I’m dating myself, but I absolutely have vivid memories of the Vogue editorial from Dita Von Teese and Marilyn Manson’s wedding. Dita wore a gorgeous Vivienne Westwood gown in rich purple. There was a lot of talk about her corsets. She was a stunning bride and that was arguably Manson’s last gasp of relevancy. About a year after their wedding, Dita left him. There was a cloud over their split, and it was widely theorized that Manson was cheating on Dita with Evan Rachel Wood, especially since he began stepping out with ERW about two seconds after his split with Dita. That was about fifteen years ago. Crash cut to this week – ERW named Manson as an abuser. Ashley Walters, Sarah McNeilly, Ashley Morgan and several other women have come forward with their stories about Manson’s harassment, violence, abuse, and more. Manson issued a bullsh-t statement in his own defense, but he’s still losing all of his jobs and contracts. Now Dita is speaking up:
Dita Von Teese is addressing the accusations of sexual and emotional abuse against Marilyn Manson. Von Teese, 48, was in a relationship with Manson, 52, for several years, and the pair were married for about a year from 2005 to 2006.
The burlesque dancer shared a statement on Instagram Wednesday saying that while “the details made public do not match my personal experience” with Manson, she urges “those of you who have incurred abuse to take steps to heal.”
“I have been processing the news that broke Monday regarding Marilyn Manson. To those who have expressed your concerns of my well-being, I appreciate your kindness,” Von Teese said. “Please know that the details made public do not match my personal experience during our 7 years together as a couple… Had they, I would not have married him in December 2005. I left 12 months later due to infidelity and drug abuse,” she said. “Abuse of any kind has no place in any relationship. I urge those of you who have incurred abuse to take steps to heal and the strength to fully realize yourself.”
“This is my sole statement on this matter,” Von Teese concluded. “Thank you for respecting this request.”
I think she struck the right note – no, he didn’t do that to me, but my thoughts are with the women who were hurt by him. The “infidelity and drug abuse” thing – yeah, he was cheating on her with, I believe, Evan Rachel. Then he manipulated and molded ERW into a version of Dita. Anyway, I’ve always liked Dita and I believe her when she says he wasn’t like that with her. There was *other* sh-t happening when he was with Dita.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Rose McGowan said essentially the same thing. and from what I’ve gathered most of the women who have accused him of abuse in their relationship started with Evan and afterwards. I have no idea why that is though. maybe his drug abuse got a lot worse? although from all accounts he’s always been a racist asshole though.
I would love if we could stop elevating shock culture. especially since saying fucked up things was part of how he got away with it for so long, because everyone just expected him to be fucked up.
In another article about Dita and Manson it took excerpts of what they’ve each said about the end of their marriage. He was talking about her not understanding the rock star lifestyle and trying to change him. I think she was a strong willed fully grown adult woman who wasn’t going to put up with his bullshit. So he chose a teenager that he could mold and manipulate into a compliant Dita 2.0 and got abusive when he felt his control of her was slipping. And then he liked this drug fueled sick control that he held and escalated and continued with subsequent partners. It’s totally sick and I’m glad he’s been outed and I hope he reaps the consequences of his actions.
It is possible that his abusive behavior started with ERW. Particularly if he did start grooming and manipulating her as a teen to normalize abuse and consent boundary pushing with regards to sexual activity.
When I was younger I didn’t even realize that I was being pressured in these ways as I thought “oh I’m just more liberated and empowered” but really it was just the cool girl trope, the hubris of youth and internalized misogyny.
That’s what I’m thinking. Evan was so young, and he realized he could control her and abuse her, and then continued with the next woman.
I’m so glad all of these women, led by Evan, had the strength to call him out publicly. Hopefully they save others from being abused by him in the future.
I also appreciate Dita stating her own experience was different, but not discounting the others simply because she didn’t experience the same thing.
Women of any age and level of “willfulness” can be manipulated and abused. This whole “she was a pistol, that’s why” is insulting and offensive and harmful. Stop.
In reply to Nerdista, certainly they *can* be, but abusers are often opportunistic and will prey on perceived weaknesses. He may have made some overtures to this kind of behavior with DVT, saw that he was not going to get away with it, and retreated.
I was party to a workplace situation where a colleague who was always polite and respectful to me (a 30 year-old manager) said and did horrible things to younger employees who were not in the same position of authority I was in. It’s not a strike against them; he preyed on their youth and inexperience and calculated that they would stay quiet (he was wrong and I was very proud of them for speaking up). I was a much riskier proposition, so he kept his mask on around me.
My abuser and I were in our late teens and early 20s when it started, I don’t think he abused his high school girlfriends? Just because it didn’t happen before doesn’t mean it didn’t start somewhere. They hone their craft, manipulation, and gaslighting over time, until it is a full-blown character trait and it usually doesn’t just stop, it gets worse. I may have been in the same position as ERW where I was the first to experience the abuse at another level.
Exactly. I do not think he was an angel on his marriage to Dita and showed no signs of abusive behaviors. He was likely less overt to where she may feel ” That was really really unhealthy and I’m glad I left but I don’t feel like I can call myself a victim of abuse.” She was quoted years ago saying that you don’t just pack up and quickly leave on Christmas Eve unless something bad happens. I think she saw where he was going and noped out before he got there. And poor ERW got the monster he was becoming.
I certainly didn’t mean to imply that it didn’t happen – I 100% believe all of his accusers, and I also believe Rose and Dita saying it didn’t happen to them. I apologise if my comment sounded like I was questioning the accusations.
Surmising Brian wasn’t as entitled when dating DVT. He was older & inured to rock star regard when w EVR. Also going to guess DVT has more dom tendencies whilst ERW is more of a sub, pArticularly due to her age. Seems Brian exploited non consensual BDSM, & likely cloaked it as “art”.
Btw, I had nightmares about Brian’s “Marilyn Manson” character all night. I watched the heart shaped glasses video & am disturbed. Yucky.
I am so sorry, Ang.
Seems to me his increased drug abuse (which Dita mentions) may have made him start acting out toward partners after her. Sounds very similar to how Johnny Depp allegedly never harmed past partners before Amber Heard. He similarly seemed to develop a major drug/alcohol issue before/during his relationship with her that made him so violent.
I thought JD famously trashed a hotel room when he was with Kate Moss in a fit of violent rage? We all need to note here that abusers will not abuse everyone or let every target see them fully unmasked. They need to preserve a few recruits to keep them credible in the eyes of future targets; and to maintain contact with a few exes so that they can use those contacts and “friendships” to triangulate the new target, create doubt, create a running dialogue of self-comparison to the exes that are still viewed as ‘high value’ and to make their new target second guess themselves from the outset.
@JustJJ Depp does have a long history of trashing hotel rooms and hitting photographers. But his exes have largely supported him/tried to imply if he didn’t hurt them he couldn’t have hurt Amber, which is awful.
I am a Charmed superfan, (shut up, it was easy escapism, and I adore Holly Marie Combs and Shannen Doherty), so I know a bit about Rose. In an interview after she left him, she said she left because of drugs (she said “it starts with “d”, and ends with rugs”, if I’m remembering correctly, it was A LONG time ago). He was already ramping up his predilections with Rose, it’s horrible that it went this far.
I dated a fairly well known musician 18 years ago who reminds me of Marilyn Manson’s ladder of abuse. He was younger than I and could be a massive jerk and at times he displayed narcissistic and misogynistic tendencies which were mostly directed at the women in his family, including his mom. I just thought he was immature momma’s boy at the time. He didn’t really aim it at me but now I realize I was high enough on the social ladder he was trying to climb it would have been a bad move on his part. We broke up and I had my suspicions of cheating. I moved on and a good time later he and I started a band together which started to garnering lot of attention and that’s when the real misogyny and narcissism came out and was now aimed directly at me. I quit the band because of it. Years later after going through a huge amount of band members who either quit or were fired he started the real vanity project. A band which was completely fueled by this persona he created. He became even more famous. He started drinking heavily and using every drug known to man. The pattern of grooming women into his orbit was astounding. I call it grooming now because of how young and star struck they were. He would make them his his world to hook them in and once they he would switch it up making him their world and completely dependant on him. At the time it weird to me but I chalked it up to being young and dumb drama. I lost touch with him after a while mostly because I moved into a different direction in the music world. Now cut to about 10 or so years later I get a random message on social media from a girl who he had just broken up with. We chatted back and forth for a while and one day she asked me if she could tell me something. She then went into stories of pretty horrible emotional abuse. I wasn’t shocked given that ladder of abuse and grooming I witnessed. Then she told me one of the worst sexual assault stories I’ve ever heard which happened the night after he broke up with her and she still wanted to be with him! That’s how good these guys are at this. I don’t know why but I was floored. I knew he was a colossal POS but for some reason I never imagined him doing that to someone. Then, I started piecing together all of the things I saw, my personal experiences and the deep dive into fame and addiction both fueling his narcissism. Male musicians are particularly ept in climbing this ladder. I’ve seen it so many times I couldn’t count them all. Fame does weird things to people yeah but add drugs, narcissism and a stage and it goes full throttle. I hope Evan finds some healing and I applaud Dita for coming out, supporting and believing her.
Thanks for explaining this Golden, and so well. This really helped me understand and see the patterns of behaviour.
I am so sorry!!
Its a good statement. She acknowleges that just because it wasn’t her experience that it doesn’t discount the other women. Johnny depps exes could learn from her.
100%
I had the same thought.
That Vanessa- he didn’t hit me so he definitely didn’t hit another woman, which i was not there to witness- made me angry. Because its not in any way evidence.
Dita and Rose are supporting victims/survivors.
Baby step in the right direction in our society.
Edited to change what I misremembered. I think Dita is problematic for different reasons, but this was a good statement.
I was just reading the comments on DListed for the Dita Von Teese statement and they are going after her with pitchforks. They say she has no compassion for the victims and using the word “incurred” lessens their victimhood. They were upset that DVT dared implied she would have not endured abuse (which is exactly what happened, she left him!!). When I reminded them that she may not have the warmest feelings for EWR as she was his mistress and one of the reasons why their marriage ended then they went after me! LOL!! This is a messy situation and DVT gave a nice brief statement and I am sure she doesn’t want to be dragged into MM’s life any further. When you are a victim, it’s important to take back your life and remember you are in charge of your free will. Other people constantly giving you the badge of a victim will keep you in the state of feeling like you have no control over your life. I hope these women feel empowered and heard and learn from their unfortunate incidences with MM and move on with their lives.
I was abused for years by my partner and they were unfaithful to me as well, and my concern for the other party was for the fact that my partner had facilitated sex with them while intoxicated, not to subtly condone the harm that my partner at the time was doing to them as Dita is essentially doing here.
The use of incurred IS wrong and DOES remove responsibility from the abuser.
If Dita is still upset about this and doesn’t want to be dragged into his life she could have stayed out of it by being silent.
Evan Rachel Wood IS taking control of her life by naming her abuser and what happened. The “badge of a victim” nonsense is purely victim blaming.
Agreed @Maria @CherHorowitz The language is fishy. At first seems solid but yeah, not cool.
The only thing that rubbed me up the wrong way in an otherwise excellent statement was the ‘if that had’ve been my experience, i wouldnt have married him’ line. Why is that necessary? Its only purpose seems to be to suggest well I wouldnt have put up with that, obviously cos i married him. As though abuse isn’t complex enough that many people marry their abusers, that she’s ‘too strong’ for that. I may be hyper senstive because of my own experience (altho i didnt marry mine, but i probably wouldve if he’d asked as much as it lains me to admit it). But that line jarred me out a bit and didn’t seem necessary to the overall message.
I agree, that line stood out to me too. I don’t know how she intended that line, but I read it the same way you did.
But…wasn’t Dita only married to him for one year?
Just to say upon rereading it properly, i retract my ‘otherwise excellent statement’ comment. Euw I’m not quite sure how it read it as fine overall before.
Why is it unnecessary? Why is it wrong to bring women beyond being victims. Can’t we teach young girls that? To not put up with shit behavior. So we are doing to demonize her for being strong. People 🤦♀️.
My ex never beat his previous girlfriend. Didn’t stop him from beating me.
I think DvT’s statement is spot on, and incredibly respectful.
DvT’s is an intelligent woman: her statement is perfect, and I believe her when she says she wasn’t assaulted, and I believe she divorced him for his drug abuse.
I’m on the opposite side of you. My ex never beat me but it didn’t stop him from beating his next girlfriend. Dita’s statement was amazing.
Same with me – my ex never laid a finger on me but I know the gf after me he used to beat her regularly. Once the neighbour downstairs had to break into the flat to pull him off her.
My ex never laid a hand on me. But, he was arrested for beating a girlfriend a few years after we were together, and she sought a restraining order against him. My first thought was he never hit me, he never hit his ex wife, so surely he didn’t beat her. Over the years I have thought about it more and more and with movements like me too and FKA twigs lawsuit I have come to realize how controlling and abusive he was. I was beaten into submission with out any fists, but make no mistake he beat me down with words and threats and physical acts like standing in front of the door so I couldn’t leave and punching a hole in the wall beside me.
Some people are just abusive and need control. I fully believe ERW and subsequent girlfriends. I dont care if he never hit Dita, he’s still garbage.
My ex tormented me for years but reportedly treats his wife with nothing but respect
Same, my ex didn’t treat the ones before poorly but I was treated like garbage… physical and mental abuse for years. No idea what he’s like now, after he was gone, I refused anymore contact with him, his friends or his family.
I was treated horribly by my ex – manipulated, gaslighted, cheated on, every shred of self-esteem was stolen from me. Twenty years later he got married and is now all Mr. Perfect Husband. Go figure.
See Winona? THIS is how you should have delivered your statement.
Winona AND Vanessa Paradis.
Yes, especially Vanessa. I think less of her because she invalidated Amber’s experiences and all but called her a liar. F that.
Wait. Are you saying that volunteering to be a character witness for an accused abuser that you have not dated for 20 years is perhaps a stupid idea? Who knew.
Exactly. Ridiculous.
I agree, it can be so easy, intentionally or otherwise, to confirm that no abuse happened within your relationship in a way which can be taken to imply that the person wouldn’t do it to anyone else as we have seen so many times. Or to outright say you don’t think they would do it to anyone else just because they didn’t abuse you which is a terrible argument to make.
This is well considered and clarifies her own experiences while showing concern for those who were abused by this same person.
I hated this statement and you hit the nail on the head by calling out the use of the word “incur”. I also don’t like how she said that the women should find the strength of fully realize themselves. Wtf does that mean? To me it sounds like she’s kinda putting the blame on the survivors.
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“Incur” stuck out to me, too. Usually incurs seems to mean you collected or brought something on, like one “incurs” debt. Incur literally means “to become subject to as a result of one’s own behavior or actions,” when I looked it up just now. And the part about how she wasn’t abused, and if she had been she wouldn’t have married him. I’m sort of reading it as “obviously I wasn’t abused by him, you can tell because I married him. Who would marry their abuser?” which is…. not great. And then all the onus is on the women to heal themselves so they can “realize” themselves. Okay…
ETA: looks like we both responded in the wrong place. Oops.
“Those of you who have incurred abuse”
1) passive voice. Not, Marilyn/Brian abused you. Not, the people (or person) who abused you. This is not good because it erases abuser’s responsibility. I understand she was probably trying to be diplomatic but there are other ways.
2) the verb “incur.” Look it up. It specifically means the victim did something to deserve the abuse. And that is evil. Again she probably wasn’t choosing her word right and probably didn’t mean it that way, but that’s its dictionary definition and in a major public statement, you should be more careful.
3) never a mention that abusers should be brought to justice.
So no I don’t think this is a marvelous statement.
Agreed. I thought “incur” was a clumsy word to use. This came off less supportive and more “I want no part of this” which is fine, but it came off as kinda cold to me.
It was not a perfect statement but I do not expect her to have much sympathy for the younger woman with whom her husband cheated and ultimately left her for. I know she divorced him but he ended up with ERW. No doubt Dita was shattered in many ways and had to do much work to pull herself out the other side. I have no doubt she still harbors bitterness toward ERW and it shows in that statement. It is one thing to be cheated on but with an 18 year old? Humiliation city. She probably objectively understands ERW was out of her wheelhouse with him but still finds it hard to summon the sympathy for her.
It is worded a little weirdly and reads stilted. But to me it sounds like she wants to support the women and not focus on MM too much. She can’t speak to anything he did to these women so if she said it the way you suggest, it would leave her open to all kinds of sh*t. The word incurred is not great, no. But she clearly has no difficulty believing them which to me means she knows he is very much capable of the things he is accused of. Her mention of drug abuse is telling.
Elizabeth,
I agree with your assessment here, while also recognizing that Dita is in a terrible position. She is probably being bombarded with questions, feels she needs to say *something*, and this is just such a touchy area. But yeah, “incur” is an odd choice. I also don’t entirely love that she said that if he had been abusive with her, she would not have married him in 2005, because it sounds a bit victim blamey, sort of like “if he abused me, I would have been OUT of there” and as we know, it is not always so easy for victims to escape.
Also, i think that some of this can be caulked up to the stigma of abuse. I think that there is some level where her statement is not about supporting the abused, but about distancing HERSELF from it, and saying “No, don’t think he did those awful things to me too”.
I had the same thought about the ‘I wouldn’t have married him’ part of her statement.
Wow – I just looked up the meaning of incur and I don’t think it means what DvT thinks it means.
Incur – become subject to (something unwelcome or unpleasant) as a result of one’s own behavior or actions.
Perhaps she meant sustained or experienced; A+ for effort, C- for execution.
I mean its most popular usage is “incurred a debt” right? Definitely not the word for this situation.
When one puts out a public statement of so many words, one probably has gone over it with a fine tooth comb beforehand. I think Dita knows the meaning of the word she chose to use. And if not? Well then, ouch.
I hated this statement and you hit the nail on the head by calling out the use of the word “incur”. I also don’t like how she said that the women should find the strength of fully realize themselves. Wtf does that mean? To me it sounds like she’s kinda putting the blame on the survivors.
Very clumsy; if you’re issuing statement in support of women who have been abused, you do not choose a word that infers they brought it upon themselves. I hope this is just a vocabulary error, and not indicative of her attitude towards intimate partner abuse.
Incur sounds like endure? That’s what I’d go with if I were her people. An apology and correction without an excuse. “I should have said endured, not incurred. That was my mistake and I’m sorry.”
Yeah, I’m not here for this statement. It sounds like she’s still blaming 18 year old Evan for being an active participant in the affair that ended her marriage.
Also Manson may not have physically abused Dita, but he didn’t learn those emotional abuse techniques overnight.
Sometimes it takes a lot of hindsight and education. I knew my ex was shitty, but I didn’t realize it was emotional abuse until years later when I first heard the term gaslighting.
This. It took finding out about my ex’s arrest for beating his new partner for me to connect some dots. I was very young when we were together, he was my first serious relationship and the first person I’d lived with. I started that relationship an extremely confident person. I left it having barely seen friends for years and with massive self esteem issues. I had always put it down to just getting older and being less sheltered about the world. I didn’t notice the small incremental steps he took to break down my personality. He didn’t like my friends so we eventually just hung out with his (who I didn’t like but that wasn’t as important as his wants). He stole my money to feed an addiction but also to limit my options for leaving. Everything I enjoyed was eventually gone from my life and my home. All of the things I had previously liked about myself were stripped away. The only thing missing was physical violence.
Violent men rarely start out with their fists.
I agree with you 100%. This statement rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not sure why so many people think it’s a “good” statement.
If you read her statement as one of support for Goth Brian’s victim’s, yes it is off. However, this is not a statement of support but of clarification. She is letting her fans and friends and business partners know that she did not experience this abuse from her ex-husband. She made sure to highlight that she has been divorced from this man for 15 years.
I appreciate she didn’t imply that because he did not abuse her that he would not have abused his subsequent partners. Having followed Dita obsessively for years, I do think the “Dust yourself off. Chin up.” tone of the last sentences was her message. They don’t sit nicely with me, but that is Dita.
That’s not what she did.
She said verbatim: “Here are my thoughts – I did not experience these details.” Which, since we know abuse doesn’t work that way, is helpful to nobody, except maybe to him.
She didn’t imply what you stated. She tacked on a general statement about abuse to try to avoid controversy – but her use of “incur”, the mentioning of infidelity when it is an open secret this man was with ERW at the time their marriage foundered, and her statement that she wouldn’t have married him if he had abused her (VERY questionable) is all structured, whether intentionally or no, to make Wood look bad.
I agee “incur” is the wrong word. I hope her intentions otherwise were good.
In addition to your points, I also disliked the part where she said if she had experienced abuse from Manson, she wouldn’t have married him. A) you don’t know what you would have done, and B) it sounds to me like she’s blaming the victims for not getting out as soon as the abuse started (as if it’s necessarily a bright line of when/how the abuse starts, and as if victims aren’t often trapped psychologically or in other ways). This one gets a “better effort than some (and that’s a low bar), but still problematic” from me.
*Edited slightly for clarity
YES!! This!! That word angered me so much when I read her instagram post last night that I actually had to comment. I hope she just misspoke, but that word takes what could have been a moderately decent statement and turns it into condescending, victim-blaming filth for anyone who knows what that word actually means. To me, her statement reads like she blames Evan and drugs for ruining her marriage, that Evan and all the other victims/survivors reaped what they sowed. You incur an expense through your actions. You incur the wrath of your parents through your actions. No one EVER incurs abuse. EVER. As someone with a broad vocabulary who has experienced abuse at the hands of multiple men, I am deeply offended by her statement, even if she mistakenly used the wrong word.
I feel like the passive voice may have been used here in order to focus on the victims and not the abuser. I get what you’re saying, but I really didn’t read it that way myself.
Agreed. The statement didn’t seem all that supportive to the women who came after her.
I think Dita never asked for this spotlight, and should not be made to pay or be accountable for anything Marilyn Manson did of his own volition.
Nobody is asking her to pay for it or to be accountable for what he did or anything of the sort.
As it is, people may have been asking her for a statement, and this ill-advised and problematic one is the one she chose to release, when she could have refrained from getting involved.
I don’t think it was accidental. She was so careful with everything in her statement; why would the word “incur” be a mistake. I think that’s giving credit for something that’s really problematic.
Much respect to her for her statement and as the years pass, my respect for her grows.
On a totally shallow end, MM is not the most attractive person to set eyes on – what in the world are these women thinking. To each their own I guess.
I remember at the time how I was disturbed by the fact ERW was dressing like Dita, and how it was clear he was trying to clone his ex wife, on a teenager.
When he first started dating Dita, I thought she was a Rose clone except with the burlesque schtick (which if you remember Rose’s mtv awards butt dress, not so far off).
He has a type, not very creative of him. His current wife is another Rose type.
Yeah he definitely molded poor teenager (!) Evan into his goth fantasy girl.
Incurred is such an odd word choice but whatever.
I am gratified I think to hear a different sort of discussion around abusive men. Everyone needs to understand that some men aren’t always abusive, at least not physically so to every partner they encounter and that previous good behavior in a past relationship doesn’t make women who come forward from a later relationship a liar.
Abuse is so often about control, about exercising control, particularly when one is lacking it in other aspects of their life or has resented having to be something of an equal partner in a previous relationship or just resentful of a previous partner’s decision to walk away.
I would guess both Depp and Manson sought out partners they had more influence and control over and then exerted more and more control over them as their careers slide and/or their substance abuse problems grew. Dita left Manson when his drug issues became more than she should handle so he creates an environment with a new partner where she can’t leave.
I agree, Elizabeth. She certainly isn’t advocating for ERW. And I think it’s fair that there’s bitterness and maybe she wasn’t abused, but this is a cold and unhelpful statement to me. She also calls out “seven years” and says she “wouldn’t have married” him, which doesn’t help validate ERW. She doesn’t know what she would do if she were groomed and abused. While it’s not her job to validate ERW, this is most certainly not a flawless statement and disappointing. I also believe he had some severe emotional problems that maybe didn’t manifest as violence until after their relationship.
I agree with this as well.
I do believe he didn’t physically abuse her. I am not so sure I believe that he didn’t exhibit controlling, non-physical behaviors at any time during their relationship. I also looked sideways at her “I never would have married him if he had” comment which read as derision towards people who do marry their abuser. I would guess Angelina has stories to tell about that bit as do many women who have suffered abuse from their spouses.
@jen, yes this! Not a huge fan of the statement but whatever… I think this is why I was so in awe of twigs statement in which she highlighted how it really could have happen to everyone, even strong resourceful women, and women who would never think that they would put up with abusive behaviour.
Classy and elegant, as always. <3
I’ve always respected Dita and this statement deepens my respect.
In terms of the timing of when his pattern of abusive behavior began–this is obviously pure speculation on my part, but sometimes abusers use their subjugation of their victims as a way to shore up their own weakening sense of power and authority. Abuse beginning after a man gets laid off from work and feels powerless and emasculated by that is a common sequence of events. Survivors of abuse will often describe histories where in hindsight there were earlier warning signs, but the abuse didn’t begin in earnest until the abuse got fired/lost out on a promotion/was publicly humiliated in some way. (Of course not all abusers fit this psychological profile, but many do.) So, the timing of Manson’s abuse beginning after Dita left him, when his career had begun a huge downward spiral, would fit that pattern.
I remember that Vogue interview as well, when Dita was very proud of the Nazi paraphernalia this clown gave her throughout their relationship and was showing it off.
That is when I knew she was garbage as well.
Ohhh, I’ve always had a bad impression of her and couldn’t remember why. I’ve been surprised by all of the accolades here.
Isn’t she the one who went on to date and almost marry Sandra Bullock’s not ex-husband? Whoever she is, she is garbage and I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s covering for him because Nazi women a sink that admitting assault is the worst imaginable weakness
I have no idea what kind of person Dita is but I’m pretty sure you’re thinking of Kat Von D, who *is* an anti-vaxxing piece of trash.
@Julie I think you’re thinking of Kat Von D. They look very similar.
Oh yiiiiiiiiikes.
Nope! Tiffany is correct! Manson gifted Dita Eva Braun’s purse.
Not to change the subject from Dita’s statement but while reading up on Manson’s past with women, I noticed that when Evan Rachel Wood testified before Congress in 2019 supporting the Phoenix Act, actress Esme Bianco (Ros from Game of Thrones) testified in support of the act that day as well. Like Evan, she spoke of an abusive ex who kept her prisoner, beat her for his “art” and psychologically manipulated her.
I can’t link the article right now because I’m on my phone but Esme penned a thoughtful article detailing her abuse and the PTSD she still suffers from that relationship. In the article, she includes a photo of herself during a past birthday out to dinner with this ex. He is not named or shown. In the article, she wrote that despite smiling in the picture, if you look closely enough, you can see the fear in her eyes. She also included a photo of the welts left on her back after her ex beat her for his “art”. She discussed how she put up with the abuse because he gaslit her into believing she “needed” him.
You should be able to find the article if you Google her name.
Esme dated Marilyn Manson between 2010-2011. You can find pictures of them together. In several paparazzi shots taken of them, she’s wearing the exact same dress she was wearing in the”birthday” photo.
How awful. It just makes me so sick, constant barrages of abusive men, and then people actually question women when they speak up. And most of them are “hiding’ in plain sight, and not hiding at all.
It’s like when Trump was on tape bragging that he grabs women by their genitals and just starts kissing them “i don’t even ask”. And then women came forward and said, yeah he did that to me, and people screamed “YOU’RE LYING”
WTF????
Yes, Sean. I saw that info as well back when they both spoke before Congress. She has not named him yet, but it is pretty damn clear who it was. ERW and Esme’s stories are so similar, and yes, the timelines add up.
I’m not sure why people expect Dita to specifically advocate for ERW. She gave a far better statement than others. Compare what she said to Johnny Depp’s exes’ statements about him.
Surely you can also see that her and ERW have a complicated background, given how quickly Manson moved on with ERW and moulded her into a Dita clone. Even if Manson didn’t cheat on Dita with ERW, it’s a weird situation and I doubt they’re friends or friendly. Dita doesn’t say she doesn’t support victims either.
She just says they brought on their own abuse (that’s what incur means and it’s not an esoteric word) and that she would obviously have left an abusive man unlike these silly women who didn’t.
It’s a terrible statement.
I remember reading a Spin magazine article years ago where MM talked about calling ERW over 100 times in a row while cutting himself. He wanted to “show her the pain he felt” when she left him. Alarm bells didn’t ring in my head at the time but I never forgot what I read, I would think of it every time I saw ERW. I’m older now, I’ve seen some shit, and I’m a mother. Perception changes with time & life experience. Deep bow to ERW for being brave enough to see the relationship for what it was & air MM out publicly. It wasn’t intense first love, it was predatory and abusive. Period.
PS-Can we please start calling him Goth Brian?
Editing my comment to include this right now!
JustJJ…can we not, and maybe just call him Brian Warner? Us goths don’t want to claim him as our own.
@Jaylee – My abusive ex called and texted me non stop late at night for weeks after I left him, saying he was driving drunk and didn’t care who he hurt.
Then that turned into threatening to kill himself.
Then that turned into faking cancer.
He did this both times that I left him (The cancer ruse was only the second and final time that I left because the suicide threats didn’t work that time.). The final time, I had opened up to my family and they had my back and I realized I had the strength to know that it wasn’t my fault he was acting like that.
In conclusion, this seems to be a common tactic abusers use when their victim leaves them.
To suggest that these women « incurred » the violence inflicted upon them is appalling. To incur something is to bring it upon oneself.
Or maybe she just doesn’t know what the word means?
She doesn’t have a publicist who read the statement prior to release? That would be odd, but maybe. Well, she revealed herself to be ignorant then. I’d say don’t use 5 dollar words when you have a dollar and 50 cent vocab, but I don’t really think of incur as a 5 dollar word.
She knows. This woman is a master at promotion. Every word was carefully chosen.
Yeah, I don’t love this statement at all. It doesn’t convince me she wasn’t emotionally abused on some level while they were together either.
Eeek. I hope this was just poorly worded because on the surface it seems okay, but the underlying implication is bad.
It seems pretty obvious she still has a problem with ERW being the other woman – I can’t think of another reason why you would include “ Well *I* wouldn’t have married him if he had been abusive”” implying that somehow ERW (and the other women he abused) were just too stupid or weak to recognize the warning signs instead of being a vulnerable teenager being groomed to a more agreeable version of you.
She should have followed Rose McGowan’s statement – acknowledge that while you were not physically abused, you recognize that other women WERE and you support them, full stop. None of these women brought it on themselves and none of them experienced it because they weren’t “strong” enough. They were mentally, verbally, emotionally and physically abused by this psychopath.
Rose McGowan does and says a lot of problematic nonsense, but I really admire the statement she put out about this situation.
I don’t like this statement at all.
It seems curt with a heavy dose of victim blaming.
Agree 100% . Several have mentioned the problematic use of the word “incur.” But I would also like to point out the problem with her statement “know that the details made public do not match my personal experience during our 7 years together as a couple… Had they, I would not have married him in December 2005.” The implication here is clear: SHE would have been strong enough to leave. the phrase “to take steps to heal and the strength to fully realise yourself” solidify my interpretation. If only ERW and the others had been “fully realized”, they could have left Goth Brian. Keep it, bitch.
Honestly, even without that „incur“-debacle which is a horrible use of that word in this particular context, the sentence about „had they, I would not have married him“ is such a punch in the face for every abuse victim.
First, many abusers start with the abuse after the marriage, this is actually a common phenomenon because marriage can tie people financially and legally to the abuser.
Second, leaving or not leaving an abusive partner is nothing to do with strength or whatever she insinuates here, it is well known that leaving abusers can often be even more dangerous.
Third, no matter how sour Dita may be due to infidelity or whatever, she is a grown woman who should realize that ERW was a CHILD when Manson started to abuse her and that he – not she – was the one who betrayed Dita. To still be bitter and not have empathy for a human being who has been through hell is such a pathetic move and it’s absolutely tasteless.
Sorry, her statement sounds classy on the very surface but the more you look at it, the worse it gets. It’s like a Rorschach-test of empathy (or lack thereof).
Yes, I agree. I hated the “I would have never married him if he had abused me” statement.
Regarding “incur”, let’s face it, she is very elegant looking, but probably not that articulate. She probably doesn’t know what the word really means.
Might I just point out, that his lawyer is trying to deny accusations of his abuse by pointing out that Evan was seeing other people while they were together.
Says the guy, who admitted that his marriage fell apart because he cheated on his wife.
Says the guy, who was pictured with Evan while married to Dita, and groomed her far before the marriage was even over.
First of all pointing to another wrong will not cancel the first wrong; but FFS at least pick a 2nd wrong to point at that YOU YOURSELF are not GUILTY OF. (I’m not even gonna argue whether I think the accusations the lawyer made are true, I doubt it- even if they were, she deserved a bit of happiness)
Stupid acts stupid though, what can I say.
whaaaat??? what does one thing have to do with another? he couldn’t have abused her, she once ran a red light! like, how nonsensical. couldn’t that argument actually be spun around to support her abuse accusations too? like, if he knew or suspected she was seeing other people might that have made him jealous? very jealous? controlling? abusive?
I’ve seen it too many times where people say, “Well I never saw them do that” to discount the abuse that someone else suffered. Someone mentioned Depp’s exes. I also saw this when a priest from the parish I was raised in was credibly accused in a sexual abuse of minors case – people were saying, but I never saw him do anything! Maybe it’s hard for them to accept that the person they thought they knew is not who they thought they knew.
This also plays into how abusers tend to be very, very charming to others in order to garner a defense like that if their victims ever come forward.
Lesson to learn and accept: Just because it didn’t happen to you does not mean it didn’t happen to others!
“I would have never married him if he had abused me” sit down, Dita.
Yup. That little bit, the word “incur” and urging survivors to “heal and find themselves” or whatever… Girl, yikes. Have all the seats.
That’s the bit that really doesn’t sit well with me. It’s a terrible statement if you read it more than once and think about it for a hot second.
Imagine having a hideous divorce and fighting hard to deassociate yourself professionally and otherwise from a complete wazzock, only to have to speak about your ex marriage again 15 years later as it transpires he’s allegedly a rapist abusive pig? I feel sorry for Deets, she’s nothing to do with this, Everyone should let her be.
This is a valid point. I also don’t know if there are multiple charges being filed against Goth Brian, or what the legal ramifications could be but I could understand her not wanting to testify or say anything that could tie her in, should anything be brought to trial.
She could have just said nothing, lol.
Agreed. Or just said “I didn’t experience this during the time I knew him and we separated for other reasons but my empathy goes out to the women coming forward.” Or something. If she had to say something, but wanted to make a non statement. Right? To me, this statement sounds like he’s still got his hooks in her somehow or like he has tried to Hoover her (emotional abuse tactic) off and on through the years.
Honestly, it sounds to me like a very tepid defense of him in some ways. And a way for her to throw shade at Evan since MM’s relationship with her is why their marriage foundered.
No one forced her to make a statement. Certainly no one forced her to make a terrible victim blaming flaming pile of garbage statement. There’s no reason to feel sorry for her.
I have always been a fan of Dita and I resent her statement. I am so shocked to see so many people saying it is classy or respectful. Dita is a very smart and articulate woman – if this statement was from someone else, I would say maybe it is tonedeaf or maybe that person is not very eloquent and doesn’t get why their statement is problematic. Because I was a fan of Dita, I am not giving her the benefit of the doubt.
This statement does not say “I believe the vistims, I support them, I stand with them”.
Even if you write off the use of “incur” as a mistake (which I don’t), this just says “IF you were abused, hope you find some strength and seek help”. That is it. And guess what, #ditavonteese on twitter is a hashtag that is trending together with #ibelievemarilynmanson and #marilynmansonisinnocent. Because this is what this statement is for – it is phrased so as not to alienate anyone – not her fans, not his fans. Diplomatic. I don’t do diplomatic when calling out abusers.
@AA. Totally agree. She is not a dumb woman. She knew exactly what she was doing and how it would come across.
I never, ever understood the appeal of Marilyn Manson in way shape or form.
*Goth Brian
Quite frankly, I think it would have been best if she had said nothing.
I was thinking the same thing. If she didn’t experience abuse and she also didn’t want to fully support the victims, why say anything? Or just say, “I have no knowledge of his relationships with other women and I have nothing to share about my relationship with him.”
If you can’t say something nice (i.e. support abuse victims which should be the bare minimum!) then don’t say anything at all.
I love the way she worded this and think it’s an important thing to remember, just because one person didn’t abuse you that doesn’t mean they didn’t abuse others. Every relationship is different, and every time a story comes out about rape or abuse you see people saying things about how the person was so gentle with them they would never do such a horrible thing, which is obviously not the case.
Also, people are saying ERW should’ve known better because of how Manson dresses and acts, and Dita’s statement directly reflects how you can’t judge a book by the cover.
Last, I’ve been in a few emotionally abusive relationships and one physical, and they were preppy/normal looking dudes who had good jobs and good families, you’d never guess from looking at them. Always believe victims no matter what.
Oh. I wasn’t impressed with Dita’s statement at all. It’s very cold and detached, and somewhat judgmental with the “I wouldn’t have married him if he did that to me” sentiment. She says nothing of seeking justice or supporting his victims (she could’ve even said “alleged” victims!), just that she hopes these women who have “incurred” abuse get help and that abuse has no place in a relationship. Okay.
I don’t find this classy in the slightest. Sounds like victim blaming and trying to sound so neutral that the statement might as well not exist. You can be somewhat neutral and admit you didn’t experience this with your ex-partner while still giving some empathy to the survivors.
Yes, this! She didn’t express empathy and compared herself to those he abused by saying she wouldn’t have let it happen. This implies that they did let it happen and were therefore at fault to some degree.
Yes, this! She didn’t express empathy and compared herself to those he abused by saying she wouldn’t have let it happen. This implies that they did let it happen and were therefore at fault to some degree.
Shit, y’all are right, I didn’t even catch that the first time I read it. Damn.
My x is notoriously controlling but very wealthy- I left w our child & the shirt on my back. Fast forward to court litigation & his x & I both testified against him- won on all counts eventually. His new wife matches his manipulation by posing as a psychic who can “see his spirit leave” when he gets angry. She scares him into submission- per our kid on visits, she has to come up w new scare tactics. How exhausting, but she controls his finances. Good for her, right ? I’d rather be poor!!!
I didn’t love this statement. She strikes me as someone who doesn’t want to get involved which is fair because why should she get such negative press cause of Brian’s actions? However, to say that “Please know that the details made public do not match my personal experience during our 7 years together as a couple… Had they, I would not have married him in December 2005”. Leaves an ugly taste in my mouth because it sounds like “I would never been in a relationship like that cause I am wise enough not to incur abuse”. The wording is just uncomfortable.
I just can’t figure out how MM, who seems to take great pains to look like a silly goofball of a freak, can attract so many good looking women.
‘Cause he’s a predator who grooms them
I guess I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Dita is in a terrible position here.
It’s been years since they were married. They have no contact, doesn’t seem like they have mutual contacts, and their work doesn’t overlap. Also, I can’t fathom anyone who blames her for his actions.
She also had all the time in the world to make a statement and by the stilted language, she did take her time and chose her words. And if she chose her words, I wonder why she chose incur?
The way she worded this is a disgrace, frankly. The use of “incur” is an absolute mistake and I sincerely hope it was just her using a word she didn’t understand.
It is unnecessary and distracting to emphasize that no abuse occurred when she was with him.
A simple “thank you for your well wishes; I would like to clarify to the public that our relationship ended for other reasons, however abuse is unacceptable in any form” would have sufficed.
If she did not want to advocate for Evan Rachel Wood as others have suggested here, then she could have kept her mouth shut.
This whole thing definitely has an implication of wanting to point the finger at Evan as the reason their marriage fell apart with the “infidelity” statement, and perhaps color people’s’ perceptions of Evan’s assertions with the statement’s supplementary information that Dita herself did not suffer abuse at all.
And the victim blaming implied in the statement “if there had been abuse, I wouldn’t have married him”.
This is unacceptable and I have lost a lot of respect for her.
Anyone who thinks this is classy or elegant has a LOT of sociological research to do about abuse, as well as semantics.
Ditta’s comment might look nice but it has this horrible „I would’t let that happen to me” angle. Hate it.
Does the infidelity confirm that he cheated with ERW?
Considering what Esme Bianco said in her speech supporting the Phoenix Acct, I think it could be a “rockstar” behavior he wanted to have, she said he’d lock her out of the apartment they lived in which she did not have a key to, or in a bedroom while he did whatever he wanted with whomever.
It sounds like Dita, as someone said, a fully formed adult who had better self esteem, etc. Accepted some things, but stopped at others, while the others he chose later were much more malleable and he groomed them for his needs. ERW, a teen hungry for independence and experiences, and Esme, who seemingly was mire dependent and scared of him. It can be triggering, but listening to them both speaking as survivors of DV is enlightening how much he has gotten away with. Ugly inthe outside and inside.
It boggles my mind that anyone would CONSIDER dating this guy. He is vile since day one.
Trent Reznor apparently despises ‘Goth Brian’ as well. Just read a little thing about that at Rolling Stone. MM made a false claim about TR that infuriated him in the past and has just now popped up again …and TR isn’t taking any prisoners this time.
I know TR has had his moments too but he is truly the Gothfather of the 90’s. I’m glad he’s calling out Goth Brian because it appears GB has a long history of this behavior, and maybe more survivors will feel safe enough to tell their stories or feel some kind of vindication finally.
I think DVT is a nazi sympathizer, or nazi adjacent. IIRC, she maybe purchased or asked for/received Eva Braun’s purse as a gift? Does this sound familiar to anyone else?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/people.com/celebrity/bandmate-sues-marilyn-manson-over-nazi-purchases/%3famp=true
Here it is. This is all really disgusting. It was gifted by Brian himself.
She was with him during his whole Nazi phase and he purchased Eva Brauns purse for her as a gift. As far as I know, she accepted the gift. How could anyone not only STAY with a person who like anything Nazi but then get engaged to them?! I’m sorry but she has zero right to accuse him of anything. You KNEW what you were getting into. Stop.
I just checked an instagram account that is called Mansonisabusive and it pulls details from all of his exes’ interviews. According to an interview with DVT in the independent, and other places, she says, of leaving the marriage with BW/MM, that she had “taken a lot of abuse.” She also said he broke all the windows in their house.
It frustrates me because she doesn’t need to make a statement, she has been a victim, and it should be enough she survived. On the other hand, since she chose to, it’s sad and maddening that she clearly hasn’t fully reckoned with all that happened. If she had then she would be able to fully admit that he was abusive when they were together. She could have even said, “If you examine my past interviews, I’ve talked about what happened in that marriage. I need my peace. thank you.” and then people could go digging.
But for her to say she wasn’t ever abused by that piece of disease BW is a lie, by her own words.
You don’t incur abuse either DVT. I hope she gets help; she’s clearly still messed up by what happened even if she doesn’t realize it.
I saw an interview of Dita while she was married to Marilyn Manson and she was saying/uncomfortably joking how he would grab her boobs all the time and offer to let other guys grab her boobs because “he OWNS them now”. -clearly he wanted to own her and he tried to own her but she wasn’t putting up with his crap and left. Maybe bc his actions weren’t extreme she doesn’t see it as “abuse”. Maybe she only thinks abuse equates to physical assault and torture.
In another interview I saw her saw her say that she wasn’t 1000% into getting married but since it had become such a glamour show and the magazine shoot that she felt she had no choice. I think her heart not being 1000% into it was what helped her escape unlike other victims- so she can’t relate to them there, either.
No doubt with the drug use, those later girls went thru Hell 🙁
Taylor Momsen went on your with MM. I want to know what she has to say!
I investigated the purse thing further. She flat out talked about his escalating drug use, and the fact he was having an affair in their house in their house, basically with her full knowledge, in an interview. She also said he was giving interviews detailing his infatuation for ERW while he was married to her and that it was like she “spent six years living with “Mommy Dearest”… That sounds like a somewhat abusive dynamic to me. She didn’t have to make a statement. After reading that interview though, this statement makes more sense and it seems like she still hasn’t completely worked through all of it or let go.
Justjj- Are you talking about the interview titled “Educating Dita”? I read that last night and it gave me another perspective on the whole thing.
I think Dita’s statement sucks, no matter what. BUT tht article I read also made me suspect some things. And this is obv purely speculation on my part. But it sounds like BW was starting to really abuse drugs, and Dita loved him and wanted to get him help. She says something like “I feel like he saw me as unsupportive, but the truth was that I was unsupportive of his lifestyle and he found someone who was.”
I am wondering if maybe Dita doesn’t just see ERW as person who had an affair with her husband and helped end their marriage, but also as someone who enabled BW to continue down that drug spiral.
I *personally* don’t think that anyone can be blamed for BW’s actions but BW. But when I put myself in Dita’s place, I think that must have been heart wrenching to experience and maybe left her with a LOT of emotional stuff that she may not have dealt with. I always thought of it as “he cheated, she let” and that is hard enough, but she loved the guy and saw him become an utter mess. Maybe she blames ERW for that. (Which isn’t reasonable, and is just wrong— but if i am right, I can’t even imagine trying to put out a decent statement in those conditions)
TL/DR Maybe she should have just said “no comment”
Turtledove, she loved a guy who in her own words, would grab at her and offer her body up for others to grab because he “owned it”. Who smashed windows in their home in a rage. Who gifted her nazi memorabilia. Who publicly and repeatedly disrespected her. And now she claims that he wasn’t abusive to her (when demonstrably by her own previous recounting he absolutely was) and that the women who are speaking about his abuse brought it on themselves. She is not a stupid women and knows exactly what incur means and this statement was not off the cuff it was deliberately crafted. She victim blames further by claiming she wouldn’t marry an abusive man, this is an absurd thing to say for anyone because no one knows how they’d react to situations even if they’ve been in them before and because she has previously recounted behaviour of his that was without a shadow of a doubt, abusive. She then suggests the victims “completely realise” themselves.
She’s garbage.
I have a memory that ERW was accused of home wrecking and dupped Dita 2.0 when she and MM got together.
I was talking to a regular the other day about how my ex gaslit me, and how crazy gaslighting is, and how hearing “you’re crazy and inventing things in your own mind” can wear on you. And wear. And wear. And wear on you. Until you believe you really are crazy.
His response “well, I’m far too self confident to let anything like that ever happen to me.”
He’s also the guy that brags about intentionally bothering the autistic guy that hangs around, so.::
“Perfect?” “Amazing?”
This DVT statement is anything BUT perfect. I’ll grant it “amazing,” but only because it is AMAZING in its gaslighting, victim-blaming, self-aggrandising bullshit – and the total absence of any acknowledgement that MM was and is an abusive, despicable scumbag.