Donald Trump did a “live interview” on Twitter last night, with Elon Musk acting as interviewer/moderator. The whole thing was a catastrophe from start to finish. It was supposed to start at 8 pm but the whole thing glitched out and Musk and Trump didn’t even get on X Spaces until 9pm-ish, and Musk claimed that the technical issues were part of a “massive DDOS attack on X.”
Honestly, part of me wonders if the past five days of chaos from Trump has been about trying to get attention. That might sound stupid, but hear me out: Donald Trump is stupid. He’s not acting with some kind of campaign strategy these days, he’s just mad that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz are getting so much attention. Trump is the ultimate famewhore and he’s devised an idiotic plan to wrest control of several newscycles. Well, that’s what happened here – I’m sure Trump’s performance at this live event will be the story today? But it’s not good news for Trump, because he was slurring his words and lisping a lot, plus he said a lot of bonkers sh-t (as always). I’m not making fun of him for having a lisp or whatever this is, but I will make fun of him for sounding like a cartoon character (Daffy Duck?) while he rants about immigrants coming from insane asylums. He also called Kamala Harris “Camilla.” LOL. Some lowlights or whatever:
Why does Trump sound like Donald Duck? This lisp thing is distracting #ElonXTrump pic.twitter.com/jJ1AHhi5t7
— sidney (@hcesd) August 13, 2024
Trump sounds like he has a lisp pic.twitter.com/3C8fhUmfdE
— Brennan Murphy (@brenonade) August 13, 2024
"It'll be unbelievable" — Trump says one of his first acts will be to "close up the Department of Education" and cites states like Iowa and Idaho as examples of places that are doing well. Elon says he's making a good point. pic.twitter.com/CrgfCF4oaD
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 13, 2024
OK, seriously there are two options. His dentures are falling out or he had a stroke. Dude cannot pronounce words at all. Check it. 😱 pic.twitter.com/XoxYvRrt3r
— Jim Stewartson, Counterinsurgent 🇺🇸🇺🇦💙🎈 (@jimstewartson) August 13, 2024
AUDIO
Trump tells Elon Musk that he thinks that Kamala Harris’s new Time Magazine cover looks more like Melania Trump than Harris.
He pronounces Kamala as “Camilla” here, like the Queen Consort of the UK. pic.twitter.com/8ie4Fxaz9k
— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) August 13, 2024
Scab recognize scab. https://t.co/lDDUSp2XF4
— AFL-CIO ✊ (@AFLCIO) August 13, 2024
Our statement on… whatever that was pic.twitter.com/bOZfUu8rbk
— Kamala HQ (@KamalaHQ) August 13, 2024
Photos courtesy of Cover Images, Backgrid.
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- West Palm Beach, FL – Former President DONALD J. TRUMP and Former First Lady MELANIA TRUMP walk out of the polling place in West Palm Beach after voting on election day. ”This is going to be an important election. Go out and vote, no matter who you vote for”, said President Trump. Pictured: Donald Trump BACKGRID USA 8 NOVEMBER 2022 USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- Paris, FRANCE – SpaceX, Twitter and electric car maker Tesla CEO Elon Musk and Publicis Groupe Supervisory Board Chairman Maurice Levy during a panel discussion at Viva Technology (VivaTech 2023) at Paris Expo Porte de Versailles in Paris, France. Pictured: Elon Musk, Maurice Levy BACKGRID USA 16 JUNE 2023 BYLINE MUST READ: Best Image / BACKGRID USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- Paris, FRANCE – SpaceX, Twitter and electric car maker Tesla CEO Elon Musk and Publicis Groupe Supervisory Board Chairman Maurice Levy during a panel discussion at Viva Technology (VivaTech 2023) at Paris Expo Porte de Versailles in Paris, France. Pictured: Elon Musk, Maurice Levy BACKGRID USA 16 JUNE 2023 BYLINE MUST READ: Best Image / BACKGRID USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- Las Vegas, NV – Former US President Donald Trump speaks during a campaign event at Big League Dreams Las Vegas in Las Vegas. Trump’s back-to-back wins in Iowa and New Hampshire have prompted US President Joe Biden to accelerate his campaign and try to reverse dim perceptions of his leadership. Pictured: Donald J. Trump BACKGRID USA 27 JANUARY 2024 BYLINE MUST READ: ACES / BACKGRID USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- Las Vegas, NV – Former US President Donald Trump speaks during a campaign event at Big League Dreams Las Vegas in Las Vegas. Trump’s back-to-back wins in Iowa and New Hampshire have prompted US President Joe Biden to accelerate his campaign and try to reverse dim perceptions of his leadership. Pictured: Donald J. Trump BACKGRID USA 27 JANUARY 2024 BYLINE MUST READ: ACES / BACKGRID USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- Former President Donald J. Trump appears in court for his arraignment, in New York City. According to CNN: Former President Donald Trump personally pleaded not guilty to 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree in a Manhattan court after hearing charges against him. The charges stem from an investigation into a hush money payment made to adult film actress Stormy Daniels during the 2016 presidential campaign. Featuring: Donald Trump Where: New York, New York, United States When: 04 Apr 2023 Credit: POOL via CNP/startraksphoto.com
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- President Donald Trump arrived at Trump Tower following his testimony on the stand in the E. Jean Carroll trial. Featuring: Donald Trump Where: New York City, New York, United States When: 25 Jan 2024 Credit: TheNews2/Cover Images
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- Former US President Donald J Trump makes an early appearance on the first night of the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Fiserv Forum This is Trump’s first appearance since a rally in Pennsylvania, where he sustained injuries from an alleged bullet grazing his ear. Trump also named United States Senator JD Vance (Republican of Ohio) as his Vice Presidential running mate. Featuring: former US President Donald J Trump Where: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States When: 15 Jul 2024 Credit: CNP/INSTARimages
Maybe his dentures were coming loose?
My father passed away this May after complications from lewey body syndrome-a combination of Parkinson’s and dementia. Before he was diagnosed, I always thought sundowning meant they got less energy and became more catatonic as it got later, but he got extremely verbose and would rant on and on about the most random subjects. He also had this exact same lisp that trump has in this clip the later the night got. I’d bet a good amount of money this is Trump displaying signs of strong dementia.
I completely agree. It also ties in with his late night social media rants. He has a harder time in the evenings.
It could be drugs or sundowning, a condition l saw with my elderly mother where her dementia and confusion got worse at night.
My dad also died from complications due to Lewy Body Dementia. It’s a real b*stard and I’m so sorry for your loss.
Yes, after her stroke, and when she was put in assisted living (she lived on the other side of the country and didn’t want to move closer to me), she’d often call me up at night to rant on for hours. Her healthcare team explained that this is how sundowning manifested in her.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe that’s why it took so long to start, little baby Donnie’s dentures were loose and no one could fix them. 😆
Maybe it was late starting because they had a few drinks first.
Trump doesn’t drink. Unless Kamala has driven him to it.
Yeh, apparently he doesn’t drink; but, wow, did he sound like drunk granpa or what?
I think Adderall, cocaine or ketamine (or some combination) may be the culprit. The orange menace has been looking like he is on the verge of a heart attack lately. Please follow Heather Cox Richardson. Her commentary is stellar.
He might not drink but he definitely does the nose candy. It might be Adderall and not coke now that he’s pushing 80 but no one can convince me he’s not on something.
!00% we should all be reading Heather Cox Richardson daily. Nobody does current events combined with historical context like she can. And as far as drugs are concerned, please google “Pervitin”.
Agree. Trump’s clearly taking some kind of methamphetamine (Adderall), which actually has a legitimate medical use for treatment of ADHD, but with all his escalating hyper-manic behaviour, I think he’s gone off a cliff with overuse. Also, he sniffs constantly which is a dead giveaway that he’s snorting it. Maybe Junior is sharing his coke stash with dad too. What a pair…
@Jaded: Adderall is NOT methamphetamine.
Thanks for the reminder to read Heather Cox Richardson. Should do that more often. Don’t ‘follow’ anyone, not on SM. Didn’t listen or watch the 2 bros lovefest, but this did remind me of Mary L Trump’s book ‘Too Much and Never Enough,’ where she talks about father Fred Trump’s mental decline.
I will look her up. In the meantime, Mary Trump’s blog, The Good in US, is worth reading. She has the orange one down to a T. No holds barred. She knows his persona and the people that “like” him.
https://www.marytrump.org/
A year ago I had a relative ask me why I didn’t like Trump. My response was, I’ve never liked him. Didn’t like him in the 80s, 90s and the years before he became president. The use of the small p is intentional.
It was a female relative. I was shook. gobsmacked. You have daughters and you’re asking me why I don’t like him. This doesn’t make sense. The same conversation came up again two weeks ago. Now I’m like, you also have a granddaughter, did you not read Project 2025? Is that the life you want your girls to live? Mind boggling.
I thought the late start was the EU disinformation warning
The Harris campaign surrogates I watched on YouTube yesterday were all on message: there is something wrong with Donald Trump; he seems to be in cognitive decline. It was pretty obvious that they were delivering the talking point of the day. Donald Trump’s mental state is something the campaign is starting to lean into. He’s not fit, physically or mentally, to be president. This “whatever it was” certainly bolsters that strategy. And his remarks about firing striking workers should be made into a campaign ad played on a loop in the rust belt.
Oh that’s been happening for a while. See also Trump calling immigrants mad, because he’s apparently confusing mental asylums with asylum seekers.
He really does think people who are asylum seekers are “escaping from insane asylums” doesn’t he? He literally said that, again. The ignorance is breathtaking.
Came here to say that very thing — he’s so stupid he doesn’t understand what asylum is.
He’s also mentioning credit cards lately – some have speculated he heard about immigrants seeking “visas”
Trump’s laughter about firing employees and Musk being anti-union is going to cost him votes. The unions are not happy.
I’m fine with him talking because he’s turning more and more people against him.
Also, Musk as an interviewer is peak comedy.
He’s becoming more and more unhinged.
see also his rant on Harris’s crowd at the airport being AI only for people there and CNN(amongst others) proving him wrong. He’s so jealous.
Also in twitter’s interview he apparently said global warming meant more waterfront properties?!?!. Does he not realise his beloved mar-a-lago will be gone? Also I wonder how people who live close to the ocean will feel about this…
Ah, yes! More waterfront properties. Something all of us dream about every day. How can someone who is so out of touch have so much appeal to working people? It’s the greatest mystery of all when it comes to Trump. I know about the racism but even so…¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I know as an American, my leading issue is crowd size. This is very important to me because whoever has the larger crowd size, gets my vote so thankyou Trump for getting to the bottom of this deception!
The man is just so fucking far gone smdh…
I love this post Kitten! It’s perfection!
Yeah!
Now if anyone would be talking policies, they would talk about the great job creation Biden/Harris have initiated, that will work further wonders down the line.
Except we have this clown (not saying Trump should stop speaking because he keeps making enemies, this time of union-workers).
The “maintenance worker” who accused the Harris campaign of using AI to boost her crowd size is…guess what…an ardent MAGA Trump humper and avowed conspiracy theory nutbar. Wonder how much he got paid to do that?
That waterfront properties comment should be turned into an ad and played non-stop in Florida.
Wrestling free from everyone who tried to stop him tired Diaper D out on top of being forced to speak past his bedtime?
Inwardly I can’t understand how anyone can support this!
“…whatever that was” 😂🤣💀
I’ve read in several places (including BBC News, so this isn’t just some Twitter rando talking) that a DDos attack affecting just a single feature on a website is rather unlikely, but in any case, the glitchiness is definitely burying the lede. Even my MAGAt cousin admitted that the speech impediment was super distracting.
A DDoS attack takes the entire site down, not just one section. There were no issues anywhere else on twitter at the time.
Apparently, some Twitter X employee said Elon’s lying about a DDOS attack.
Exactly, @seaflower.
Which also tells you something about Elno’s “technical prowess” – if he ever had any, it’s sorely out of date.
@AMB Elno has none. Just buying companies that do and leeching them dry.
A DISTRIBUTED denial of service (DDOS) attack that hits only two (2) nodes 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The whole Harris statement is a treat: “…on full display for those unlucky enough to listen in tonight during whatever that was…”
“self-obsessed rich guys who will sell out the middle class and cannot run a livestream in the year 2024.” !!!
I love how Kamala responded – and there is such a broader lesson in all of that. For so long, Democrats have been sounding the alarm about what a danger Trump is. I’ve been right there with them, telling my kids and anyone who would listen that Trump presents a real and present danger to the Republic. And it didn’t work – Trump loves dictators and many of his followers see his unhinged dictatorship tendencies as a sign of strength.
But ridicule? Making him look like an idiot? Using humor to poke fun at his paper tiger? THAT works.
As a lifelong Democrat who can, at times, be way too serious, this is a good reminder that sometimes, we need to inject a bit of humor to make the serious points. I need to remind myself to “lighten up, Francis.”
Seeing how Trump/Vance/republicans call others the democrats using weird isn’t really a insult.
But they are mad, so it’s working!
Yes, I too am feeling the joy from the Harris/Walz campaign
Exactly! What a brilliant strategy this has been. She’s in his head. He is flailing. Omg he sounds like the crazy racist grandpa who rants at Thanksgiving dinner before someone blesses the food, and everyone at the table is actually just praying this is his last Thanksgiving so they can finally be free of him. He is that creepy relative you never leave alone with the kids, or that neighbor you say about “no sweetie, we don’t trick or treat at that house”
“we don’t trick or treat at that house” – first belly laugh of the day, thank you!
LOL “Not that house, kids” is very much the vibe he gives. I remember 4 years ago when everyone was using the Crazy Guy on the Subway analogy and it was more along the lines of “just don’t make eye contact”.
But yeah we know that they’re very dangerous but also, SO. F*CKING. WEIRD.
DDoS attacks usually go for the WHOLE platform or system – not specific areas, this is their 2nd ‘hacking’ claim so they are clearing setting up a new narrative here to accuse the left/Dems of being behind it all.
Admittedly I don’t know a lot about hacking but hackers hack with a purpose and if it had been one of the organised hacker groups they would have disputed it in a bigger way i.e. taken control of the interview to post their own message. Anonymous do this – they did it on Russian state TV.
Every accusation is a confession. They hacked (or directed the hacking) of Clinton and who knows who else. And they would happily hack anyone else if they had the capability.
I love the Harris campaign responses to the menace’s unhinged stunts. Addressing them in short, snarky little releases is the right thing. It points out how ridiculous whatever happened is, and then leaves everyone free laugh at it and move on.
The ddos attack that was suddenly fixed seems implausible for sure. I can’t decide though—are they coordinated enough to come up with some sort of hacking storyline here? Or was he coked out of his mind and they needed time to sober him up? A little of both? I’m just glad the Ds are talking back finally.
And now they are claiming someone “broke into an RNC office” (sure, Jan…rolls eyes).
So much desperation to distract from right wing people waking up to see the truth about Trump…
I know what Harris really wanted to say was “cannot run a livestream in the year 2024 of our lord Beyoncé”.
Mic Drop
Boom!
I was thinking the same thing! LOL
😂😂😂
I love this so much! And their tweet was perfect.
He always sounds incoherent and inarticulate, but that was something else. I only listened to a few clips, couldn’t stomach anymore.
Cognitive decline on full display the past few weeks, and barely a peep from mainstream media.
I watched it on a YouTube channel of someone who streamed it so that I didn’t have to. Trump couldn’t pronounce “stupid” he kept saying “soopid” and saying “shates”, instead of “states”. It was funny, but sad that the media made such a big deal out of Joe Biden’s age, but have given this guy a pass. Trump’s mental decline has been on full display for all the world to see.
And let’s see. Will the msm write articles and talk for days about his mental decline and cognitive abilities? With as much energy as they gave Biden? Or will they cry about Harris not giving an interview yet?
They’re too busy writing articles with BS titles like “How the joy and enthusiasm of Kamala Harris’ campaign could backfire” or asking some random old white dude on the side of the road in rural Pennsylvania what he thinks.
They always have to be the wet blanket. They hate that this campaign is flawlessly steamrolling ahead at break neck speed, despite their attempts to put a negative spin on it. They hate that they can’t dampen the overwhelming enthusiasm we’re all feeling and it shows. Bitter Betties all around.
Yet the media gleefully pummeled Biden for far less with no let up! It’s appalling!
“…who cannot run a livestream in the year 2024” hahahhaha Space Karen learned nothing from the DeSantis fiasco.
Trump acknowledging that VP Harris is a beautiful woman does remind me though that his personal attacks could have been even more disgusting. The man has no decency.
He called Kamala Harris “Camilla.” ?????
L of the L o L’s
At first when I was reading about his comments, I thought he was saying Kamala was more like Melania and luckily not like Camilla. I strait up thought he was implying that luckily Kamala was not as unattractive as Camilla. The idea of him dissing Charles’ wife had my eyes popping. Bc queen Camilla has talked shit about Biden and you know she probably loves trump so to be dissed by him would probably be mortifying for her. But then I realized that’s not what he was saying😂
Move to Venezuela already, Don. You’re going to lose.
He needs to go to a country that doesn’t return criminals to the US justice system LOL
North Korea! We don’t want him back!
The “shut down the DoE” goal is especially frightening. A second Trump term will destroy the country.
He wants to convince that his campaign is not connected to Project 2025, while at the same time espousing all of its agenda. The only lesson trump learned from being president, is that he was not mean enough. If there’s a god, I pray that I can afford to leave this country if Trump or any right wing republican ever enters the white house again.
A second Trump term will destroy the entire western civilization and the world (civil rights, economy, free speech, education, .. )
I think people are being too dramatic with saying it’s the end of civilization. That sounds like something Trump would say. Regardless of who wins civilization will go on. We will all get up the next day after the election and go to work. Let’s focus on the important topics not give people anxiety
“I’m sure Trump’s performance at this live event will be the story today? ”
One would hope!
And yet … Nope! It’s 2016 all over again, with their insistence on harping on Dems, for example how they were all over Biden, but not calling attention to turnips failings.
A quick survey of MSM shows that’s not entirely the case. The headlines were … halfway down the main page … just “Trump did an interview with Musk on X” with maybe something about topics mentioned or the tech issues.
I love that EM unintentionally f*cked Tr*mp’s campaign up even more with this absolute clown show. Shows both of them up from r why they are.
Everything Space Karen does turns to you know what! Just like Trump! I remember one Tweet saying “Elon is about to bankrupt Apple” and someone responded “did he buy it?”
Two whorish nazi losers.
Space Karen 😀
The way the two rich guys laughed about Elon Musk firing people is going to cost him votes.
You are so right Flowerlake. He is going to lose the unions. What an idiot. The whole thing had such Mr. Burns energy. So gross.
I can’t wait until they turn on each other.
Omg it will be GLORIOUS when they do. You know Trump will blame his loss on Elon and his platform and threaten to lock him up etc. And no one threatens Space Karen! It’s gonna be so epic. Couldn’t happen to a better bitch (and I’m talking about both)
Here to say Musk will make Trump his bitch. Musk is a dictator in the business realm. And Trump will be his boy.
Musk offered to be a part of the Trump administration. Twitter is basically a Trump campaign website and it sounds like Musk’s PAC is coordinating with the Trump campaign (which is illegal but probably can’t be enforced now that regulations that republicans don’t like can’t be enforced thanks to SCOTUS Loper/Chevron decisions)
Loving the response from the Harris-Walz campaign. Lololol at “whatever that was “
One question: did trump berate Musty that it started late and how he wasted his time – like he did at the Black Jounalists convention???? Or is he picking and choosing who he is antagonistic and demeaning to??
Exactly my thought. Did he go on & on & on throughout ‘whatever that was’ about how musk was late & did musk even say ‘good evening’????
I truly can’t wait for his next interview because it’s bound to be another disaster. It’s not that he used to do well before (because he was not doing well) but he now seems to be going to one mess of an interview to the other straight away, it’s really fascinating. Biden stepping down really broke him, the old guy didn’t see it coming at all.
I admire Biden’s game. He kept emphatically saying he was the nominee and then all of a sudden he wasn’t and a well executed Kamala rollout happened. On a Sunday afternoon when everyone wasn’t working. Trump had bet the ranch on campaigning against Joe and wasn’t ready for Biden’s tag team judo flip.
The Harris/Walz campaign is using all the Mango Menace’s tactic against him. I’m loving it! The fact that the other campaign is spending so much time attempting to explain that they’re not weird and then saying “I’m not weird; you are.” is the chef’s kiss.
Just a reminder. Mango’s “doctor” did an interview documenting the medications that he claims that Biden was taking to function through cognitive decline. You can’t tell me that Mango put him up to it as a deflection attempt. Which is the reason that he refuses to disclose his medical records. He’s probably suffering from the same condition as his father and more that likely he and his family knew that he suffered from it when he was elected. He is the modern day Nero.
Mango and Musk are cut from the same cloth. Their public humiliation makes them double down on their cruel behavior.
Harris/Walz are a breath of fresh air that we need.
The walls really are crashing down around Trump. Kamala and Tim are sweeping the nation, Vance is screwing himself into the ground (or couch) daily, the hush money sentencing is coming up on Sept. 18, Tanya Chutkan’s back on the federal election interference case, Aileen Cannon’s about to be bounced by the 11th circuit and a new judge assigned, and I am reveling in it all. The bigger the a-hole the harder the fall Donnie.
O Trump, please keep talking 🤣🤣🤣
“whatever that was”
The Harris-Walz campaign team is UNLEASHED, and I’m loving it
Look, I hate the guy as much as we all do but can we please stop with the speculation/giggling about his dentures being loose? I mean, maybe they were. I’m 37 and have to wear dentures. Because I couldn’t afford implants, my dentures are too big for my mouth and they’re horrible and I barely wear them half the time and I’m getting pretty tired of the giggles surrounding denture wearers.
He’s still a horrible human being and I abhor him.
My mother wore dentures for as long as I knew her. Except she basically took them out after she retired and only put them back in for church. Apparently back in the 40’s or 50’s, some dentist persuaded her she’d be better off removing all her teeth and just getting dentures. She probably never had any dental care as a child growing up in the Mountain West in a poor family where she worked the fields in summer to be able to buy her own shoes. I don’t know if Mom ever had her dentures refitted as she aged, or if she used adhesives. I do remember her complaining about the fit though. I’m sorry yours are giving you grief and hope you’ll be able to get them adjusted.
@Meghan
I certainly WILL NOT STOP going on about his runaway teefus.
F him
My parents are older than Donald and no middle class + people their age have dentures. They had fluoride and dental care and have their own teeth or at worst an implant or 2
The Harris campaign: “Self-obsessed rich guys who will sell out the middle class and who cannot run a livestream in the year 2024.”
Nuff said, mic drop
if your dentures dont fit or if they cause pain, you need a new set. It is unrealistic to think you can just buy one pair and they will fit forever. It just doesnt work that way. your mouth changes.
Sometimes you can get them relined, sometimes not. See a reputable dentist and find out what you need. Dentists can arrange for financing through state or national dental associations.
ALso, most dental schools have clinics that offer greatly reduced rates for dental work.
Your dental health is important. Make the effort TO SEEK this important health care for yourself.
Trump has had sporadic issues with his dentures for a long time now. I assume it is not a money issue, so who knows?
I just don’t believe a rich, vain guy who has done his aging in the 21st century has dentures .
Narcissists have a very notable pattern of collapse once the tide starts to turn on them, and we’re seeing a textbook case of Trump having to see a more interesting candidate take his headlines. IMO, it’s only going to get worse with his cognitive decline, and his more unhinged cultists will follow. We should be thankful Democrats control the senate and executive branch right now, but that won’t stop a mess in November.