I’m not a regular listener/watcher of The Pivot Podcast, but the men behind it get some good exclusives and their interviews often make headlines. Simone Biles’ husband Jonathan Owens made his terrible comments about men and marriage on the Pivot Podcast in late 2023, and I think the Pivot hosts have a real knack for getting famous men to admit some weirdly toxic thoughts and beliefs. Speaking of, Anthony Mackie was a recent guest on the pod, and his comments about men and masculinity are getting a lot of attention. Just FYI: Mackie has four sons with his ex-wife Sheletta Chapital. His sons’ ages are between 15 and 8.
On raising four sons: “I keep my boys humble. Like my boys have never had a pair of Jordans. My boys don’t do all that internet fly sh-t. I could be the biggest star in the world. Do not let me catch you being stupid…. My oldest gets it, my 15-year-old. He tell the other ones, he’s like, ‘Yo, don’t make dad mad.’ Once you get one that’s right, he’s going to straighten the other ones out.”
The death of the American male: “So, it is just that thing of… in the past 20 years, we’ve been living through the death of the American male. They have literally killed masculinity in our homes, in our communities for one reason or another. But I raise my boys to be young men. And however you feel about that, you feel about that. But my boys will always be respectful, they will always say “yes sir” and “yes ma’am”… they will always say “thank you.” They will always open the door for a lady. They will always make sure that their mother is provided for. They will always be men.”
The oldest is the man of the house: “Every time I left for a job, I tell my 15-year-old, ‘You’re the man of the house. You make sure these doors are locked. Every night this alarm is on. You text me or you call me every night before you go to bed and you wake up.’ I love that because we’re men.” Mackie believes all the “money” and “celebrity” in the world “means nothing” if he’s “not there to protect” his family.
On European men: “So, for me, it’s always that idea of American masculinity is very different. You feel it when you go to Europe, you see these [motherf–kers] and you’re like ‘I could bust your ass, boy.’ You go to Europe and [they’re wearing] those tight-ass pants. Boy, you better lotion your ankles.”
I’m including the video below and I have it cued up to this section on American masculinity. Let me say that I think it’s a much more loaded conversation when a Black man is talking about masculinity, and there’s obviously a much deeper history which intersects with racism in America, the legacy of physical and financial oppression and the waxing and waning of respectability politics in modern America. I think if Mackie was speaking solely about how he enforces his own ideals of respectability and masculinity on his sons, it would be less of a conversation. But Mackie is, like, consciously tying that conversation to “the death of American masculinity.” Which is something of a talking point in right-wing circles, that no one will “let” men be men, that masculinity is in crisis because women have rights or something. The sh-t about European men is so weird too. There are some moments here where Mackie comes across as somewhat toxic.
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Cover Images.
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- Cast attend the Captain America Film Brave New World photocall in Trafalgar Square,Image: 958866997, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Pictured: Anthony Mackie, Credit line: Phil Lewis/Wenn/Avalon
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- Rome Photocall Of ‘Captain America: Brave New World’ At The Hotel De La Ville Featuring: Anthony Mackie Where: Rome, Italy When: 27 Jan 2025 Credit: IPA/INSTARimages **UK, USA AND AUSTRALIA RIGHTS ONLY**
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- Rome Photocall Of ‘Captain America: Brave New World’ At The Hotel De La Ville Featuring: Anthony Mackie Where: Rome, Italy When: 27 Jan 2025 Credit: IPA/INSTARimages **UK, USA AND AUSTRALIA RIGHTS ONLY**
I was such a big Anthony fan. I’m so goddamn disappointed.
I’m European.
Was really hesitating about going to his movie or not.
On the one hand, I boycott Disney because of their sudden change on DEI and no longer acknowledging some of their racism.
On the other hand, I wanted to support a black Captain America.
He made it easy for me. I’m not going. Good luck with selling tickets in Europe now.
Ditto. 🫤
Who is “they,” Anthony?
Culture changes and evolves. There isn’t some grand conspiracy behind that.
Exactly. What the hell is he on about ?!
“They”
Yeah I get that it’s nuanced and I’m not going police a black person and what they say and do and how they have to raise their children in order to thrive in the US or abroad. These things read like security and safety and responsibility which yes are great but with many things with parenting I don’t always think forced compliance is the path to instilling these values in a healthy way. Yes it sounds like he’s doing a great job raising responsible young men. Do I think there is an undercurrent of homophobia and toxic masculinity, well yes and that’s very common in the US. I do wish men felt more appreciated and welcome in society as they are and didn’t feel the need to punch down on lgbtqi+ and women in order to express their full masculine selves.
Well said.
+1
Men created the society, and the evolved men around us are trying to drag it into progress along with them, but the old guard just can’t let go.
Spot on!
Yeah, & there’s so many young men carrying the torch for that old guard mentality. I’m reminded of a post-election observation from the PBS Newshour:
.
“What ends up being the choice for a lot of men is feeling like–a Left that’s turned its back on them & a Right that thinks the solution is to turn the clock back the on women”
“Yes it sounds like he’s doing a great job raising responsible young men.”
It sounds like he is raising ONE responsible son, and having that son doing the job to policing/raising his younger siblings? Yeah, I know in some households with many children, some parents would have the oldest child acting as 2nd parent. But is it fair to that kid?
I’m sure his list of what he expects of his sons is not complete, but I don’t get “responsible” from what he did say. His sons are expected to be polite. Great, everyone should be polite. Hold open doors? Everyone should hold open the door for everyone else. Make sure mom is provided for? It’s a solid ambition for any child to look out for either parent as they age.
Where is the part where he expects them to respect others and their decisions? Be a great partner? Do right by others? Think of someone other than yourself? Be engaged in the world. Be open to learning new things and changing your mind?
His list is not what makes a man.
Exactly. Since when is saying “yes sir” and holding the door for someone considered masculine?? Everything he said is moronic.
‘Lotion your ankles’? Unacceptable. Whoever it’s from.
The first thing he apparently thinks about when he walks through Europe is about fighting men, for some reason.
He also uses a stereotype of what he maybe saw in Paris or Milan for a whole continent, with many different countries where men don’t dress like that.
He can have that opinion, but I can then also be of the opinion that I no longer like him and don’t want to support his work anymore.
Has nothing to do with “policing”. Same as how everyone is allowed to boycott other stuff for whatever reason. We don’t owe him support.
Up until reading this article, his movie was the last and only Disney product I still wanted to support after their reversal on DEI.
I’m so f–king tired, you guys.
+1
This all day.
So so tired.
Bone tired. Practically a husk. Especially since Michelle kept warning everyone…
.
“Believe me, if DT becomes pres again, at some point or another that ugliness will touch all of our lives…. If he doesn’t view you as his equal or relevant to his ambitions, I promise you–he will not think about you when he gets into the OvalOffice …Let me take a minute to help our folks, esp the men in our lives… So fellas… I recognize there are a lot of angry, disillusioned people out there upset w/ the slow pace of change. And I get it. It’s reasonable to be frustrated. But to anyone thinking about voting for DT, 3rd party or sitting this one out, let me warn you: Your rage does not exist in a vacuum. If we don’t get this election right, your wife, your daughter, your mother– we as women will become collateral damage to your rage.” [long pause]
One of the major issues with American masculinity is that it’s defined by providing financially for women, which is capitalist BS. Being respectful is great. Holding doors is nice. But women having financial independence does not hurt men. That’s toxic masculinity defined.
Agreed! Why must men’s masculinity be defined by what rights, liberties or freedoms women are perceived to be given (which is BS because they should be inalienable rights for all regardless of your sex)? As if the only way to be masculine in America is to dominate the other sex.
The thing is that it’s mostly men who think providing for women is an essential component of masculinity even as they complain that women are emasculating and/or replacing them by providing for ourselves. So instead of adapting to changing attitudes, they set themselves up for their own perceived failures.
If Trump gets us into war and there’s a draft, all these alpha men will be happy AF that women are still working and keeping the economy running. Women are vital to our workforce and that’s not gonna change anytime soon.
I don’t know whether the pressure on men to be bread winners is limited to American men. I think it existed long before capitalism became a thing. And even now, when many women outearn their men, people look sideways at them and question whether they are gold diggers who are only after the women they’re with for the money. So, I think that pressure or expectation on men exists today. I don’t necessarily think it’s bad for men to aim at financial success either. I guess, I don’t quite get what the examples AM gives has to do with the “death of masculinity” in America. Maybe he didn’t want to open a larger conversation so that there wouldn’t be controversy. Who knows.
@Debbie
Before capitalism became a thing? When do you think it became a thing?
IDK…I’d be interested in learning more about how what he’s saying is race-specific because it all just sounds realllllly toxic to me. What if one of his sons is LGBTQ or just favors tight jeans? Is Mackie going to automatically reject him as a failure of how he defines masculinity??
TBH he sounds like a lot of closeted gays. Not saying that he is, but this kind of language is often born out of a deep discomfort with one’s own sexuality.
You have to raise black kids different from white kids in America. You mouth off to a cop and you can die. You can get shot in the St or in a shop for nothing and the shooter stills get off.
Thanks, Lisa– I completely understand and if he was making that point I would agree. But he’s not discussing respectability politics or the inherent racism in US law enforcement here–unless I’m missing more context. What he appears to be promoting is a viewpoint that fuels homophobia, transphobia, and arguably leads to the kind of mindset that justifies further marginalizing members of his own community. And I’m certainly not saying only Black men hold this view–plenty of white men do too–but this is the kind of shit that leads to Black trans folks getting hurt or worse.
He’s specifically talking about only men can protect the family (incl a 15 yr old in that). And making a 15 yr old responsible for it all. Is the mother there or can she only do women’s work? He’s also trained his oldest to tell the younger ones not to make dad mad (which is toxic af – I grew up like that). Then he goes on to say that he judges other men by how they dress and he could bust their ass because masculinity equals winning fights – apparently. Btw dude, slim doesn’t mean weak or unable to fight. What a pos.
Been waiting for this to explode for quite a while. I’ve disliked him for years, ever since seeing his comments about women should be home making him sandwiches, and how he’s free to go out whenever, unlike his then wife.
Was about to say something similar. He has been like this for a long time, but for whatever reason, a lot of these comments got swept under the rug. I remember his interviews for the “What’s Your Number” press tour, which was an early 2010s rom com starring Anna Faris and Chris Evans. Basically, in his mind, women aren’t allowed to date around while men should have free reign. Just gross.
See, I can see those comments (if he said them) being part of a conversation about the death of American masculinity, a lot more than being respectful to elders by saying “please” and “thank you.” I know nothing about A. Mackie, so this is all news to me.
The concern for boys and men in the US is not limited to the right wing. There have been numerous books and studies about how they are falling behind in health, in education, in the workplace, in issues of mental health, increases in addiction, self-harm and violence.
I don’t know what Mackie means by “they” and “masculinity,” but the statistics are there.
Does it say why these things are happening? I feel it’s at least partly because men don’t take an active role in these parts of their lives & expect women to carry the burden.
Falling behind in health – they don’t have wives/girlfriends to make them Dr appts & “nag” them to go
Mental Health – similar as above, but they also expect women to be their emotional support vs a therapist
Education / Workplace – they are too used to coasting by and taking credit from women actually doing the work
Self-harm/violence/addiction – stems from them being upset by all the above, and using these as escapes vs doing the work
The issues seem much more complex than this. Boys are falling behind as early as grade school and that can just pile up as time goes on. There’s also a general attitude that, being in a patriarchal society, boys will automatically have a leg up so they don’t need any specific care, but that doesn’t seem to be working.
@Mdub, a thousand times yes to every word you said. The men who do this – not all men, ofc – need to be held accountable for toxic behaviour, which they also model for their male children (which is the point of this post). Until this is done NOTHING will change for the better
He said that too?
Wow. Up until a few minutes ago, I liked the dude a lot.
So disappointed.
If he’d stopped with saying he was raising them to be polite and respect women, he would have been fine. There is also nothing wrong with having the son check the alarms, but he shouldn’t have phrased it like he was leaving the 15 year old in charge and NOT the mother in the household. As if she were incapable of taking care of things. Maybe why he is divorced.
Aside from the whole “they” killed masculinity bit, that part about making his 15 year old responsible for the home was what hit me. I’ve known enough people whose parents divorced or a parent died who got the “you’re the man/woman of the house now” speech as kids who were really f’d up by it. They’re kids! It’s not their job to manage the household, that’s on their parents!
An invariably that speech came from an adult (aunt, uncle, grandparent, close friend) who
a) had no business laying that weight on a child who was not theirs and
b) was someone who was in a position to help, support the parent(s), kids going through loss and a difficult time
and
c) completely abdicated any support role they good have played, merrily going unbothered about their lives, leaving the kids to struggle, only popping up to judge the kids: family for not living up to their ideas of what’s good enough
You’re the man of the house now. The kid is fifteen. My grandmother expected my dad to be “the man of the house” at twelve because her husband abandoned the family. It’s amazing my dad grew to be as mentally balanced as he was but he did have issues because his mother treated him like a substitute husband.
IMO, men and women view masculinity very differently. Personally, I don’t find talking like a testosterone fueled “I can beat your ass” teen boy to be masculine. The most manly man I know (I’ve seen MANY men awed by him), is quiet and considered in the things he says. He doesn’t need to run his mouth off to communicate his masculinity. In any dicey situation that requires a leader, I (and most men I know) would follow his direction without question.
Who is the ‘they’ he’s referring to, ‘they’ who won’t let him be masculine in his own home? The guy now divorced. Wonder why? 🤔
Did that read as code for ‘I’m not allowed to physically punish my wife and kids any more’ to anyone else?
“Literally killed masculinity in our homes”?! WTF does that even mean. What has happened in the last decade or so for all these dudes to feel like they’re threatened, except for #MeToo? Men are still abusing and killing women at unchanged rates. Two women tried and couldn’t get elected president. Why is masculinity so fragile for these types of guys?
It’s fragile because it needs to be propped up, preferably by violence (note the emphasis on protection and its connection to “being a man,” “I can beat your ass” etc). That’s a heavy burden to place on a 15 year old, and I hope his son has lots of support from others not so invested in toxic masculinity…I bet his son is beyond embarassed and is begging his father to STOP DRAGGING ME INTO YOUR STUFF IN PUBLIC!
and @Miranda, same. I’m just so tired of all of it
What in the word salad…
IKR? It was just 30days ago I was reading his interview pull quote about dating “being really hard when you’re famous.”
Not a fan and never have been. A 25 year old is not the man of the house. His wife is the caretaker and I’m sure she can check the alarms and do all that needs to be done to protect her children.
Toxic masculinity at work right there.
Rights are not a zero sum game. You never have less because someone now has theirs. You could try teaching that to your boys.
I recognize the differences in moving through the world as a black man is not something I can fully understand —though I try to be empathic to (I’m Latine) —but these comments are part of a larger trend. What’s so upsetting these days is that men are saying this prob because it’s what they think but it’s also being rewarded in this climate. This whole act of —“look at how the Left has repressed us and kept us down and made it so we can’t express our “true” selves” bull shit. Victim speak for the non victims, but so popular and well received right now.
Joe Rogan and MAGA and all these doofuses are bringing back toxic ideas that are -yes misogynistic as all get out—but also harmful to young boys and men too. It fuels so much depression and repression and keeps us all trapped in boxes. It’s disgusting and disappointing. Thanks, Captain America!
On European men: “So, for me, it’s always that idea of American masculinity is very different. You feel it when you go to Europe, you see these [motherf–kers] and you’re like ‘I could bust your ass, boy.’”
Why do you need to be that aggressive?
I don’t get it
“… you see these [motherf–kers] and you’re like ‘I could bust your ass, boy.”
Isn’t this the very definition of toxic masculinity?
That seemed toxic alright, as if we need more right-wing bs in the world right now..captain of this America for sure..
His ideas about maleness and masculinity are vapid and shallow.
He has always been this way. Always. He learned to keep a lid on it some years back.
thank’s but he can stay in america, we don’t need any more toxic man in europe, and def will take some “tight-ass pants” wearing over this toxic showcase, I’m sorry for his boys, they deserve better than man who think that beating anyone is a sign of masculinity.
When he leaves for work, the 15 year old child is “the man of the house”. Well, that’s healthy and not at all toxic male behaviour. I mean, what does that teach HIS BOYS about the worth of women and their ability to provide and protect their family? Thought so. THE BOYS have to provide for their mother…like she can’t do it herself? Parents are supposed to take care of their own business, make a plan for the future, make sure they’re taken care of if something happens to the spouse and so on, it is NOT the kid’s job!
also: his parenting style seems to be based on fear, not respect.