It just occurred to me that I really don’t give Sir Ian McKellen enough love. I’ve always liked the man – the first time I think I was ever aware of his acting presence was in the 1998 film Gods and Monsters, where Sir Ian played James Whale, the director of the original Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein films. Which basically means I’ve been Sir Ian’s fan for more than a decade, but at least give me credit for knowing who he was before Lord of the Rings and X-Men.
Anyway, Sir Ian has a new interview in Details Magazine. It’s a lovely, charming interview with a man who has basically seen it all and done it all. The biggest headline out of this interview is slightly unfortunate, though, and I’m afraid Sir Ian might face the wrath of a lot of Christians. Just keep this in mind – he’s gay, and he’s not ashamed of his life, and he doesn’t think much of institutionalized and codified homophobia. Details asks Sir Ian, “Is it true that when you stay at hotels you tear out the Bible page that condemns homosexuality?” Sir Ian answers: “I do, absolutely. I’m not proudly defacing the book, but it’s a choice between removing that page and throwing away the whole Bible.” Here’s the full interview:
Details: I heard you were dreading turning 70. Why?
Ian McKellen: I don’t really like being with people my own age for long periods, because all we talk about is our decrepitude, how the world is changing for the worse even though it isn’t. When you grumble about a taxi being dirty, people your own age will absolutely agree with you, whereas younger people say, “You should be so lucky to have a taxi—I walk to work!” So I have lots of young friends, who fortunately don’t treat me as a guru, a person that knows all the answers. I’m just one of the gang—trying to get through it, you know?Details: You didn’t come out until you were 49. Did having to put on an act make it easier to do so professionally?
Ian McKellen: That’s a very good point. I think that explains why a lot of actors of my generation are gay. Acting was a means to publicly display my emotions in a way that was illegal for me to do as a private person. Outside London where I lived, there was no gay pub or bar you could go to. And even if you found one, it was “Knock three times and ask for Louis.” It was horrible living this secret life. You could feel a little bit what it was like to be a Jew in central Europe during a certain period. It was horrible.Details: Are there any real benefits to being a “Sir?” Do you get bumped up to first class when you fly?
Ian McKellen: No, I don’t. It’s actually more of an annoyance, that title. And I don’t think I’m a saint. It’s all nonsense really, but if you live in a society where there are civilian awards, it seems a little bit churlish to say “I don’t want it.” I’m just trying to think of one advantage and I don’t think there is one.Details: There can’t be many gay knights. Do you all ever get together or plan outings?
Ian McKellen: Well, there have been many gay knights in the past—like Sir Noël Coward, or Sir John Gielgud. But the difference between them and people like myself and Sir Tony Sher is that we are out and they weren’t. But no—no, we don’t get together. I think we all find it slightly embarrassing. We should probably have said we won’t accept it—we only need one generation to do that and the tradition would wither away. What’s a little uncomfortable is you think the Establishment wants to absorb everybody. The problem with refusing the title is, if society decides that you are qualified for knighthood, then they have to take you seriously.Details: Have you ever wanted to get married?
Ian McKellen: It’s never crossed my mind that it’d ever be possible for me. That’s the scar that I and so many others bear—we believed ourselves to be second-rate citizens for so long, the idea of being able to say “This is my husband, these are my children” was not an option. I remember Tom Stoppard saying to me when I came out, “I feel so sorry for you, because you’ll never have children.” These days I would say, “Well, why not, Tom?” But 20 years ago I accepted his judgment.Details: Is it true that when you stay at hotels you tear out the Bible page that condemns homosexuality?
Ian McKellen: I do, absolutely. I’m not proudly defacing the book, but it’s a choice between removing that page and throwing away the whole Bible. And I’m not really the first: I got delivered a package of 40 of those pages—Leviticus 18:22—that had been torn out by a married couple I know. They put them on a bit of string so that I could hang it up in the bathroom.Details: So did you?
Ian McKellen: It is in the bathroom, yes, but it’s too much of a curiosity to actually put to use.Details: Does it trouble you that after becoming one of the great Shakespearean players you’ll probably be remembered as the wizard from a CGI blockbuster?
Ian McKellen: I’m well aware that when I go, the London Evening Standard billboard is going to say GANDALF DIES. No, it’s fine. Gandalf is a great character, and I ride on the back of his popularity, not the other way around. And you could say I’ve missed out on having kids but I’ve grandfathered so many children through the role.Details: Your film Gods and Monsters deals with seduction across a big age gap. Seeing as you’re still single, has the art of seduction changed for you?
Ian McKellen: [laughing] Well, I’ve never been good at seducing, and I’ve never wanted to be seduced. You might be surprised by how interested young people are in older people. It’s always assumed that the older person is the predator, but in fact you see young people out at the pubs approaching older people.Details: Why do you think that is?
Ian McKellen: Because they think the old people know more and they’re wise. The huge difference in my lifetime is that you can just go up to somebody and make a pass. You couldn’t do that in the 1950s if you were gay. There were secret handshakes, a secret language. There was nowhere you could go to be romantic outside of people’s houses.
Details:It’s rumored that you have a tattoo.Ian McKellen: I do. It’s of the number nine in elvish, because there are nine members in The Fellowship of the Ring.
Details: Did getting it hurt?
Ian McKellen: I don’t remember. But Elijah Wood was holding my hand the entire time.
[From Details]
Oh, please don’t boycott him, Christians. He’s a good man! And he’s not defacing the whole Bible, just the one part of it that is used to disrespect his sexuality. Also, I love when he talks about all of the “young people” who hit on the older folks. I bet Sir Ian gets all kinds of the crazy, gay LOTR fanboys with a Gandalf fetish. Oh, I bet he gets the gay X-Men fanboys too! If I was a gay fanboy, I would hit it. He’s so cute!
Here’s Sir Ian McKellen at the Breakfast at Tiffany’s press night held at The Theatre Royal Haymarket in London on September 29th. Images thanks to WENN.com .
How mature!
How dare God disrespect his sexuality, I mean it’s not like God understands human sexuality and human nature! Oh ya I forgot! He is the Author of it.
He’s a great actor, but I do feel sorry for him.
Good for him, there’s plenty of evidence for gay people and NONE at all for an invisible hateful petty deity who ‘loves’ you with major conditions attached.
Annie: Isn’t God the author of every action and thought of all occupants of planet earth, including Ian?
I like the way his words sound – unpretentious.
Not sure how that bible ripping thing goes as far as sins go. I can understand why he does it but i guess he could have just asked them to remove it from the room.
Slightly disappointed yet still intrigued by him.
God may understand human sexuality, but He didn’t write the Bible.
Wow, good point annie! Can’t argue with a well constructed, logical argument like that!
And I agree it’s very mature. I would throw away the entire bible.
Well, except for that part about hope, love and faith (corinthians?), you know, love is patient, love is kind, etc. That is beautiful, I wish christians would remember more often how love is the greatest good.
Will he tear out similar pages from The Koran? I doubt it!!
What God understands and what Christians respect and tolerate are very different things. I expect God understands Sir Ian’s pain and why he does what he does, and loves him anyway. Funny how God works.
Controversial passage aside, I like this interview. You can really hear him in it, and I would really love to have a beer with him some afternoon. He’s undoubtedly got great stories.
@ Leticia – Do you know the page/passage numbers for the similar sections of the Koran? Also, is the Koran regularly stocked in EVERY hotel room? Because if you’ll help me out I’ll tear out those pages, whenever I find them unsolicited in a hotel room.
Annie sweetheart, need I remind you that MEN wrote the bible. MEN who claimed to have received instruction from GOD? So who is to say even if they did actually receive some divine inspiration they didnt interject it with a bit of their own agenda? I’m pretty damn sure the bible wasn’t zapped down here from the heavens after your God finished putting the finishing touches on it and running it past his proofreaders. It is a BOOK written by MEN who claimed to speak to GOD. Its funny how if you claim to speak to god these days you are considered a nut case and yet millions of people still buy into the fact that a bunch of guys spoke to him long long ago. Did I mention Im not a christian? 😉
Annie, God didn’t author the bible…man did
What a great idea! I’m gonna start doing that every time I’m in a hotel room. Thanks Ian!
God is NOT the author of every action, etc. At least that is not christian belief. He did give us free will though.
I do feel sorry for him and for others who face this. But defacing the Bible sounds pretty childish.
I understand totally why a man of his years would deface a book that call him an abomination. Why should he give it respect?
Elijah Wood held his hand while he got a tatoo! That’s so freakin’ cute!
OK back to Ian as an ACTOR. Have you seen him in Cold Comfort Farm? He’s awsome!!!!!
annie: FYI… people wrote the bible.
‘Christian’ and cant get enough of this guy!!! i love him!
Love him, love everything about him.
We used to use pages of the Bible to roll joints when we were out of papers.
I love Ian. My favorite was the nazi he protrayed on the movie Apt Pupil.. And also..I too believe the bible was authored by men who did NOT recieve devine inspiration from GOD. An interesting book I read a few years ago is called Misquoting Jesus don’t remember the authors name..Excellent analysis on the history of the bible..
Typical that many Christians don’t even understand the origins (plural because there is more than one iteration of it) of the Bible or any other ‘holy’ book for that matter. Just keep on believin’ what your minister tells ya!! God forbid you think for yourself:)
And what an excellent idea! I’m going to start tearing out that section as well!
God inspired the writers of the bible,the MEN who wrote the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and no God is not the author of all our actions and thoughts, we are, it’s free will.
LOL, annie. I don’t think you’re going to win this one.
girl – That logic is flawed. Either God is omnipotent, Alpha and Omega, before/after/always OR humans have free will. If God is omnipotent then the day He created Existence He knew that Sir Ian McKellen would one day tear Leviticus 18:22 out of every Bible he came across. Not only did He know it would happen, He CREATED in such a way that it would happen, therefore all that occurs is His Will, not Man’s.
Whatever your beliefs, the bottom line is that we do not remove texts from books that we disagree with. That is tantamount to book burning. I don’t agree with texts from several books, but I do not rip out the offending texts. Ripping things out of a book doesn’t make the words go away.
Gods will is that we have and use our free will. Therefore, God is omnipotent. Therefore, humans have free will. Its both.
Youd think that for something as powerful as God, it wouldnt be so entirely simple as yes/no, black/white. Our human brains dont like things that dont fit into neat little boxes or follow man-devised rules of logic. Isnt God greater than logic….?
Go Ian! I mean Sir Ian! 🙂
God inspired the writers of various books that Christian groups have tried to have banned, too. Funny guy, that God. Lots of mixed messages.
Even if God imbued us with the ability to think and decide for ourselves (which obviously we do for the most part), He knew what we would decide before we even existed. He created all of us the way we are. We can’t make a decision that He doesn’t know we are going to make before we make it and that He did not create us to make.
And to say God would be above logic is ridiculous. Why would He gift us with the ability to think logically if we weren’t supposed to use it? Personally, at the Gates I would rather be able to say that I used the tools, gifts and information at my disposal to do the best that I could than to just say “they” said a book, that not only contradicts logic but itself quite a bit, was The Word, so I just went along with it.
It’s not the same at all Firestarter, people don’t claim to live by the words of Harry Potter or the Satanic Verses. They are considered fiction, offensive to some but fiction nonetheless, the bible-which I consider fiction- is held by many to be the true word of God, and Ian, as a person, is an abomination. I am not saying he is right in what he does, but damned if I don’t understand why he does it.
For me to say God is bigger than logic, is not the same as to say that God doesnt want US to USE logic. Absolutely not what I implied.
I was referrig to the duality present in the fact that we are free to choose, but that God ordained us to be free, as being outside of the realm of simple logic which usually establishes an ‘either or’ situation. Here we have both coexisting. Thus the petty simplicity of logic cant come anywhere near the grandeur and complexity of that called God, who yes, created it, and everything else, but is not slave to any one bit of his creation– or he wouldn’t be fit to be called God.
they may have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, but they didn’t take dictation from Him.
MAN wrote the Bible, annie, and certainly put his own slant on lots of things in there to keep the Christians in line.
Stories are exaggerated to make points, and some of those stories are completely made up (insert gasp of shock!) to make points.
I’m SO doing this the next time I stay at a hotel.
The bible says a lot of things that nobody follows anymore, despite Christians claiming that the bible is the absolute true word of god. But you won’t see your Christian neighbors throwing away all their polyblend clothing, or refusing to eat shrimp and lobster because it’s an abomination, or killing their son for being disrespectful. Christians choose not to pay attention to those parts of the bible, but will shove Leviticus 18:22 at people when defending their homophobia…pathetic hypocrites.
God didn’t author it. Some MAN did. And then scores of generations of men after that altered the original “divine inspiration” of that “prophet” (if we are to interpret this as generously as possible) through language translations, political and ideaological edits, and manipulations that have ensured we don’t necessarily have the full context or substance. How do we not know the remaining “missing” part of the passage in question says “unless they be married, then sodomize away???” Because you know what? it could happen. God’s kinda into Free Will like that. Or so i Hear.
There is no compromise, you ether take the bible as a WHOLE or not at all, it’s black and white. That being said however, I’m not a gay basher, i’m a tolerant christian, but then again I didn’t make the “no gay” policy God did.
Propaganda is propaganda, no matter how long ago it was written.
I’m not big on censorship, but I can empathize with the frustration of having bigoted rhetoric 3 feet from your bed. Hotel bibles don’t really get a lot of wear and tear anyways. . . (bad pun, sorry.)
It’s not the behavior I’d expect from a 70-year-old man, but I guess that makes Ian McKellen a punk rocker. Rock on with your bad self, Sir. Rock on.
Sounds a bit spiteful to me. Sure, the Bible is filled with a lot of fables, and worse, hypocritical crap that insults all sorts of people – not just gays.
My advice to McKellen and all you other Bible burners is get over it. The really mature thing to do would be just take the high road and ignore whatever book is placed in the drawer of your hotel. Don’t feed your anger by destroying the property of others…
There have been at least 17 chapters of the Bible removed since the middle ages. The Bible has been altered through time to suit the needs of the Popes and the Catholic church. Therefore he is defacing a book that has already gone through major editorial overhauls – No one deserves to be discounted or be considered an abomination because of their sexual preference, least of all a good man with integrity and “God” given talent.
Hmmm well I’m definitely on Ian’s side with regards to disagreeing with the statements about homosexuality in the bible. But on the other hand I’m basically never in favor of destroying a book, or censorship in general. It’s a slippery slope that I think we should avoid. Perhaps a more productive method would be to add an insert to each bible outlining contradictory messages, other supposed “rules” that “good” Christians ignore, etc. Just a page saying hey, before you read this portion, please consider whether you eat shellfish, wear mixed fabrics, etc. And possibly some highlights about how God is love, Jesus teaches us to love everyone and let God be the judge, etc. I don’t believe God is judgmental at all but it seems like this method might actually get through to someone vs just pissing off die hard Christians.
@Mel – You don’t just tell a 70 year old man who’s spent the majority of his life dealing with bigotry to “get over it” and “take the high road.” I say let him express himself because we live in a time now where he’s allowed to.
And really…he’s not “destroying” anything. He’s not setting fire to the bibles. He’s tearing a page out. And how often do you think people staying in hotels actually take those bibles out and read them with earnest?
“How do we not know the remaining “missing” part of the passage in question says “unless they be married, then sodomize away???””
Post of the day, right there.
props to you, lola…that gave me a good laugh.
and Mel, I’d say that the gays will probably “get over it” and ignore what the Bible says about them as soon as the Christian right “gets over it” and gets their noses OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE’S BEDROOMS and stops telling NON-Christians how they’re supposed to live their lives.
The Bible has been edited, rewritten and translated so many times who really knows if what we have now is what God intended? There’s so many versions of it. According to some historians chapters might have been left out entirely! Then you have some right wingers who say the Bible says it’s okay to own slaves, to sell their daughters, promote racisim and in some cases commit murder.
The kicker is the very people who are so quick to condemn those for lack of belief in the Bible are the very ones who can’t keep half of the Commandments and are more than willing to twist the Bible around to suit their own purposes while using it against others.
I’ll say this much for Mr. McKellen, he’s not a hypocrite!
Nice try w/ the back peddling Annie but wrong again. At least based on the stories that made the cut & those not only excluded but outlawed it’s fairly obvious that the contents decided upon were by men inspired by politics & power.
As for Tee hee’s circular argument there are simply too many examples that refute such claims. Kinda reminds me of the answer creationists give when stupped by an argument; bc god tells me so. Just for starters the whole garden of eden/ paradise lost fiasco kinda shoots down the whole free thinking concept. Although I agree w/ her in one respect, it’s not black & white. The Bible is not a simple work, it is in fact the most influential “book” in western literature. As for god being bigger than logic I’ll give her that. However by god I mean whatever force is responsible for the miracle of life. Not the farce described by organized religions conveniently portrayed in our image. Really, how self righteous/absorbed/important is that?
Considering the vastness of the cosmos & the brilliance of functioning life, if god(s) really exist, I seriously doubt it/they give a rat’s ass who’s nailing who.
LOL @ the Bible being the word of God. Various Christian religions can’t even agree on which Bible is the “real” Bible. I love the King James Version for the language, but I’d never claim it was the “true word of God”.
That said, I like, admire and respect Ian McKellen, and I can understand why he wouldn’t want a book that condemns him for his sexuality on the premises, but I have a problem with defacing books of any kind. If he doesn’t like it, he can just ask room service to remove it.
Ev, you’re logic is mixed up and you’re confusing alot of different things, first you’re getting free will confused with predestination. Yes God knows everything so he knows what were going to choose but he does’nt make us choose a certain way. But anyway I could go on and on but I’m afraid it would be all falling on deaf ears. And I don’t judge Ian, not my job, I hope the best for him.
I never mentioned the ‘bible’ or any particular organized groups’ image once.
…Again, I never mentioned the word Bible. If people will use something I wasnt even talking about, to refute my argument, then so be it, but I dont think they understood the argument, then.
Why cite a source you dont believe is even true to prove a point?
Especially when the point you want to make is that the source you cite isnt true?
And I think my whole argument WAS, that it isnt black and white…
michelle, what back peddling?
“I’m well aware that when I go, the London Evening Standard billboard is going to say GANDALF DIES.” Lolz.
Bibles are just cheap paper with thick tar ink pasted on them. If it makes him happy ripping the pages out that’s fine with me. While I respect other religions (even though I don’t have my own), I don’t agree with it completely, but at least he’s not torching churches and blowing up cars.
I loved Sir Ian in Gods and Monsters, too. But I believe the 1st movie I saw him in was Richard III, possibly The Shadow. Whatever. Anything he’s in is a must see!
Revelation 22:19 (in the NIV) reads:
if anyone takes words away from this book, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city.
Either you believe in God and follow his rules, or you don’t and you don’t, taking pages out of the Holy Bible, IS defacing it and I don’t think it is right to ‘pick and choose’ which rules you can decide to follow and which ‘conveniently’ don’t apply to you.
Poor Ian, i like him too, but i would NOT want to be him on judgement day!
He’s a good guy! I was reading in the Herald a while a go a woman who was holidaying in the UK was stuggling with her pram on an escalator. She said this elderly gentleman helped her with it, and when she got to the top she discovered it was none other than Sir Ian himself.
Plus he’s friggen Gandalf!
Oh, REALLY Lissa?
You follow EVERY rule stated in the bible?
Good luck with that!
It’s not illegal to deface a Bible, so keep your panties out of bunch and your Bibles away from Sir Ian, and you’ll all be fine.
All this daft, brainless, blind faith babble is making me hungry. I think I’ll have an apple.
Lissa, does your theory apply to the Catholic church or just your average run of the mill sinner?
Whatever his reasons for tearing out that page, it is still destroying property. Could he not just asked the hotel staff to take away the book – it too would make a statement.
I love the actor, but seriously, vandalising hotel property is just too much.
Lissa: It’s a shame that real Christians — those who take the preachings of love and tolerance to heart — get lumped in with bigoted fools like you.
Lissa and Annie….I learned a long time ago that trying to argue your point on this site is frustrating because you’ll get shut down every time.
Just know this; if non-believers are right and your beliefs are wrong, you’ve got nothing at all to lose. However, if they’re wrong and you’re right, they’ll see the light someday. “EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess to God.” Romans 14:11
As a catholic I respect the bible as the word of God. I also understand that it was written by MAN and re written by man. The deacon of the church I attend told us about a book called “The Other Bible”. It has texts that have been taken out of the original bible and some texts that were never allowed in. I know the bible I read isnt written by God himself, I respect the teachings in the book and try the best I can to follow the rules. America is founded on Christian principals. If you follow the bible, thats good. If you dont, thats fine too. No one should be passing judgement.
I dont think its right that Mr. McKellan rips a page out of the bible that doesnt suit him. I dont like some of the rules in the bible either. That doesnt mean that Im going to rip out the pages that I dont like.
I’m not Christian but I’ve never thought to tear one up because I don’t agree with the Bible.
He’s an amazing actor. I loved him in Richard III. I consider myself so lucky to have seen him with Helen Mirren on Broadway in the Dance of Death 8 years ago. It was an odd play, but I really felt just how great they both are.
Well I’m not afraid to say I’ve chucked many a hotel room bible out the window or into the trash. If people don’t want their holy book to be disrespected, maybe they shouldn’t stick it where it’s not wanted. Not everyone is a Christian, and some of us are quite offended when we find bibles in our hotel rooms.
Polka – hotels do not own the bibles you find in them. They’re put there by other people. I think that’s weird (and overzealous in a ‘shoving it down your throat’ kind of way). If I found any other item that was not owned by myself or the hotel in my hotel room, I’d throw that away too.
Shannon- Okay, and who exactly is it that are leaving the Bibles in all the rooms in a hotel?
I am a little confused by your comment, so if you could please clarify it, it would be appreciated.
Here’s a thought, stop sticking unasked for bibles into hotel rooms if you don’t want them defaced.
@ Rose and Shannon: Why cant you just ignore the fact that its there? I dont get why a bible bothers you to the point of throwing it away. You say that Christians are pushing their beliefs on you, arent you doing the same thing by throwing the bible away? Meaning using unnecessary means to get your point across. Bibles are kept in a drawer not in plain sight. Why is it so hard to overlook it?
it’s silly to rip out a page. leave the Bible intact for people who choose to read it. ignore it if it does not appeal to you.
he’s been a bit of a coward. coming out at age 49. double coward for stooping to the silliness of ripping out a page.
that said, i still adore him as an actor. none of us are perfect.
Firestarter – An organization called Gideons International gives bibles to hotels and motels.
You know, when I go into a hotel room, the last thing I care about is the Bible being in a drawer that I will probably NEVER open during my entire stay.
It seems so ridiculous to get bent out of shape over a book being in a room that you are in for maximum 8hrs of a day.
If it is so offensive, give it to the bellhop or drop it off at the front desk, just as you would something that didn’t belong to you. To throw it away or deface it is immature and unnecessary, IMO.
Firestarter – The Gideons International Association is the most well-known group for distributing hotel bibles. Their website is Gideons.org. You can see that they are making pleas to the public for money to continue this. I have no qualms with their distribution of bibles to people who actually want them for their own use, that’s pretty noble. But this anonymous hotel room distribution is ridiculous. Part of their mission statement: “The Gideons International is an interdenominational association of Christian business and professional men who are members of Protestant/evangelical churches.” Notice they don’t accept women, apparently… As for where they distribute; “Scriptures are distributed one by one by members of The Gideons International to these groups: Students in the 5th grade and above, Prisoners and police, fire, medical and military personnel, Anyone else Gideons witness to individually. Scriptures are placed in certain locations, including: Hotels and motels, Hospitals, convalescent homes, medical offices and domestic violence shelters. Prisons and jails.”
Like I said before, I have no problem with them giving free bibles to people who want them. But standing outside of a middle school handing bibles to students as they try to leave? Motel rooms? Those are just not appropriate.
Cakes – I’m not throwing away the bible to make a point. I’m throwing it away because it’s personally offensive to me and I happen to use the drawer next to the bed in my hotel room, so it is in plain sight. Why can’t the Gideons association drop off bibles for the hotel to keep behind their front desk that people can use upon request? That would solve both problems – I wouldn’t feel like this religion is being pushed on me, and the bibles wouldn’t be vandalized. Is it really THAT necessary to have it IN the hotel room? Not to mention, if someone is a very devout Christian, I would expect that they probably travel with their own bible close at hand anyways and have no need to use a hotel copy.
Shannon- They are allowed to put them in the hotel rooms by the hotel mgmt. It isn’t as though they are sneaking in as “guests” and putting them in there, unbeknownst to the hotel mgmt, one Bible at a time.
If you and others have such a problem with it, then you should take it up with the various hotel/motel chains. Like I said in my other post, I am not the least bit bothered by a Bible in a drawer that I will probably never open. I am more concerned by the fact that there may be an errant pubic hair in my bed, or snot on the mirrors (a sad commentary on the cleaning staff at the Bellagio in Las Vegas’ cleaning staff) than I am with a Bible in a night stand.
Clearly, he still must have issues if he’s resorting to something that can only be described as an infantile activity.
Don’t get me wrong, that has nothing to do with his acting ability, but I would have thought that he would be beyond all the religious nonsense.
A coward?! La Chica how would you like to be considered an abomination, how would you like to be the brunt of tasteless jokes, harassed, threatened with physical harm and judged to be abnormal because you are attracted to a member of the same sex. It is clear that we are going to agree to disagree on this topic, we seem to be discussing four subjects, the Bible, censorship, homosexuality, and intolerance. Frankly I find Sir Ian’s statements heartbreaking, it is clear he missed out on so much because he was born in a period where homosexuality was not accepted. Today, my gay friends can marry, adopt and live their lives in a manner they chose to, without fear of discrimination as their rights are protected as any heterosexual individual. Sir Ian, I have adored you since I saw you in “Plenty” and the God that I love would wink..
He tears the pages out of the bible in his contempt for God’s Word. He has no respect. The good thing is, the Lord still loves him even though he’s walking contrary to truth. If he were so sure of his “gayness”, he wouldn’t even care that there was a bible close at hand.
Tee hee, if you’d read my post more carefully you’d see I agreed w/ you re the topic not being black & white. As for bringing up the Bible, that was what the thread was about. If your input is not from the Bible I’m curious where you get your info. Perhaps you’re one of those who claims gods speaks directly to them or at least you get your info from those who do. Either way, bully for you. As for organized religions that was my 2 cents, I in no way attributed that to you. Again, rereading my post might clear that up.
“Why cite a source you dont believe is even true to prove a point? Especially when the point you want to make is that the source you cite isnt true”?
In answer to your question, one must cite the source in question in order to disprove it or in my case point out what rubbish it is. How else would one argue or even discuss the validity of it if not by example. I’m afraid it is you who fails to understand this. Whether you call it an argument, debate or friendly exchange of ideas you simply can’t determine the validity of something if you’re unable to refer to the material in question. Although I disagree w/ you, I responded to your comment bc I thought it an interesting issue you raised.
Annie, by back peddling I meant claiming, he (god) was the author in one comment & then changing your position to men inspired by god in the next. There’s a significant difference. Sorry if I misunderstood.
ER, “Nothing to lose”? You seem to have overlooked another possibility. If there is a god that made us reason and all it stands to reason that this same god might punish those who neglected to use their god given ability to question & think & instead took the easy way out, (ie. blind faith.) Why give man something like the ability to think only to punish him for doing so? If you’re talking judgment day it seems to me that forsaking said gift of reason deserves punishment more.
The anti-Christian sentiment on this site is very annoying. You have people who blather on about tolerance, etc., yet they think that bashing the religion of many of their ancestors (I’ll just assume that many of the commenters are atheists/agnostics/secularists who have some Christian background) is A-OK. Honestly, you aren’t smarter just because you don’t believe in God or follow any religion. I know plenty of people with PhDs who have a strong belief in God. Your bashing isn’t cool and it certainly isn’t clever.
The Bible in the drawer was and is meant to help people in distress, since many people would go to hotel/motel rooms to commit suicide. So, if someone were to find something of comfort in the book and that stopped them from killing themselves, what’s the problem? The Old Testament is respected, but the Christian religion looks to the New Testament and Christ’s life and teachings as the basis for its rules. The New Testament isn’t concerned with killing adulterers or gays or with wearing a certain type of cotton. It is concerned with convincing us to use our free will to make good and kind choices towards others and for ourselves.
Go Sir Ian! Just for fun (and to plant the seed of doubt) I regularly write a prologue in hotel bibles and even highlight and reference the parts I find particularly stupid and offensive. Some of it’s beautiful and some of it’s boring and some of it’s just crap written by some dude a zillion years ago from a backwards, bigoted, sexist culture. Oh, and some of it is just straight up psychedelic. There must be some mushrooms growing on Crete!
Oh for the love of God. The bible is so full of hate and spite that it almost ridiculous. The old testament (where one finds Leviticus) is of an angry, vengeful and jealous God. The New Testament (The one where Jesus shows up) is about love and mercy. If you are a Christian, the new testament is your book.
The parts about homosexuality were written at a time when the men were prone to abusing young boys and it was a way to stop such practices by using the word of God as an admonishment.
The bible, torah and koran are filled with stories to scare and control men. God is suppose to be about love. period, end of story.
If God created all, then he created those who are straight and those who are not. and loves them both. Love is a pretty great thing no matter what form it comes in.
Other than that, I love me some Ian. And I like Frodo even more for holding his hand while he got his elvish tattoo
Crete? Crete is off the coast of Greece. What does that have to do with the Bible? Most of it takes place in the (current) Israel, Egypt area.
To all the people here who think the Bible is such crap why is it offensive? If its crap it shouldn’t be offensive. Why is it so impossible to just ignore it and believe what you believe, and leave the Christians alone? There’s a whole lot of religious tolerance and respect going on in this thread (read with a lot of sarcasm). You don’t want Christian/Jewish (Leviticus is part of the Torah as well) beliefs in your face, fine. I personally don’t see how a book in a hotel is. they aren’t forcing you to read it, they aren’t teaching to you in school.
Great, the three topics that no one will ever agree upon in one article: sex, religion, and politics. How great for sales of Detail Magazine.
I fail to understand why posters here would justify destruction based upon an actor’s choice? This thread, which could easily focus on Sir Ian’s accomplishments, has perezzed itself into “my view or the highway” posts.
I know an actor is trained in affecting mannerisms and speech to titillate… But, to use an actor as your poster-child. My, what IS society coming to?
Congratulations, Sir Ian, on stirring egomanical “discussions” over your passive-aggressive action of page tearing! You remain a media darling and a fine actor, who’s true nature is still hidden.
I’m sure God loves Ian just like he is.
He is a precious gift of a man who has enriched the lives of millions through his wit, wisdom and craft.
Gay people should be allowed to marry. It’s discrimination, no matter how you spin it. There’s a little clause in the Bill of Rights, (granted he’s a Brit) that secures the “pursuit of happiness”. What could be a more basic pursuit of happiness than marrying the one you love? I don’t know why this issue hasn’t been to the Supreme Court yet.
What does the bible have to do with Greece? Are you serious? Yikes, that’s just depressing.
And by the way, Christians believe that those who don’t agree with their superstitions are immoral heathens destined to be punished forever in hell. Goofy stuff, huh?
And if that wasn’t bad enough, they get a pass being aggressive about their mythology to the point of ridiculousness. (I love it when they knock on my door to win my soul with their silly stories. Really. I do)
Needless to say, I’m not gonna apologize for wanting to counter that b.s. at every turn, believe me.
So yes, I support Sir Ian and even though I’m straight, I understand his anger.
I know you have to cite a source to talk about it, know what it says etc.
That is obvious.
But I saw in your post two lines of reasoning, – ie that you believe the bible is rubbish; but then that you referred to the garden of eden to possibly support the notion that man does not have free will.
It was unclear which side you were on if you were on one. And also unclear if you are on none. 🙂 Were you supporting free thinking or not, and what did you support it with/without because if the Bible is rubbish then you cant use it to support anything– not even free thinking.
That is just how your post read to me; I am here explaining why I responded as I did.
I dont need or want an answer and am not concerned with your business or opinion, neither to disprove it. I just noticed that single possible point in your reasoning; and I wanted to clarify my own position.
^I meant not even to *refute free thinking. 🙂
There’s a great book called “The Year of Living Biblically” by AJ Jacobs where the author spent a year trying to follow every single rule in the bible. The book discusses how basically nobody can follow EVERYTHING in the bible, because (a) some of the rules are conflicting, and (b) so many of the rules are completely wacked out and ridiculous. So basically, everybody is making their own selection as to what is important to them. Some people think that the anti-homosexual sentiments in Leviticus 18:22 are God’s word and should therefore be followed because it is in the bible. And everyone is entitled to their opinion. But if that is the case and their justification,(that because it’s there it must be followed) then I bloody well hope that they also wear fringes on all their clothing, don’t eat shell-fish, don’t sit on the same seat that has been used by a menstruating woman, blow a horn at the start of every new moon, slaughter an animal periodically to show how much they love God and keep their house free of mildew. Because ALL THOSE THINGS are in the bible too!
Also, I LOVE Sir Gandalf!
to Rosalee #72:
anyone who is a member of a minority group, including women, knows what it’s like to be discriminated against. Sir Ian is not unique in this. indeed, he has the advantage of a fat bank balance that allows him to attract all kinds of young lovers. yeah, the old dude has really suffered.
and i still think it’s silly for a grown man to get so petty that he would deface a book that has given genuine comfort to many.
that said, i will always watch his movies bec he is brilliant.
la Chica, I am a member of a minority group, and I have faced discrimination regarding my partner of choice and considering my age and the history I have witnessed, I do not consider it petty to removing a hateful comment in a book that would label a person an “abomination”. As you say a book that has provided “genuine comfort” could it not be more obvious that it provides comfort to some, not all. Yes, he has suffered, it is clear you can not possibly understand the depth of his suffering.
Well,… Well said!
To think how angry I was when a priest told me to shut up and stop being an idiot for merely bringing up, carefully and politely, the possibility that people of other religions might also be right (alongside Christians), worshipping the same being in a different form. Yeah, the horrible Atheist was trying to have a sensible discussion and only received insults.
Of course, I can happily attest that doesn’t apply to all Christians, but they exist and tend to be most vocal. If I was so irritated by that particular “discussion”, how does a 70-year old man, who has been discriminated against for so long feel? Bibles in hotels are a form of proselytising, which is unlikely to make someone like him particularly happy. In addition, if he doesn’t believe in god, you can hardly blame him for cherry-picking, choosing to live by the rules he likes and discarding the others.
Anyone for some bunny stew or a shrimp cocktail? Mixed fibre clothing and tattoos optional.
Meimei, sign me up, I’ll bring the red wine and terrible jokes. Kisses and hugs for the levity.
Just ONE QUESTION…… if it did not bug him, why does he go around tearing pages out????
Makes you think a little deeper, does it not????
You would think if it was so irrelevant, he would just leave the bibles alone……. ????
@Think again:
Bug him in what way?
Those passages have been used to condemn gays, to turn people against them, to make them second-class citizens. Those same passages have most likely inspired some of the people who have seen fit to kill or assault people just for being gay.
To me, just knowing those “ruminating bunny” rules is enough, but I’ve never been persecuted. Had I been… Removing some pages doesn’t seem too extreme.
Apparently the bible paper works well if you run out of rolling papers.
Lissa: If you’re going to follow the Bible explicitly, you’d better start building some bonfires, because Exodus 22:18 (KJV) says: “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”. I believe the Inquisition may have used this chapter and verse to justify torching quite a number of “witches”. They were a little more humane in Salem, Mass; they just dangled them from the end of a rope.
I have to agree with Snappyfish. The God of the Old Testament comes off as more of a mean, spiteful, vengeful spoilsport than anything else.
okay, cool glad to know we can deface and remove anything anywhere that we disagree with or find offensive.
watch out, public library! the liberals are coming…
cc:
Isn’t that what the conservatives have always done? And no, I certainly wouldn’t recommend this to anyone, but I can definitely understand why he does it.
In addition: are these Bibles anyone’s property? If I understood it correctly, the organisation gives them away, but not to the hotel, so they just lie there. Is it wrong to take one to read at home? Or, talking about destroying stuff: is it wrong to tear apart a paper which is blown around by the wind (if no one’s running after it trying to catch it)? Books in the library ARE someone’s property.
Yes, CC I’m going to jump into the car and head down to the library and deface books. Then I’m going to go drink excessive amounts of espresso take stop signs on a roll..I’m such a big bad Liberal. by the way LOL I actually am a card carrying member of the Liberal Party of Canada. LIBERALS ROCK
cc: Liberals are censor-mad and conservatives are not? What planet are you from?
Celebrities can tear pages out of Bibles and urinate on statues of Jesus (Larry David in his show) and they are applauded as being brave.
The funny part is that they never do these types of disrespectful things to The Koran, etc, and I think we all know why.
OK, let’s just clear this out. Bible disputers are not, by default, Koran supporters. This idea out there, perpetuated by Limbaugh et al, is just plain ridiculous. I see trolls on lefty sites trying to pull this b.s. all the time, as if they’ve been instructed to do so. The bible is not the opposite of the koran. Islam is not the opposite of christianity. In fact, they have much in common. So please, if you want to sound half way intelligent, don’t repeat this drivel. It is based on nothing. The koran is not part of American culture so it’s not in every hotel room like the bible is. That is why you don’t hear about people from our culture, which is judeo/christian, going on about it. Duh. Think people. Think.
“The funny part is that they never do these types of disrespectful things to The Koran, etc, and I think we all know why.”
I have a pretty good idea, too. These celebrities have grown up in a society where the Bible is used as a moral guideline. The Koran hasn’t been used to make up any rules in their surroundings. Now, if they lived in a culture where life was based on what the Koran says, they might have the urge to target it instead of the Bible.
Edit: So, I agree with Trillion – I’m a slow writer.
Whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong, I really don’t understand the circus that’s made of it. If you’re gay, then be gay. Why parade it and constantly talk about it; write books about it; make television shows about it; dedicate channels to it? Makes no sense to me. I think it’s just as ridiculous to parade heterosexuality around like it’s some sort of progress. It’s sex, people. Been around for ages. It happens. Drop it. Let it go. Can we move on now?
irishserra – i think the “parade” about homosexuality is because of all the groups that condemn it, and gay people, and talk about how they are contaminating society,and going to hell and deny them basic human rights. i think the gay culture would love to “let it go and move on” but the far right politicians & the bible thumpers won’t let them get on with their lives.
In addition, gay sex is still sex, perhaps even more intriguing than straight because it has been a taboo for so long in the West. And everyone knows sex sells. Who read the articles about Chris Martin and Josh Duhamel? Scandalous straight sex. You’d also read about the two having scandalous gay sex. It’s human nature. 🙂
I don’t understand a lot of you on this site. I really don’t understand why there has to be a good guy and a bad guy. All of us are the same. We all have our own convictions and beliefs and the nature of the beast in all of us is to convince everyone around us that we are the “right” ones. I don’t care what any of you say, we’re all doing it. Whether you’re trying to say that you believe in God and that Homosexuals are sinners, or whether you’re trying to convince the world that God is a myth and a ridiculous fairy tale, you’re still pushing your agenda. And no amount of argument can prove otherwise. I don’t understand why we can’t just respect each other even if we have differences? I have religious friends and I have gay friends and I have atheist friends. And they all make a good point. And they all make mistakes. And they’re all trying their best. Tolerance applies to everyone. Nobody is “stupid” or “ignorant” for believing what they believe. To say so is to contradict yourself and your own nature.
I want to make it clear that as a human being, I’m just as guilty of being judgmental as any of you. It’s very easy to judge somebody when you have no affiliation with them. I truly believe that those of us who are so openly against gay people might change their tune, or at least be a little more respectful of them, if they were to befriend one. And I think that if liberal people had a chance to be close friends with somebody who takes the christian teachings to heart, they would see that they aren’t any more monstrous than anyone else. I know many, many people who are religious and feel a lot of love for Homosexual people. Bigotry exists on both sides. It’s only fear. Fear of being wrong. M’kay. I’m done.
Bek, I am a Liberal and a Christian. We can be both, and I adore my atheist brothers and sisters. They question and I answer and I question and they answer it makes for an entertaining Saturday evening. Being gay is not a disease, affliction or wrong..being gay is just another way of expressing love. I’d rather be gay, open and happy then live in pain and fear. As I said earlier, I am of a certain age and from a certain generation that had to fight for every inch of equality. We have not arrived yet, but with each open heart we gain more acceptance. I loved the debate, it makes life more interesting.
Educated people don’t bother themselves with the old book but are reading books on physics.
Bek, I’ll have to disagree. Lots and lots beliefs are stupid. (e.g. virgins getting pregnant, people rising from the dead, a “holy” book inspired by an imaginary being, the notion of a benevolent god, etc. etc.)
I just feel that religion gets treated with kid gloves and this is not only offensive, it is dangerous. Reason and critical thinking are so important, and these things are absolutely devalued by religion.
I dream of a world where we all handle life’s issues with logic, intelligence, reason and fairness instead of fairy tales for nomadic jews from the ancient past.
Oh, Twinkletoes: Your comment reminds me of this great (paraphrased) quote by one of my heroes, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., “You will find the smartest students on any college campus in the physics and the music departments and the stupidest in the communications and elementary ed. departments”.
Bek: Also, Jesus Christ was a mega liberal. Can you imagine if he returned to the US today? A pacifist, anti-materialist who advocated forgiving ones enemies and turning the other cheek. Many of the parables address the evils of seeking to be rich. He was constantly advocating for the poor, the sick, and the disenfranchised. The transgression of wealth building and the advocacy of love were his hottest topics. IMO, he embodied the most cliche and extreme values of the left, values that are smirked at and mocked by conservatives. The irony of the right claiming Christ will always be a sad mystery to me.
Trillion, Ha. Old Jews whom the Christians of today totally despise. Hate the Jews behind “Paranormal Activity” if you will. There’s your modern day Gyspy right there. Scam artists extraordinairre!
Tee hee, again I think you fail to understand how discussion & reasoning actually work. The point of referring to the garden of eden was to exemplify your notion of free will as being absurd in light of biblical teachings, at least based on your statements. I never claimed the Bible was rubbish. In fact, I acknowleged it as being the most influential literary work of the western world. Rather, I was referring to the concept of original sin & more specifically, taking the “good book” literally as being the word of god to be rubbish. Perhaps I too have been unclear. Therefore, I’d like to clarify my point. That being any absolute proclamations re god, either biblical or otherwise based on faith & espoused to others, (such as your input) are in my humble opinion absolute ignorant drivel.
Moreover, it’s apparent your concept of things not being black & white is quite limited as well. Clearly you view this as an issue of being on one side or the other. It is possible to respect a book on a historial &/or literary level & still believe those who cling to it’s every literal word despite the many interpretations are deluded sheep.
Finally, your claims regarding how one argues their position by not using the source in question is significantly flawed. May be it’s bc like you stated, you based it on 2 lines rather than the opinion as a whole. Either way it’s obvious you’re confused considering your insistence that you don’t feel the need to disprove my position but then continue in the attempt to do so by taking what I’ve said only in part, thereby changing the meaning entirely. So to lay it out for you, I do believe in free will. Just as I believe you are free to disagree w/ me, & I am free to respond.
God Bless 🙂
Bek, I understand your sentiment, but the fact of the matter is that not all religions are equal. Christianity has the power in America’s structure, just as men (as opposed to women), white people (as opposed to people of color), heterosexuals (as opposed to homosexuals) have power. They are the dominant culture and are therefore privileged. They oppress other religions (or the lack thereof). The only way that we can get to tolerance is the day that the Christians do not have the most resources to be louder than everyone else. That is not going to happen anytime soon, and it’s not going to happen without people asking tough questions. Look at how freaked out some people are over this “blasphemy” of Sir Ian. They’re treating the bible like it’s an American flag. There’s something very wrong with that.
He talks about free speech and no censorship and equal rights, yet he rips the page out of a Bible. Isn’t that supressing free speech and isn’t that censorship?
Does he realize it just makes him look like a very scared hypocrite? Obviously, he knows what he is doing is wrong in God’s eyes, and it bothers him. If it didn’t bother him deep down, he wouldn’t rip the pages out.
It’s an expression of rebelling against an illogical, unfair, oppressive statement more than anything else. I think this shows that what bothers him “deep down” is the bigotry, not, as you assert, that it’s a “sin”. He’s too enlightened for that.
to Rosalee # 86:
i can empathize with someone’s distress and still disapprove of their silly behavior. yes Sir Ian has suffered and i can feel his pain. that does NOT automatically mean that i will endorse every silly pointless thing he does.
tearing out pages of the Bible is a stupid method of standing up for gay rights. i can think of a whole slew of other truly meaningful things he could have done with some of the big bucks he’s been earning, that would genuinely promote change.
and yes the Bible provides comfort for “some”. how could it possibly provide comfort for everyone when the whole world isn’t Christian? what exactly is your point? people value the books of their own faith. if he had torn out pages of the Bhagavad Gita I would have said the same thing!
So conflicted with all of this. On one hand, I’m queer. On the other hand, I’m anti-censorship. Ultimately, the deciding factor for me is that Sir Ian McKellen is in my top five of people I think are awesome. Seriously, I’d love to eat dinner with him and just tell him how great I think he is. So although I’m anti-censorship, I fall on the side of tearing the pages out.
On another note, I’d really appreciate if people stopped tolerating me. I think it’s so douchey. You tolerate bad weather or food you don’t like. How dare you “tolerate” me? I’m a person. Love me or hate me, but don’t act like you have some divine right to say, “what you’re doing is wrong, but I’ll rise above that and be the bigger person.”
Also, for those of you talking about how you follow all or none of the Bible…Doesn’t it say a whole hell of a lot about gossip and judgment in the Bible? Which, if you’re frequenting a site called Celebitchy, you might be just a little guilty of. So shame shame on you. Don’t worry, I’ll tolerate your failings.
I’m just happy that I didn’t resort to any judgements about you, or your entire thinking capacity, based on my own interpretation a few points of your (yes unclear) posts.
I’m glad I’ve reached the point where I dont need to do that to others; right or wrong, agree or disagree, clear/uncler black white etc etc.
And I didn’t attempt to disprove, (it was unclear where you even stood, and it doesn’t even matter to me) I only questioned the apparent reasoning, which, given my interpretation of the post, was mixed up. I didn’t take your post in whole, like I said- and because it is of no interest. And even when I do it still is entirely non conclusive. I was only fascinated by that one potential point of reasoning- whilst ANY can be inferred form the post. So you are not telling me anything new. And I am not saying anythign new, either, but am repeating myself.
man, all of this only matters if you believe in the particular god the bible expounds, in this case the christian god. he wouldn’t tear that section out of the koran, because the god of the koran means nothing to him, is not a living god to him, so the book about him and his teachings means nothing. just like this debate over whether the bible is the divinly inspired word of god dictated to a select few or an ancient and altered text that has been changed and commiserated on over time. the christian god is not a living god to me so the bible is as meaningless as the koran. but to a believer with honest faith that the god they believe in is a living breathing god, the bible is treasured scripture. yeah all of us. can we please have a little tolerance people?
i never chose a side with my comment, i am simply summing up what kind of behavior is glorified to what kinds of people.
i myself am a liberal and i am damned sorry at the amount of intolerance, censorship and judgment shown by those who claim to prioritize freedom.
wake up, kids. if you hate conservatives because they don’t like people who aren’t just like them, what does that make you?
Good point cc.
The same behavior, but with a different opinion. But the behavior will never lead to respect of either toward the other. And the (intolerant, judgemental) behavior has nothign to do with the opinion, actually– its just plain immaturity/lack of respect in the person holding it showing through.
I am atheist but what he does is the same as what homophobic people do. I know I know am not making any sense but when you think about it, it is all irrational immature behavior. Hope he feels better about his miserable life after tearing out those pages.
#120-122 Wrong. These ideas are not reverse images of each other, although I’m sure it’s convenient for you to think so. Are those who fight bigotry the mirror of bigots? Give this some thought.
Brilliant retort Tee hee, if not a bit sad. Considering the forum, we’ve only our words to express ourselves & hence form our opinions. Take responsibility for yours rather than cowering behind pseudo pleasantries & false indignation. At least leave out the hypocrisy. Sniveling that you’ve been judged after participating on a blog & in the same breath doing the same indicates you’re about as mature as your moniker. Calling one’s post unclear or mixed up are indeed examples of opinions, in other words “judgments”. There can’t be any real exchange of ideas or information w/o considering what’s said & forming an opinion. As it follows what one says is a reflection of that person. Therefore, to judge one’s words is to judge that person, it’s the nature of dialogue. In the very least, what we say is a product of who we are. Perhaps that’s too much for you. Regardless let’s be clear, I did not resort to name calling or the like. I merely pointed out your faulty thinking. Rather than attempt to do the same, you’ve chosen to cry foul. A convenient out when you’ve nothing of real merit to say. Well, at least you’re happy. So I suppose it’s really true, ignorance is bliss.
No matter how neutral you talk, some people just want to fight.
Trillion, all I can see is that you are still trying to convince everybody around you that they’re wrong and you’re right. How can you know for sure? Why does it matter to you? Do you really believe that all the people in the world who have christian sentiments are blind, stupid and ignorant? That you and your friends are the only ones who are able to sift through the mire with any kind of intellect? The thing is, I used to think just like this. And it’s still a dangerous way of thinking. Just as close-minded as people who oppress others for their sexuality or their race. The truth is, if you met me or I met you, I’m sure we’d be fast friends. And I’m not anti-liberal. The opposite, in fact. I’m sure if you looked hard enough you’d be able to find some christians who actually believe in love and peace and all the things that you agree with. Anyway. I’m not attacking you. Only trying to have a good conversation.
Dear Shannon: you are right about Christianity being the dominant religious force in our country. As I’m sure I don’t have to explain to you, the majority rules here. It’s how we vote and make decisions. Minorities are going to have less of a chance that things swing their way so long as we keep our democratic republic. That being said, it doesn’t mean that minorities are wrong and majorities are right. Both sides have made some bad decisions. What I don’t understand is how you believe only one side is capable of oppressing the other. If a group of gay people send anthrax-laced envelopes to a religious temple, are they justified? Is that ok because they’re “right?” I don’t know. Bad behavior is just bad behavior, pure and simple. You will find kind, good people on both sides. And you will find nasty, vengeful people on both sides. I’m just as sad to learn that a religious person is beating someone up in a bar as a result of religious differences as I am to learn that a person from a minority is setting fire to somebody else’s home. Catch my drift? Just because somebody is part of a majority OR minority doesn’t mean they’re necessarily right or wrong. Until we’re no longer a democratic republic, majority has the say. And if a religion or lack thereof is used as a crutch to justify the hurting of someone else, then I’d say that person is not following their own religion or any standard of ethical behavior. Excluding some of the different types of violent cults, most religions teach peace. It’s the people that don’t keep it. Christ loved everybody, though he didn’t always agree with them. People are less likely to do so.
I know I’ve really talked too much, but I’m sorry if I’ve offended people on this site. I’ve merely tried to present an opinion that gives the benefit of the doubt to all people. After all, I think everybody deserves that. I sincerely hope that you all have a good day! It would be awesome if, in an ideal world, we could all be in the same bar toasting each other. That’s my agenda! Have a good one.
Tee hee? Try Boo hoo.
Why you’re no fun at all. I thought amidst the celebrity fluff this thread was actually interesting. What’s more, I was intrigued by your post & only wanted to respond in kind. Far from a fight, I thought this was a somewhat intellectual exchange of sorts among consenting adults. Apparently I was wrong.
He’s got a bulbous nose, deperately needs Botox & oh yeah, god is great!
How’s that?
On a serious note I meant no harm. I thought we were having fun debating an engaging topic, sorry.
Ripping out the page out of the Bible obviously shows conviction on Ian’s part. Hey, Ian, here’s another scripture you might want to rip out this page out of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6:18, “Flee fornication (which is sex before marriage). Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.” (which Christians are guilty of, too) And for Christians who “finger-point” at “abominations” listen to this: nowhere in the 10 commandments does it mention homosexuality “thou shall not be a homosexual or child molestor” now does it? But, there are 3 commandments that regard idolatry, not to have a graven image to bow to it or take the place of God. The Christians worship the image of the beast in this nation the Christians guilty of idolatry that God calls an “abomination” (Galatians 5:19-21; Revelations 21:27). But, Christians don’t tear out pages out of the Bible they just “scratch out” the truth and what brings conviction (which is anti-Christ by the way). You don’t know what God is talking about in His Word.
Michellle how ironic that you suggest I am the one who doesn’t know how to debate or discuss intellectually, when all you do is suggest that the person with whom you believe you are ‘debating is ‘not an intellectual, consenting adult’, and ‘in blissful ignorance’, and are more interested in telling them they ‘fail to understand how reasoning works’ rather than actually debate a topic. I DONT thnk the goal of debating is to arrive at a conclusion of the other person being an idiot.
I suppose if the other says “Youre right, I’m unintelligent” then they REALLY know how to debate.
Thus it appears your goal in ‘debating’ is not an exchange of ideas but a drive to label others flawed, wrong, ignorant, ‘sad’, childlike, and incapable first, and yourelf correct and the only intelligent and adult one- before simply discussing a topic, or rather THAN discussing a topic. Then you pretend to mourn your self-created “intellectual” isolation.
At the least, you need to alter your style of debating if you expect anyone to have a remote interest of talking with you.
Fitting also you suggest I lay off the hypocrisy and ‘pseudo pleasantries’ when you write after your post “God Bless :)” and “at least your happy”. I kept a neutral tone without.
Given the above, it appears you should listen to your own post and learn the basic pointers of a discussion with another which doesnt include such an underhandied and caustic demeanor. If you can’t go a single post without some sort of suggested accusation that another person is an idiot, and the need to make personal judgements such that you can feel you are the only intelligent person again, then you are correct that an adult exchange is not possible- all opinions, reasoning, and topics aside.
I alreasy stated why I posted what I did, but you also don’t seem to read or at least take into consideration what has been said by the other person. You were too quick to assume I was behaving like you, and making a personal judgement of you when I stated your post was unclear. Not you, your post.
So while your interest is still to shut out the other person with whom you supposedly want to engage and discuss, and then ‘back pedal’ and say it is only fun and you ‘never resorted to name calling and such’ (while you suggest in the same post that I am ignorant and that it is ‘too much’ for me to talk to you) and thus YOU are failing to take responsibility for how YOU post – then no I am not going to “have fun” and continue to discuss with you. {Interesting also you would then instruct ME to take responsibility for how I post, when I repeated myself and never backed down from anything I said.} Maybe you think trying to provoke others is a way to have fun but I don’t.
I just feel you ought to have this brought to your attention, because it is glaringly obvious, probably to everyone but yourself.
Again all views topics or reasoning aside; it could have been debated intelligently, yes, but not given how you think one should debate, and not given your goal for having a debate. And not while all you can see in another is yourself. It’s not going to happen; and I am finished here.
Well: “The Bible in the drawer was and is meant to help people in distress, since many people would go to hotel/motel rooms to commit suicide. So, if someone were to find something of comfort in the book and that stopped them from killing themselves, what’s the problem?”
The problem is that the distress was probably caused by jugmental religious nuts in the first place (“ie. “God hates *whatever*”). The world would be a better place without some people shoving their religious BS down other people’s throats.
Ha ha ha. This thread delivers.
Ah so you do have a spine Tee hee, wonderful! I’d love to discuss it. I only attempted to drop things in my last response bc what sounded like a defeatist attitude on your part. Hardly back peddling, more like not hitting someone when they’re down, or at least appear to be.
The “god bless” comment was sarcasm, I thought that was rather obvious. God forbide humor be injected into this, again a joke, though I’d bet you’re not laughing. Granted not much of a joke. In any case, as I said my interest was an actual discussion. I’m sure I never called you an idiot. Rather, I questioned your ability to discuss this based entirely on what you’ve said, which is all I have to go on where you’re concerned. If you feel you came across as idiotic perhaps that’s bc you’ve chosen to play the victim & insist you were being attacked rather than actually address the issue.
As for your claim that I fancy myself the only intelligent person, that could not be further from the truth & it is completely unsubstantiated. I never said anything of the kind and to infer such is completely baseless. Had I felt I had all the answers I never would have engaged in this in the first place. What’s more, your supposing, “if the other says “Youre right, I’m unintelligent” then they REALLY know how to debate” really smacks of paranoia. It seems you’ve confused your opinion w/ mine. The irony being, had you stopped whining long enough to have a real discussion, you’d actually know where I stood. Apparently you’re just more comfortable making unfounded accusations.
Perhaps you should use your energy to support or at least explain your initial claims. You put out a definitive statement about god on a blog. Are you actually bewildered as to why that would prompt some response? Like I said I was was initially intrigued by your statements. To start out so strong only to crumble so quickly when challenged was a real disapointment. Clearly I was wrong to assume a few sarcastic jabs, which I can assure you were said in good fun, would elicit a thoughtful & spirited response. I was hoping you’d defend your position or at least elaborate. Had I truely considered your degree of sensitivity I wouldn’t have bothered. I’m sorry for you that you find my manner both caustic & underhanded. I don’t agree & that was not my intention but you’re entittled to your opinion & I’ll definitely keep that in mind for future reference.
Regarding your take that I should alter my style of debating if I expect anyone to have a remote interest in talking with me, I completely disagree. Based on my experience there are a great many people unlike yourself, who not only take delight in a provocative & healthy exchange but are adept at doing so. Evidently you’ve appointed yourself spokesperson on behalf of others. Taking it upon yourself to speak for other people, not a good idea. At best you seem better suited to represent the thin skinned variety & even then you don’t seem to be doing them any favors. Although your bit about my pretending to mourn my self-created “intellectual” isolation was quite good. A huge & completely unfounded leap but entertaining nonetheless. May be you’re not so tragic after all.
At any rate, ranting on about others attempting to shut you out is akin to taking your toys & going home bc you don’t get your way. If you’re so sure you know what constitutes a proper debate, you’d do better to show by example. The incessant crying hardly proves your point & the wounded animal bit, well that doesn’t look good on anyone.
The Bible is a testament to God’s immense love; it’s not a rulebook.
Yeesh, people. It’s not a very difficult concept to grasp.
WOW. What a debate. I am a Christian and love the Bible the more and more I read it,however everyone sins whether it’s one thing or another. A sin is a sin. If one is truely a Christian one knows that what was written in the OT a lot is overwritten by the NT. I also don’t understand why comndeming homosexuality are the Christian’s fault when Jews and Muslims belive the same thing.As an individual I was taught to hate the sin and love the sinner. Also if you believe that Jesus died to forgive all sins, doesn’t that include homosexuality amongst other things. It is not our place to tell them they are going to hell. That is ridiculous.Christians who are overbearing need to pray in their closet as Jesus said and mind your own business. I’m done….happy debating
Good for him, he is standing up for what he believes in despite public persecution and modern religious values and giving a face to the struggles of a long-tortured community of fellow human beings who aren’t treated as such. Gee you know what this is starting to sound familiar… Jesus anyone? Christians are so easy to forget that Jesus was not at all accepted in his time, that his ideas and methods were very controversial, and that people did not really get what he was trying to say until long after he was gone. Jesus would be right along side Ian, and he would never agree with people looking down on homosexuality. This is the guy who made an effort to be amongst the least liked and most marginalized members of his society at the time i.e., prostitutes, lepers. Do some historical research for crying out loud.
Wow interesting thread. Quite a lot of insightful points were made but others, sadly, while they initially had something of merit to say, devolved into passive-aggressive “well I’m right and you’re wrong rhetoric.”
I agree with Bek wholeheartedly and while I am not above being petty or judgmental, I hope someday to fully embrace this simple and beautiful philosophy, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!”
This thread has unnecessary drama of biblical porportions all over it. Do any of you REALLY think Sir Ian gives a damn if you’re for or against him? He’s embracing his elitism now that his years of service has gained said status.
Unlike most of us, who have to answer to silly things like laws and codes of conduct, he can do whatever he wants. He’s not peon enough to even debate his action…he allows his salivating followers to do it for him. /facepalm
He is awesome!
He sounds so earnest and down to earth.
I want a hug!
I couldnt possibly be playing victim to avoid an argument. I stated my position, and that is that.
I asked a question, and thats when everything went downhill.
This has just been a fruitless and unwise attempt on my part, to state that I feel opinions can and should be stated, without drawing conclusions about the stater-
whether those conclusions about the other are thinly masked suggestions or outright labels.
I think this case goes a long way in proving my position, and has reinforced me in this belief.
Yes I am a rare ‘animal’; but I’m not ‘crying’ because I can’t reason, prove my points, or because I am spineless etc;
I just got sidetracked by the matter of what I consider to be the best debating behavior.
It is my fault for expect another to uphold ideals that I myself believe in.
And that is the subject of this post, so freakin, freakin ironic: to each his own, like it or not.
Ah life! Ah universe!! LOL How you give me what I want each and every time! Thanks for the lesson. And I’ll be back for more of these.
“If we have free will, then it must be respected”
is the lesson.
It’s not like the Bible is God’s word or anything. It’s not like the words in that book were told directly to Jesus and then written down or anything like that. Dispite all the films Ian is in that I enjoy, I have absolutly and completely lost respect for him if all this is true. So yeah, keep on doing what you’re doing, see where it takes you.
Elyna (November 15), are you serious?.. That honestly has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.
I am so glad that I came across Remote Starters for Cars! It only took me about four working hours to install mine and I’m not even an auto mechanic!! The remote that I have with my model is pretty cool lookin too. Despite the fact that I’m thinking about bumping up to a security alarm here soon with the 2 way remote, whatcha think?
I cannot believe some of the comments here. People act like Sir Ian’s being nothing but spiteful against people who disagree with him…someone even said he’s showing “elitism”.
Folks, it’s obviously not about opinions. Sir Ian has probably been treated horribly by Christians all his life, in “the name of God”….that goes way beyond opinion and simple disagreement. He was persecuted, people….he faced actual persecution, probably more that any of the Christians posting here have faced.
I can’t get over how many Christians whine and scream about how they’re ohhh so persecuted. They don’t know what persecution is :(. I was raised Baptist and this kind of mentality was drilled into me growing up. Now it just makes me sick. Grow up, people! You are not the minority here!