Unlike CB, I was not a Community fan. But I still fell for Donald Glover. He was a writer on 30 Rock, he’s been building steam as an actor, and I actually love the music of his “alter ego,” Childish Gambino. Glover is young, talented, and he can write his own ticket in a lot of ways. So it’s interesting to me that he chose to write his own ticket by creating a new show for FX called Atlanta. It’s a show about Glover’s character acting as manager/hustler for his cousin, an aspiring rapper and current drug dealer. The show is set in Atlanta, features a primarily African-American cast, and the writers are all African-American too, or at least that’s what Vulture says. Glover can seem (at times) very prickly about doing media, but he sat down with Vulture to discuss the show, and it’s one of the best interviews I’ve read with Glover. You can read the piece here. Some highlights:
Why he did ‘Atlanta’: “I wanted to show white people, you don’t know everything about black culture. I know it’s very easy to feel that way. Like, I get it, you can hear about the Nae Nae the day it comes out. You follow Hood Vines, and you have your one black friend and you think they teach you everything, I get it that Deshaun said that black people love … n-gga, I hate Deshaun.”
On OJ Simpson:“Our relationship with O.J. is black people’s relationship with America.”
On The Catcher in the Rye: “When we were kids, it didn’t make sense to us. This dude is like, ‘Everybody’s phony’ — that’s such a white struggle, not realizing until you’re a teenager that adults are full of sh-t. Black people learn that real early.”
FX wanted the drug dealer character to live in a ‘trap-like apartment’: “We were like, ‘No, he’s a drug dealer, he makes enough money to live in a regular apartment.’ There were some things so subtle and black that people had no idea what we were talking about.”
His relationship to ‘the black community’: “I know when I go to Baltimore, when I go to D.C., it’s like 50-50 — half of them are like, ‘I love this dude, this dude’s cool.’ And the other half are like, ‘This coon-ass dude.’ But I have no hate in my heart for no black person ever. Because we’re in a position where the system has f–ked us up so bad we can’t always trust each other.”
His withdrawal from social media: “A lot of people don’t understand me, which is good. I don’t give a f—k.”
What he wants for the show: “The No. 1 thing we kept coming back to is that it needs to be funny first and foremost. I never wanted this sh-t to be important. I never wanted this show to be about diversity; all that sh-t is wack to me. There’s a lot of clapter going on.” He was referencing a Seth Meyers coinage: politically correct humor that elicits applause but that isn’t actually funny. “A lot of n-ggas be like …” — Glover started clapping exaggeratedly — “ ‘So true, yes, so, so true.’ But what you did isn’t funny; they’re just clapping and laughing to be on the right side of history.”
Throughout the piece, Glover and the writer talk about the beauty and the complexity of black experience, and the black experience within Atlanta specifically. It’s really interesting to me from a political standpoint, because what Glover describes is exactly why some people believe Georgia is ripe to “turn blue” in this presidential election. Georgia isn’t just some backwater state filled with white hillbillies. Atlanta is the center of what has become a thriving black middle-class. And it will be interesting to see a show that reflects that kind of inclusion at every level.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
How wise he is. Truly. There’s no reason to doubt he’s as decent as he is wise.
why does this guy talk so much crap about asians and women?
http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/post/48188214275/donald-glover-childish-gambino
This! I want to like him, I do.
But I’ve heard some of his lyrics and the things he’s said over the years. I think he’s a misogynistic asshole who denigrates women of all races. He loves to joke about rape. He has really strong “Nice Guy” syndrome. He fetishizes Asian women. He says “f—-t” and has no problem with it. He thinks male rape is not a thing.
The final straw was hearing this: “I got a girl on my arm, dude, show respect. Something crazy and Asian. Virginia Tech.”
well that’s a really disappointing read
Ugh, this just broke my heart. Why are so many people assholes?
Yeah he’s been problematic for a while now. It sucks because I was fan before I knew about all that shizz.
I was so psyched to see his show but after reading the link, he sounds gross. Now I get his reference to clapter. He needs to say offensive shit about marginalized communities to be funny.
Really? He did a joke on his comedy special ‘Weirdo’ that, while technically about rape, I thought was amazing. He was talking about walking girls to their cars and realizing that for women, rape is something they always have to worry about, or at least be aware of. Whereas men can just walk to their car without thinking about rape. That and ‘Chase Through the Subway’ by John Mulaney are my favorites, because although they talk about rape, they’re pointing out how little men understand about what women go through.
Yeah, exactly. He makes sweeping generalisations and says disturbingly misogynistic things. I can’t get on board with him.
If only he wasn’t so full of misogyny.
And while I can’t speak about racial issues because my country is almost completely white, I feel like in my country, kids from poorer backgrounds realise how hard and unfair life is much sooner than those who grow up middle or upper class. And it’s sad, but it’s just the way life is.
Yeah, we’re not completely white over here but that’s my experience too, it’s more of a class thing.
It can be a race thing and a class thing. One can be compounded by the other.
I was thinking that too. It’s all wrapped up together here in the US because many predominantly black communities tend be low income. So is it a black person experience or is it a poverty experience? It’s probably a bit of both.
The thing with Catcher in the Rye, even when we read it in high school, at the age the narrator is supposed to be, we thought it was pretty stupid too. Like really? You’re just now catching on and this is your problem in life? And this was in yuppieville.
Probably because, as someone said, it’s a book from the 50s. The access to inforamtion we have today makes kids, from all backgrounds, grow up much faster.
I suppose so, but he’s not that old, is he? CitR would have been outdated even when he read it.
Honestly, I think its predominantly a class experience. But because of past racism, there are more black people in the lower class in the United States.
I don’t like how he dismisses white people’s struggles just because they are white. Not all people are privileged entitled idiots. And it’s not the first time I read something from him whit this sort of reasoning. Like some of you said, it’s not just about race, it’s also about class.
Miss S I totally agree!
I agree to an extent. While I certainly see his point about how white upper class self indulgent myopia and “coming of age” novels which are always super white… I don’t think it’s cool to dismiss the problems of other people entirely because of their privilege or class. There is a lot of that going around. I’m guilty of it too but it’s really uncool to tell an ill adjusted white kid with messed up parents and a horrible past, that their problems don’t matter.
The fetishizing Asian women is problematic too but rapper machismo and misogyny is just part of mainstream rap. I don’t know how you distinguish, I can’t think of a male rapper who’s not guilty of either of those lyrically to some extent.
I like Donald but very few in this world live lives like those depicted in Catcher in the Rye.
It’s funny: when I grew up everyone looooooved catcher in the rye, but I think the current generation of teenagers can’t relate to it and have a generally low opinion of Caulfield. My friends who are high school teachers tell me that nobody wants to read it. Black Swan Green seems to be the new favoured Bildungsroman.
I just posted that above! My high school class thought it was awful too. There’s a South Park episode where the kids read it and pretty much everything they say was how we reacted. If you’re basing your opinion of white teenagers on that book……. well, you’ve got some things to learn too.
Catcher is a love it or hate it book. It either speaks to you like it was written just for you, or you think it’s moronic. Personally, I am the latter.
I liked the book but for me, it captured a moment in time and a class situation that was very, very far from my reality as a girl in a working class family growing up in a neighborhood of immigrants, the majority of whom were not English speaking. Holden Caulfield’s experiences were not mine.
I’m 31 and my actual first thoughts on reading Catcher in the Rye fifteen years ago (I’m not white, and from a country that isn’t white either) is ‘the f-ck is this f-cking asshole complaining about? ‘
I can definitely relate to what Donald Glover says about the whole ‘adults are phony’ thing being a white-teen epiphany, because the whole Holden Caulfield thing is definitely not as universally relatable as some people – primarily middle-class white Americans, in my experience – like to paint it. As a brown girl, his entire schtick was from a different planet, and honestly, every time I’ve asked someone who wasn’t American/a native English speaker/white about the book, the answer has usually involved some iteration of ‘I can’t stand Holden/what a whiny little prick.’
I have met very, very few people who identified with Holden Caulfield and didn’t wonder wtf he was whining about. It’s not a “white people” experience, a middle class experience or an American experience. For some, yes, but it’s far from universal.
I’m white, but J.D. Salinger wrote from a super elite, New York perspective. At least that is how I would classify his most famous characters, despite the fact that he was Jewish and middle class himself. But yeah, that 50s New York WASP stuff is not super relatable.
I could never get into it, and I was a teenager in the 90s. I feel like it’s the kind of book that appeals to people who were fairly sheltered throughout most of their youth and were abruptly faced in their teen years with the fact that adults were human and fallible, unable to protect you from the world forever. For those of us who learned that much younger, regardless if the reason was race, sex, abuse, mental illness, poverty, etc., it’s kind of a “well no shit, Sherlock” deal.
Yeah I agree about the misogyny tainting an otherwise cool dude, but honestly parts of this interview struck a chord. Especially the why he did Atlanta part.
Speaking of Atlanta, yup it’s thriving and growing. Reminds me of a black Austin. I’m gonna laugh so hard if that’s the reason Georgia turns blue this election
Agree with all of this. Misogyny is why I’m not a die hard fan. But his comments on the black experience is spot on with me. I definitely relate to atl because that’s where I parents wanted to move because of its ever growing black upper middle class culture. There aren’t many places like that.
Anyways I look forward to the show
Note to self: visit Atlanta as soon as you can.
I’m in ATL and I can’t WAIT to vote in this election! I’m so excited we’re actually in play-I’ve never lived in a state where my vote truly mattered-TN and SC were always going to be red states.
ATL is a diverse, thriving city, and I absolutely adore it. We just moved here last year and I am SO happy!
The generalizations about the white experience bothered me too. Aren’t we beyond “explaining” others’ experiences? It’s impossible to do. Observe something, reference a white friend that maybe explained it to you personally that way, but don’t generalize the entire racial experience. Thanks!
It bothered me too. It’s arrogant and rude. And, really, generalizing from a 70 year old book? Okaaaaaay.
A 70 year old book that has been held up for generations by the media as the universal voice of youth, or at least American youth.
Pretty much all Donald Glover is doing here, is pointing out that it isn’t so universal after all.
I never understood how it was ever supposed to be a universal experience. It certainly wasn’t mine, and I fit the criteria for supposedly identifying with Holden Caulfield. I mildly enjoyed reading it because I like to read, but the character was stupid and whiney, and nothing really even happened. He just wanders around complaining.
The assumption that he makes that it’s being held up as universal by some monolithic culture, when there are plenty of non-black kids who think it’s equally stupid, is just annoying. Like he’s seeing shit no one else ever saw. Great it you find effective and new and creative ways to share your important observations of the current culture. But you’re not the only one looking, asshole.
It bothered me a bit as well. I’m realizing more and more that my experiences and opinions and desires make me not the average in certain ways, so any time people generalize an entire group of people it bothers me a bit. Especially here since he’s generalizing about all white people based on a book from the 50s that no one I know – regardless of race – loved or related to. If Glover wants to make his point, he should pick a more up-to-date reference.
It’s a joke, yes? The Catcher in the Rye comment? That book is nearly 70 years old. It’s not even a good joke. That’s my issue with him. IF you must make rape jokes, if you must consistently make other minorities the butt of your joke (presumably because your own experience has turned you into an assh*le and now you need to sh*t on other people?), BE FUNNY AND SMART. That is the least you can do. I’m uncomfortable with jokes that are directed at people with less power than you. Go up. Joke about those with more or equal power. But fine, you think you need to joke “down” (which is just lazy), go ahead. Just don’t be a hack.
Don’t like him, never liked him. He’s intelligent and confident and can be funny but he has that particular type of arrogant vibe like he’s the smartest, coolest, wokest dude in the room and don’t you forget it. Add the misogyny and he gets a big ole NOPE from me.
Yeah same. He’s a really talented, intelligent guy but some of his past comments…just NO.
That’s cool Donald. Hope you have fun continuing to prop up black dudes while continuously denigrating women and Asians.
I can’t stand him and the way he fetishizes Asian women are disturbing.
eww about the fetish. Also, seriously, wasnt Catcher in the Rye written when the world was a different place? Do kids still read that?
Since about the second season of Community, this guy has just annoyed me, I think because I started to hear Childish Gambino lyrics. I’m not supportive of men creating careers based on misogyny. I’m done.
Also, while I can appreciate that I had a happy, healthy, stable childhood, I dislike denigrating the experiences of entire swathes of the population based on race. Lots of kids of all races and classes have crap childhoods; no one group owns misery or reality.
Agreed.
I grew up in an orphanage, having lost my parents when I was three years old. Sorry, I don’t see the world the same as Mr. Glover does, apparently.
Teens thinking adults are phoney..gee what new and original thinking..he must’ve invented the concept..oh, brother…
We got liberal hillbillies too, y’all. I’m one of ’em.
I’m am officially NOT honking for this idiot. I can’t even sift through his bull*** to find anything I may find “intelligent”. He’s an a$$hole, period.
“I hate Deshaun”
Man that comment, lmao, there’s always a ‘Deshaun’ of some sort and man I hate them too. People that aid in the commercializations and consumption of black culture for the purpose of making it comfortable and safe for other cultures to slowly distort and devour.
Reminded me of something good I read yesterday about how much like George Bush Jr. Donald Trump softening his tone on immigration and minorities isn’t to actually reach those communities, but to reach those white voters who might feel uncomfortable with someone being so openly hateful. Otherwise those minority communities that do choose to support him are a bonus, the goal is the nervous white individual.
I also agree with another point he’s making though it’s being bashed. There are a lot of children on this planet that have learned that even walking home with candy is a crime. Playing in a field with a toy gun is an executable offense. I’ve said it before but imo minority children grow up and mature faster than their white counterparts. From a young age you’re basically told how the world you live in could actively attempt to abuse and kill you simply because of how you look. You get the full force of racism, no chaser, and are seen as older, stronger, meaner, more difficult and sexual than you really are. There’s no times for lessons on phoniness, the whole world is ‘phony’ in that sense. It’s like living in a world where everyone else’s eyes are tinted with rose colored glasses and your pair never arrived in the mail.
I’m not sure he made that argument. Yours sounds a lot more thought out and intelligent than whatever it was he was trying to say. There is absolutely a point to be made about minority children learning harsher lessons earlier. But that’s not what he said. He said something like “Haha, white kids. You didn’t realize adults are phony? We KNEW.” Which is bs. I assume he’s using it in the sense it’s used in the novel. Kids know. Especially poor children. Those are disproportionately minority children (at least in the U.S), yes. But if he was referring to those experiences, he should’ve said it.
It’s entirely possible that the fact that he sounds so unpleasant and full of himself clouds my judgment though.
@Eternal..Can I say I love you without making it awkward? Lol! LOVE your whole statement! As far as all the misogynistic comments he’s made and probably will continue to make….no one’s perfect and even a broke clock is right twice a day…
If Glover had made the argument as well as you I don’t think there would have been a problem with it. But instead of stating it eloquently, he name-checked a 70-year-old book.
I can’t believe I’m about to type something that’s arguably in defense of George W. Bush, but here goes. W’s (Karl Rove-directed) openness on immigration was about two things: (1) making Big Money happy with cheap labor; and (2) getting ahead of demographic changes. Karl Rove was basically trying to expand the definition of whiteness to include Latinos, in the same way that the definition was expanded generations ago to accommodate the Irish and Italians. (“Whiteness” being more of cultural construct than a literal definition of skin tone.) Rove was trying to preserve the essentially racist nature of the GOP while inviting Hispanics to join in the majority, like, if you love low taxes and hate black people, you can be one of us! Because Rove understood the GOP is fucking doomed in a few generations if it’s seen as hostile to Latinos.
Any remotely sane thing Trump says about immigration will be motivated by concern #1, Big Money likes cheap labor. Because the people who voted for him in the primaries are the same voters who prevented Karl Rove from enacting his plan to welcome Latinos into the big tent.
That was a long, completely off-topic comment, but damn if I’m not submitting it anyway!
@Eternal. Thank you.
While Holden Caulfield is outdated, I get some of what he’s talking about regarding white myopia and how it lingers on in modern media portrayals. I remember watching Joss Whedon’s Firefly a few years back and centering on a scene with Kaylee in it, suddenly thinking to myself, “This character could never be black in an American show.” Neither could River for that matter. Because the idea of the innocent, precocious young woman (girl, really) who is unique and wonderful but still needs protecting is something inherently white in American media. Black girls aren’t allowed to be sweet and innocent and vulnerable because their inherent blackness, and all of the social preconceptions that go with it, takes priority over their girlhood. And that may not seem important at face value, but when you consider how those images influence us subconsciously as we see them over and over again in media, it lends some insight into why, say, Taylor Swift can play at being the ingénue well into her twenties while Travyon Martin is a thug.
This is a kind of a rambling way of saying…I understand what he’s saying there about the insidiousness of oppression, the way it strips innocence away much earlier than it should.
I mean this Catcher in the Rye comment, boy bye. Isn’t that absolutely the same as putting black people in stereotypes cause I’ve read a black author once. He name dropped one book, one that was written 70years ago. To the commenter above: completely agree but I also think it’s a class thing
Plus, who the heck DIDN’T find Holden Caulfield to be a special snowflake little arsehole?
Wow! I don’t know. Just immediate response to this is that the guy is annoying. Please don’t tell me how all white people are/ think. That’s just as aggravating as someone talking about black people the same way. I just shut down and quit listening to you. Maybe he said something important in there but it was lost in all the stupid generalizations.
It is always interesting to see who gets spun as being positive on here and who is called out.
“It is always interesting to see who gets spun as being positive on here and who is called out.”
+1000000
“A lot of people don’t understand me, which is good. I don’t give a f—k.”
OK Jaden.
Ha! Exactly. As I said above, the guy may be intelligent and have good ideas but I can’t get past the way he presents it all so I just can’t tell. He just sounds young and immature to me.
What’s annoying to me about this dude is that he readily says that a white persons struggle is about not realizing that all grown ups don’t speak the truth. That’s not just a white persons struggle that’s an everybody struggle. I hate it when Glover makes it appear as if he just knows what white people struggles are when in actuality everyone’s struggle is different. It depends a lot on the socioeconomic class you’re born in what your struggles will be. Me being black doesn’t guarantee that I will struggle less with something. For instance, it did take me a while to get that all grown ups don’t speak the truth because I was raised in a very religious household that taught me to trust my elders. I have a good idea, why don’t we as humanbeings stop pretending to know other’s struggles based on their color. Assumptions are for arseholes anyway.
Growing up in Atlanta, it was hard for me to wake up to systemic racism, and to have to come to grips with the reality that Atlanta -and all the surrounding OTP towns, were special.
Not that life is perfect here, I’m not Polly Anna, but I didn’t understand racial tension conversation for a long time. I was raised that humans are all equal, and I was surrounded by people who believed we are all equal, and who were treated equally in my soft, squishy, diverse, ‘burbs. I know that gave me a bubble of privilege that I had to pop on my own.
I know white drug dealers who earn enough to not live in a trap house … Not just black experience there.
He is the asshat that makes rape jokes, right? Can’t stand him
Wow. There is absolutely no way I could ever excuse Glover’s comments on women and rape – thank you for the link, @QueenB – though it’s always disappointing to read that someone you once admired is in fact a mysoginist, fetishistic a**.
I’ve got to comment on some of what I’ve read on this thread though – how are Glover’s comments on Catcher in the Rye wrong? I’m very much of his generation, and an African-American at that; and at my predominantly white school, everyone in my class was obsessed with Holden Caufield. His ennui! The fact that no one understood him! His inability to fit in at his incredibly wealthy prep school! My (all white) teachers told me it would change my life. And then I read the first five pages, and thought, “Jesus Christ, what a terrible book.” Just because it wasn’t written recently doesn’t make it any less likely that he’d have had it shoved down his throat in adolescence, so maybe let’s not discount what he’s saying based on something so trivial, ok?
And I agree with @The Eternal Side-Eye’s comments in that Glover was really saying that Holden Caufield is emblematic of white privilege: not getting that the world is an extremely unfriendly place or that it can disappoint you until you’re a young adult, which is a luxury black people definitely don’t have. The world already has a grudge against you from birth, and you’re reminded constantly of that hatred at every passing chance. Not to mention the family dynamics that are often different between white people and people of color; black parents are notorious for being more strict, and getting the belt or the switch isn’t some relic of the past for a lot of us.
So it makes sense for me to hear Donald say, “that’s such a white struggle,” because it IS. He’s not talking about all white people, but he is talking about a struggle that could be uniquely classed as a white one (particularly in America), because we live in a white supremacist society that doesn’t often afford children of color the same kind of innocence. All of you yelling “not all white people!!!” isn’t really gonna change that. And again, black stereotypes are NOT the same as stereotypes about white people. Someone calling you Becky or saying you were probably a bit naive as a teenager is not the same as someone being called a thug or being sent home for wearing their hair naturally to school. Your stereotypes hurt your feelings; ours stop us from getting jobs, limit our chances of getting a loan. They get us killed, and very, very often at that.
Stop getting the two confused, and stop crying ‘reverse racism’ — it’s frankly quite insulting.
You’re dead accurate about the Holden Caulfield thing.
The story is full of so many levels of privilege that people don’t even realise, and make it impossible to relate. For me, the sticking point was that he’d gone to that incredibly fancy school and flunked out and run away….. because he simply didn’t work, and we (the readers) are expected to sympathise/relate to that. The idea of throwing away an education like that is unthinkable to me, because in my community, it’s the only way to social mobility/any kind of financial security (we’re Indian).
And despite all the whining about ‘hdu generalise about white people off a 70 year old book’ – well, that book is iconic and has been held up for decades as THE supposedly universally relatable story about a teen boy. I think it’s perfectly fair to point out all the ways in which it isn’t so universal or relatable – or more accurately, is only relatable to certain people.
“Certain people”: yeah, like maybe 10% of white people. Just because some English teachers (sorry that was foisted on you, I’m Not the One) are clueless doesn’t mean the rest of the world is. And I have no doubt there are white parents out there using the belt and the switch and making their kids VERY aware that the world is not always a nice place. But yeah. The black experience still sucks. We haven’t even gotten past macroaggressions yet, much less microaggressions. I’m sorry about that. Anyway, DG is using his right of free speech to express himself and he’s speaking some important truths but I don’t have to like the way he sends the message. If you fall into the trap of using the same behaviors that you hate and that boxed you into a corner, on others, is that progress?
No one is “crying ‘reverse racism'”, we’re just saying he didn’t make his point well. Both you and eternal above have stated this point much better than Glover did. I cannot argue with either of you because what you’ve said is accurate. Glover’s comment was not as well executed. He did not state why he was making his book reference and generalization, he just made it which means everyone who did not like/relate to that book can be dismissive of it. If he had stated his argument as eloquently as you then no one would have had a problem with it.
I totally agree, and unfortunately the very valid points he made were overshadowed by how he invalidated the life experience of other people. It’s possible to make your point without denigrating others suffering as ”less than”. Plenty of white kids grow up feeling hated, despised, scapegoated and can be victims of awful child abuse in their families and communities. Therefore, although they haven’t experienced growing up black in america (and all the horrible things that entails, subtle ongoing racisim, police brutality etc), they actually DO have some life experience that maybe creates common ground and empathy, and they do not want to see these things happen to any other minorities (women, children, or black people / or all the above). Also I think he’s saying more than ”white people are a bit naive”. The implication is that white people have easy lives and black people don’t. That white people have the luxury of trusting authority and grow up safely, and black people have an entirely opposite experience. So he’s reinforcing a huge divide by making that statement; he could have explained how shocking and unfair things are, without undermining the experiences of others who have also suffered unfair circumstances in their childhoods. I am particularly sensitive about this, having been lucky to survive my own childhood (physically and emotionally). I believe that the others who had the same immediate reaction as myself, have probably also battled very tough childhoods. We would have the exact same reaction if he said ”women are mostly naive until they’re in their teens”. I would have jumped on that too, simply because it’s untrue for me! I wish I had that luxury, to have been a naive teen. I wish ALL children grew up with that luxury.
Well, I can respect that. And I can agree that he may not have expressed his point particularly well, and that you in no way have to like the way he tried to discuss his point. I in no way want to invalidate the experiences of the people on this thread, because I definitely understand how issues like race, class, gender etc. intersect. I think it’s just frustrating for me because it feels like rather than unpack what he was actually saying, the vast majority of people disregarded it entirely; and I’m honestly hearing some of the same rhetoric being used by white people to disregard black people when they attempt to honestly discuss their experiences. My reverse racism comment was referring more to things I had read earlier in this thread – stuff along the lines of, “well if I did that about a black book with a black character, it would be racist!” Yes, it WOULD be racist, but like I already wrote, it goes way beyond simple stereotypes.
Glover made a comment specific to his experiences growing up as an African-American. His comment, as flippant is it might have been, is still something I completely understand, because again: to the African-American community, white peoples lives ARE easier. He’s talking about a divide that’s already there because it’s been institutionalized, whether we like it or not. Can anyone explain to me how he in any way dismissed the experiences of poor, abused or the otherwise difficult experience of white kids? He said not trusting authority until you’re a teenage is (to him) a white struggle, and in America I still argue that it can be classed as such. And I don’t think its necessarily fair to dismiss what he’s saying because he had an inarticulate way of saying it. Like you said, Trixie, he was speaking some important truths – but I feel like that was all lost because people were focusing more on saying, “well that’s not what ALL white people go through” or getting upset because he was referencing an older book.
I also don’t think it’s necessarily the same as saying “women are mostly naive until they’re in their teens”, mrspanda, because we also live in a patriarchal society that is constantly telling women that and much worse. White people generally CAN trust authority because they occupy most positions of authority in our country. How many white people here are afraid of getting shot by the police for wearing a hoodie? For trying to walk home from school? For falling asleep in their own homes? I’d honestly argue that in a lot of the ways the world is clueless, actually, because there are aspects of our experience that white people will never understand. Period. We have to police ourselves from an extremely young age that white people (and I’m only talking about America here, as that is my experience) do not often have to. THAT is what he is talking about. So yeah, I’d personally argue that white people as a group do in a lot of ways have it easier. People here may have had difficult lives while white, but no one’s life here has been made difficult BECAUSE they are white. It’s a luxury I’d kill to have.
Again, stereotypes are not the same when we’re dealing with marginalized groups vs. those in positions of power, but this is probably not the best place to really get into that. I’m also completely aware that this is an issue we’re all probably not going to agree on, and that’s fine. Like I said before, I’m not here to invalidate anyone else’s experiences, merely share my own point of view. And at the very least we’ve been able to have an intelligent discussion without it devolving into something ugly, and that I truly appreciate.
But I’m also feeling a bit weird about continuing to defend someone who clearly holds some really awful views himself, so I’ll just leave things here.
I’mNotTheOne, I totally understand and respect what you’re saying, and as a white non american it’s not really my place to ”weigh in” on such complex issues because indeed life as a black american is beyond my comprehension and it makes me very sad what I read/hear about how many people are treated there. I do get it to some degree though, I do know what it’s like to be unsafe and treated very terribly by authority figures etc, and to live your life on the defensive. Also trying to explain it to others who haven’t experienced that, is very hard. My friends who grew up sheltered really seem like aliens to me, and it’s so hard to explain things to them, they never REALLY get it. So I understand the passion in trying to get the point across. Child abuse is also institutionalised, children have very few rights and up until recently were treated as chattel, and it’s a sensitive topic for many.
I agree that there is a lot to unpack in his comments and because he communicated them a bit insensitively he lost a lot of people early on. he seems like a douchebag in general. Yourself or the EternalSideEye would be much better spokespeople.
I can answer this;
Can anyone explain to me how he in any way dismissed the experiences of poor, abused or the otherwise difficult experience of white kids? He said not trusting authority until you’re a teenage is (to him) a white struggle, and in America I still argue that it can be classed as such.
– Poor, abused white kids learn early not to trust authority. Community leaders, teachers or parents, or even police. Usually dysfunctional or mentally ill parents will live in a crappy neighbourhood, kids get beaten up on the street , police are corrupt etc). That was my experience. So although I’m white I actually do have a sense (maybe) of what it may feel like as a young american black kid. Some entire communities are just toxic and unsafe!
His comment triggered a sensitivity – and simply rang untrue for a lot of people. For those who lost all faith in authority very young, it sounded insensitive and undermining (nearly a bit snarky). I actually interpreted it as ”white kids don’t have troubles” – which I found really condescending. But that may also be my own extra sensitivity to adverse childhood. But the inference is that white people grow up safely/smugly because they only question authority in their teens. This suggests they don’t have any struggles in their childhood and they’re all protected (otherwise they would question it earlier, like most black kids have to). I didn’t trust any teacher, parent or member of the community with authority.
But your comment is really great, and so true,
”People here may have had difficult lives while white, but no one’s life here has been made difficult BECAUSE they are white. It’s a luxury I’d kill to have.
That makes sense, and I totally agree with this, it is a good way to put it. But I’d also add that being white isn’t some Holy grail, it is an advantage for sure (especially in USA), but there are many other factors needed to feel (and to be) safe in the world. By presuming that whiteness = smug and safe, it’s also making a miscalculation… if that makes sense. In many ways our experiences are completely different, but he may be surprised by the overlaps and some of the shared experiences. And maybe that helps bridge the divide a little bit, to know that there are white people who do (kind of) get it and have had to fight also to get where they are – and maybe that can be a uniting factor (in my wishful and idealistic world! 🙂
A lot of white people learn that lesson early too (can’t trust any adults). This guy says white people don’t understand black people but he seems to lump all ”white people” in the same category! Like others have posted above, not all whites are privileged and living in a safe, protective bubble. It’s more about socio-economics (and I understand that in USA it is indeed usually the black people at the lower end of the spectrum). I’m white, but grew up in a violent and criminal community & always had to watch my back & saw some crazy shit. I didn’t trust adults since I was about 5 years old! Anyway I know where he’s coming from but I just found that comment patronising. It’s nearly like saying ”white people problems are all like OMG where’s my mascara!”. When no, it’s actually just privileged people’s problems and plenty of white people have really tough lives too.
Realising adults are full of shit as a kid isn’t a black thing. Plenty of black kids never learn that. Plenty of white kids never know any different. That isn’t about race – it’s about lots and lots of other variables like environment, class, mental health etc etc. He is full of shit.
Sexist arsehole.
He has creepy eyes, and that link to tumblr solidifies his vileness. I still love The Catcher in the Rye: I am black, but I responded to and appreciate Holden’s sensitivity and empathy.