Throughout history, people inevitably ask why various ruling classes eventually go crazy. I always thought the answer was “inbreeding.” Meaning, for centuries, ruling houses, royalty and aristocratic societies were always marrying and having children with their siblings, cousins or various other relatives. The whole idea of “opening up the gene pool” is actually a relatively modern concept. Well, Ridley Scott was asked why the half-fictional Roman emperors in his Gladiator movies are always bonkers. He went in a different direction – it’s not the inbreeding, it’s the lead!!
In Gladiator II, opening this week, twin sibling Emperors Geta and Caracalla, played by Fred Hechinger and Joseph Quinn, come across rather unstable — to say the least. And in 2000’s Gladiator, Joaquin Phoenix’s tyrannical Emperor Commodus was also a bit loopy (in addition to being “terribly vexed”). According to director Ridley Scott, there is a very specific historical reason for this.
“People forget that all the wealthy, high-end senatorial Roman aristocracy would live on water, which was piped through lead pipes and lead tanks,” Scott told The Hollywood Reporter. “People don’t think about that. Your choice is water or wine. When you drink water, it’s through a lead system that by then could be 200 years old by then. No wonder they’re f–king crazy. They’re all going halfway to Alzheimer’s.”
Indeed, according to Science magazine, “High-born Romans sipped beverages cooked in lead vessels and channeled spring water into their homes through lead pipes.” In addition to causing physical problems, lead poisoning can cause behavioral issues such as depression, irritability, altered moods and difficulty concentrating or remembering. Modern-day testing of Roman pipes have shown that Ancient Rome water had 100 times higher lead levels than normal. But scientists have also concluded this wasn’t high enough to — as some historians have speculated over the years — bring down the Roman Empire. Still, regular doses of lead mixed with massive amounts wealth and power could arguably inspire some regal volatility.
It’s true, it would not occur to most people that the Roman Empire was being ruled by people who were all being slowly poisoned by lead. I absolutely believe that was a factor now. Plus the inbreeding, obviously. There are other weird scientific reasons for various questions like “why were people in such-and-such era acting that way?” Like Victorians and arsenic. The Romanovs and… inbreeding.
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red.
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- Ridley Scott bei der Premiere des Kinofilms Alien: Romulus im TCL Chinese Theatre. Los Angeles, 12.08.2024 *** Ridley Scott at the premiere of the movie Alien Romulus at the TCL Chinese Theatre Los Angeles, 12 08 2024 Foto:xJ.xBlocx/xFuturexImagex romulus_4845,Image: 898556183, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: imago is entitled to issue a simple usage license at the time of provision. Personality and trademark rights as well as copyright laws regarding art-works shown must be observed. Commercial use at your own risk., Model Release: no, Credit line: IMAGO/Jennifer Bloc/Avalon/Avalon
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- Paul Mescal and Sir Ridley Scott attend The Royal Film Performance™ and Global Premiere of GLADIATOR II taking place on Wednesday 13th November at ODEON LUXE, LEICESTER SQUARE.,Image: 935213906, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: JIMMY JAMES/Avalon/Avalon
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- HOLLYWOOD, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, USA – NOVEMBER 18: Giannina Facio Scott and husband Ridley Scott arrive at the Los Angeles Premiere Of Paramount Pictures’ ‘Gladiator II’ held at the TCL Chinese Theatre IMAX on November 18, 2024 in Hollywood, Los Angeles, California, United States.,Image: 936317985, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Pictured: Giannina Facio Scott, Ridley Scott, Credit line: Xavier Collin/Image Press Agency/Avalon
Excuses. Romans were a brutal, class based, repressive and unforgiving lot. The good book says ‘the heart of men is wicked beyond all imaginings” its not the lead.
So true, look at Trump and his administration, family, etc.
And what might have LEAD to that? 🤣
Its a chicken or egg problem and while yes of course societies were very different, an upper class going crazy does not help.
Also: since when is having a mental disorder/ sickness an excuse? Ridley didn’t label it as such.
The Atlantic featured a study years ago that found acquiring wealth and power actually shrinks the empathy center of the brain in most people. Perhaps it has other effects we haven’t studied yet.
I read a similar article about the correlation between lead poisoning and parenting (or the lack of) by the lost generation. Almost everything had lead in it before 1978–paint (interior and exterior, childhood toys), plumbing, gasoline, makeup etc. It’s now used to soften and mold plastics so they return its shape, so like plastic lids on food containers.
I don’t think he was making excuses—just interesting and scary how we all go about our daily lives surrounding ourselves with things that are harmful to us.
Lately I have been thinking about how much of human history has been shaped by people with personality disorders like psychopathy and antisocial PD. When people with those psychological disorders manage to get into positions of immense power it has caused tremendous loss of life and suffering.
@Noo: It’s still happening. We’re currently being abused and traumatized by Trump.
Yes @brassyrebel. That is exactly why I am thinking about significant male leaders in human history and that they were literally all sociopaths or psychopaths who got into positions of immense power.
Good excuse for drinking wine. But not in lead goblets.
😄😄😄🍷
They also added fine lead shavings to wine to make it sweeter! But even the ancient Romans knew lead was a poison, but not the extent of it. That’s one of the facts about the ancient world that fascinates me the most^.^
People back then were just like people in modern times, the only real difference is their level of technology and scientific knowledge. It’s wild, lol.
It’s a bit of both with the ruling classes in Rome — inbreeding and lead poisoning.
Outsiders like e.g. Macrinus, a Berber, or e.g. Aurelian, Tacitus, Trajan, Hadrian became emperors through wars and/or by killing the relevant heirs and broke the chain of intermarriage.
As for “bringing down the Roman Empire”, neither lead nor inbreeding had much to do with that. There was a lot of pressure on the empire from external tribes invading (that were in turn sometimes pushed by yet other tribes), endemic diseases, the empire being overstretched and therefore hard to govern + the resulting and too much reliance on foreign troops, as well as several other factors. Political rivalries of men so powerful that it threatened the stability of Rome had existed since the late Roman Republic, so before the Roman Empire was even a thing. With how big the Empire grew, possibilities for rival emperors (effectively warlords) to make attempts at toppling each other grew bigger.
As for inbreeding and decadence, what most people first think about in this context is probably the first dynasty of Roman emperors, who were ruling well before when the Gladiator were set and had a bit of a wild family tree. However, after that dynasty lost power, a lot of the Roman Emperors following were not biologically related to each other at all. This was not like later medieval Western Europe where you always needed to justify wearing the crown by having a long lineage of descending from earlier kings.
With the Roman Empire expanding, a lot of the new elites were not from Rome or even Italy.
Caracalla, the crazy emperor from Gladiator II, had a mother with Syrian blood, while his father was from a high-born Roman family. More and more people from farther out got citizenship and then paths were open to them to the elite as well. Even Julius Caesar, who lived at the tail end of the Roman Republic, already admitted foreigners to the senate. By the time of the Gladiator movies, there were a lot of people part of the Roman elite who had ancestors that were not originally Roman or even Italian. So I’d argue they generally (of course there are exceptions) got less inbreedy as time went on rather than more.
Finally, people tend to forget only the Western Empire fell in the fifth century. The Eastern Empire centered around Constantinople lasted another millenium (!) after the fall of the Western Empire.
Thank you for this overview of a period in history about which I am ill-informed. Would you recommend The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, or a different book covering the topic?
One of the things I love about Celebitchy is that I can get a very thorough history lesson AND celebrity gossip, all in one page! Thank you!
Being poisoned by their own ingenuity and advances.. that makes sense to me. We didn’t ban lead in paint until the 60’s I believe. Flint has had clean water now for 7.5 years, but I already know of people who have issues from the water there before it was resolved. Clean water is important, but I’m the mom who bought all her kids lifestraws 🤷🏼♀️ just in case.
It’s only just this term, with the Biden-Harris Administration, that we got a Final Rule to replace all lead pipes within a decade. Let’s see if trump honors that or prefers us all brain-damaged.
There’s a theory out there that the sharp decline in what we recognize as “serial killers” in the past few decades is due to the phasing out of lead. Obviously nothing excuses behavior or criminality but it’s an interesting hypothesis for why things seemed to change so drastically, especially since it seemed like there were new serial killers every day in the 70s.
That’s so interesting! I heard the theory that decline came because of ultra violent video games. They might live out their psychopathy through these as it gives the brain the feeling it actually happens
If the school shooters are considered “serial killer”, I don’t see a decline in their numbers. It seems like there was another mass shooting every month for a while. Also, it is harder now to go from state to state murdering people without getting caught. Technology improved vastly and the law enforcement has access to a lot of data. It is unfortunately more likely for someone to kill a lot of people in a short time within a limited place than to murder people across states / cities for years.
Those are not technically seen as serial killers, as the distinguishing characteristic of serial killers is that time passes between each victim. This in contrast to a mass murderer, who is killing several at the same time.
Definitely get your main point though, as that is of course also violence that is sadly still happening often and it didn’t stop at a certain point and with a specific reason.
@ks @abcd All interesting theories. I think it may be a combination of things. I’ve always thought a big part of it is with the advancement in DNA testing etc, along with gps, cameras everywhere (including home cameras),phones, email, tracking etc. I think we catch many of them ways sooner (or at all) compared to even 20 years ago.
I think it is due to people having cell phones.
I mean they certainly had health problems that we now don’t for a variety of reasons but you can say that about any time prior to right now.
The Roman aristocracy was filled with the same mix of people you’ll find anywhere today — most of them were pretty normal, a handful were crazy, some were more sickly than others… the biggest difference is that they did a lot of murder to get the stuff they wanted.
I read once that, at least for people in the middle ages in Europe, the lead plates and such weren’t that bad, but when tomatoes were cooked in it, a poisonous reaction occurred. Only happened to upper classes since they could afford the lead plates.
Not sure if the tomato was in Europe in Roman times, but I thought very interesting!!
Tomatoes didn’t come to Europe from the Americas until the 1500s-ish, and weren’t considered not poisonous until the mid to late 19th century. It was pewter plates (which for most of history had a whooole lotta lead in it) and dinnerware that were the most used by the wealthy and nobility. So a lot of rich, royal people died from lead poisoning after eating foods with tomatoes in them. People knew there was a connection between food and the illness and deaths, but didn’t have the scientific knowledge yet to discover that it was the interplay of the cooking/cooked tomatoes’ acidity and how it facilitated the leaching of the lead into the food. Tomatoes themselves were blamed, which makes sense…fancy people eat tomatoes from their fancy plates and die, it’s not too out there to think it was the food.
*I could probably talk about food history stuff all day, I’m a huge nerd about it. There’s a great article from the Smithsonian, but I’m not sure if links are allowed. If you search for “are tomatoes poisonous” it should pop up first^.^
There is a theory that the water in most Roman lead pipes was so hard that it probably coated them with calcified deposits over time, which would have mitigated the poisonous effects of the lead. The Romans definitely knew that lead was poisonous, and some authors write that terracotta pipes were preferred (partly because it tasted so much better, too!). It’s a fun theory for the fall of the Roman Empire, though. Another theory is due to climate change and the end of the temperate period known as the “Roman Climatic Optimum” (c.250 BCE – 400 CE), which led to a “Little Ice Age” (and thus hard winters, wet summers, and shortages of food).
I love listening to the podcast This Podcast Will Kill You. They had an episode on lead, and talked about the Roman Empire being affected by lead poisoning. There are also episodes about smallpox and malaria, and some others. It’s two disease ecologists/epidemiologists talking about a disease or a condition. They talk about what the disease is, biology of it, how it affects humans, history of the disease and what the status is of it now. I have learned so much!
I remember my Latin teacher telling us this theory back in the 90s, so its definitely not something new or something that Ridley Scott made up.
Like every civilization, the answer is going to be more complicated than just “inbreeding” or “lead poisoning” or something, but it probably didn’t help. There’s not a black and white answer to “why the Roman empire collapsed” but that’s true for most of history. Very few things are black and white even in retrospect.
What inbreeding? People really have no clue about history. Roman emperors were not biologically related in most cases throughout the empire’s history. And the lead theory is super old and was disproven decades ago. In an age without soap, medicine, proper hygiene and dangerous folk medicine, lead was the least of their problems.