Keep in mind, the conversation about evicting Prince Andrew from Royal Lodge has been happening for months, years really. Basically, as soon as he withdrew from public life back in 2019-20, there were calls for Andrew to be evicted from the palatial Royal Lodge. Those conversations never went anywhere because QEII shielded him to the very end. When QEII passed away, I thought that King Charles would evict Andrew right away and put him on an ice floe, never to be heard of again. Instead, Charles took steps to protect and embiggen Andrew as well. Then, in the past month, there was suddenly a flurry of conversation about how Charles would force Andrew out of Royal Lodge just by cutting off his allowance. Andrew huffed and puffed about how Charles would basically have to pay him to leave because of all of the updates he’s done to Royal Lodge, and Andrew even suggested that he would sue Charles if he was evicted without reimbursement. All of that happened way before we knew that Charles had personally offered Frogmore Cottage to Andrew. Apparently, the Sussexes weren’t told that either.
Prince Andrew is said to be resisting the ‘down-grade’ from his state-subsidised 30-room Royal Lodge in Windsor despite telling friends he fears he will be unable to afford its upkeep if the King cuts the purse strings. The Duke of York is set to lose £250,000-a-year in funding from the King as part of a shake-up of private royal finances with the monarch offering him the keys to Frogmore Cottage after evicting Harry and Meghan.
Andrew currently pays a reported £250-a-week for a state-subsidised 30-room mansion complete with 98 acres of land and a swimming pool – and is not keen to leave it when his £250,000-a-year grant may be axed from as early as April. It is understood Prince Andrew has been offered the keys to their five-bedroom home, a stone’s throw from Windsor Castle. But he is said to be resisting the ‘downgrade’ from 30-room, seven-bedroom Royal Lodge.
The Sussexes are believed to have not been offered an alternative property on any royal estate. A spokesman for the couple in the US last night confirmed that they had been asked to move out. They said in a statement: ‘We can confirm the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been requested to vacate their residence at Frogmore Cottage.’
Sources claimed they had no idea that Frogmore was offered to Andrew until it appeared in the papers.
Buckingham Palace refused to comment last night. A source said any discussions would be a ‘private family matter’ – and one insider said the move was about ‘money, not malice’.
About “money, not malice” – Harry reimbursed the royal estate whatever for the cost of renovations. He was paid up on the lease for Frogmore. How is this about money and not malice when it comes to the Sussexes? Now, I agree, that it’s mostly a financial issue with Andrew. Charles is beginning the process of cutting off Andrew or putting severe limitations on his allowance. But the thing is, Andrew is sort of right – Charles will have to pay him to get him out of his cushy lease. I would hope that the same is true for the Sussexes and Frogmore, that they will get the money back that they paid into the property. Which means this whole catastrophe will end up costing the Royal Estates millions of pounds just to break two leases (out of malice).
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Cover Images, Backgrid.
This family is garbage and trash
Please don’t insult garbage and trash. At least they have some usefulness. You can recycle trash or make compost from some garbage. The parasitic RF serves no useful purpose. They are not even useful to themselves and often fail at the most basic of things such as being decent human being.
They’d make great compost though, they’re all full of isht.
Why is sex offender Andrew always cared for and protected while Harry is dumped on and abused?? This ill treatment of Harry started long before Meghan or this recent book. Charles and Camilla are criminals for how they have treated Harry since his mother’s death. No one was nurturing, lovingly guiding, or caring for that 12 year old boy. He had no one. We all used to think his older brother looked out for him, but now we know that was never true. Also not true is this belief the Brits have that Americans hate Meghan and Harry for turning on the royals. Americans think the monarchy is a relic and the royals are circus clowns. (Camilla and her flying monkeys aren’t even royal.) Most Americans are neutral on the Sussex topic. Nice Americans hope they will find happiness. No American understands why the Brits aren’t thrilled that Harry and Meghan want to financially support their own family without taking tax payer money.
Oh, uh huh. Sure. Whatever they say.
I’m sure Andrew’s mother left him more than enough money to pay for upkeep.
His father also probably left him a healthy sum.
Just trying to make sure I understand:
So, Frogmore Cottage is the only other property the Royal Family own?
That’s why if Andrew has to leave Royal Lodge, he needs to go to FC, because not a single other property exists?
(Note that I’m saying this argument suggests “not a single other property exists,” not “is available,” because frankly, FC is not available as it is currently leased to the king’s son and his family.)
This family, man. How do they keep track of all their petty BS?
They absolutely do not want us to know the extent of their holdings, because Frogmore Cottage was not and is not Andrew’s only option. Prince Peggington and his wife already have four properties to themselves. Why on Earth would they need to add the Royal Lodge or Frogmore to the list?
Just think about it. The optics of Peggy taking Frogmore Cottage were SO bad that they introduced Adelaide into the realm of possibilities. Otherwise they probably would have broken the Sussexes’ lease then and there.
More swampland to sell. These people don’t know when to quit.
Lol “this is about money not malice” sure, Jan
I know, if it smells and looks like malice and vindictiveness, it is what it is. Chuckie had this plan for Pedrew all along. Chuckie simply hated the fact that QEII looked at Pedrew as her favorite and he is still angry about it.
Chuckie is so twisted in his brain with his upbringing as well as his first wife that he could win a prize for a contortionist with his emotional issues. Chuckie is holding onto almost 7 decades of resentment and jealousy!! May I suggest BetterUp Chuckie??
well, there would be one lease break due to malice. i don’t consider breaking andrew’s lease malice. that’s well deserved.
Right? Stick him in Nott Cott but put out some Beware of the Rapist signs.
Sure, Jan.
Agreed. Brand new shiny gold carriage, to replace an existing shiny gold carriage anyone?
Nope, miss us with the back pedaling Chuckles, we know it was you who pooped the bed. Have fun dealing with the fallout.
@Khate’s Mourning Wig – I came on this thread to say exactly the same thing. Charles thought he was “getting two for the price of one.” When instead there’s been a huge backlash about evicting Harry and Meghan. KingCharlesthecruel and/or Camillathehomewrecker have been trending since this statement was released.
I loathe Andrew with a passion but, part of me wants him to put his petulant, arrogant, entitled self to good use and steadfastly refuse to move from RL.
Ooh it would be fun to watch Andrew throw that particular tantrum!
And I got on Twitter yesterday for the first time in weeks and loved the dragging they were getting!
Since Andrew is already in residence, he would be harder to evict.
If Andrew has to be dragged out shrieking and foaming at the mouth, I hope somebody gets it on video.
Charles loves to claim credit for paying for things he doesn’t pay for, which he then has to “cut back” on to be a frugal monarch. I can’t believe this gets creditably reported without verification outside of the trash British tabloids.
Yeah like when he said he helped his son buy his house in California.
Willy and waity have 5 homes currently. They received one when they became the prince and princess of wales. It’s called Llwynywermod.
It’s already way too much. But chuckle and cruella take away the only home Harry has in the uk. I hope a thousand eggs land on their ugly heads at the clown show.
That is a waste of an excellent food item. No — use water balloons filled with contaminated Tory water.
H&M should have a highly publicized tag sale, like Martha Stewart did, and then donate the proceeds to a homelessness charity. What a vindictive baby Charles is.
Why aren’t they just trading homes between William and Andrew? Adelaide Cottage for Royal Lodge. Doesn’t Andrew also have apartment at St. James Palace? What they are doing to the Sussexes is pure vindictiveness when you do the math on the entire property portfolio and who has what property in that family. Evicting the Sussexes is bad regardless of how many ways they dance around the subject. The math does not work out KC.
Right? Why not a clean swap bw Adelaide and Royal Lodge? It’s funny how none of the royal reporters are mentioning that. Invisible contract. It’s so obvious, as Meghan would say(netflix doc moment).
Beatrice, Alexandra, and Anne have townhomes at SLP. Alexandra and Anne have theirs free, Beatrice’s rent was paid by Andrew (QEII), and now may be paid by her Starter Husband. Andrew has/had a free 2 or 4 bedroom apartment in Buckingham Palace, as do Edward and Sophie.
SJP not SLP.
@notasugarhere I thought I read recently that Andrew was given an apartment at SJP to replace the BP apartment they took from him. Charles is retaliating period.
Buckingham Palace is currently under renovation, so KCIII and QC are staying at Clarence House. Andrew probably was offered an apartment at SJP during the renovations, although I don’t know why he needs a London residence when he’s no longer a working royal.
The argument on another post is that W&K won’t give up Adelaide because they still need it for K’s separation home. W gets Royal Lodge for himself.
While I do not think for a minute that Meghan is “money obsessed”, as the trash BM wants us to believe, I think she is very conscious of her own (and her family’s) interests and would not let Harry to walk away without a compensation for the reno and the lease money. At least I whish she would not…
Malice should come with a price tag and Malevolent Charles should have to repay every penny Harry spent on Frogmore.
That is the last thing Meghan should do.
This is not about Meghan, it is about Charles’s attitude towards his brother and his son.
It was a simmering resentment for decades with Andrew who never accepted Charles’s treatment towards him.
He would go to the mother who will accede.
If one listens to some of William’s nastiness towards Harry, the are echoes of Charles towards Andrew.
The present conversation around Andrew with the invisible contract was similar towards Diana and Harry.
The pattern is there for all with eyes to see.
It is of an insecured individual who is triggered by an insubordinate’s success.
It has become a pathology in William but is very much a part of his father.
There maybe real threats to the existence to the monarchy, it is not from within, i.e the spares.
One does not react to such behaviour, one walk away from it.
Walking away from such behaviors only serve to normalize, it should always be called out, actions and consequences.
I think the rule of spouses deal with spouses parents is the right play here. Meghan called them “her husbands family.” They made it clear that they do not see her as part of the family. Meghan deals with Toxic Tom, harry deals with Toxic Charles. Then they can wash the stink off of them and move on with their lives.
They should do a joint project in the future related to surviving toxic families. Their resilience has been truly remarkable. Their ordeal would have broken the bonds of many couples. I think they have some valuable insights to share that could benefit others going through the same thing.
If it is indeed about money, not malice, then the Sussexes should absolutely be reimbursed for the renovations for which they paid. And for which, they are not receiving the benefit, as Charles is evicting them. Charles should not get a windfall of millions of dollars of repairs to Frogmore, so he can hand it off to someone else.
I agree. Taxpayer money spent, is taxpayer money spent. When Meghan and Harry paid it back, did any of that money go back to the “taxpayers”? Or a fund that is now controlled by Charles to do as he pleases? I hope the Sussexes got an itemized list of every pound in the renovation because at this point, the RF probably just inflates and throws out numbers since we know they can’t account for sh!t.
If it’s all about money not malice then he should talk to Katy about her compulsive coat purchases and wiglets. That would save millions I’m sure.
True but Chuckie doesn’t have the purse strings to the Duchy money anymore, she and Won’t have it to themselves. They will be broke by 2025.
Broke and busted. Fingers crossed.
Charles, the Malevolent. There’s never been a good King Charles. And C-Rex III is no exception.
1) Why this sudden concern about Frogmore being vacant much of the year since H&M’s exit (from another piece posted here today). How long had it been vacant prior to H&M taking over the lease? No one gave a crap about it until H&M took up residence.
2) Why are malice and money mutually exclusive; why can’t both be true at the same time?
The truth is, all this talk about Royal properties and real estate simply reminds the public of just how much property and leases these tools own, operate and manipulate. Glamorous slum lords.
The Monarch does not own the Windsor Estate but the Monarch does control who lives there.
Prior to the Sussexes leasing the “gifted” Frogmore Cottage, it was five separate apartments for Windsor Castle staff. Frogmore Cottage had been allowed to get “run down” and was on a list of Crown Estate properties to be renovated sooner rather than later as it was almost to the point of being structurally unlivable.
The point I wish to make is that Frogmore Cottage was scheduled for complete renovation way before it was offered to the Sussexes. Therefore, the Crown Estate was scheduled to spend the 3.1 million dollars on Frogmore Cottage renovation whether the Sussexes lived there as tenants or five Windsor Castle staff lived there as tenants.
It was scheduled to be renovated, as you stated.
Just the basics were paid for by the crown.
All this information is readily available on line in the yearly financial reports yet the media print half truths.
Great point(s)! So they essentially got H&M to pay for renos they knew Frogmore Cottage needed in order to remain viable. Nice fleece job, or should we say nice Golden Fleece job. These sneaks could sell ocean front property in Ohio.
@CJT – EXACTLY! Once the Sussexes resigned as full time working Royals “They” got H&M to pay for renos they knew Frogmore Cottage needed in order to remain viable.
I would say “They” is the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail ran at least one story a day on the cost of Frogmore Cottage renovations for almost a year. After the Sussexes paid back the renovation money, the Daily Fail began harping on them to pay back the entire cost of the wedding.
@BTB, the huge wedding Meghan and Harry didn’t even want.
@lanne – EXACTLY!
I only have very foul words to describe Chuck, so I’ll spare you guys. But WOW are he and his harpy hag disgusting people.
“Harpy hag”, HA!!!
By cutting off his allowance, Chuck is going to push Andy back into the arms of his shady but wealthy friends.
Also, what’s going to happen with all the money being saved by these cost-cutting measures? It’s well known that the sovereign grant can’t be cut so who’s getting the funds these savings are opening up? And why does the taxpayer need to continue funding at this astronomical level when they are no longer funding a full stable of royals?
Funding “upkeep” on Buckingham Palace and the Windsor Castle Estate is sorta like the USA government (Parks Department???) funding the “upkeep” on The White House and Camp David.
The difference is that the monarch can decide how the funding is allocated and spent. The problem comes when the monarch agrees to allocating funds and spending on repairs that may not be necessary. This is how Buckingham Palace got into such bad shape. The Monarch did not authorize repairs to Buckingham Palace when they needed to be done and spent the money on renovations to other Crown Estate properties they may not have required repairs and/or cosmetic renovations.
The fact that Charles and his advisors felt brave and secure enough to evict the Sussexes without thinking about the possibility that the Sussexes could/should sue him for reimbursements, while refusing to evict Andrew because Andrew is threatening to sue him for reimbursements of Royal Lodge shows how frightened Charles is of what his brother could do to his reputation compared to his son. Andrew won’t go away without a fight. Charles thought he met his match with William, once his office started playing the same media games but he found his match with Andrew. Maybe that’s the reason Charles pr team mainly went after Edward & Sophie back in the days. He’s terrified of Andrew, as he should! Something tells me Andrew isn’t the only pedophile running freely about Buckingham palace.
Yep, and I have a feeling Chuck is worse, if anything. Look who his favorite uncle was, and who his best friends were.
And why couldn’t he have shipped Pedrew in on of the countless proprieties the Crown owns? Better, somewhere smaller AND isolated. But no, he had to publicly stick it to his son like the immature petty turd Chuch is, which obviously ended up making him look bad.
Not out of malice my arse, now they’re trying to backpedal? Too late.
I don’t have high enough waders for the bull sh*t they are spewing.. they truly think people are idiots🙄.
Pay the £2.4m back and evict a market price paying tenant is for pure petty vindictiveness and racist hate!
Exactly!! It’s not about prudent money management. It’s vindictiveness, period!!!
Cessily, my thoughts exactly. What money will they be saving on Frogmore Cottage when they will be paid the same amount for lease payments from an outsider, but will get ???? from Andrew. KFC screwed this up. I hope M&H fight for the money they paid that should have been paid by the Sovereign Grant. I wish Scobie or Hunt would take this on and outline it to the public. The SG will get LESS money with KFC’s scheme.
Dear me , hard to believe that it is about money , not malice when Charles is drawing 20 million pounds yearly from the Duchy of Lancaster on top of the sovereign grant.
Charles’ move to evict Prince Harry and family from their UK home at Frogmore is petty and reckless from the security angle
“It’s about money” he says as he sits on a looted treasure trove and has special new gold carriage and thrones made for his chubbly. Does he think we can’t see all of this?
What complete and utter bull sht. HELL YES it’s about malice. Malice, spite and toys being thrown out of the pram by Charlie chinless. The most weak, ineffectual father/King that ever walked the earth. What’s the matter Charlie boy, can’t you stand the fact that your youngest son is more of a man than you and your eldest son will ever be. Neither you or BULLYAM is fit to tie Harry’s shoes. Who are you giving Andy’s pad to, which one of your step children have you lined up for it? Two things Charlie boy, ONE Harry has a legally binding lease, he also paid millions for the repairs and upgrades to Frogmore, so you better get your wallet open and TWO, you reap what you sow, so please look forward to what’s coming your way because Harry held back in his first book, well you have just, with your spite ensured that volume two is on its way now, and it’s coming with receipts, so you, cowmilla, Billy bully and botox barbie had better have your hard hats ready
Oh so they plan to pay back the out of pocket cost to Harry for the Reno then?
That would be the honorable thing to do, but fo not hold your breath.
Charles wants to make it nearly impossible for the Sussexes to visit the UK. First he pulled their security. Now he pulled Frogmore. You know he was triggered by their mini European tour last year.
A fools errand. Harry was born there.
Charles better pay back Harry and Meghan their money.
While I think this is Chuck trying cut Andrew off he won’t give up without a fight – he won’t leave Royal Lodge without a BIG BIG kiss off from the King. Andrew has dirt on his brother and if anyone is going to dish that dirt its Andrew – he will do whatever it takes to maintain his lifestyle. Chuck and Peggy better watch their backs.
not to root for that P.O.S but I hope he gives C run for his money and makes him come up off MILLIONS to get him to move and shut up.
We know what Charles thinks about his grandchildren now. Apparenty, those children aren’t worth the safety and security of their own family. Really, every day is opposite day over there. There’s no logical, financial reason to ask them to vacate their lease but malice.
I suppose the two toddlers willbe worthy of security after they earn their right to be called Prince and Princess. Was the 2.4 million paid by the Sussexes a Poll Tax?
I hope that people keep hammering the fact that the Sussexes paid for the renovations to make that place habitable–to emphaize that they met a standard that no other royal has ever been asked to meet.
If Harry and Meghan can write a book about surviving toxic relatives, Charles could write a book called “How to Screw Up Your Family and Ruin Your Coronation Before It Happens”
The RF has a horrible communications team. Trying to say Charles is doing this because he’s strapped for cash makes no sense. Instead of trying to tie everything up in a bow before the coronation (I think that was the talking point yesterday), all they’re doing is creating more fallout. And this is before Andrew starts really making trouble. If you want him to keep quiet and fade away, this is not the way to make it happen.
Since these are all Crown Estate properties, does that mean that there’s publicly available information about leases and such? I also remember that after H&M paid back for the Frogmore renovations that money appeared in some sort of yearly review, so does that mean that we will get something similar after this goes down and we’ll get to see if they get part of their money back?
Why is KC only strapped for cash when it comes to his son, DIL and bi racial grandchildren? The Rail Heil are spinning this as financial prudence!! when it is vindictive revenge to make them feel unsafe and unwanted in his own country by this own dad!! Tabs are even adding that said eviction makes their Chubbly appearance unlikely. KC is so cheap did he stick both the eviction notice and invitation in the same envelope to save on a stamp?! Majority of callers on Jeremy Vine this am were on Harry’s side. Tabs wanted to benefit from endless coverage of H and M at the Chubbly but now it is NOT going to happen. K C is the real loser here!!
@ACE
The government’s website (GOV.UK) publishes the accounts/reports/statements from the HM Treasury and The Crown Estate.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/the-crown-estate-annual-reports-and-accounts
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-crown-estate-office-annual-report-and-financial-statements-2021-to-2022
This is all I could find on leasing/grace & favour arrangements for various properties at Windsor. It outlines the financial & potential compensation arrangements, if the lease was ended, from when Andrew leased Royal Lodge in 2003.
https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2005/04/royal_property_leases.pdf
Some random thoughts with the Andrew related stuff:
1). I think the Andrew move is to get the dual winged house for K&W so they can live together-apart ‘co-parenting’ 🙄 like Andy and Fergie said they’ve been doing since their divorce. If Wills does ever decide divorce is the way he wants to go the precedence for this bizarre living arrangement, in this exact property, already exists so less chance of any public or Middleton outcry.
2) I also think the Andrew move is very much Camilla revenge driven. Andrew was really awful & dismissive of her when she was just a mistress. We can all imagine exactly what kind of a rank pulling, misogynistic di*k he was with her behind the scenes. He probably never imagined in a million years that she’d get this far up in the firm because it’s unprecedented. Through Charles, and his pettiness & resentment, she will now be making him continually pay for every slight and every crude joke/word he’s ever embarrassed her with.
3) The Andrew move is also to separate him from his last remaining ally, Fergie. Their ‘separate wing’ – ‘co-parenting’ – ‘co-grand-parenting’ excuses for her living off the Windsor gravy train have finally run out. There’s literally no reasonable excuse left for an ex-wife to be living there anymore, especially to move alongside the ex-husband to a much smaller property. Andy has no one at all there in his corner once she’s gone and is left totally dependant on his brother’s largesse & whim which is just how C&C would want it to be.
Camilla was not just mistress she gaslit Diana every step of the way. I think she deserved people being dismissive about her. If Charles predeceases her she will lose influence and all her maneuvers will be for nothing. Andrew and Sarah were fond of Diana. Camilla s behavior is shameless and spineless Charles throws his own son. Daughter in law and grandchildren under a bus to please camilla
They prob aware now how the real world is reacting to his fuckery. Now they want to pedal back but people see them for who they are and they can put the bandaid back on. They are petty , vindictive assholes who think that by doing this they will prevent Harry and his family from ever visiting England again without their permission. I wish for them to burn slowly in hell when the time comes. This family is trash and truly evil. England is suffering and they are living in luxury and concentrated in destroying someone who is no longer in the fold.
Just a random thought here… Spare is a smashing success worldwide. Many people now see the designation of “Spare” being Harry’s birthright b/c he is second born, is just so wrong .
Chucky and Wank must be aware that the only one with charisma, humility, personality, charm, or magnetism is Harry. He could effectively head the monarchy and would be amazing at engaging /respecting the general public input. He also has a glamorous wife who also has a passion for service to others.
Anyone reading this book, or seeing the doc, interviews or even Harry’s work events, realize this.
Harry and Meghan do not need the rf but the rf sure as hell need them. Too bad Chucky, Cowmilla, Kkkkhate and Wank’s jealousy got in the way
I really believe this is why Chucky and Wank are so angry, petty and vengeful.
It won’t be worth the drama for them but I wish the Sussexes would sue to get their money back. I’m sure the king won’t take it personally after all it’s about money not malice.
Take all the royal bs out of it and you’ve basically got a tenant paying millions to upgrade a home they do not own. Those upgrades have added value to that property enriching its owner even if it’s just on paper. At least until the monarchy is dismantled and all this excess real estate gets market values put on them.
So Chucky has to fork out almost 10million quid to reimburse both Andrew and Harry for this shit show and lose £18000 a month in commercial rent from Harry . Yeah sure it’s about money and not malice. I would have believed them more if they had Jacked up Harry and Andrew’s rent
So maybe he can cut the cost of his Con party
I think that the Sussexes’ children being collateral damage is what’s upsetting people.
Imagine being a landlord and saying to your tenants, “not only do you have to pay a large sum for rent each month, you have to pay me back for the renovations for the house that I, as the landlord should pay for”. Anyone who has ever rented knows that is illegal and can go to their city to report them but the fact that they are family makes it so much worse. I am glad H&M at least will no longer have to pay rent for a place they haven’t lived in for years but give them back the money they paid to make the house (which was several servant’s quarters that they had to renovate to take it from a multiplex to a single-family home) which was given as a “gift” habitable. At this point, with all the money H&M had to put into that house, it should be theirs so give them the option to keep it or sell it. Any way you slice it, the Windsors are crappy landlords.
I’m thinking this is not just about revenge. Harry is a counselor of state. But I believe it is dependent upon him having a house in the UK. Does anyone have more info on this?
Something was amiss these last few months-Beatrice and Eugenie bought their mother a place in London recently-all the talk about taking Royal Lodge from Andrew-this undercurrent has been going on for awhile-taking Harry and Meghan’s Frogmore cottage is for malice-some said a while back if Harry wrote anything negative about Cowzilla Charles will not hesitate to respond-well he has responded-it is being reported that a day or two after Spare was released this decision was made-all malice and hatred in my book.
How gauche and middle class to be worrying about money. Is the frugal KFC worried about money when it comes to the conanation and the trooping?
I was watching CBS this morning when Vlad brought up the eviction story. I know CBS is neutral party for Prince Harry. However the story was a big deal and very well put together. The gist was how can you evict someone with a paid lease and who paid for the repairs of a domicile in need of repair. Vlad, Tony , & Gayle all stated that a Father would not do this to his son and family that this was just wrong. So I think more journalist are realizing that Harry was right to leave if they are doing this publicly