Throughout the week, people on Twitter and Instagram have been talking about Armie Hammer and whether or not he’s a cannibal. I’m not joking. It turns out 2021 is just as bad as 2020. The backstory is that an Instagram user going by House of Effie began posting screenshots on her then-public Instagram. The screenshots were of her text messages/DMs with Armie, going back to 2016 and through 2020. The relationship was dominant/submissive, with Armie the dom. You can see screenshots of some of the NSFW messages here, including Armie’s alleged proclamation that he is “100% cannibal.” Here’s just a small part of what he was saying:
Armie Hammer reportedly said he ‘wanted to cut off’ his girlfriend’s toe and ‘keep it in his pocket’ according to new disturbing screenshots leaked by a woman who says the actor sent her vile Instagram messages about rape and cannibalism. The alleged messages, said to be sent between October 2016 and February 2020, include conversations about BDSM, in addition to numerous sexual references to cannibalistic acts and ‘blood-sucking’.
The authenticity of the screenshots has not yet been verified, however the woman behind the House of Effie account shared new alleged correspondences with Hammer on Tuesday, in which he appeared to refer to her as his ‘slave’.
‘You just live to obey me and be my slave,’ a message purported to have been sent from Hammer’s official Instagram account reads. ‘I will own you. That’s my soul. My brain. My spirit. My body. Would you come and be my property till you die?’ The message continues: ‘If I wanted to cut off one of your toes and keep it with me in my pocket so I always had a piece of you in my possession?’
It comes as one of Hammer’s exes, writer Jessica Ciencin Henriquez, has spoken out saying she believes the shocking messages ‘are real’, and later wrote: ‘It takes an army to hide a predator’ in reference to the allegations.
In a second alleged exchange of undated messages shared by House of Effie, Hammer allegedly writes: ‘I feel like the same way you are on one side of the slave spectrum, I Am on the other side of the master spectrum and I can’t ever imagine another slave. You are mine and I am yours. No matter what happens. And we’ve tested each other to the extremes.’
Granted, I’m not deep into BDSM culture, but from what little I do know of it, the messages seem like pretty typical dom/sub role play and while people are focusing on Armie’s messages, this particular woman he’s messaging is very into it. I’m not saying that there aren’t toxic, abusive elements to Armie’s whole deal, but in this narrow circumstance with this particular woman, reading through the text messages, all I really got was that two adults were enthusiastically consenting to be in a BDSM relationship. Meanwhile, “sources close to Elizabeth Chambers” are speaking to the Mail:
Armie Hammer’s estranged wife is ‘shocked and sickened’ by the actor’s alleged messages that discuss rape fantasies, BDSM and cannibalism and ‘believes’ the women stepping forward, a close friend exclusively told DailyMail.com. The alleged messages date back to 2016 and some are as recent as February 2020, a time period where Hammer, 34, was still married to his wife Elizabeth Chambers, 38.
The two announced their 10-year marriage was over in July, as a source close to Chambers admitted she was aware of his infidelities, including being romantically involved with Lily James as DailyMail.com revealed last year, which led to their split. But Hammer’s alleged extreme kinks are a ‘complete shock’ to the mother-of-two, with the friend adding: ‘Armie appears to be a monster. A lot of these women have reached out to Elizabeth and although she didn’t want to admit it to herself at first, she knows now they are speaking the truth. Armie had a whole other side to him that she wasn’t aware of. Whether it was always there and he kept it hidden, or something happened that changed him completely, she doesn’t know.’
The insider claims that one of the women who contacted Chambers about her experience with Hammer was left so traumatized that she entered an ‘intense rehab and therapy program because of his emotional and maybe physical abuse. He preyed upon her when she was coming out of a relationship. He made her feel very uncomfortable, the things he wanted to do made her very scared.’
Yeah… so was Elizabeth blindsided or had Armie’s other women come to her throughout their marriage? Plus, people f–king knew that Armie has always been kinky. There have been widespread rumors about his BDSM lifestyle and interests for years, including sh-t he liked on social media. Honestly, I always thought that Armie and Elizabeth had that kind of relationship. Maybe they didn’t though, and Elizabeth is horrified. As for the one woman who apparently went to Elizabeth and said that what Armie did was emotional abuse, possibly physical abuse… yeah. I believe that too.
Update: Clearly, I have not seen all of the messages – the ones I linked to above were ones of just a consensual sub/dom relationship. I believe that Hammer has harassed and abused women.
Photos courtesy of Backgrid, WENN, Avalon Red.
In one of the messages, the woman straight up says she said no and he kept going. There is nothing “normal” about it.
Yup! Very scary. In another message board, a woman who knows more about sub/dom relationships said that his messages clearly show he is a dangerous dom, that he does not understand or care about the responsibilities that come with that position. And whatever you may think of this particular sexual preference/fetish/kink, there are boundaries and he does not follow them.
Assuming that these are real, I find it shady that this girl edited out almost all of her replies. That tells me that she was probably into it or why not include tgsm if you were so horrified? Shes just pissed that he ghosted her and she’s trying to get back at him. Unless she produces her replies, I don’t trust anything she says.
She’s posted many MANY receipts and there are other women coming forward with their own. She’s posted her replies where she explains bluntly she said no or that she’s not into something. She’s posted photos of what he did to her neck with a belt after promising not to clasp it. This is not a jilted lover scenario even though he will probably try to frame it that way. He’s deeply disturbed and dangerous.
Mollie, this too!! I did notice in one of the videos of her scrolling through the conversation, he’s telling her he can’t see her anymore, and she goes off thanking him for his time, telling him how much he meant to her, clearly not agreeing with the breakup.
I’m still undecided on all this, it’s just so strange and now with his denial, things will be even weirder.
He has just responded, unsurprisingly he said those are all B-S claims.
I wouldn’t have expected an apology at this point but if he has entirely denied it, he knows he did something bad/illegal.
Right, at least he had to withdraw (or was fired) from the movie with JLo.
I just went through all the screenshots on IG… towards the end it gets harder and harder to read. He is absolutely demented, it’s way beyond kink between consenting adults, it’s one step away from murdering someone, potentially even by ‘accident’. He has almost no limits (yet) and apparently has been getting inundated with DM’s from women saying he can eat them if he wants since all this news broke. It’s very disturbing and psychologically damaging to these young women who got caught up, infatuated with a huge movie star. So sad, my heart breaks for them.
This is some warped Patrick Bateman level scariness.
I took a deep dive a couple nights ago (don’t judge me)… I’ll just say the recording doesn’t sound like his voice and the way he talks is very much like someone pretending to be a celebrity, “oh I just so happen to be talking to *another famous person* and you know what? they acknowledged you”. It could all be so easily faked, it’s all from tumblr.
If they are fake (I believe they are 100% real), then I’m not sure why armie is staying quiet and just turning off his comments on Instagram. Most innocent people would come out and say they are false and that they are going to take legal action.
Oh, and the fact that his ex wife says she believes they are real is very telling as well.
You mean his Trumper exwife who is playing with the separation dates to make it to 10 years, and who will probably use this story to push for full custody of the kids she parades on social media? She could be involved, for all we know.
And wasn’t AH’s last post, around New Years’, about him stepping back from social media? The timing would be convenient.
If this is all true, I’m certainly not defending him, I’ve been through the process of recovering from an abusive relationship and it’s not an easy one, or a subject I’d take lightly… but in the past few years we’ve all become pretty discerning and downright skeptical thanks to political news, fake news, and conservative agendas… so why are we all jumping in to believe this?
It’s not all from Tumblr. Screenshots and photos have been circulating for a while now. Too many receipts.
Yes, his silence speaks volumes. I believe they’re real and I believe the women are speaking the truth, and I’m guessing his career is over now.
I like that movie but that book is sick. Armie should have been in the Shades of Grey movies. Funny thing people would say he’s too oatmeal when he is anything but, in reality he wants to carry sex slaves toes in his pocket! Hahaha! *puke*
Is he sliding into the DM’s of young women/girls on Instagram? I had a lot of trouble following this story. Probably because of the cannibal aspect. I mean…
Maybe just a cannibalism fantasy ? If he is really cannibalism,,he needs medical help
I would argue that if he’s having “cannibalism fantasies” he also needs medical help. But I’m a vegetarian.
@Darla: i am bad but I laugh to « but I am vegetarian « . Even cannibalism fantasy is in minimum gross and worrying
Yes, and he also had a harem of “kittens” who he “broke down” and turned/wanted to turn into slaves.
I see.
Me too. Apparently he spoke about cutting the heart out of a live animal and eating it raw and he had actual fantasies (hopefully not realities) about doing stuff like that to women??? It sounded beyond creepy and way beyond BDSM/kinky talk to me but I’m not an expert soooo…. but yikes!!!!
I have to say if you actually all of it, ALL OF IT, it is absolutely f*cking horrifying. The few screenshots I’ve seen in articles are nothing. Holy sh*t I stopped reading it several times and felt physically sick and repulsed at parts and truly disgusted at how terrifying other parts were. Combine this with public comments he has made on social media (even showing obvious and public interest in the taste of human flesh!) and in interviews… it is a truly disturbing picture. Some of the things he says you can tell he is 1 step away from murder and seems to have already crossed the boundary to rape as evidenced in his OWN messages. He hasn’t even attempted to deny it. The brutal and obvious psychological torture of some of the recipients of his messages too is stomach churning to read.
I genuinely feel profoundly disturbed from reading it all.
The issue is where to draw the line between kink-shaming and if these women were abused. Kink between two consenting adults is one thing and it feels weird to read someone’s private messages that were meant to be private. Is he an abuser? The women involved will need to say and he should be held accountable for that.
One of the women at least accuses him to ignore safe word and at this moment, the abuses start .
BDSM is all about trust and consent
Ah, yeah. Definitely. That’s horrible. That’s absolutely crossing the line of consent.
The girls were also really young (teens or barely out of their teens) and were fans/starstruck by him. It’s clear he love bombed and groomed them, for example promising them monogamy and that he only had eyes for them and “couldn’t even imagine” being with another girl, when he was doing the same thing to numerous women.
It’s also clear that none of the women who have come forward were in the lifestyle or had any prior experience with kink or BDSM prior to meeting him and that they went along with it to keep him happy and because they thought he loved them. It’s one thing to play hard with people who are in the lifestyle (there’s entire websites and forums full of women who enjoy slave play advertising that they are looking for masters!!) but introducing someone who is brand new to BDSM to hardcore slave play is really difficult and requires a sensitive and empathetic master who will take things slow and listen to the sub’s limits. Sliding into the DMs of teenage fangirls looking for someone to groom into a slave – and doing stuff like ignoring safe words – is just straight up predatory.
As liberally-minded as I am, I have to say BDSM culture is one that has always astounded me, especially where it involves physical violence and rape fantasies. With that said, I’m not one who shames others and believe people should mind their business as to what goes on inside other people’s bedrooms. In any case, a line has to be drawn somewhere and that’s where consent comes in. So at whatever point the girl said no she no longer wanted to participate in this anymore (and if no is part of their kink, at whatever point the safe word was used, I suppose). Only the girl can say.
But even consent is not a black and white concept and I would argue that there are certain activities that should require a higher threshold. For instance, a starstruck 19 year old with no BDSM experience may not meet the consent threshold to have her toe mutilated to prove her allegiance to a Hollywood star. Isn’t this the problem we have with the adult industry and how they weaponize the signed consent form to shut down criticism of exploitation?
It’s a very grey area indeed and makes the industry rife for exploitation. We also see something similar in sex work. After decriminalisation, impressionable girls or submissive partners are then lured/forced into sex work by much older men or overcontrolling partners.
I trust there are some things that are still illegal despite ‘consent’ being given. Certain agreements can be nullified (or considered non-enforceable) despite being signed by both parties.
Agree. There is consensual and there is taking advantage of young girls who are your fans. All you need to do is look at how some young girls talk about him to know that they really are in no position to be making rational decisions about their bodily autonomy when being dm’d by him. He has a duty to make sure he is choosing fully consensual partners who are completely aware of what they are doing. Otoh, the woman who revealed the messages does sound like she was upset because he was dumped.
One of women at least accuses him to ignore safe word so he would become rapist .
We knew he liked bondage since several years .
Now we know why he is divorcing
I don’t buy his ex wife didn’t know about his « kinks » but I can totally believe she didn’t know the sexual abuses with other women
I believe the wife didn’t know the extremity of his “kink”. In fact there’s an interview exert floating around wherein he says that he would never do that stuff with his wife because he respects her or something. Makes you wonder what he thinks of the women he does it with and how safe they can possibly be with someone who’s evidently just taking out his rage against their dehumanized bodies.
Yep, his wife knew a little about the kinks, but perhaps not the extent? Who knows. Did she know about the other women? Who knows. But grooming and not respecting safe words? He’s a pig.
The article @Julie mentioned is this one (https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2013/06/the-lone-ranger-featurette-watch-now/), where he says:
“I used to like to be a dominant lover,” Hammer says, explaining how things have changed with wife Elizabeth Chambers. “I liked the grabbing of the neck and the hair and all that. But then you get married and your sexual appetites change. And I mean that for the better – it’s not like I’m suffering in any way.”
“You can’t really pull your wife’s hair. It gets to a point where you say, “I respect you too much to do these things that I kind of want to do,'” Hammer said.”
This clearly means he also didn’t respect any of the side pieces. Horrible.
Disgusting. The part where he ignored safe words and kept pushing is when he turned unto an abuser who needs to be cancelled. The messages gave me the creeps.
+1
so Lily James got up in that marriage too?
ETA- I know this whole thing has awful parts to it- I am not dismissing those. Lily James is just…everywhere?
At least now we know what is her talent
I don’t think anyone knows that there was an affair of any sort between James and this dude.
I thought his wife said it was. God she doesnt want to be named in that divorce petition, or the Dominic West thing will be like a fond memory!
Yeah, sounds like they hooked up on set. Some say that was the final straw that led the divorce. Apparently his wife caught them sending racy texts back and forth while filming. James was allegedly referred to as ‘Adeline’, her name in the call sheet for their film Rebecca.
People who were on set with them say they were very openly flirty and spent a lot of time together, so with that plus the alleged texts (and the fact that she was having problems in her relationship with Matt Smith at the time, and later hooked up with another married guy), it makes sense. I think/hope that she was in a bad place because of the Matt Smith thing and will look before she leaps next time. Because she doesn’t need to be associated with this.
Allegedly her and Matt split because he wanted children and she didnt/ wasnt ready. Hes nearly 40 and shes 31. Maybe her attraction to married men who already have children was her reaction to that? Not that its any excuse, and she chose the douchiest cheaters she could! Or shes into bdsm, after her liaison with Chris Evans!
Yes, it was reported that the crew confirmed they were spending a lot of evenings and off-set time together. And using “Adeline” can’t be a coincidence.
That’s what I focused on too! Lily James AGAIN?!!!
Excuse me while I go and puke 🤮
I don’t know man. I feel nauseous and freaked out in the extreme.
Porn has done so much damage to society, rape and suffering should never have become a product to consume and enjoy. The very real harm that occurs due to this passivity towards abuse is horrendous.
Also AH is horrific. I hope there’s some level of accountability brought against him.
I 100% agree.
Yeah, there’s no way to reconcile “rape fantasies” with being a decent human being.
I am way too vanilla for this shit from anyone who wants to get in my chonies, are you joking me?
I don’t think not being into cannibalism makes you vanilla 😂
LOL Thank you Evenstar I don’t know about nicegirl but I feel better now.
this genuinely made me chuckle, thanks Evenstar
Have you watched the videos and seen all the screencaps? It clearly wasn’t consensual (and grooming 19yr old fans who have never played with even light BDSM before into hardcore rape and slave work is… very dubious) and some of the messages are incredibly disturbing even for those of us in the lifestyle.
The parts about being turned on by ‘Don’t F*** With Cats’, claiming to have killed an animal in order to eat its heart, bringing his infant on the park rape role play date, and some of the more extreme texts about cannibalism, all go far beyond what most people would consider kink.
The parts about ignoring safe words and wrapping a belt around the girl’s next in the middle of sex without warning when she’d previously told him not to, are straight up predatory.
I knew about all of that but the infant part. Where did he bring his kid?
Thank you for mentioning this. I’m so irritated mainstream outlets are ignoring all of these more disturbing details (they keep leading with the Michael Phelps line). I’m worried this story will soon be buried. Apparently he has a rom-com with JLo coming up? There’s no way I can watch him in anything after knowing what he subjecting this girl to
It’s more than just the cannibal fetish, he repeatedly says he fantasizes about raping and killing people, and the DMs state he ignored or didn’t even set up safe words and did things he agreed beforehand not to do (clasping a chain around the girl’s neck). He’s the prime example of an abuser hiding behind the language of BDSM to prey on younger women. There are many “Doms” like him (except for the cannibalism), he just got exposed. For them, crying “kink shaming” is another way to hide behind the community to avoid consequences.
The word psychopath springs to mind.
Many more women are coming forward with similar stories. This isn’t about kink shaming – it’s about abuse and assault.
Not here to kink shame and speculate whether or not he’s actually a cannibal. The disgusting part is where he repeatedly ignored safe words, engaged in acts that he told the women beforehand he would not, and I’m disgusted he said he had to make his daughter be by herself (she was super young when he sent this) because he was so turned on at some point.
The women coming forward say they were emotionally abused and that one had to go to the ER because of the abuses she suffered from him.
As for Elizabeth… who knows if she knew. I remember a long time ago she messaged a girl that was messaging him on Instagram (Elizabeth herself posted this on her page)…. so she had access to some of his DMs? Their marriage always struck me a super odd. I don’t understand why he got married in the first place.
Look at the House of Effie account. He actually had a sexual relationship with this young girl for years. In the messages to her, he details fantasizing about that one time he “raped” her on the floor with a knife, and how she tried to make a run for the door – and says it turns him on thinking about breaking her ribs next time. She also describes him putting a belt around her neck and closing the clasp, even though she told him not to, and shows pictures of her severely bruised neck.
I initially thought that it was innocent kinky stuff, but I do now believe he used his fame and charm to pressure several young girls into some dangerous sexual stuff, way beyond what they agreed to.
You know what? On further reflection, I don’t give a single, solitary f–k about kink shaming when it starts to cross these lines. I care about WOMEN and the normalization of depravity, brutality and violence against WOMEN under the guise of “kink”.
100%
Using a kink as a way to be violent towards women means you are abusive.
^^^^^^
YES
100% agree. A lot of this has come from porn and I believe some young men and woman just *think* this is what sex is now. My friend is a sexual health advisor and she is frequently shocked about teenagers knowledge of sex that has come from porn.
Yes, absolutely. Porn has turned many people’s conceptions of sex into something freakish and violent, and genuine female pleasure is almost nowhere to be found in most of that trash.
Agree. I’m not sure some of the stuff he fantasizes about is even kink. Seems like he actually just gets off on hurting women.
Yes, this.
I really agree Jessica. Fantasizing about rape, mutilation, violence, etc…that’s just depraved. When you combine the nature of his so-called ‘kink’ with the fact that he doesn’t seem to practice consent with these people, it paints a really appalling picture of a man who believes that women are objects to be utilized and then discarded.
Time to turn the tables. I might have to corral some kittens, chains, whips, pepper spray and a bit of electric shock therapy by way of tasers and dominate. While he’s incapacitated, we can take a break, shove a table up to his dangling body an all enjoy a nice dinner of pork sausage with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
Have you seen the movie American Mary? It’s kind of this.
This is gross. Whatever people consent to do is up to them, but if any of the women were pushed to beyond their boundaries, it’s not OK. I have a feeling this might be the tip of the iceberg.
I believe Elizabeth. I think she probably knew she was being cheated on (or they had a open relationship which I think it’s more likely) but thought they consensual, average flings. Wouldn’t be the first time a man hides his true self from his wife. I doubt she knew about the abuse.
All I can think of is how many times Kathie Lee Gifford fawned over Armie and his wife on Today and how much she loved them.
I saw this trending on Twitter a few days ago. Because of course it would be. But then it seemed like someone admitted the DMs were false and I didn’t pay anymore attention. I was surprised celebitchy hadn’t covered it since it seemed like a great ‘haha just the kind of bizarre celebrity scandal we need.’ But now more messages have turned up and more than one person has come forward? It all seemed so bizarre. But if more is coming out then, yeah, it seems like they’re real and he has a lot to answer for. Even if it was just hardcore bdsm, which, at least in some cases, it seems NOT to be, the fact that some of these women were just 19? Granted, they’re legally adults but they’re still teenagers too and with a huge amount of difference in life experience, etc.
Yes, someone admitted to having faked them. The “more people coming forward” are using the exact same stories and screencaps. I’m surprised we’re all just assuming it’s real without much confirmation.
The photo of his hand showing a tattoo is interesting, but I’ve never been able to make out that tattoo.
The message claiming it is fake was, in fact, faked. I’m following House of Effie and she did not send that. There are videos these women have taken of their phones to prove they’re telling the truth. And if some of the stories that have come out sound similar, it’s because he used similar techniques on all these young women.
But then I saw that person had pretended to faked them, and were caught admitting they had lied about it. Honestly, that he hasn’t come out and denied anything speaks volumes.
Somebody faked messages from House of Effie when she was revealing all this stuff. That pissed her off and she’s revealed even more since then. She accused his publicist of being the one who faked the messages but it could’ve been any Armie fangirl.
Holy cow!
This story keeps getting crazier. Should make the Death on the Nile PR fun. You’ve got him and Letitia Wright (though her PR nightmare will likely be long forgotten by then.) his is crazy enough that it won’t be most likely even though the promotion is months away. Plus it’s an ensemble but he’s really the male lead. Could you imagine if this had come out when Rebecca did when lily James was already in a scandal. No one would e been doing any pr.
Good luck when you have to explain this to your kids someday, looking your daughter in the eye after she’s seen all this.
I think his marriage was only open on his side.
Remember the interview he gave around when he got married and he said something along the lines of “There are just some things you do not do to your wife in bed. It’s off limits because there’s a level of respect that comes with being a wife.” That has stayed with me and never made sense. Welp, now it comes to light.
Its the Madonna/ whore complex. His family are quite religious I think.
I was thinking about the same article! I knew he was cheating on her when I read that because …um…if you’re not going to fulfill your BDSM fantasies with your wife then you’re obviously doing it with someone else. I feel bad for every single woman in this story. He really gives BDSM and fantasy roll play a bad name. Consent is essential in healthy play and the minute you breach those boundaries you’re assaulting someone, plain and simple.
This is very personal, but i kind of don’t believe in „healthy and consensual bdsm“ anymore… when I was in a really shitty place in my life with nowhere to live, no job and on the outs with my family I had a boyfriend that was a „Dom“. He was way on the nice side for Doms, I think, not disgusting like this, but calling me kitten and imagining me on a leash and „I own you“ and some slaps would happen and I liked it and thought I was kinky and his „owning me“ kinda made me feel safe, like someone would take care of me.
A few months later, stressed out but happy about a new job and having gotten a dog it started to feel wrong.. and then me trying to set boundaries didn’t go over well. (Go figure)
At least in my case, I wasn’t so into it anymore as soon as I felt better about myself, which imo is a really bad sign. I only liked it when I was low on confidence and self-esteem. And I think he liked to do it because he’s really insecure as well and could only handle a submissive „kitten“, not a grown woman with a lot on her plate. (and a very unsubmissive pupper!)
I‘m kinda thinking about talking to him about it now and being like: this is not just „fun, sexy“ stuff that you see in porn and that everyone is doing; this is very much affecting the other person deeply, and it might feel „good“ to them for still unhealthy reasons and childhood issues. If you‘re doing that with/other girls, please remember that. Also maybe go into yourself and find out why YOU need that so much?
@Katinka – Your observation really hit home for me.
“I wasn’t so into it anymore as soon as I felt better about myself, which imo is a really bad sign. I only liked it when I was low on confidence and self-esteem.”
I still enjoy some bdsm role play every now and then, but after years of therapy, I realized that I wasn’t at all into the 24/7 lifestyle that I’d thought I wanted.
I don’t care how hard people play, but boundaries and consent are not to be trifled with. Armie sounds like a dangerous predator.
I don’t think it comes from a healthy place either. People act like you aren’t allowed to say that, but I think people are drawn to it due to some pretty dark causes in a lot of cases. Trauma, social conditioning, low self-worth etc. I’m not in people’s bedrooms policing their behavior so don’t bother coming for me, folks, but I think the whole scene is a safe haven for men who want to abuse and hurt women and have it somehow be “acceptable”. I’m not stopping people from doing what they want or like, but I’m also not going to change my opinion on this. It’s a slippery slope between being sex positive and using ideologies like sex positivity, choice feminism, etc. to reinforce misogyny and abuse of women. Thank you for saying this and for sharing your perspective.
Completely agree. The way they have co-opted feminism to prevent discourse on the roots of this urges reminds me of how High Hefner and male pornographers co-opted feminism for their own capitalistic ends.
This kind of broad generalizing is extremely dangerous. There are lots of people who are in kink who are perfectly psychologically healthy and are engaging in it in a perfectly consensual and adult manner. Furthermore, suggesting that any woman who engages in submissive play (ignoring the fact that plenty of submissive men exist, too) are stripped of any sort of sexual agency is highly problematic. By that definition, even vanilla sex can be a violation of consent if roles aren’t clearly outlined and negotiated in advance, and we all know from personal experience that consent in a loving adult relationship has as much nonverbal communication as it does verbal. We have to assume that women engaging in sex with consent are responsible for their choices to do so, regardless if it wound up being healthy for them at all. That is part of being an adult is taking responsibility for the behaviors that you engage in.
One of the basic tenets of any good BDSM is negotiation, care, and consent. Those are reiterated over and over again as part of the fundamental part of the practice. It’s part of why they emphasize over and over again that people should not pursue these relationships blind and should do research to understand what goes into making a healthy BDSM partnership (and that’s actually part of why age differences are common in that community – somebody needs to know what they’re doing). There are definitely people in the community who may also suffer from trauma or mental health issues, but the desire to be dominated is not inherently harmful or stems from low self-esteem, no more than the desire to dominate is inherently a sign of bad character or a desire to harm. It’s also problematic to imply that people with trauma or depression in their background can’t be trusted not to conflate their D/S desires with the want of abuse. There is plenty of discussion in the broader community about how to navigate those issues, and the places where it is legitimately questionable and is often deterred is when you’re dealing with a situation when the person had no D/S leanings before experiencing trauma or psychological upset. There was a reason that community was angry when the 50 Shades of Grey novels came out because they explicitly ignored all of the basic safeguards put in place by the larger BDSM community to keep predators from taking advantage of people.
Katinka’s situation is unfortunate, and I’m sorry it happened to her, but it is not typical of BDSM. It is abuse. The man she was with was not practicing any of the basic requirements of maintaining an ongoing dialogue regarding negotiation and consent, nor did he did respect or boundaries and consider her psychological status before he introduced those elements into their sex life. For most people in BDSM, that would have been a red flag from the start. She had the misfortunate of encountering a predator, which is tragic and does happen, but that’s exactly how predators roll – they go after the vulnerable and uninformed. You’ll encounter them everywhere in life, and not in specific niches like BDSM, which in larger cities is heavily policed by its own members to weed those people out.
Finally, and I’m going to be very blunt about this, this idea that we can “inherently reveal” that evil of BDSM or show it’s true colors it’s incredibly damaging, not just to people who practice it consensually, but frankly to people who may inadvertently get lured in by abusers the way Katinka was. Forcing a niche sexuality underground does not make it safer. It just pushes it out of the mainstream where people are less likely to be open about it, less likely to discuss issues they encounter, and give rise to more opportunity to predators to take advantage of those who are isolated and unaware without a larger community about to educate them. The danger isn’t in normalizing it. The danger is in making it so shameful it isn’t discussed at all.
I agree with you Veronica S. I’ve been in the BDSM culture for a long time and i would say it’s even one of the safest places to be, but it really requires a LOT of communication and trust, and to be mentally healthy as well. I practice with my partner and when we role play we talk so much beforehand and afterwards, and check in with eachother how we feel about certain things/acts. Communication, consent and trust are essential… but there are many people who hide under the guise of BDSM to abuse unfortunately. I think things like fifty shades of grey popularized BDSM into the mainstream but disregards the important tenets of BDSM – I think this is why there is a lot of misconceptions.
BDSM is not the problem (I am speaking as someone who’s queer and kinky myself); porn is not the problem; criminal abusers are the problem.
It is healing for me to have a safe encounter within boundaries that I set and that I CHOOSE.
I understand where you are coming from Katinka and I think many people have different motivations or it comes from other places to be drawn to these role plays and lifestyles. But I think there is healthiness in BDSM, especially if it’s women who are on the dom side (i am saying this more from my experience). I have been into BDSM play for a long time (however for me it’s NOT a 24/7 lifestyle, I go through phases although I am married and practice with my partner), but I won’t lie to you, being a dom has been one of the most satisfying roles I’ve played in my life after suffering a lot of abuse from men throughout my life (not related to BDSM). While I am respectful of the sub’s boundaries, safe words and I tend to not engage so much in physical hurt, there was something quite empowering for me to have men as “slaves” where I was calling the shots and it was more about my pleasure than theirs. So I think there can be both sides to it. I do encourage women tho who dabble in BDSM to experience the dom side more than the sub side – that’s because we grew up in such a patriarchal world where we have been conditioned to prioritize men’s needs and normalized violence against us, that it is interesting to explore what it’s like to actually be the one in power – in a consensual environment of course!
BDSM when engaged in by two sober (during interaction) adults is one of the most healthy sexual interactions you can have. It always gets a bad name, dragged down into connection with the kind of abusive depravity described here (and agreed, not honoring safe words is absolutely a problem because true BDSM relationships are based on trust). But I honestly can’t stand how any mention of BDSM is usually by those who have no idea what it means or have never engaged and it gets instantly linked to the most extreme porn (which is also an area of contention on the feminist front) and to abusive and psychopathic behaviors. A truly loving BDSM relationship is one of the most beautiful things ever and involves *much* more open sharing and communication that honors each person’s boundaries and desires then the usual vanilla, feeling-around-in-the-dark-and-hoping-to-hit-the-mark kind of everyday “relationships” in which people freely engage, as if the latter is somehow pure and right. BDSM is wonderful and freeing when engaged in a healthy manner and has nothing to do with the horrors described above.
@Anna I’m not involved in BDSM and nor do I kink shame, however I don’t think making sweeping statements about vanilla sex is the best way to combat what you perceive as misrepresentation of BDSM. The “most beautiful” and “most healthy” is entirely subjective, what is beautiful and healthy to one person may be toxic to another. I also don’t think that characterizing vanilla sex as fumbling around in the dark without a clue and void of communication is particularly helpful either when it comes to advocating for respect and understanding of different forms of sexual or romantic expression.
I agree with Gretchen, Anna. You made no favours to the BDSM community with your post. And sorry, as a DV survivor, I don’t consider ‘healthy’ (for myself) such a relationship. I’m married but if if my husband was to come out with such sexual play, I’d be out of the door afterwards. Put a hand on me violently for any reason and it’s over.
So please, don’t judge…. if you don’t want to be judged.
As someone who was in the BDSM community for a long time, I think Armie sounds toxic and manipulative as hell. Anyone who knew what they were doing would avoid him like the plague.
Exactly @GR
Well, there you are, then. Proof once more that we just never know what some people like to do and will do, regardless of the facade they present to the world. *shudders*
We knew he was into BDSM because years ago he liked a bunch on twitter (armies not the brightest bulb…) Looking at the messages seems like he’s getting carried away with the whole messed up fantasy. A very disturbed kink that I doubt is a desired trait for a Hollywood leading man.
But, my biggest question is why on earth would he text it?!?! He truly is as dumb as a bag of nails.
Privilege and entitlement. Good looking white dude from super-wealthy family; of course he’d never get into trouble for anything, right?
Also I think some very disturbed people actually want to be seen and known for what they are because they’re convinced, by the intensity of their own twisted needs, that what they’re feeling can’t be wrong.
His “kittens” often times end up in the ED after hes done with them. They are also stating that they need therapy because of his toxicity and abuse. So no, this isn’t normal and no this isn’t BDSM.
and people were blaming Lily James for the breakdown of his marriage..
Why do celebs do this and think they won’t get caught??? So dumb! I don’t know a lot about bdsm but I’ve heard participants are very big on consent, safe words and not being overly intoxicated. Sounds like he wasn’t sticking to these rules and is an abuser. Wouldn’t it be easier to hire a discreet sex worker instead of messaging girls on Instagram if you wanted these fantasies and not risk all these screenshots?! This isn’t looking good. I hope his wife stays in the Caymans with the kids and away from him!
I’m sure there are a million websites and hookup places where he could find women that were actually into BDSM, but then he’d have to follow the established rules. That’s not what he wanted. He wanted to groom inexperienced young girls and manipulate them into these abusive relationships under the guise of “kink.” A discreet sex worker wouldn’t give him that same thrill.
That’s where I think it’s a larger issue at play here. Having an inexperienced partner in kink is fine if the younger person is newer to the practice and needs guidance, but if he’s trolling for it outside of a BDSM community, that’s more questionable. There are men and women who can be found outside of kink who are into kink and just aren’t into the general scene, but most of them have at least been involved in those communities or done their research on the basics before getting into them.
I actually remember him stating in an interview in playboy that he liked being in the dominant one sexually, and that since his wife was a feminist, she wasn’t into “pulling hair and grabbing her by the neck”. I’m sure he strayed from the beginning, to live out that side of himself (which obviously goes far beyond just pulling someone’s hair during sex).
If it’s completely consensual BDSM, then there’s nothing wrong with it. Rape fantasy and the like are things that are absolutely done in that community, but they are often well discussed in advance before people meet and act them out. There’s plenty of narratives BDSM couples run through that may be offputting to people with non-kinky sexuality, but most of it is highly negotiated beforehand. If it any point he’s not respecting safe words, ignoring negotiated lines, or breaking consent, that’s not BDSM and means he’s a toxic abuser invading the space. Places with larger BDSM scenes like Seattle or New York are extremely vigilant in trying to weed those people out exactly because some of the stuff they can can be dangerous; if he’s an abuser, he’s using his privilege to get away with it.
If the behavior is all above board but he was cheating on his wife, that’s a different story, but frankly if he’s that into kink and she wasn’t, you might actually have your problem right there for part of why that marriage fell apart. There’s a lot of people in BDSM for whom kink is an essential part of their sexuality and find it almost impossible to detach it from general sexual attraction.
Agreed @Veronica S and appreciate your comment. For some, being in a BDSM relationship has been incredibly freeing and healthy. No amount of comments to the contrary can change that truth. And those who disagree also just need to understand that there are people who are naturally inclined to this kind of interaction, often from a very young age and not connected to any trauma that “made them that way”. Humans come in all forms. This is not at all justifying abuse. At all. I am justifying people’s right to express their natural passion in a healthy, loving, and communicative manner with consenting adults who care for each other.
It’s really unacceptable how many people on here are conflating abuse with well-negotiated BDSM. Frankly, it should be downright insulting to any sensible, sexually active adult. If you took the word of some women on this thread, literally no woman has sexual agency in a patriarchal society and we’re all being violated to some extent every time we have sex. Talk about stripping yourself of the power your ancestors fought so hard to get you.
I’m deeply disgusted by the way some media outlets are dealing with this issue. This man is a sexual predator, and all I see is people laughing about the this cannibalism thing, or validating a fake screenshot made by the “Call me by your name” version of the Larries to discredit everything these women, whom this man has abused psychologically, physically and sexually, are exposing. If some of these media had bothered to go on Instagram and follow these accounts they’d see that there’s enough evidence to prove, not only that this shit is real, but the narcissistic and predatory behaviour of this man. R*pe is not a kink ffs, and this person seems like he CAN’T have sex with women if there’s not violence involved. And yet all I see is people making memes about it.
I’m going to have to look into this more. Like Kaiser,I thought I was reading an amusing exchange between consenting adults. I even RT an SATC joke about it. (He ate samantha, that’s why she isn’t in the reboot). But yall comments have me worried now.
I don’t like him, I’ve never liked him, and now I feel validated lol.
Damn, confirmation that Lily James was one of the women Chambers found out about and basically James ruined their marriage.
To be fair to her, I think she was one of many, so you cant really blame her alone. Unless he had ‘ feelings’ for her or the messages between them were of a more romantic nature than just the kinky sex ones.
Eesh at this point I’d be thanking Lily for the out with the likes of him.
Lily James is the one that ruined their marriage? Um, what?
Wow, this was not the celebrity news I expected to stumble upon TADAY. Yikes yikes. I don’t know about the BDSM community, but this is really creepy to me. I used to think he was so handsome. Man why do all these actors have to end up being trash people?
Yuck.
I’m kinky and his messages send up all kinds of red flags for me…
He’s an abusive ahole. He groomed these woman when they were young and starstruck. Continuously ignoring safe words and being manipulative asshole. Can’t even think about the cannabinol stuff and lastly rape fantasy is gross either way. Sorry don’t care if it’s technically “kink shaming” if your into rape fantasy you are disgusting and need to go to therapy.
Can we all start to kink shame? At least for some kinks? I know some people here are treading on water and I admire the sensitivity but honestly I question the sincerity and quality of man that gets off on the thought of inflicting pain and degrading women. Especially when that man apparently said he doesn’t do it to his wife out of ‘respect’. He said the quiet part out loud.
I agree but want to raise the point that it isn’t always *just* the guy who is the degrader and abuser. I knew of a couple who broke up because the guy wanted his GF to inflict serious pain on him and she wouldn’t, because she loved and respected him too much, and wanted him to get help for his self worth issues.. he didn’t, and found a woman who would beat the shit out of him, all the while knowing how vulnerable he was. I don’t really understand the BDSM community and I don’t want to judge, but yeah, I do also wonder.. why are you doing this?!
No. It is not acceptable to paint an entire community with broad strokes over the behavior of one individual, especially one that is firmly planted in negotiating consent and outlining boundaries. The fact that he’s going outside the BDSM community is where your red flag is – because if he had actually bothered to go after women who are active in those communities, he would have been caught out much faster by people who are trained to see the warning signs. He may be attracted to D/S play, but the way he goes about it is predatory and abusive; both of those things can exist at the same time within a person, but that does mean wanting to dominate someone is inherently abusive. He chooses to make it abusive. That is the problem.
He’s a predator. He just happens to be using the front of BDSM as his pathway. Plenty of abusers use others. I dunno, should we ban bar dates and missionary because some women wind up raped in those scenarios?
Human sexual behavior is significantly complex, far more so than enters mainstream dialogue. Unless you have scientific studies backing the idea that people who practice BDSM are inherently psychologically damaged, suggesting otherwise is both unacceptable and harmful. Suggesting adults can’t separate harmful neurotic behaviors from what turns them on sexually is infantilizing and insulting. Even suggesting adults with neurotic behaviors who find comfort in utilizing D/S in life within a safe, consensual, well-negotiated environment is wrong is problematic, especially if they’ve undergone other types of cognitive behavioral therapy that allowed them to make those distinctions personally.
You seem to have some very strong opinions about BDSM without really having any experience with it, which, fine, but at the end of the day, that is not the problem of the people in BDSM who are practicing it safely and consensually. That is, in fact, your problem to resolve. Projecting your insecurities about complex issues of dominance, submission, and gender onto a community that talks about it in far more depth than the mainstream, and justifying it by using an example of a man who is working outside the community and uses predatory tactics, is not okay. Sexuality is not going to become less complex and multi-faceted just because we wish it to. That’s something you need to reconcile with yourself instead of expecting others to do it for you.
No disrespect to you V, but you need more people. You will never and I mean NEVER convince me that a man who fantasizes about raping women is altogether fine and healthy. And as a sex worker my clients who request that stuff it’s always from a place of trauma. As for the INSISTENCE and NY or San Fran has great scenes even though I know “reputable places” that covered up abusers and abuses b/c they “didn’t want BDSM to get a bad name” instead of actually taking care of victims this BDSM is the most amazing thing ever and #empowering argument get’s weaker everyday.
Real Talk
Until I see peer-reviewed, large sample sized, by MA PHD Board certified concentration in sex therapy psychologists, long term studies about the positive outcomes for people who engage in play. People in the community need to speak entirely for themselves and quit trying to convince everyone that it’s not rife with issues.
I think I’ll be fine since I’ve never had a problem finding and communicating informed consent in my own relationships, and if I have encountered them, I’ve worked through them like most adults. I’m more insulted by the idea that I’m somehow incapable of making ideas about informed consent as an adult woman in a sexist culture than anything else. This idea that I’m inherently more at risk should I engage in BDSM than other sexual behaviors doesn’t really hold to me since abusers are pretty much everywhere – and plenty of victims get to watch their abuse covered up elsewhere, too. That’s not specific to BDSM circles. It’s wrong everywhere it happens.
A person going to a sex worker for a rape fantasy probably does need psychological help…because they’re going to a SEX WORKER for a fantasy that requires immense amounts of negotiation, communication, and trust in setting up beforehand. It isn’t something to dump on somebody who isn’t a professional dom/domme, and most people I’ve encountered wouldn’t recommend it outside a strong monogamous relationship where both people were experienced in BDSM. Of course your experiences are negative – those people are asking something that cannot possibly be provided consensually within the context of a single encounter with a random sex worker.
I have said repeatedly that the delineation that must be acknowledged and respected is consent – if he sent those rape fantasies to those women without establishing a D/S negotiating dialogue and some limits, then it’s a serious problem and isn’t BDSM. That’s harassment. It’s a violation of their consent because it’s broaching the limits of acceptability in normal sexual dialogue. But if they started that dialogue and consented to engage in it, that’s something entirely different, and while it may not be as cleanly cut in terms of negotiated consent as we like, that’s not the same as straight up harassment and abuse.
(And again, for the last time, at no point did I state BDSM should be used as an alternative for real therapy. Seriously, where the hell did I say that.)
With all due respect, Veronica, your take is wrong on many counts.
Perhaps you never had a problem negotiating your consent but many have and had. I am a rape survivor repeatedly raped by an ex who turned a yes for sex in a sexual rampage (before you ask, he got reported but he’s still at large, police blasts the victims).
Before you ask further, he also claimed in his statements that I was consenting to rough sex and BDSM. You have literally no idea how many abusers and rapists use that excuse, even during murder trials.
Likely you mean well, but please acknowledge other people’s concerns too.
Yeah, I don’t care if he has a boner while he does it – abuse is abuse.
I’m really tired of the BDSM community pretending all of what is done is ok because someone ‘consented’. They hide under the guise of sex positivity but all it usually means is other ways to subjugate and degrade women.
“I’m really tired of the BDSM community pretending all of what is done is ok because someone ‘consented’. ”
Exactly. In my opinion it’s fine when the two members of the couple have consented from the start of their relationship to behave in a certain way during sex. I only know of a couple who’s like that. It’s fine.
But yes, BDSM and kink are also a smokescreen for rape and abuse – I know it well unfortunately, I’m a rape survivor and my ex responded to my report “it was just rough sex and BDSM”, pity I had consented to the sex and not to the ‘rough – BDSM’ part.
This guy has the dna of a serial killer. He might not have killed anyone (that we know) but he most likely wants to. Blood, pain and wanting to physically harm a woman for sexual pleasure is what makes a serial killer, murder to them is their sex. Rape and cannibalism ‘fantasies’ are not really just fantasies if he’s actually meeting up with women and carrying out extreme sexual acts on them. How far has he actually gone and is he able to control these compulsions because if he doesn’t have them under control then he’s a very dangerous man.
I don’t mind two consenting adults enjoying a bit of BDSM between each other, but not only does he hold the power (Dom) but he also has the power to cover up any crimes that he may commit against these women’s will. I hear his family is worth billions.
As for the women, I totally get how they would get swept away by him. If a super hot A-list movie star messaged me telling me how f*ckable and desirable I was, I’d be bloody ecstatic.
So well put. I seriously wondered reading the messages if he would have killed someone if he had gone undetected. The one where he says he lost control and only saw a white light while biting this girl all over scares the living daylights out of me.
Omg yes. This goes beyond BDSM, I feel like I’m listening to the exposition of a serial killer documentary. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts and consume a lot of content in the genre. I can almost hear the serial killer nicknames in my head, which makes it easy given his last name.
He said in some interview a few years back that he’d like to have dinner with the Marquis de Sade above anyone else!
@Neon That explains everything! That comment alone..
I’ve become conflicted about women coming forward like this with the explicit details of sexually abusive romantic relationships publicly on social media, in articles. I am NOT talking about rape or harassment at work but in personal sexual relationships.
– What does sharing screenshots of DMs accomplish?
– What does this woman want from not only from Armie but from us, this public?
I’m uncomfortable because it seems exploitative and ultimately destructive to the women coming forward. It seems like it’s become another form of celebrity entertainment news.
I think FKA Twigs shows a great example of how to share the details to a public while not continuing the cycle of exploitation. She is suing Labeuf, and clearly stated why in the NYTimes and how she weighed the risks to her own psyche about moving forward with the suit and articles. But of course, she has money and a high-profile…I worry for these women who have been attacked by Armie–a freaking billionaire–coming forward. How will they be protected?
I just hope that women who have bad sexual experiences with famous men don’t feel compelled to share especially when they are not ready or prepared for the fallout.
They are sharing because he was abusive but they played along with him for the most part because he groomed them and love combed them, made them feel special. They would probably not have any grounds for a lawsuit as the BDSM stuff is kind of a grey area. Maybe have compassion for these girls. Maybe Armie will see his ways and got into treatment.
I do have compassion which why I am concerned how they will be protected after sharing this information? Do they access to therapists? What if he sues them?
It’s a difficult situation for the women to be in. But regardless I am very proud of the women that do come forward against famous, rich powerful men. It’s a very brave thing to do, but one thing I have noticed is that as soon as one person speaks out, so many other women do come forward too, which helps back their case up. If this woman didn’t leak these DMs then he would have continued to meet women online and potentially hurt them.
It’s incredibly worrying for any victim of sexual assault to speak up, because in half the people will side with your abuser and accuse you of being a liar, but it is so important too.
Atleast now we know to avoid Armie Hammer and Shia Lebouf at all costs, not that there was much chance of me running into them.
Oh this sucks. I used to find him so hot. The BDSM doesn’t scare me away, that only makes him more interesting to me. The eating flesh/drinking blood/crushing bones however, clearly indicates to me that he has serious problems that have nothing to do with being kinky in bed. He straight up wants to hurt someone badly. He reminds me of those serial killers where the wife/girl friend/family knew nothing about this other secret life they were living.
Thank you Jessica and Tuntmore for your kind words, and Detritus for writing more eloquently what was supposed to be my actual point… (English is not my first language, also)
I liked the drug/alcohol metaphor- the BDSM community‘s adherence to consent is admirable, but I agree, consent is not everything and doesn’t mean it’s healthy for the person in the long run.
Everything I did with that boyfriend was consensual and he would always stop at a definitive „no“. (even if not happy about it) So it SHOULD have been okay, and I can‘t reproach him for it, but.. still left a bad taste in the end and I look back to the person I was then with worry and heartbreak.
I think approaches like „everyone is 100% responsible for themselves as an adult and knows exactly what they like/don‘t like and can express this at any point“ are utopian.
I also wasn’t that young and naive or uneducated about the topic- and I did have a liking for light dominance for years, he just took it to another level/ direction, which I know now is not for me. And (like many young, porn-watching men) I think it’s not very clear to him that there’s a difference between domination and degradation.
I DO worry about young women figuring stuff like this out without any resources- it was a bad phase in my life, and I didn’t have any money, but I was still highly educated and able to find out how to get a therapist that’s paid for by insurance.
My last and saddest point is- when I was trying to get clear about what I actually enjoyed/what I just enjoyed because it made him happy/what I only thought I enjoyed, I watched a video with the roles reversed- a woman doing the same to a man. It instantly felt HORRIBLY wrong to me, I could barely get myself to watch it. It saddens me immensely that the woman being slapped looked so much more natural/normal to me :/
It sounds like the real heart of the issue for your relationship was communication, which isn’t something unique to the BDSM community. That is all adult relationships. BDSM is just the place where communication is the most significant because you sometimes try things that can cause physical harm, so it requires caution and preparation. I’m not involved in the kink community, but there are plenty of times where I’ve had tell partners, “No, I don’t want to do that, or, yes, I am fine with that to ____ limit.” It sounds like the bigger problem was that this guy wasn’t communicating with you effectively, and you weren’t communicating how unhappy you were, which led to an intersection where you couldn’t negotiate your boundaries properly. That’s unfortunate, but it’s not necessarily reflective a problem with BDSM as a practice. It’s reflective a dysfunction in your relationship that led to it wisely ending.
I agree women shouldn’t be entering these relationships without significant research, but that goes for men or anybody else in the community. People should be doing their research and talking avidly with older members of the community about what to expect and how they should properly negotiate consent. I think a huge mistake your partner made was not more thoroughly discussing boundaries and limitations and, frankly, not taking into consideration your mental health status at the time. But to be blunt – mistakes a huge part of how we learn, unfortunately. You learned you had a limit, and he wouldn’t respect it, so it meant you two could not work. It sounds like the problem wasn’t the D/S aspects. It was his inability to create a relationship that fit both of your needs.
Having an affiliation for kink does not mean an open party to every aspect of it – plenty of people ARE into degradation, and I think that’s fine if it’s well negotiated in advance and entirely consensual, followed by appropriate aftercare. Sometimes D/S play does fall along traditional gender lines, and even if there are some aspects of social conditioning that play into that, we can’t pretend mature women can’t make those mental distinctions on their own and even be completely fine with it. It’s not really the job of people engaging in private sexual behavior who have consented and expressed their own agency to make it palatable to everybody else around them. We just have to accept that there’s going to be stuff we just can’t cotton to personally, and if both participants are of age, are not being coerced, and are capable of providing informed consent, then I don’t think there’s really much space for society to police it.
It’s really strange to me that Tuntmore and Katinka wrote something really raw and nuanced, that definitely deserves rumination on specifically about what they observed within themselves, particularly Tuntmore who says she still practices from time to time, and how BDSM contributed negatively to that and still your response to these grown women is still “but you’re doing it wrong, you’re not grown enough or smart enough or open enough to understand your experience with your own mind. I think you need to sit with that reaction and why it’s sooooooo important that everyone has to have a happy experience with BDSM culture rather than admit there are a lot of aspects of it that are attractive to predators and people who are easily preyed upon and that how we are socialized as women can make the bad parts easier to encounter.
I agree @Lexx. That whole extensive word salad rhetoric is very patronizing at best, and victim-blaming at worst. Basically saying it’s Katinka’s own fault that she didn’t have the clear mental and emotional capacity to see that a potential predator was in her midst. Dismissing Katinka and all these women sharing their stories, and even dismissing the fact that *maybe* you’re just making them feel worse and feel more shame around their experiences, just to prove your own point is gross. Especially the whole armchair therapist part where you go on and dismissively diagnose it as a “communication issue” And that she “should have been doing [this] or [that]…”. Smh
To the women sharing your stories, I’m sorry you had to go through that. NOBODY gets to define or dismiss your very real experiences for you.
“I think approaches like „everyone is 100% responsible for themselves as an adult and knows exactly what they like/don‘t like and can express this at any point“ are utopian.”
I totally agree with you.
@Lexx – Thank you for this.
“your response to these grown women is still “but you’re doing it wrong, you’re not grown enough or smart enough or open enough to understand your experience with your own mind.”
It’s a bit demeaning, isn’t it? Which is ironic within an argument on empowerment.
I feel much more empowered now than I ever did before. That can’t be invalidated just because it doesn’t fit an ideal.
@Katinka Hugs to you…it sounds like you went through a lot of deep soul-searching, and that’s hard as hell and takes time and work. I’m glad you’re in such a good place now.
“I think approaches like „everyone is 100% responsible for themselves as an adult and knows exactly what they like/don‘t like and can express this at any point“ are utopian.”
I agree. It’s a nice idea, but humans are way too complex, and at the end of the day we’re all just doing the best we can.
“I was trying to get clear about what I actually enjoyed/what I just enjoyed because it made him happy/what I only thought I enjoyed”
^ This is a perfect description of a complicated process.
And that process is why I still role-play sometimes…because I discovered that there were some things I genuinely enjoyed. Like the endorphin rush from controlled pain. But now it comes from a biological place instead of from physical pleasure *plus* feeling deep in my subconscious like I deserve pain. My partner has never been into BDSM but is very open-minded, and we like making each other happy. For the most part we’re pretty vanilla, and that makes us happy too.
You can’t condemn or question survivors for how the deal with their trauma. Perhaps screenshots are proof to themselves not to go back? The more women share their stories, in any form, maybe the more they will be believed or at least show the world how often it happens, how unscrupulous men like Hammer are, and how to identify behaviour before it’s too late.
I remember an interview from almost a decade ago (think 2013) where he was talking about meeting his wife, and how she changed him. Something about how he liked to “pull girls hair” in the bedroom, and his then girlfriend (now estranged wife) laughed at him the first time he tried it.
I don’t remember the magazine or article name, but I think it when the Lone Ranger was gearing up it’s promotion.
Now he’s “stepping away” from that JLo movie. You love to see it.
What the actual fuuuuuuuuuuuuu?! Really?! I’ve never found him attractive, rather creepy.
But I am kicking myself right now, I took the deep dive and I’m not going to be able to get that sh*t put of my head for a while. My own damn fault.
Ummm should someone keep his children away? He sounds seriously deranged.
Vile – This is a straight up murderous predator preying on a segment of society that will lessen his chances of being found out due to their kinks. This is straight up serial killer stuff I hope he’s investigated by the FBI or some thing
I never liked his privileged ass and I’m happy he’s seeing some (admittedly small) repercussions for what he’s done. And I’m sure this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Now all I need is for Chris Pratt’s career to crash and burn lmao
(here come’s an ‘all about me’ moment!)
I am on the far end of middle aged. Recently I got a message from a man I dated in my 20’s. He was then and is now a known actor, I can almost guarantee you’ve seen his work.
After a few, ‘hey, how are you doing’ type messages he leapt into wanting me to send pics of my bathing suit bits. He was insistent and annoying. He sent me an explicit pr0n video. I had a good laugh with my girlfriends about someone actually wanting pics of my bits, but still, it was gross. He is married with young children. When I repeatedly refused he stopped communicating.
So, I wasn’t victimized, as a matter of fact I felt gratitude that I didn’t accept his proposal in my 20’s. I guess I’m just weirded out by the seeming fact that so many men (women too?) are only gratified by extreme and clandestine sexuality.