I’m enjoying the layers within certain stories told by the Duke and Duchess of Sussex on Netflix’s Harry & Meghan. In one part, Meghan describes how ignorant she was of British royal “protocol” and how she was so American in her way of thinking, to the point where those salty British tightasses were probably aghast. At the surface layer, she is simply telling the truth from her perspective, she didn’t know that she wasn’t supposed to hug people or put on shoes when William and Kate came over for dinner. On another layer, she’s actually telling us why she annoyed them right away – she was so natural, so unencumbered by protocol, so warm, so undeferential, so demonstrative, so normal. Of course they hated her from day 1.
Meghan Markle says she learned the realities of royal life from Kate Middleton and Prince William.
“When Will and Kate came over and I had met her for the first time, they came over for dinner,” Meghan said in Harry & Meghan. “I remember I was in ripped jeans and barefoot.”
“Like I was a hugger, always been a hugger,” she added. “I didn’t realize that that is really jarring for a lot of Brits.”
“I guess I’d start to understand very quickly that the formality on the outside, carried through on the inside,” she continued about the multiple etiquette rules followed by the royal family, which she mistakenly believed were only observed in public.
“There is a forward-facing way of being and then you close the door and you relax now,” she added about how she expected the etiquette to be left at the door once the work day had finished. “But that formality carries over on both sides. And that was surprising to me.”
“It’s so funny if I look back at it now because now I know so much,” she continued about her inside knowledge of royal life. “And I’m so glad I didn’t then because I could just authentically be myself without so much preparedness.”
It’s sort of like “when keeping it real goes wrong” though – yes, she was authentically herself, but she’s got to admit that she probably annoyed a lot of royal-ecosystem people by being so “authentic.” That was probably a huge issue, a thread connecting so many of the larger issues between the Sussexes, the press and the Windsors – she lacked deference to their tightass, stage-managed, emotionally constipated way of living. Meghan thought she could breeze in and there would be some inherent egalitarianism in private (at the very least). This is at the heart of so many “how dare she?” stories. She dared because she didn’t know any better, because their tightass hierarchy cannot be navigated by “outsiders.”
Also: imagine the look on Wiglet’s face when a barefoot peasant like Meghan tried to hug her. LMAO.
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- LONDON, ENGLAND – FEBRUARY 28: Prince Harry, Meghan Markle, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge and Prince William, Duke of Cambridge attend the first annual Royal Foundation Forum held at Aviva on February 28, 2018 in London, England. Under the theme ‘Making a Difference Together’, the event will showcase the programmes run or initiated by The Royal Foundation.
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- LONDON, ENGLAND – FEBRUARY 28: Meghan Markle and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge attend the first annual Royal Foundation Forum held at Aviva on February 28, 2018 in London, England. Under the theme ‘Making a Difference Together’, the event will showcase the programmes run or initiated by The Royal Foundation.
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- Britain’s Prince Harry, his wife Meghan, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge arrive at Westminster Abbey for a service to mark the centenary of the Royal Air Force (RAF), in central London, Britain July 10, 2018.
Except Kate forgets she too was a “peasant” not too long ago. It’s almost the classic tale of the new money being even more rigid and snotty than those born with it.
I 100% think this is what’s going on with Kate. Also, she married for that status and hierarchy so I am not surprised that she wants it enforced at all times.
Kate knew on sight she was lacking in comparison to Meghan on many angles and so she played the uppity snob because it was her only move.
I remember early in Kate’s marriage there were whispers of how it was reiterated that Eugenie and Bea had to curtsey to her under certain circumstances, depending on who else was there. I mean- you don’t put in that much work to land a prince to not enjoy the trappings. And she really worked to get into that marriage.
@ariel….yes, the only time she’s worked hard at anything. Just sayin’….
@ariel Yes, if William is present, Kate’s has the same order of precedence as he does, and Eug and Bea have to curtsy to her, but if he’s not there, she doesn’t have that rank and has to curtsy to them.
I think you’re on to something. It probably irked Kate that Meghan was so comfortable being herself and didn’t feel the need to put on airs.
Kate was pissed the moment Meghan came onto the scene. She must’ve resented the fact that Meghan was more well-received than she herself was. Meghan didn’t put on any act, she was just herself from day one. Keen on the other hand shredded her entire self-being to get into that family. And yet the higher classes still sneer at her today. Meghan didn’t care what anybody thought of her and that’s a quality that has gotten her to where she is today. Adored by the entire globe and being applauded for her strength. Keen is a shadow in her own life and everybody knows it.
Kate’s been faking it from square one. She insists on observing protocols that don’t exist. If she hadn’t viewed Meghan as a threat they could have been allies and Meghan could have taught her how to act natural, stand up for herself and make clothes, jewellery and makeup work for her instead of being ‘worn’ by them.
Let’s not forget (and what this documentary makes clear for those in the back):
Meghan had her own life and connections to ALL of the people Will & Kate wish they were close with. Instead of purely navigating the stuffy aristocracy, Meghan was friends with Eugenie and other rich, in-the-know Brits, Canadians, Americans, etc.
So Kate was meeting someone who was already friends with everyone she could not be friends with (I mean, she has the personality of a salted fish), and Will was meeting someone that either knew the people he knew or wanted to know (who were worth knowing. Not the aristo bunch who only know each other).
Of course, Meghan didn’t see a need for protocol in private. But protocol is all William and Kate have because they cannot stand on their own merits or connections.
Lemons, you’ve neatly summed up W and K, and the royal family perhaps. Protocol is all they have (aside from untold billions, of course.)
@Lemons that’s a really good point and one of the things that I love about this docuseries. For the people who just don’t follow the royals the way some of us do, or only read the tabloids, the docuseries was REALLY good about putting out there the connections Meghan had. The pictures of her with Trudeau (where they are actually having a conversation) and her meeting Obama (in a very different event obviously but still), and all her travels and her well connected friends, etc. In my opinion, it kills all the gold digger arguments bc….Meghan was successful and well connected on her own. She gave up her independence for Harry and love, not for money – she had her own money. No she didn’t have Duchy of Cornwall money, but she had enough to be happy and comfortable and secure and to live her life.
And let’s not forget that the Royal Family hasn’t been Extraordinary in roughly 1000 years — rich as hell, ruthless as f***, cartoonishly fossilized —- because they lack basic skill, drive, and ability. They’re Aspirationally Inbred such that they *don’t even register* on a level playing field.
Would Charles, Camilla or Wills even merit a second glance on the street? Has any one of them ever said saything compelling or insightful that hasn’t been fed to them by someone more skilled than they are? Have they come up with any independent ideas or plans that haven’t been initiated by others?
They all cling to their microagressions ( aka protocols) because that’s all they have. They live in terror of being discovered for the deeply unimpressive bloodline they possess. I
It’s all that supports their station, and it sucks.
To the British Commonwealth (and it’s subjects around the world), I say: Please drop kick this family. Restore them to the anonymity they do richly deserve. And take back your stolen wealth. You earned what you have; they stole/steal thers. Rid yourselves of the parasites on your backs.
F*** the Royal Family, the whole racist, sexist, homophobic, classiest, ableist lot. They are dreadful people who shouldn’t hold sway over anything.
Kate was very uncomfortable that Meghan was more intelligent, better educated, well connected and much prettier. Kate and her mother saw Meghan as a big threat from Day One.
@ORIGINALLEIGH: Meghan’s lack of formalistic approach must have been galling to her higher-up Lady De Cambridge, because such unrestricted spontaneity resonated as a reminder of her real social background and usurped aristocratic status. Meghan acting normally kind of screamed to Kate’s face that commoners can find joy in life, which was enough to ignite her internalized complex of inferiority.
I’m trying to picture a woman whose lifelong effort consisted in mimicking the upper-class accent, taking a year off to make sure she enrolls in college the same year as the future king, having to face the bare fact she had obliterated herself to no avail. Meghan must have reverberated a painful image of effortlessness and happy-go-lucky charisma that instantly invalidated Catherine Middleton’s perceived self-efficacy.
Kate was slapped with the spectacle of a naturally-born queen in jeans. That’s when she probably learned the harshest lesson : being a woman, especially a Queen, requires self-assertiveness both in public and off-stage. The robotic, self-effacing Stepford wife doesn’t qualify for the job.
Harry played a part in the sense that he refrained from telling Meghan about the etiquette. I love the way he subconsciously worked to undermine the rigidity protocol.
@PrincessK, I also believe that by the time Kate met Meghan it was pretty clear that Meghan was the one for Harry. Not sure how accurate it is (since info was filtered through Knauf)-didn’t Finding Freedom have something in it that Meghan met Kate the day after her birthday in 2017. This being after Harry put out his back off of my girlfriend statement. Kate would no longer be the solo female pictured with the Princes. That made her very uncomfortable. She was never going to be truly welcoming to Meghan. I suspect that Meghan was introduced to Will before Kate. That was my impression..didn’t Meghan say the first time I met Kate. It wasn’t the first time I met W&K. If I’m remembering correctly. Could be wrong. So, I’m thinking, Meghan had felt comfortable to hug because she had already met Will.
@AGreatReckoning: “… didn’t Finding Freedom have something in it that Meghan met Kate the day after her birthday in 2017. This being after Harry put out his back off my girlfriend statement.”
Not everything in FF is accurate. The statement from Harry was released the day after the depressing U.S. presidential election, in early November 2016. Since Meg’s b’day is in August, you are apparently referring to Kate’s b’day, which is in January. Therefore the timeline that M met K would have been January 10, 2017.
I recall reading an article around that time about the two meeting for the first time. The article indicated that M gave K a ‘dream journal’ for a birthday present. A lovely gesture by Meg, which I doubt was appreciated or genuinely received well by Khate.
And Eugenie was born royal herself but from the shared pictures in the documentary, it seems she did not carry over the formality during personal time. Also glad to know Jack got along splendid with them. Can you imagine Kate and the rest of them with the help?
I disagree with the hugging but I have no problem seeing them as snobs.
I think Eugenie benefits (for better or worse) from having Sarah as a mom. I think she actually instilled more fun and normalcy into that upbringing.
I agree @Chewie and I also think Eugenie benefits from Charles making it known while she was still pretty young that she wouldn’t be a working royal. I think for her it was beneficial, as she was able to build an identity around something other than being a working royal. I think even being just two years older, it was a lot harder for beatrice to adjust to that.
Eugenie looks like she can turn on/off the Princess Protocol in a way that W&K can’t and won’t.
@ChewieNYC ITA, and it’s backed up by the fact that she’s developed an accent that people have said is “more posh” than William’s (or possibly the whole family’s). It’s so try-hard and embarrassing.
And I bet there are a lot of William’s friends who won’t ever let her forget it, in a million little small ways.
The true aristocratic women W chased were not interested, as we know. They have the vast wealth and freedom to spend it, as well as family built on generations; they didn’t need the lack of freedom that came with William’s money, nor the publicity. Kate will never be accepted by them. Her mother will always be seen as working/lower middle class. It takes generations to become a member of the aristocracy, and you certainly don’t get it by association through marriage or attending a private school. It must sting like hell that someone like Rose Hanbury outranks her by miles. Then there is ‘new’ money by virtue of talent, which Meghan has. Kate is stuck between the two and it hurts.
You only truly become a member of the British aristocracy by being born into it. That’s it.
Tatler magazine had made this obvious, over and over again.
@Sparrow: “It takes generations to become a member of the aristocracy, and you certainly don’t get it by association through marriage or attending a private school… Then there is ‘new’ money by virtue of talent, which Meghan has. Kate is stuck between the two and it hurts.”
^^ Spot-on! Exactly! 🎯 💯 Well said @Sparrow. 👏
Even Diana struggled with Royal Protocol. I bet Kate did as well. The difference between Kate and Meghan is that William probably let his family run all over Kate. Harry wasn’t going to let that happen to Meghan.
Likely, people were terrible to Kate when she married in. She prob called her mom to complain about it. Sadly, she then delivered that same terribleness to Meghan times 10.
It’s almost like how seniors in HS are mean to freshmen – because you can be, because it happened to you, etc. It’s basically hazing. Kate probably treated Meghan the way she was initially treated. (maybe still is, bc I get the impression she’s not well liked in that family.) But because Meghan was the only woman that Kate felt superior to, she probably was 10 times worse than what she experienced. (meaning if Kate wanted to have a higher status than someone, Meghan was basically her only option. B&E are blood royals, so even if K outranks them when she’s with William, they’re still the actual grandchildren of QEII, she’s just an in-law. Sophie was the Queen’s daughter in law and much closer to the queen than Kate ever was. Anne was her daughter. So the only person Kate could really feel superior over was…..Meghan.)
I think Eugenie, for instance, is warm in private. Kate can’t even fake politeness in public .
I reckon Kate is so mad at seeing those pics of Meghan and eugenie having fun and getting along. Especially since the york sisters hate her.
That may not be why the Waleses were taken aback by a stranger wanting to hug them. In fairness – and yes, it’s a generalisation – British people are often less tactile than other cultures and have a much greater sense of personal space. I teach a lot of international students and we frequently talk about this: for example, my Chinese students often sit or stand closer to me than I’m comfortable with, and I ask them to move back. Meghan maybe didn’t know that, and perhaps Harry should have told her.
I agree with this statement. In working in international business, we had to get training on cultural differences and interactions. She should have had the same, but where would she get such training as someone not working in Corporate America? It doesn’t surprise me in the least that as well meaning as Harry was, he was a dunderhead on the whole protocol thing. People have a tendency to be blind on things that are normal or routine to them and not consider outsiders.
I can’t even put the blame on Kate, she’s English raised so some of this would have been part of her culture/upbringing. Americans are very “big” when we come into a room. We often don’t realize it. Every time I have seen an article about her “blunders,” it boils down to the Royals not handling her “Americaness” well.
I think Harry could have helped her out in this regard. When I moved to the UK from the States to work on a very international trading floor of a global investment bank, I was still advised that I acted FAR too American and needed to scale it back dramatically.
@Juniper, “Americans are very “big” when we come into a room” I am intrigued by this statement, can you elaborate with an example?
@HamsterJam, I’m not sure what @Juniper might have been thinking of specifically, of course, but as an American who often takes American college students on study abroad trips (including to London), I’ve learned the students need to be taught pre-departure (and often reminded while we are abroad!), that that they need to, for instance, lower their voices on public transit (or avoid speaking if possible, in some of the places we visit) much more than is necessary in the US, that they need to ride escalators standing to one side only, that they can’t shout across a street/aisle in a store/etc., to get their friend’s attention, etc. – just many behaviors that are totally typical in the US but are considered impolite or inconveniences to others around us in some of the countries we visit.
Although I hadn’t thought of it like that before, they can kind of be summed up as being “big:” taking up more physical space, making more noise, etc., than is politely acceptable in other places.
Meghan double-majored in theater and international relations at Northwestern. I was surprised she wasn’t aware that the Brits are more standoff-ish and wouldn’t necessarily welcome a hug right off the bat. I also agree that Harry should have prepared her better for the first meeting with in-laws.
^^ Eh! Meghan is sharing her personal experience inside the royal family. What Meg shared doesn’t require all the high-horse nitpicking. Meg wasn’t even referring to all Brits, in any case. Let’s not forget that Meg had a number of British friends before she met Harry! Some of the royal family, Fergie and Eugenie, for example, apparently were more down-to-earth and welcoming.
Another thing to keep in mind: Harry loves the informality and down-to-earth, warm-hearted qualities that Meg exudes, which remind him of his own mother, Diana. Harry always hated the stuffy, royal protocol. He was happier in Africa and in the military, where he was accepted for himself, and where he could live a more ‘normal’ existence (as he describes it).
As well, the Queen herself has been known to be relaxed and welcoming in some private situations. Even publicly, when Michelle Obama affectionately put her arm around the Queen (a show of affection and respect), the Queen quickly responded in kind, probably to try and soften the rain of pearl-clutching and criticism that ensued. Mrs. Obama didn’t know that touching the Queen was a protocol ‘no-no.’ In her memoir, Mrs. Obama shared another instance in which the Queen actually told her to ignore protocol regarding who should sit where in the car they shared.
It’s almost a rule, really. Comes from excessive eagerness to present as “one of them” which when not brought up with it, becomes an obsession often focused on minor, inconsequential things, gestures etc. It’s such a giveaway. Funny Kate.
Maybe she dressed and behaved exactly how Harry made her think they were as that how he thought they were privately with him. Until they decided ‘he’ll no’ maybe they thought that giving her the cold shoulder would let Harry know they don’t approve and that would be that.
There is quite a public record on how much of a commoner in her behaviour Kate used to be. Her marriage and position have, of course, gone to her head. If she’d been a better human being, she could have relaxed around Meghan and found an ally. But NOOOOOOO.
I thought similarly about Harry… “hey, my brother & his wife are coming over for dinner… it probably seems weird to you but we should be dressed a bit formally (no ripped jeans or bare feet)… and I know you like to hug people but they won’t like it, so don’t.” ?? That’s just common sense that he should tell her about expectations & protocol & preferences of Brits and ROYALS (even if they’re family) so she’d know how to navigate these situations better.
Not just Harry but also Eugenie. I can see why Meghan, being friends with Eugenie, would think the rest of the younger royals, in particular, were also relaxed behind the scenes. But Eugenie of all people knew what Kate was really like. Why didn’t she give Meghan a heads up, or at a minimum, talk to her cousin Harry about what Meghan might run into?
Also, wasn’t this dinner the first time she met Kate? But she’d met Will at least once before. We’ve seen he’s visibly more comfortable when he’s not around Kate. Maybe that first meeting with him went well. Or – H&M were so much in love, everything was so new, and Harry expected his brother to be happy for him, so they both missed any warning signs from Will. Add Kate to the mix. Her antennae is up before she even gets there, Will is more tense and formal with her around, and boom, instant buzzkill for Meghan.
Or former immigrant who are 10 toes down anti-immigration.
@ChewieNYC
I think the thing is that Kate has never forgotten who she is. That she was the unremarkable first daughter of a pushy mother. And that is why she would be all airs and wanting people to bow (Or cursty) to her in private. I also suspect that she would have expected the American to “know her place”* which is not to be wandering round Kate’s brother in law’s place like she had a right to be there? A friendly welcoming hug from Meghan probably got a sniffy response from Kate.
Found it quite clever how subtle yet obvious she managed to tell that will and Kate are tightasses who cannot let loose.
This is one of the things I particularly enjoyed. Of course they didn’t come out and call Bulliam a massive tw@t or KKKhate an uptight mean girl but points were made if you were paying attention. I love it.
@Greta, William can let loose alright, his dad-dancing escapade that got caught on camera showed us that side of him. He’s tense around his wife, it seems.
I can only speak for myself, but I despise hugging on meeting people, but the rest of my family is like that too. Maybe if I had grown up with a demonstrative family I would feed differently. But I would advise to err on the side of caution and not hug someone at first meeting and maybe Harry should have advised her of that.
Also Kate looks so brittle she might snap with too much force.
Same here. I absolutely HATE being hugged by people I don’t know.
I am with you here. I am a hugger only when meeting someone again (possibly many meetings down the line) not on first meeting, and only if we’ve got to know each other really well and obviously like each other’s company. There is also a Brit way of kissing that seems to have gone out. I never kissed twice, only once on one cheek. But now I am stuck with people going in for the second kiss on the other cheek and I am always bashing noses or, worse, locking lips. Plus, post covid, I am hoping over hugging from near strangers will disappear. (Meghan was not a near stranger, I’m just widening my point). It’s interesting to hear what posters on here are saying. M seemed to imply that Americans hug but this must be a generalisation. What I can imagine is that Kate found it difficult to be around someone so comfortable and confident. Kate has been faking it her whole life and as we have heard she and her family were never fun to be around. My mum used to watch this UK programme called the Good Life. Kate is such a faux, just like Margot.
Agreed. Here is where I disagree with Meghan, the whole “I’m a hugger” business tries to make people who aren’t into it feel as if they are in the wrong. There are two of us here in this “hugging” space! Your needs as the “hugger” are not the only ones that matter…
I’m not cold or formal in the least, but I will invite physical contact only when I feel comfortable, no matter who you are end of story. Don’t touch me or invade my physical space, especially if I’ve only just met you. I’m allowed to have my preferences, too.
Remember all of us agreeing that Susan Hussey touching Ngozi Fulani’s hair was way, way out of line? I feel the same about “huggers.” Keep your arms to yourself!
Ah, you explained this so much better than I ever could!
ITA. Not everyone wants others all up in their personal space and there is no need to shame us who prefer that we are asked for our consent before full body contact. It’s a huge red flag for me when someone refuses to accept personal boundaries.
I am a hugger but I always ask before I go in for a hug and I am genuinely not annoyed or bothered if someone says “um no” (especially after COVID!). I also don’t think I hug people the first time I meet them, but I live in a small suburb and its been a loooong time since I’ve met someone new, LOL. And I’ve been married for over 15 years so the days of meeting my serious boyfriend’s brother or whatever are long gone, haha.
If they can hug on walkabouts with total strangers, then this isn’t the issue here. It was a power move. Meghan wasn’t a total stranger by the time they met in person.
You nailed it! If I just met you I do not want your arms around me, and maybe not for a long time or even never after that.
Many cultures greet through touch. Do not know a culture, could be wrong, where a person greets through touching and moving a person’s hair to see their name tag rather than just asking their name. Those are not the same thing. I think it’s fair to not like hugging and want people to ask for consent first. But it doesn’t make sense to equate someone giving an unwanted hug upon meeting to a white woman touching a black woman’s hair.
Agreed @Jais. The two acts cannot be compared. One is meant to show affection, the other is an act borne out of hatred and bigotry.
Lol. Well said,
This kind of warmth is what makes Harry and Meghan more relatable to the public. What’s interesting is both Kate and William now hug strangers in the crowd when they do walkabout, and hug children during engagements but they come off as inauthentic.
No, a social hug even if not welcomed is NOT the same as what happened to Ngozi Fulani and saying that is illuminating a complete ignorance of why it was offensive.
Not remotely comparable.
I don’t like being touched by strangers but hugging a new sister in law or brother in law is socially standard behaviour, as are the handshake or an enthusiastic “hi!” options.
Touching a black womans hair and manhandling it to see her name tag rather than asking her her own name, is socially unacceptable behaviour.
Same. I don’t like it when people try to hug me I just met. Like no. LOL.
@Lady Esther
Bad example. Don’t erase the racial undertones of that overstep just to make your point. It’s not the same thing.
I totally second the whole “I’d rather not hug strangers/people I don’t want to hug” motion!
Agreed. I’m a hugger, but I don’t like forcing hugs on people. It’s having boundaries of respect.
I also never forced my daughter to kiss people or apologize to anybody as a child. She is an adult now who apologizes to people when she means it. She has boundaries that she keeps for herself and others. Lots of people would say, “make her apologize!” Nope. I didn’t want her to learn to be fake about her feelings.
They hug people on walkabouts so that’s a lie. This is just them being superior to Meghan. If you hate to be hugged by a stranger don’t go around doing it. This was Meghan’s polite way of saying Will and Kate were not nice to her.
Agree. Makes me feel very uncomfortable if anyone breaks the one foot boundary if not among very close friends, family and not even all of them .
Really,I think since the Covid epidemic hugging folks is a big tabu.
There were two of them in the hugging moment, and only one of them was a Windsor, by marriage, at the point of the apparently aborted hug. Would it have actually killed any of you to hug a future sister in law in private? Seriously?
My best friend’s child is on the spectrum, so I get that there are levels of touch, and most of them are unappreciated.
If you cannot hug a person your family member has introduced to you, just say that.
Thank you for that. Being a hugger is not morally superior to being a non-hugger. Being overly effusive can come across as insincere and manipulative. My sister in law is like that and I can’t stand her. As a friend once said “in laws are there to remind you why you prefer your real family.”
Saying “I’m a hugger” is not an attempt to say something is wrong with someone who isn’t a hugger. Just as saying “You’re not a hugger” isn’t an attempt to say something is wrong with someone who is a hugger. People and cultures have different ways of greeting each other and it would be wrong to assume that someone expressing how they greet someone is somehow a slight to others. I think you are incorrectly trying to place a criticism on Meghan that is unfair and untrue. She admitted as much that hugging can be “jarring” for some people and she understands that. I think she was more surprised about how they were formal even in private settings, which is likely less about the hug and more about how they are probably more reserved in all aspects of private interactions. Meghan had already experienced meeting presidents, Prime Ministers and other dignitaries and so had a knowledge of how to interact with those public figures in public engagements. She also has more private interactions with Sophie Trudeau so has experience on both sides. She had also at that point already met the Queen, Fergie, Eugenie and of course Harry. Of those four royals the only one she had to be more formal with was the Queen, as that was the first time she curtsied. That to me says that she had no reason to expect that she would need to be more formal when meeting Will and Kate. Not to mention this meeting was taking place at Harry’s home, not Will and Kate’s home, so she would also take on his social cues as to what to wear and how he greet them. Meghan has enough experience meeting people of importance to know that if Harry felt he had to dress up for a meeting at his own home to meet his brother and SIL, Meghan would have also dressed accordingly. The fact that she was in jeans and barefoot tells me it was likely that Harry was dressed exactly the same way, which implies that this was in their view supposed to be an informal dinner at Harry’s home.
While very different, I do think that “huggers” really need to work on being respectful of non “huggers”
“maybe Harry should have advised her”…. I agree and was coming to say that. Harry should have warned her what they were like. Not so she would change her personality but just to prepare her so she was not so blindsided. I wonder if Harry was worried about her deciding it was all too much and leaving him if he told her too much in the beginning.
I often have the same thought. Why didn’t Harry prepare her more? Harry touched on it a bit when talking about when he first introduced her to the Queen. He was basically like “How do you explain this to an outsider?” That he, a grandson has to bow to his own grandmother even behind the scenes.
I tend to think that Harry secretly found it all ridiculous and unnecessary his entire life. That one of the things he loved about Meghan was how easy and informal she was and was probably reluctant to see that “trained” out of her.
That said, I think Will and Kate’s formal ness was their way of telegraphing to others “below” them to “know their place”.
But maybe Keen hugged Harry upon first meeting him (or he hugged her and she was fine with it or pippa hugged Harry, etc), so he naturally assumed the Wailses would be fine with being hugged by his partner.
And Nic pointed out, W&K hug total strangers (and other people’s children!) when they’re working so I have to think there was just something about Meghan that they didn’t like. Hmmm, what could it be?
In my opinion, based on everything we know about the horrific way Meghan was treated by those two, the hugging wasn’t the real issue. It was that their royal scapegoat and workhorse, Harry, wanted to form his own family and have his own life…and he wanted it with a *gasp* Black biracial American.
Not for nothing, but before I met a whole group of my boyfriend’s close friends and family, I initiated the discussion on idiosyncrasies. I didn’t want to accidentally offend by imposing some standard or interact in a manner that could offend. You should do your own reconnaissance if you care about impressions. Meghan must have just expected that people in Harry’s circle should just accept her as she is. That is a very American way of thinking. As far as Harry coaching her, I kinda think gender wise, a woman is more likely to initiate aspects of etiquette to promote good relations. Harry was probably just so enamored by Meghan he felt she could do no wrong.
Delilah – Meghan has a degree in international relations and had traveled the world over before meeting Harry, so why do you assume she didn’t do her homework? She’s met presidents/prime ministers and other world leaders (before meeting Harry) and always come across as extremely well prepared and never like an uncouth American. So I don’t get that take at all.
Couldn’t it be possible that there were made up protocols or unwritten rules that applied to Meghan, and only Meghan? We’ve seen with our own eyes how the tabloids did this (with non-existent protocols) vs other royal women and Harry himself said in the documentary that this was the case.
Delilah – Everybody has always said Meghan is tactful and caring. She obviously would have prepared herself for this but it’s absolutely wrong to feel like you need to completely change yourself to fit into a circle where you are supposed to be entering a family and you shouldn’t normalize that. Also the “woman is more likely to initiate aspects of etiquette”? Please.
Harry probably felt Meghan didn’t do anything wrong because she DIDN’T.
“That is a very American way of thinking” to want to be accepted for who you are? LOL.
Probably he just didn’t think of it. Some people are considerate and some aren’t. Since his other gfs were British they probably didn’t have awkwardness or mismatched expectations with his brother and SIL, and he’s always had people around him doing whatever needs to be done for guests, and telling him what to do to seem considerate, he probably didn’t build that skill, making it hard to support Meghan they way he should have. I know I built it late. No one is perfect, though I get that H has other good qualities.
@Louisa I completely agree. It’s obvious that Harry is completely in love with Meghan and has been since the day they met, and I do think he was afraid to lose her and opted not to prepare her in fear of scaring her off. I think he thought that everyone would love her just as much as he did because in his mind how could they not, and he completely misjudged the situation. In the doc he says he wasn’t prepared for the racist treatment, but even a white girlfriend would have been subjected to the curtsying and the classism and the American/British culture clash. I can understand Meghan being naive re: maintaining protocol and hierarchy behind closed doors, and I can even understand Harry not being able to fully describe the forest because he’s been amongst the trees since birth, but the curtsying and “my brother/sister-in-law are a bit reserved, we might want to dress for dinner” should have been the bare minimum. I would have been mortified if my husband had let my in-laws come over in cocktail attire with me in my house clothes.
It’s also not just the hugging, it’s that private protocol aspect – Kate and Will may have expected to be curtsied to, and regardless of how ridiculous that is, Harry should have known that’s just how they are. Did his other girlfriends curtsy when they met? If so, he should have known to prepare Meghan, and if not, then he should point out that the reactions to Meghan were different from their reactions to meeting other girlfriends. I don’t blame Meghan for being herself, and obviously Will and Kate are uptight jerks, but I do think that Harry could have done more to prepare her.
They are supposed to be very cultured, more exposed to customs and norms of people around the world. In some cultures, mine for eg, we kiss strangers twice on the cheek as a greeting (some places three times). We have seen William and Kate perform the Maori greeting. We have also seen them hug strangers during the walkabout. If they expert others to curtsy, they shouldn’t look down on hugging as an acceptable form of greeting.
Agree @Myra. W&K seemed to be very comfortable being carried on a litter in Tuvalu but hugging in a casual private situation is a protocol issue? I’m wondering now when KP was contacted by Netflix for comment and if they were given specific points to reply too. Mention that because, at the time, we thought the funny exaggerated headlines by the BM about Will & Tindall hugging was in response to Harry & Nacho’s friendship. Just speculating. We do know that W&K became more huggy with people after Meghan arrived on the scene.
I’m from a country where people don’t hug when first meeting, but I like it when Americans do 🙂
Like, when I met a friend of a friend who does that when we all meet up, not a random person in the street 😉
Now let’s not act like the stuffiness exhibited by Will and Kate is only about hugging. Clearly, if they were only averse to hugging and then went on to act non-snooty afterwards, Meghan would have said that. Like oh “ I caught them off guard with the hugging but they were totally down-to-earth for the rest of the evening!” Also, if William and Kate were not trying to show Meghan than she was somehow lesser, how come they are now going about HUGGING EVERY RANDOM PERSON during their public events! Please, let’s not act fresh over here!
+1 Bubs. Well said
You are right Bubs.. the hugging was definitely not the issue..those two live and breath for status and hierarchy. As Kaiser wrote: “she lacked deference to their tightass, stage-managed, emotionally constipated way of living”.
Exctly. All the people saying why didn’t he prepare her are missing the entire point. There is no level of perfection that Harry or Meghan could have achieved with these people to prevent this. Their intention was to be cold and unwelcoming. If Meghan had been formal the leaks would have said she thinks she’s grander than the future king and queen.
I wonder if it’s also possible that Will and Kate being “formal” at that first meeting was not how Harry usually saw them and that they came over that day already determined to not like Meghan and to be more reserved/haughty. It could explain why he didn’t “prepare” Meg for that. Especially if they had heard Harry talk so glowingly of her. I can totally see them looking for every flaw because they were already annoyed at the relationship.
I think it’s obvious (but Meghan can’t say this) Kate didn’t want to hug her partly because she is not fully white.
Don’t forget that clip of her recoiling from the Jamaican Minister of Culture.
William is no better.
Exactly.
Bingo.
Spot on @C.
I’d rather not hug someone I’ve just met. I’d also put on some sort of shoe if I were hosting new guests. I don’t wear outside shoes in the house but I have indoor shoes. It is just respectful to think of the comfort of your guests. But I do 100% believe Will and Kate are probably way too formal and expected her to be deferential and in awe of their status. Sounds like Harry was so in love he didn’t realize not everyone would find Meghan’s lack of understanding as charming as he did. That set Meghan up for a rough ride.
They are hugging people on walkabouts. So this was a choice for them.
Hugging is one thing but I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that Meghan should have worn shoes in the house to make Will and Kate feel more comfortable. How fragile are they that they can’t deal with seeing someone’s bare feet? It’s not like she greeted them without having her pants on.
Being shoeless in my own house is something I do to make new people comfortable at my place. Like, “no fancy heels here; it’s just us; make yourself at home.” I didn’t realize people could feel the opposite was more welcoming!
Maybe W&K were peeved that M was treating H’s place like her own home? Like how dare you settle in before the queen signs a form approving of you?
I don’t understand why anyone would be offended by someone not wearing shoes inside their own house.
I must be horribly informal, making all my guests uncomfortable lol
But why are you wearing shoes around the house. If it’s FAMILY that is visiting, why would I need to have shoes on in my own home???
MY question is…..WHY was she wearing jeans with holes in them. Why does ANYONE wear jeans with holes in them! (but I’m just an old cranky gramma. LOL)
@OriginalLeigh Shawna Rachnz Bex: the shoes vs. bare feet in the home is a big difference between some cultures. In Spain, for example, and in Japan, you are expected to use slippers or house shoes at all times (including in your own home). Many Americans are much more comfortable with bare feet and can be oblivious to how much it bothers people from the other culture until an insightful person clues them in (sheepishly raises hand).
Yes, in my house/family/circle the barefoot part is not acceptable.
@Alice, why is it not acceptable? You can look at a number of different sites-let’s say pinterest as one-where there are countless ideas for shoe shelves/cubbies in entry ways of homes. For a good reason. I’ll share this link from the Today show since they seem a bit sycophantic to the BaRF.
https://www.today.com/home/health-reasons-why-you-shouldn-t-wear-shoes-house-t129820
So at last year’s holiday concert, I remember being really surprised when Kate hugged Beatrice, Eugenie and Zara. So clearly, Kate can hug someone when she wants to. Pretty sure she just didn’t want to hug Meghan. They were formal with Meghan to put her in her place and bc they didn’t like her. They were also sure she wouldn’t last all the way to the wedding. Imagine there surprise when she did.
Yep. She hugs people in receiving lines sometimes too. Everyone saying they don’t like to hug people randomly either is missing the point imo.
But she’s known them for years! I also hug my in-laws. But if my brother is introducing me to his girlfriend for the first time, I’d much rather not hug her.
Also at a Commonwealth Games event in the summer, there’s photos of Kate & William arriving and hugging/kissing the seated Sophie, Lady Louise & Kate leaning towards James going in for a hug/kiss. Confusing behaviour.
This is exactly right. William & Kate were not ok with hugging Meghan. Lots of photos & videos of them hugging people. And of course they let their guard down in private, but not with Meghan. Remember those videos of William from a few years ago (he was married at the time) on a guys weekend. Dancing like a drunken fool and partying with his friends. No protocol and propriety there. Not the behaviour of a “future king”. Meghan’s hugging story shows that she was frozen out from the first meeting.
Kate likes to bestow hugs on other people. It’s meant to make her seem warm and generous.
Receiving a hug from someone who believes she’s your equal — because she is — is a different matter for Kate. It’s then she turns as brittle as a statue.
Kate hugs for the cameras, she is totally up for dancing to the tune of the media to get favourable coverage. Everything she does is public is for the front page.
But William and Kate have no problem hugging strangers while on walkabout or engagements. So what was the problem with hugging Harry’s girlfriend at their home? I suspect that it was more than a hug. William and Kate were probably standoffish when they met Meghan.
Thank you, AmyBee! They’re suddenly everywhere HUGGING STRANGERS…so what changed? What was different about Meghan, huh?
Sometimes I wonder if some commenters here are actively obtuse. Hugging people in walk abouts is part of the job. They do it whether they are “huggers” or not. I am not a hugger. I would feel quite uncomfortable if my brothers gf went in for a hug on a first meeting. And shame on them if they judged me for that. My body and I have a right to consent to when and how it is touched without being judged as cool or uptight or brittle or whatever else.
Meghan didn’t judge W&K for that. She judged them bc they were cold, formal aholes to her regardless of the hugging.
@Sarah, if they can just get on with hugging in public because it’s part of the job, as you say, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to hug your brother’s girlfriend in private and it’s “obtuse” to act like it should! It’s also obtuse to miss the larger picture that it wasn’t just about the hug but the fact that they expected deference from Meghan…hence the standoffishness…you see, we can all throw insults about!
@Bubs – wasn’t an insult, just a thought/observation
You know who never gave hugs in walkabouts? The Queen. So for her giving hugs was not part of the job and she was the head of the family.
William and Kate giving hugs to strangers on walkabouts, but being weird about it with future sister in law Meghan is a choice. And that choice was to make her feel unwelcome.
@Nic19 thank you I was going to say the same. Princess Anne doesn’t even shake hands with people on her walkabout so this “part of the job” is bullsh!t. Its a choice that each royal makes. Will and Kate are racist snobs. And I’m sure they aren’t the only ones in that bunch..
@Nic et al: But did W&K do hugs on walkabouts before Meghan entered the family? I don’t remember and wouldn’t have been paying attention then anyway, so I don’t know the answer. I’m not in any way defending their cold reception of Meghan. (I personally would go out of my way to hug a new BF/GF to be sure they feel welcome in a family gathering, and decide if I like them or not later!) I’m just wondering if the “hugging on walkabouts” thing is another way they are mimicking Meghan’s style.
They had no problem traveling/breathing on people during Covid with their maskless Choo Choo train tour. Hugging before the pandemic breaks protocol?smh
That’s the thing about consent though. Just because someone consents in one place with someone does not mean they have to give consent for that same act everywhere to everyone. I’m Team Harry and Meghan, but she was in the wrong on this one.
Same. I was thinking about that during this scene. I don’t want to be touched without permission. But the barefoot casual part suits me fine, and I’d get over the uncomfortable hug bit if I then clicked with that person.
I’m a hugger. But before I hug new people, I say – do you hug? Then if they say yes, latet in our friendship I’ll ask if they need or want a hug depending.
I dont even hug my boys without asking first. Consent is important.
Then I suppose K and W should also make sure consent is given and received before they hug random strangers on walkabouts! Or are they suddenly acting tactile to people they don’t know, only because they now think it’s the cool thing to do? Are we going to act like we don’t see them hugging strangers in public now? Letting them give profuse hand kisses, even? Surely, they aren’t hypocrites, are they? Lol
You’re on fire @Bubs. @Moxylady, really, you ask your boys if you can hug them before hugging them? I have a daughter who has been hugged since forever. She laughs at it. In a way that it’s the one thing she can count on. That we could be mad at each other and I will hug. And, it brings her comfort.
I certainly hope that during W&K’s Massengil anniversary video they asked their children for permission for hugs.lol
Ah, but I bet Harry DID hug Kate and she DIDN’T object. And didn’t Will whine that he couldn’t put his arm around Harry anymore? He seems to be fine with being all over Tindall in public.
This.
Kate literally wore white to MEGHAN’S wedding. We know why she didn’t want to hug her, lol. People need to quit projecting their dislike of hugging onto Kate as the reason. It’s not the reason.
That is a very good point. I bet Kate was desperate for Harry hugs, and Meghan was getting them all.
Or W&K (Kate esp) had no problem being hugged by Harry but didn’t want to be hugged by Meghan because ‘we are very much not a racist family but really we are’. How could Harry warn her against something he didn’t know would be an issue? He’s known as a hugger too. The talk of ‘Kate could have been nicer/friendlier to Meghan’ didn’t come out of nowhere.
Given how much leeway and politeness Harry showed to Kate in public? Why would he expect Kate to turn in to an uber jealous, don’t you dare touch me bitch about Meghan? William may avoid any PDA with his wife, but he’s seen in public being physically affectionate with people like Peter and Zara. So it isn’t like *everyone* is forbidden to hug William.
Huge Team H&M here. But when it comes to hugging someone you are meeting for the first time, agreed. I want to know I like you enough to hug you. And all due respect to Meghan, ripped jeans and bare feet when you’re meeting the future in-laws for the first time? Who does that, even when they’re not tight-ass royals.
I can see being casual in your own home meeting your SO’s sibling & partner. It’s just dinner. I see nothing wrong with that.
Nikki, I guess you have to ask yourself if this is a “formal” dinner or not. This was not Harry’s girlfriend. This was Fail and Wails future sister-in-law. It sounds like H&M considered the evening to be quite informal. The attire really doesn’t matter at that point, does it? I think where this went wrong is that Meghan was thinking of them as family and acted accordingly for her which was to hug them. Fails & Wails obviously didn’t consider her family and acted accordingly for them. Pretty simple if you think about it.
I wonder if Harry thought they would consider her family. He must have been quite surprised when it dawned on him that that wasn’t the case. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Harry hugged Wails when he met her as his future sister-in-law. He did have a quote in the media about her being a “sister”. Let’s not give him one set of expectations and Meghan another.
let’s be clear – those “ripped jeans” came that way. they were probably very nice ripped jeans. Khate and her husband were clearly pulling rank. I think Harry was even more blindsided than Meghan was. he expected his brother & SIL to be welcoming to Meghan and they never ever were.
Well she wore ripped jeans to the Invictus games where she and Harry first went out publicly as a couple and it looked perfectly fine, so I doubt she looked like a slob. And I wear socks when family members come over and wore them to meet my sibling’s partner and nobody died!
The ripped jeans were probably an expensive designer pair. Let’s face it, l bet Meghan looked great, she does casual chic effortlessly.
@Nicki my thoughts exactly. No hugging people who are not very close and we do presentable clothes/shoes at home. Just the way we were brought up.
Some people are huggers, some people are not. I’m in the latter category. I’ve noticed in the last few years that more people are saying ‘I’m a hugger, can I give you a hug?’ rather than just grabbing onto you, which I appreciate. And I tell them I appreciate their asking.
Best thing the pandemic did was give all of us non-physical-contact people a permanent out!
I love a hug, but appreciate being asked first and will ask before hugging someone I’ve just met or don’t know well.
The visual I’m getting of a cardboard stiff William and Kate, reeling in the face of the warmth of a barefoot Meghan is making me smile. As others have already said, for a couple who may not like being hugged by strangers, it’s interesting to see them suddenly getting tactile with strangers on their walkabouts.
to me there were two layers to that story – the hugging being jarring for someone (not just a british person) who is not a “hugger,” and the hugging being jarring for a family obsessed with hierarchy.
the first can be offputting, sure – if you’re not a hugger and you meet someone who grabs you for a big bear hug at your first meeting, it can be a little jarring like she said. But I think most people get over it and usually the hugger realizes that this person is not, in fact, a hugger, LOL.
But the second is emblematic of what Meghan was talking about – that the formality carried over behind closed doors. This is not a family that is warm and affectionate when the cameras are off. This is not a family that kicks off their shoes and puts their feet up when no one else is around. The hierarchy is always, always in place and I can imagine that being “jarring” for most Americans, and maybe a lot of British people as well, IDK. It puts it into perspective when the royals talk about the queen being a wonderful grandmother, because she sounds very different from what I think is the American ideal of a wonderful grandmother, you know?
I’m not a hugger and I move away if people try to touch me without my consent.
Is hugging an American thing? Because I see it on film but we as a nation don’t hug adult friends and relatives. Affection is almost always expressed verbally.
honestly, I started hugging people more after I spent time in Spain and became very used to kissing people on the cheek as a greeting so I’m not sure its entirely an American thing.
But like I said above I ask before I hug, i’m not wrestling someone to the ground and demanding they give me a hug the first time I meet them.
Physical contact including hugging is not an “American thing” – please don’t slam Americans for that. Plenty of cultures have a multiple-cheek kiss as a greeting, or other ways to show trust and openness in physical ways (palm touching, forehead touching etc).
Personally, I think when you live in a multicultural society, regardless of our own cultural norms we should acknowledge people’s boundaries by not being physical unless invited, but that’s my personal belief and I understand fully that other cultures see things differently. I’m just stating my preference.
@Becks1 I’m Argentinian. We also kiss on the cheek as a greeting, but it’s almost an air kiss (cheek against cheek, not lips against cheek) so some distance is still maintained. This is not accompanied by a hug. I hate being hugged by people I don’t know.
Yes, hugging is a common greeting in America though as you can see in this thread it isn’t for everyone. My husband is Dutch and when we visit his family who are Iiving in the Netherlands there is a sometimes a slight pause as we figure out is it cheek kissing or hugging or both. His friends have told me that hugging feels more intimate so I do try to respect that it isn’t for everyone. But like Meghan I am a hugger so I do try to remind myself not everyone is like me and ask or look for discomfort when meeting someone.
As I said above. Brits used to kiss once, I recall. That was when I was growing up. It’s changed to twice. I think people think it’s more French/continental and therefore more sophisticated! I prefer the old style. However, I have a lot of European and some Middle Eastern family. Traditions are different. There can be multiple kissing. It depends on context: there are boundaries and occasions, and that goes for both sides. I think that can be done pretty quickly.
I wouldn’t say hugging is necessarily an American thing – my family didn’t do that with strangers, though when I moved South it seemed so many people did it when meeting a friend of a friend. I’m sort of in-between, I don’t initiate, but if I see someone coming in for the hug, then I’ll do it.
My perception is that hugging seems to be a very prevalent greeting for actors and actresses, more than in the general population. Maybe it’s because they all have a flair for the dramatic, and hugging is a more dramatic way of greeting someone?
Yeah, I see layers to the hugging part, but the Wails’s issues went far beyond that.
I’m not a hugger. Some people in my family are. Some of my friends are, and some of my colleagues are. When they try to hug me, I explain that I’m just not that way, and 99% of the time, everyone is cool with things. The handful of times the hugger insists on touching me, that’s a whole other set of toxic issues, and I absolutely know Meghan wasn’t like that 1%.
The hugging story is just an illustration of how hierarchy and formality plays such a role in that family, always. That’s got to be really offputting, because how can normal emotional relationships grow when that kind of mindset is at the heart of everything? And I’d add, it’s a mindset that’s a choice, because Harry and Diana are very obviously the types to let their hair down behind closed doors. King Snarles and the Wails chose to embrace the hierarchy because they’re small, petty people with little self esteem. They can never earn the same love and admiration H&M do (and Diana did) for being warm, likable people, so they try to force it.
We have seen kate act very tactile at engagements with people like Federer or Ben Ainslie and so this was just a power move.
After all the Middletons were the family of sumo suits for Christmas. Pretending she’s suddenly formal now is just being a bitch.
Plus how is the double kiss greeting any less an invasion of personal space than a hug? And they do that all the time.
Both the single & the double kiss is too much for me, as is hugging. You’re comfortable with it or not.
That’s what I was going to say — whether it’s considered an air kiss or not, I personally feel that the double cheek kiss greeting that many Europeans (and very often we see the RF members doing) do is just as “intrusive” as a quick hug in greeting would be. I think people are splitting hairs here.
But Becks, we’ve heard that Will literally kicks off his shoes and puts his head in Carole’s LAP while she feeds him cheese toast. And wasn’t their casual informality the thing he loved most about joining that family? So I’m just not buying the they don’t relax in private argument. It’s seems obviously directed at not wanting to make Meghan feel welcome. And that while Harry went out of his way to make Keen comfortable when she joined the family, the Wailses refused to reciprocate for Meghan.
oh that very well might be the case, but meghan wouldn’t really know how they act around other people, so all she would have to go on would be her own experience.
The thing is, I don’t think she hugged them when they FIRST met. It seems that she met William first, then she met Kate (with William) and THEN they were invited to dinner at Harry and Meghan’s— and THAT’s when the (attempted?) hugging took place.
To me, if they had got along at the first meeting(s) (especially as it has been said that William liked Meghan “at first”), the hugging from someone like Meghan would be spontaneous. I’ve had strangers hug me goodbye at the end of spending a long day together, and at first I found it surprising, but then appreciated the gesture as the people who did this did not tend to just hug any- and everyone they met.
However: if William and Kate (who was said to have been “wary” when she first met Meghan – which she would have been if William had met her first and had received a positive impression = competition in Kate’s eyes) had decided to be unwelcoming after Kate had met her, but nevertheless accepted the invitation to dinner, then I can see them being frosty towards receiving a hug.
Odd this, especially as both William and Kate have been going out of their way to ensure that they are photographed hugging complete strangers, certainly over the past two years.
Full disclosure I haven’t watched yet so maybe this is addressed but from what everyone is saying it sounds like she was making the call about how formal or not they are based on their first meeting. I don’t find that first meetings are always representative of how people are.
No, she made it very clear that the first meeting was indicative of their formality, but it was not the only sign. She actually found them very formal behind closed doors all the time.
This may sound like a stupid question, but why isn’t she supposed to hug them?
Because there is a large chunk of the population that doesn’t hug people they have just met. They wait to bond and get to know them first. It’s forced intimacy. Do you hug people you don’t know? I doubt it.
They do the double kiss greeting with many people so this was just an excuse.
But Will and Kate are now going about on public engagements hugging random people! Hahahahahaha
These comments are intentionally overlooking that Kate has hugged strangers before, and family in front of the cameras before, spontaneously too.
@Nic919, a kiss in the cheek is nothing like a hug. Distance is still being maintained. It’s a small brush of cheek against cheek, so it’s not even someone’s actual lips against your cheek.
Tikichica, yet again, how come W and K can give hugs and kisses to random strangers on walkabouts now? Seems like we’re just going round in circles! Point is, there is nothing against being averse to hugs; however, that should carry through with everyone! You can’t say they hate hugs or can’t be expected to hug someone they just met, when they go about in public, hugging strangers now…except you want to point out that they are HYPOCRITES who are just doing it for show!
I remember there was a story about Edward recently, how he stood back at a walkabout after Betty died and refused to go close to the people because he didn’t want physical contact…I would understand if Eddie was the one doing this, and not W and K!
A kiss on the cheek is skin contact and a hug is not. Some people find kissing on the cheek way more invasive than hugging which involves no skin contact.
Besides we have seen kate hug strangers so this was a choice to keep their distance as a power move.
Unless it is an air kiss, plenty of germs to be spread with someone’s saliva on your cheek.
As I said above, I’m not convinced that the hug took place at the “first” meeting. She clearly felt comfortable enough with them to do that. Their first meeting was not when William and Kate went round for dinner, it’s clear they had met before the dinner invitation.
@TikaChica, with all due respect — especially in this post-Covid world, I don’t consider a double-kiss greeting any less intimate than a brief hug. You are still close enough to breathe in my face, so how is that better than a 2-second hug?
I do not know but I think this was bad on Harry’s part. Why did he not ensure that she knew? I do not understand this at all ….is he afraid of losing her that much that he does not tell her anything that might make him look negative in her eyes? I do not understand this aspect of their relationship? It is the same way he sprang her first meeting with the Queen and not preparing her to be able to at least curtsy before hand. Is that hazing of the spouse so ingrained that even Harry did it subconsciously? I am puzzled by this.
My interpretation of it is that they probably WERE more relaxed around others than around Meghan. If Kate was predisposed to dislike her, then something like an impromptu hug may have just been icing on the cake. i don’t think Harry expected his family to treat M the way they did.
Maybe Harry did tell her and that’s why she thought they’d be OK. Harry has introduced at least two other girlfriends that we know of to William and Kate. He likely thought better of his brother and sister than they behaved.
Because WHY would he think a QUIET dinner with his brother and sister-in-law would be a formal event when he’s supposedly had LOADS of QUIET dinners with them? Mind you, William joked about Harry raiding his fridge. “Palace sources” claimed Kate was always in and out of Harry’s cottage, supposedly helping him find dates. So, it’s strange that this open and informal dynamic/relationship is ignored in order to paint Meghan as someone who doesn’t know how to behave.
“Hazing of the spouse”. Lol. I am absolutely tickled, especially since you just found the perfect characterization of initial meetings of a significant other of their partner’s parents or friends with little or no preparation. I have an aunt and sister that make it a point to put newcomers on the spot or deliberately be outrightly rude as way of seeing what said newcomer is made of. It’s appalling. And selfish. Truly decent people may not be equipped to manage such bad behavior and as a consequence could project said bad behavior onto their partner, which could inadvertently jeopardize what could have otherwise been a good partnership or union between the subject couple. Then again, all couples need to be effective in navigating familial and others’ antics together to build and maintain a good relationship.
I think it’s really clear that Harry had an informal, casual, comfortable relationship with W&K when it was just them and he expected that to continue and extend to Meghan so he didn’t prepare her for something he had no reason to expect. Of course their relationship is different now, but I think he didn’t expect them to be cold, formal, etc.
Yea, I wish Harry was more clear on this – like, were Will and Kate informal and casual with other girlfriends, and their reaction to Meghan was uncharacteristically cold and rigid, or were they always like that with other girlfriends too and he just didn’t tell Meghan.
IMO, the curtsying to the queen thing and all the emphasis on “they maintain protocol even in private” that we’re being told seems to indicate to me that it’s the latter. He absolutely should have known Meghan would have to curtsy to the queen and should have prepared her for that, and that seems to be a pattern of him not clearly communicating with Meghan precisely what would be expected of her.
Obviously the palace was determined to hate her and nothing she did or didn’t do could have changed that, but it seems like there were a number of specific instances that could have been avoided if only Harry had told Meghan what to expect. (And again, if these expectations were only for her, like the protocol police in the press, then Harry should explicitly clarify that.)
Much as I love and respect him, Harry owns much of this. He’s physically demonstrative, unlike the rest of the emotionally “constipated” (excellent word) family and courtiers, and they were SO loved up, Meghan had no warning that she was walking into a buzz saw. What a freaking shock that all was!
I agree. Same with the curtsey. Did he really not tell her she was meeting the Queen until they were on the way? He could have showed her how to curtsey, this sounds so stressful for Meghan and so easily preventable.
So the way they told that story, both in the series and on Oprah, is that they didn’t know the Queen was going to be there. They were going to meet Eugenie and Jack (and sarah and andrew) and on the way they got word from Eugenie or someone that the Queen was going to stop by for lunch after church.
In the Oprah interview Meghan said that Fergie taught her how to curtsey before she met the Queen.
What would this have changed? People with manners and good social coaching never would have made Meghan feel uncomfortable for these things. William and Kate deliberately didn’t. That’s what any manners book, ettiquette class, comes down to – it’s suppose to be invisible and seamless and you never yield manners as a weapon and you never make people feel uncomfortable over it. It would not have changed a thjng.
They might not have known they would meet the queen that day, but even still Harry should have prepared Meghan in advance – she was visiting the UK all the time, she could have met the queen at any time, and he should have been proactive about that.
Yes, people with manners should not make others feel uncomfortable for gaffes, and maybe her being prepared would only have moved the goal posts from “look how unprepared and uncouth this American is” to “this American is so grand she must think she’s the next queen,” but IMO it’s always better to be over prepared than under, and with so many unknowns ahead of them at that time I would have thought Harry would want to prepare for and control the limited things they actually could. Telling Meghan in advance that everyone curtsies to the queen is like the absolute bare minimum. We know that Kate wasn’t exactly bffs with his other girlfriends, so a heads up that Kate isn’t the warmest so proceed with caution, should have been a no-brainer. I guess I just don’t understand how those things don’t come up in conversation, and it makes me wonder what Harry did tell Meghan about his family. We know he thought she’d finally have the big family she always wanted, and how wrong that was, and I wonder if even now Harry truly sees how his family has always used him and just how Machiavellian their treatment of Meghan, and him, was from the beginning. She was prepared to swim with the dolphins and then was thrown to the sharks.
If they never did things like the double kiss greeting I would say sure they don’t like contact, but they have done that and that for many is more invasive than a hug.
William and especially kate were doing a power move here.
I agree. I feel like Harry’s attachment issues were screaming through when describing how other partners left him when confronted with the formality and rules of the royal family. I feel like there was a lot of “what can I do to keep her from leaving me” calculations going on constantly before they were actually married and a lot of it involved withholding of crucial etiquette information from Meghan.
Meghan quite obviously wanted to be with Harry, as much as he had his light on to be ready for marriage & family, she did too. I feel like she was doing a lot of boundary bending for him that was fed by his calculations on how much information to give when that could have perhaps been figured out better.
As bad as the firm’s behavior was, so too was Harry’s in not leading Meghan’s “princess” training himself.
I don’t think Harry realized his brother and sister-in-law would flip the script on their behavior. He’s seen them in action for almost 15 years at that point. They’re reported as being extremely close “before Meghan”.
Kate wanted to throw their weight around, much like how allegedly did towards the York Sisters.
They were acting differently. It’s not like he said she could hug the Queen so he was likely guiding her based on how they reacted in the past to previous girlfriends.
Yep. There are pics of Kate and Chelsy hanging out casually watching them play polo.
Look, I love me some Harry, but he owns a good portion of some of this mess. If I am dating you you need to tell me hey honey, my mom really doesn’t do wine as gifts, or flowers, or whatever. You have to prepare that person.
William and Kate had at that point met how many of Harry’s gf, there would be some formality there. They still suck for everything that came after, but good grief I would have grabbed that man by the ear after we left.
“Grabbed that man by the ear…”. Lol. I concur.
Completely agree @ChillinginDC. There’s a saying I often say, “you don’t know what you don’t know.” I think that applied to Meghan in a lot of cases here. While it’s not for me to say if W and K were rude or racist or whatever (I definitely think they were!) but I think we can all agree they have that “stiff upper lip” that Meghan has referenced before. Meghan probably thought (as I probably would have too!) that the royal stuffiness and formality was all an act they put on in front of cameras and or at events. Apparently it isn’t.
100% agree with all of this.
Lmao that part was hilarious. As an American, though I immigrated here as a child, it’s totally what I would’ve thought as well. That these people are family and yeah they do all the protocol outside the home, but inside, it’s just like any other big family. And Meghan learned that is not the case at all. It’s all stuff that got me to also see the part of Diana that Harry sees. Yeah, the activism and warmness has been obvious, but that lack of guile and the openness that Diana had is also evident in Meghan. It’s what Harry saw and loved.
The whole 3 episodes were so great. There were the fun parts that made me lol, the shocking parts, and the sad parts that made me tear up a bit. It was great. I’m so glad they did this. It’s so nice to see them be themselves, without the formality of ‘royalty.’ It made me like them so much more. And I had been kinda apprehensive about the series because though I understood why they did the Oprah interview and what they had to say, it just seemed so rushed and restrictive. There wasn’t time to say all they wanted or needed to say. Now they’re getting that time and it’s glorious. It’s just nice to see and hear about their many layers in their own terms and from their own mouths, respectively.
I hope there’ll be an open post to just talk about the series and not be restricted to certain topics. Thank you for this space to discuss all this. I’m avoiding social media because I know what a clusterf it’ll be lol.
I just completely disagree though that the Wailses do the whole formality thing inside the home. The queen, maybe, but not W&K.
I mean, they published pictures of George meeting Obama in his pajamas! That’s not very formal. And as I wrote upthread, we’ve heard a million stories about how much The Other Brother loves the Midds for their informality. How much he loves lounging on the couch with his head in Carole’s lap and eating cheese toast…can’t get much less formal than that!
George was in a little bathrobe in that photo.
Yes, a bathrobe over his pajamas. And is a bathrobe more formal than PJs? They’re basically the same, IMO.
In my WASPy family, a bathrobe is what you would put on if someone dropped by unexpectedly, or you went out to get the paper. It was considered more appropriate than pajamas or a nightgown.
Do not use this as an example of how the Wailers can do informality.
George was only 3 or 4 years old at most when he appeared in a robe before the Obamas and was appropriately dressed for a child on his way to bed.
IMO George being in his pjs or a bathrobe to meet President Obama had absolutely zero to do with them being a casual family and everything to do with them being very much a racist family. A Black president got to meet George in pjs because they had no respect for him, hence not removing their racist painting before his arrival. I guarantee George would have been dressed differently had the president in question been white.
And TOB having his head in Carole’s lap eating cheese toast is *his* behavior, and we know full well he thinks the rules apply to everyone but him – we have no indication of how casual Carole was, and I’d bet she was in heels and pearls.
It was George’s bedtime. He was appropriately dressed for going to bed. Kate and William were desperate for him to be photographed greeting the first black President of the United States, so it could be splashed on the front pages the next day.
Probably the same reaction she had when Lebron touched her lol.
But it’s funny because now they sure do love to “hug” strangers as if trying to prove a point. It still looks so stiff.
A barefoot Black peasant
Personally, I think they were guarded because she was an American actress & the cultural differences between the RF and Hollywood are about as divergent as it gets.
Well, I’m not a free spirit like Meghan, so I would err on the side of formality when inviting to dinner prospective in-laws who are also a duke and duchess. And I would expect my boyfriend/fiancé to warn me in advance.
But, whatever. I watched all 3 episodes and loved the whole thing.
One thing I think that actually hindered Meghan is she already had experience interacting with powerful people in both public and private so she assumed it would be the same versus someone who had never had any interaction with powerful people before. She had spent time with the family of both a current and former Canadian Prime Minister for example.
Slightly off topic, but Kate looked SO much younger when she was pregnant. Her extreme thinness is aging her.
She always looks better pregnant and right after. Those few pounds really do make her face less haggard and hard.
It’s not a “Mumbles” thing. It’s a ” we’re all different” thing. I hate being hugged by people I don’t know, and I am Argentinian, where people introduce themselves with a kiss (which I also hate). So yes, Meghan did the right thing, and she was being herself. And the Keens also were being themselves, and there is nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with not liking to be hugged by people you don’t know.
I think the quiet part about this piece is that she wasn’t welcomed. I don’t think Harry warned her that protocol wasn’t left at the door bc it usually was. He says protocols were made up for her. He probably expected William and Kate to be fine with hugs.
Steph fair point. Maybe Harry has seen them hugging their white friends and girlfriends in social settings so he thought there was no need to inform Meg. He did not even ask her to change clothes so you might have something there.
Fundamentally I’m don’t fancy this hugging culture. But I think you raised a fair point.
Exactly, Steph. They were making it clear from the start that Meghan wasn’t welcome.
Amen. He expected them to show warmth and interest in this woman he was introducing to them as his serious partner and they refused.
If she hadn’t hugged, then they’d have found some other way to put her in the wrong and make her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.
This is the only explanation that makes sense, and it is the saddest. 💔
Exactly @Steph.
I also kind of assumed that behind the scenes they were a normal-ish family but I think that really drove home the point that these people are not a family in any traditional sense of the word beyond being related.
I’m not a hugger and I truly despise being forced into a hug, but I don’t really think that’s the situation here – I think that was definitely more about hierarchy and being tightasses.
Also when I met my brother’s girlfriend a few months ago, she hugged me and it was fine. Like as much as I hate it, I’m aware it’s not uncommon.
So is this why Kate brushed off Williams touching her back in that video?
Hahahaha. And I guess that’s why Will refused to hold Kate’s hand in Boston…
Honestly I am not a hugger either. I don’t like it and I struggle with that even towards people I know well. Even just expressing any sort of affection is hard for me. I try but you can always tell it’s awkward when you hear/see it. So on that end I do understand being jarred by a hug.
Doesn’t excuse W&K’s continued behaviour towards her though.
I liked that Harry mentioned that much of the so-called “protocol” was made up to put Meghan in her place.
Exactly this.
As someone else noted above, we all have different feelings about hugging, kissing, etc. But Kate and William were predisposed to dislike Meghan because they’re racist jerks. And they held her to standards no one else was held to.
I think W&K went into that with their predisposed ideas about M (be it racism, her being American, jealousy or anything else). They acted like stuck up snots to make her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. We don’t know if M wanted to hug them as they came in or if it was on the way out AFTER they had just had an intimate dinner with them where M thought they had gotten to know each other. It seems that it’s M’s way of showing friendliness. I do the same thing, greet without a hug and hug after getting to know you. But as others have said, W&K would probably find fault no matter what. I can also see how M would think that the formality would not be there in private having seen H being formal in public but relaxed in private. As far as H not telling her that W&K would be distant & cold towards her, maybe he didn’t anticipate they would be like that. A few months after meeting my husband, we went out with a big group of his friends. He didn’t mention to me that one of his friends was blind because it was just normal to him and assumed it wouldn’t make any difference to me. It took me a few minutes to figure out she was blind when she wasn’t reacting to things as a sighted person would, but no big deal, just carry on. I do still tease him occasionally that he should have let me know, but in jest. How many of us have met a family members significant other or friend and not liked them? The thing to do is to be polite and kind when interacting with them and not say anything to our family member that would hurt their feelings or make the whole situation uncomfortable. It’s their choice not ours. The problem is that the RF, BM and Public think they have a say in what choice in who or what makes others happy & fulfilled. It’s all about CONTROLLING others, NARCISSISM, and being RIGHTEOUS. Sickening to say the least!
This story really gets to me. I’m an American, and I’m not a hugger. I hate when people I don’t know at all or don’t know well (yes even “family”) try to hug me. I find it a huge violation of personal space. And every single time the person gets angry if I say no I don’t want a hug, like I’m the problem. If William and Kate don’t like hugging people they’re not the bad guys here. Meghan (and every “hugger”) needs to be accepting that not everyone likes hugging people they don’t know well. Maybe we should start asking if it’s okay before touching people like this and violating their personal space.
Thank you 🙂 Especially for survivors of sexual abuse, being hugged against one’s will is extremely triggering. Stay OUT of my personal space unless you want to really piss me off.
Sorry for your experience but respectfully, since when did Kate become a victim of sexual abuse? And again, how come she and her husband can hug random strangers on public outings if they’re so averse to hugging? What makes Meghan different from the strangers she hugs on public outings whom she doesn’t know from Adam?
@BUBS, I didn’t take Pip’s post as saying Kate survived sexual abuse, I think they’re just saying that hugs are not universally welcome and can be triggering for some people that have experienced, say, sexual abuse. There are “hugs” that I am forced to do in my job and while I go along with it because employment, I HATE IT. It makes me cringe. I often wonder if people can sense the hatred I feel when I have to get close to people I don’t want to.
Respectfully, I think you’re doing a wee bit of projecting here. It wasn’t about the hugs. It was about putting her in her place.
But this goes beyond just the hugging. It was part of every interaction with the family behind closed doors – the formality, the hierarchy, the idea that they were the ROYAL family and not just a family. That’s why she says she realizes that being a hugger can be jarring for a lot of Brits (I would say it can be jarring for a lot of people) but goes on to talk about how formal they all were. It wasn’t just about the hug.
That’s it exactly. She used the hugging story as an introduction to the larger story, that the Windsors maintained a formality with her in private settings which she found unsettling & perplexing.
I get that but the fact is she specifically said she is a hugger so she just instantly hugged Kate. This is something that happens all the time, people who are “huggers” NEVER think of other’s feelings, those of us who don’t like to hug are told to adjust. And even the spinning this as a putting her in her place completely disregards people who don’t like to be touched and hug’s feelings and experience.
Note I am no way dismissing Meghan was treated terribly and the family was less then welcoming, but she is wrong here. Huggers need to start respecting others don’t like to do it
If William and Kate are not huggers, how come they’re now hugging random people on public outings? If they weren’t snooty and trying to show some form of superiority, when the change in public now? Surely, if they’re just like you and hate hugs generally- which is understandable- they wouldn’t be behaving differently now that they’re trying to show that they’re just as cool as H and M!
I understand about the personal space. It’s too bad that the huggers in your life don’t respect your desire to not hug (I’ve been lucky that most of those I know do respect my space). One friend whose mother in law kept insisting she had to hug him and would get offended when he said no finally stopped when he answered her “But I’m a hugger!” with “That’s interesting. I’m a boob puncher.” Yeah, their thanksgiving was an interesting one.
Beyond that, Megham likely DID respect their space once it was clear they weren’t huggers. But I think the issues the Wails had with her went well beyond that, and Meghan was just using the hugging story as an illustration of the overall formality and distance they insisted on keeping from her (how dare she think she’s their equal and all that).
Fair enough. I take it thats your PRINCIPLED position.
Now explain to us why bully and kitty are hugging every black person they organize to be seen with, ever since the Departure of you-know-who.
KMT
I’m not a hugger for the most part, because I just never grew up that way. I feel awkward hugging someone if I know they too feel awkward hugging me back. But if someone warm like Meghan hugged me I wouldn’t feel awkward. I think in those situations, just go in for the sideways one armed hug.
THANK YOU!!! I have no idea what any of these people are really like but this is the only part of the doc that offended me, especially the framing. Huggers always expect you to appease them and if you don’t then YOU ARE WRONG. Like if I know and like you I’ll hug you all the time but if I don’t know you well (and that is at my timeline) then I DO NOT WANT TO BE HUGGED!!! The fact that it is being framed as they are cold and formal (they could be don’t know don’t care) instead of they don’t like to hug strangers and THAT IS OK is so offensive.
I feel like besides the hugging, probably the most jarring thing for the keens was the lack of deference. Meghan didn’t feel the need to dress up for them, and she clearly wasn’t nervous about meeting the then FFK – she assumed they were equals and acted accordingly.
Normal Bill and Cathy talk a big game about how, shucks, they are just like regular folks, but when confronted with the chance to actually be “normal”, they didn’t seem to do so well.
@Jay think your comment really nails it! Definitely about W+L expecting more deference. The fact M was chilled out and not nervous about meeting these people clearly put their noses out of joint.
Meghan was also cooking for them in Harry’s cottage, it sounds like. She was, in their minds, asserting a form of “ownership” over Harry and his space that they previously thought they had.
W and K have a chilly transactional contract so an in love, warm and huggy biracial woman would have not have unfrozen this couple. They were repelled and keen to demand deference which they feel is their due. I would have loved to have been there at that first meeting!
Sigh. It sometimes sucks to be from a different culture and not know the rules. Here, Meghan is not wrong for being a tactile person, nor are W&K evil for not being warm personalities. However, it would have been better if HARRY had warned her! First impressions are really important and quite frankly, Harry must have known how his family functioned and he could have done a better job preparing Meghan for that.
Completely agree.
Has anyone considered that Harry had no reason to warn Meghan of their possible informality, if he himself had never experienced them like that in a relaxed setting? So many here have tried to justify their uncomfortableness with hugging but continue to ignore the commenters who have stressed how Will and Kate have frequently hugged strangers during walkabouts, especially in these past couple of years. If their issue was genuinely about not liking being hugged they would have never started hugging strangers in these past two years. I’m not a hugger but I’m not opposed to being hugged or hugging others in certain situations. My now in-laws hugged me when they first met me, and although it was different and unexpected, I appreciated it as them being who they are and didn’t take issue with it. I understand there are those who don’t like it but the issue with Will and Kate is beyond that because we know they do hug complete strangers on the street during walkabouts. Walkabouts being their job isn’t an adequate excuse because this has been their job for nearly 12 years and hugging didn’t become their thing until recent years.
Meghan in the five years that she has been associated with the royal family has never once dressed inappropriately, so it is unlikely that she would have done it to meet Will or Kate. She would have dressed as the occasion would have suggested and as her boyfriend would have likely dressed. She has interacted with people at various levels prior to meeting Harry, including Eugenie. She has previously interacted with royals privately before with Eugenie and now Harry and would have no reason to expect they Will and Kate would be different, especially at Harry’s home where she is cooking. So to think that she must dress formally for an informal dinner that she was preparing the meal is insane. She would make assumptions of what to expect based on what she knows about Harry (and Eugenie) and would likely expect his brother and SIL aren’t tight assess who would expect her to wear a dress and heals to a meal she is preparing for all of them at his home. Harry’s title didn’t define him in private and she likely expected the same from them.
Kate was born a commoner and her fans call her down to earth. It shows snobbishness on her part imo to put on airs.
The point of Meghan saying this wasn’t just that she tried to hug them and they weren’t into it. It’s that the distance and formality continued as time went on.
She was their future sister in law. Normal people attempt to deepen that relationship. William and Kate never did so it’s pretty irrelevant when people say they don’t like getting hugs. The point is they made no effort to get close.
This! The point is not about the hugging, and I think people are getting caught up on that. Fine you don’t like to be hugged, don’t hug, whatever.
But the point is there was a formality in the family behind closed doors that was never welcoming. That formality eventually became a cudgel that they could beat Meghan over the head and shoulders with. The point is that, not the hugging.
Agree! There are some bad faith actors on this thread getting caught up on the hugging.
YES people are really hyper-focusing on the hug, when Meghan’s point was that the formality continued well beyond that. she even acknowledges that she realizes now her hugging them might have been a bit “jarring” BUT…..and then goes on to talk about how formal they are otherwise.
Someone is already trying to demonize Meghan by bringing sexual assault triggers into the chat. This is a particularly sinister reach.
Yes! I find the hugging discussion to be frustrating, because it’s clear that racism and snobbishness were the factors at work here.
This explained why Kate made Meghan cry. She was annoyed that Meghan wasn’t following protocol and took it out on her. She pulled rank on Meghan. I believe Diana also had a lot of problems with the formality behind closed doors.
There were other royal weddings where attendants did not wear tights so it was not protocol.
I know that but Kate was using “protocols” to put Meghan in her place.
Totally agree. Look the initial hug thing as you can see among commenters is understood. It’s weird to do upon first meeting and then just ask if people like it or don’t like it.
But after was the issue. They kept being formal tight asses. They didn’t ever just say we are family. They treated Harry/Meghan like rivals they had to put in their places. At all times.
And everyone arguing that Will and Kate hug people they meet on walkabouts, yeah they do, and if you don’t think they don’t go home after and wash with soap made of diamonds and gold you are not getting what Meghan is also backhanded saying, they are fake people and can do that, so she probably assumed they have no problem with it. But with family, they do have an issue with it and don’t like doing it. She kind of screwed K/W here and it’s hilarious to me.
“…go home and wash with soap…” lol. I see what you did hear. Brilliant.
I’m not a hugger of someone without warning. Anyway a tip for the non huggers who aren’t comfortable with trying ppl you don’t want a hug: when the reach their arms out to you grab their hands and hold them in between the two of you while you exchange greetings. It shows them you aren’t grossed out by them but also anything more than a handshake is intimate and uncomfortable so they likely won’t do it again. 😀
OK, Steph, but I don’t want to touch them or be touched by them at all, and I shouldn’t have to defend my torso by grasping their hands.
What IS it with all the hugging? I have a very hard time understanding what people get out of it. Power? Oxytocin? Amusement at my discomfort? Do people understand that when they force those physical contacts they do not guarantee a positive emotional reaction, and risk a very negative one?
Honestly? I think a lot of you have had a lot of misfortune. The only time I’ve ever been hugged against my will was by a crackhead who I promptly slapped. Every other hugger I met gives me the opportunity to decline via words or body language. None of them just grab me. They put their arms out and give me the opportunity to either walk into the hug or not. And quite frankly, I’m sure Meghan did that.
I think this is a double sided boundaries problem. People need to learn to set boundaries as much as people need to learn to accept them.
But see, even that’s too much for some of us. I don’t even like the handshake! And now that my right hand is firmly on a cane, I don’t have to! Works great for me. Fewer people want to topple a person leaning on a cane!
To those who say, well, I don’t like to be hugged by strangers either, these were not some random people she was meeting. They were her brother-in-law-to-be and his wife! Hugging in that situation as a sign of welcome and affection seems pretty natural. And no one would ever accuse me of being “a hugger”. And as someone pointed out above, they hug perfect strangers when out on “meet and greets”!
Exactly – I am not a “hugger” per say, but if I was greeting the person my brother was so over the moon about, I would do my best to welcome her.
I think part of it was that she wasn’t a blonde aristocrat from their own circle, and wasn’t deferential to them. But I also believe they didn’t really take Meghan seriously as Harry’s future partner – they believed (and did everything they could to ensure) that the marriage wouldn’t really happen, that Harry would come to his senses and ditch the actress. More fool them, it’s clear that Harry’s happiness was never a goal.
Very good point, they didn’t take her seriously as Harry’s future partner. Plus Kate in particular was no doubt on immediate alert; beautiful, charming Meghan could clearly be competition in the royal fold, and she diverted any attention Harry might otherwise give Kate. And maybe Will didn’t want to make it obvious he was attracted to Meghan.
I think the point was not about the hugging but they used it to help us understand how unwelcoming they were.
I think it was hinted by this example because they couldn’t say it outright, they couldn’t outright name Pegs and Buttons, but we all understood it.
YES. Its not about whether people are okay with someone touching them without their consent. No one is saying that people should be okay with that. Meghan is using this story to not-so-subtly tell us what things were like behind closed doors and how she was made to feel unwelcome.
They have hugged people in walkabouts. But the biracial sister in law is crossing a line for them.
Yeah, it wasn’t really about ‘hugging’ it was their formality that surprised her. Considering William is Harry’s brother, to be that formal and stiff behind closed doors with your own blood was a strange concept. I don’t think she was expecting them to be as icy towards her as they were. Considering how down to earth harry is, and also eugenie, I guess Meghan thought they would be the same.
Remember these were times when we all thought willie and Kate were actually nice. They only started showing their true colours publically after Meghan.
I feel like this is on Harry, tbh. Beyond the tightass hierarchy protocols bullshit, people just have varying levels of comfort with physical contact. I don’t like being touched without my consent, period. If I’m meeting someone who puts their hand out to shake or a hugger, I’m not gonna be impolite and make them feel awkward by being like “no thanks”, and I’ll shake their hand or hug them, but that’s what I’m feeling. Harry knew his family better than Meghan did and should have let her know they do not appreciate touchy-feely warmth, and that’s a situation that would apply literally no matter who they were, like even if they were just some normal, anonymous family.
It’s not just about the hug. It’s about the stuffiness which carried over even in private. Like, hug or not, if W and K went on to just act normal and down-to-earth for the rest of the evening, it wouldn’t have been so jarring to Meghan. It would have just been a case of “oh, I threw them off for a bit with my tactile nature but they were totally cool rest of the evening.” And again, as I would keep repeating in this article today, how come W and K are now going everywhere hugging random people? How come they’ve suddenly become huggers since Meghan left?
Meghan had more power than she realized!
Hugging is also a common show business greeting from what I’ve observed. W&K probably didn’t like that. Ewww! She’s so Hollywood!
@Plums Love Harry, but agree he should have been more forthcoming in briefing Meghan on what to expect. This reminds me of the Crazy Rich Asians storyline when Nick never mentions a thing about his super rah rah family to Rachel and then just dumps her in the midst of it to sink or swim. It’s not cool!
But, Plums, maybe this wasn’t Harry’s experience with his brother and sister-in-law at all and so how could he have warned Meghan to expect something that didn’t exist?
We’ve seen how touchy feely Kate used to be with Harry – IN PUBLIC at work engagements (so imagine her fawning in private) – leaning on him, whispering in his ear, touching his body, etc. Plus we’ve heard about Will loving the informality of Kate’s family (his head in Carole’s lap!), so maybe there was no reason for Harry to warn Meghan because that’s not what he’s previously experienced with those two.
Not to mention the Wailses being absolutely fine hugging complete strangers (including children – where’s the consent there?) when they’re interacting with the public.
Thank! You! @SussexWatcher.
I have such contempt for these apologists for RACISTS. Every royal watcher on the beat before M came on the scene can site chapter and verse of kitty being inapproriate with her BROTHER-IN-LAW in PUBLIC! Fawning all over him and smiling up in his face and leaning into and on him. In PUBLIC. People used to write screeds about her inappropriate behaviour with her BROTHER-IN-LAW.
Next thing you know, Harry falls in love with the woman of his dreams and suddenly the touchy-feely kitty is a prude who doesnt like to be hugged?
GTFOH!
@Plums – Try a step back, a smile and a “sorry, I don’t touch” just once, instead of giving in to the social pressure. Most people will be OK with it, and you’ll have one tiny bit of negative emotion less to carry around. Over time you’ll get more comfortable and the decreased wear and tear on your psyche will add years to your life. (OK, that was hyperbole, but please don’t do stuff you don’t want to do just because you’re afraid of inconveniencing someone else, when it takes its toll on you instead. They’ll get over it.)
Excellent advice!
@Plums I said above that I am a hugger. I am not at all upset if someone says “oh sorry that’s not my thing” or whatever. (I also usually ask before I hug if I don’t know someone but I’m not sure how I would have acted in M’s position here.) But I do not think it is impolite of someone to say “oh I prefer not to” or something. It’s completely fine. People who hug should ask and people who don’t want to hug are perfectly within their rights to say no thanks.
Harry wouldn’t necessarily know that they wouldn’t welcome a hug in a private setting. It’s not as if he would have had a time where he would have seen them distance themselves from a hug. His two previous girlfriends likely weren’t huggers like Meghan and it’s not like people just randomly explain vices that they might have if they have never had situations to know those vices exist. Besides as a brother and SIL he likely expected them to be as excited to meet this woman he is clearly in love with and wouldn’t expect them to be so reserved. I have seen them hugging people in public and their kisses on cheeks also include their hands grasping their arms to bring the person in, so it’s not as if they refuse touch publicly so refusing it privately with your family members potential future wife seems revealing. Also to the person referring to washing their hands after hugging people publicly, the same could be done after hugging someone in private. This is why it seems less about the hug and more about what was probably constant formality with them.
Isn’t Katie a ‘peasant’ too though? She’s from a working class family who has a weed growin – er…I mean party planning business 😉 Isn’t that why the aristos laugh behind her back at the affairs her husband has? Isn’t that why she has been obliterating her face with Botox? Isn’t that why she shops till she drops?
Will on the other hand is/was so jealous that such a vibrant beauty who had her own life was scooped up by his younger brother. Will wants Harry’s wife and Harry’s life.
Social status has nothing to do with whether or not you like to be touched and hugged.
I don’t like that everyone, including Harry and Meghan, expected Meghan to be the only one making concessions in the cultural differences. Meghan was the only one expected to change. The Lames walked into Harry’s home and expected that home to adjust to them.
Exactly. It’s just bad manners to go to someone’s home and to behave like that.
However, that is EXACTLY how the British royals act – due to their immense entitlement. There are so many stories about the Queen Mother expecting to be given things from other peoples’ homes if she said she liked it. People literally hid away their heirlooms and favourite things when they knew she would visit because of this.
They expect everyone to accommodate them no matter where they are. That is the epitome of royal privilege (and they are used to everybody accommodating them).
LOL about the QM. Too bad she didn’t live back when the monarchy could just take what they wanted.
Funnily enough, QM wasn’t born royal – but she certainly liked to take advantage of her royal status. That’s why I think the idea that all she wanted was a quiet country life and that her becoming Queen Consort was such a huge burden is utter BS.
I thought that was Queen Mary (the Queen Mother’s MIL) not the Queen Mother? Or did they both do it?
It was learned behaviour. There are also stories about Princess Margaret doing it.
I remember reading a journalist talking about interviewing the QM – and she served filled chocolates. However, she didn’t let him choose, she constantly told him which ones to eat. He was so confused until a footman told him that the QM told him to eat the ones she didn’t like.
@Talia, I believe you are right, it was Queen Mary (QEII’s grandmother) and not the Queen Mother who was known as a “magpie” because she would enter a home as a guest and expect to be given anything (piece of art, furniture, family heirloom) that she verbally admired. She sounds, frankly, awful, and to think of her influence on QEII who was still influencing the current BRF as recently as three months ago! The point about most of them still expecting to be accommodated at all times is well-taken and oh so true. Personally I’m fascinated with this aspect of the BRF, they way they still live like the privileged classes of a century ago, stiff manners and codes intact. They are a living time capsule.
Hi @arthistorian! We simultaneously posted. If you say that Queen Mary’s descendants did it too then I believe you, apologies for correcting you on your own thread. I’m glad to have the chance to tell you how much I always enjoy your smart, informed, and thoughtful posts on this site. 😊
It wasn’t the QM, it was Queen Mary who expected people to give her items in their houses she liked.
Thank you Steph! Very well put!!
I think Harry should have warned her that they are not a hugging family, but people need to chill about the whole thing. I mean, does anyone actually LIKE physical greetings?
I live in Europe and have to put up with people kissing my cheeks, which I hate way more than hugging. Although since COVID I even feel a bit skeevy shaking hands.
Have lived in a bunch of European countries; my experience is that, with weird exceptions, people don’t actually kiss cheeks? It’s limited to briefly touching your cheek against the other person’s cheek for a microsecond – lips shouldn’t be making contact with cheek skin!!! That said, I have one random Euro in-law who does properly kiss cheeks with lip contact and agree it’s invasive. When it does occur, it seems to be a demographic/class thing rather than cultural.
Ah yes, you are correct. But I guess for me it’s the skin on skin contact that gets me, which is perhaps why I would prefer a brief hug.
So the family that’s all about tradition and pomp and pageantry thinks calling them formal is an attack? Desperate.
As for Meg, I’m sure Harry thought she should be herself because he loves her and thought others would love her too, so she didn’t have to change. I also think the fact that Harry’s other girlfriends were more familiar with BRF formality probably caused him to take it for granted he didn’t have to explain certain things. Also, his prior girlfriends being white might have meant that he didn’t expect certain negative reactions Meg got just for being mixed race. I suspect he behaved like he always did with what he warned his gfs about, not realizing Meg needed different warnings due to her race.
So what is the difference between Eugenie and Kate
If she was doing that with Eug is there off time is must seem weird
This also goes with the curtsey thing – on the radio in Britain in a big thing with people callimg it treason while Eug was saying she did it fine – so at that point the 5th and 7th in line to the throne were fine with it even though Meg was mocking her self
Something that stuck out to me was also Meghan say that the way they behave publicly is also how they behave privately. That they act “formal” all the time. It’s why I believe Jobson when he said William and Kate have explosive screaming matches. They’re cold to each other in public so of course that’s the way they treat each other at home. It’s very bizarre and also explains why they’re such a dysfunctional family.
Meghan is a hugger; I’m glad she did her thing.
Now we are expecting Harry to have anticipated every bump in the road for Meghan and to have warned her in advance? Yeah, no.
Mumbles was most likely already jealous and on her guard when she googled Meghan and saw how cool she was.
If the Keens had warmed up to Meghan the stiff hug response would have been a shared joke instead of it now being framed as Meghan’s fault.
I didn’t come from a demonstrative hugging family, but once I left home and really started encountering families that didn’t know me but embraced me, it made a huge difference in making me feel welcomed and accepted. I am freer now with hugs than I was decades ago.
Meg has British friends that she has hugged.
Will and Kate are just takers from Harry; they needed to step up and make an effort where Meghan was concerned but they were too lazy and self-centered and jealous to care and that hurt Harry big time.
I’m not much of a hugger but if that bright ray of sunshine came in for a hug, I’d hug back…hard!
I think the “not hugging” was emblematic of their whole attitude towards Meghan. They didn’t want her as part of the royal ecosystem period, and that’s why they tried to destroy her. That’s the part that she didn’t say out loud. I’m someone who doesn’t like to be touched either and I’ve always been that way. But I don’t think less of people who do, in fact I kind of envy them because I know people call me standoffish. I just prefer to connect with people through conversation first.
Everyone is getting hung up on M being a hugger but this story was a great way of subtle giving us a nugget of information: they live and die by that formality, rank even behind closed doors. There’s no letting their guard down, actually being a FAMILY. At least not with W&K. I thought this was a clever way to reveal it. The difference between their obvious closeness with E&J vs the frigid 2 is stark.
They literally curtesy to each other in private. (Or they did until September, perhaps the “modernizing” KCIII has changed things.) It’s insane.
Charles would never change that rule, if anything he probably wants his family to curtsey more to him, 😂
Hugging someone that does not want to be hugged is really invasive. I know lots of non British people that don’t like hugs unless they know you really well. I love hugs but I’m really conscious of those that are uncomfortable with the physicality of it.
If W and K really don’t want to be hugged and think it’s massively invasive, then they would not be throwing their arms around random people during public walkabouts, now! Or are we trying to pretend that we don’t see them hugging strangers during public outings and letting them hold and kiss their hands profusely? They should maintain their stance of no hugging in public as they do in private…just like Edward did after Betty died when he stood away from the crowd because he didn’t want any physical contact! But W and K are simply snooty hypocrites who were seeking deference from a woman they wanted to “put in her place!”
My guess is they view hugging the public as part of their job. A lot of us have to do things for work that we’d rather not…
Then that reflects even worse on them- that they can stomach physical contact from random strangers but can’t bear to hug their own brother’s girlfriend who they just met! It would be more understandable if they didn’t hug anyone at all. Like, make it equal across the board! Or were they trying to pass an unspoken point across?
I think my mother would stiffen if I was to hug her and if someone I just met tried to hug me I would have serious issues with that. Sorry but what about personal space?
The stand offishness/stiff upper lip of English people is something that took me a loong time to get used to – am Scottish and we are for the most part a friendly sociable bunch of people (who can be quite huggy after a whiskey or 3). I have English friends that I have known for years and they are not really into the hugs, even thou I am so I totally get where she is coming from.
When it comes to the Keens – the ‘formality’ of their relationship is pretty obvious. Both are cold fishes and there was once upon a time she craved any sort of physical contact from him that thats now long gone. Any PDA’s are seriously awkward as fk which is the biggest tell that they is no informality between them. And ITA with the others that kHate is a peasant who puts on ‘airs and graces’ just like Hyacinth Bucket does ‘The Wails resident, Princess of the house shrieking’.
I found this part difficult because: 1) Where was Harry in all this telling her to be a little more formal meeting his brother and his sister in law? He’s known them forever. 2) For all the huggers out there, please don’t hug strangers right away. There are those of us who HATE it before we know someone really well and that’s not uptight. 3) Of course the protocol and stiffness carry over. To compartmentalize would be so hard, not everybody can do that for decades. They bow to their frickin’ granny and now father.
Harry has the benefit of his military service and having gotten out of that horrible bubble they all exist in.
I see a lot of people asking that, and since this was Meghan’s story we didn’t get to hear his perspective, but what if they weren’t standoffish like this normally? I think we’re all taking it because of how stiff and formal they are in public now that they always interacted like that with him, or with the women he dated before but that may not have been the case. I personally am friendly but not overly bubbly when I meet new people, so if I all of sudden became a “hugger” I’m sure my siblings wouldn’t have thought to warn anyone about me. I wonder if the opposite is true in this case. Maybe they are never the warmest and friendliest, but maybe they usually weren’t completely cold either.
I know we all like to give them the benefit of the doubt but sometimes we can just take what they tell us at face value. Harry must have known there was an absolute canyon between how Meghan greets new people (future family) and how his brother and sister in law do. Let’s assume they are normally a bit warmer. Do we really think their “warm” would be anywhere close to Meghan’s? I honestly don’t see it. But in general I got the impression that Harry had evolved away from his family already and was wearing rose-colored glasses at the time. He did call himself naive to some things. I just compare it to my family and how well I know them and can predict their reactions in most situations.
I felt bad for them because as many of us suspected, they were so blind to so many things and didn’t really listen to what some of their friends or her mom were saying. I get it, they were in love. But man.
@Emmi, That’s where I actually disagree. I think people would like to believe they were just so in love that they saw the world with rose colored glasses and didn’t realize how others viewed them. However, these are two extensively traveled people who have interacted with a lot of other cultures, can clearly read social cues, and have clearly high emotional intelligence, I don’t think being ” in love” would mean they just barreled everyone over. I think that the real issue is that Harry clearly thought his family would behave one way, and as he was the one with the most experience around them the fact that they didn’t was the anomaly, not that the Sussexes were oblivious.
@Emmi, Will and Kate are shitty people. All their behavior towards Meghan afterwards is the tell. So I don’t think this is about who’s a hugger or not. They just hated Meghan and didn’t want her around, let alone in the family. This is a family full of creeps, grifters and pedos that think they are truly better than the peasants.
I think Megan used this story to try and indirectly tell us that Kate and William are stiff, boorish even behind closed doors !
I always think when Harry says that Megan is smart, intelligent caring and excellent at her job which she is, took to Royal duties like duck to water, more or less indirectly saying Kate didn’t and isn’t, and l think.the boorish formal.Waleses know this esp William!
For all those saying PH should have warned her, I bet he DID hug W&K (and I bet K liked for him to hug her). PH seems to go barefoot and dressed down a lot so I bet he did that commonly with W&K also. He didn’t anticipate that there would suddenly be stiff protocol when it was just his brother and SIL coming to dinner so that shows it was about Meghan. I think he is trying to hint that without flat-out saying W&K are racist, xenophobic jerks. I could also see Harry as even being less formal with TQ.
@Equality I wish I had seen your comment first! Ditto ditto ditto.
@Equality – Thanks, this is a great point and makes me re-evaluate my comment on this up thread.
Yes, Equality! This is what I keep trying to say upthread. I really don’t think they are that formal in private and so there wasn’t a need for Harry to prepare Meghan. We know William loved the Midds for their informality and put his head in Carole’s lap (this would then be a man with problems hugging?). We’ve seen Kate be very touchy feely all over Harry, for years. We’ve seen the Wailses hug strangers. So I don’t think Harry was expecting them to be so cold toward Meghan and therefore no need to warn her in preparation.
However, Wails aside, being more upfront about protocol re: QEII and flagging that M would, at some point, be expected to curtsy to her, would seem to be the kind thing to do for your significant other in this situation.
@SussexWatcher I want to throw up in my mouth every time that visual of Normal Bill resting his head in CarolE’s lap comes up 😂🤢
I just wish he was more clear about this. When they’ve talked about protocol being invented for Meghan, it’s always in the context of the press badgering her about avocados and black nail polish and car doors and the like. We’re all doing a lot of speculating and assuming when it should be pretty easy for him to specify: did Will and Kate act differently with Meghan than his other girlfriends or not? prior to Meghan joining the family, had they observed hierarchical protocol like curtsying in private or not? If his family had always been warm and open to others and weren’t to Meghan, he should say that explicitly. If his family was always rigid and protocol-obsessed even behind the scenes, which is what it seems Meghan is saying she was surprised by, then absolutely he should’ve prepared Meghan for that.
I wonder if things were different when Phil was around. Eugenie in her tribute to him talked about casual barbecues and there have been articles about him playing practical jokes on the grandchildren. You would think that Eugenie would have warned her about Kate but maybe she also thought Kate had matured and would be different with PH’s GF since she was supposedly “the sister he never had”.
So the difference between Harry hugging them and Meghan hugging them is the relationship. They didn’t know Meghan so maybe they weren’t comfortable hugging. There is a huge difference, and while I don’t dispute William and Charles and the family was terrible and it was inexcusable but the hugging people that don’t like to be hugged is wrong. It is ok to say Meghan was inconsiderate in this moment while also acknowledging she was treated horribly. And before I get the walkabout poster coming for me, I hate being hugged by strangers and yet at work I have too do it because you can’t make the business relationships uncomfortable, and huggers are never considerate of non huggers in my experience.
I think it’s pretty obvious Harry expected — and was used to — W&K being normal and family like when it was just the three of them. That’s why he didn’t warn Meghan, imo. He figured it’d be the same as it always was…and it wasn’t. Now in larger groups was it maybe more formal? Possibly, maybe probably. But if from Harry’s perspective, his relationship with his brother and Kate was mostly informal behind closed doors he would not have thought to warn Meghan off. It’s quite possible that Harry assumed since they accepted him as an informal, friendly guy without formality that they’d accept his serious GF the same way. If you go back, pre-Meghan, it’s very clear in public Harry and W and K have a comfortable relationship. I don’t think that was for the cameras. I think they did have a comfortable relationship but it turned sour, probably starting with them reverting to formality, snobbery and hierarchy when being introduced to the love of his life.
I dont think harry was buddy buddy with Kate
She would giggle and grin around him which may have made him uncomfortable. He would be the third wheel and did not look happy at times. If they were close Kate and will would have been nice to Meghan
I’m not a hugger at all, but even I think that it would probably be appropriate and not awkward to give a brief hug to my brother’s fiancé when I first met her? Especially in an informal home setting. You don’t have to initiate it, but you can reciprocate it enough to make her feel comfortable. I mean, are we talking a full body hug or just a quick pat? There are hugs and there are HUGS.
Will and Kate are just stiff. And it sounds like they were not keen on making Meghan feel comfortable. As a non-hugger myself, I don’t think they have an excuse here.
To be fair, as both an American and a hugger, I feel so caught off guard and like a wooden mannequin when I’ve met Spanish and French people who lean in to do the face kiss. So I try to be cognizant of other cultures’ physical boundaries. Although I totally get what she’s saying towards the bigger point.
I’m not a hugger of strangers, but I would have hugged a future family member. If my brother introduced me to his fiancé, I totally would have hugged her and welcomed her to the family.
I do think that Meghan should have dressed up a little for meeting her future BIL and SIL for the first time. I felt ripped jeans and barefoot was a little too casual for that scenario.
But I also wonder if W&K were unnaturally stiff and offish around Meghan, whereas they were normally casual around Harry.
I thought the whole public personae of the RF was just that… a public persona. It would suck to carry that into private life. I would not want to be in that environment.
If Harry thought the ripped jean barefoot was a problem, I’m 100% sure he would have said something to Meghan beforehand.
I am not a hugger. I don’t want to be touched. But I feel like it’s much ruder to make someone feel awkward over ripped jeans and bare feet in their own home.
I don’t usually comment but wanted to jump in here cuz I am seeing some weird reactions to this. I haven’t actually watched yet so I am going off what is being said. It’s okay to not be a hugger, it’s okay to be a hugger, feeling each other out and getting to know how each other is part of joining a new family. What this sounds like is finding one small aspect of a person and using it to vilify and demean them as an excuse to do what they already wanted to do. They had already decided to show her she was not welcome as a part of their family, hugging has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Thanks Stephanie and Murphy and Nicegirl below. I think that’s very true that they were putting her in her place, never going to accept her and as Murphy noted she probably had different expectations since Eugenie was a friend. I binged all of them last night, because I was avoiding comments that might be spoilers. It was so watchable.
That is exactly what I did.
Great point Stephanie, and I agree with you that that is in all likelihood what was happening there.
They were never going to accept Meghan.
The part where Meghan said when W&K came over, she was “barefoot and in ripped jeans” was really interesting because to me, it sounded like they didn’t let her know they were on their way and just popped around. Ofc Meghan would’ve probably been more out together if she knew they were coming. This woman wrote blogs about hosting and food fgs.
The brf really suck
We have been told for a decade that behind the scenes there is all this warmth and a lack of formalities and in particular about wills and Kate how they “don’t have staff/ don’t have a full complement of staff” and how “Kate makes you tea and William serves it to you” and “Kate answers the door herself at anmer” and along comes Meghan to call BS on it all
this is why the press is freaking out. With these little anecdotes, Meghan is blowing the whole “they’re just like us” narrative wide open.
Ehhh, I’m giving them a pass on this. I’m European and we don’t really hug the way Americans do. I do think that Harry was charmed by her cultural background, but it could have been averted with a simple conversation.
The ‘hugging’ people on walkabouts by W&K appears to be a self conscious appropriation of Meghan’s ‘style’. I don’t recall TQ doing this and it must terrify the Royal Protection Officers. As for shoes, now it IS considered bad manners in the UK not to wear shoes indoors. But… higher ‘classes’ wear smart slippers or house shoes. Working classes never take shoes off. I won’t go into detail on that. Harry should have told Meghan all these peculiar (to her) nuances. Probably she thought it was all mad but..
ChattyCath, since Harry also likes to go barefoot at home, I wonder if he was wearing any shoes.
In there last Xmas pic it looks like the whole Sussex family were barefoot.
It isn’t about the hug, it’s about Harry not explaining that his brother believes he was ordained by God to be the unelected head of state from his first memories. William has been Othered, Specialed, and bestowed power throughout their lives in a way that makes etiquette so key, etiquette Harry withheld. That kind of entitlement is culture shock for anyone, but Harry’s fears of abandonment led to some really poor choices that hurt Meghan the most, ultimately.
Harry was not prepared to be open with Meghan about how monarchy corrupts core family structures, leaving power structures & hierarchies in its place, meaning that Meghan needed “princess” training before the engagement. Harry should’ve led with that, but his fears of abandonment were driving the ship.
But being a member of the RF and British maybe it didn’t occur to PH that such things needed explanation? This had been his reality his entire life. I think he has had quite an extensive education since meeting Meghan.
This isn’t about William and Kate expecting deference or being snobby. They are probably both cautious when meeting new people socially for the first time.
I thought it was odd for Meghan to be barefoot when serving dinner to W&K. Most people would want to make a good first impression by putting on shoes.
Meghan literally said that the formality carried over behind closed doors. It wans’t just about the hugging. It was 100% about W&K expecting deference and being snobby.
I go barefoot in my own house all the time, whether people are coming over or not.
As an Indian-American, I don’t understand the obsession about shoes inside the house. I find it just way more cleanly and hygienic to not wear shoes inside the house. If anyone comes over to my house and judges me for not wearing shoes, they will be escorted right tf out, lol.
Purplecupcakes, I’m with you. My mother’s culture also removes their shoes when entering houses, though I didn’t grow up that way in the States. Living in Holland: lots of people have this rule , some don’t, but we do. It’s so much more hygienic (!!!), and especially helpful when someone has allergies or asthma.
A lot of people don’t wear shoes inside their homes, though. I don’t. I don’t want to drag in the grossness of outside.
Used to live in Japan and you never wore shoes inside. But when you’d go visit another house, there were usually guest house slippers right in the doorway that you’d put on after taking off the outdoor shoes. I thought it was cute although some might not like the idea of wearing the same slippers others had. Maybe people also carried around their own guest slippers and I didn’t notice.
I doubt anyone cares about the shoes. I wouldn’t. Hugging though is not a cultural thing in Europe, it’s more a kiss on each cheek as a greeting. I do believe that Kate is pretty dry/cold in general, but that’s just her personality.
Hugging in Europe (for friends/ family relationships) depends on where you are. Southern Europe is more likely to kiss cheeks. So does France, Belgium and Holland. Germans and Swiss shake hands. Austrians and Hungarians may hug you when you leave a first meeting if there was a click. Scandinavians hug. So does Scotland and Ireland (both parts).
I agree – I think the clash between how informal M appeared and the awkwardness of the initial exchange just serves to highlight how badly Harry prepared her for this meeting. Expectations could have been tempered on both sides, but it seems he left her out to dry.
Boglet, this assumes that they were ever going to be inclusive with Meghan. I don’t think they had any intention of making Meghan welcome. This hugging stuff is just an excuse, but it certainly isn’t a reason.
I do not wear shoes in my own house, holiday or not, guests or not. You’ll be seeing me in socks or slippers, I don’t care who you are. With all the germs, pesticides, chemicals and crap that gets tracked onto your shoes it’s simply not hygienic or sanitary, and so we are 100% a shoes-off household once you step in the door. I even have hotel slippers that I bought in bulk on Amazon and I offer them to guests when they come over, because if *I* don’t wear shoes inside my house, you sure as heck are not going to. Besides — who the hell are W+K to dictate proper manners/protocol inside someone else’s house? Absolutely NO ONE has the right to do that.
Hi Bonnie just say that Meghan is an uncultured cow and Kate is the bestest princess to save everyone the time of what u actually think
Why does that uptight wisteria sister think she’s better than everyone else? Kate thinks she’s so high and mighty, when let’s not forget about her antics throughout her twenties. She was a jobless woman who shamelessly waited around for a ring. That’s who she was. Now, because she married a BALD prince she thinks she’s better than everyone?
She was the golden child of a narcissistic mother. They’re raised constantly being praised for no reason, constantly treated as superior to their siblings.
They end up entitled as adults. They expect to be given special treatment without having to do anything to earn it…..hence Kate doesn’t see why she should have to work.
Katie Nichols who hung out with the royals said she didn’t like Kate before she met her. Like nearly every one else in Britain she saw her as a social climbing lazy stalker. But when she got to know the middletons she really liked them. She said she liked Kate more than Pippa, and Carol more than either of them. But she said it’s true both Kate and Pippa are stuck up.
I find this so relatable. I am a lot more uptight than Meghan and would also have gone into this situation knowing more about protocol, etiquette, etc. But I really would have assumed that behind closed doors, when it’s just the family, they drop the hierarchical deference and act casual and familiar. I would have assumed I wouldn’t have to formally greet my fiancé’s grandmother with a curtsy if in private. It seems poisonous to keep these sort of hierarchies and demands for deference up among family.
The mental gymnastics going on to Justified Kate and William poor behavior is unbelievable they were Guests at Harry home . Meghan was welcome them in the most friendly way possible william and especially Kate though Meghan should be honor to be in their presence but instead of treating them like they are god Meghan mistake was treating like them like normal every day people . They were standoffs and rude from the very beginning they want to make Meghan as uncomfortable as possible. The simple fact two 40 years old behaved like a bunch of racist who didn’t want to be hug by Meghan because she is black but have no problem hugging completely totally stranger during their walkabout while Covid is going on . William and Kate continues to show people who they really are and they are still people refusing to see it they are two entitled spoiled unkind evil racist people who think that their better than everyone else especially black peoples .
ITA. WRT Kate’s behavior, it is said that those that marry into wealth and prestige become more grand, more pompous than those already there. Grand becomes grandiose.
I’m sure that Kate has had a tough time becoming part of the royal family, and was extremely put out that Meghan didn’t seem to be as overwhelmed as she was. Rather than sympathize, I think she channelled her anger into “how dare she be so comfortable straight off the bat, especially being black, she has no right”. I suspect she was also put out that Megan made herself at home at Harry’s home, not acting like a guest. How dare she presume!
It’s jealousy, plain and simple. She is so insecure. As said in other posts, there is no ‘there’ there. Kate has no accomplishments, speaks atrociously and can’t do public speaking, seems badly educated, and doesn’t appear to have a thought in her head. She is unbelievably unkind . All she has is her position and the respect that goes with it. And the money. Meghan is a threat and shows how badly Kate does her job. Any woman who captured Harry’s heart was going to be the enemy but the fact that it’s a biracial woman adds insult to injury for Kate. Karma is a bitch and it’s coming for Kate.
She was thrown off guard b/c Eugenie had been so nice to her. The coolness isn’t necessarily an English thing, but it is definitely a William (and thus his adjacents) thing.
I’m a Northeast girl, I’m a lot more uptight than California Meghan lol. I’d definitely dress up when meeting an SO’s family for the first time (especially if they were known to be in a high social class or a bit stuffy). I think Meghan is super intelligent and socially aware, so I find this scenario a bit weird — why didn’t Harry tell her they had sticks up their butts and she’d have to be a bit less casual around them? There are several moments throughout their early relationship that I don’t understand why he didn’t talk to her or prepare her more. Outsiders don’t know the internal protocols of the BRF!
The only thing I can think is that as a family they really were more casual with Harry, and when they found out he was in love with a biracial American, they became stuffy, snobby a-holes about it, so Harry was taken off-guard as well?
My guess is that Harry was probably also wearing jeans and a tshirt and was also barefoot, so Meghan just thought that was perfectly fine for this occasion. So when W&K showed up, refusing a hug, being standoff and formal and cold, and REMAINED that way throughout their relationship, it probably caught Harry off guard a lot too.
Exactly this. I don’t know if it’s that he’s just that dense, or if his hatred of his family had already started and he never really wanted her to be that close to them…
Boglet, I missed something. I’ve never concluded that Harry hates his family. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
It’s pretty clear from everything said over the years that Harry did not expect W&K to treat Megan so formally behind closed doors – or else he would have told her to put shoes on and/or change her outfit. I can believe that he might forget to say “hey my brother/sil aren’t huggers” but he would never forget to tell her to change clothes if that was “protocol.”
I DO think Harry failed at preparing her in other ways though. He clearly has a better understanding of British paps, illustrated by him failing to warn her that she shouldn’t be nice to the crowd of paps outside the flower store. Or not telling her in the beginning that whenever she eventually met the queen, she would have to curtesy. It leads me to believe that they did not talk much about his “Royal” family prior to the engagement. I imagine it is incredibly embarrassing to admit that you have to treat your grandmother as queen; even in private.
The hug would have been more appropriate at the end of a friendly evening when some bonding might have occurred. Greeting dinner guests, even family, in bare feet seems rude to me & I’m a native Californian. Some people do have a real aversion to seeing the bare feet of others. (There’s a name for it which I don’t recall.) In any case, not wearing “inside” shoes when you know your guests won’t show up barefoot seems overly casual to me unless it’s a backyard pool party.
blue, if Harry was dressed the same, would you still think this? I find it rather amusing that so many people think that a hug or bare feet are the end of the world. My personal belief is that Fails and Wails wanted her to know that they didn’t like her. What better way to do that than to look down their noses at her?
@blue, your argument seems pretty weak to me. In fact, it is weak. W&K have spent a great of amount of time at the beach and Mustique. Barefoot. H3ll, they spent time on Uncle Hooker’s & Blow yacht. Barefoot. It definitely cannot be claimed the W&K have an aversion to bare feet, can it? If you want to argue about that, then, please explain why Kate has been seen wearing sandals & open toed shoes since forever?
Now now I’m sure we all missed the pics where Kate doned herself in nothing but armour repelling all forms of affection and casualty or else anything else would be a bold face lie
As much as it pains me to be somewhat … generous? fair?… to William, I wouldn’t expose my informal self to someone not in my inner circle, especially not when I have hinged my public persona on a lie of rock-solid family bliss with a wife I privately loathe. I mean, that whole family trades on constantly selling each other out. It would amaze me if any of them ever let their guard down.
To the non-huggers, the onus is really on you to make sure people don’t hug you or lean in for a bisous. Please accept that in many cultures it is the norm in to greet people in some way aside from a wave and a hello. If that’s all you want to do, please make this clear. Meghan did nothing wrong by hugging someone. She didn’t cop a feel, she wasn’t violating anyone’s personal space.
Next, Meghan showed us why the Wales’ will NEVER live up to Diana’s legacy. Diana hugged a child with AIDS and these two cannot even hug their brother’s girlfriend during a homemade dinner at her home? Diana would NEVER. They are not authentic. Everything about them is PR. Any “warmth” they pretend to give in public clearly does not translate to the most basic of private family events between peers.
“To the non-huggers, the onus is really on you to make sure people don’t hug you or lean in for a bisous.”
Really? Really??!! I’m actually genuinely shocked by this. Surely the onus is on the hugger to read people’s body-language & not invade their personal space, which an unwanted hug ABSOLUTELY does. Consent, people.
If you communicate you do not want to be hugged and you get hugged anyways, then perhaps there was a problem. But I wish we weren’t talking about consent around a hug. Like…if it’s that bad, step away. No one is going to chase you down for a hug. At that point it’s assault and we’re not even in the same realm of things.
Even implying that Meghan should have sought consent before giving a hug to people who seem perfectly fine hugging strangers for photos and videos seems bizarre to me, but go off.
This is the most offensive comment I’ve seen on this site. This is frat boy thinking. The onus isn’t on the person being done to, it’s on the person doing. Look for enthusiastic consent before hugging people or else acknowledge that you’re eventually going to violate someone’s boundaries and bodily autonomy. Unwanted touching is bad. Many “cultural norms” are inexcusable.
It’s not frat boy thinking. Telling someone “Sorry, I don’t do hugs.” is pretty simple. Being appalled that someone hugged you (and yes, we’re still talking about hugs) is weird.
No it truly isn’t!!! It is on you to respect and ask for consent before you freaking touch me or anyone else. It is ON YOU TO RESPECT BOUNDARIES.
Coming from a bicultural family, I can say hugging is more American. It’s also very Spanish, I lived in Spain and Spaniards are all about being up in each other’s physical space. Not all Americans give or like receiving hugs but my French side of the family NEVER hugs. I have never seen any member of that side of the family in the 34 years of going to France hug. They do la bise (kiss on each cheek) which I always hated due to the cheek skin to skin contact. I was recently there for my grandfather’s funeral and as my dad had COVID, I was excused from la bise and I think it’s more on hold now. I don’t hug people if it’s the first time I’m meeting them but I definitely hug close friends and family.
That’s so interesting. To me, that kiss thing seems more familiar than a friendly hug. When I did my year abroad in France found it a bit jarring at first, but then me and my friends started doing it back in the states, lol-so pretentious. I don’t do it now but can appreciate it.
I spent all my childhood summers in Spain, have family there and hugging is definitely not the norm with any Spaniards I know. I hate hugging strangers and find it intrusive so my sympathies are with Kate and William. I also think a certain formality is to be expected from people who are famous and wary of newcomers who might talk to the press about them. In either case they’re just very different and I don’t see any moral superiority in either way of being.
Any 40 somethings here feel like this is a repeat of Charles vs Andrew and Fergie back in the 80s? Charles was like this towards Fergie back in the day wasnt he?
Anne complained about Charles being too formal and stiff when he went to her birthday party at her house.
Jeanette, I think it was more than just Charles. As much as Diana didn’t stand a chance once they realized she wouldn’t be a doormat, I don’t think Fergie was given five minutes of acceptance.
Old enough to remember Fergie’s early days. She was accepted, if not welcomed, by the family – she was royal adjacent as her father was Charles’s polo manager and was brought in pre-marriage to keep Diana company. Her Maj said words to the effect that it’s so nice to have a daughter-in-law I can get on with.
All was fine up until the press turned on her. Except for her Private Secretary Sir Robert (now Baron) Fellowes – he loathed her father so he took it out on her.
Rumour has it that Philip had an affair with Fergie’s mother.
Yup. And even if she hadn’t hugged them, they would have found something else to complain about. The two couples are so different, I couldn’t help but cringe while watching them do their Fab Four panel discussion. It was awkward at the time and is still extremely awkward. They just…have nothing in common. At all. And they couldn’t even fake it.
Also: imagine the look on Wiglet’s face when a barefoot peasant like Meghan tried to hug her. LMAO.
I’m sure Meghan being biracial had nothing to do with it…nothing at all, really….nothing. No racism here!
Perhaps that’s why she doesn’t like to hug — she’s worried that physical contact might accidentally knock off or pull out the wiglets?
I need to take time out of my day to say one thing: they both wear wiglets. Meghan’s is usually well-hidden so you can’t see it, but during the program I noticed it many times. 98% of women over 40 with super thick, luxurious, long hair are not sporting their own hair. And WHO CARES? Society demands so much of public women. The “wiglet” commentary on this site seems anti-feminist to me.
Lordy. The wiglet issue has more to do with the fact that Kate had KP issue an official denial of wearing a hair piece. Then, she was somehow incapable of having KP issue a denial that Meghan made her cry. All of the sudden, she lost agency whereas before she clearly had it, at least so far as the wiglet was concerned. Cannot speak for everyone on this site, but that is the biggest issue for me. As far as I know, Meghan has never had her staff put out a press release about whether she wears extensions or not. I’m not good at telling those things, so if she does, it looks damn good. And she has never ever officially claimed that she does not as opposed to the other one. Letting the misogynoir trope of the angry black woman making the white woman cry take over the male-owned tabloids and doing nothing about it seems anti-feminist to me. Literally, she could have stated no one cried without incriminating herself.
Ahhhh. Got it.
I wouldn’t care if Kate wore a wiglet, except that she lied about it, which is saying I am blind and/or dumb? But it wasn’t just that she lied, it’s that the palace felt the subject was sooooo important that they publicly denied it (what happened to “never complain, never explain”? Guess that was a lie too). Why did Kate and the palace make a wiglet so important? Because they only care about Kate’s superficial appearance, that’s the only thing about her that matters. And THAT is anti- feminist.
Nothing wrong with wearing wigs or pieces, the commentary here is usually on how utterly terrible they look. She literally could hire an Instagram stylist or watch a YouTube video of women installing lacefronts and v part wigs that look 1000% better. Also, she makes much hay out of her long, luxurious hair and gets upset when people point out that she has enhancements, so criticism is fair. Meghan clearly has extensions in some cases, but they are well blended, match her hair texture and tone, and she doesn’t pretend it’s all her hair, and how dare you question her, and we’ll have an article in a newspaper insisting it is her hair. Criticism of a woman pretending one thing and taking great umbrage at you pointing out its false is not anti-feminist.
Also Kate’s wiglet just looks bad so it’s a joke to pretend that it’s all her own hair. The media still pretends that she has this great mane and it really has looked bad, especially in the last few years.
Meghan doesn’t have hundreds of articles going on about her luscious locks and how it’s all real.
Well when you her mother Carole’s hair you can see how Kate’s hair would be without wiglets. I have seen pictures of Kate with no makeup and no wiglets. Her hair is thin and dead straight. Her hairdresser is a magician.
But William has complained that Kate’s hair is usually the reason they run late.
It is one hundred percent wrong to wear human hair because of how it is acquired (only a minority of hair originates from temple donations) and eventually processed.
Regardless who wears it.
This type of thing proves that Will and Kate’s wanting people to think they’re normal, is b.s. And I don’t mean their *actually* being normal is b.s., because that is so obvious. I mean their wanting to be SEEN as normal is b.s. They are much too arrogant for that. What they want is for people to see them as very superior beings making the effort to lower themselves so as to appear normal. And we’re supposed to thank them for their efforts, while never forgetting their are so superior.
It also shows what contempt they have for actual normal people. I never understood how the British public could support a family that looks down on and despises them. Different culture, I guess?
Kate, by that stage, had already introduced Harry to a few women she considered suitable ie women she could dominate easily and keep her place as Queen Bee. She was suddenly faced with a strong, independent woman with one or two achievements under her belt, and a bank account with money she had earned herself, through her career. Kate must have been utterly baffled by such a creature!
I think Kate and her mother tried to match up Harry with Pippa. So much so that Harry had to issue a public denial (which must have annoyed Kate and Carole). Harry had serious relationships for most of the time William was involved and later married to Kate. Chelsy Davy was a long term girlfriend, I think Kate did not help her feel welcome, allegedly telling her to expect cheating. Then Cressida, who is half sister to Isabella Calthorpe, that William wanted to date and she turned him down. I doubt Kate would have liked Cressida marrying Harry since it would mean Isabella would come to visit from time to time.
Harry was dating Chelsy before Kate was a public long term girlfriend. Plus Chelsy was there when William has dumped Kate and so she was with William and Harry in the main area at the Diana concert, while Kate was there but not with William. So Chelsy was more comfortable and kate couldn’t boss her around because her position was not certain during a lot of that time Harry was with Chelsy. She still pulled that cheating nonsense but Chelsy left because she didn’t want the media glare and she came from enough money she didn’t need to put up with that.
Kate did not want Cressida for Harry because of the Isabella connection. I think Eugenie deliberately set Cressida up with Harry to annoy Kate. I am sure that Kate was pleased when the relationship collapsed but she didn’t know that the next woman in Harry’s life was going to completely outshine her forever.
Loki…. thank you
The thought I had about this dinner where she met them in bare feet and tried to hug them is that people usually prep their partners when they first meet family if there’s some need for it, so even Harry must have thought Peg and Buttons would love Meghan in her warm open authenticity. This was maybe a rude awakening for Harry that his feeling that he didn’t have to be formal with his brother and SIL was either not reciprocated or had been withdrawn by them.
I bet William thought Meghan would curtsy to him/them, and Kate desperately WANTED her to. 😂🤣😂 When M acted like a normal person instead, they knew they had to knock her down.
I don’t understand how not hugging when being introduced is an inditement on someone’s personality. Some people are just more comfortable with physical contact than others. Especially meeting someone for the first time, I think it’s a bit understandable they were more reserved – they didn’t know they were going to get married, you’re meeting your Brother/Brother-In-Law’s girlfriend for the first time, you’re wary because of press intrusion into your family’s life and are trying to suss out this person’s intentions. Many sisters are cold to brothers girlfriends upon first meeting. It’s not that uncommon.
Because this thread is not about “Some people.” Its about billy and kitty being antisocial and rejecting M’s attempt to greet them.
So go ahead and explain why theyre both now busily hugging every black person they can find on their walkabouts.
Methinks it has something to do with their campaign to ‘prove’ that theyre “very much not a racist family.
I think obviously their public/professional personas as of late have been a direct reaction to allegations of racism.
I just don’t get how not hugging equates to being antisocial.
I feel M often leaves gray areas for speculation which benefit her narrative.
She said the thing about hugging and then immediately went into the bit about how formal the family is behind closed doors. The gray area is basically so KP doesn’t send even more deranged bots after her and she doesn’t get more death threats, IMO.
She lays out the narrative very clearly here. W&K are very formal and stuffy behind closed doors (at least when she was around.) This fits considering we’ve heard that Kate’s family referred to her as The Duchess for years.
Boglet, you’re working really, really hard to make people change their mind. Is there anyone in the world who should be condemned for life for bare feet and a hug? The entire point of this story is to say that the brf are NOT family in an accepted sense of the word. They are a bunch of entitled, cold and selfish people. This story was an ILLUSTRATION only and not the whole story.
I understand that the british tabloid media wants to find anything and everything they can to pillory Meghan. I expect them to not make any sense. But when people here are trying to make this a horrible thing that Meghan did? Come on.
You should probably check out some of the Kate fan pages because ironically they are very upset that Meghan implied Kate was “cold” and are digging up tons of examples of her hugging strangers.
“It’s not that uncommon” to be rude and cold? Okay. If my boyfriend’s sister acted coldly toward me when she first met me, I’d think there was some kind of Folgers Christmas commercial situation going on. If it was his sister-in-law, and that sister-in-law had been photographed obviously wanting to lick him in public on numerous occasions… well I have no idea how I’d act, but if the worst that could be said of me was “awkward,” I’d think I’d done well.
@Boglet, Kate isn’t Harry’s sister. At all. She’s his sister in law. That’s it. Regardless, how the BM/BRF machines put things out.
May every attempted hug towards u make u feel unloved
Maybe it’s because I’m from the south and grew up a poor peasant, but I really don’t understand the problem with being barefoot. Like, M&H made it sound like Harry’s sibling just stopped by while she was cooking dinner 🤷♀️. I would never think to put on shoes when family (or husband’s family) was stopping by.
titus pullo, it has nothing to do with being a poor peasant. People are focusing on the wrong issue and I rather think they are doing it deliberately. You and I would get along well–I’d ask if I could take my shoes off, too!!
I never wear shoes at home. I kick them off at the door and it’s barefoot pretty much all year round, inc coldest of winter. I hate anything on my feet. I just can’t relax in my home with shoes on. Family and friends never comment, apart from “aren’t you cold…”!!
Where I come from — Great Lakes region, USA — it’s considered somewhat rude for guests to keep their shoes *on*, unless it’s some kind of formal situation. The problem isn’t that Meghan wasn’t wearing shoes. The problem is that Will and Kate didn’t remove theirs.
Right, they were the ones likely tracking dirt in the house.
@Emily_C, yes the guests should have taken the disposition of their hosts. Maybe it my Americanism.lol When my husband and I go to casual parties, we ask, shoes on or off in your house. Whatever the hosts prefer is what is done. The hosts set the tone of the guests regardless of some bs status. Meghan was being casual cool for the situation. It wasn’t some effin state dinner.
Bet Kate came in a coat dress lol
Moving on from hug gate! Actually, it is linked. Meghan said on the programme that there isn’t any training for the role and there was no one to help with the royal ways and she at one point used google. But wasn’t the excuse for Kate’s absolute laziness during her early/mid married life that she was, in fact, being taught everything that goes into the job, down to etiquette etc. This has been the excuse for years. So, in a round about way, Kate has been exposed for doing bugger all for those early years before “coming into her own”.
From what I recall, it 100% was reported that Kate underwent etiquette training (whether true or not), and while that was never offered to Meghan, she did do security training where they subjected her to a fake kidnapping, among other things. IMO that was just another way to try and scare Meghan away – none of the fun tiara or tea party training, all of the bag over your head get in the trunk of the car training.
I read that Meghan got security training, but she said she never did- in the Opera interview, I believe. I’m getting the impression that Meghan got nothing- they just treated her as totally unimportant.
Meghan was never offered security training. Another fake story in the tabloids.
In episode 1 of the great documentary “The Crown” one of the things that stood out to me was how Elizabeth’s father failed to train her for the job of monarch. Anne, Charles, Edward have all said that there is not training for being a working royal. I think the married in could use guidance and actual training.
Well, if they had an actual training, they couldn’t continue to use ephemeral protocol rules to demean and put someone in their place.
I loved this. News flash! Wills and K are cold, formal, unemotional people behind closed doors too!
And racist as hell.
I bet after Meg gave willy and Katie that hug she felt instantly cold, hugging those two is probably similar to hugging the iceberg that the titanic hit
And yet when they visit the Middletons I bet it is all huggy-kissy and informal….
Old Saying: “it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and erase all doubt.”
dimbulb, which couple is this directed?
That Meghan declared herself to be ‘a hugger’ and could admit it could be off putting to some, that she made a point of her being informal/dressed down/barefoot in that moment has become the shiny object.
Meghan, in her polite, self deprecating conversational tone announced to the world in H & her Netflix doc that W&K,
DID NOT WELCOME HER WITH OPEN ARMS
and maintained that formality in their private interactions with her.
If there’s so many problems between Meg and Kate then why would Meg want Kate on her podcast?
Who said she did? LOL.
It is because she does not.
JFC!
Look everyone ^ a britshidtrag shidteater. Are you lost?
Kate will only end up on that podcast if she shows up to apologize for lying about crygate. I.e. never.
@crib, 😂😆😂😆😂 Surely you jest! Is this an attempt at comedy? Because it was hilarious.
Imagine Mumbles attempting to do whatever passes for her speaking on any podcast. She wouldn’t even be able to articulate coherently from cue cards, much less to deliver a 2-3 minute answer to any question.
But hey, that would be entertaining as all get out!
@crib, are you ‘Richard’ from James O’Brien’s show? LOL comment. Meghan wanted Kate on the podcast as much as James O’Brien ate a kebab while wearing a mask.
Name the source – ur gut does not count
I have no idea why people are picking apart the ” hug” part when the point of this story was to show that Meghan and Harry were already on couple mode when she met his brother , and that from the get go, things were not going as well as they expected.
Mind you, most people walk barefoot and in comforatble clothes at home. Will and Kate dropped by just to meet her, which also indicates THIS WAS AN SPONTANEOUS THING. It is not like they have booked a table at a restaurant- no, this is your boyfriend´s brother just dropping by!
I am not a huger myself, but in this context, I would too assume this to be a comfortable, intimate, familiar ocasion where I was allowed to e myself and, even if I did something wrong, to be , you know, put at ease? Unexpcted hugs are awkward and where there is good will, one usually comments something like ” Oh, you are sweet, I am so not used to!” and move on?
Also, Meghan is looking back at it and saying ” in retrospect, if I failed by being too open, they failed by being too closed.”
The second point people are missing: Meghan had already met some RF members and had been welcomed. She makes sure to say she had a great time with Prince Philip and loved speding Xmas. This is to say THE WHOLE FAMILY BUT WILLIAM AND KATE are formal when on duty, but were warm and open to her behind closed doors…
In short: even The Queen was not demanding meghan to be deferential at all times like William and Kate did.
Meghan is not only American she’s a California American. If she was from a rich old money, old family, east coast American who is more reserve the difference would not have been so jarring.
Also, Harry knows what his family is like so he should have warned her. Tell Meghan to put on a coat dress with as many buttons as possible and towering high heels to have dinner in her own home.
The one thing I have in common with Kate is the we’re both Capricorns, a sign that tends to be conservative by nature. I would not hug someone I’m meeting for the first time. I’m no fan of Kate but I get it in this one instance.
Number of days worked:
Kate: 2018 (87). 2019 (116)
Meghan: 2018 (96). 2019 (83)
“Work” as in……….?
PS: Does that notion of “work” have measurable outcomes?
PPS: M officially joined the “family” as in, got married to H, in May, 2018. So thats when her 2018 work activity count should begin. Even tho from she became engaged she began the groundwork for her future activities as a “working royal.”
Their respective maternity leaves cut down on their work numbers
Has kate ever filed a tax return?
Let’s play that game.
OMG the Kate stans/trolls are trying it again. And failing. You don’t even know enough to know that the BRF does not count days worked, they count engagements. Could be five a day, etc. No playing the false Malta card, that was sheer BS. It was W&K refusing to work, even while Philip was publicly begging them to. Let’s look at the REAL comparable numbers.
Kate’s first two years as a royal. After engagement was announced she did 5 events before the wedding. In her first year she did 34 engagements. In her second year she did 111, because of the padding of ‘engagements’ filled with Jubilee celebrations and their foreign HoliTours.
Meghan. After engagement was announced she did 40 events BEFORE the wedding. In her first year, which started right after their wedding in May, she did another 96 events. Second year while expecting, fighting off her racist bitch of a SIL, and being suicidal? She did 83 engagements. That didn’t count all of her work with SmartWorks, multiple Hubb kitchen meetings, all the work with the publishers to publish that book. None of that was counted. And those engagements were the ones people were able to track, because for the first two years the racist royal staff weren’t even listing her engagements in the official Court Circular. Tim O’Donovan had to do all the work.
Define meticulously what Kate’s work entails and pls don’t saying hugs and ribbon cutting
Hug-gate reminds me of the scene in The Crown where the Queen recounting a meeting between herself and Diana where Diana hugged her and it just made her recoil. Harry is a hugger- he has said so himself. It’s hard to imagine that introducing the love of his life to Will and Kate would be anything less than a warm occasion. Well, I guess he found out. I bet Kate and Will have surprised Harry shocked Harry by the way they’ve treated Meghan.
I don’t know where the right place would be to ask it, so I go with the most active thread. What happened to Meghan’s dog that he ended up with two broken legs…? Was that ever commented?
I sincerely hope we’ll find out in Volume 2.
PS: They laid the groundwork in Vol. 1 for several stories for which we will get the denouement in Vol 2.
I don’t think the hugging thing is unique to Meg and Kate’s first meeting. All of us that are huggers encounter this stiffness on occasion. Not being huggers is part of this particular family in GB that has carried out a centuries long game of make believe.
Hug gate reminds of the snarky, animated series, ‘the Prince’ where Will and Kate would have their dresser or lord and lady in waiting exchange blows on their behalf. Hug gate is like something out of the Onion. (Makes me wonder how Charles got so creative with the tampon thing. I mean these royals have sex with each other, right?! Or is there a protocol where royal coitus must last x seconds etc.)
I am laughing because Brits pride themselves on “keep calm and carry on” and avoiding getting their knickers in a twist. Well it sure doesn’t take much to ruffle their feathers. Who knew!
Look whether you are a hugger or not, it’s really not a big deal with new family members to do the nice thing and give people a bit of slack. It’s about keeping the peace and showing a bit of emotional intelligence instead of being petty and holding grudges.
Hug gate is turning into another oh no, she’s wearing black nail polish, or not wearing hosiery on a hot day or gasp, holding that baby bump while eating avocado on toast.
You can hear the shattering of British royal protocols around the world. Hahahaha!
I guess my one issue is that she wore ripped jeans and was barefoot hosting dinner for William and Kate, when it was her first time meeting her and she didn’t really know Will.
I’m very much a barefoot, ripped jeans girl. In fact, I am wearing ripped jeans and I’m barefoot as I type. But if I were meeting my SIL for the first time and was hosting a dinner for my husband’s family to get to know them I would never wear ripped jeans and no shoes. It seems too casual, and I can see why they might feel kind of like she couldn’t be bothered putting in effort and how they might see it as disrespectful. I can see how her they could misconstrue her casualness for rudeness.
I’m not saying she needed to wear formal clothes, but wearing a smarter pair of jeans and even just some converse sneakers or something would have been preferable.
Having said that, I’m 100% sure that they were always going to take offense at one thing or another. William is racist and awful so she never had a chance with him, and Kate was probably immediately jealous of her beauty and charisma and how she drew Harry away from her.
I guess that’s literally the only thing where I can see why they might have some grounds to be a little offended. It’s a ridiculous thing to hold a grudge over though, especially after they got to know her and would have realised (if they gave her a chance, which they didn’t) it wasn’t an intentional sleight and she’s just a very informal, causal kind of person.
ETA: I didn’t realise it was spontaneous. I think I still would have thrown on something nicer once it was clear they were having dinner, but it’s even less of a big deal knowing that. Ridiculous. Also, I hate being hugged by strangers but I never hold that against a hugger. They’re just being warm and I can be an adult and accept the hug.
Whereas I think leaving your shoes on in someone’s house, unless it’s a formal situation, is rude.
I never wear shoes in my house, and I have a basket by the front door for guests to leave theirs. My daughter is the same. It keeps the floors cleaner and makes your guests feel like they can be comfortable and stay a while.
It’s interesting – my parents’ and grandparents’ generation would never have thought of taking their shoes off in their or anyone else’s house. At most they’d exchange outside shoes for slippers *in their own home*. Anyone taking shoes off would have been met with raised eyebrows.
In my childhood barefoot was only if you’d just come in from the pool, and you were usually expected to wear thongs.
I didn’t encounter shoes-off households until my late twenties.
Interesting how different standards and expectations are.
This entire conversation, and the comments, has blown my mind. Well done, British media, you completely changed the conversation.
Yep
“There is a forward-facing way of being and then you close the door and you relax now,” she added about how she expected the etiquette to be left at the door once the work day had finished. “But that formality carries over on both sides. And that was surprising to me.”
This is the takeaway. Everything else—hugging, not hugging, preparation, no preparation, shoes, no shoes—is just noise.
Sigh…where to begin:
For all the “Harry should have prepared her” folks – do you think that Harry could have ever FATHOMED in his wildest imagination, that his brother and sil would f*cking literally wage war (let’s call it for what it is) against his wife and children, that Wills would allow his staff (Knauf) to side with the same trash media that ended Diana, to now hurt Harry’s wife??
Because you’re all missing the point. Harry could never have prepared Meghan, because he probably didn’t really how monstrous, how f*cking evil, his family is. He knows now.
Their documentary is historic, took courage and is poignant. They included their children because it is a tribute to them as well, and their children’s children..
Harry and Meghan know the reach of the BRF, know the danger. We all know it was never about the hug, the curtsy, the “fill in the blank…”
I keep them in my prayers.
Since W&K pretend to be diplomats and brag about being statespeople, they should be prepared to handle any situation from any culture whether it is hugging, bare feet inside (many cultures), air kissing, whatever.
The funny thing about this is, that I remember very clearly what a down to earth commoner Kate was supposed to be when she married in.
I blame Harry for a lot of the difficulties Meghan had in the beginning, he should have told her how his family really was from day one and all the protocols etc, he reacted only when things got out of hand
The “protocols” were made up, and he didn’t know how his family really was. He hadn’t been around them all that much. But also, they didn’t reveal themselves until Meghan came into the picture.
When someone’s been abused their whole life, it’s hard to see the abuse for what it is. Harry thought his family would welcome Meghan. He didn’t expect they’d try to break up his marriage, and break her. I’ve experienced something similar, though in my case it was my father trying to break up my marriage. It was completely unexpected. In hindsight, I can see there were clues — but people don’t live their lives like Sherlock Holmes, constantly looking for clues of something terrible.
Really good point Emily C. Harry was like the fish that asks “what’s water?” He was around it so much it took an outsider to help him break out of the groupthink. No wonder he had mental health problems in that family for so long. Such cognitive dissonance
Things were out of hand imo from the first. The media wrote negative stories and the senior members of the royal family did nothing to stop it.
The idea of a future brother and sister in law of Meghan pulling rank is offensive on many levels imo
Especially since they were guests in what was essentially Harry and Meghan’s home at that point.
to me this little vignette is the whole story. W&K are two stuffy, uptight snobs and were neither warm nor welcoming to Meghan either as a person or as Harry’s choice. “That formality carried over” meaning that they were cold and standoffish to her from the start.
Kate has essentially erased herself-literally as well as figuratively-to become what she thinks royalty should be. William is his father’s son, but without C’s commitment to service. All the emotional constipation, entitlement and grievances, if anything, magnified.
Along comes Meghan, warm, effervescent, obviously excited and a bit nervous to meet her lover’s brother-and bringing her A game-imagine what it must have been like spending an hour with these 2 vapid, gormless tw*ts.
and FWFW, I *NEVER* wear shoes in my house, absolutely never.
Me too. I was raised not wearing shoes in the house. I was raised in New York City and my parents felt this was a more sanitary way to live.
I don’t like how people are blaming Harry for his family’s poor actions.
Harry truly believed Meghan would be welcomed into the family and he was so excited. During an interview after they got engaged (I think) he went on about how she was going to have a huge family Christmas for the first time and they were both so looking forward to it. I’m sure he talked about his family quite a lot and she knew what to expect. If she had been white or not a serious gf which would compete with Kate.
Harry’s expectations turned out to be wrong. He didn’t foresee his family’s actions and reactions to his wife and then his wife and child.
I don’t think it’s a matter of him being scared she would run or leave him. They are devoted to each other. I’m sure he gave her everything he thought she would need in dealing with them. What he didn’t expect was that nothing she would do would ever be right or good enough and that protocol would be singularly weaponized against her.
As for not teaching her to cutesy – it was a surprise meeting with the queen. There have been plenty of times when we all have been left a little flat footed when it comes to certain things – I’m sure they thought she would learn it when she needed to etc and didn’t expect her to need to learn it on the fly. But Meghan being Meghan she handled it well and beautifully.
Also – and I don’t know why I need to point this out – Meghan is an extremely cultured, well traveled and intelligent woman. She’s met Presidents and prime
Ministers. Harry had nothing to worry about when it came to her behavior. She a master class in well… class.
She took her lead from Harry in regards to formality around his family. Which makes it abundantly clear that until this moment in time W&K were fine with Harry as he is. Meghan was the new variable and one that they were determined to find fault with from the beginning.
Harry did everything he could to set her up for success with his family. Why would he do anything else. It was his family that latched onto a new scapegoat and were determined to undermine and hate Meghan for everything good that she is.
Lastly – it does sound like they just showed up at her house. In which case, you show up you get me how I am. That’s basic common sense. If I realize you are here to stay a while, I might run upstairs and brush my teeth or something but hey. You showed up. This is on you.
Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if W&K showed up to create a power imbalance Meghan running around trying to get the house company ready and taken down a few pegs. Instead she warmly welcomed her soon to be family members into her home – stop harping on a singular hug, it’s so ridiculous – and in her bare feet and jeans.
Even if they were invited – many crappy people show up beyond early. The kind ones do it to help. The others ….. do it as passive aggressive bs. Which is basically W&K’s entire personality in a nut shell.
I can just see it. Harry holding the door going “You’re early. Come on in!” And Meghan saying hi! It’s so good to see you! And giving them both a hug and walking them into the kitchen or family room.
@Susan, you nailed it. I also have been thinking about that little “vignette”, that is what keeps coming back to me. And I get everyone who says, “I’m not a hugger, especially not someone I don’t know”. (I personally am, but this is not about me.) The thing is, Meghan is not stupid, anything but, and everything I have seen and heard, she turned herself inside out to try to please “them”, not knowing at first that she couldn’t. She can read a room, and is very delicate in public relations. But you don’t know someone until you know them, people judge others by who they themselves are. How was she supposed to know that the brother of her darling Harry was not at all like him, not loving and warm and welcoming. You don’t know till you know. I don’t think she was inappropriate. Especially in Europe, but in the States, too, some people kiss on the cheek upon first meeting, especially family members. Many people welcome an incoming family member with open arms, with love, with a kiss on the cheek or a hug. I really wonder if this is not code for something else. M&H have certainly gone over everything with their lawyers, and they came up with this story, which illustrates that she was not welcome, without actually saying so. I think it is very clever. I really would like to know what everyone else thinks: if this was meant to highlight something else without actually saying so. This to me is splicing open a window without actually saying so in so many words, that she thought the inside of a family would be warm and loving and full of love and support. HA!!!! Oh, well, Susan, you said it better.
They didn’t know that she was an incoming family member at that stage though, right? She was the new girlfriend.
I don’t know. I just feel like this “I’m a hugger and it turns out some other people aren’t” story is getting picked over more than it deserves.
William indicated to harry that he should slow down. So no matter what he and kate would be negative about the relationship
Harry told staff two months after meeting Meghan that they needed to prepare, she was The One. He likely informed his family at the same time, that September when he was at Balmoral with Eugenie. So no, W&K don’t get the excuse of pretending Meghan was ‘just the new girlfriend’. Harry knew she was IT from the moment they met.
Let’s be clear, Meghan wasn’t a stranger in that apartment. She’s Harry’s girlfriend, and they’re all under 40 years of age. What’s with the frigidity? Harry didn’t tell her about the anti-social protocols because he didn’t want her tainted. He loves the bright spirit that lights up the room and the kisses whenever or wherever. Love is splendor in the grass if you relax and allow it to touch you. Eugenie’s husband prefers to be in Portugal because that family is anti-social. The royalists pummeled Meghan with the “she’s an actress” gibberish. The Windsors are 100 percent performative. That’s why Charles can comfortably say, “Whatever love means,” he never felt it. When Queen Elizabeth returned after a six-month-long tour, she greeted Charles with a handshake.
The Royal wife accepts that the Royal husband doesn’t show affection publicly or behind closed doors. Therefore she never suspects he behaves any differently when away. And they can comfortably sleep in separate beds. You see how tactile they are when not in the presence of the wife, especially William. Phillip went away and never returned. Mike Tindall has roaming hands, and Andrew drools over young girls. Charles rarely showed Diana affection, but he wanted to be Camilla’s tampon. It’s a tricky form of mind manipulation. Lately, you see Kate and William attempting to be tactile. It looks like what it is, a photo op. Mothers should not allow royals to use their children. Kate wants William to hold her hand badly.
So is Kate taking on a new public persona? She was the maniacally smiling giggly princess for years. It always seemed like a mask but is she just tossing it away entirely? Very few smiles on the US trip. I guess this is more regal? Weird
Her over-the-top maniacal posing expressions were so bad on the US trip, they were mocked by a Boston journalist. No she’s not acting ‘more regal’. LOL
notasugarhere, you don’t happen to have a link for that article, do you?
I think this is the article:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/12/01/metro/princess-wales-looks-relentlessly-delighted-what-would-happen-if-you-tried-that-home/
I wonder if Kate makes her Mother curtesy to her in private?
Would you be making the same statements if Meghan had failed to learn anything about the local customs of another country before visiting? At the very least, Harry could have told her.