the bare minimum with the way the BM praises her. William chose wrong in Kate. What he needed for his job as future king was a Meghan through and through. I think Meg highlights his poor choice and he knows it. He needed a focused, intelligent, hands on woman to represent the RF in the 21st because they are diplomats in a sense. If the aristos wouldn’t marry him and a commoner was on the table, I certainly think he could’ve found a woman with those qualities.
It also tested her discretion, as well as the discretion of all of the Middletons, which is one of the most important things to William, if not *the* most important.
In the beginning I’m sure he “tested” her and her family by telling them random things and then waiting to see if they ended up leaking to the press, like both Harry and William allegedly did with any new friends, and they never did. That entire family kept its eye on the prize and knew exactly how to show William they were loyal to him no matter what.
Kate and her family (besides errant Uncle Gary once or twice, but he isn’t exactly a reliable source) never went running to the press to give “comments” or interviews out of spite during the breakups, and the one thing Kate has shown consistently since she’s been in the public eye is that she can and will keep her mouth shut. About cheating but also about anything else. We basically know absolutely nothing about her as a person.
i think Charles had the issues with overshadowing. Diana was only a teen on their first walkabout as an engaged couple and he said “I guess I’ll have to get used to the photographers back when she’s around.” I never heard such a common from any other prospective royal bridegroom. Charles was treated as the center of the universe by the Queen Mother which did not help matters any.
Lorelei, I thin your comment was VERY perceptive. He was testing her discretion.
You are onto something. I think Diana embarrassed William a lot with her public displays of emotion. I can relate, honestly, my own mother was very OTT and, as a result, I picked a mate who wouldn’t embarrass me in public (I mean I love her, but would dump her like THAT if she pulled the shit my mother did). So Wills picked Kate. Harry, as you indicate, wanted to marry for love. In the process, he married someone who happens to have all of Diana’s positive traits (benevolence, connecting with people, desire to do better) and not only doesn’t embarrass Harry, but makes him look amazing for picking her. So now Wills has Kate, who incidentally HAS embarrassed him with her flashing, and who embraces him still every time she opens her mouth; and Harry (the stooge for Christ’s sake) who has this charming, smart, well spoken woman on his arm the makes him look like a king. It’s enough to make one incandescent with rage.
I don’t see Meghan like Diana much anyways, they both sparkle and have a natural way with people and are charismatic but they’re very differently personally.
Meghan’s a very stable, focused, and grounded person, Diana was much more free spirited and uninhibited.
To be fair Diana had some mental health issues, and leaned too heavily on her children about the marriage breakup (especially William, imagine a 12 year old boy being treated as a confidante of sorts). I can see why his priorities would have been for steadiness above all. I read a story about William having to watch Diana’s interview with Martin Bashir alone at Eton, while he cried through it, and only after did Diana realise how traumatizing it was for her children and regretted doing it. It was bad parenting (and from Charles for other reasons).
2 very dysfunctional parents the Windsor boys had. It would shape you, and I dont judge them to seek the opposite kind of marriage (Harry- passionate, spontaneous, William- steady, sure, committed).
William is a angry, bitter, “full of rage” (read violent and abusive) person, period; no amount of whitewashing will ever change that. I will never ever believe the Cambstan claims about how Diana “leaned too much on William” blah blah blah, William grew up in boarding school and was away from Diana for the most part. And when he was home, he was a raging person who would pull towels off of his mother to embarrass her because he felt she was flirting with some man. No William was never Diana’s confidante; he was abusive to his mother just like he is abusive to everyone around him.
Thank you!
They didn’t call him “Billy the Basher” as a child for nothing!
Thoroughly agree. The ‘leaning on William’ was just another story designed to make Diana look unstable and unable to manage her emotions, to support Charles’ PR so he wasn’t blamed as the bad guy. And the stories from multiple witnesses about William’s temper and vindictiveness since childhood have been around for decades.
Diana herself told us that she leaned on William. She even gave him her divorce settlement to review.
I am most certainly not a Cambstan but I think there’s no denying that William was parentified by Diana. There are pictures of her at his school the day after one of her bombshell interviews, waiting outside a building for him to come out, and then trying to talk to him and William looks like he’s trying to keep himself from crying. Diana lacked appropriate boundaries with William.
A thousand likes for this comment! It’s absolutely spot on.
I agree Thirtynine, I think William always had a mean streak and it should not be blamed on his parents. Wharfe said he was sneaky.
I no longer believe anything about Diana that comes from the royal family and the establishment. Seeing how they totally make up complete lies about Meghan, I’m certain they did the same to Diana. This story about his being Diana’s confidant are about as believable as the stories claiming Meghan very ally abused Kate and made her cry. I believe none of it. They lied on Diana, smeared her reputation, and then had her killed.
I agree with Kalana. I am pretty confident I came across Diana herself saying that she confided in William too.
That nickname and the story about William asking the one royal protection guard if he could point his gun sight on a soccer player to who was roughing him up in a game in childhood to try to scare him was revealing IMO.
The things we say in jest and all.
Charles and Di did the best they could, given their own loveless and tumultuous upbringings, but they really screwed up those boys. I’ll never blame William for being attracted to the stability and closeness of the Middletons.
What the Middletons offered William was endless praises. They went out of their way to treat him as the golden boy. That’s not stability or any sort of healthy relationship. It’s manipulative.
Their marital situation (C and D) did not prevent them from loving their children. I think the Middletons have issues like making sure the two girls in the family marrying up and Carole supervising Kate and Will courtship every step of the way. I don’t see the Middletons as the great parents, I think it wrong of them to push the girls that way and Carole seemed not to encourage much self respect in Kate. Other mothers would tell their daughters not to tolerate being treated like a doormat.
Is an eating disorder considered a mental health issue?
Yes.
Yes it is treated by mental health professionalssionals.
Definitely.
When someone is in the throes of it, they’re definitely not focused on anything but their disorder.
William committed? Committed to screwing as many women as his position will allow him. Committed to making sure no one but him can succeed at anything, and woe betide them should they outshine Willie. Hardcore committed to doing as little as possible while reaping as much as possible. Yeah our Willie is committed all right. Driven one might say.
Thank you!
The real revelation of this book, no matter what is said about Harry and Meghan, is that the BM story about “Meghan ruined everything” is patently false. He rips away the facade that Wiiliam and Kate have the “perfect marriage” (perfect as long as you don’t scratch a fingernail over its surface), and that William is the perfect FFK. He’s also showing what we Celebitches have seen all along: Meghan was merely the catalyst who turned on the light in the dark room of royal fantasy. Her presence, and the backlash against her, served to demonstrate all of the toxicity and dysfunction that lies beneath the veneer. It’s undeniable now, how rotten the institution of the Windsors is. Maybe it’s proof that royalty on a grand scale has run its course, and no longer has any place in an inclusive society. Maybe it’s the last warning to them that they have to adapt to the 21st century, just as their predecessors adapted to the 20th century. The Romanovs and Hohenzollerns didn’t survive the 20th century. Will the Windsors survive the 21st?
Very well said, absolutely.
Yes, from what I’ve read of Lacey’s book here, I think he is hitting a lot of stuff right on the head. Harry and William’s issues go way back and it is about the dynamic that was formed when they were children. They are products of a very dysfunctional family and a marriage that destroyed their mother.
As adults, they did choose different paths: William will be king (eventually, most likely) and is constrained by that role. I think he enjoys the perks, hates the constraints. His refusal to do the work Prince Charles wants him to do is a classic passive-aggressive slap back to his dad and grandmother.
Harry broke away and refused the role of second best. When a family member no longer plays the role given to him by the family, it causes huge turmoil. The family wants things to snap back to the old ways. They will try to put you back in that box but if you slip out of their hands like water, they can’t deal with it.
This is a classic case of family dysfunction and the results when someone steps away from the drama and refuses to be pulled back to it.
I think William’s definitions of honour and duty are very different from mine …
Lacey is super shady, lol. Calling W&Ks marriage “ a wonderful figurehead for the future”. A symbol without power. Or it seems like without much passion.
Super shady is right! At first I was like, OMG what arse kissing and then kept reading and picked up on the major shade. Backhanded compliments for sure.
The phrase “damning with faint praise” comes to mind
aka he couldn’t find anyone else and he tried for 10 years.
I think the biggest take away from all these exerpts is that mental illness runs deep in the royal family and Harry and William are living proof of that. Neither one of them has had the healthiest life and choose to live it differently, obviously living with their trauma in different ways because they experienced it differently.
I think to black and white it as William as a jealous rage monster or Harry as a weeping angel is just not adequate, and moreover, I find it fascinating that the stories that should be about healing trauma and lasting trauma that they are experiencing gets turned into some weird psychodrama.
The trauma continues to be fueled for as long as society pits them against each other. They were born to compete, and they’ve been doing that in the public eye for their entire lives, they clearly deal with it different ways, one more healthy in my opinion than the other.
I just find the social dynamic of it very interesting. How we want so badly to have a good vs. Evil and one of them has to be one or the other. And how we are the ones who are going to continue that cycle by comparing Kate and Meghan and then the Cambridge kids vs. Archie (and any future siblings.) But nothing will ever be enough.
And yes, the royal family started that vicious circle of competing personalities, and continue to thrive off of creative mental illness and instability.
I agree but I think it will take generations before history can look back and see what happened for what it is really was: a deeply dysfunctional family full of narcissism, greed and petty meanness.
“weeping angel” Shivers. One of the the scariest Dr. Who episodes, ever.
I love this comment so much!! We all try to make one good and one bad and that isn’t reality. People are complex and flawed and both have done wonderful things and terrible things but this is long running and deep emotional trauma.
Best comment on the thread
From where I sit, it seems while Harry and Meghan recognized the dysfunction and walked away the others are still trapped playing their part just like the audience. The reason I support H/M so hard is because they refused to partake of the dysfunction. They have not engaged the media to toss anyone under the bus to save themselves and despite constant provocation have both chosen the high road. When William and Kate take a page from Harry and Meghan’s book and stop destroying others to protect themselves, then maybe their adult selves will be deserving of my sympathies. I do feel badly for the little boys who was trapped between Diana and Charles and especially the little boys who were made to walk behind their mother’s coffin.
Human kind has always categorized in the simplest way possible. Trying to understand a person, with all their dimensions, is a complex undertaking. So we, not trained in psychology, lump into good vs bad. Which has also existed in Greek mythology, way before the Christian ideologies came about. Interestingly enough, I watched Kobra Kai on Netflix and read an interview of Ralph Macchio’s. He said that the concept of this series intrigued him because the Karate Kid was good vs bad and the series takes a deeper look into the actor’s personality and upbringing to show it’s not always so cut and dry. Personally, I was intrigued of the plot from an 80’s movie.
What do you mean by mental illness? There is mental illness like depression, OCD, and schizophrenia, and then there’s mental health. I don’t think they’re mentally ill but definitely not in a healthy place mentally in regard to family dynamics and childhood trauma. I think the harassment and bigotry Meghan endured as a working royal in that family was damaging to her mental health. Anyway, professionals please advise. Also, the whole take on the wives is a bit annoying. Duty vs. love. It’s like they’re talking about the 19th century or Archduke Ferdinand or something. It’s sexist and oversimplifies both relationships. Kate is no loveless victim and Harry thinks things through a lot more than people thinks he does.
And also, I think I should probably say. I do think William and Kate love each other. I dont know if it is the most healthy love from their long past that we have seen, but I think it is there. And I think to discount their marriage as “duty” is a little on the nose.
Not everyone loves the same. For sure, Kate fit the criteria William needed for a wife in his position but to assume that everyone socialite or woman just passed him up and he was left with Kate is a little naive. But also, their romance as is sold to us is not romantic at all from what we have seen in the past, I think they had and maybe continue to have a very turbulent relationship
God, I dont want to defend these people.
Kate was not the first or even second woman he proposed to, pretty well known. Also “naive” is incongruous in this context, since it indicates innocence, and the assumption that Kate was far down the proposal list is more accurately described as cynical (though true).
I think you kind of have a few things right. I think they do care for each other, on some level. But I also think that they both knew that entering into this marriage, and sustaining it, was their job. William would have to do what his father did not do. Duty, in this case, is a duty to put right the mistakes of the past. I think William has always been keenly aware of the image that he is expected to project to the public, and so has Kate. I think that is the duty that he felt beholden to when it came to his choice of a spouse. He had to get this marriage “right” to show that the royal family has adapted with the times. He can’t be seen committing the same sorts of mistakes that Charles made.
But when the primary concern for one’s marriage is the keeping up of an image, there is very little room for being honest, or for any imperfections, none of which is conducive to a healthy marriage. When you’re in the sort of position William is in, and your marriage has to be tailored for public consumption, that comes with its own set of demands, and responsibilities, and one of those was choosing a partner who would be okay with this stifling situation for a marriage, who would deal with these things quietly, never explain, never complain (hah).
Ultimately though, it just shows that the royal family has not actually adapted at all. They still don’t realize that people don’t want facades, they want a sense of honesty, and a willingness to be vulnerable. What this shows is that the royal family is still massively out of step with the public expectation. They still don’t really get it, and it’s doubtful if they ever will.
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Oh the captions we could have fun with in regards to that first pic. Kate looks like she sucked on a lemon.
I think their spouses are influenced from Diana’s death. William found someone boring, won’t shake up the establishment, non threatening, not charismatic and is happy to stay at home and do nothing except raise the kids. So Diana’s opposite in many ways. Harry found someone charismatic, hard working, dynamic, interesting and is not content with just sitting at home doing nothing except raise the kids. So very much Diana in a lot of ways.
If she was still alive, I very much doubt Meghan or Kate would be married to them today.
One day someone is going to have to explain the Royal Family’s definition of ‘duty’, because from where I’m sitting, their ‘duty’ seems to be to smile, look pretty in pictures, visit with the plebs, allow some lucky plebs to visit with them in the garden, and don’t do anything too outwardly extravagant unless it’s ceremonial. They go on an on about duty but it doesn’t seem to amount to much? People just nod their heads and say “yes, duty” very gravely.
Whoever came up with this back in the early 20th century (maybe?) was a PR genius.
Their definition obviously does not include hard work, marital fidelity or meaningful public service. This rebranding of Wills as the steadfast heir is laughable. His treatment of Kate during their 20s was callous and selfish, not “dutiful”, and it made them both look bad.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Will and Kate are two of the most boring people in their loveless marriage. Someone post some old videos of the two of them from years ago, and Man, he treated that girl like crap. They posted the video to prove a point to Kate’s Stans. If he loved her, would he treat her this bad? I think they were even shocked because most of them just started following and praising Kate when Meghan can along. That guy is selfish. Go back and look at old footage of the two of them post Meghan and tell me this guy loves this girl, or she was his first choice. Even on their wedding day, getting in the carriage, she asks him,” are you happy.” Because even she knew she wasn’t his first choice.
I also think that the Windsors have inadvertently set up Harry and Meghan to be the bigger story of royal fantasy than they ever would have been, had Meghan been accepted. If the Sussexes stay together, they will be viewed, in time, as one of the great public love stories of the age. Everyone loves an underdog story, and we all love a fairy tale. What’s a fairy tale? It’s a story of a seemingly lesser, low value person (a youngest son or daughter, usually) , who has to face a formidable obstacle. After trials and challenges, comes victory. We’re seeing the Sussexes live out this story, and William’s petty jealousy has given their story power beyond what it would have had. Whatever the “Legend of Meghan and Harry” becomes, William’s idiocy and the royal family’s ineptitude will have played a role in making it what it is. Can you image the sour faces at Windsor Inc when the prestige film about Harry and Meghan gets made? Or the TV series? Or the serious biography? It’s definitely coming!
IF the Sussexes stay together? That’s a love match. They’ll be staying together.
Even once-loving couples divorce, all the time. No reason to spit in fate’s eye.
I disagree with Kate and William’s decade-long “courtship.” It wasn’t a courtship. How many times did he dump her? How many other girls did he want? Courtship? Please. Kate was the only one who wanted that fishbowl, snobbish, dated life … and her mother too. He “waited” ten years because he had no interest in marriage and was pressured into it, just like Charles was. As for Kate’s abilities, what are they apart from being able to take great pictures of her kids?
And there you have it.
Well, he had said himself that he wouldn’t get married until he was 28 or 30 because he considered himself too young to marry at 22. That makes the “it was to make sure Kate could handle the position” story look like it was made up afterward.
It *was* made up afterwards. Making sure Kate was ready was not a consideration in this. What William wanted was the time to fuck around freely, without being tied down, for a few more years. What the palace PR wanted was for William to have a relationship that was as much of an antithesis to Charles and Diana’s as possible.
To that end, if they had gotten married, fresh out of university, barely 22 years old, not having explored much of the world or relationships outside of each other, locked down to the first “serious” person they’d been with in their whole lives–that invites rather unflattering comparisons to Diana which I imagine the grey suits at the palace wanted to avoid. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the ones who sat William down and “politely” advised him to take his fucking time with this one, just to make sure the optics of it all were airtight.
I hate the word courtship itself (not blaming you, I know it’s widely used in this context).
It sounds so Duggar-like or 19th century: Go ask the parents for permission and then go on chaperoned dates untill the wedding day.
Can’t we just use dating or whatever for the royals? Pretty sure all the princes and princesses of this generation normally dated their sposes first, dates and sex and stuff like that.
Off topic but everytime I see a photo of Charles with his hand tucked into his jacket I think he’s twiddling his nipple for comfort because he’s nervous.
Lacey just blew up the Cambridge facade of a perfect marriage. No wonder he is getting backlash.
If Lacey’s book does well, more authors will follow. It’s bizarre how nearly everyone has toed the line about propping up William’s image while deflecting to blame everyone around him. But if the money is there, the scrutiny will follow.
I can’t wait for more of these reporters to reach the age where they don’t care about/need royal access anymore (not really retirement since they’ll still be writing, but somewhat that stage). I think some great stuff will come out!
I’m reading the book now. It is well-written, much more so than the Scobie/Durand book. Robert Lacey is an experienced and respected journalist and biographer. It won’t be easy for the Daily Mail to manipulate the revelations in this book.
It’s not about duty for William it’s about ensuring he gets to the throne.
I say The Royal Family, should fear Robert Lacey
This gets to the heart of it:
‘I put my arm around my brother all our lives,’ he said, ‘and I can’t do it any more. We’re separate entities.’ The inference of this apparently kindly remark was that William could not deal with his brother as a separate entity – or did not choose to. The new Meghan-fired Harry clearly flummoxed him. William’s ‘arm around my brother’ – his lifelong care for Harry – had always been based on some element of control, and that had now surely vanished.
page 333
William has lost control.
I thought both William and Harry were devoted to Diana. Not true for William apparently as this author says he looked for a wife unlike his mother. Did William view her as the cause of the marriage breakdown instead of his fathers cheating?
Probably. William was raised to believe that as a future king everything revolved around his comfort, happiness and convenience just like for his father. If Diana’s behavior made him feel bad, then it was her fault for not letting things run smoothly. I get the feeling he doesn’t have much going on in the empathy department.
Goodness only knows what sort of poison has been poured in his ear over the years of his King training. At bare minimum, he was probably told not to marry anyone remotely like Diana as she was considered too disruptive and detrimental to The Crown.
We also don’t know Diana- the real person it is entirely possible that Kate reminds him of Diana, just like Meghan reminds Harry.
Harry could have loved one thing about Diana that drew him to Meghan and William another that drove him to Kate.
I think to imply someone didn’t love their mother because they didn’t marry someone that fit the PUBLIC image not real person is wrong.
Or he could have seen all the drama and turmoil of his parents marriage and wanted something completely different.
We don’t know these people and if we dismiss every negative Sussex story you can’t just automatically believe every negative Cambridge story.
My opinion both brothers are jack*as and their wives just deal. I like both wives and have found both brothers insufferable lately.
We don’t automatically believe every negative Cambridge story. These negative stories have swirled about for years – William’s temper, Kate’s desperation to be Queen, etc. It’s not a one-off. The negative stories about the Sussexes are usually one-offs that just don’t make sense (like the whole “Rules for Frogmore” thing that was later proven false.)
Kate publicly snubbing Meghan and Harry at the commonwealth service is on video and really hard to explain away. That was poor behaviour on her part and not the sign of a decent person. Even if everything else she’s been accused of doing is false, that was childish behaviour unbecoming of a future consort.
Oh, please. You Kate stans love to drag Meghan down to her sad and pathetic level with your “both duchesses” nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever that Meghan is married to an emotionally abusive man who doesn’t love or even like her. In fact, one of the main criticisms from haters in royal circles is that he’s too into her, that he adores her and it pisses them off. So no, they’re not “both” dealing with bad marriages and bad husband’s. That’s Kate’s struggle, not Megan’s.
Diana suffered during that marriage, not to mention what happened afterwards. Perhaps William feared to have a wife like that, repeating the terrible story? He is a bit like Charles, he will also inherit his duties.
I think it’s important to note that William probably has had it pounded into him since birth that he must put duty and The Crown before all else. I’m sure it affected a lot of his choices. Like his choice of wife. He chose someone who would submit themselves to him and The Crown.
Harry, on the other hand probably had no such lectures or guidance. Instead got the speech about being William’s support and unofficial shield from bad press. Other than that, he was on his own in figuring out his life path. He clearly floundered for a while like all the other spares in Royal history but has now found his purpose.
I hate what William has become but there were a lot of outside forces beyond his control that helped make him that way.
I think William found that all that was left for him to choose was a doormat that would submit to him and the Crown. If Harry and his friends called Kate the Limpet it’s because William was letting them know that he couldn’t get rid of her or at least he felt he couldn’t get rid of her. I think they knew he didn’t love her or was not “in love” with her. He was just like Charles in that respect.
@MsIam, this implies that William wanted anyone other than a doormat like Kate. I don’t think he was stuck with her, as much as he realized that he will never have anyone else who will put up with him, not for lack of trying. She’s the only girl who will be with him, until the very end, no matter what, who will not mind the infidelities, the disrespect, the lack of affection etc, which is exactly what he wants–someone who will put up with all his shit, and never divorce him. He hit the jackpot with Kate in that regard.
Is it duty to country or duty to doing whatever William sees as in his best interest?
More like duty to keep the bread line of the monarchy going. Other articles claim that he objected to Meghan because he thought she would be bad for the monarchy. So his objections there were selfish and not about concern for Harry reportedly.
I’m old enough to remember all the Vanity Fair stories about Diana, and the books written that had her crying over her m arriage and William trying to comfort her. There was even one with Diana locked in a bathroom crying and William outside the door trying to comfort her and slip tissues through.
Both of those boys saw and heard too much, and it caused them trauma. In the excerpts I read, when William split off from Kate, he always went back as he found no one better. He does love her and she him. In love? Not sure. But of course, he would be ultra careful in whom he picked having witnessed hasty marriage and its aftermath, Divorce for him would be very difficult and painful.
Harry was always more spontaneous an d reacts more genuinely. Will his marriage last? I have no idea. For now, at least, Meghan seems to be the dominant partner– video chatting to all kinds of groups regularly–seemingly driving the narrative. Will this come to grate on him, as Diana’s popularity did to Charles? Who knows?
Both brothers need continuing therapy.
LOL. “Found no one better” is a sanitized way of saying none of the women he truly wanted would put up with his shit beyond a few flings. In truth William would’ve much preferred to marry an aristocrat because that’s the type of woman he kept chasing throughout the 2000s. That one quote in Tatler–the one in which Kate and Carole couldn’t believe their luck in finally getting the ring–shows how fortunate Kate was that William couldn’t land any of these women for the long haul. There’s a reason Charles advised William in 2007 to stop stringing her along and make a decision. There’s a reason her parents begged Will to marry her after years of just floating along.
That’s also an narrative you’re trying to push with Harry and Meghan too…quite similar to the royalists and trolls who complain about her “not knowing her place”.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who caught that Meghan shade.
I caught onto that Meghan shade but….I lowkey agree. I definitely care for her a lot more than literally any other royal at this point but I had the same concerns.
Meghan was always the “dominant” one publicly (quotes because I actually believe FF and People where her friends said Meghan is more “traditional” behind the scenes by cooking for him/letting him make big decisions), but right now they’re on her turf. In the UK, Harry was the rock for her. Now it seems like she is based on how he’s currently acting. This is simply a new dynamic that they’ll get used to.
Something else is bothering him (I don’t think it’s their marriage at all), but it’s not new to hear couples finding past endearing traits to be annoying as time went on.
Harry has probably had as many zooms with different orgs but people focus on the royal women more. Meghan may get more attention then Harry but gets most of the hate& blame for the decisions so not sure jealousy issues would be the same. But on that note I do I wonder if it grates William that Kate does get more attention than him & there is way more indispensable, future Queen puff pieces on her than him.
William & Kate got together when they were at uni so personalities aside& even if it was the healthiest, bestest relationship ever, I can understand theory of waiting until had more life experience etc before marrying.
But given Charles overcame the barrier & can still be a king as a divorced guy & divorces are much more common in the U.K than in the 90s you’d think the prospect of a royal divorce wouldnt be as daunting.
Harry seemed clear he wanted someone who could do the job & Meghan being used to charity work, meeting dignitaries etc should have been a good fit on paper. Harry& Meghan were also mid 30s when they met so you’d expect life experience at that stage meant having a quicker courtship wouldn’t be as shocking.
Plus with Harry not anywhere near the throne- apart from the standard caution you’d understand the Firm having with her being a divorcee and an outsider, overall the ‘concern’ about rushing into marriage seemed overkill at least for the reasons given
In one respect, Meghan reminds me of the Queen Mother.
George VI always pushed his wife (The Queen Mother) to the “front-and-center” as she was better at the “front-and-center” business than he was. George VI was not jealous of his wife because he saw “her” success as “their” success.
I believe Harry feels the exact same way George VI felt. Any successes Meghan has is not “her” success it is “their” success.
@Bay – I agree completely. Harry is not threatened by Meghan. Remember his huge smile at the Together launch? It’s a clear difference between him and William. Harry loves his wife and he LOVES when other people love her. He’s secure enough to know that Meghan’s popularity doesn’t affect his (if anything, it makes him more popular) – or he doesn’t care if it does affect his.
@Bay, I dunno, I’d be careful comparing Meghan to the Queen Mother. The Queen Mother was better at being in the front and center, yes, but also, she wasn’t pushed there, she took up that space, whether anyone liked it or not. George VI was content with this because she made him look good, but didn’t do it out of magnanimity. He just went along with it.
If he’d been someone different, someone who demanded that he be the center of attention, someone who was charismatic enough to compete with the QM, then this would have been the set up for a clash. And the Queen Mother clashed with other strong personalities in the family all the time, as she competed to try and exert her own influence over the household.
Meghan and Harry are different from all of this. I think both of them have a natural charisma, but they’re not dominating front-and-center personalities so to speak. Not even Meghan. There’s a real sense of graciousness to them that I think sets them apart from those types of people. They can command attention, if they need to, but they’re okay not doing that, and ceding the ground to others who they feel would be better served by the spotlight. The Queen Mother was not that sort of person.
@A – I understand all that you write and agree. What I was trying to say was that, based on the many books I have read, George VI was not jealous of the success of The Queen Mother. Harry is not jealous of the success of Meghan.
I was not trying to say that Meghan and the Queen Mother are alike because they are not. I meant to say that the way George VI handled The Queen Mother’s success reminds me of Meghan & Harry.
Charles wanted heirs he liked the concept of marriage but never faced realities. He did not understand why Diana minded Camilla being his friend and so on. So if he wanted to bring these children in the world to keep the succession assured, he needed also to think about the realities. He should have at least tried to go in with a clean slate and maybe thought of his spouse and children instead of himself. He was brought up in a rarified atmosphere where his grandmother made him the center of the universe. So may problems.
I really feel that story about the bathroom door is unfairly used against Diana as evidence of her inappropriately sharing/leaning on William. Logically, if she’s locked herself in the bathroom having a cry, she’s doing it for privacy- so the kids aren’t involved or witnessing it. Goodness knows she had plenty enough to cry about. William realising she was upset and poking tissues under the door to comfort her, was one of the nicer s t ories I’ve heard about him. I’ve written this before, and don’t want to labour the point, but I think it’s a story that actually reflects well on both Diana and William, and is a scene I imagine that could be played out in many families going through an unhappy divorce.
There are also a lot of stories about William being somewhat covetous and creepy towards Diana in childhood: embarrassing his mother in front of security detail by stripping her down, the shoving after the interview, and other instances.
William feared being eclipsed by a wife, but he ended up being outshone by his brother and his brothers wife. That’s why he hates Meghan so much. He wants to be a star but stardom and duty are not one and the same, and have different demands. As for Harry and Meghan, they need to take advantage of this spotlight while they have it and build something sustainable for themselves and their future outside the Royal family. I think their role was already resented and being diminished within the Firm and it would have gotten smaller, that is if they didn’t succeed in trying to cause irreparable harm to Meghan, either physically or mentally, which was the intention.
William seems to greatly rely on the stable lifestyle that being the FFK affords him so I can see how that translates to duty but I think it’s deeper than that. One thing that always stuck out for me during William and Harry’s childhood was the instability.
William and Harry’s parents’ marriage deteriorated before either was age 5, the parents were unable to parent because they didn’t have stable parents to show them how, the back and forth between visiting parents at a seperate location from an early age, the instability in nannies, the media games, Diana’s meltdowns, domestic disputes that became violent, the divorce, Diana’s death (which in reality was at the end of William’s childhood), none of this amounts to a stable childhood for either of them.
The biggest lesson William took away from it all was an obsessive need to present stability. Hence why Kate is FFQ and will continue to be FFQ despite whatever happens in their marriage. William tried to control his brother to complete that stablity and is angry Harry doesn’t see it that way. For William being king is his reward and cure for his broken childhood but it’s his alone.
Harry of course can’t have a crown so he did what the rest of the world does when they find themselves traumatized by their childhood: he vowed to do better. He got help to deal with his trauma and I think he started to see the cracks within the institution when his mother died but I think his one solace was the military. It gave him skills and independence not afforded to him by the palace which is why he was devastated when he was pulled out (I think William’s doing) and decided to go into therapy. After putting in the work in therapy, he found a woman whose values were similar to his and understood his trauma and complexities because she had similar trauma and complexities of her own.
At the end of the day, William doesn’t have to live in the real world and uses the monarchy to have control in his life. Harry chooses risk and to live his life independent of the monarchy, come what may. Unlike most members of the monarchy, Harry has the skills to survive outside of it successfully. The articles about Harry being unhappy on the are a reflection of the monarchy, not Harry. Because none of them can exist or have any concept how to live without a castle, they can’t see how Harry can be happy with this existence.
Carole Middleton appears to be the kind of mother who would have no trouble guilt tripping William. He has been having sex and cohabiting with her for several years. Kate is almost 30. She has given her youth to him. Who else would have her now? Do your duty now, as you promised. Duty being the key word here.
Any cash poor aristocrat would take her in a heartbeat if William and Kate were to divorce. The Middleton money is solid. But I think William is stuck with Kate as Queen.
The true test of Kate’s star power amongst her ‘Rangers’ is when she starts aging or a new generation of Royals start coming of age. I suspect that is the reason for all the botox, fillers, veneers and 70’s big hair.
Kate has worked out that attention on her is contingent on her being painfully thin and tearing down anything around her that even resembles competition.
Anyway when the wrinkes really start to appear in ernest even that FFQ Consort crown won’t feel like the price she has made it to be in her head.
“The Middleton money is solid.”
Is it???
Kate wouldn’t be getting Middleton money since they aren’t dead yet. It would be Windsor money in any divorce settlement, just as Diana got it from Charles.
It’s solid as in they have cash, it’s there, and no dumb English aristo looking for a second wife will ever question where it came from.
Nic I don’t think there’s enough money left after this year for the Windsors to give her anything close to the contemporary value of Diana’s settlement. And even that settlement wiped out Charles – albeit temporarily. Each decade they are becoming more and more cash poor. It will take a decade for them to recover from Give and they might not recover at all.
I did think that during the breakup (I thought it would be permanent), Kate would have found a wealthy man to marry like Pippa did. She would not be “ruined.”
I don’t think this would work on William. Guilt tripping only works if the person being guilt tripped has a conscience, and isn’t totally selfish. William is a selfish person. The way to appeal to him isn’t to discuss it in terms of what will happen to Kate, but rather, what will happen to him, if he doesn’t choose Kate as his wife?
I can see Carole “reminding” William that they, they Middletons, have done a great deal for him over the years. They’ve opened their hearth and home to him, been there for him, been the family he wishes he’d had growing up. The image Carole crafted of the Middletons is probably the biggest emotional pull for William than anything else. He doesn’t give a shit if Kate is going to be okay or not. He only cares if he’ll be okay.
Like I said in my post the other day, Bill looked at his parents and chose a woman he knew would never get into his head and/ or manipulate him.
Also I disagree with Lacy re the 10 years. It was not a long audition, rather Bill just realised at some point that Kate was the only woman within his circles willing to tolerate his bull-crap.
All was ok until Hazza chose a strong minded woman he loved. And given that Bill likes to assemble his toy soldiers and play with them as he sees fit, he soon realised that Meghan was as malleable as Kate and therefore by extension he had lost control over Harry, cue the long awaited karma clash, which would finally prompt Harry to choose himself and his young family over his brother.
In Buddhist terms Harry has confronted his past whilst Bill merely seeks to avoid it.
I do not see Meghan being “malleable” at all, not one little bit or one iota.
I meant to say ‘NOT’ as malleable….. arghhh
The things is Harry actually chose both. Love&Duty He just didn’t carry it out in the manner in which the BRF wanted. And thanks goodness for that!
Love and duty are not opposites of each other. Love requires duty in order to exist at all. Loving someone else requires us to be dutiful and responsible in how we demonstrate our care for them, because it’s a conscious, mindful decision you make, every day of your life. You can’t be careless in love, because that’s how you hurt people.
And this is not just applicable to romantic love either. This applies to our relationships with our family, with our friends, and with every other human on the planet. To love your fellow human means to treat them with decency, and that is the highest duty of all. It requires diligence and is a responsibility unlike anything else in this world.
The fact that William, a future monarch, chose Kate out of duty, and the fact that he has thus far utterly failed to respect her on any level, makes me wonder whether he’ll be a dutiful, responsible monarch at all. How can you care about the people you represent, how can you be trusted to respect them and treat them with decency, when you don’t even treat your wife, the woman you love, with any respect and decency whatsoever?
It’s obvious that Harry married Meghan because of true love. They are absolutely devoted to each other and they will have a long and happy marriage.
William on the other hand, is a cold fish. Kate is a Stepford Wife. It’s not a love match, it’s a business deal. Sad for their children, I am.
I also think the instability of his family life made William a perfect “target” for the Middletons.
The idea that the Midds are perfect has never really sat well with me. It’s clear that both Kate and James experienced bullying at school. James seems to have been the worst affected. I believe that is part of what drives Kate (and her family) to be so focused on securing proximity to Royalty.
Why else would anyone stay in such a loveless marriage and soulless institution. Especially when your in-laws look down on you with so much disdain, don’t trust you and frequently brief against you in the press.
Also I personally would not want to subject my family to that level of scrutiny and ridicule FOR LIFE if it’s not based on love.
Even someone like Meghan who married into the family for love was brutally honest about the havoc it had reeked on her personal life so you really have to question what the Midds are really getting out of this. There are far easier ways to secure wealth and with this level of scrutiny comes a lot of restrictions. So that only leaves the need for Prestige. That aside I wouldn’t wish marrying into that family on my WORST enemy.
I can only imagine the amount of shite the BRF have on the Midds at this point. They’re not powerful like the Spencers, so I can only imagine the wrath the BRF would heap on them if Kate decided to cut loose from Bill or have a wobbly bc of one of his affairs. He firmly holds all the cards in this relationship and it shows.
Also I once flat shared with a guy who I think I also went to Marlborough and he was a hot mess mental health wise and a lot of it was to do with the hazing that some of the students endure. They always seem to seek out the outliers and I think the Midds would have fit that bill perfectly as they had no real Aristo roots and connections.
@Mignonette, I agree. I want to preface this by saying that I don’t think this means the Midds are fully deserving of our sympathy because they were so downtrodden on account of their class/background. But it serves nobody to pretend like they didn’t face any classism at all, or that it wasn’t a factor in motivating Carole Middleton in particular.
I’ve had very very few experiences with the aristo/aristo-adjacent crowd, and even from those experiences, the way they treat people who aren’t “of their class” is very palpable. They treat you like you don’t even exist. Their eyes kind of look over you and slide over to their next aristo-adjacent friend, and they talk over you like you’re not even there. If you speak to them, there’s a clipped acknowledgement of your existence, but nothing else. They’re polite, obviously, and they’ll make small talk, but unless you have money, or are descended from some titled dipshit from the 18th century, good luck trying to be friends with these people on any real level. Their circles are very, very insular and closed off, and they take great pains to keep it that way, bc they really don’t want any of us filthy peasants getting our hands on their power and prestige.
So yeah. I have no doubt that the Middletons were treated rather shabbily by that crowd. The lower classes are essentially invisible to these people. And I do think that sort of classism did shape their lives in a huge way. Carole is a striver. There is nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of other things wrong with Carole, but I honestly can’t say I hold her social climbing ways against her. I can’t stand the pretense that she puts on, and that William and Kate also put on, but the opportunistic social climbing itself, I’ve actually come around to that. The idiots within the aristocracy believe that their wealth and privilege is their god-given right, and I fully support anyone who’s trying to take advantage of them for those two things. They created this system, they uphold it, they gatekeep it, so imo, they get no right to complain about the drawbacks.
I can explain the aristo part somewhat if you wish to see it from their point of view. Yes, the aristos can be very insulated and socially awkward. But it’s not impossible to be friends with them if you put in the time to show yourself as trustworthy. However, they have been taught their whole lives to be careful and guarded with people not in their circles. Assuming you’re European, you understand the history of Russia circa 1918 and France circa 1792. If you do not know who you’re talking to, you are taught early on you could wind up with a knife in your back just because you have a title. It is incredibly stressful to be in that position. Most people think it is snootiness but they are human beings at the end of the day even if some hate acting like it. This has been a defense mechanism for a very long time and these families can’t be expected to change overnight.
Is is paranoia? Most certainly. Is it reasonable? I see both sides and I’d rather everyone gets along. But I hope you have the empathy to understand they are trying to survive in their own way.
William went for duty over love? So did his father, choosing Diana over Camilla. Look how that turned out.
Only when Charles chose Camilla over duty was he truly happy.
William learned the wrong lesson. No wonder he’s perpetually angry and nasty.
I don’t think Charles had any intention to marry Camilla and have her be the mother of his heirs. If Diana had turned him down he would have found another aristo; Diana would not put up with the mistress and Camilla I think had ambitions. Charles should really not be the only person who should be happy. He was involved with Camilla for years and was never deprived of her
I will continue to believe, until something major comes along to change my mind, that Camilla was NOT interested in marring Charles during their first relationship go-round in late 1960s-early 1970s.
If this had been In the old days, once Kate slept with William she would be considered inappropriate as wife material. He would have to look for someone with no past.
@Tessa, I disagree. The problem is not whether Kate sleeps with William. The problem is whether Kate has ever had any serious relationships aside from William, which she really hasn’t, and hadn’t when she met William for the first time, at 19, in St. Andrew’s.
If this were the old days, Kate would not even have been considered for marriage on account of her commoner background. She would have been a fling, set aside, and would have either married an impoverished aristocrat who needed the money, or another wealthy heir to some fortune. But, on the off chance that that wasn’t an issue, then chances are that, in the old days, she would have gotten engaged to William right after St. Andrews, or while they were still in school for that matter, and they’d have been hitched at the green age of 23/24. So hardly much of an improvement on 19, which is how old Diana was when she got married.
The way Robert Lacey is choosing to frame things in his interviews is aggravating. He’s doing the same shitty, stupid, thing that tabloid journalists have been doing for several years now, which is try and set up this sly dichotomy between William and Harry, where William is framed as objective, duty-bound, & level-headed, while Harry is passionate, emotional, intuitive, but ultimately reckless.
Look at the language he’s using here. Tthey took two opposite lessons from it,” seems neutral at first glance. There is no value judgement made about the lessons each of them learned. But then contrast that with the words he uses to describe William and Harry’s approach to their marital relationships: “William took the lesson of duty,” vs, ” [Harry] was going to go for love.”
Lacey additionally states that William took “inspiration” and “strength” from the prospect of his future duty as king. Which, first of all, LOL, shut the fuck up Robert Lacey, who do YOU THINK you’re FOOLING? Second of all, consider what the “opposite” of things like “strength”, “duty” and “responsibility” are. If Harry took the opposite lesson to William, then what is Lacey implying here? He’s implying that Harry is “weak” and “irresponsible,” and uninterested in upholding his duty as a member of the royal family. Harry might be “going for love,” but ultimately, he’s still being selfish, and William is built up as this self-sacrificing martyr for the cause.
There’s also the dichotomy that Lacey is trying to build between Kate and Meghan here too. William “politely” (LOL) asked Kate if she was prepared to take the job on, after an almost 9 year courtship. Harry, who chose love over duty, proposed to Meghan after two years. The unspoken bits we’re supposed to fill in here is that Harry, in choosing Meghan, chose someone who was “unsuitable” for the role. And again, I am obliged to say, fuck you Robert Lacey.
Finally–I thought about this a bit, and I’m not sure what exactly William “learned” from his parents’ failed marriage. The only thing William did differently from his parents was keep Kate on the hook for almost a decade before proposing to her.
Aside from that, there actually aren’t that many differences in the nature of the two relationships? He met Kate when she was 19. Diana was 19 when she essentially got into a long term relationship with Charles. Diana had never really been in a proper relationship with anyone else before Charles. Given how these two met in uni, this was probably the first proper, long term relationship for both William and Kate (William’s dalliances don’t count as long term, serious relationships here). Kate was as much “without a history” as Diana was when she first met and hitched her wagon to William’s star. She has been with the same man since she was 19 years old, which is what Diana was expected to do. And William was fucking around with other girls while he was with Kate. Charles was also doing the same thing.
The only thing William did differently was make sure that Kate was fully aware of what she was getting into with this marriage. She had ten years to unlearn unrealistic expectations she might have had–expectations such as a husband who could be counted on to remain faithful, to treat her with actual love and respect, and an institution/family that did the same and wouldn’t constantly treat her like garbage.
Charles’ “mistake”, apparently, was failing to “politely” inform Diana that she should be okay with being treated like shit all the time. The fact that this is what’s being framed as “responsible” behaviour is just. Again, there’s just no way that Robert Lacey is this dumb or this unaware.
As a fellow writer, and someone who has read his previous works as research, I feel the need to jump a bit in Lacey’s defense. Can all of these things Lacey say be true and not necessarily be an insult to Harry (if true)? I don’t read it as him insulting but telling us where the personalities clash and appeasing the tabloids who ask istupid questions that he needs to answer so his book sells. We know the William narrative is full of propaganda bs because…”legal reasons/threats.” But Robert Lacey is a highly regarded, highly respected British historian and writer who isn’t going to compromise himself for the Daily Mail but be conciliatory enough to get them to write about his books. I would highly recommend his books Majesty, The Kingdom, and Aristocrats which may assist people in understanding where he’s coming from.
I’ve just finished the book and his tone is odd throughout – a kind of simpering chumminess at times when he addresses the reader directly which contrasts with a bit of an elder statesman tone elsewhere.
The only real startling revelation is about Camilla.
What I really don’t understand is the Brits being so impressed with royals who give up their personal identity and happiness to serve as a figurehead. There are always comments about the Queen and her “duty” and “sacrifice” in comparison to Harry. What exactly has she sacrificed? She got to have a private life and Lacey pointed out in his book that she didn’t do the “show the baby right after birth stunt” Meghan was slammed for not doing.
You know Meghan doesn’t even overshadow Harry, just the Camb’s.
Meghan and Harry bounce off of and support each other and it’s obvious and beautiful to see.
I do think that the divorce of PC and Diana had a terrible, terrible impact on their children.Each parent openly and covertly courted the press and were not above undermining the role of the other parent .Not a great example of anything . Can you imagine being those boys and the constant tabloid headlines ? Home life and school (snarky remarks from others -must have been hell .I remember hearing the story of William pushing kleenex to his sobbing mother under the story and thinking , if true , how sad this was and how wrong that a young child felt compelled to be in the protector role and the parent did not shield him from this .I think William ‘s lesson from his parents’ marriage that his wife needed to understand the serious role she was taking on and on a psychological level , that he needed in his marriage a partner with whom he could create a stable and calm environment ( and the death of his mother would only add to that wish ).In a way , he may be continuing the protector role but with a different purpose.So my view is William took his time , lived with Catherine in a pretty rural part of Wales (if you have been to Wales, rural means coming across homes with outdoor toilets -I kid you not ), did his helicopter job and stayed under the radar.Given their potential future path , this also meant they could live alone and undisturbed which would not be possible if and when they married .When they decided to get married , unlike his father , he took steps to address potential problems and support Catherine which she has mentioned in interviews. I think likely (and the haters won’t like this), that Catherine (like Meghan for Harry )gives William a sense of calm and stability and family which can be evidenced by their own quiet space at their norfolk home with their children.
…and yet he runs off for ski vacations with the boys and random blondes.
He wouldn’t be so incandescent with rage all the time if his spouse truly provided him with a sense of calm.
Is it Kate’s responsibility to provide William with a sense of calm? He should be the one taking responsibility for his behavior.
I understand your points but this same quiet Norfolk William is running around with Kate’s dear friend Rose.
Harry has evolved into a functional individual who is self aware of his needs. It would explain why he was so sure that he met “the one”. He was no longer the ‘spare’ and had more freedom to look beyond the usual. His ‘duty’ did not include a particular type of partner.
Unlike William.
But William was unknowingly ‘chosen ‘ , it is obvious that he would have happily married at least two other women if either of them had agreed.
(It is on record of him shouting ‘I”m free’ during one of the breakups during the 7 year wait.)
Maybe one of the reasons why he waited as long as he did.
He did not want a wife who would overshadow as his mom did his father. Kate waited him out, her aspirations were enough until she saw the genuine love between Harry and Meghan. (That’s why she cried at the rehearsal).
William, like monarchs in the past fully expected to have a secret mistress, after all. He married for duty not love. After 3 children, Rose emerged and insecure Kate messed it up.
((By the way Rose would’ve made an excellent Queen Consort). My take on the Tatler article about Kate.))
Rose is discreet and levelheaded and aristocratic , born into status like William would’ve been able to smooth the angry moods of Will.
Harry’s growth, maturity and sense of duty would’ve made for a functional monarch. Not that he would ever want it.
I stress-‘He would not to be King’.
The Commonwealth is poorer for not having someone with his temperament waiting in the wings in the future.