Here’s a photo of Dame Helen Mirren with her husband, Taylor Hackford, at the TIFF premiere of Trumbo. She’s wearing a Dolce & Gabbana dress, and I can never believe Helen is 70 years old. She must have no intentions of ever retiring, and why should she? Helen will always be fabulous, and she always has great style. Notice, however, that Taylor’s arm is around Helen. Not around her shoulders, thank goodness. This would be move that would offend his lovely wife. Helen gave an interview to The Mail’s You Magazine (via the Telegraph) about sexist body language. She believes that any man who puts his arm around a woman’s shoulders is trying to assert ownership over her entire person. Some excerpts:
On affection/ownership: “It annoys me when I see men with an arm slung round their girlfriend’s shoulders. It’s like ownership. Of course, when you’re young, you want the guy to take your hand and look after you. But when I see girls being leaned on, I want to say, ‘Tell him to get his damned arm off your shoulder.'”
Advice for herself: “At 70 years old, if I could give my younger self one piece of advice, it would be to use the words ‘f*** off’ much more frequently.”
Her idea of women today: “Still toddlers in this modern world, trying to find their position in the age of sexual liberation, birth control, education and financial independence.”
Her thoughts on marrying late: “A very good idea.”
Her sex symbol status: “There’s a huge pressure on young girls to look a certain way these days but, as I age, I’ve lost that incredible insecurity of youth.”
[From The Telegraph]
Does this seem like a bit of a leap? Many people see an arm around the shoulders as a gesture of comfortable affection. Helen is also talking about established relationships, which usually revolve around individualized notions of what is okay for that particular couple. I don’t doubt that some guys unconsciously do assert ownership and also put their arms around their lady’s shoulder. But Helen’s making a big blanket statement. How exactly does an arm around the shoulder seem like more intention of ownership than an arm around the waist? Or fingers in the belt loop. Eh, I think it’s up to the couple, but feel free to tell me otherwise.
P.S. Helen’s three wax statues at Madame Tussauds are some of the best out there!
Photos courtesy of WENN
Just a bit of an over reach. Still love her though.
Yeah. She is really overthinking this one. Not everything in life has to have an underlying meaning.
This. Over reach but still love her.
Agree – overreaching, though I do agree with Helen that body language often reveals sexist attitudes. A couple of days ago at a funeral, I was introduced to an older man and I automatically extended my hand for a handshake. He refused to shake my hand, putting both of his hands up in that refusal gesture and saying, “I NEVER shake a woman’s hand. Women should not shake hands. I hug them instead.” And then without warning he proceeded to envelope me in a huge, way-too-intimate, very unwanted hug. We were inside the church and the bereaved was nearby, so I forced myself not to react negatively, but it was hard because even aside from the unwanted and way-too-intimate hug, he was saying that women are not men’s equals.
Oh GROSS!!! What a crock of shite. Groper.
Ugh! I hate it when men give me that limp handshake they think they need to reserve for “ladies,” but this is way worse! What a pig!
Wow, sorry you experienced that, that is sexist as hell. Maybe I’m overthinking this but most often times I equate a handshake as a non-evasive sign of acknowledgement and respect, and also to business deals. I’m sure you were put on the spot, but I’m going to remember your story and if some dude tries this to me I’m going to decline and offer my hand instead. I’m so glad I was taught by my father (who successfully raised two businesswoman) how to give a proper handshake.
Yup, Jess & Pandy, it was SO gross and sexist. And Whitney, since like you, I’m used to shaking hands with men in a businesslike way, my hand was already extended to him when he put his hands up and refused my handshake. If it ever happens to you (I hope it doesn’t), just step back quickly, out of reach of his grasping hands and arms. I wish I’d had the presence of mind to do that immediately. Or to punch him in the face.
Yeesh. Someone’s cranky. I think the arm around the shoulder shows affection, not ownership.
Ha!
Gisele does it to Tom Brady too.
Reverse sexism? Or truth to her theory?
Silly random rule. But she’s pretty flawless so I’ll give her one thing.
You know what? I sort of get what she means. If a woman does it to a man, like clings on to his abdomen, puts his arm around him, or actively encourage hand-holding, some people think that’s insecure
Yes, the Dame is overreaching on this one.
When a guy’s body language looks too clingy, my bf always snarks “guess she’s tried escaping before.”
Hahaha! This is great.
I attended a concert of some friends once. There were other sets before them, so there was this young guy with his gf and he couldn’t leave her alone for a second. People asked them to be quiet but he didn’t stop; he was touching her hair, her ears, her neck, holding her hand and kissing her cheeks non-stop.
I could definitely see why she would try to get away from him.
Lol! I dated a guy like this once – we weren’t even exclusive but by the 2nd date he was all over me in public and it was so uncomfortable and such a turn off!
I would have stopped him on the first date,
I think it’s a silly overreaction. I’ve never understood the Helen love. I really do like Helen as an actress, but honestly she often says a lot of stupid things. Her comments on rape were ridiculously ignorant.
Same with Cate Blanchett. Great actresses but can’t read anymore of their interviews.
As a woman, I personally find the arm over the shoulder heavy and uncomfortable. It’s a physical reaction, not mental. She’s maybe over reaching.
This.
Only when we are on a sofa. Otherwise I really like to have my boyfriend arm around my waist.
Exactly. Unless your bf is Ronin Farrow or Orlando Bloom an arm around the shoulders is just too heavy.
Yes! I agree! And it hurts my lower back. My current love is a bodybuilder and early on I tolerated it but now I’m like, “get that lodestone off me!”
same here. I really dislike it because it’s pushing me down (literally) – and making me feel uncomfortable. Maybe that’s what she meant as well? And her husband is taller, heavier than she is, so it would make sense…
For me it’s both. Uncomfortable physically, but also the former bf that used to do that to me was also possessive and I felt his arm on the shoulder thing was an extension of that. I felt like he was claiming me. MINE.
I think that about the hand on the back of the neck is more of an ownership/possessiveness thing but not the shoulder
Yeah, the hand on the back of the neck is creepy “you’re not going anywhere, sister” body language. Over the shoulder – depends on your relative heights. Sometimes my husband, who is about a head taller than I am, puts his arm around my shoulder crossing the street or in a crowd. He doesn’t lean on me, just lightly touching. Maybe it’s protective or gentlemanly or whatever. I don’t see the big deal. He doesn’t “own” me or try to. Maybe she had a bad personal experience with someone who did that.
So if a man puts his arm on his partner’s shoulder, he is claiming ownership?
So what would you say when a woman puts an arm around her partner’s waist? Possessiveness?
Seriously – I love Helen but this is bs.
I disagree. Usually it’s just a sign of affection. Only if the woman doesn’t want his arm around her is it a problem.
I agree with her. Generally, I always found it distasteful for a man to put his arm around the woman’s shoulders, it looks more like leaning on her than caring for her.
But she also has a point with the ownership idea – unconsciusly, this is probably what they are doing.
Reading way too much into that. Maybe there’s a personal experience tied to it though, so agree to disagree here.
Like Helen Mirren very much, although my Dames of choice (if I have to rank) are Judi and Maggie, but this is a stretch. Especially if talking about long time couples comfortably having established their own body convos which vary from situation to situation as only they understand. Any ownership of the way they physically engage is theirs, surely, to be presumed as by mutual “we like shaping our joint physicality this way at this time”.
Heck, at 5′ 11″, with a passion for heel wearing, and a hubs of 5′ 8″ (being generous)… if only sometimes *sigh*.
I know what she talking about sometimes I have seen it. I feel like George Clooney has pulled the move. Sometimes it really means what Helens pointing out ownership. Sometimes an alpha male or person thing or sometimes out of insecurity trying to hold onto something you fear you will lose.
It depends on personality of shoulder holder!!!
I agree that in some cases it’s an alpha thing of “spreading” their body language to take up more space. It doesn’t mean there isn’t affection behind it or even that it’s consciously done, but in some cases it might be more of a “me” thing than an “us” thing. Of course, it might also be a “He’s 6’4″, she’s 5’6″” thing too…hard to wrap your arms around each other’s waists when there is a large difference in height.
She’s a great and charismatic actress, but she sometimes sounds dumb. Plus I don’t understand why she’s considered a feminist icon and a role model for women – she stated once that date rape is part of life and women should get over it as she did in her youth, which is almost as egregious as what Chrissie Hynde said about rape. So, a man’s arm around your shoulder is offensive according to her, but date rape is trivial. Well…
isnt arm around the shoulder more of a friendship thing anyway? not to say couples dont do it but i see it plenty friends doing it. when even straight guys with each other are doing it it really does not seem to have any ownership meaning.
If the couple are comfortable with each other I see nothing sexist about this, a matter of fact I see this as quite loving. Btw, Helen looks fab.
+1
I hate it when women make comments like this because it gives fuel to all the “meninists” on the web. For two days before it appeared here, I saw a deluge of comments elsewhere about how all “feminists are crazy” and it’s frustrating that, in this case, I agree with them.
SHE might feel that it’s a sign of possessiveness, but it’s rude to announce her opinion as fact on what is generally considered a simple sign of affection.
I see your point vilebody, but at the same time, exactly the point of feminism is that when a woman has an opinion, it should under no circumstances be considered a blanket statement on behalf of all women, but rather as the belief of one individual. The fact that those odious meninists can’t make that distinction is their worry, not Helen Mirren’s. I think she’s wrong, but I don’t think there’s any reason for to ask her to keep it to herself. Why exactly is it rude? Should she censor herself?
She clearly made a blanket assumption that young women like having men place their arms around their shoulders because they like “being looked after.” That may have been her case, but it’s not mine.
The point of feminism is that a woman’s thoughts and actions are just as valid as a man’s. With that logic, if the woman makes a questionable statement filled with generalizations, it should be ridiculed just as a man’s would.
The “menists” will get their knickers in a twist no matter what. Helen actually is right. I’ve often seen men being totally clueless as to how they invade others (almost always women’s) space.
I’ve seen pics of HM grasping her hubby’s arm in public..ownership, dearie??
Her wax replicas are great. And I love her. At 70 you get to make some far reaching statements. You go Helen!!!
I don’t agree with her, but she’s the first wave feminist. She’s bound to have some ideas that are going to be different than younger women, those of us who have benefited from the struggles of ladies like her. I’m going to give her a pass.
I agree with your early feminist reminder.
She’s also 70, a Dame, has been asked the same interview questions a thousand times, has seen it all twice, has fought sexism in her profession for decades, and is probably now used to being able to speak her top-of-mind about almost anything.
Idk–I’ve seen plenty of “arm around shoulder” where it seemed creepy-when the guy’s hand isn’t on her shoulder but actually wraps on around, resting above her breast or close to her neck. That is someone asserting ownership. I’ve also seen it be friendly-like a one armed hug. IMHO it all depends on where his hand lands.
Yeah, I agree. I think she’s oversimplifying. Agree with everything else she said tho, including the value of the words “f*ck off.” Succinct and sometimes necessary. I think someone on CB recommended “F*ck Off : A Guided Meditation,” and for that I’m eternally grateful. I sometimes use it with my bedtime yoga.
It’s just a size thing, isn’t it? I mean – my arm is usually on my husband’s shoulders because I’m a solid 3 inches taller then he is in my bare feet. Wearing heels it’s closer to 6-7inches so when we’re out, I tend to be on the top side of things, and his arm tends to be around my waist. No ownership implied on my part (that comes when I choose to sit in his lap instead of a chair! lol Or the way he sometimes hooks his hand into my belt – I tend to wander about without always looking to see where I’m headed and he’s had to snap me back out of traffic a time or two, be it cars or just big crowds) it’s just because I’m taller. My brother and dad keep their arms around their wives when out and about, but that’s simply because dad is 7 inches taller then mom and my brother is a foot taller then his wife – stepladders would be involved otherwise. I love Helen, but I think she’s seriously reaching and looking for something to be grumpy about.
I agree, it can totally be a size thing. My husband is a full foot taller than I am, so he’d have to bend down to keep his arm wrapped around my waist. Usually I hold onto his arm, but he often has an arm around my shoulders or just underneath them. I have vertigo-related balance issues, so we tend to hold onto each other for our own peace of mind, as well. And if I didn’t get offended about the wedding ring, I’m not about to lose it over an arm.
I agree. I think it might be more comfortable for a man to put his arm around the woman’s shoulder (if he’s taller) and for a woman to put her arms around his waist (if she’s shorter). We mainly hold hands, but my husband has done this (hand around shoulder) and I’m sure he doesn’t think he “owns” me.
I rather enjoy that feeling when he puts his arm around my shoulder, especially when we are in a guy heavy place. I’m all for being equal, but come on, not everyone needs to be Miss Independent all the time. I’m super independent in my day to day life, when we get to go on dates (rarely because our little one), damn straight I enjoy him putting his arm around my shoulder claiming me as his to the other guys in the room. Unspoken cues are sexy. But those are my own feelings.
I like him being the alpha male because damn straight, I’m the alpha female. We own our marriage.
He treats me as his equal in the partnership so there’s no imbalance of power. There’s zero harm in that. And it’s feminist for me to say, those are her feelings about it and these are mine and they are both valid.
Almost every female celebrity now seems to feel the need to say something they think is ‘feminist’ and ’empowering’ in order to get attention and be praised.
It’s the latest publicity bandwagon.
I like Helen a lot but she is prone to saying ridiculous and dumb things which destroy the illusion her best roles give, that she is as intelligent as her characters eg Jane Tennison.
She once claimed she feels she has more in common with an immigrant South Asian girl than a middle class white woman.
(I’d have to check the exact quote but that was the gist of it.)
Love her, but I don’t mind her comment. IMO I love when my guy puts his arm around my shoulders when we’re out, but we’re not very affectionate in public anyways. I guess what I am trying to say is, to each their own.
I mean-I put my arm around my husbands shoulder all the time-so I guess I own him now. Misandry!! :p
Actually my pet peeve is when I see a guy with his hand is his girlfriends back pocket. It’s just weird and like he’s groping her. Yuck
What a ridiculous comment. I love when my SO puts his arm around my shoulder.
Love Helen. But what a silly comment. How can you make such a sweeping observation about all couples out there when their husband/boyfriend at some time might have his arm on her shoulder or around her shoulders?
Wow, awesome Tussauds statues!
Ever notice how Oprah often draped her arm over a guests shoulder, if they were famous enough? It always bothered me, like she was showing dominance or ownership. Like the last dog to pee on a tree…
Eh, can’t say I agree. If any woman isn’t into it, though, she has every right to ask the guy to stop doing it. Anyways, this doesn’t make her any less fabulous!
I agree, actually. The number of fellows that refused to acknowledge or appreciate my feelings when I tried to explain the various ways their arm over my shoulder felt like a burden – the weight, the discomfort and the mental aspect as well. The fellows that tried to understand stuck around. Those that didn’t, didn’t last long! I’m 61 (for reference), so not convinced it’s generational.
My husband must be one possessive guy then. Me too, come to think of it. We have two kiddos and still we are usually arm in arm or holding hands or whatever in public. He usually has an arm around me or vice versa when we are sitting next to each other too. I’ve never thought of it as being possessive, but more that we are in love.
I totally agree if the girl doesn’t want his arm there, that is overstepping, but that is a whole different thing than she seems to be talking about.
Just another nutcase actress now.
Brings me back to reality instead of worshiping some celebrity.
Maybe because she’s older, we want to believe she has wise advice? Age and wisdom don’t always happen together. Her interviews are showing she may never have been the brightest light on the block.
I put my arm around my son’s shoulder all the time and it’s not because I think I own him. It’s because I love him. My husband puts his arm around me all the time in various ways – waiste, hips, shoulder, and it’s not because he’s a sexist pig trying to own me. It’s just affection and it happens that he taller enough than me that that’s where his arm is in alignment – to my shoulders. Good grief! Starting to think the homage bestowed upon her in recent years has gone to her head. Lighten up.
You put your arms on your son because he’s yours, though. Your husband puts his hands on you (and you him) because you belong to each other. You wouldn’t extend that gesture to a stranger. Affectionate? Sure. Possessive? Absolutely, and not necessarily in a negative way. I don’t think it’s sexist in every situation, but it is certainly a form of social expression that says, “These people are mine, and we belong to each other.”
If a woman likes it, who are you to tell her otherwise?!
I’m with Helen, I hate it. I’ve always hated a guy propping his arm on my shoulders, even if he doesn’t mean to put weight on me the longer it stays there they heavier it becomes. Sometimes they’d even try to prop it around around the back of my neck and around. I’m just a bit over 5 ft and slight do for me it’s always been a big deal. My husband has finally complied and I hold his arm or we hold hands. My sons are now taller than me and theyve started to do this when we’re walking down the street. I keep asking them not to do it. Especially my 13 year old who seems to rest all his weight on me. I’ve seen other couples and if they are similar in height it may not bother the women as much, for me it’s annoying.
But do you think your son is trying to “own” you? That’s what Mirren is arguing.
Gosh and all this time I thought it was affection.
Not everything in this world is sexist. Not everything a man does is to dominate women. I understand that feminism has been a big deal the past couple years, but the movement has gotten out of hand. Instead of making actual strides, women are coming off as crazy.
I stick my hand in my husband’s back pocket. May be I am trying to dominate him or maybe I appreciate his still pert butt? I think people over analyse these things, but if someone is overly familiar, I find a withering look does the trick.
I’d be curious to see her comment in its original context because there are situations where I absolutely agree with her about the issue. Putting your arm around someone is most definitely a possessive gesture, regardless of whether it’s platonic or otherwise. There is plenty of sexism coded in body language, particularly in the way men find it permissible to invade female spaces without consent. Whether or not it’s specifically sexist really relies on the context and the individual personalities.
“Putting your arm around someone is most definitely a possessive gesture, regardless of whether it’s platonic or otherwise.”
No, it isn’t. It most definitely isn’t.
Since when did a gesture of affection suddenly become a sign of “ownership”?? Seriously, Helen?? OY! It’s called LOVE and it’s ok to let a man love you and show affection towards you without it becoming a feminist problem. I just can’t with these celebs anymore. 🙁
THANK YOU! This. Love is not a feminist problem.
Amen.
Now that she says it it does make some sense. With an arm around your shoulder your body is controlled by the one walking next to you. Arm around the waist or holding hands looks definitely better.
I would argue if that happens constantly then it is exercising ownership. Just imagine a woman would constantly do that to a smaller guy. I think the guy would feel neut**ed.
I remember an article here on celebitchy when an A-list celebrity and well-known modelizer was taken into a head-lock (her arm around his neck) by his new model rookie girlfriend. “She is clingy” seemed the conclusion.
Definitely overreaching. But I’m with those who can’t tolerate the arm over the shoulder for more than a few seconds. My husband is eight inches taller than me and a good deal heavier. No thank you.
Honestly, Dame Helen Mirren, different strokes for different folks. If you don’t like it when your man puts his arm around your shoulder, you’re free to feel that way. But please don’t try to tell me that my man is claiming ownership when he does that; I know him, you don’t, and not all men are the same.
I like it when my boyfriend touches me, period. He knows that there are certain things I don’t enjoy (I’m extremely ticklish, for example), and he doesn’t do those. Other than that, he has free reign. I like his arm around my shoulders, or my waist, or his hand on my neck. I like it when he grabs my ass walking by. And I’m absolutely fine with him signaling in public that, yes, we are together, no sense in trying anything. I do the same.
No problem with arms around the shoulder/waist or holding hands unless it’s a busy street and a couple seems to think that separating to give oncoming pedestrians some space will cause their relationship to crumble. Living in Portugal, the one thing I cannot bear to see is men with their hand around a woman’s neck as they walk along the street – now that’s controlling.
Lol. The peasants call it ‘hugging.’
Guy’s arm around girl’s shoulders as they are seated is fine.
Guy’s arm around girl’s shoulders while her arms are to herself as they are walking feels controlling to me. Or ownership to Mirren. Like the bf is directing his gf where to walk.
Guy’s arm around girl’s shoulder and girl’s arm around his waist or shoulder…. is ok but walking will sure be slow!
I think the context of the arm hanging is what is important. From mother to child it can be protective, from teacher to student it can be a safe way to show affection, and between certain men and women it can be a show of dominance.
Have you ever looked at the way papa Duggar holds down mama Duggar? In every single picture he is holding her down or putting her in place with his hands. That is overt symbolic body language, particularly in combination with her smaller frame and cringing smile.