Spoilers for past seasons of Grey’s Anatomy
Ellen Pompeo debuted a podcast last year, in which she interviews notable guests about various topics. She told that absurd story about Denzel in the Debbie Allen episode. But aside from that, her podcast has some pretty interesting guests. In addition to her current and former Grey’s Anatomy costars, she’s also interviewed interesting people like Yara Shahidi, Michele Harper, Lindsay Peoples Wagner, etc. Basically, the podcast is more than that stupid story.
In the latest episode, Ellen’s guest is former/returning Grey’s Anatomy costar Kate Walsh. Kate recently revived her Addison Montgomery character on Grey’s for the first time in 10 seasons and will be returning for a few more episodes this spring. Ellen and Kate have a nice, easy rapport. It’s friendly and familiar, but not overly close, and mirrors their characters in that way. Of course, the two discussed Grey’s and their time together on the show and unexpectedly, Katherine Heigl came up as they were discussing work/life balance. Both women agreed with Katherine’s past comments about the long hours on TV sets.
Ellen Pompeo agrees with Katherine Heigl.
The actress, 52, backed her former Grey’s Anatomy costar’s comments about the long and grueling hours for filming the long-running ABC medical drama during the latest episode of her Tell Me podcast.
Joined by another Grey’s Anatomy alum, Kate Walsh — who is set to return to the series for another guest arc in the show’s current season — Pompeo and Walsh, 54, discussed comments that Heigl, 43, made over a decade ago about working on the series.
“I remember Heigl said something on a talk show about the insane hours we were working and she was 100 percent right,” Pompeo said Wednesday. “And had she said that today, she’d be a complete hero. But she’s ahead of her time, made a statement about our crazy hours and of course, [it was like] let’s slam a woman and call her ungrateful.”
Added Pompeo: “When the truth is, she’s 100 percent honest and it’s absolutely correct what she said. She was f—— ballsy for saying it — she was telling the truth. She wasn’t lying!”
Heigl’s comments about the long hours on the Grey’s Anatomy set were made during a 2009 episode of The Late Show with David Letterman. At the time, the medical series was in its sixth season.
“I’m gonna keep saying this ’cause I hope it embarrasses them,” the 27 Dresses star shared during her appearance, explaining how a typical workday for stars was 17 hours, which she described as being “cruel and mean.”
On Tell Me, Walsh said she supported Pompeo’s backing of Heigl. “There’s nothing natural about [the filming process],” she said. “There’s nothing human about it.”
“It’s made for a machine, it’s as if we’re a camera or a mic that just goes and goes and goes,” Walsh added. “And it’s not conducive to any kind of healthy habits.”
Grey’s Anatomy — which airs Thursdays at 9 p.m. ET/PT on ABC — returns to television May 5.
[From People via Yahoo! Entertainment]
If Katherine Heigl made those comments in 2009, it was right around the time she kept getting in trouble for comments that were perceived as rude and ungrateful. I wasn’t watching the show as it aired then, but even I remember the tabloid narrative. Supposedly Katherine had let her movie success go to her head and was rude on the Grey’s set and publicly complained about the quality of her storyline in season 4 — a season that was cut short by the writers’ strike of 2008. She even went so far as to withdraw her name from Emmy consideration, saying that the work didn’t merit it, which kind of seems like a slap in the face of the writers. And then her Izzy character got the ghost sex cancer wedding storyline in season 5 and was unceremoniously written off in season 6. There were even unconfirmed rumors Izzy was supposed to come back and die in the hospital shooting episode, but Katherine didn’t show up for the guest appearance. All this to say, she was persona non grata around Grey’s and Shondaland for awhile. There was even a point where Shonda used her name as a synonym for asshole, saying “there are no Heigls” about one of her other sets.
Anyway, Ellen and Kate agreeing with Katherine now is a bit weak. I don’t remember those comments Katherine made about the long hours because she was saying so much other stuff around then, so the most reasonable and therefore least headline-worthy comments got lost in the shuffle. What Katherine said was perfectly reasonable, except the part about “I hope it embarrasses them.” I think most people would balk at that. But I don’t remember anyone from the show, and definitely not Ellen, ever agreeing with her back then. Maybe because they were fed up with her from on-set interactions, or a little bitter over those popular movies, or trying to stay on Shonda/production’s good side, I don’t know. It’s easy for them to agree with Katherine now, on this very narrow issue, when work/life balance and burnout is so prevalent in the public consciousness. We’ve heard again and again that the set was toxic. It would have been a wild podcast if they spilled more dirt on what things were actually like off-camera at that time, but alas, we will have to continue to wait for that tea.
photos credit: Avalon.red and InStar
If the set is toxic then that’s Shonda’s fault. The fish tots from the top. No one ever talks about it but I think she’s a bit toxic and fosters that kind of environment. She’s said some sketch things in the past, not to mention using someone’s name as a psynonym for a$$hole is so childish. That’s not how a leader should behave.
Unrelated- Kate and Anthony’s story echoes Olivia and Fitz in some places- the Go In side lines, the finger touch, so many more places. I really think that kind of forbidden love thing is Shondas fantasy.
PS- can’t stand Ellen Pompeii and her anti-Blackness.
I don’t watch Grey’s, and was a baby when this all went down, but I thought I picked up on a bit of what you are saying here when Shonda talked about Regé-Jean Page. I can’t put my finger on it exactly, but the way she ran in to shut down his breakout and take all the credit for casting him. It was something along the lines of “of course he’s hot, that’s what I do”. I remember reading her interview about him and it just raised my eyebrow. I thought to myself, she is mad about all of this.
Agree about Pompeii. I really know nothing about Heigl.
Grtey’s anatomy is my guilty pleasure.
Ellen Pompeo has been done with the show for a while now. She stays for the paycheck, we all get it.
Personally I have never been a fan of Izzy Stevens/Catherine Heigl. She had some interesting moment, but I have never missed her, and never understood all the hype. Ellen Pompeo is making millions, so the least she can do is STFU and figure out how to get rid of Meredith Grey.
She cast him in For The People. Bridgerton was the second Shondaland project be appeared in. She gave him two opportunities. Of course she can take some credit. No one else was hiring him, even after his appearance in the Roots remake.
You’re correct. She is “a bit toxic and fosters that kind of environment.”
I have a relative who was a writer on Private Practice. Shonda is *brutal* to work for. The kind of criticism she gave to her writers? YIKES, I would not last one day working for her.
Everything I’ve ever heard about the Grey’s set sounds miserable. The money must be great because it’s not at all a secret at this point, and I can’t believe it’s still rolling.
Well, at the time the response from GA was that her hours were long because they were accommodating her movie filming schedule, but whether that was true or not, who knows? It’s interesting that people are starting to spill the GA secrets after keeping quiet for so long, but it’s probably because they’re all so rich and so bored that they don’t care any more: what can the production company or network do to them at this point? But I don’t really care about 15 year old gossip. I care about why Justin Chambers suddenly disappeared and his character’s departure derailed a bunch of storylines, and no-one is talking about that.
I too remember GA saying it was only to accommodate Katherine’s filming. TV has always had long hours. I don’t know if 17 was the norm for GA or just for a short time. Justine leaving was really weird and didn’t make sense. Negotiations must have fell through because he and other regulars had a completely new storyline that just fell apart.
I think Katherine has engaged in a bit of revisionism about her own remarks lately. She was very much talking about the long hours she worked, and didn’t mention the crew who worked longer than she did. I always thought there was right and wrong on both sides. Some of the stuff she said was right about; the long hours on Greys, the sexism in knocked up, but there were other times when she should have stayed quiet; not thinking the quality of writing was good enough to submit for an emmy.
I know a 2AD that worked on the show at the time and the entire crew hated Heigel. Yes the long hours were to accommodate her shooting schedule-but she was also awful and cruel to everyone on the crew.
The quality of her part had gone down because she opted to go make some movies, and then she threw the writing team under the bus. Hence why they wrote the Denny ghost stuff in revenge.
This is revisionist history.
No, it’s someone else’s perspective. If most of the crew was male, it only takes one and next thing you know “everybody” hates her. It sounds to me like there are a lot of personalities at play here, and a lot of isms.
@Trina, I agree with your assessment.
“The quality of her part had gone down because she opted to go make some movies”
This is revisionist itself. I remember a distinct low point for Izzie. They had KH’s character, a human doctor, revive a deer before she even did knocked up or 27 dresses. The horrible ghost sex was long after.
@oh hey absolutely! I watched the first 6-7 seasons of GA and that deer thing was ridiculous and what Heigl said about the writing.
Boy, Ellen sure seems determined to tear it all down. Basically, her entire career & body of work she’s just slowly setting ablaze.
I don’t get it. She’s a multi millionaire.
She’s so obviously miserable being there, & making it miserable for others.
New cast members are like woohoo! It’s a big thing to get cast in such a long running show. That guy from Nashville, he’s lucky cause his acting stinks.
But she’s just miserable miserable.
I can’t watch it anymore, it was like trauma porn after a while. It affected my mood way too much.
“Boy, Ellen sure seems determined to tear it all down”
Honestly yes but the thing is, she can. She’s made so much money from this show she can live in luxury and never work again the minute she’s done.
And I think she also realizes she’s not a major talent and she’s a woman over 50 in Hollywood; so once this show’s done she’s not likely moving on to anything major. I think combined, rightly or wrongly that gives someone a sense of “free to speak their mind”. It’s interesting…well…it’s something.
She signed on for one more season because they offered her $20M. IMO, she’s always been the weakest character on the show. Christina (for the win!), Izzy, Alex, George…all of them were so much more interesting than her whining. And frankly, I got tired of Derek’s sad, doe eyes pretty quickly (give me McSteamy ANY day over Derek!)
Frankly, this show should’ve ended on a high note about 5 yrs ago. I’m kind of hate-watching at this point, not really caring about any of them. I just feel like I invested *so* many years, I can’t quit until it does lol
Poor Heigl.
Agreed.
Overworking someone – 17 hrs a day, day after day, does change them.
Their behaviour will become erratic. They will become less nice, flexible, media savvy even.
They then punish that.
Why has noone ever questioned Shonda as not being the best boss in the world.
I know people have labeled her difficult to work with, and she probably was. Thing is, I would be too if I had to work 17 hrs/day.
Heigl had a disruptive and entitled reputation on the set of Roswell–which is why I never sympathized with her moaning at the height of her fame.
How convenient that Ellen is now coming to Heigl’s defense now! What happened when she first was making the claims?
As for GA, I have NO idea WHY this show is still on….they should have pulled the plug years ago!!
Nothing Heigl said was wrong.
The women in Knocked Up WERE portrayed as shrill and unfunny. Leslie Mann’s character is honestly awful in that movie (and I like the movie!). She was asked about the Emmys and she said she didn’t submit herself from consideration because she didn’t think the work warranted it – which was accurate for season 4. And based on this conversation, she was right about the ridiculous long hours, too.
Honestly, Shonda seems like she can be difficult to work with herself, and given the many toxic reports from GA’s sets, it doesn’t seem like she’s been a great boss. at least on that set.
Apparently the storyline complaint is rooted in the Isiah Washington fiasco. If everyone remembers, Washington was repeatedly homophobic to TR Knight and Heigl backed Knight, both on set and publicly. The PR fallout forced Shonda to fire Washington, and Shonda retaliated by deliberately giving Heigl AND Knight terrible storylines and dialog to perform and scheduling them for the worst hours. Knight quit out of frustration (people forget this part) but Heigl stuck around and again went public with her complaints. Since Shonda was using her power to torture the people who sided against her favorite bigot, I don’t think it was inappropriate for Heigl to try and sting Shonda where she thought it might hurt. (And for the record, Heigl was right, the writing was terrible.)
TR kept his mouth shut so Shonda occasionally throws him a bone, but nothing substantial. Dempsey, who was also tangentially involved on the right side for once, also largely kept his mouth shut and is protected by his straight white maleness. Shonda’s power grew even more and she was able to get Washington back on Grey’s, but always talks sh*t about Heigl, which undoubtedly has hurt Heigl’s career in television*. Meanwhile, NOT A WORD about Washington’s behavior, which has only become even more unhinged over the years.
Shondaland has a real scandal coming its way at some point. Probably like every other megalomaniac in Hollywood, we’ll have to wait until she has a run of failures before people feel comfortable enough to come forward.
*(And this isn’t the first time Shonda’s done this – the creator of GCB indicated that Shonda used her influence to kill her show at ABC, but that’s more of a rumor.)
What you are saying is what I have suspected. Shondaland does Bridgerton, so she still has a lot of power. Also, as always, a lot of things can be true at once. Heigle could be difficult, and ignoring that the crew suffers more than the actors is wrong, and the on set situation can be toxic. TR Knight is the only one who comes out of this looking good. George was the best.
This is what kills me. People forget that TR hasn’t said anything positive about her and keeps his mouth shut. Shonda was mad about having to get rid of Washington and his MAGA loving butt. Heigl was accurate in what she was saying, but the problem was she got the she’s so ungrateful label so she was ignored which was frustrating as heck to watch.
And Ellen and Kate kind of suck for now years later saying oh she was right. I think Ellen feels salty about Shonda now because she’s still doing Grey’s and not really able to pivot to other things and Shonda isn’t involving her on other projects.
Meh. The Washington saga was completely muddied by Knight and Heigl using it to boost their own profile. I’ve never cared for IW, but I saw the story unfold from a blind item in the tabloids to IW’s infamous blurting the word at the awards show. It was never a case of IW being homophobic, the incident was happening during the power struggle between him and Dempsey, and PD’s nasty & bullying behavior (much of it towards Knight) onset.
Sounds like a fun crew!
I thought I remembered PD being involved in this, too, but couldn’t remember how. I was surprised when he agreed to come back for a few scenes because I thought he left under less than ideal circumstances and that Ellen Pompeo and the crew were glad to be rid of him.
@Gigi,
Washington outed Knight to his family. I would hardly say that was a “boost” to his career. No one has a right to use horrific homophobic slurs against another person or take away their right to choose how, when, or if they want to come out. Knight was forced to address the situation when the speculation became too much to handle. Heigl stood up for her friend. Any real friend would do the same.
And Washington didn’t just do it once, he did it twice when he reiterated his homophobic slur at the Golden Globes. He then said in 2007, regarding the incident, that he had a right to, “free speech.” That is not a man who is free from homophobia. That is a man who expects that he can say any hateful thing he wants and get away with it.
@gigi your comment is so ridiculous and infuriating. Would you like to make more excuses for someone’s homophobia?? Let me be very clear because you dont seem to understand NOBODY deserves to have slurs hurled at them in a work environment. NOBODY.
As I said–I saw the situation unfold from the beginning. Heigl actually outted Knight when she went to the media to discuss a situation that Rhimes/ABC was trying to mediate behind the scenes. Dempsey was regularly bullying Knight and when he tried it on Washington, that’s when Washington said the word (though, the initial tabloid reports said the sentence was “I’m not your little b*tch like TR”). The only reason why the incident has been revised through history as solely about IW being homophobic is because he stupidly tried to clear his name on camera by using the word. Meanwhile, Dempsey has been erased from the narrative, even though he caused the drama, and nobody seems to remember the sequence of events (the aforementioned Heigl involvement).
As more and more stories of toxic behavior leaks out, she seems due for a takedown article or book on Shondaland.
Even on Shondaland series that didn’t appear to have had quite so many public clashes and outbursts, there have been actors who were unhappy. Tim Daly has been candid about his disappointment while working as part of the ensemble cast of Private Practice, and it wasn’t about his costars—his character seemed to be written out of the show rather abruptly (but he did find Madame Secretary to be a refreshingly different experience).
Washington was terrible and Heigle and Knight used his trashiness to boost their careers. Shonda isn’t perfect and I don’t watch GA and didn’t get past season 2 of Scandal but she is a black woman in the entertainment business. She has had to be tough and make herself formidable to be successful. It would be so easy for two white actors to tear down her years of hard work. That is how much power white people have in this world. There are no innocents here but let us not forget how power works.
As a black woman, who has invariably faced racism and sexism, I would have hoped she would have taken a strong stance against one of her staff being a victim of hate language. She did not. She gave Wasington a pass until Washington repeated his gross slur at an awards show and then she was forced to take action bc of pressure applied by people like Heigl and Knight. Heigl and Knight should never had to do that because Sonda shouldnt have allowed that kind of hate on her set. Let’s also not forget that she has continued to invite Washington back for episodes and not Heigl.
Ugh. There is no reason WOC in media have to replicate the same shitty behavior that was/is perpetrated on us. This is the same toxic “girlboss” crap that excuses white women from throwing each under the bus. Shonda should know better. _Way_ better. And no one’s success ever makes up for treating people lousy. (Especially in Hollywood, where folks have long memories and one scandal gives people an excuse to “forget” all the success you had.) Maybe Shonda should read up on Joss Whedon, whose career was seemingly unassailable too.
I’m re-watching ‘Ally McBeal’ right now and am amazed at how, starting right in Season One, they are still so relevant. They’ve had a trans character (this is Season 1 = 1997) and I. Washington is on one episode, playing a fellow who sues the ‘Renee’ character for assault after she kick-boxes him down for attempting to sexually assault her. This is apropos of nothing except seeing I. Washington’s name brought up in this context has me really thinking about life imitating art and vice versa.
I just finished re-watching Madame Secretary in honour of Mme Secretary, Madeline Albright’s passing and did not know that about Tim Daly. I’ve quietly liked him and enjoyed his work since his ‘Wings’ days. I’ve never seen ‘Private Practice’ but for no reason whatsoever, I trust Daly’s assessment.
Yeah too little too late, they should’ve had Katherine’s back at the time instead of letting her take the heat in the press and be labeled a demanding bitch.
Exactly.
That’s my takeaway too! What good is their support and validation all these years later, instead of when she needed it?
The shooting schedules were long to accommodate Kathryn Heigel’s outside project. Famously Tom Selleck was initially offered Indiana Jones, but the movie couldn’t be shot around Magnum PI, he didn’t get to do it. Kathryn Heigel and her Manager Mom were known for being ridiculously entitled and demanding. You can object to the writing that got you a nomination without being a self-righteous twit about it. I don’t care if you’re a man or a woman, you don’t have to be a jerk. It’s typical that certain people whine because they behaved badly and then the black woman gets thrown under the bus. The only ones on that set who seemed to behave like they had a lick of professional sense in their head is Sandra Oh, Chandra Wilson, Justin Chambers and James Pickens jr.
Oh well then that’s different, but both things could be true as well. The hours were still long and demanding with or without working around her schedule, right? The rumors about the toxic set persisted long after Katherine left. I still hear rumblings, even the way Justin Chambers hauled ass out of there was abrupt, his storyline was in no way heading to an end and they wrote him out in such a petty way it had to be on purpose.
I worked in production in LA at the beginning of Grey’s. Production culture was at the time unsafe, long hours from set to strike (i was on set for 20 hours once and was like, should i drive myself home? My male colleagues would sometimes sleep in their cars). Shonda was super unpleasant to be around. I chalked it up as a woman of color making her way in the good old boys club (I am also a woman and the misogyny wasn’t hidden in the mid-00’s). Maybe there was something more to it than that.
Sounds like a lot of strong personalities at play. I have to say I didn’t know about the workplace bullying of Knight because he’s gay. I never heard about that. That’s disgusting and should never be tolerated by anybody for any reason.
Oh that was a huge deal at the time, you should look up the drama with Isaiah Washington and T.R Knight, and after it all went down they cut Knight’s character practically out of the show, and when he was there they had him doing things so out of character it was ridiculous. So really I still don’t know if I buy this was all Katherine’s fault, the set sounds toxic asf on many levels.?
17 hours isn’t the normal day due to turnaround issues in union contracts, so this was not an every day occurrence.
everyone in the industry works these hours when it’s necessary and it does suck. I once worked 36 hours in a row on a film. But the stars’ paychecks make up for it more than most peoples.
Ellen is just so ungrateful and whiny. Did she mention the crew and people who had to be there before the actors? I’m guessing not.
I mean to be fair to them, they are some what right. See the response over the mess of production that Euphoria is and also how younger people view the fall-out of Katherine now, if Katherine said Knocked up was sexist, that Grey’s didn’t had good material because of the ghost sex and the whole thing about the hours it will be received different today, it already is.
Kate and Ellen seem to make the point that they put up with a lot of things because they knew how they were going to be perceived, and I guess that was the difference with Heigl. Now the first two are settled and can pick and choose what to deal with, say whatever and Katherine is still battling with the labels.
You don’t cross Shonda. If you dare your character gets brain cancer or hit by a bus or run over by a car.
So they are showing weak support for Heigl over a decade later?
They could have said that they worked long hours in the set, but no, they quote Heigl? I grew up in the same area as EP (& I think that she still lives nearby?) and I think I understand her mentality and the mentality of professional women like her: this Heigl reference seems to be motivated by guilt. Just my take.
I don’t remember people being that upset at her working hours comments, but more the very public “the writing sucks so I’m withdrawing from Emmy consideration” stuff. But maybe it was the culmination of all of it.
That set sounds toxic AF. Shonda has said repeatedly that she has a “no a-holes policy” yet there seems to be a lot of behind the scenes drama on all her shows. I’ve seen a few other showrunners who have said that over the years too, and their sets seem more harmonious, or maybe they just hide it better because they aren’t soapy shows.
Holy crap, Meredith Gray is 53?!
How very brave of them to defend her how, after all these years.
Too little too late? Is Ellen just now speaking up because she can’t be punished for picking sides? Honestly, she can choke because I haven’t forgotten all the comments she’s made in recent times she thinks she can get away with just because she’s married to a Black guy.
Whether Katherine Heigl was difficult to work with, I don’t know (women are always said to be “difficult” if they have actual opinions”, but it was very easy to make her the scapegoat of everything because how things just came out. Toxic work environments like that are typically sanctioned by the ones in charge & in this case, all roads lead to Shonda Rhimes.
If the actors on Grey’s Anatomy were working 17 hour days. Be rest assured crew were working 20+ hours. I’ve spent many a night in the wardrobe van catching a quick 2 hrs. Our work starts long before cast get to set and ends long after they wrap (washing, steaming and prepping for next day) Things have improved since 2009. I will say that much. Homeland was also like that (2014) . I still have panic attacks thinking about my time on that set. I remember a particularly hideous 27 & a ½ hour day that ended in a crew member falling asleep at the wheel and spending 2 years in and out of hospital. We routinely worked 6 & 7 days a week. It was brutal
I’m sorry to hear that, I really liked Homeland. Is it really necessary to work those kind of hours in shooting a show or are they just being a-holes with the scheduling? Sounds brutal for everyone involved.
Why don’t we ever get juicy deets about ER? THat show was way better.
I like it when people spill the tea years later.
I wouldn’t expect them to do it when they`re at the height of their career and have a lot to lose. Everyone has to play nice in the press when they’re younger. When different versions of the truth come out later, I understand the timing.
I think Heigl is blunt, but I’ve never really thought of her as a truly mean person. Not in the spirit of true Hollywood mean-ness, I think. That’s probably why I shrug when I read articles about her. Anyway, she left that show a long time ago….and yet we still hear about how that set was weird even after she left.
Long time Grey’s Anatomy fan here. I do wish they would end things soon, because it needs to. After they horribly wrote off Alex Karev’s character, I was beyond pissed! Clearly this set was toxic AF, and the stories that have come out over the years, AND just keep coming up, validate this. I am not sure what good it really does for Ellen and Kate to say this stuff now. And if memory serves me correctly, this really was not the issue with Katherine Heigl. She got her horrible rep for withdrawing her name from Emmy nomination for saying the writing didn’t merit her being there (for her Emmy nom); and other rumors of her being a diva. That is my recollection. Obviously, there was bad blood between her and Shonda – Shonda gave her horrible storylines, called her an asshole in later interviews. I am not defending Shonda, but that move on Heigl’s part of withdrawing her name? WTF. It has become clear when an actor/actress pisses off Shonda, you get hit by a bus, or get written off in a shitty way LOL.
#facts.
The whole debacle with Issiah Washington, TR Knight, and Heigl, and even Dempsey – ugh!! Just gross. I didn’t know the complete story about the whole incident, but apparently IW did really out TR Knight when he did not want his homosexuality to be open to anyone. That is despicable. I loved George O’Malley’s character and his death was one of the worst on the show. Also, I did like Preston Burke as a character, but had no idea about Issiah Washington’s real character. And as far as Patrick Dempsey – I was so over his character by the end. I would take Mark Sloan aka McSteamy over his ass any day! McDreamy evolved into an asshole, as far as I am concerned. I am glad he’s gone.
Finally, Christina Yang – best fucking character on that show!! Yang is the Queen – miss her to death! But I am so happy to see Sandra Oh killing it in her projects after Grey’s!
I am unsure about how much of this is down to Shonda Rhimes, who talked about the grueling pace ABC set on their productions when she quit them and started to work for Netflix and realized that you don’t have to work those extreme hours for long periods of time and how much better she felt now she could set her own pace.