Annie Lennox continues to be a truth-telling goddess, queen and icon. It all started last month when Annie was asked about Beyonce’s performances and whether it’s a good thing that Beyonce self-identifies as a feminist. Annie basically said that Beyonce is “feminist lite” and that her self-identification is “tokenistic.” Annie got some hate from The Hive, but in an interview this week with The Daily Beast, Annie didn’t back down. She clarified her comments a bit, talking about the sexualization of young women in music and how feminism exists on a broad spectrum. Annie has a new interview, this time with NPR (via Billboard) and of course those liberal hippies at NPR (God, I love NPR) asked her about feminism and all of that good stuff. YES!
Annie Lennox, former member of the Eurythmics, has been doing plenty of interviews to promote her new album, Nostalgia. Lately, those conversations have often turned to a different topic: Beyonce. Lennox labeled Bey “feminist lite” in an interview at the end of September. Talking with NPR in a recent interview, Lennox attempted to clarify her stance.
NPR’s Steve Inskeep asked the singer, “What has made you comment on a lot of modern music today that is being put out by women as being over-sexualized?” “Well you’ve said it in the question,” Lennox replied. “The reason why I’ve commented is because I think that this overt sexuality thrust — literally — at particular audiences, when very often performers have a very, very young audience, like 7 years older, I find it disturbing and I think its exploitative. It’s troubling. I’m coming from a perspective of a woman that’s had children.”
The discussion then moved from over-sexualization more generally to focus on Beyonce. “Some people will know that you specifically criticized Beyonce for this the other day,” prompted Inskeep. “Well, I didn’t specifically criticize Beyonce,” noted Lennox. “I was being asked about Beyonce in the context of feminism, and I was thinking at the time about very impactful feminists that have dedicated their lives to the movement of liberating women and supporting women at the grass roots, and I was saying, ‘well that’s one end of the spectrum, and then you have the other end of the spectrum.'”
Inskeep pressed further: “It sounds like you feel that there was a phrase taken and that became the headline, but you were actually trying to deliver a more involved thought?”
“Listen,” said Lennox, “Twerking is not feminism. Thats what I’m referring to. It’s not — it’s not liberating, it’s not empowering. It’s a sexual thing that you’re doing on a stage; it doesn’t empower you. That’s my feeling about it.” Before returning to Nostalgia, Lennox suggested, “Maybe this is a good thing because it creates debate.”
Yes. Word. I hate how people are boiling this down to “Annie hates Beyonce” or “Annie hates Miley Cyrus” or “Annie thinks the young ones aren’t real feminists” or whatever argument some of you will make about race. Annie is very clearly and concisely talking about the spectrum of feminism and feminist acts. She’s very clearly talking about the “disturbing and exploitative” nature of many performers. I don’t know why we can’t take Annie’s words at face value. She was a feminist when it wasn’t “cool”. She’s been talking about women’s issues for decades.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I agree, and it’s very frustrating that her arguments are twisted into “women can’t be sexual and feminist” and all that other garbage. Just read what she’s actually saying, because she’s so right.
+1
+1million.
I think you’re one of the coolest chicks in this place, GNAT. Just wanted you to know.
🙂
You are so sweet, sigh(s) and I really love your posts and getting to know you!
Completely agree!
I can see Annie’s point but I don’t think she knows what twerking is and it seems like she must think this is a new dance style created by Miley and her types.
@Kaiser her comments do have to do with race so to make it seem like we’re “reaching” is insulting and dismissive of what’s really going on here. she’s dismissing a dance form that has been popular within black and west indian communities for years but because a white girl started doing it incorrectly and making it this overly sexualized dance and making herself a caricature all of a sudden people think they can judge twerking based on what Miley does and shame every WOC who chooses to do it.
Most young people will turn to Beyonce and Emma Watson not Annie Lennox when it comes to feminism and instead of Annie bringing more women into the movement, she’s ostracizing them and pitting women against each other.
I see your point, and she probably doesn’t know the history of twerking, but I think she’s responding to Miley’s claims that her overt sexuality makes her a feminist. She’s saying that feminists can twerk, but twerking in and of itself is not a feminist act. She isn’t trying to “shame” anyone for anything. She’s responding to the argument that “owning your sexuality” by exploiting your body is not feminism. Twerking was probably a bad example, but you are missing her point, or adding a meaning to it that she did not intend.
I’m in her corner on this one. I agree that “Twerking is not feminism. ” Am I alone here?
No you are not 🙂
Female artists are selling an over sexualized image, but that is not empowering. It just saying, despite your talent you have to use and SELL your sexuality to be successful. And that is the wrong message.
Totally agree!
In some ways, that’s my beef with Jennifer Lopez. Although sexualized gimmickry has nothing to do with age, I feel as if Jennifer Lopez, who I think has C-level / average talent for an entertainer, is too old to still be relying on sexual imaginary to sell herself.
As one matures / ages as a singer, shouldn’t their act evolve or at least pivot away from that? Hmm. I don’t know if that was clear but I hope so.
When the woman is twerking, while wearing only flesh-colored underwear, and the guy is standing there fully clothed and not twerking; twerking has nothing to do with feminism or empowerment or equality.
Amen
Whoever thought that twerking = feminism, though? It’s a dance move, not a political statement.
Well, I don’t think men see it as just “a dance move”.
Should women not do something just because of how the menz might see it?
You could say that about a lot of dance moves though. Have you see what women in salsa competitions wear? It’s pretty revealing compared to their male counterparts, and many of the moves are considered “sexual” but I don’t see it being singled out like twerky has. Which is a shame because twerking didn’t start off that way, and in my experience when women dance(unless they’re in a strip club) it’s for themselves, not to sexulaize themselves and certainly not to get a man’s attention.
If a woman twerks in a forest, and a man didn’t see it, did it ever happen?
Salsa vs Twerking vs the Waltz
There may be a lot of sub-text with the Twerking. I don’t know. But I think some dances will always be thought of as fast, forward and even scandalous.
Twerking (and I have no real opinion on it) might just be too in your face. U know? There are no real hints or suggestions. Just ass-checks flapping.
@BNS…right?
Is the Twist feminist?
Is the Tango feminist?
Is the waltz feminist?
Is breakdancing feminist?
The Macarena??
Since when did twerking get lumped in with feminism? It’s a dance form with African roots and it has nothing to do with western feminism. Annie shouldn’t be commenting on cultural things of which she obviously has little prior knowledge.
Love this.
She seems to be saying quite simple things to me:
“Twerking and feminism are two different things. You can twerk and be a feminist but twerking doesn’t make you a feminist so you shouldn’t be implying that it does.”
“Twerk if you want to, but I personally feel the current trend for twerking is inappropriate if your audience is full of very young fans.”
I can’t see what’s problematic about any of that. I agree with most of it. I’m not too bothered if (my) young children see sexualised stuff – I’m quite happy to have the conversation about it so I’m not too fussed if they see it and the conversation arises. But I do see why other parents would prefer their kids just don’t see it (until they’re older) in the first place.
BTW – really interesting stuff on the cultural history of twerking here yesterday. I learned stuff! But I do think it’s not the topic here, which is “twerking in mass market pop videos aimed at a young demographic”.
My problem is not so much with young children seeing overtly sexual things so much as it is young girls being sort of brainwashed to think that’s what being a girl is about. But I’m with you as far as having the conversation. It’s probably impossible to entirely avoid in this day and age.
It is impossible, GNAT. Even if it wasn’t, I’m instinctively not a banner. I have boys, not girls, but I hope the same conversations would happen if I did have girls. Plus, I’m a horrible cultural snob so anything with even the tiniest smell of low rent (Miley, not cultural dancing) gets a vocal commentary from me. Actually, the Sixlets will probably grow up to say, “My mother was always moaning and tub thumping. It ruined our childhood. She should have just banned this stuff so we didn’t have to listen to her going on all the time”.
I’ll report back in a decade and let you know!
I have a serious question for you and GNAT, do you really think it’s worse then it was 20 years ago. Just as far a sexualization on the media goes? I’m asking because I just always feel like it’s been there.
I remember two of my favorite albums growing up were ‘Janet.’ and ‘Crazy, Sexy, Cool’ by TLC and those albums have a lot of sex on them. Which of course I didn’t realize until I was older what they were actually talking about. My point is though, it just feels like it’s always been there, maybe the problem is it just feels in your face all the time because technology is always at our fingertips.
If what I just wrote doesn’t make any sense, I apologize, I have a cold that’s making me feel like I have bricks for brains.
I think it’s the technology. I had access to Jackie magazine. A few hours of youth TV programming in an entire week. They’ve got access to, well, everything at every moment, you know?
I love the interwebz. I’m completely undeterred by all its many downsides – privacy loss, widespread pron, pub loudmouths elevated to troll status. I think it’s brought far more benefits than problems. And y’know, there’s no turning the clock back.
Best thing to do is work out how to talk to kids about what they see.
Those are two awesome albums, Marty!
But your love of Hardy already proved to me that you have great taste.
Marty
I think it’s much much worse than 20 or 30 years ago. 40 years ago, today’s culture would have been unimaginable, and peopled by a generation who had liberation from the cradle. By the early 80s this, and many other ideals, had been slaughtered.
Women in pop and rock, around the late 70s had great stage models like Patti Smith, Poly Styrene, not to mention the black queens of Soul. Then came Madonna, the new Marilyn, as Paula Yates put it.
I believe much of what we are complaining about was caused by her……inadvertently, but nevertheless she put us back 20 years. The moguls saw that women can be politically and profitably manipulated as long as they believe it’s imitating someone they admire. Madge may insist she invented empowerment, but her fans copied the gloss and the attitude only, taking her Boytoy belt buckle as holy writ, and became exactly that.
Her extreme sexual imagery is cleverly offered as a liberating lesson for us all, and it’s no more convincing than Miley Cyrus yapping that she’s a super-feminist because she lets it all hang out.
In this, both are ignoring the recognition in the 70s that liberation had an unforseen sting in its tail….constant sexual availabilty. This had been great news for guys…..not so much though when women looked twice at sex and sometimes reconsidered.
Liberation was about so much more than sex, but now sex was THE conversation. Madonna was a priceless gift to those men, and to vast marketing outfits who recognised that women actually believed in this empowement mirage, and sold the lot back to us so that we are now our own jailers. They sold us ‘subjugation as a valid choice’ because there are actual laws in place preventing them from denying us most other rights.
TL:DR…it’s worse by far.
In 1979, say, the pornification of everyday life was not part of the planned social (r)evolution.
Slow handclap for Chris!
Thanks Kitten!
And you do make some excellent points Chris.
Chris2: Kick ass comment! Very bold thing to say! Am joining Sixer in the slow clap!
I think my problem with the overly sexualized stuff and children is that right now, the message that’s being put out there is that a woman’s worth is in her sexuality. I have a daughter, and I want her to develop a healthy sexuality, no matter what that is. But at the same time, I want her to understand that that is only one part of her, and it is not the part that she should want to define her. Performers like Beyonce present a really one-dimensional image of a woman as a sexual creature, but not much else. It’s not the acts that are the problem, its the take-away message that is created, and I think that is what Annie was getting at.
+1
That’s my biggest problem with the message to children today, especially girls. That their entire being and sense of self worth is wrapped up in their sexuality. As a general rule, men do not have to “own” their sexuality. They are usually confident enough in their sexual worth that they don’t have to go topless, wear shoes that kill their feet and show off thEir junk to feel empowered. (Now, they do have other problems which I’m not going to get into-I’m speaking solely about what is put out visibly). I feel like, as women, we should strive for that. That we don’t HAVE to strip or twerk to prove we’re empowered. That we have the option to if we choose, but not that we feel it’s a must.
I have a young boy, and thankfully he’s young enough that he doesn’t ask about that stuff yet. Currently I’m just having to combat the boy stereotypes that he gets at school, and that yes, it’s fine if you’re a boy and you love to watch Sofia the First and have some pink Legos. It cheeses me that I have to explain that there aren’t boy shows and girl shows or boy/girl toys.
I totally agree with this. Twerking =/= feminism. You can do it and still be a feminist.
What she is saying is just common sense, why is there any argument at all? Love her, always have.
+1
In “some” circles, feminism has become a marketing tool. It’s in vogue. I’m not saying artists who use this tool aren’t actually feminists but there is something disingenuous about it. And when your audience is young enough to be impressionable (particularly by those in the entertainment industry and I’m not just talking about 7 year olds), what they’re taking away is that it’s okay to be this way-overtly sexual-so long as they label it feminism, even though they don’t understand anything about the male gaze and patriarchy. So, yes, Annie is speaking the truth about there being a spectrum. It’s fine for there to be a spectrum and for someone like Beyoncé to be on one end doing her thing because I do believe she is a feminist who understands her actions and has a better comprehension of the depth of feminism. But she needs to own that she’s selling this to young girls who are only learning about feminism from her.
I’d kill to have 1% of her class.
Ridiculous that it’s being turned into “she’s attacking BEY!!!” bc this issue goes waaaaay beyond Beyonce. It’s just a given that almost every female performer is expected to have talent AND show/shake her ass. It’s regressive. When Annie was at her peak she used her talent, style and beauty to capture your attention not her genitals. I’m glad she is speaking out.
People had issues with Lennox’s comments (which I said yesterday I agreed with, assuming that she was only talking about the mainstream treatment of twerking) because of the broader context. In the mainstream media, twerking is this overly sexual act that only became a thing because Miley Cyrus did it at some awards show. It’s been Columbusted; people have addressed the history and context of twerking in the black community yesterday so I won’t get into that here.
Speaking specifically to her comments on Beyonce, the problem I (and presumably many others) have with her labeling Beyonce “feminist lite” is that when white celebrities like Emma Watson, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, etc. say they’re feminists, they get praised to the high heavens and get called “game changers” and “feminist icons” – even though what they’re saying are things that (1) are basic (meaning introductory) and (2) have been said for decades. Which, fine, they’re speaking out, that’s great, whatever. But Beyonce – Beyonce who has been talking about empowering women for her entire career, Beyonce who managed to succeed in a tough and sexist industry, Beyonce who has never shied away from calling herself a feminist, Beyonce who has an all-woman band so that girls can have more role models to get involved in music – she’s somehow “feminist lite” because she has skimpy costumes on stage and twerks for part of her performance? I’m not saying that any criticism of Beyonce is wrong, it’s just that (1) Lennox seems fixated on that particular aspect of her performances, when B treats her sexuality as only one aspect of who she is and (2) it is incredibly dismissive of everything else B’s done.
Yup! Exactly this. Also: http://feministing.com/2014/04/30/twerk-it-girl-examines-twerking-for-autonomy-and-resistance/
+1
You hit the nails on all the heads with this comment for me. Beyonce is taking most of the heat for the “oversexualized pop diva” when I feel like she’s the wrong target. Yes, her albums contain a lot of sexuality, especially her current one, but I feel like she owns her sexuality as a part of her, but she doesn’t only define herself by that. She has more creative control over her career than most artists, male or female, and she uses her position to help bring visibility to women in music. And a million times yes to all the cookies we hand to white feminists for simply identifying that way. There’s a hell of a lot more to the race aspect of this than the dismissive allusion to it in the main story.
I am sorry but I do not perceive Bey oversexualized shows as something empowering or feminist, to me it seems she is using sex to sell just like Madonna. This does not mean she is not in control of her sexuality,or of her career, simply her shows give not a feminist image, but the oversexualized one that old white rich men has created for women.
There’s also a difference between finding empowerment through sexuality and not letting yourself be disempowered by its presence. Not saying that Beyonce perfectly walks that line, but it’s a distinction to consider.
I think it’s wrong to put Beyonce in the same bandwagon as most of the actual pop starlets, that are mostly untalented and use sexuality to sell their “product” since they lack the quality (no problem with that, only buys who wants, but let’s call it what it is). Beyonce is a talented artist and to me she sounds quite educated and she is certainly not stupid, after all she created the “empire” she has nowadays. Now…that’s a long distance from considering that she brings visibility to women in music or that she is an icon for feminism. She is not. She enhanced her visibility and talent using the same strategies that other used: oversexualized image of women. Fine, but let’s not call that feminism.
Preach! Co-sign!
Also, note that even when Beyoncé speaks in interviews, doesn’t matter what topic, the comment sections are littered with comments about how uneducated and ineloquent she is. As if that blocks them from processing her message. Not that THAT is the problem because most celebs are uneducated but they still are allowed to get their message across, biggest example of this is Brad Pitt who sounds as deep as a puddle of mud. People still move on from this and discuss his messages and views though. Beyoncé however is not allowed to do this.
Beyoncé does messy things, sure and I think that should be discussed but not in the manner of insulting her which contributes nothing to the discussion. Most people won’t admit though that it’s not about feminism but having an opportunity to let rip on some women they don’t like because they don’t dress ‘properly’.
Artemis – I have the biggest commenter crush on you. I’d like to pour a couple of glasses of wine and solve the world with you.
I really agree about Brad Pitt.
Yep, just came to say I agree with what you were saying yesterday Artemis, but my cold-filled brain made me too tired to respond. You put it in really great context though!
I freaking hate the song, but Betty Friedan saw the song ‘Bootylicious’ as feminist. Do her credentials count?
@Zoe:
Thank you! I often feel I waffle and delete loads of comments so thanks for the compliment!
@Pepsi:
That song was released in 2001, I was 11 then and I distinctly remember my best friend who is also biracial (African) being favoured by my classmates because she was modelslender. Basically Naomi Campbell, not going to lie. Gorgeous but she had a mean streak. Everybody was always picking on my butt, no…bullying. It was so bad I used to embarrassed to go to school. And then Bootylicious came out and everybody tried to pretend my friend had an ass and they were jealous of me but they did start to ‘respect’ me. Trifling bitches 🙂
So for me, it was just a relieve to see that having a booty is nothing to be ashamed of and that they FINALLY stopped making me feel guilty about something I couldn’t control. I wasn’t getting this support at school or home so yes, I can see how that is feminist. I was dancing a lot on my own and my carer gave me shit for it but after Bootilicious, I did feel more free because OK to just dance and let your body move the way it moves.
Now it’s even more prevalent and I just smh at people jumping on the bandwagon BUT at the same time I’m happy that popular culture celebrates different types of bodies.
Somebody on the FKA Twigs thread posted a link to an interview with her and this is what she, a biracial girl who struggled with her identity and fitting in, said about the influence of black artists:
In my last year or so of secondary school, when I was about 16, Beyoncé came out with “Crazy in Love,” and Christina Milian came out with “AM to PM.” Before that, it was about Britney, Avril Lavigne, Christina Aguilera—all these really cute white girls who defined what the boys were fancying. Then that year, there was this boom of all these light-skinned black stars, and all of a sudden I was the shit. I was hanging out with the popular girls; I’d gone from people literally scribbling out my face in school photos and writing ugly next to it, to, two years later, having everything be fine—all of a sudden I was really cute. At the time I was super androgynous—I had short hair and I dressed like a boy—and suddenly it was cool to dress the way I did, and I was the most desirable thing on earth. I always called bullshit on that!
I understand her feelings about this and I co-sign her statement.
Black girls don’t go out and have random sex because a popstar is performing in skimpy clothes, that’s just people projecting their fears and expectation on complete strangers and I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t give a toss about black girls’ opinions if it didn’t correlate with theirs. Fact is, it feels good to be represented. All this pearl-clutching is ridiculous.
I was actually a fan of Annie Lennox since her Eurythmics days until these episodes where she keeps trying to define feminism through her own lens (which is her personal right to do) and somehow insisting that the presence or absence of sexiness in a female artist’s performance means they cannot be feminist. I am disappointed that the OP failed to grasp that twerking is a dance, not a sexual act, and has no bearing on whether one can have or promote a feminist stance.
Although I am a fan of Beyonce I don’t like having to be put in a position to defend her. Since she was a teen she has talked and sang about being independent, being a survivor, girl power and girls running the world. She quietly donates to women’s domestic violence centers and built some sort of community educational center FOR WOMEN. She made a big deal of hiring very talented female musicians for her all female band. She was able to separate from her father’s control and manages herself. Whatever you think about her image and her music, she controls it. In terms of her ability to control her career, remain on top in a notoriously fickle industry, influence trends, and be a worldwide superstar only Janet Jackson, Madonna, Meryl Streep and Angelina Jolie outrank her, maybe. Who the hell is Annie Lennox to ignore all that and REPEATEDLY KEEP REDUCING BEYONCE to essentially an airheaded slut based on a dance move she HEARD beyonce might be doing in her shows? Who the Hell is Annie Lennox to keep setting herself up as the final say, the grand Arbiter of who is and who isn’t feminist enough? Oddly she does not dare to mention she who ushered in cone bras and lingerie as outerwear, Madonna? (If one must insist on publicly grading women)
By no means is Beyonce perfect. Like any celebrity she is a mix of talent, opportunity, self promotion and personal foibles. She has, however been pretty consistent in her awe of strong powerful women and breaking music industry barriers herself. She is also a genuine voice and not a studio production. Annie Lennox’ s reductivist approach and REPEATEDLY ignoring the breadth and depth of all the artist has done because Annie Lennox gets palpitations over butt movements rings pretty PATRIARCHAL by proxy to me. Annie Lennox isn’t as deep as she thinks she is.
Artemis: No arguments with you here. I’m not if I effectively got the message across, but my point is that if someone as illustrious within the feminist community as Friedan can see a bigger picture, perhaps her place as elder stateswoman within the movement could get serious about thinking about things in another way. Even if you don’t personally accept it there are people who have the respect from the community are playing with the barriers.
I’m sorry you were bullied.
I think that wasn’t exactly what Lennox was getting at. “Feminism lite” has always been shorthand for “I choose my choice” feminism. It’s a feminism that doesn’t make the majority uncomfortable. And Beyonce is decidedly pretty mainstream. Feminism, at its heart, is supposed to be subversive. It’s supposed to make people uncomfortable. It’s supposed to confront what is comfortable and safe and accepted. There’s a famous quote about feminism – “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house,” from Audre Lorde. That’s the crux of this. Beyonce might identify as a feminist, but she has the convience to be one because her public persona is exactly in line with the mainstream idea of an “empowered” woman.
Let’s not forget that Annie Lennox, when she first became a public figure, cultivated an androgynous appearance and character that a lot of people found off-putting. That was subversive. That challenged an accepted norm at the time. There are plenty of women out there today that still do the stuff that challenges society, but Beyonce isn’t one of them.
+1
You are on it today, sam.
Changed my mind, I can’t be bothered anymore…sorry for wasted comment!
If Beyonce isn’t challenging society, why has she set off so many vociferous debates about feminism, racism, and black womanhood?
If Lennox targeted someone like Miley Cyrus or Katy Perry with what she said, I’d agree wholeheartedly. But again, context matters. Beyonce is a black performer expressing her experiences as a black woman, which can’t be separated into her being black and her being a woman. Therefore, a lot of what she does can’t be seen in the same context as that of a white performer, particularly in terms of sexuality. As I’ve said in another post a while back, black people are consciously or unconsciously deemed and stereotyped as “too” sexual to the point of being animalistic (e.g. Jezebel stereotype). Viewed in that lens, I would say that Beyonce *is* subversive , but the people she’s making uncomfortable are primarily mainstream feminists.
…”“Feminism lite” has always been shorthand for “I choose my choice” feminism. It’s a feminism that doesn’t make the majority uncomfortable… Feminism, at its heart, is supposed to be subversive. It’s supposed to make people uncomfortable. It’s supposed to confront what is comfortable and safe and accepted.”
I’m going to have to disagree here a little bit. Because there have been so many societal rules about what women should and should not be doing when it comes to physical appearance, sexuality, and their bodies, I have to say that there is more than one way for a woman to be subversive in that area. While I don’t think Beyonce is the most subversive female entertainer that we’ve seen, women openly rejecting sexual modesty (in dress and in other areas) has always been subversive for women. It definitely has made and still does make people uncomfortable, and it does confront something safe and accepted- the safe, accepted notion that women are supposed to put out an image of whatever is considered ‘classy,’ ‘lady-like,’ ‘un-slutty’ and ‘wholesome’ if they want men to behave like decent human beings, if they don’t want to get into some kind of trouble, if they want to be role models, if they want to ever get married, if they want to be a mother, etc. And you say that choice isn’t subversive and that it’s feminist lite, that it’s what’s accepted, but women choosing to do what they want when it comes to their careers, their bodies, and their sexuality has always caused an uproar and nastiness when that choice has gone against traditional ideas of what is proper or improper for a woman to do.
Women in general are told that they have to present a ladylike, modest image in order to represent their gender and and be good role models for children who share their gender; And some people also (I’m not accusing you, but I’ve seen it before) have this belief that Beyonce, as a black woman, has even more of an obligation to promote a ladylike, modest image in order to be considered a ‘good role model’ for kids who share both her gender AND her race and to represent her gender. So I wouldn’t say that her choice to eschew sexual modesty is entirely unsubversive. Did you see the slut-shaming racist rant Bill O’Reilly went on against her earlier this year?
H: I’d say its because she is probably the first black woman to really achieve such an iconic level of success without the conventional baggage that comes along with it. But let’s not play clueless here. Beyonce has the status she does because she plays into such a non-threatening ideal about womanhood. Think about it: she’s thin, she had a conventionally attractive face (her nose is slim, her forehead is high, she’s light-skinned), she’s hetero-normative (married to a man, one child), she’s femme, etc. Meaning she fits almost perfectly into the dominant pathriarchal paradigm of modern womanhood. Do you really believe, for a second, that if Beyonce did what she did but looked like Nina Simone, that she’d be where she is? A very dark skinned, heavy set woman with a wide nose? Somehow, I doubt it. A woman like that would be termed “ratchet” first.
@OhDear: Beyonce might be a black woman, but as Audre Lorde pointed out, black women are not created equal. Beyonce is a black woman who does not threaten the dominant paradigm, as I said above. She might be black but she’s a very light-skinned woman, thin, conventionally attractive, etc. She’s decidedly non-threatening. While it does take some level of courage for any black woman to be herself in public, it’s, to me, slightly blind to not recognize that a black woman who plays into the patriarchal ideal doesn’t do favors to anybody but herself.
@Otaku Fairy: I disagree. What gives you the impression now that “immodest dress” is subversive? Have you stepped outside and looked at any billboards lately? Skin is decidedly in now. However (and this goes to my point) it’s in for a certain kind of woman. The patriarchy doesn’t begrudge a woman with Beyonce’s body the chance to show it off – in fact, it celebrates it. Question – if Beyonce weighed 250 pounds, do you think she’d get the same reception? Of course not. She’d be laughed off the stage. THAT is subversion. THAT is confrontation. And there are plenty of people doing it – but they get no press, since, hey, who wants to see that?
Beyonce can be feminist, I’ve nevr argued that she can’t. However, it is worth pointing out that it is entirely SAFE for her to do so. She doesn’t present much of a challenge to the paradigm. And while I appreciate her accepting the label, it must be pointed out that right now, feminism isn’t really FOR people like her as much as its for people who really, truly are outside the accepted margins. The patriarchy is NOT equal in how it treats us. A black, poor trans woman needs feminism a lot more than a wealthy black woman who fits almost all conventional standards does. But that’s because the trans woman challenges the patriarchy far more and thus has far more to fear. Does anybody truly believe that Beyonce took a risk by being feminist? Could it actually wreck her career? No, not by the time she adopted the label.
I don’t think Beyonce’s rejection of modesty is subversive precisely because she is of the type of woman from whom the dominant culture does not expect it (or want it). Right now, the bodies that are expected to cover up are the ones that the dominant culture rejects as lesser – the overweight, the trans, the disabled, etc.
Great comments, Sam.
I also wanted to add that Lennox wasn’t asked about Katy Perry, she was asked specifically about Beyonce.
As an aside, I thought the comments yesterday about race and twerking were really interesting.
Didn’t Annie Lennox perform in a bra in the early eighties? Didn’t she wear a skintight dominatrix outfit?
@Sam: I agree that the hate a woman who’s overweight (or just has more visible body fat than what the beauty standard allows) gets for showing skin and being sexual is different from the hate a more conventional-looking woman gets for showing skin and being sexual. One faces fat-shaming, the other does not. But the other will still generate a lot of slut-shaming and outrage, which is why I still say that even though the standards for modesty in Western society aren’t as rigid as they were before, a woman’s choice to reject modesty can still be subversive. Yes, we have a lot of freedom compared to the way it used to be, but that doesn’t mean we’ve achieved a society where a woman can choose to reject or accept modesty to whatever extent she does or does not want it without there being a nasty backlash, whether she’s famous, fat, thin, young, old, or anything else. We haven’t truly reached a point of tolerance in this area. Once we reach that point, where there’s no longer a message of, “Hey, dress and act like a lady so that you’ll be safe, have value, be accepted, respectable, and a good role model’ then I’ll say it’s no longer subversive to do the opposite.
Wilma: And what exactly is your point? We’re not arguing about whether Beyonce is “allowed” to do what she does. The point is whether what she does can be considered feminist or “how” feminist it can be, especially given how she overwhelmingly conforms to patriarchial standards,
And let it be said that Annie Lennox, while she was wearing the cat suit also had her head shaved into a buzz cut or in the David Bowie-style. Which is slightly more subversive than Beyonce’s current ‘do.
@Otaku Fairy: I agree that there are still segments of society that press for modesty. However, I still see a dominant message that women of a certain size and shape (by which I mean thin) should cater to men by showing some skin. But it bears repeating that such a thing varies. My in-laws are Muslims, and for them, the act of covering up in a society like America feels very subversive – but that’s because they see that we live in a society in which female sexuality is commodified and that refusing that is subversive, and they also get that such an outward expression of Islam isn’t exactly welcome either. For them modesty has become subversion.
For me, while feminism is personal, it’s foremost a liberation movement. And some women need far more liberating than others. Somebody like Beyonce does pretty well for herself inside a patriarchy because she has privileges that allow her to reap the benefits of it. There are women who do not – the disabled, trans women, queer women, women with non-conforming bodies, the wrong skin color, etc. To me, the bounty of feminism must be reaped by these people, above all. Beyonce calling herself a feminist is awesome if it makes people think about the word. However, I’m not sure marginalized people gain anything from Beyonce’s feminism. Her feminism, because it doesn’t challenge the patriarchy, is SAFE feminism. What does she risk when she says this? Almost nothing. She is rich and will stay rich. She still has legions of fans, a husband, a family. There are people for whom “being themselves” is actually dangerous and could cost them dearly. Personally, feminism should be pushing for THOSE people most of all. I tend to think feminists who are lucky enough to sit at the top of the heap have a duty to those below them. I don’t want feminism to deteriorate into a mere justification to conform to the patriarchy (which seems to be happening). I want it to be a liberation movement for women who need liberation the most, and that kind of feminism doesn’t usually get done without aggressive challenges. And that’s not what Beyonce is in the business of.
@OhDear I agree with your comment. What Bey does is entertain us, thats her job. She’s a wife, a mother and a business woman, why is she being defined by what she does on stage; that is only one aspect of her life.
I’m no longer a Beyonce fan but it seems to ne that Lennox is going after Bey because she’s one of the top female entertainers of today. I like Annie but gosh just leave it alone already before you start sounding bitter. During her career Lennox performed and dressed exactly how she wanted, entertainers of today have that same right. I’m willing to bet if men tried to muffle how female pop stars dressed, how they performed and what songs they deemed appropriate for them to sing Annie and a lot of other women would probably be screaming it’s a woman’s right to do all those things.
Agree w/ you V4Real, I like Annie and agree with her OVERALL message, but she should try and make her comments more inclusive, because it really does sound like she keep’s singling Beyonce out.
Futhermore, I really don’t appriciate her “beyonce shouldn’t dance like that on stage because she has a young audience and it’s inappropriate”. Beyonce has such a wide age range of fans, it’s really not her job to tone it down when she’s a grown woman singing about grown women things. I really don’t see when Beyonce became in charge of what kids are suppose to listen to and watch.
Yes. That’s my issue with Lennox’s statement – she’s making very basic, obvious statements about how twerking is not the same thing as feminism and is not very empowering. SO MANY people have said that before. Furthermore, in this case it’s inaccurate. She’s conflating twerking with Beyonce, who has never gone in for that style of dance. Lennox is not talking about the spectrum, she’s talking about one thing that has already been discussed to death, and not very accurately. I don’t think Beyonce is the most amazing #1 feminist or whatever – her work is more creatively expressive of feminism than analytically incisive. But Lennox is no deep feminist thinker either, at least not here. I don’t understand why Lennox had to come for Beyonce, because really, she’s feminism lite too. Yes, she’s been around longer – Beyonce is pretty new to feminism. But I don’t think she is any more serious about feminism than Beyonce. bell hooks is serious feminism. Gloria Steinem is serious feminism. Shirley Chisolm was serious feminism. Marsha P. Johnson was serious feminism. Pop stars are pop stars, and they’re all feminist lite and out to make a buck.
X 100000
Agreed, and I can’t STAND Beyonce. We GET it, you know? Seems like if you’re white, all you have to do to be a legitimate feminist is have a pulse, not so for everyone else. They have to prove that they’re good enough to be accepted by feminism, which…whatever. I don’t have to be a fan of Beyonce to see something isn’t right about this dish I’m being served. But Camille Paglia said Madonna was a feminist icon when she released the Sex book? 😒 Yeah, okay.
I would call Madonna feminism lite as well, but point taken about the stigma black women face in terms of feminism.
I don’t want to be *that* kind of a feminist. I don’t want PoC to feel excluded so all of this is an education for me. I’m learning a lot from you ladies and refining and redefining what feminism means to me as I go along.
I truly appreciate your open mind and respectful debate. It’s always good to hear from you, Kitten.
I didn’t get a chance to read every comment about the history of twerking yesterday but I have an honest question about it’s origins. Was it not originally a sexual dance? Or at least a provocative one at it’s beginnings? You make to sound like Miley was the one who turned it into something sexual when that was not it’s original intent. I honestly want to know since everyone is coming to it’s defense by saying to was in the hip hop community long before Miley did it and before that it was from west Africa. Was it not a sexual dance when it started in the 90’s in the hip hop community or in the west African countries?
Slow clap – you nailed it, Oh Dear!
One think I have noticed is that the women who are true feminists and fights for women’s rights are the ones who never calls themselves feminists and instead shows it through their work.
Queen Rania of Jordan, Ivanka Trump, Meg Whitman, Angelina Jolie, Aung San Suu Kyi, Kathryn Bigelow, Indira Gandhi etc all these women never lectures others about women’s rights. They don’t go on and on about how they are feminists and respects women.
They instead show it by building schools for girls, free and mandatory education for women, driving licence privileges, wartime rape is a war crime, succeeding in the business world etc.
I am not critizing Annie at all but just making an observation.
One think I have noticed is that the women who are true feminists and fights for women’s rights are the ones who never calls themselves feminists and instead shows it through their work.
You can label yourself a feminist and do all of those things too. You can dismiss feminism and do all of those things. What does the label or speaking out about feminism got to do with how ‘true’ you are as a feminist?
Also, their acts are feminist but maybe they don’t see themselves as feminist so are they still ‘true feminists’ then?
Hmmmm, I guess since Beyonce and her mom built a cosmetology center in Brooklyn that helps women in rehab learn skills and she along with Kelly Rowland gave $7million toward the building of low income housing to help victims of hurricane Katrina She too belongs on that list of high profile feminist women who give of their time and resources to help women. Oprah, who built a girl’s academy in Africa to spur leadership among girls in Africa seems missing from your list of women doing feminist work. Michelle Obama, Liberia’ s President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Winnie Mandela, Angela Davis, Queen Latifah women also encourage girls to break barriers but somehow didn’t make it on your list of The Only Legitimate Feminists. I think there’s a pattern here.
Oh, to be able to wear short hair with no makeup and be that stunning! Swoon-worthy. Sorry to disrupt the debate.
That’s my only comment to this debate too! I just got my pixie hair bleached blond, and I don’t look an eighth as good as Annie 🙁
Good for you! I was always too chicken to do that. Felt like I would’ve needed full make-up to not be mistaken for a man! 🙁
*headnodding vigorously* A glorious palate-cleanser after Kim and Tori.
All I want for Christmas is to have tea with Lennox and Swinton.
Annie Lennox (and some of the commenters here too. Oh what the hell, I’ll just say everybody, because it’s something we all need to remember) also needs to remember that no matter how feminist one is, that doesn’t give a person the ability to decide what is or is not sexually liberating for another woman. Saying that twerking doesn’t equal feminism? Fine- I don’t think a dance move can be conflated with such a complex political and social movement either. Saying that something isn’t sexually liberating or empowering for yourself? Also fine. Just don’t try to speak for or over individual women by telling them what is or is not sexually liberating or empowering for them personally. That’s one of the weaknesses of feminism- this need to totally erase one woman’s perspective on her own lived experience, what works for her, and what’s right and empowering for her just because she’s not conforming to our narrow worldview of what women should and should not be doing with their bodies.
The only other thing I would add is that both Beyonce and Miley Cyrus have mixed fan bases- some are adults, some are teens, and some may be children. Some of those fans being children does not obligate either artist to make things ‘chaste’ for lack of a better expression. If a parent is really worried about their 9-year-old being exposed to human sexuality, they can always not take their child to that Miley concert with the parental advisory. It really is not the responsibility of grown women in the entertainment industry to preserve pure childhood innocence, which is a lost cause anyway since children grow up and discover things for themselves in the process. Other than that, I don’t have a problem with anything she said.
Great post!
Applause.
Uhm,commenters like Artemis or Ohdear didn’t “boil down the statement to a race argument”, that’s very dismissive. They explained very well how Anne’s view
on feminism, twerking, and Beyoncé were definitely exclusionary and close to the views of those white feminists who have no idea what intersectionality is. Bringing up points like the different perception of the black woman’s body and how even twerking has to be contextualized was very important. I applaud them for that and I’m reminded once again why I call myself a womanist rather than feminist.
This.
People are so quick to bring the famous “race card” to dismiss our concerns and views.
Yeah, i am still more than ever a proud womanist.
Hear, hear. Why am I supposed to completely driven by mainstream acceptance as if it’s the Holy Grail? It’s like life is one long audition for Black women because someone decided that it is right and natural to judge our every move. But don’t say it! We’re never going to pass muster because someone’s always moving the hoops and denying what is really going on by belittling our concerns. Yeah, I’m DYING for more of that. The interesting thing is that so many people (myself included) have noted that are NOT Beyonce fans and are making a larger point, but that’s dismissed.
We’re womanists and we are tired of this bunk.
White privilege is again at play. Funny how she is attacking Bey (who i don’t like) a black woman without taking as many said into account that Bey is a BLACK person AND a woman. Meaning she is dealing with both stereotypes and with misogynoir.
So many comments forgets those stereotypes – jezebel, mammy, jungle fever…- put everyday on black women.
Funny many forget that Bey is owning her sexuality as a happy married women. She is singing for women not girls/children. Her audience evolves with her.
Why isn’t she allowed this?
It seems to bother so many that a black woman is where she is.
I see the same happened/happening with Oprah where mainstream seems to want/wanted her down from her powerful position.
Right. Don’t cry to me about slut shaming when that has been and is done to us all day everyday for centuries. Mainstream feminism want to be protected by us while crying about needing to be protected from us. We’re ‘allies’, that is, workers for the movement but not deserving of being it’s beneficiaries. Beyonce is NOT, NOT, NOT sacrosanct, but I don’t go in for this St. Annie stance, either.
Thank you! Well said!
Co-signed.
Excellently said Pepsi.
Women, especially black women, still face so many judgements about their bodies and sexuality. We are equal parts Jezebal and Mammie, too sexual just for existing in our bodies and not nearly as attractive since we don’t fit the European standard.
I dare say if a white woman was dancing the moves Beyonce did (because if that’s the most explicit twerking you’ve seen then you’d have shuddered even at a 1950’s performer) there would be no drama. The hip thrusts and steps all following styles and standards of jaz and tap are blown out of proportion.
Furthermore why is Beyonce, a woman who has clearly worked her ass off to achieve a level of athleticism that gives her the ability to sing strenuously while putting on a total show (and any concert-goer has agreed that woman puts on a SHOW) supposed to stand still modestly and sing meekly to appease other women’s body issues?
I love Annie to death–idolized her in the 80s, when I was in high school–but I also remember a lot of her own mostly naked, highly erotic photo spreads in the 80s. Sex helped sell Eurythmics records, too.
I’m with Marcotte on this one.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/annie-lennox-wants-beyonce-to-get-off-her-lawn/
Otaku Fairy, Brionne, Artemis and others your contributions to this thread have been much appreciated.
Though it may be exhausting you all have said so many meaningful and insightful things and your words do reach and influence others.
Thank you.
Agree – your powerful words are enlightening and inspiring, and reinforce why I proudly call myself a womanist as well as a fellow non-fan of Beyoncé!
I’ve learned so much and thank you for that!
I have always loved Annie and this just cements it. She is spot on and seems to be speaking my own mind. These foolish performers think they are exerting their freedom with the tweaking and the ‘I’m so sexy and sexual’ sales pitch. They’re about as free as a dog on a long chain. They disgrace the real women of the past who truly suffered for women’s rights. Even something as small as the right to know our reproductive system was fought hard for. Singing in your underpants isn’t furthering the female empowerment agenda.