So, from what I’ve seen, several British tabloids are running with “Prince Harry backtracks on royal racism claims” today. This is because in Harry’s ITV interview, he was asked about the Oprah interview and the claims he and Meghan made about mystery Windsors speaking about the baby’s skin color, etc. Harry said, to Tom Bradby, that he never used the word “racism” and that he believes there is a big issue of unconscious bias in the Windsor clan.
Prince Harry has denied that he and Meghan ever accused the royal family of racism, arguing that there is a “difference between racism and unconscious bias”. In an interview with ITV News presenter Tom Bradby, Harry was asked about the couple’s sit-down with Oprah Winfrey last year.
Meghan claimed to Winfrey that when she was pregnant with Archie there were “concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he’s born”. In Sunday’s interview, Bradby said: “In the Oprah interview, you accuse members of your family of racism…”
“No,” Harry interjected. “The British press said that, right? Did Meghan ever mention ‘they’re racists’?” Bradby said: “She said there were troubling comments about Archie’s skin colour. Wouldn’t you describe that as essentially racist?”
Harry responded that he would not describe the incident as racist, “not having lived within that family”.
“The difference between racism and unconscious bias… the two things are different,” he said.
Unconscious bias is “the tendency of us as humans to act in ways that are prompted by a range of assumptions and biases that we are not aware of”, a University of Edinburgh definition says. Harry continued: “Once it’s been acknowledged or pointed out to you as an individual, otherwise an institution, that you have unconscious bias, you therefore have an opportunity to learn and grow from that… otherwise, unconscious bias then moves into the category of racism.”
Harry then referred to an incident in which Lady Susan Hussey, a member of the Buckingham Palace household, repeatedly asked black British charity boss Ngozi Fulani where she “really came from”.
“What happened to Ngozi Fulani is a very good example of the environment within the institution,” he added. Harry also said that he and Meghan “love” Lady Susan. He said: “We think she’s great. I also know that she never meant any harm at all. But the response from the British press and from people online because of the stories that they wrote was horrendous, absolutely horrendous.”
Yeah… from what I’ve seen of the ITV interview, this was the biggest head-scratcher. I think it’s important to remember that Harry tailored his answers and comments to the audience, and he knows that the British audience will react differently than an American audience. That’s the explanation I have for this mess – this is Harry soft-launching a nuanced conversation about the “bias” within British society and the British royal family, because “unconscious bias” is less incendiary than “racism.” But yeah… I think we’re past that. I think Harry should just say: these people are racist, these incidents are about race and racism.
I truly did not have Harry caping for Susan Hussey on my bingo card either, especially given that the Hussey debacle was a perfect example of the entrenched RACISM within the British monarchy. It was also yet another example of the Windsors letting a victim of racism twist in the wind (for WEEKS) while they shielded the racist, Susan Hussey. It sounds like Harry actually has more work to do if he believes Hussey is the victim here. She was not. Ngozi Fulani was punished in every way possible for simply reporting an incident of racism within the palace.
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- 81662, ABERDEEN, UNITED KINGDOM – Sunday July 29, 2012. Queen Elizabeth II, who arrived in Aberdeen on Saturday evening, made the short journey to Crathie Church for morning service today. The Queen, accompanied by her Lady-in-Waiting, Lady Susan Hussey, is staying at Craigowan Lodge on her Balmoral Estate. The Queen will be happy to relax on her Deeside estate after a punishing schedule celebrating her Diamond Jubilee events and hosting a number of receptions leading up to the start of the Olympic Games. Photograph: © Donald Stewart, PacificCoastNews.com **FEE MUST BE AGREED PRIOR TO USAGE** **E-TABLET/IPAD & MOBILE PHONE APP PUBLISHING REQUIRES ADDITIONAL FEES** LOS ANGELES OFFICE:+1 310 822 0419 LONDON OFFICE:+44 20 8090 4079,Image: 527712922, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: WORLD RIGHTS, DIRECT SALES ONLY UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE IN CAPTION – Fee Payable Upon Reproduction – For queries contact Avalon.red – sales@avalon.red London: +44 (0) 20 7421 6000 Los Angeles: +1 (310) 822 0419 Berlin: +49 (0) 30 76 212 251 Madrid: +34 91 533 4289, Model Release: no, Credit line: Donald Stewart, PacificCoastNews.com / Avalon
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- ** RIGHTS: ONLY UNITED STATES, BRAZIL, CANADA ** Windsor, UNITED KINGDOM – BGUK_1577801 – The Duke of Sussex speaking at Windsor Castle after Meghan Markle, The Duchess of Sussex gave birth to a baby boy weighing 7lbs 3oz, in Windsor, Berkshire, UK. Pictured: Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex BACKGRID USA 6 MAY 2019 USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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Well yeah, Harry is an ongoing project. You can’t just say “unconscious bias” and think a lifetime of indoctrination will magically disappear.
I watched the interview and got upset a few times. He has presented the situation in my opinion as if his family are not bad people but are only being forced into it by the British press. If they didn’t exist, they would be able to become a great family again. Sorry but that’s absolute nonsense!! These people are treacherous assholes and always will be. But he also said some good important things. Maybe it’s just a matter of talking to the British public.
But the comment about Hussey… I am very very disappointed…
If this is how Harry sees his life, then I’m not going to question it. His background and history is so bizarre and strange to me. I can relate to an incident here or there, but I have no way to develop my own narrative of what life was like for him. It’s like he landed from another planet and started telling his story in a language where the words sound the same as mine but don’t mean the same.
In the 60 Minutes interview, Harry says that without the British media, his family would probably still be a dysfunctional family, like many others, just without that added element.
I kind of understand what Harry means. I grew up in Estonia where during my childhood there were maybe 3 mixed race children in entire country all born to Estonian mothers. At that time there were no discourse about racism in our country, so I’m more likely to tell something insensitive to someone that for me sounds harmless. That doesn’t make me racist though, as I’ve never considered anyone lesser or better for their skin color. I think the older royals are all a little like that.
Harry is just not the hateful type. He is compasionate and know what is like to be served to the press, that’s why I believe he’s expresing simpathy for a woman he’s known his entire life.
I think he has also tried and tried to explain that both press and the institution are really the evil part, and of course their family is all swept on it, hence them being so disfunctional and outright assholes like William
It’s hard to admit that people you really care about are actually assholes.
This issue around semantics is perfectly illustrated in another thread (William Recoiled). Though we might be tempted to regard Henry’s nuanced semantics as cowardice or inexplicable backpedalling, I think this is a smart diplomatic move. He and Meghan have totally grasped the stakes and the strategic necessity to spare the pretty- much-(not)-racist family who, after all, embody the general mindset of White England.
It seems to me that Prince Harry has taken his counsel’s advice to mitigate his criticism towards the Royals, knowing it woyld automatically ricochet off on the English population, hurt their sense of pride, and further alienate a lot of them. Therefore, Harry refrained from speaking as a victim but instead chose to quell the Brits’ resentment to not alienate them any further: a politician is born.
I don’t begrudge him because I don’t rhink he serves his therapist that load of crap when he knows darn well his family has not learned anything since Diana’s cautionary tale, and his beloved bully brother declined to attend Lilibet’s birthday. These Royals are RACIST AS CHARGED (or not charged, who cares, as long as WE know the truth). As a spare, Henry spares them all.
Harry’s self-censorship and awkward rebranding of racism as unconscious bias testifies to a form of loyalty akin to the Stockholm Syndrom. The man needs to intensify PTSD therapy and keep alert.
He’ll then realize down the road that sparing snakes is no way to keep them from biting you. His detachment from toxic relatives is a work in progress. Poor thing is still a little bit confused and in denial that the Wailses and Charles and Camilla still mean them harm, and that Susan Hussey probably believes Meghan cannot be American. Henry’s work on himself and awareness of his surroundings is hindered by misplaced loyalty. He’s not finished yet.
I can’t agree with you more.
Jep, perfectly said!
I understand what he means. Maybe because I’m European in my roots and from a family which has its roots in the gentry (not British). The bias is unconscious while racism is a conscious act/choice. I am unconsciously biased as in I catch myself sometimes automatically thinking that someone is/does something because they are different from me. But I don’t consciously hate them or dislike them, not at all. But it shows that some time, at some point in my past environment I absorbed the idea of difference between me and some other people however no one in my family has ever spoken to me against any people. So, it is indeed unconscious because I have no control over the origin and I certainly don’t consciously allow it to flourish which I believe is what racism is. It is vile, it is a conscious choice and it is fed knowingly by the person.
That’s how I understand him and I can totally relate to his words.
perhaps this is that “soft diplomacy” we’re always hearing about. by which I mean he is attempting to be diplomatic.
I do agree that he needs to do more work. it’s only been a few years since the scales started dropping from his eyes. hopefully he will improve over time.
I imagine Meghan would have a better take. but people would really ramp up the hate if she spoke on it. they really do have to walk a tightrope.
OT: 90 minutes and counting!!!
Harry is still deeply in denial about the actual malice coming from his family. He wants to believe that it’s fear or jealousy or misunderstanding or unconscious bias and media provocations. It’s anything except malice because that would be too heartbreaking and final. That would make everything even more tragic. That would mean giving up on the dream of an extended family. Malice can be really hard to wrap your head around when it comes from a stranger much less from your oldest and closest relationships. The compassion that he’s holding on to is rooted in denial and false hope rather than an accurate understanding of their actions and motives.
👆🏻Word!
I agree with you. But he has to learn that being polite about it isn’t going to really make an impact. Call them out! Be messy! He’s wealthy enough and famous enough that he can take the pushback. They’re racist to HIS wife and kids – he’s got to set firmer boundaries.
But maybe that’s just me.
Megan, girl. You married down.
She could have found someone better than this white guy who still has blinders on about his deeply racist family ( the created the laws and set up that racially subjugated most of the world) with his own money who could afford to buy his own furniture rather than spending her cash.
Completely agree
I have always thought this. He’s no prize.
Sigh.
Harry so far as proven himself to be a good man and an ally. He has come a long way in a short time but he still has many many miles to go.
I do wonder at this point if he’s trying to back away from some of the claims simply because they have resulted in the most death threats etc. Thats the best spin I can put on it.
As for defending that horrible troll hussy or whatever her name is – she’s grandma adjacent and lord knows Harry has say … colonial sized blind spots when it comes to his grandparents.
I just don’t get it honestly. I know it’s playing out publicly and he has to be careful because again death threats etc. But as an Aries and a previous scapegoat ….. I don’t mince words about my family. I can appreciate that they are complicated nuanced people. But I also understand that they are toxic and manipulative and cruel. And I don’t care that they were born in a cult and raised that way. You are an adult. You have children. Time to think for yourself and break those cycles. The Aries in me doesn’t get it at all.
Accurate
Black Twitter was not impressed, he can’t flip flop on the biggest issue at hand.
Not to mention he made a point of saying he and Meghan ‘loved’ Susan Hussey and defended her by saying she didn’t mean it!! I was shocked by that.
This part! I got some push back on this site in the past when I have previously talked about how Harry and Meghan talk about racism poorly but frankly they do. I am glad to see more frank discussions and disagreement on this site.
You can still like them and support them and critique them when you disagree. I say this as a long time supporter of theirs, and as a Black woman who has spent years working in social justice spaces.
@handforthparish I would like to ask Meghan directly about what she feels for LSH, she may use a different term and offer a more nuanced perspective on the whole affair.
In general, I find it more meaningful and instructive to hear from Meghan on the topic of racism, and I don’t entirely appreciate Harry speaking on her behalf in this specific instance.
I agree – I suspect Meghan’s answer would have been far less naive. Ultimately Harry’s opinion of racism and the BRF is far less interesting than Meghan’s – but she couldn’t ever answer with any degree of frankness without being shot to flames
I really hope he said comments about racism in his family and hussey because he’s still naive about this. If not and he really thinks that than I would be more then disappointed.
I’m white (and it really doesn’t matter) but all about hussey, baby’s scan color,.. is RACIST!!!!
I have close friends I have had to correct more than once for sayings things they grew up hearing and saying and never gave a thought to how stereotypical the comment was until I broke it down and put it into a historical contest. We are still good friends and have gone on vacations together. The difference here is they listened and I was not told I was being oversensitive or over reacting. That would have been the end of the relationship if it had happened.
It might be that he associates LSH with the Queen, whom we know he loved very much (despite all her faults we can see from the outside looking in).
Yes, it was strange. I did not expect the “Meghan loved LSH” part at all. It still doesn’t absolve LSH; you can love someone and that someone can still be deeply problematic, a racist, and/or commit acts of racism subconsciously. I will fully admit that I have family members who believe harmful stereotypes and display appallingly insensitive behaviors when it comes to other POC. It can be unlearned but it requires deliberate, purposeful effort and reconditioning of the mind. Denial not only doesn’t help; it IS the problem.
I’m not surprised that Meghan is not the most eloquent speaker on such matters, let alone Harry. Meghan’s experience involved not being treated like a black person until she met Harry; she was white-passing and light-skinned, and people were confused by her ethnicity—that’s a different experience than people automatically putting you in a racial box and engaging with you accordingly. I feel like they are doing the work, clumsily, in accordance with their own understanding and education, and it’s okay because it’ll be a lifelong work-in-progress. It’s the same for all of us.
I, an East Asian, remember trying to relate to Liz, my black friend’s experience, by offering my own anecdotes and she firmly told me that no, my experience is not hers, that to her, I was “pretty much the same as white.” It happened in the early aughts and it took years for me to realize that the term was white-adjacent and that there IS privilege in that. There was a lot of work necessary for both of us to realize that our struggles and experiences, while different, were legitimate and legitimately our own.
I was frustrated by this as well – didn’t they recently receive an award because of their standing up against structural racism in the BRF? He’s also talked about how M’s biracial identity was “stereotyped” against her…that’s literally racism dude.
It’s a very British thing and I say that as a Brit to pretend racism is only people flinging slurs and ignore the systematic racism . We pretend we are so civilised and well mannered whole letting the tone policing and othering go by as just how people are. It’s awful
That’s a very American way of looking at racism too, hence all the hysteria about Critical Race Theory.
No, that’s what the British tabloids said was the reason.
Small point – the award was not for standing up to racism. It was for their charitable works – which include working to bring attention to racism. The BM conflated a comment Kerry Kennedy made about how brave they were to fight systemic racism in the royal family in an article about the award Archewell won for other charitable endeavors.
Having said that, I am frustrated by this view as well.
That’s my problem with Harry. It’s not racism if it’s not about his wife. The privilege is strong with this one.
I think that’s a gross over-simplification.
This is wildly unfair. Does he have blindspots? Huge. But it’s a journey and he is coming from much farther back than most people.
we are all entitled to our opinions. He defends openly racist ignorant Hussey and in the same breath condemns Jeremy Clarkson. The difference between the two? One verbally harassed Ngozi Fulani, another one verbally harassed Meghan. Fulani
has suffered horrible abuse after this incident, yet he dares to defend Hussey. Blindspots, huh? Maybe he should make another ten (or thousand) steps on his journey before opening his mouth.
We all have blind spots and it’s weird that folks would think he wouldn’t.
After hearing it straight from his own mouth (versus translations of Spare or other commentary), I have to agree.
Is Hussy a racist. Yes. But could she have been nice to Harry during his life. Yes. Could she have even been nice to Meaghan when they were together. Yes. Could she have only been nice since Meaghan was a married in royal. Yes. We don’t know what H&M’s relationship to Hussy was. You can still be a racist. But be nice to a few POC in different circumstances. My father is racist. But once a month a worker comes to the house to work on his oxygen machine. Dad knows about his kids. The guys last vacation. You would think they are good friends. My father has to see the guy each month. And has now gotten to know him. So he see’s him as a person and not just the color of his skin. We all do that.
I wish Tom had asked what he meant by the “stories are horrendous”. This was a let down from Harry in an otherwise good interview.
Yeah, I’m seeing at he’s very much in PR mode, and his overarching message he wants to get through is “royal media is a fucked up system”.
But he just did the classic politician misstep of trying to manipulate a story to fit with his overarching message that had no business being manipulated because it was a clear cut example of shitty racism and white woman tears.
Imagine Harry coming out caping for Lady Hussy more than her own godson did, just because he wants to make the media the main villain (which for a change they’re not in this story). PR misstep and even more disappointing if he whole heartedly believes it.
I couldn’t watch the iTV interview so I’m glad to see the full comments here.
I think his distinction between unconscious bias and racism is……interesting….to say the least….and flawed. But maybe its a way to dance around calling the royal family racist? Or maybe he does genuinely believe that having an unconscious bias isn’t the same as being racist?
But that unconscious bias (like assuming that a WOC can’t “really” be from England) is rooted in racism, so no, refusing to acknowledge or change your unconscious bias doesnt mean that you THEN move into racism. The bias comes from racism; racism that is so entrenched in you and in society that you don’t even realize it.
It seems clear to me that while Harry has done a LOT of work, he still needs to learn more and unpack more, and hopefully he continues to do that work.
Agreed, and UGH this is something I reall f*cking struggle with when talking to Brits. They don’t think they’re racist because they aren’t calling a black person the n*word.
Man, Harry, be better. But, I am still grateful he’s getting it all in the open. This is messy, and hopefully he takes this as a learning opportunity.
I too assume some of his comments were about framing for the audience but this is beyond messy. His instinct here to give the benefit of doubt/good will to those who are actively causing harm to people of colour is a part of the problem. The old, “Oh they didn’t mean it”. The weighing of intention versus impact here is incredibly off but is often typical when white people try to discuss racism.
I do think he has been on a learning journey and he still has a lot to learn but he deserves legit criticism for this.
I agree. I think he’s trying to make a nuanced distinction, but it falls flat. I think he’s trying to make an intention v. Impact argument, and he’s trying to say that they aren’t intentionally being racist, despite the fact that it is racist.
I haven’t watched his ITV interview but this is a step backward for him. It shows he still has a long way to go to understand racism and also to deprogram himself from his upbringing. I understand wanting to make his views palatable to his audience but it’s also a form of gaslighting on what constitutes racism. Unconscious bias is still racism.
I think he’s drawing the line between unconscious bias and racism (which I don’t agree with as noted above) because he has been very open about his own unconscious bias. It’s much easier to say “I have some unconscious biases that I didn’t realize before” than it is to say “I am a racist and I participate in and uphold a racist society and now I want to change that.”
I think he until he is able to say the latter about himself, he’s not going to be able to say it about the royal family as a whole.
So like I said, I think he still has to do a lot more work, and I hope he is doing it, and not just saying “well the press is racist and that’s bad” and not touching the rest of it.
Harry is certainly not upholding himself to be a DEI specialist, but I think he is slowly putting in the work. D&I 101 starts with acknowledging our unconscious biases and I think this is where he is. He has not reached Racism 303 as yet when he gets to the topics that really force him to think and self-reflect.
I am sure he will be schooled in this eventually. He is like a young Jedi, not yet a Master.
That is a very good point you make @Becks. It is difficult to point to others and call them racist without being willing to call yourself that too. He is indeed a work in progress and kudos to him for wanting to do the work to educate himself. Hopefully, he’ll become that Master soon @RoyalBlue.
I can see why he used unconscious bias when it came to the skin colour comment because he didn’t want the whole “Meghan called the royal family racist” to bury everything else. And while not on this site, I am seeing so many of the same people who were saying “asking about skin colour isn’t racist” now come after him for not using the word racist.
I don’t understand the Lady Hussey defence though. While it’s clear a diversity czar might have prevented this in the first place, there just isn’t any way her directed questions weren’t coming from a very classist and racist place.
Yeah, the only thing I can think here is that someone needed to explain to Hussey why that was racist–because of the unconscious bias thing, and let’s face it, she probably hadn’t experienced WHY this was racist before.
I agree. In this day and age, I don’t thing people should be excused by being labeled has having ” unconscious bias”. Relationships and interactions require us to consider the impact of our words/actions on others. If one offends, they should be corrected and apologize. No excuses.
Completely agree Becks. Unconscious bias may “feel” less heavy than racism, but racism is the chicken AND the egg. I’ve told myself and my family to please start there. Don’t mitigate the problem with easy to digest verbage for the weak. Place the conversation in everyone’s lap and force them to see the fucking problem. We’re not icing a cake here. We’re shoveling shit, and it’s a big ass barn which needs cleaning. Shovels for every pair of hands.
Responding to my own comment to say that I think he was a bit clearer about this with Strahan (at least clearer than what I’ve been able to gather without having seen the full iTV interview.)
He said the monarchy can only modernize and play a role in today’s society if it acknowledges and confronts its unconscious bias, and if it cant do that then its just racist. Basically the monarchy cannot survive without confronting the systemic racism, but he was softening it a bit.
I dont agree with the distinction he’s drawing between unconscious bias and racism as I said above (where does he think that bias comes from?) but I think he’s wording it this way both to avoid the headlines of “Harry calls monarchy racist!” and to kind of give the institution yet another chance to change (one that I think is undeserved but I can understand how he is desperate to believe that these people he grew up with and still loves can change.)
I wish he had been a little bit stronger though in talking about the deep seeded “unconscious bias” if he wants to use that term instead of calling it RACISM and how it permeates every aspect of society, from the monarchy to the press.
But maybe he’s not there yet in his understanding and knowledge of it.
I think he’s tiptoing into the room before he pulls the rope so to speak. I hope so.
I’m a POC (not black), and frankly, my family would not think that someone asking “where are you REALLY from?” is racist. They’d just take it as a person’s natural curiosity about someone else’s ethnicity/heritage. I remember having this conversation with them and having to explain to them that if the question was about ethnicity, then it could be asked in those exact words–it didn’t need to be asked in a way where it implies that Ngozi Fulani is not from Britain bc she’s black. But I can easily see the perspective of why someone would put that interaction in the category of “unconscious bias” vs. “racism”, if they are separating the two from each other, and defining racism as intentionally malicious prejudice, when it doesn’t have to be that way at all.
I think Harry is also at that point that a lot of us find ourselves in when we start trying to have these conversations with the people in our lives about these subjects. You never move forward with the idea that the people around you are bad. You try to move forward with the assumption that the people around you mean well, they just need to be informed, that’s all. Sometimes, that’s the case. A lot of times, that’s not the case at all. I’ve been in that place with people where I’ve started out with giving them the benefit of the doubt on issues like racism, but realized by the second or third conversation that it’s not just that they need to be informed–they are choosing to remain uninformed in favour of being racist. I think as Harry tries to have these conversations more and more, he’ll come away with the same inevitable conclusion about his family as well.
I think he played it safe for the UK audience and clearly knows LH better than us (interesting that William called her out straight away on her racism though – jumping on the bandwagon much???) but if anyone is in any doubt about the issue of race in British aristocracy look at the Marquis of Bath and his wife….according to his mother being cheated on multiple times was perfectly fine but marrying a WOC would ruin 400 years of bloodline 🤦♀️🤦♀️
Maybe we need a third category: conscious bias? My understanding is that by definition, “racism” is to do less with individuals and more with systems and institutions, which the monarchy is. The people within that system may be outright racists, or they may be operating from various points of bias, or working on becoming anti-racists, or be fully there. A learning curve is not made up of only the two points at either end.
Such a disappointment, and factually wrong. Harry probably cannot admit to the RACISM because then he’d have to admit that EVERYONE in his family is, including people he loved dearly, like his grandfather. And he cannot wrap his head around that. Mincing words has done him no favors.
It was disappointing and even if he and Meghan never flat out named any specific individual as racist they have hinted as much over the last couple of years. And I am curious what Meghan thinks of his comments. It would serve him well to do a round table discussion with some notable high profile individuals from the black community. Oprah, Tyler, Obama, Dr Shola etc at least to show he is indeed still trying to learn.
Yeah, that’s the most generous take I can assume too. Also speaking of ‘unconscious bias’ with regard to BRF is total crap. The monarchy *exists* on the basis of (racial) exclusion. You can’t “diversity equity inclusivity” your way into a “better” monarchy. Like, so long as the Crown has stolen jewels from former colonies and continues to not pay taxes on property, etc it’s not like making the Windsors do “unconscious bias training” a is going to do anything???
As Harry would say, “And what difference would that make?”
I’ve been wanting to add that we also cannot deny that all of these people were absolutely showing themselves during their wedding sermon as well. So many people here were trying to defend all of the facial expressions these people were making and saying it was just a difference between American and British or that someone was just too pregnant and couldn’t control themselves but I think we all know better.
I could see what he was saying about if you have unconscious bias..are aware then don’t do anything about it..it then becomes racism. It’s more digestible and allows people to not be defensive about being called racist straight away.
I also think If he had said they are racists…anything else he talked about would be completely lost like the palace, Camilla, actively leaking against him and his family. He still has some work to do but I also understand what he was doing for the audience he was speaking to.
I totally agree. I think the Uk is far behind the US in having conversations about race and racism. Had he called his family racists, that headline itself would have negated everything else he said. And the white fragility of the royal family would have completely dominated any further discussion.
He’s also doing the smart thing of removing Meghan from the discussion. The easy thing for the british media, public, and Rf to do is say “It’s all Meghan’s fault!” and she’s the one hurling “untrue accusations”.
It was a calculated move to say unconscious bias instead of racism. That shows Harry knows his audience. Don’t forget that Boris Johnson had a black man write a report saying there was no racism in the UK. That’s the intransigence the Brits are dealing with. I wouldn’t be surprised in the future if Harry said, “yeah, my family is fucking racist.” It would backfire on him greatly to say that right now.
Also, he’s protecting all the black people who would be shoved in front of the royals over the next few months to “prove” they aren’t racists. There’s a big discussion about race that needs to happen in the UK, but now isn’t the time. I think that discussion needs to happen organically from something inside the UK–the way George Floyd was a catalyst for BLM in the US (hopefully no one has to die this time).
@lanne – hard agree on all your points… based on my own experience of the UK and intimate involvement with Brits. There are a lot of white Brits who just tune out or get their backs up the second the word “racism” is mentioned. He’s broaching a difficult topic and though a bit clumsy (and obvs still learning), he was calculated in his comments.
*Your* comments always capture the nuance and complexity of these conversations.
Not having seen the ITV interview, that’s my first take on Harry’s statement too. Hussey wasn’t conscious that she was triggered by Furlani’s skin color to ask (repeatedly) where she was from. She’s not white? What foreign, exotic lands did her people come from? It did not occur to Hussey that Britain could be considered the ONLY home for a black woman. It had to be somewhere else too. Was she conscious that she would have taken a different approach with a white woman’s origins?
In his response, Harry is giving Hussey a strike to learn and get it right, BUT, if Hussey does it again, after all this exposure, then she has moved into being a racist.
H&M have shown us that they try to be compassionate and want to educate and provoke change, and a quick condemning is not how they work (except for condemning the press). The only thing is, because he knows Hussey and likes her, Harry is being very generous with her. He cannot know the inner workings of her mind and shouldn’t say for certain that Hussey didn’t know better. So yes, I understand the take that it is kind of a messy statement from him, but I also feel this is part of his code of compassionate education.
I’m going to take this as Harry wanting to give them 1) the benefit of the doubt 2) giving them a chance to do and be better. Because most white people will get their backs up and shut down if you call them racist. But MAYBE they will re-think their mindsets if it’s re-phrased as “unconscious bias”. It’s less accusatory.
That said, once your unconscious bias has been pointed out and you don’t do shit to work on it and instead seek to attack and destroy, you’re a full on card carrying RACIST.
@Snuffles, agree. With Harry speaking truth to power everywhere else, I’m taking him at face.
What is the palace/press to say? Harry is wrong that we’re not biased, we actually ARE racists?!
Big also – Harry included what is specific to him in his memoir. There’s still plenty he could say
The most generous thing I can say is that Harry is starting his journey, and has a long way to go; hopefully he will get there, but he may not.
The tricky thing is that the media treat H even acknowledging ‘unconscious bias’ as some radical left-wing woke thing, when in actuality H is not fully acknowledging the racism of the royal institution.
He still seems to want to protect his family from charges of racism (though he’s happy to state the media is racist, which is true), and has gone on record that he believes in the monarchy. He was born into the belly of the beast, so if he’s ever going to get out (psychologically) it will take a long time. At the same time, he has a public voice and is well aware of how he is using it, and I honestly wish that when it comes to these particular issues he would either speak the truth — Hussey’s behavior was racist, asking about a baby’s skin color is racist — or not speak at all. He’s using “unconscious bias” to give these people a pass.
Good thread from an Asian British professor here: https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1612370855484612610
@Naomi, we talked about this a few weeks ago on the Netflix documentary thread. I really appreciate your comments! The institution was built and is maintained by exclusion and hierarchy, and there is no good, modern version of that. In the context of the institution, Harry and Meghan are liberal outliers and the way they were treated is truly, truly terrible, but to pin any truly liberal, democratic hopes on them is disingenuous. They do some good and creative philanthropy, but it ultimately supports the status quo.
THIS.
Thank you. Especially for your final paragraph. I watched the ITV interview and was very disappointed with the unconscious bias and Hussey comments. Being concerned about a child’s skin color is racism. Saying that a racist “didn’t mean any harm” does not need to be coming out of the mouth of a white man, as further justification for those who ARE racist.
I agree he can’t quite seem to accept who and what his family is. And yeah, he still has a lot to learn.
I agree with this.
I think the main reason he couldn’t bring himself to acknowledge Lady Susan’s racism is because of her connection to his Grandmother. She was her favorite Lady in Waiting. They shared the same worldview.
Calling out Susan’s racism would mean acknowledging that his grandmother was a racist, and he not ready to do that yet.
Unconscious bias is a myth created for white comfort. The wealth that created the modern world is derived from colonialism, genocide of Indigenous peoples and enslavement of African Indigenous peoples. It is a wholly racist system we all engage with unless we take action to truly understand and dismantle racism by acting in anti-racist ways. You can’t claim to be an anti-racist or an ally if you want the monarchy or the Commonwealth to continue in any form, or claim reform is possible. These racists structures need to be completely dismantled. Harry has no authority to speak on these issues and institutions as being of any benefit at all. For him to claim so is literally reinforcing racism.
All the claps and finger snaps for this, thank you for writing this.
Eowyn, this is a perfect comment.
Yes to all this and say it louder for the people in the back!
Agreed. “Unconscious bias” is mainly used to let racists in polite society off the hook. Vocalizing your concerns about what an unborn, mixed-race baby might look like is a conscious choice to be racist. Harry needs to learn that being an anti-racist means that you recognize it and call it as it is….
*Snap* *Snap* *Snap* *Snap* *Snap*
I agree with all of this.
Yes. This. Thank you.
And yet Commonwealth nations still want a Commonwealth . They don’t want the monarch as head of state and want to be treated as equal partners. I don’t know what role Harry would have in that because he would be going as a representative of the Tory government and I hope he doesn’t want to do that. So it’s complicated and not really his responsibility to work out. It’s Charles who should be having this conversation along with the government. It’s not fair to Harry to hang this on him.
Thank you. I just rolled my eyes.
@Eowyn. +1 and Amen!
So hear me out here… And this is incredibly difficult to share as it was incredibly difficult experience. I am a woman of color, and I am married to a white man. One of my biggest supporters and persons that I looked up to was my husband‘s mom. She is fierce, strong, has raised her children independently as a single mom her whole life and also worked as a professional throughout all of this….she’s just in general someone I always looked up to. When I became pregnant with my first child one of the first things she asked me was if I thought my daughters hair was going to be “Crunchy”. When I called out that that was a deeply harmful micro aggression she was actually very shocked, had NO idea and this opened up for the first time despite my previous four year relationship with her son, an honest and candid conversation about race. I think possibly what Harry’s trying to say here is that while the comments of Lady Hussey were completely an absolutely vile and abhorrent BUT she probably in her old antiquated, out of touch, terrible environment that she lives in, actually herself did not realize how these comments were harmful. Do I think they were racist? Yes, absolutely. But I also feel like the nuanced distinction that he’s trying to make is that she did not realize (or perhaps intend) the hate that is behind racism versus her “lack of understanding” that comes from having that unconscious bias. If I had a penny for how many times I get asked almost daily where I’m “from from” I would never need to work again.
I don’t necessarily think he was making her the victim I think he was just trying to illustrate that without open conversations that promote healing, if all we are hearing is anger, cancelling and finger pointing, then not much healing, learning or reconciliation can occur.
I agree that while I was surprised to hear his comments last night… (and i watched the whole VPN facilitated interview!) it was not without an element of understanding where he was coming from too.
@HarryforLife, Thank you for sharing your experience. I have a hard time being gracious when people ask where I’m from, where was I born, why are my eyes so slanted. I’m going to think on your words a while
@Carrot: Thank you for considering
(longtime – like since 2012 -reader, first-time commenter)
Thank you for saying this. What you wrote here is exactly what I thought about his comments too.
I am not black, but I am a light-skinned brown person. Some people “read” me as white, others have assumed I am hispanic, jewish, arabic-speaking. I have been subjected to police aggression (“we dont like your kind here”) and called the n-word… once when i moved my seat on the subway to sit next to my at-the-time boyfriend a total stranger loudly accused me of white privilege and racism because they assumed I was moving because the other stranger sitting next to me was black. (Oddly, the man next to me defended me, when I was too startled/shocked to speak up for myself. He was incredibly kind. More than the boyfriend, who yes turned out to be a jerk.)
My point is – I know a lot about bias, from personal experience. I agree with Harry … there is a difference between a person demonstrating active racism vs demonstrating unconscious bias – where, out ignorance, a person makes racist assumptions based on the racist systems and structures in which they live. Those racist assumptions can still do much harm, so I dont think people deserve a pass. But I do think we should acknowledge our own and other people’s humanity, by respecting the distinction between someone who may not intend to do harm (out of ignorance… you can usually tell because they are genuinely, totally oblivious to the idea that their assumption even is one… they think its reality) vs someone who intends harm, whether they admit that or try to minimize/deflect/justify/etc.
I don’t know what Harry was thinking. But at the time of the story, I myself thought that Camilla was feeding Susan Hussey to the press wolves. I totally agree that SH’s actions were racist. And that NF deserves support from the whole world, her treatment by her fellow brits was/is an utter disgrace. Re SH’s intent, I find it hard to believe she hasnt had the opportunity to educate herself. But I am open to the idea that thats what Harry is saying… the institution is really, truly that backward.
(one last comment … I think we all have unconscious bias. In retrospect, I can see it in myself even. I work hard to learn and improve, but I will never be perfect. None of us are… at least, thats what i believe.)
@Julesy: Deeply and truly appreciate this being a safe space for open and honest discourse. Indeed, I think any of us who are persons of color regardless of our background have experienced hate on many levels and sometimes that even includes people that we were considered “even our own”. I’m so sorry you had to go through these experiences too but telling that it’s so important to give a voice to a balanced view. I think very often growing up from one side I was told that I was too dark and from the other I was told I was “light”. To be clear, I am Cuban, Black, Indian who grew up in a commonwealth Caribbean island. A lot of the hate that has been thrown at Meg has a lot to do with what she herself has said has been a tough place to try and fit in and exist. There’s so many comments on Twitter from people who look like me saying that Harry should just get over it because “it’s not like he married a black woman” because Meg isn’t “even black”. Sadly, that’s not often called out and deeply damaging too…
I can’t even tell you how much of that narrative I grew up hearing my entire life and yet I have strived to keep my heart open, for my family, my mixed race babies… to continue learning and teaching and to continue to have these tough but important conversations from a place of love so that we can actually move forward.
@Harryforlife
Your comment made me choke up a bit … thank you, both for listening and sharing. Striving to keep my heart open is hard sometimes, but when we are in the middle spaces what true alternative do we have?
My ethnicity is hard to parse – Turkish/Slavic on one side of the family, Irish/British on the other. So most people think “european, stop pretending you are anything other than white.” But my Turkish/slavic family doesnt look white at all (after 9/11 my dad, brother, and I were regularly searched/detained for hours in airports) and dont think of themselves as white. They also dont consider me Turkish – I dont speak the language, I dont look like them. They are openly racist/xenophobic towards other groups although personally kind to me. My irish family are also straight up racist (n word everywhere) but genuinely kind to me sometimes, and sometimes … it was hard to process, esp as a child, why apparent compliments on my “exotic” looks and “beautiful brown skin” could feel so off-putting (not even counting the sexism of valuing girls for their looks vs achievements.)
Yet – and despite the active racism and unconscious bias I’ve experienced – I feel like a fraud when I describe myself as a light-skinned brown person (as I did in my first post) … because I am not black, or indian, or asian, or hispanic. which is what rational and well-meaning people may assume that phrase implies. And despite being targeted by police (“because I look like a gang member”, whatever that means) I am also still white-privileged…. I grew up in a white middle-class American town, with families that had some generational wealth, and who chose to come to America in the 20th century. Some people do take me for white, and while my surname is “really hard to pronounce, where are you from?” my first name is Anglo-Saxon.
At an early age, I recognized and rejected my families various forms of racism. Today our family is amazingly diverse… I have blood relatives who married black people, asian people, even high-class british people 🙂 And I learned over time that, despite my good intentions, my own ignorance still ran deep. I committed unintentional micro aggressions towards people I know, and even love dearly, without even knowing. I will always from my heart be truly grateful to those who properly called me out… And profoundly grateful to those who approached the tough conversations with kindness and grace. Which as an adult member of society I didn’t deserve, but as a human being still desperately needed. In turn I have tried to do the same for others (when it feels safe.) And tried to keep learning and challenging my own ableist, sexist, heteronormative, neurotypical assumptions.
Anyway. Sorry to ramble. But thank you. Because I have been on all sides of this, and I think we can be true to our values and push for real change while still giving overall-good-but-not-perfect people – including ourselves – room to grow and change.
Thank you for bringing some much needed nuance to this discussion. Because the fact of the matter is this: Yes, a majority of people will absolutely stop listening after you have called them or something they did racist.
That is just a fact.
Harry had the choice to feed into the press frenzy and just call his family racist. The part of the british public that thinks this is all bullshit would just continue on their merry way because obviously this is not about them. And nothing is gained in this discussion.
He opened the door to the possibility that hey, maybe YOU are not racist because you would never call a black person the N word but you might have some unconcscious bias to work through.
I cannot see fault in trying to soften this up to make the approach to the necessary change easier. Demanding perfection in this instance is just so very unproductive. We saw how the palace and the british press keep just shrugging this topic off.
As a mixed race woman living in a majority white country myself I have to deal with microagressions every day. And every day I have to make a judgement call about how to deal with it. I have had a lot of success with frank but compassionate discussions rather than coming at people.
This whole thread echoes my feeling on the nuances of the race conversation and i am a black person in the commonwealth. I think it’s easier for the media to always create a sensationalized and simplified narrative/headline without exploring the spaces between the different extremes.
Interesting, though, how there’s room for nuance now that a crown prince said something problematic, but there was very little room for nuance when regular women were saying something problematic on this website, even though they benefitted from institutional racism infinitesimally less than Harry.
I’ve never seen anyone here get ripped apart for discussing unconscious bias vs racism clumsily? It’s not like he’s saying white privilege doesn’t exist or something.
Also the word infinitesimally is not proving your point here.
@Julesy: Not rambling at all, thank you for sharing and for continuing to fight but with an open heart! Your account is powerful, moving and deeply heartbreaking. Proud of you and everyone continuing to have uncomfortable but needed discussions about these topics and for also acknowledging none of us have the perfection box checked. Missteps will occur but we keep going, learning, introspecting…Grateful to have a forum for this level of frank and respectful discussion!
Thank you for a nuanced comment. I think he is trying to draw a distinction between racism due to malice and hatred and racism due to ignorance. Both are awful but one can change if the person is educated. My mother used to call her half Asian grandchild her China Doll though she wasn’t half Chinese. Was it racist- in my mind yes, but was it malicious – not at all.
I agree with your comment and it’s beautiful.
Well, this is a bit..disappointing, he could have worded it way better without coming across so soft about such important issues. Like, don’t try to keep your foot in two shoes now Harry.
Yeah, I’m a little bit disappointed too. Harry is quite possibly the most high profile white person in Britain that can speak with some understanding, compassion, empathy and experience (via his wife and his children) about the racism that exists throughout Britain and he played it safe.
He’s seen his own wife suffer horrific racism while they lived here. I’m sad he didn’t use this platform better.
Feel free not to post Kaiser, I’m coming in hot and a bit emosh
This has done him no favors. How can he say they aren’t racist when their entire existence was built on enslaving and colonizing others? I get what he meant about unconscious bias and how that can turn into racism, and yea that may be true but the fact is the royal family, the whole institution is racist. I think it would have been better to say something along the lines of, “we all have unconscious biases, which if unchecked when brought to our attention can turn into racism, but the institution as a whole is racist.” I don’t know something about this didn’t sit right with me.
This is similar thinking to what he said on Dax Shepard. They had talked about not being so quick to call people racists because sometimes people just don’t know which is fair.
As much as I didn’t like him fully calling it out I understand his reasoning. Racism took over the conversation from the Oprah interview and I wonder if he was trying to avoid that.
Listen he’s def gonna lose people because of this but he’s been consistent in calling out racism and I hope he continues on his learning journey cause he’s got a long way to go
This family’s power, wealth and privilege has been literally built on racism though.
True but I don’t know if Harry even looks at it from that perspective. He’s been saying that the monarchy can be used for good blah blah. I also wonder if that’s what they meant when Meghan said she wanted their story told a different way… I just don’t know if they see the institution the same way.
I think they need to sit down with their black friends, historians, etc and have a frank discussion about all of this because their approach/understanding isn’t fully there
Pipp- very much this. Do they not like the institution based by definition in racism and classism, or do they just not like when *theyre* on the receiving end of that racism and classism? After these interviews, I’m getting the impression it’s the latter and that makes me really sad.
@Colby, exactly. It’s coming off more and more that they will excuse the larger context of racism with the BRF (historical and contemporary contexts) but will push back at it when it affects them personally. I’m pretty turned off right now.
Yes to what everyone in this exchange has said. I was seriously considering cancelling my order for his book. Still not sure. But that little exchange was so disappointing and wrongheaded, tightrope walking, and not actually true. And from the excerpt I saw, he didn’t come to Ngozi’s defense/rescue, just Lady Hussey’s. Who was most hurt by that interaction? And who caused the hurt, intentional or not? And who bears the responsibility of educating white people once more about their “unconscious bias” that harms POC every day, causing POC unending stress, which changes their gene expression leading to disease and the shortening of their lives? Yet the POC always has to be gracious toward the person who harms them, when the person who does the harm gets to go on their merry way with all the pity directed toward them. Do better, Harry.
A mess, yes. But brilliantly played. Concerns over skin color. UK MEDIA claims of Royal family racism is false. Controversy. Talk. Pitiful denial by Willy. Another ‘racist’ incident. UK media fumbling of their previous claim that no Royal racism exist. Egg on UK MEDIA FACE. Harry saves the day. Giving the Royal family a taste of their own medicine…..priceless.
This. He’s playing them and forcing the family and the UK public to not get their back up and ignore the issue. Considering canceling your order of his book because you don’t like that he didn’t come in swinging? Come on now. He’s playing the long game beautifully and he IS forcing a conversation on race while approaching that conversation where people are. Anyone who cancels him for that is falling into the UK media trap, which is to make everything so binary that real conversation gets shut down before it starts.
Are you talking to me?
Russel Myer was on the Lorraine show this morning scrambling on this very issue. The trap was set, by H&M at the Oprah interview. These interviews are just him springing the trap. I stand by my comment😉
i am a supporter of H&M because of the racism that M faced in the BRF and the press. i do not consider myself a fan as neither have achieved really incredible things till now ( in my opinion) other than the fact that they had denounced racism so openly in the BRF. i mean they just received an award for it
So H’s comments are disappointing ( but not completely unsurprising), i think we have projected our opinions and feelings on to them, and today we realise that that projection doesnt reflect the reality.
Unconscious bias and racism are two entirely different things and him dampening down the Oprah interview to say that we have misunderstood this whole time and they never meant racism is a cop-out … but on a human level, i can see that he probably feels that if he keeps talking abt racism, no reconciliation would even be possible.
Honestly after the interview and the excerpts of the book ( i will read it and maybe review my opinion), i do hope it is achievable for him, i believe him when he says he loves his dad and his brother, it almost felt like he saw Will as a parent. But heartbreakingly i dont see how that is possible, they clearly hate M, and even if they take accountability for not liking her, and examine their racism ( sorry unconscious bias), they wont suddenly take a liking to her , giving out hugs and lipgloss.
Best thing to do is for all parties to move on and this time for real.
Agree with absolutely everything you’ve said here Dominique, it’s exactly how I feel. This makes me sad but you ultimately can’t be both pro-monarchy and anti-racism and I think Harry is unfortunately clearly closer to the former.
I appreciate your comments and perspective. Thanks for sharing.
💯% agree with you. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾. I’ve been saying this all along and have felt this way about their situation from the jump. I’m not even disappointed in Harry because it tracks for those with his circumstances and personality. H&M benefit from people projecting a lot onto them, even from Black people (Black American women specifically). I’m a non-ambiguous American Black woman and yea.
This is incorrect obviously.
BUT, he took his family out of that environment in the first place, which makes me hopeful for better work to be done.
I think that we just can’t understand the environment that he grew up in (just the weird, singular combination of racism, insularity, lack of exposure to the world, emphasis on rank, familial distance – the bizarre cocktail creating the Firm). It’s entirely possible that he has heard SO MUCH WORSE behind closed doors, and that’s what he considers racism, instead of realizing that yes, what Hussey did is still racism. I hope that he will unpack that soon.
From what I have seen on Twitter, many people believe that you can’t just call racism what it is when speaking to the British. For the British (and many Americans), saying someone is racist is worse than being racist. I understand the distinction he is making between racism and unconscious bias, but his defense of Susan Hussey is just wrong, imo. I think he has a blind spot here because Hussey was so close to his grandmother who he clearly reveres– yeah, I don’t get that either, but she wasn’t my granny. He’s never going to see his entire family for the toxic soup it is. That is my basic takeaway from the 60 Minutes interview.
‘For the British (and many Americans), saying someone is racist is worse than being racist’
No lies told here.
Imagine if someone took all that energy from being offended at being called racist, and actually used it productively. The world would look a lot different, and be a lot safer.
Yeah people have been surprisingly understanding of that. But then again maybe I’m in my Twitter bubble.
I do think he has some work to do on this and I really hope he follows through.
I remember when stormzy called out racism in the UK and was crucified for it for a long time in the press. He had to backtrack so I get the need to coddle people but in this day and age is that really helpful?
I was extremely disappointed to hear these comments from him. As a POC, I do not understand “softening” racism…call it like it is. Unless of course that is not what he was doing and he just doesn’t understand what racism is. Sigh. This was just messy and irresponsible. Him and his team knew these questions were coming and this was the way they chose to answer them…I’m shocked.
Exactly this – by not calling out the microaggression that ‘where are you really from is’ he is making it much harder for British POC like me to raise awareness as to how it is a display of racism
I watched the ITV interview live and I actually shouted at my TV at this point. What?! Seriously?! Ugh. And when he brought up Ngozi Fulani I was all like Yassss! which quickly turned to Noooo!
A lost opportunity to highlight how the royal family, media and public treat WOC (and call out William’s quick denouncement of racism yet when Meghan’s being attacked….)
He said they’re racist by saying unconcious bias becomes racism because they family did nothing to address the issues he and Meghan raised in the Oprah interview, therefore they are racist. He said it in a nuanced way so the audience didn’t turn off the TV and so his family didn’t go on a “we’re very much not a racist family” briefing spree today. Calling the royal family racist triggers people for various reasons, including that classism is a key part of the system. He meant that Susan Hussey was like everyone else in the institution. They think they can treat people like that and it’s ok because they’re royal adjacent and the family has done nothing to change these attitudes. He was again placing the blame on his family’s inaction. He then meant that the racism in the press about Ngozi and the racism online and vitriol aimed at her was totally unacceptable.
Agree.
And, he’s defending Meghan, against unhinged accusations that she and she alone labelled the BRF as racist. And maybe generally trying to turn down the heat, so to speak, to deflect the crazies. Right or wrong, he is always going to put protecting Meghan and their kids before any other considerations.
Tom should have asked about Ngozi and not the Battleax. Harry should have changed course and discussed Ngozi and not the Battleax. Fail on both their parts.
There were a few things about this interview they rubbed me the wrong way. All of this described by Kaiser, then also his still supporting the existence of monarchy. He has some more work to do if he still is in support of the inherently classist institution of monarchy, and racist institution of a colonial commonwealth. I was really disappointed by that.
Is he fine with the monarchy, by definition, keeping other people down, and only has an issue when it keeps him/Meghan down ? I’m unsure how else to read into that.
@Colby, your question is my question. I said this a few weeks ago in a comment about the Netflix documentary. In the context of the BRF, I will always choose Harry and Meghan because I think they have done some really interesting, good, and innovative things. But one has to acknowledge that it seems they would have stayed in an institution that is incompatible with the modern world and true representative government/liberalism had they been treated better. As one British commentator put it on Twitter, “There is no such thing as woke feudalism.”
Yep. Also, I’ve asked this question for years here and gotten torn down about it: why do they still use their titles? If it were me i would sever every tie to that institution. Why do they keep using them?
The answer is forming for me after these interviews, and I don’t love it.
SusieQ – that is an interesting idea. I believe you could say that about all modern philanthropy. Hell, even Marx wrote about it: that charity from the top down will never make for a better world in rectifying inequalities.
So if it’s paradoxical for Harry and Meghan to be in the situation where their status is incompatible with actual reform, we could also conceivably turn that energy to people like Angelina Jolie etc. That’s not me saying she doesn’t do good work because she is *absolutely* an admirable figure. But she plays a role in the plutocracy of our society in general. It’s a question of sociopolitical capital and how it is concentrated.
It’s not ideal and pretty wrong. But it’s not like the Sussexes are the only example.
I don’t admire them because I think they are perfect ideologically. I admire parts of their work and admire their desire and drive to live their lives.
But they have a lot of work to do like anyone.
As for the titles, they offered to give them up and were turned down after all.
@SusieQ, well said! As we’ve said in other threads, it’s crucial to keep in mind that H is spilling tea, revealing the racism, misogyny & corruption of the BRF largely–perhaps only–because they personally abused him and Meghan. Had they not abused H&M, had they treated them with a modicum of kindness & respect and afforded the least bit media protection, H&M happily would have carried water for the monarchy, doing its neo-imperialist work. We, the public, can support them for leaving a vile institution and the strength that took (truly, the royal family is a cult) and, simultaneously, criticize the limits of their politics. Don’t want to sound like a broken record, but there’s nothing they’re doing that isn’t what most other liberal celebrities & rich people do: philanthropy. And philanthropy might politically be to the left of monarchy (I mean, what isn’t to the left of monarchy? lol) but philanthropy is also politically to the right of socialism and other forms of governance that equitably distribute wealth. H&M still benefit from their wealth (whether ill-gotten or self-made) and dole out money to whom they support, when imo the better answer is to tax the crap out of them and every other rich person so that the public isn’t reliant on the whims of the 1%.
My main bone to pick is that H &M think they are more progressive than they actually are. Congratulations, you are woker than the british royals! But if you are pro-monarch (which H says he is) you are not anti-racist (which is what either H or a talking head said on the Netflix doc). The two are fundamentally incompatible.
Yes. That is exactly what he is saying. There seems to be this narrative built around Harry that he was going to say f**k it and blow the monarchy up. However, it’s becoming clear that he has no intentions of doing that and he never did. And I honestly believe that if Charles and William apologized and gave him what he looking for, he would go back in a second. I know many will disagree with me, but I’m going by his own words. He said himself that he believes in the monarchy. He said himself that he wants a reconciliation. He’s not looking to be out. He just wants things on his own terms.
He also said he wouldn’t go back. So if you believe his words then you have to actually believe his words.
As far as the monarchy goes- he def needs more deprogramming. You cannot be anti racist while upholding colonialism.
I do wonder if this is how he really feels or if this is to stem some of the threats he and his family have received.
Regardless. This is not an opinion I can respect.
She is the same woman who said Harry and Meghan’s marriage will end in tears. And yet harry says he and Meghan love her. Harry is so desperate to be given a role to serve the Commonwealth and reconcile with his abusive family. But this will never gonna happen even if he denies racism.
Omg that a good point about her comments but does Harry know what she’s says? Ick
I was struck by how recent Harry realized his family was against him and Meghan and actively trying to sabotage them. He said it was only the last couple years I believe so maybe he’s still doesn’t see all his enemies?
Well, unconscious bias is a form of racism. I disagree with Harry here. Get that he was trying to soft pedal it for a UK press but he’s still wrong. Genuinely hope he’s got some friends that text him today and say yeah you’ve got some work to do. Don’t think those friends should do the work for him but just point out that there’s some work to be done so get on it.
Harry & Meghan took radical steps to protect themselves within a racist, colonial institution, but they are not radicals. I don’t even think Harry is trying to soft pedal here–I think he’s not yet at the point where he is able to fully recognize or call out the racism. He has his own “assumptions and biases,” such as that the intentions of people he loves matter more than their impact on others.
White supremacist patriarchy is the water in which we swim. I can only imagine that being raised in that institution & only recently addressing his personal trauma means Harry is just beginning to come up for air.
Minimizing racism in discussions of unconscious bias or intent actually creates more racist harm. It allows racism to flourish. If you don’t understand, then make the effort to learn, not from white people softening and appropriating, but from Black, Indigenous and people of colour that have spent significant time studying history, law and economic systems rather than participating in basic discussions about white comfortability.
Ngozi Fulani was harassed, threatened and forced to engage with her abuser. She received thousands of threatens to her personal safety. She was prevented for a time from doing her work which can literally save the lives of Black women and children. This happened because she said racism was real and she was a victim of anti-Black racism. Harry threw her under the bus. He engaged in RACISM against Ms. Fulani through his response about Susan Hussey. H & M seek personal justice for the wrongs they have experienced, which is fine. There is no way their personal desire for accountability can make them anti-racists. This is an example of how you are either racist through silence or complicity or actively anti-racist saying the truth of what is occurring , there isn’t an in-between.
I don’t disagree. I guess I just am not surprised as some other commenters seem to be. Harry & Meghan said in the docuseries that they would have happily continued working in the Commonwealth, which the same docuseries calls “Empire 2.0.” I think it’s fair to say Harry has plenty to learn & I hope he will engage with that.
Ngozi Fulani was treated horribly. It’s additionally unfair because a primary way to get attention for her nonprofit’s mission is to engage with a white supremacist institution. Perhaps in the future, more nonprofits will decline awards or invitations to Buckingham Palace, but I suspect many won’t because proximity to power may benefit their causes.
Harry isn’t going to denounce the monarchy, nor do I think will many others who might benefit from access to it while also suffering under the system that upholds it. It may be simple (i.e, anti-racist versus racist), but it isn’t easy. I dislike white supremacist capitalism, but I still have a job for survival.
He’s still trying to defend the family to some level is what I get here. Hussey should have been dragged but remember this woman is William’s godmother. The there is the head of the Commonwealth issue too, which Charles is. Harry said in Oprah he’d never tell who the racist is. Disappointing, and it shows Harry still needs to work on things. But I won’t drop support on Team Sussex.
Yup this confirmed to me that his not that different from the rest of his family. I already thought it was sus that he named his daughter after the lady that NEVER protected them. But she laid millions for her nasty son. The fact that he wants reconciliation with a family that left his wife sucidal and questioned his son skin colour. Disgusting. The fact that he keeps making excuses for them and calling it unconscious bias. Defending that old lady and talking about culture wars. He’s conservative. He’s so lame for begging people that clearly don’t want or respect him. If he wasn’t personally affected he wouldn’t care. He wants to leave to door open so he can go back. He doesn’t have a problem with the royal institution just his position in it. He’s not taking a stance against his colonists family he’s just upset about not being able to participate in the way he wanted. Saying he would go back to work for the commanwealth is insane. Embarrassing imo. I hope Meaghan has a backup plan cause this man is going back. She deserves better!
I did think at the time time that accepting that NAACP award was a little erm interesting but in light of what he said in his interviews, honestly it’s embarrassing. Apologies I forgot who said it but yeah Meghan and Harry are not radicals, so the fault is probably ours for our assuming the treatment Meghan received would radicalise them, they’ve just changed the address for their problematic philanthropy. And also Harry Africa is not yours, the colonialist in you is showing
I don’t think we can let Meghan totally off the hook here. I have asked (and been yelled at for asking) for years on this blog: why do they still use their titles? Why maintain parts of that classist and racist institution by insisting on being called Price, Duke, Duchess?
Is the answer that they’re (yes, *both* of them) trying to have their cake and eat it too?
Why do you feel the need to bring Meghan into this? She is not responsible for her husband’s comments.
As if Meghan is responsible for racism towards her?
Also, they offered to give up the titles and were refused. Give it up.
Given that M herself has said (in a print interview from the fall) that they are lock-step as a couple, I think it’s fair to not let Meghan off the hook either. They are a united couple, they brand themselves as a united couple– sure I wouldn’t have H speak for the both of them on race, but equally it’s fair to imagine that what H is saying is coextensive with the kind of conversations he and Meghan have so… yeah. As always: you can support H&M because as victims/survivors of institutional abuse while acknowledging that they’re human, have blindspots, and have some ways to go in their journey.
@Naomi, no, that isn’t how it works. They move as a team but they are not monolithic or the same person. I imagine what Meghan does is educate him but allows him to work out his own feelings because she’s not his mom (don’t forget her reaction when Harry got that text). Until she comes out and says the same thing, these are Harry’s words.
Well, we agree to disagree then. Yes they’re individuals, but they are also a team and I have not a doubt that someone as media-trained as Meghan knew that Harry needed to do media-training before this media blitz. The two of them practices speeches on each other as such. There would have been time for feedback had Meghan had a starkly different opinion. I haven’t seen anything out of their own mouths that hasn’t suggested that both of them have some work to do when it comes to racial justice issues.
They are public figures. We can respect their privacy and criticize the racist media and still level entirely fair criticisms and questions at them. Hopefully they both will learn from what we are asking about.
We can agree to disagree with some final words of my own:
This is to promote his book and his story. They may have practiced together for media training but that doesn’t mean their opinions are always the same, it’s also entirely possible they did and they themselves agreed to disagree. This isn’t like the docuseries.
I don’t know what you read from Meghan that means she has especial work to do on racial justice. Most of what she says has just been about her story. Maybe she does and maybe she doesn’t. But this interview is Harry’s, not hers.
They are public figures but that doesn’t mean we know everything. And even if I have a partner who I am in sync with, they still have to go on their own journey.
Well, I finished the other conversation, but @Elizabeth:
Your comment is obviously inserted here meant to interject the tabloid narrative in a discussion of a real misstep on Harry’s part. I have no idea why you think they were supposed to be happy at their security being yanked. And the “Meghan knew what she was getting into”. What is this nonsense about reaping unearned millions? They offered to give up their titles and were told no.
Harry is really giving Stockholm syndrome I bet they will also go to the coronation and William will take his time punishing and othering them, like last week they were applaud at the ripple of hope award for standing up to structural racism. how is he standing up for hussey when its Ngozi whose had to go through brutal harassment for being a whistle blower my god harry
Stockholm syndrome is a good way of looking at it. Harry is on a journey and he’s not ready to completely condemn the institution and his family as a lost cause. It may be easy for us, but he grew up inside of it, it wasn’t ALL bad. It’s a HUGE psychological leap to renounce it and everything and everyone in it.
Yeah I think there is a good deal of Stockholm syndrome happening here.
I know people are disappointed in his comments – I definitely think they were messy and ignorant comments – but I also look at him like this – he grew up in this white supremacist institution. He is a white prince in a very classist and racist country. He was at the top of the social hierarchy, even if he was not at the top of the family hierarchy. He said he didn’t even realize how bigoted the press was until he started dating Meghan. That’s how insulated he was and how…narrow, I guess…his worldview was. (because I don’t think the British press was really hiding its bigotry pre-Meghan, you know?)
I think he’s come a long way and done a lot of work but I think he still has a long way to go. it will be interesting to see where he is in 5 years and if he would answer these questions the same way.
Totally with you, Becks.
Stockholm Syndrome really isn’t what you think it is. This thread explains it really well
https://twitter.com/erinbowbooks/status/1611171203783294977
I can’t check twitter from this computer but I”ll say that I think everyone understands how we’re using it in this specific context.
By definition this is nowhere close to Stockholm syndrome. One of the characteristics is that there is no previous relationship between the captor and the hostage.
What I see Harry doing is a very normal human tendency to marginalize errors and character deficiencies of your loved ones. There is a reason you have a right to refuse to testify against your family.
If not Stockholm Syndrome it’s definitely brainwashing from the BRF. I see what you’re saying but the Firm is pretty similar to something like Scientology.
I’ve been avoiding the spoilers so I haven’t been on the site much but I did want to see the recaps of the ITV interview. I don’t want to give too much understanding because people do need to call out racism, and they do need to get to the point where they understand that that is all it is. That being said I think some people are projecting a little too much of their own personal thoughts experiences and desires for tackling racism onto Meghan and Harry. He still has decades in a very insular environment that he needs to unpack, including his regular old privilege as a white male. Expecting them to be these burn it all down revolutionaries, it’s just going to lead to disappointment. They are people who are not going to see everything the same way that you do, and who are not going to feel the same way about institutions and people the way that you do. I keep saying this but this is the problem with attaching ideals to people. When you make people the face of things like racism, domestic violence, sexual violence, misogyny you dehumanize them and make them need to be perfect in everything that they do or say so that they don’t minimize those very serious topics. It’s irrational and it’s unfair.
I think this is a fair statement and I believe Harry is taking on his family, the powerful British media and the royal institution, so he’s playing the long game.
Something else I realized after posting is that some seem to want Harry to approach racism as if he has had the same lived experience as they have as POCs for 30,40,50 years and that’s not going to happen. He has 35 years of extreme privilege, he is not going to view things the way I do as a 40 year black woman biracial wife or not. He’s been with Meghan what 7 years and they left 3 years ago? He is going to continue to bumble, misstate things, give people that don’t deserve it anymore the benefit of the doubt because unshackling yourself from thoughts and beliefs is a lot of work. I’m not saying Harry doesn’t deserve to be called out he does, but he does deserve some grace and understanding that he is not going to be perfect and say the right thing all the time. The only way that someone can get better about their bigoted thoughts is constant work, and people pointing out when it occurs, and giving them the grace to correct that behavior.
obv i dont speak for others, but i dont believe im wrong in saying that it is POC and more specifically us, WOC who have been their ride or die ever since Meghan got married into that family. He has had our grace and understanding for many years already, at what point do we say, ok, maybe he is not who we thought he is?
what else do we need to excuse? Frankly, everything that he has said so far just reinforces that he did not prepare Meghan at all for what life as a royal would be, he has a therapist on speed dial but would not get Meghan help when she needed it? And now, we misunderstood what they said and it wasn’t racism but unconscious bias, and its the british media’s fault? Except that all of us who listened to that interview and all media around the world heard it as the BRF were racist. This is gaslighting to say that we all heard it wrong.
i hope he’s worth it because it seems like Meghan had a much better life before all this
I agree with you @Dee(2). It’s the same argument that black people use against Obama when they said he didn’t do enough for us. Not sure what they were expecting to happen. I guess Harry saying the royal family is racist was supposed to bring down the monarchy or something. People project their own agendas and if you don’t live up to that then you have failed.
That’s what’s so odd to me, like what is the expectation of what will happen if he does say that, the monarchy just dissolves like he said the deplorable word in CS Lewis? The monarchy itself going away would also mean that they would have to get rid of the House of Lords because it’s intrinsically connected the aristocracy and their government. This is not something that one person can bring down. As crappy as it is you have to work within the system that you currently have which means that people need to be advocating loudly with protest and votes to get people on side with them for the idea of getting rid of it. It seems very much so baked into the identity of that country, but for all of the people who want to dismantle the monarchy it’s going take way more than criticism from even a Prince.
Harry wants his cake and to eat too. There’s a lot of he’s catering to”British” sensibilities about racism but honestly the more he’s spoken, and details about his memoir have come out, the more apparent it’s become that he’s not unhappy with the completely until unfair institution of royalty is, but basically his own individual mistreatment then any wider discussion about how his and Meghans mistreatment is a microcosm of what happens in society. I get without the mantle of royalty, his identity and image will more or less disappear but the complete lack of self awareness is bordering on a joke, especially given his initial interview with Oprah (basically track backing on the comments around Archie’s skin color etc, the hiding behind racism by using the term “unconscious bias” it’s racism just plain racism). I think people are being generous that he’s on a journey and that somehow he’ll become more self aware etc but I think this is who he is. Honestly I’m not even sure why I am surprised, it’s being there along.
This. All of this.
Harry is walking a unique and bizarre line. He grew up in a family that massively abused him and yet he learned to take pride in their thousand-year-lineage and traditions blah blah blah. He obviously doesn’t care about himself in terms of that institution, but he cares about certain family members even though they abused him. He has never assigned any role to himself about being a freedom fighter, only asking for his own. You could say that’s selfish with his platform, but it’s the line he is walking right at this particular moment and it’s a bit much to ask him to be the one to try to take down an institution that has shaped Britain for centuries. Perhaps we will see more action later.
What I am getting from all this is that this institution majorly effed him up in the head. This guy really thought his mother was in hiding for years.
It’s going to take many years of therapy and work to get his head in the right place.
These comments of his were wrong. But I don’t think they indicate what you claim personally, about him specifically.
Diana never campaigned for the abolishment of the monarchy either, despite it nearly destroying her.
Harry is an accomplished, charming and attractive guy but a large part of what makes him special (and marketable) is his Royal birth. He’s never going to be completely opposed to the monarchy because he still benefits from it. Even if he lives on the other side of the world and loses his title, he is still the son of a monarch. It’s the ultimate form of privilege and I think we’ve learned by now that people don’t like to part with privilege. He wants the royals to stop being terrible, backstabbing people but he doesn’t want them to go away…
OriginalLeigh – I don’t really think this is a fair reading. If Harry doesn’t grow and stays of the same mindset for 15 years we’ll know the answer. But he literally grew up in an environment that thought blackface and Nazi shirts were funny..? He messed up here. I get it.
His proximity to Diana is what makes him so famous not really the royal birth. And let’s remember again that she didn’t campaign for the abolishment of the monarchy either.
Here is another issue. It’s very easy for regular people to completely separate themselves from toxic families. Harry’s path in that regard is not easy. His family and his role in it ties into complicated political and social landscapes in the entire country.
So, recalling Diana, the question is: can someone try to free themselves from this dynamic to live their lives, or is it only satisfactory to the ones observing if they also do their best to destroy one of the biggest institutions in the world? It’s up to you.
Exactly this.
@C – I absolutely believe that people should be given a chance to grow and evolve and I think Harry has come a long way (but obviously still has further to go). Regarding Diana, I would actually say the same about her. She was a beautiful, charismatic and empathetic woman but we only had the opportunity to know and love her because she married the Prince of Wales. To be clear, I’m not putting Harry or Diana in the same category as Charles/Camilla/Will/Kate. I think royalty is really the only thing those four have going for themselves and they don’t appear to have many/any other redeeming qualities. Harry/Diana have/had a lot of great attributes but royalty is what put them on the “map.” I think Harry must have complicated feelings about abolishing the monarchy because that is what has driven a lot of the international interest in him which is what is allowing him to support his family. That said, I don’t live inside his head and maybe he is all for abolishing the monarchy but he’s never said that publicly…
If he isn’t supporting the abolishment of the monarchy (which none of us knows) then I don’t think it’s for financial reasons personally. We know that these people really believe in the “Chosen by God” crap and that to follow this system is to honor their much-loved matriarch and now her memory, and I imagine that is extremely difficult to unlearn.
Diana was not born royal, and so the “cache” of royalty even though her bloodline was older is what catapulted her. She broke free, and was spreading her wings before she died, doing work that made a lot of people angry and upset (landmines for one). A big nickname for her was “Lady Di”. But, for Harry, it’s different. He was in that fishbowl his whole life. Echoing his mother is and was always going to draw attention to him.
@C – Sorry for not being clear. I don’t think it’s ONLY about money. I think it has given him a unique place in history and society which few people will ever have. It also connects him to a very complicated family. It is something he uses to make money (and I don’t blame him for that) but it’s not just about money.
@OtherNaomi if according to you unconscious bias is the same as racism, then did Harry not call his family racist? In fact unconscious bias is worse than racism in my opinion because it can cause people not to confront things that are wrong. It is not some benign condition, it allows people to not see injustice or not feel responsible for it because they are not “racist”. It uses code words like “crime” and “ good schools” to cover up racist positions. It’s a conversation we all need to have, and that’s why I think critical race theory is so important.
Wonder what his mother in law thinks about these comments. Look, I have had to unpack some shit in recent years because of the BLM movement and various things that happened in my own country. It’s been a journey, it’s been embarrassing because I genuinely thought I wasn’t racist AT ALL. I can say I never meant to be and I can call it unconscious bias but at the end of the day, the root of it all is racism, xenophobia etc. As long as you don’t name it, as long as you make excuses for elderly people, you’re not there. And he has a Black wife. Although, as we learned in the documentary, she herself had often been passing and wasn’t prepared for the horror that was unleashed.
I personally will also not make excuses for old people anymore. You want to be respected? You want to continue to live in this society? Then evolve. There’s no expiration date, no age where it’s fine to continue being terrible. And you can say “I know Lady Susan, I like her. But this was racist and it wasn’t okay.” You can say that. About your friends, about your family, about your elders and about yourself.
This wishy washy bs was not impressive. Especially because OF COURSE they called the family racist in the documentary. They may have been careful not to use the word but yes they called them that. I guess the outrage is only really there when they are attacked personally?
I think most white people choke on the word racism, Harry included. Its associated with cross burning and white sheet wearing, at least here in America. Which I think is part of the racist establishment’s plan because then people won’t examine how it’s racism that’s behind issues like school funding, environmental protections and zoning laws. Its hard to condemn something that you directly benefit from. And yes classism is part of it too, I understand that. I think it would have been better if Harry would have been better to draw the link between “unconscious bias” and policies that harm people of color. But I guess that is not his wheelhouse.
I am British and am really disappointed in his stance. I can’t believe what he said about Susan Hussey. I also think it’s at odds with Meghan’s work on archetypes.
I support Meghan, but today I am decidedly unenthused about Harry.
We cannot excuse this saying that he’s playing to the British audience. He needs to be consistent with what racism actually is.
I feel like Harry wants to go back to what is comfortable. His life in the RF. He wanted to leave and create his own thing in California and built up this American life as something that it didn’t turn out to be. The fantasy is always better than the realty. Diana wanted back in at the end and now so does Harry. Being royal has got to be like a drug. Hard to give up and just be a regular person. When you think about his past, it’s not hard to believe his true nature is not what we all projected on to him. He has the royal bloodline and you just can’t be a normal down to earth person who fights racism when you are part of that bloodline. Those people see only themselves and maneuver in ways that will benefit them and them alone.
Diana never left the UK. His return and reconciliation with the RF will only be possible if he abandons his wife and children.
How did you jump to the conclusion that Harry wants back in when he said no he doesn’t? I think Harry would like a father, brother, aunts and uncles but that is not wanting “back in”. He’s done with that. To me its like people who have horrible, MAGA nutcase relatives. Some would still want a relationship, others will say ” nope” and never speak to them again.
His father and brother hate his wife. According to Charles, he does not consider Meghan as a family. So Harry has to choose between reconciling with his father and brother vs. staying with his wife and children.
Well @ROAA he’s still in America right? With his wife and kids so I think his choice is clear.
Reconciling with his father and brother does not mean leaving his wife and children. Thats a pretty extreme take, considering what Harry has said about accountability etc.
It’s interesting how after years of championing him as the 2nd coming of what royalty should be, some people are now entirely prepared to throw the prince out with the bathwater because of this.
Well Black people were supporting them because of the racism that he claimed was happening within his family and press. And now he’s shifting things. So yeah, I am side eyeing him too.
That’s not the only reason black people were supporting him. A lot of black people were excited when Harry and Meghan got married before all of this came out. And they were excited that Harry and Meghan wanted to work with young people and communities that were traditionally overlooked.
Well Black people are not excited about this so there you go. He sounds ridiculous and in denial. And is trying to backpedal real hard on the whole skin color conversation and the mess with Lady Susan. He’s not an ally.
Well, this is one situation where if they feel they want to then it’s understandable (as opposed to when he went to visit the Queen etc).
I personally think he will do better and is coming from a place of severe mental trauma and frankly brainwashing.
But these particular comments – people don’t have to have time for them if they don’t want to. They are pretty oblivious. I am hoping he will hear the criticism and take it to heart.
it is much healthier for people to change their mind based on the facts before them, that to cling on to an idealised version of what we hope someone is. It is the very foundation of critical thinking.
i dont glorify either Meghan or Harry, my support of them has always been based on their stance against racism in the BRF/BM, if he walks back on claims or waters them down so suit his narrative, then i am not contractually obligated to carry on supporting them just out of a sense of misplaced loyalty. There are plenty of others, including ordinary people, waging this same battle, to look up to.
Harry doesnt want to bring down the monarchy, he wants a system that is built on unfairness to be fair to him/Meghan, but not necessarily to the rest of us. Why else would he say, what difference does it makes if he keeps his titles?
Exactly this @Dominique.
But, if one (admittedly, yes, BAD) misstep can cause supporters to abjure him, then maybe either these particular supporters should not have been so devoted to him in the first place, or, they should give him a chance to explain or clarify.
We’re very quick to expect nothing but perfection from those in the public space while preaching self love and accepting imperfections* in ourselves.
*Imperfections being misspeaking or making points badly, not racism. Racism is not an imperfection and it is a reason to walk away from someone.
I agree with Frippery. They may lose supporters but they never asked anyone to be stans for them in the first place. Nobody was EVER contractually obligated to support them and I don’t even think that’s why they’re doing any of this honestly.
I’ve thought this for a while. Bringing Meghan into his familial mess was a great act of selfishness.
He knew a lot of this and chose not to see how it would impact on her life. She had a very nice life pre-Harry and he could have done more to warn her before she got dragged in.
Yeah….as someone who read Spare I am like….okay. I just…okay.
@Chilling – Can you please elaborate? Just curious to hear more about your take on this because you’ve actually read the book. Thanks.
Don’t be shocked when he shows at the coronation.
This comment was awful and honestly side eyeing him saying him and Meghan think Lady Susan is lovely. Jesus. And him blaming the media? The media didn’t do this. Lord.
I would be shocked if he didn’t show to the coronation. I hope Meghan doesn’t but honestly who knows anymore.
Yep. Even reading Spare, he wants to serve the Crown. He would go back if they apologized sincerely and protected Meghan and the kids. I think we all thought he was going to blow up the Monarchy, but he’s not. And we can all stop expecting it.
I honestly don’t know why people thought that. I never did. It’s not his job yo blow up the Monarchy and it’s naive to think that he would or could.
Ameerah agreed. But I think then Meghan and Harry are going to get blowback at going on about the RF then. So I hope he gets that part. Cool dude, we get it, racism, but not here with people you are related to, but racism on the part of the press. He shot himself in the foot.
They’ll probably show up for the coronation (sans kids) and then immediately leave, not even hanging around for the post-coronation meal or whatever.
Sorry if thread jacking. I was confused after watching their documentary, which clearly articulated the racism inherent to the Commonwealth (even referring to it as ‘Empire 2.0’) , to hear Harry say he would still like to work for the Commonwealth. He has understandably been very caught up in the racism that Meghan faced but he needs to also see the bigger picture , ie that the whole institution is systematically racist, particularly if he wants to be an advocate in this area. It’s not a big leap given the monarchy is predicated on a certain bloodline being superior to all others so it’s disappointing to say the least that he hasn’t got there after all this.
That part was so interesting. He pretty much though his wife’s Blackness could somehow bring people together and strengthen the Commonwealth. It sounded a little bit like he saw an opportunity to get Black people and People of Color on their side without doing the work, i.e. acknowledging and working through their history. “Look, this is my wife, she looks like you!” Little bit like the Black friend that means you can’t be racist. Representation is great but it doesn’t erase history.
That’s literally what everyone said when they got married. Including Black folks in the UK and Commonwealth countries.
I didn’t see it at the time but I did know – from a foreigner’s perspective – just how racist and classist the UK is and how the tabloids can be like f*cking Dracula. So I was skeptical but I thought if she is fine with living in that family and going to Commonwealth countries, that’s her decision. I was expecting a second part to this issue in the documentary. As in, yes, I thought this was a good idea but now I know better. That was missing.
I think by Harry being an advocate it’s to make sure that the perspective of the Commonwealth is addressed by the royal family. The government though is another story. People keep hollering about abolish the monarchy when you have a wholes ass racist government that will still be there.
That’s the and then what part for me. Let’s just say he says easy peasy lemon squeezy to calling my family racist and saying abolish the monarchy, you still have plenty of Brits black and white with OBE and CBE and MBE after their names that are perfectly happy carrying water for white supremacy and a completely racist government. The onus can’t be on these two to do all the heavy lifting.
Trying to separate “unconscious bias” from racism when it’s an extension and product of a racist society, which Britain is, felt so different from any interview he’s given to American outlets that I have to assume he was so wishy washy and walking on eggshells because he was speaking to a very defensive, thin-skinned British audience that is nowhere near on the level of America’s acknowledgment and discussion of racism. That’s my charitable take.
I think that’s very charitable of you. He was filmed using racist terms while serving in Afghanistan and says in his book that he’s learnt from it but at the time he never knew they were racist?
That’s a little… disingenuous.
Sorry, but this exactly where he has to stand firm. He has been happy to accept awards from the NAACP and the Ripple of Hope regarding standing up to racism. Then he should stand against it- fighting the good fight is hard and uncomfortable. What he’s done here is play right into the BRF and BM hands
It is likely difficult for PH to have a clear view about some things because he did grow up in that cult and because of clouding of issues with the RF viewing the majority of people as beneath them. Even family members aren’t exempt from being seen as lesser and being scapegoated. They also, sadly, are his family and that makes things more difficult. It’s a wonder, being so close to the throne, that he has any clear thinking at all. I think Eugenie is somewhat in the same position. She is basically a decent person but didn’t react when her dad felt her up in front of the world. Sometimes it is hard to let go when it involves family.
I think a lot of this stems from how we each view racism. For some people (including myself), it’s like a sickness – it’s something that manages to “infect” all of us, to some degree. We have to acknowledge that sickness, inoculate against it, treat ourselves with the “medicine” of education and empathy, and then seek to eradicate it in society. The treatment can be painful but it is essential. But a lot of white people I grew up with view it as something more akin to a character flaw. By calling someone “racist,” you’re essentially telling them, “you have this bad part of your character, your morality, that you are intentionally using to harm others.” And they, very naturally, react by saying “Of course I’m not trying to hurt others! I try to be a good person! You obviously don’t understand me at all! Why are you trying to denigrate me?” And the conversation goes downhill from there.
I get that Harry is trying to get around that second perspective and keep many of the white people he knows in the conversation. By using “unconscious bias,” he’s giving them an out – up until they become aware of the problem, and then they are obligated to do something about it.
The problem is that people who are unconsciously “infected” with racism still harm others and still spread that infection through parenting and influencing others. Susan Hussey may not have intended harm, but her impact was harm, and Ngozi Fulani experienced that harm. And in 2023, can anyone honestly say that they are truly unconscious of these things? Haven’t we had enough conversations in society – enough instances where marginalized groups of all kinds have taken effort to express how it hurts them to go through these things – to know better?
Anyone who’s “unconscious” now is actually: privileged, insulated, protected and empowered.
And I think it’s totally fair to call that out.
Harry isn’t yet ready to fully face that the Monarchy is a prime example of an unequal system that fosters privilege, insulates its members from others in society, protects its primary members from being challenged or discomfited, and empowers them to punish those who would force them to act differently.
Oh Harry. I think it comes down to intention versus impact. I want to believe he intended to have more British people be willing to do their own learning by reframing the conversation as “unconscious bias”. But the impact of his words are a white privileged person trying to make racism and white supremacy more palatable to the British public which significantly minimizes, to say the very least, the experiences of racism and it’s extreme dangers. Black Twitter is right to call him out. It’s comparable to Jessica Mulroney saying Black people need to be kind with the white eye opening to racism. He is in the wrong here. Let’s hope he handles that.
I didn’t like this part of the interview. Harry seems to have difficulty publicly admitting that his family and the institution are racist but I understand why he didn’t want to say so. The British audience gets defensive when accusations of racism are made. I believe he knows that his family is racist but didn’t want his interview to overshadowed by this topic.
Yeah, he already said somewhere else that everyone went crazy looking for “the royal racist” when the skin color thing was brought up. He probably doesn’t QUITE want to go there (again) (ish).
Racism is really a spectrum. I think people struggle to find ways to make distinctions between where they or others fall on that spectrum. Its all racism… but clearly there is a difference between one side of the spectrum and the other. Harry has made significant progress on where he falls… but I don’t think (with things being as systemic and ingrained as they are) he can ever come off the spectrum completely. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be supportive of his progress. And doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out mistakes. Just important to offer someone, especially someone who has shown they are doing the work, an opportunity to listen, think on it, and change. I am confident Harry will take this criticism to heart, really listen, and consider how to do things different in the future.
Agreed. And I find it silly that people expect him to speak perfectly about race when it’s been something that up until recent years he hadn’t. He’s going to say dumb shit. The issue is he LISTENS and LEARNS when what he says is pointed out t being problematic or incorrect. But this idea that he is supposed to magically have it all figured out when folks’ only families don’t is rather absurd.
As Avenue Q pointed out, everyone’s a little bit racist. Everyone has their moments/blind spots. You just don’t have to let it run your life.
The comments on this post have been interesting to read. I think there is and was a HUGE amount of projection onto Harry and who y’all think he was or should be. He is a rich white male who has only been out of the bubble of his privilege for THREE Years. You really thought he was going to magically have the whole racism thing all figured out?? The harsh truth is that this is how MOST white folks bungle talk about race. Even the one with good intentions and who THINK they have it all figured out. I see it every day. He is no different. He has a lot to learn and has a lot of growth still to do. That’s obvious. And as a Black woman, I have learned to manage my expectations on how much we can expect of folks who are just truly unlearning the stuff they have learned from birth. But I will give him the grace and space to do so. If in 5-10 years time he still is talking like this that’s a different story.
A lot of people were convinced he was going to be Luke Skywalker or something and I’m not sure why.
Right? A helluva lot of projection and then anger that he isn’t doing what THEY want him to do. Which is no better than his family.
Yeah that constantly surprises me. Families, especially abusive families are complex and I wouldn’t want to have to untangle myself from one on front of the world and have to deal with people from both sides having these ideas about how I should do it. At the end of the day it’s up to you to decide whether or not you want to support them, but don’t be mad if they make decisions that ensure that they have some family and friends around them because we are all only observing from afar.
Yes! So much projection and deflected responsibility. The only people who have the power and the ability to #AbolishTheMonarchy are British citizens–not the King, not the Future King, not the Spare. No member of the royal family–born-ins and married-ins–will ever advocate for abolition. So I don’t understand why people are upset at Prince Harry. It’s like they want permission to request abolition, or the permission to have the conversation given to them by someone of great power like…a member of the royal family.
Yeah if you are waiting for a member of the monarchy to call for abolishing the monarchy you are going to be disappointed. The onus falls on the citizens to work to dismantle these institutions not expect the institution to fall apart for them.
He got criticized by many Black people for accepting that NAACP award and I hope he’s cool with that criticism being really loud after he said this.
@ChillininDC. Yep. Straight facts.
@dominique I mean all that comes with understanding that someone isn’t perfect. Even being a ride or die supporter in my view a lot of people have idealized Harry and Meghan and made basic choices that they made for them and their family mean larger systemic and institutional things, and are now disappointed that they weren’t? It also if we’re keeping it a 100, comes across a little disingenuous to me for a lot of POC on this thread to not understand the nuance of dealing with your family. This is his family, it is never going to be as easy to say screw them all for him as it is for us. I have no great affection or memories of these people who are clouding my view. On the flip side if we take racism out of the equation and flip it to our own personal dealings with homophobia, internalized misogyny, transphobia can we say that we always did and said the perfect thing every single time didn’t say things that make us cringe recollecting it? Do we deserve to be thrown in the trash the because we said or did something offensive, when we have shown we are trying to get better? I mean I guess bully to those that haven’t had that issue for being born the wokest of the woke.
ALL of this.
Yes. I don’t know why but it seems that H&M are expected to be perfect before being deserving of support by some. It is interesting also how some people equate anything one of them says with the other being in complete agreement or as if the other said it. It’s amusing. I’m sure they don’t agree with each other’s words 100% of the time. I guess, they just do a good job of supporting each other that it seems so?
I feel like people didn’t hear what he said. He clearly stated that if his family and others are made aware of their unconscious bias and do nothing to learn from their mistakes then it drifts to racism. Pretty clear that he wasn’t giving his family a pass.
Also both Meghan and Harry went out of their way to not call anyone racist on the Oprah interview and he had every right to push back on the media’s twisting of what they said.
Making excuses for Susan Hussey is not it. I get that she is important to Harry but she f*cked up and put Ms. Fulani in treacherous waters with her actions. He still has growing to do like we all do but this should have been a no brainer. You can love the person and still call them out, we see how he’s done/doing this with his brother. You can’t be soft on her because she’s an old woman, she was wrong and he needs to see it.
OMG could Harry have contradicted himself any more than he did here. He just got an award for highlighting racism in the royal family and now he says it wasn’t racism. So disappointing. Does he now want back in the institution? What is going on? Surely Meghan isn’t of the same opinion. And Meghan is very quiet these days. It’s like Harry has forgotten what he’s already said but he couldn’t be that confused surely.
He didn’t contradict himself. He didn’t get an award for highlighting racism but for their charity work. He was very literal in what he said in the interviews. Where in the Oprah interview did he say outright the royal family was racist? He didn’t. Meghan didn’t. We all know they’re racist. He was splitting hairs on this but it seemed like a deliberate strategy to me.
My my my the t r o l l s are out in force today. Guess that’s what Carol(E) got Keen for her birthday, upped the budget for PP trolls online.
I heard that part of the Bradby interview and the conversation surrounding it in Spaces afterwards and honestly, think Harry made the right approach. The Susan Hussy thing is the palaces problem to deal with. If he said anything else, the story would be he attacked this old lady, the dear old Queens companion, rather than the actual issue of racism. We all know it was totally racist, including Harry. Also the part about Bradby saying they called the royal family racist, I’m glad Harry pushed back on that. Harry knows how the press works over there and manipulates what he says, so glad told him outright they never called the royal family racist in that interview because they didn’t. Harry has called them out several times but he wanted the focus to be on the press practices over there. I think the frustration is a lot of people now expect him to be a voice on racism in Britain but frustrated he’s not totally there yet, but Harry’s not the guy for this conversation. Glad he and Meghan got the ball rolling but others need to open up this dialogue over there.
Perfectly said!
Are you talking about the byline spaces? The conversations with RS Locke, Ava Vidal and Mic Wright have been really good. RS Locke spoke really well about this. Think the recordings are on Twitter and maybe Spotify?
Yes it was the Byline spaces. It was a good conversation and the criticism had some valid points but at the same time there was expectation he could have gone further or he needs better advise on how to approach these questions. They’re right and do better next time Harry However, I don’t get those disappointed he doesn’t completely denounce the monarchy either. He has a much larger platform than he realizes so he may have to sometimes approach what he says the way a politician does, very carefully.
Any way to listen to this?
Wasn’t Hussey the one who [supposedly] told one of the Rats that the Sussex marriage would end in tears? For Harry to include Meghan in the “we love her”…yeeesh. Also, Sister Space had to shut down for weeks due to threats. Those weren’t “unconscious bias” threats. Those were racist threats. Sir. Please.
…yeah, I did wonder on the “we” bit of that. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I haven’t watched the ITV interview and not sure I can from the US, but I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that Harry isn’t completely willing to call his own family members racist? I think he sees the British tabloid press as racist (it is) and he thinks the headlines affect his family’s behavior? Didn’t he say in the Anderson Cooper interview that his family reads the tabloids? So if I’m being super generous, he’ll blame the British press as racist and thinks the headlines about Meghan affected their behavior towards her. I also think Harry knows if he flat out calls his father and brother racist himself, they will never reconcile with him or speak to him again. Though at this point, I can’t see reconciliation being a possibility and I think it’s naive of Harry to think it’s possible. It’ll be interesting to see what Harry will say in 5-10 years down the road. I’m wondering what Michael Strahan would have said to him had he made those comments to him.
Harry has a lot to learn and the Ripple of Hope award is seeming a bit redundant (? not sure that’s the right word) but I think the award was more for Archewell and what they’ve done as a whole for racial injustice and mental health, not just Harry and Meghan personally standing up to the royal family’s racism. It is disappointing to see him defend Susan Hussey but he’s probably of the “She’s old, she didn’t mean any harm” camp, without thinking of what the British press did to Ngozi Fulani.
Harry isn’t perfect but he is admirable for doing his best to navigate a treacherous thicket of lies, racism, attacks and family ties.
Even my heroes disappoint sometimes. The important part is that they, and also Harry, learn and grow.
My feeling is that Harry should’ve gone through about 10 more years of therapy and reflection before talking in depth about his and Meghan’s experience. To me, he seems very lost and hurt in terms of who is responsible for the hatred his family has endured — sometimes he has the sense that his own family and the institution is responsible, but other times it’s just “the media.” His words end up sounding contradictory, confusing, and like he wants to have his cake and eat it too, and I think that’s because he’s still quite freshly out of the BRF and doesn’t fully know what to make of what he and Meghan experienced.
I will always admire Harry for how he got his family out of a bad situation and left for a whole new life in order to protect them. But he’s human, and I think he still has much to work through.
Most of us spend our whole lives working through issues like this. I do not believe in a time frame frankly. If people find them contradictory, that’s their prerogative.
She meant is … that’s who that woman is … a racist pig just like his family and is quite disappointing that he STILL can’t see it or REFUSES to see it. He excusing that racist hag is quiet dangerous. Mrs. Fulani is the ONLY victim not that old hag. This is very disappointing and I can see why Black Twitter is coming for him on this point.
Great comments from many perspectives! A lot of valid points on all sides. Good reads. We are all complex beings…
I don’t agree. I think most of us would think we are not racist yet have postures and attitudes of which we are unaware that amount to unconscious bias. Once we are called out on it, we should make an effort to recognize and remedy it. Racism is frequently a philosophy that people consciously dedicated themselves to. I think there is very arguably a difference between the two. One person has good intentions, the other does not.
I believe once he knows better, he’ll do better. As an African American I’m not offended, although I will expect him to know better in the future, considering the type of institution he was indoctrinated in. If I were offended everytime awhiteperson offended me… I’d be dead.
Word.
I remember my partner stating “they’re nice 90% of the time” about his racist family. That somehow not displaying implicit and unconscious bias to the “compliant, trustworthy, vetted and assimilated” immigrants and poc or running in a charity 4k or treating all the other majority white people kindly somehow excused his family’s blatant racism made me realize just how indoctrinated and conditioned he was. He’s still working on it. Harry’s still working on it too. As a poc let me state one thing civility and diplomacy does not work with the bringers of so called civilization. Especially when their civilization is based on devaluing another human being based on skin color and gender. It’s such a burden to always having to remain “civil and never profane” around racists who perpetuate systemic racism and racial harm on you. Engaging with the very white hierarchy that is the british monarchy today while using their customs of civility and diplomacy smh. Look at how they are brutalizing this fence sitting diplomat to make an example out of any other white man who murmurs anything about calling them out on their racism. He needs to pick a side and call it what it is. How else are you going to dismantle it?
Yeah, his comments on this were a MESS. But he’s surrounding himself now with people who can set him straight — his wife, his mother-in-law, Tyler Perry, the leaders of Sentebale, even Oprah (all privileged people, yes, but except for Prince Seeiso of Lesotho, they haven’t always been).
I can see him getting schooled on this by not just these folks, but by others. The difference between Harry and the rest of the royal family is that they continue to live in a racist, classist bubble. He at least is giving himself a chance to learn. Let’s hope he does.
I didn’t find Harry’s comments about racism and unconscious bias messy or confusing at all. He’s correct. There’s a difference between being racist and being unconsciously biased. ALL OF US—regardless of our skin color probably have some unconscious bias and if pointed out, we would either want to do better after acknowledging it…or after opting not to acknowledge it…. get our backs up and declare passionately “I’m not a racist”. Lady Hussy (that name kills me every time)… maybe a lovely woman and was clueless that her question — if not racist, was rude, and for Harry to acknowledge that is kind: he’s known her his entire life.
Is he backtracking already? Wow
I’m a white woman so take what I say with a grain of salt. Harry has been steeped in racism his entire life. His wealth was built off of colonization. And these people are his family, toxic or no. It’s going to take him a long time to get out of that mindset and he’s not going to do it without a heck of a lot of mistakes.
I am still learning to undo biases that I’ve had for years. I do it by listening and I don’t think Harry has really done too much of that. He’s still making excuses and this will be messy.
But I give him credit for trying to extricate himself out of there. It’s not easy. But after this, I suggest he sit down and do more active listening.
Was it the Oprah interview where he talks about Prince Seeiso describing the Brits as racist? He countered that he told him it was the British press that was racist not the Brits. Now EYE don’t think you have one without the other but I see where he’s been consistent on this issue.
My problem with the unconscious bias vs racism distinction is racism is prejudice + power. If anyone defines power it’s the BRF and the press.
He could’ve worded it better, but I do get what he was trying to say that a lot of people are fine recognizing blatant racism but not unconscious biases that lead to racism. One is an active choice to hate other people based on arbitrary criteria. The other is harder to dig into because people do it subconsciously, so they don’t have the cognizant reflex that says, “This is a problematic way of thinking.” It leads to a defensive position precisely because people can’t see why it’s wrong. Both are socially damaging, but one is a lot more insidious.
IMO, it would do better to take the empathetic approach of “this person was entrenched in dogma and is clearly still working his way out of it” then to immediately turn on them. Some liberals like to do the latter, and I don’t find it productive.
I’m looking forward to tomorrow to listen to the audiobook in full.
I’m glad they mentioned that they loved Susan Hussey.
Also, it’s good Harry confirmed the BRF is not racist.
I’ve been a fan of H&M since the beginning and supported and defended them in my heart. But this, for me, is the moment when the fever breaks. I just can’t support their nonsense anymore.
You can try to defend it by parsing everything (“Well, she never technically said the word ‘racism.'”) or just write it off as “He has more work to do.” Indeed he does and he needs to go do that work, quietly.
No one is perfect but I no longer feel assured that they are acting in good faith.
Guess this is how Cornel West felt when he completely turned on Obama. I jest, but not really. I don’t know what you mean by acting in good faith , good faith for what exactly? Is he too easy on his family, yes. Is he sick of constantly hearing he’ll be responsible for destroying the 1000 year old monarchy because he exposed their lousy behavior. Yep. It is what it is. Your saint’s halo is dented. He’s a complex person.
ok, but they just accepted an award in December from the Kennedy Foundation for their work on STRUCTURAL RACISM and the NAACP less than a year ago. no one is saying he’s responsible for dismantling a 1000 year institution…but if you’re going to accept an award for an honor in exemplary work in social justice and progress, you better be held accountable for your words. they put themselves on that pedestal by accepting the award. give it back then and try again.
I’m a little confused by it too. I’m taking it to mean that he thinks that its only racism when you actively believe in the superiority of one race over another. I think that Harry thinks that there’s an opportunity for them to recognize their unconscious bias, that once made aware of it that they would then self correct and for that reason, its not racism? Like the magic bullet theory of royal racism.