Madonna has been named Billboard’s Woman of the Year, and I have to be completely honest with you: I did not want to sit down and read this profile at all. Madonna’s profiles and interviews are almost always the worst. But I kept seeing quotes from the piece, and I pulled myself together and read it. And you know what? This is the best interview I’ve read with Madonna in a really long time. It helps that she’s talking to someone she likes, and someone I like: Elizabeth Banks. Banks worships Madonna and gives Madge the platform to talk about her current headspace these days. It’s a focused, interesting interview which you can read here. Some highlights:
Ageism, worries about relevancy: “I don’t care. It’s the rest of society that cares. I don’t ever think about my age until someone says something about it. I feel that I have wisdom, experience, knowledge and a point of view that is important. Can a teenager relate to that? Probably not. But that’s OK. I understand that. “Relevance” is a catchphrase that people throw out because we live in a world full of discrimination. Age is only brought up with regard to women. It’s connected to sexism, chauvinism and misogyny. When Leonardo is 60 years old, no one is going to talk about his relevance. Am I relevant as a female in this society that hates women? Well, to people who are educated and are not chauvinists or misogynists, yes.”
How she feels about the election outcome: “It felt like someone died. It felt like a combination of the heartbreak and betrayal you feel when someone you love more than anything leaves you, and also a death. I feel that way every morning; I wake up and say, “Oh, wait, Donald Trump is still the president,” and it wasn’t a bad dream that I had. It feels like women betrayed us. The percentage of women who voted for Trump was insanely high.”
Why she thinks Trump won: “Women hate women. That’s what I think it is. Women’s nature is not to support other women. It’s really sad. Men protect each other, and women protect their men and children. Women turn inward and men are more external. A lot of it has do with jealousy and some sort of tribal inability to accept that one of their kind could lead a nation. Other people just didn’t bother to vote because they didn’t like either candidate, or they didn’t think Trump had a chance in the world. They took their hands off the wheel and then the car crashed.
Whether she was surprised by Trump’s victory: “Of course. I was devastated, surprised, in shock. I haven’t really had a good night’s sleep since he has been elected. We’re f—ed.
Whether she knows any Trump voters: “Yeah, and I’ve gotten into major arguments. They [say they] would rather have a successful businessman running the country than a woman who lies. Just absurd. But people don’t have faith in government as we know it. We live in a country that’s run by bankers. In a way, it makes sense that Donald Trump is the president. Because money rules. Not intelligence, not experience, not a moral compass, not the ability to make wise decisions, not the ability to think of the future of the human race.
Whether she’s ever met Trump: “I wouldn’t call him a friend or anything, but I’ve certainly met him. I did a photo shoot years ago at [Trump’s] Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach [Fla.] for a Versace campaign. He’s a very friendly guy, charismatic in that boastful, macho, alpha-male way. I found his political incorrectness amusing. Of course, I didn’t know he was going to be running for president 20 years later. People like that exist in the world, I’m OK with it. They just can’t be heads of state. I just can’t put him and Barack Obama in the same sentence, same room, same job description.
There’s been a lot of analysis of the demographics of the election, and there will continue to be thinkpieces and books and studies about how Trump won and why Hillary Clinton lost. While I still think it’s crazy that Trump got any significant support from women, I wish Madonna would go further into the demographic breakdown: white women voted for Trump in alarming numbers. College-educated white women were the only sub-group of white women to vote for Hillary by a majority. The rest of the white ladies? They voted for Trump by a clear majority. Hispanic women, Asian women, African-American women, they all voted for Hillary Clinton with clear majorities. It’s not a clear-cut case of “women don’t support other women.” It’s more a case of a majority of white women voting for their white privilege rather than women’s rights across the board.
Photos courtesy of Billboard.
It’s even more staggering to view the exit polls and see that he got a higher share of support than Mitt Romney from Hispanics and African Americans (mostly men). I mean, in some states his share of the Hispanic vote was nearly 30%!!
It’s not surprising that even some males of other races are also misogynists, that’s not the issue. Across the board EVERYONE of all races and genders were floored to find out how many White women chose to protect their White privilege by voting for a racist, bigoted, misogynistic, Islamophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT and anti-disability rights pig.
These women lied to pollsters again and again. And because of sexism we always try to avoid the topic of racist white women, it’s an uncomfortable subject for us women. However they exist and they are only OK with playing second fiddle to White men. They are raised to feel just as superior as their White male counterparts to people of other races including Black, Hispanic and Asian Americans.
This has been a problem from the days of slavery to the civil rights movement to now. Of course not all White women and not always consciously. As a Black women of intelligence I have experienced so many cases of inherent racism and insecurity from White women trying to one up me. I would say waaay more from them than White males. If given a choice I prefer working with White men who come at you with a knife to your face not behind your back.
@TC Agree w/ everything you said, especially this;
“As a Black women of intelligence I have experienced so many cases of inherent racism and insecurity from White women trying to one up me. I would say waaay more from them than White males. If given a choice I prefer working with White men who come at you with a knife to your face not behind your back.”
Preach! I left a job last year because of white women like this. One was liberal, one was hardcore GOP. Both had this same attitude. Couldn’t put up with their treatment anymore, so I quit. My husband is white, and his mother and sister have been much more nasty to me than his father. On social media, there seems to be so many “woke” white women, but I can’t find them in real life. Would be grateful if I did.
This site is my sanity and I wish to express gratitude for rules by which we post. Also through logical and heartfelt discourse, we arrive. Racism was the heart of this election- women who identify as “marginalized” i.e.- non white- voted to support all women by a majority and his support should give us a win for both he mid term elections and 2020. We need to realize the racists wont win again and there is hope for 20202.
TC you nailed it
@TC I co-sign 100%
My mother and my aunt, who are both Asian, told me they voted 3rd party for the election. They were so proud of themselves. I don’t even want to talk to them anymore. To me it was as good as voting for Trump. Thankfully they live in a solid blue state, so it didn’t really do anything. Maybe if they lived in a swing state they would have voted for Clinton. But still. They said that Clinton was a liar. About…emails? JEEBUS GIVE IT UP. Trump is a liar, a sexual assaulter, a hateful bigot…anything bad that was said about Clinton was NOTHING compared to the mangled wreck of a soulless corpse that is Donald Trump. I’m trying not to visit home for a while because I’m still so pissed off about the election, and I know I have relatives that actually voted for Trump. My grandpa said he voted for him because he hoped Trump would get assassinated then Pence could be president. So Grandpa, you voted for a man you hoped would get MURDERED? Mmkay, makes sense.
I guess I’m confused as to why white women would vote for Trump to protect white privilege when Republican policies are by and large anti-women, regardless of race. I don’t think that his victory will be advantageous to ANY women, but obviously there’s the strong possibility of things being worse for women of color.
Personally, the only women I know who were adamantly pro-Trump were nutso anti-choice, (not very closeted) racists, and weirdo women who are trying to get with military men and try to impress them with their anti-Hillary rhetoric. My husband is retired military and I have a lot of current and former military friends. There is a woman who runs with our circle of friends (thankfully living across the country from us, now) who has been making overtures to my husband by trying to demonstrate what a badass Hillary hater she is and how she likes to hunt, cook, and give blowjobs. Well, my husband was a Bernie supporter and prefers women who know the difference between “your” and “you’re.”
I agree with you completely. Especially about the nasty competitiveness and one up man ship of other white women I have worked with and attended church with in the past.
I try hard to monitor my own behaviour, and I am also a white woman.
Good luck to you always.
I think both you and Madonna are both right. This sexist society teaches women they shouldn’t support other women as we’re all “competition”. And white women are indoctrinated into white privilege too. They expect it. They’re just not as blatant about it typically. So the problem is two-fold.
It’s one of those uncomfortable things we need desperately to talk about. It’s not unlike the model minority myth where people of a marginalized group think if they jump through every hoop white America sets up, then they will transcend their race/ethnicity/religion and receive full acceptance from the white male gatekeepers. Nope. Not gonna happen.
It’s the same for women. We will never transcend womanhood, nor should we want to. It’s a divide and conquer trap. And all women, white women in particular, need to realize this.
+1, Radley. Agree with everything you said.
A lot of hispanics/Latinos are conservative in their political thought because of their religious beliefs.
Most latinos are racist. People want to blame it on religion, but religion matters nothing to racist people, just look at white Christians.
Al groups are racist. Is there such a thing as a non-racist groups? I’m mixed race, and hear racism from both sides of the family.
All groups are racist. Is there such a thing as a non-racist groups? I’m mixed race, and hear racism from both sides of the family. Also, Hillary is white, Trump is white. Wouldn’t it be more sexism, if we want to blame it on an ‘ism?
This is an oft-repeated statement that is not true. In fact, he polled lower with people of color than Romney. Latinos (particularly those of anglo descent) have always been enamored of the republicans and it typically shakes out this way. However, a lot of pollsters assumed that Latinos would vote en masse against him, which did not happen.
Figure I’d throw this in here. Although, no-one’s going to follow suit… but, good for him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/elector-christopher-suprun-vote-against-trump_us_5845f542e4b028b32338ff97?eo6ez1jmu4eipb9
It’s so nice to read a Republican saying this… I was beginning to think they were ALL insane (my family included). Yeah, a lot of them denounced Trump when he was running (e.g., Paul Ryan, Romney) but are cozying up to him now that he’s won. If politicians/electoral college members had any moral compass, they would follow Suprun.
I love this. However, and correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t think the electors can just decide to vote for whoever they want. I’m pretty sure, constitutionally, they have to pick someone on the ballot. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, for crying out loud. Why is it so hard to imagine putting her in office? I know there would be an uproar, but I still think Hillary is the way they need to vote if they’re going to become Hamilton electors. Uniting behind a different republican is still choosing party over country, when the will of the people was that Hillary Clinton should be president.
Not correct – while some states do have binding laws for electoral college the harshest penalty for not voting with the state choice is a monetary fine.
Right, but I’m not talking about not voting with the state choice. I’m talking about voting for someone who wasn’t even on the ballot, which is what the Texas elector wants to do.
she doesn’t care about aging? Your plastic surgeon probably disagrees. I didn’t even think she lived in the US anymore…so why does she care who is president?
Because what the US does affects the rest of the world to a high degree.
When you jack your face and twerk your cranked up ass with Ariana Grande, you should own the fact that you are terrified of aging and becoming irrelevant.
With the plastic surgery I wonder how much of that is genuine fear of aging and how much of it is just her keeping up with beauty standards, since famous women of all ages seem to get some type of plastic surgery and/or try to have certain body types. The twerking I don’t see as fear of aging either because it’s not like Madonna has spent her whole adult life and career in a turtleneck and jeans and only suddenly started shaking her ass in lingerie out of fear when she hit the big 5-0. Immodesty has always been a part of Madonna and her image as an artist. The trying to keep herself relevant part though? I believe that 100%. She’s lying/ in denial if she says otherwise.
Newsflash for ya: Sooner or later this orange monster’s presidency will affect us all, no matter where we live. It’s already started. By the way, I live in Germany and in the night of 9th November I watched the results coming in and I cried.
She’s lived in New York City for about the past eight years or nine.
Pretty sure she’s been living in NYC for quite a while now – hence the whole custody battle with her son moving to London. And I agree, she definitely cares about aging… the skin on her face is pulled as taut as a drum. Looks painful.
she lives in nyc. and she’s american. why wouldn’t she care about her country? i care about america and i’m a brit who lives in britain, because it affects us all whether we like or not. to act as if what goes on in the US only affects the US is foolish.
And 3/4 of her kids are minorities. Her Latina daughter goes to school in Michigan. Maybe the whitelash against them has already happened regardless of how wealthy and white she may be. Like Kristin Davis said, her privilege won’t necessarily protect her kids from racists.
And she has allot of money.
Well, she tries not to care, as most of us (aging) women pretend to. But then we still go for the anti-wrinkle lotion and hope for some miracle.
And don’t we all like to look at pictures of ” the famous without make up” an think: they look just like us, in the morning, on a bad hair day…
Sticking withe the general topic: women are under more public observance as how we age!
She’s American. Her kids are half America, her daughter goes to an American school, she lives in America. That’s why she cares. Also what happens to America affects the rest of the world, unfortunately.
She does care about the physical aspects aging more than she cares to admit. But philosophically speaking, I do think she’s OK being the age she is. I’m the same–I’ll get Botox but would I want to be 21 years old again? Hell no.
It actually amazes me the amount of people who don’t know American policy affects all countries. Time and again I see comments where it has to be explained to someone. How can you not know?
I think it’s quite easy to say you don’t care about ageing if you are Madonna. I agree with her totally about having knowledge, experience, a point of view that should be listened too. I am not convinced that others share that view, however. And there are significant drawbacks. While there are spry 90 year olds, many women develop health issues, major or minor, that restrict activity. I have a number, including arthritis, which mean that I simply can’t do heavy housework or home decorating in the way that I used to. If I need it done, I have to pay for it. While I can do that, many older women are disadvantaged pension-wise by having taken time out to have children, and will suffer financially as a result as they age. Madonna will never have those sorts of issues. Money insulates. And she should stop with the cosmetic surgery. It certainly risks looking hypocritical about not caring about ageing. What she says about Trump does resonate with me, however.
She doesn’t just look hypocritical about “not caring” about aging, she looks ludicrously and profoundly dishonest. Her face–practically a transplant, now, w so much plastic surgery and fillers–and her strict discipline in keeping a young looking body, completely bely her words of alleged lack of concern. I can’t stand Madonna and never could: she is so fake, so entitled, so self centered. And when someone lies about their fear of aging so enormously as she does, it’s hard for me to know when to believe (or care about) much of *anything* else that she might say.
At least with Madonna’s talking points I didn’t need a special “post-truth” decoder ring like I need every time Clockjerk Orange tweets.
The fake news coming out is potent and may have severe consequences for ordinary citizens (pizzagate). China, despite making nearly everything, does not possess this decoder ring and relations between the two countries could deteriorate quickly.
Say hello to a major recession. Yay.
Which is what happens when a government is run like a business.
I suspect we’ll be hearing a lot of “But Hillary…” (the new “Thanks, Obama”) over the course of the next four years as the full weight of this decision is felt by the country and the rest of the world. Anything to keep these people from admitting that voting for a failed-businessman-turned-reality-TV-show-host to run this country maybe wasn’t the brightest idea.
I got into it with an EMT on my guy’s FB last night who accused HRC-voters of coming up with “bullshit reasons to hate Trump”. Please. No need to fabricate anything. Trump has given us so many legitimate reasons to be terrified of his presidency from his Neo Nazi cabinet selection to his business conflicts of interest to his Twitter rants and phone call to the Taiwanese President and on and on.
AND HE’S NOT EVEN IN OFFICE YET.
*runs away screaming*
Ugh, Kitten, that’s my thing. All these damn dudes keep saying “MEDIA BIAS! MEDIA BIAS AGAINST TRUMP.” No. No. No one is just making this stuff up. It is real. It is actually happening. You don’t need to spin Trump’s words to make them look bad. They just *are*.
GAHHHH!
I had a FB scrap with a white female trump supporter who said the exact same thing. “the liberal media bias against trump makes me sick”. I explained to her that I wasn’t reacting to any “spin” about him- I was reacting to exactly what came out of his mouth in rallys, in the debates, and what he himself tweeted. If a news feed seemed sensational I would “fact check” on several news sites and on factcheck.org.
I think the media played a big part in getting Trump elected. There was very little intelligent critique or analysis about a lot of the crap he was spouting. And that wouldn’t have been difficult, given that he was inciting racial hatred, as just one example.
A Chinese colleague was visiting my office in August, and he asked me what I thought about Hillary Clinton’s brain damage. I looked at him really confused, and again he said that he heard that she has brain damage. I explained that that was a rumor spread by Trump. He told me everyone in China took that as fact, as real news. Ugh. I just can’t.
The fake news was so cheesy. The problem wasn’t the propaganda, the problem is the racists -wanted- to believe Hillary was “crooked”, plus the republican base has the collective discernment of five year olds. I have no doubt the propaganda went to other countries. The electoral college was set-up to save the masses from collective manipulation- exactly what trump did to his supporters!
It was maddening how the media helped Trump with the “crooked” label. They constantly repeated his lines like puppets reinforcing Trump’s narrative. Media was such a huge disappointment and still is in that it is continuing to normalize. Is the FBI, Comey, at least looking into Trump’s taxes? How can secrets be revealed to a man that is so foggy in his “business” dealings. This conman needs to be thoroughly investigated by the people who helped him win but even the American “justice” system can’t be trusted now in America.
well, madge aint lying here
Yeah I’m not a fan but I found myself nodding along with her.
Lol. You found yourself nodding along with her! That cracked me up for some reason Miss Kitten! I needed to giggle, it’s been awhile.
Yep. I was nodding along as well.
+1
I agreed with everything except for her horrible description of women not seeing other women as part of the tribe….what?!?!? My best friends are women, my female co-workers and I make each other laugh to make the day go by quickly. I feel like she must have a very negative view of women to make that kind of generalization.
i would rather work with men than women, even though there are women I consider best friends. All you have to do is see the vitriol of women against woman celebrities to know that they are trying to pull them down to their “level”. Just look at the negativity towards Madonna’s dancing “at her age”,
Everything she says makes so much sense. “Women hate women. …Women’s nature is not to support other women. It’s really sad.”
I see that in my profession- Medicine. I wouldn’t have phrased it as “hate” or say that “men support each other”. But men build circles (fraternities, male Alumi clubs…), they compete on a academic or more “physical” level.
+1
So true. I was incredibly impressed by Obama female staffers’ mutually beneficial “amplification” strategy and hope we see more of that in other fields.
+2
Funny thing about this post is that Madonna’s main talking points were about Trump but some couldn’t resist talking about her being ok or not ok with aging. Which is nothing new because we know that she has had plastic surgery and so on.
Madonna-““Women hate women. That’s what I think it is.”
Maybe she’s on to something here.
I have to say when a woman is sexually charged I honestly feel competitive energy and suspicion. I’m on a good place right. Im not needing a male and not wanting sex. Mainly because I’m so completely disgusted that we have a sexual predator as the president elect. I have virtually no sex drive. That said- my single friends who are sex driven do come off as jealous of other women. My point is that it may be a biological and unconscious imperative that we should admit and deal with. That said, educated women can rise above most aspects of biology. I just want to be around smart and political people right. Is of any gender. I need support because like Madge – I wake up every day to the reality nightmare of all this is this president elect.
This is interesting and eye opening to me, I have been on receiving end of hate from women who like to hang in a gaggle and use numbers to push someone out of the tribe most of my life. I guess I would have to describe myself as ‘sexually charged’ but never overtly so, and so I never understood the hatered, I never felt I did anything to warrant it. I am still confused by this but as I get older I’ve learnt to care less.
I have to say when a woman is sexually charged I honestly feel her competitive energy and suspicion. I’m in a good place right. Im not needing a male and not wanting sex. Mainly because I’m so completely disgusted that we have a sexual predator as the president elect and have virtually no sex drive. That said- my single friends who are sex driven do come off as jealous of other women- I’ll be honest. My point is that it may be a biological and unconscious imperative that we could address. I just want to be around smart and political people right now -of any gender. I need support because like Madge – I wake up every day to the reality nightmare of all that is donald trump.
Our nature is too already dislike one another and compete against one another. Goes all the way back to when we had to win the man to survive. Now we have the media and commercialization of our culture which deeply divides us and pits us against each other. Notice commercials geared toward women are more individualistic and commercials for men tend to be more group focused. Even books, the loner girl (Hunger Games) saves the day. My brother has a theory war itself has bonded men throughout history as well. Women had to stay home, take care of the front while men as groups had to depart and rely on each other to survive.
“Goes all the way back to when we had to win the man to survive.”
This is actually false. Women did not compete with each other to “win” a man. It’s the opposite in humans and other primates. Men (or males in other animals) compete between each other for women (or females in other animals). Have you ever seen how a group of men behaves when next to a woman? Like roosters in a chicken hen.
Women have quite the power to turn men against each other. Unfortunately, most don’t realize it because most they were brought up to be “good girls”.
Oh women do compete for male attention, don’t fool yourself. We just do it more subtle ways and yes…bring the claws out against each other. We change our behaviors, our interests, our dress, our appearance etc…. to attract. While women won’t parade like roosters, we will throw in some charm, flirt, the “coyness” good girl act, the bad girl act, whomever you are trying to attract. Both sexes do this we just approach it in different ways. It has been dictated by longheld, outdated, traditions of the women shouldn’t be aggressive or outrageous. So we are way more subtle but absolutely we are trying impress our interest.
I see it in the legal profession too. Few women have positions of authority and of those that do, many prefer to be the only woman in the room than to help other women get to their level. At least this is what I see in private practice.
Margaret Thatcher famously did nothing to support fellow women politicians. Quite the opposite. There were competent women in parliament, but they were never appointed to major positions.
I think maybe the jealousy isn’t a gender thing- but a narcissist thing. Some men compete constantly and also some women. I’m a private contractor and the women who run various companies all behave kind of differently. I thought maybe it was the more sexual women, but now that I examine it, the women who are self-absorbed and insecure only want sub-par people around them.
Yup. If the men are only going to let one woman sit at the table, why would that one woman help another woman? So she could lose her seat? I doubt it. This is from 30 years financial services experience.
She doesn’t care about her age?! I wish she didn’t! Madonna seems to want to stay frozen. I wish her age-gained wisdom would tell her to stop with the nips and tucks (and apparent butt-lifts) and accept herself as she is…ya, like that’ll happen 🙄. I love her but she is like so many women of a certain age who treat aging like a disease that must be cured. Ain’t doing any favours for women on that front!
I guess I can only speak as the white woman that I am in agreeing with her completely about women hating women. (I sometimes see signs of it right here on this site.) White woman helped enormously to put Trump over the top and their actions have sickened me. The ridiculous things they believed about Hillary while giving Trump a complete pass is proof that sexism as well as racism exists in a very big way in America.
I think Madonna is in denial, however, as are most beautiful older celebrities, when they say age is just a number. If they really thought this, they wouldn’t be working so hard to look youthful through aids like plastic surgery, etc.
She made valid points.
Yes I agree. Is it because we don’t grow up playing sports and learn how to work as team as much as men? We learn ballet, swimming, gymnastics and skating, sports where you compete for top position. I know some girls play basketball, baseball and soccer. But do we grow up learning each player is valued? Not as often as men do. It sets a precedent.
“We learn ballet, swimming, gymnastics and skating, sports where you compete for top position.”
And don’t forget beauty pageants.
Agreed. I think this was a great interview, and she gave a strong voice to a lot of our feelings.
in my experience it’s straight women who *can* have a tendency to hate other women. it’s structural though, and a behaviour you learn. it doesn’t have to be that way.
…but it is that way even if you don’t participate in it. Women have built it into our “culture”.
I used to bristle everytime I had someone express that sentiment about women hating women. Then I got older. The way she articulates may be a little crude but its an accurate observation. I cant think of another group that participates so whole heartedly in its own oppression. Yes, there are racial minorities and gay people who work against their own interests but not as many and as profoundly as women. I dont just mean in the elections, I mean in everything including what they teach their kids. It may be that patriarchy is more pervasive than other forms of oppression but all indoctrination and self help is erasable. That there are women who place their social and political identity in everything other than being female just means Madonna is right.
Men hate women and women hate women. If we dont start addressing that instead of bristling at the generalisation then we will get nowhere. And thirty years from now there will be a new Megyn Kelly ripping the benefits of feminism while bitching about feminists. And perhaps a president who says that gay rights are now settled law even if they are fairly recent BUT SOMEHOW Roe v Wade ,which is over fifty years old, is not settled law. Why? Because he knows that attacking rights that encompass some men will be a fools errand but go after women and you’ll get away with it.
great post. much truth.
Similar feelings here. There was a time when I thought things would get continually better for women, but even though we have made progress it is an uphill struggle every day for many and unfortunately I have gradually come to the realisation that women (still) are their own worst enemy way too often.
I agree with a lot of what she said. In particular, the way she felt like a death had occurred after he won the election. Disbelief and shock that still hasn’t gone away.
Feel exactly the same way … like a death happened. Never expected these results in America in this day and age and am going through the stages of grief while hoping that the “acceptance” stage never shows up because it will be normalizing the unacceptable.
Powerful words robyn…..how do we ever accept this. Only time will tell I guess.
My libido died. Or maybe I’m really examining how I’ve been complicit in the rape culture. Letting men get away with uninvited advances. Obsessing about how to be more attractive. This has been a wake up call. My children watched the debates and this has all changed my self perceptions. I was politically and culturally a bit numb before- now there is no going back to old complacency in any matter. I’m not going to credit the orange thing for “a wake up call” because he is the product of women like me who were part of the problem.
By the way, this feeling of death … it is also a death about believing in the human race and human goodness and human logic in America. Some people just can’t see what is wrong with Trump or they overlook, including religious people, and that is very painful and eye opening in a terrible way. How is their line of reasoning different than any other group that does the obviously wrong thing but excuses it in the name of some cult or religion or creed.
Yeah my first post on FB the next morning was “Betrayed by my country, that’s how I feel.”
And I DO feel betrayed by white women as well.
“I just can’t put him and Barack Obama in the same sentence, same room, same job description.” This all day, every day!
Women don’t hate women: feminism is so poisonous to the patriarchal workplace that women consciously or not, distance themselves from other women, to show themselves as separate from the idea of movement, or female union. Divide and conquer. This is Marxist feminism 101. History shows us time and again, the social stigmatization of women’s communities and this myth of women hating other women just supports a narrative that we are emotional and untrustworthy.
Interesting, T. Fanty. Makes sense to me…
You have an interesting and informed perspective and perhaps “hate” isn’t the right word but it covers a lot of territory while overgeneralizing the phenomena of this extremely revealing election. I do think that women are still in the “prince charming” mode and that Christian fundamentalism and its patriarchal traditions still play a very big role.
I have to add that even a prince charming that is all things NOT charming is better than a woman boss to many.
We still exist under a patriarchal ideology. Two thousand years of gender oppression leaves this in our blood. We are all conditioned to compete for male approval. Look at the witch craze, as just one example. That tells you all you need to know about women who exist outside of the male constructs of value and don’t give a toss.
I get that we all have to live in a world like this, but it doesn’t mean we should buy into it. I actually expected more from Madge.
T. Fanty- spot on. Women still view other women as competition for male approval. And as long as feminism is a dirty word, it will be used as a tool to divide and conquer women to keep them under the patriarchy.
I will also posit the theory that Hillary Clinton is too good at playing the man’s game (politics) that she turns off the segment of women who truly feel it’s wrong for a woman to act like a man.
I agree. And, disgusting as it is, it didn’t help that she has never been beautiful. She looks like the “wrong” kind of feminism and many straight women don’t want to be/can’t afford to be affiliated with that.
Hillary is a true and natural beauty. She rather didn’t care much about makeup and playing up her feminine features.
T. fanty But Hillary was a beauty! When Clinton first won she was the most beautiful first lady we had had. I think its a contest between her and Michelle for prettiest first lady. (Cyborg Melania doesnt count but perhaps her surgeon should get a mention). Seriously, Hillarys cheekbones! Thats not contouring or surgery, those were natural. The problem people had is that she didnt play on her looks, in fact she actively downplayed them. If you look at her videos from that time, her hair is always in some alice band pushback and she is always in a power pantsuit. Some of us identified with her but sadly most women were threatened as were most men.
Hey Ramona, What about Jackie Kennedy? And we don’t really know how a lot of the others looked in real life.
@Ramona- Hillary is pretty, but there’s no denying she has been criticized as ugly, especially in her early days as Arkansas First Lady, when she was a mousey, brunette, spectacles wearing, Hillary Rodham.
I have to admit I’ve never understood it when Hillary has been described as ugly.
She’s not sexy like J-Lo or Angelina Jolie, but I can’t think of any female politician who really is. Sarah Palin is probably the closest to “sexy” I can think of, and she’s not close to J-Lo’s or Angelina Jolie’s sexiness either. Conversely, I can’t think of any handsome male politicians who are sexy in the vein of Brad Pitt either. Handsome, yes, but not sexy. David Miliband of Britain is handsome, but he’s not necessarily sexy the way a movie star is required to be. I wouldn’t expect Hillary Clinton or any other female politician to be like Heidi Klum, prancing around in underpants (which for reasons that are unclear to me seems to pass for exceptionally pretty these days).
Exactly. My response to Madonna is, “No, YOU hate women.”
No, there are women that just hate or despise other women. I know a few.
Not to say it’s the case with all women (that wouldn’t be accurate) but some women just don’t like other women, esp women in a position of power. There are plenty of women that voted for Trump just because they didn’t want a woman president.
It reminds me of the comparison to men. When a man is being direct/tough he’s just being assertive but a woman who does the same thing is called a bitch.
That’s how I feel because no one in my family or friends acts this way. We joke around and enjoy each others company.
Some women who get to the top do so by taking on the worst traits of the masculine management style. The two terrible women bosses I had seemed afraid to show any trace of warmth or humour or humanity: presumably in case it was interpreted as feminine weakness. I don’t think that’s success, and in the longer term I don’t think it helped their careers. Taking people along with you rather than driving them ahead of you or dragging them along behind you makes sense. I have also had terrible male bosses, but I think their motivation was different. I hope as women become more secure in senior roles the female Gordon Geckos will disappear.
Oh shut up madonna. I hate it when celebrities use reductive but click baity statements like this just to get attention.
“Women hate women. That’s what I think it is. Women’s nature is not to support other women. It’s really sad. Men protect each other, and women protect their men and children. Women turn inward and men are more external. A lot of it has do with jealousy and some sort of tribal inability to accept that one of their kind could lead a nation.”
May…Merkel…Meir…….Thatcher…Johnson-Sirleaf…Fernandez de Kirchner…
Hasina Wajed…Grybauskaite…Ing-wen
In this country (this country is misogynistic…period)… not, in others….too many to list here.
http://www.jjmccullough.com/charts_rest_female-leaders.php
I was about to say Asia has been electing women leaders for many years now. Yes, even those nations with very patriarchal culture. Having a female prez is a novelty in America.
Argentina has been struggling with horrifying violence against women. Kirchner became president because her husband was president before her.
I don’t think that countries where women have been elected are not misogynous, there are many issues involved in an election.
I actually think Madge is onto something here.
Show support for a woman for questioning the recount. Donate $5 or more to the election recount if you can. Even if we can’t get another prez, we stood up to say this president elect is unfit to be president because of everything he stands for. There may be a sliver of a chance to have a fit president. There may be a sliver of chance the electoral college decides to deny the presidency to Trump in mid December. Let’s try to do fight for what is right, right now.
“It’s more a case of a majority of white women voting for their white privilege rather than women’s rights across the board.”
Nailed it, Kaiser!
I live and work surrounded by Conservative white Christians in the South; I’ve been nestled in their midst for almost 2 decades, in my little Liberal bubble. Long story short: day after election in the office, it was the WOMEN who were being nasty and grossly sexist; they all wanted to rip HRC apart, burn her at the stake… and honestly I was stunned and upset so much by this I had to leave. That’a never happened before. I was unhinged by the raw HATE seething off these women towards HRC. It wasn’t about Trump winning so much as it was about HRC LOSING. They were like a lynch mob, ready to tear her apart… apparently because she had the nerve to run for president-? I still don’t understand it. At all. But yeah I guess some women do irrationally hate and mysogynostically undermine other women. And I’ve seen it and it’s deeply unsettling
I don’t think I could have handled that–I’m too fragile. Seriously though what the f*ck is wrong with them?
That’s a hostile work environment and I’m sorry you had to go through that.
@kitten- I’ll tell you what’s wrong with those haters: They watch fox news, read breitbart and info wars, and have latched on to that media’s excuses not to vote for a woman. Because they don’t really want one. They say it’s just about HRC, but they won’t ever vote for a female president. The next one that comes along, they’ll buy into the slander that will for sure be thrown her way.
I completely agree, which is why every time I see a comment like “I would have voted for a woman, jut not HRC..” I want to punch a wall.
Internalized misogyny is such a sad thing.
Exactly, Kitten. If women were willing to vote for other women not named HRC, then female candidates would do better in Presidential races. There’s a reason they don’t.
i think that’s because these women “know their place” and it’s driving them so mad to see women like hillary breaking out of it. because they can’t, even if they wanted to and so they tell themselves it’s impossible. they are bound and they can’t free themselves, but actually they know deep down that they could. facing one’s own inability to break free from convention is a very powerful and destructive emotion.
maybe generally why conservatives rage against any sexual expression et al. that deviates from the patriarchal norm. people that do what they feel like, because it feels good and it doesn’t hurt anybody show them that they could, too. but for some reason they can’t liberate themselves and so they hate everyone that can. “if i can’t, then you can’t. and if you still do, i will kill you to show you that you can’t.”
Wow great insight Anna!!!!
Very well put. I think so many women didn’t go for what they wanted in life because they internalized our culture’s pervasive misogyny. These angry women opted for marriages to men they didn’t love, sex lives they didn’t want, children they perhaps didn’t fully want, belonged to religions that made them work like dogs and reminded them they’re second to men, and opted out of the studies and careers they really wanted. It’s very sad.
And so they strike at the woman who made compromises like humans do, but went for the brass ring.
@anna- spot on. So many of the Hillary hating women I know call her “nasty” and “evil” and so many other awful adjectives they would never dream of using on men. They feel compelled to do this, imo, because if the world isn’t men in charge, then the world as they know it goes away. They’ve invested too much in the patriarchy to not uphold it. But they don’t realize that. They simply parrot nonsense hatred about various women like HRC, and then say it has nothing to do with her being a woman. When it clearly does, or they’d be aiming their vitirol at a guy like Trump. Instead, they make excuses for him.
They have their heads so far up their butts, that all they can swallow is bullsh-t.
Wow….never thought about that perspective but it makes complete sense to me.
Thanks for sharing all your insightful comments. You guys are the best!
That’s an interesting point. And it reminds me that back in the day, I felt like people had an irrational hatred of Bill Clinton because he embodied the American dream, as counter-intuitive as that may sound. But he did come from humble beginnings to become a Rhodes scholar, Arkansas’ Attorney General and Governor and then President. And I really think that bothered a lot of people. Because people wanna be justified in their failure-especially struggling white people. They don’t necessarily wanna be reminded that yes, they too can do it. They wanna do it as long as “it” doesn’t required a ton of hard work, sacrifice and determination. And please don’t remind them that whiteness can come with certain privileges in the US.
For example, I sympathize with people who are losing old school manufacturing jobs. But the market can, will and must evolve. What are they doing to evolve with it? Sometimes you have to do that hard thing. My husband got into debt so that he could further his education, directing it at the tech economy. He worked during the day and went to class at night. Then he’d come home and do homework. Sometimes, he’d only get a few hours of sleep. But it paid off. He did the hard thing to better himself.
I honest to God think people talk a good game about this kind of thing, but don’t really wanna have to do it. And they resent people who work their butts off and succeed.
Yea, the hate directed at Hillary was odd. Even some of her reluctant supporters were more vicious towards her than that hateful troll, Trump. For instance, Chapelle said he reluctantly voted for Clinton but then claimed that somehow she was the one who leaked the sex assault bragging tape. Trump’s female supporters made excuses for him like “Oh, all men talk like that” regardless of whether or not they had daughters themselves. We should have been united in our horror against Trump but instead everyone including SNL was making him out to be this loveable buffoon and directing their vitriol at Hillary. Oh, “she’s a liar!” but somehow Trump and his fake businesses aren’t (a la Trump University)? Seems like Hillary had to be 3x as good as a man to even out the playing field, and her fault was that she was only twice as good.
Good points and, honestly, why would you even need to have a daughter to understand that sexual assault is bad and that Trump is too horrible and disqualified himself too many times to lead a great country like America.
So Madonna’s had work on her face, it’s show business, emphasis on the word “business”. The only woman I can think of who hasn’t had work is Annette Bening.
Head out to BuzzFeed and read Anne Helen Petersen’s essays on the woman issue. People magazine putting Trump on their cover (this after a female People reporter wrote of her encounter w/ Trump) and embracing their minivan majority, that we should fear Ivanka, evangelical women (w/ hip appearances) and Trump and most chilling, how much America hates women. Women of color, sexuality, women sexually assaulted and on and on.
I cried an ocean of tears on the 9th and the day after that I was angry. I read up on the gerrymandering since 2010 by the GOP. I’m reading and studying, ready to roll up my sleeves. I still have my moments of “Oh God, Trump was elected!” but people get ready, we have to work the long game and start all over again from the ground up.
Talked about this with my 17 year old niece this morning. She says yes, women hate women but that is more true the older the woman. She believes men hate women more than women hate women. She is also really mad at the millennials who did not vote.
I think I agree with your daughter on everything.
I agree with everything she said, except for the part that “it’s in our nature” to hate each other.
We are taught to compete, to tear other women down, to despise traits associated with femininity in our culture. Our mothers do it, our teachers do it, magazines for girls do it. They say “it’s how it is”, but it’s actually how we’re taught it is.
I have to say I agree with everything Madonna says, she is saying the same thing that alot of other people think. Donald Trump should remain in Trump Tower and be Donald Trump, he shouldnt be president and running one the biggest countries in the world.
This is pretty much what my mother said. Her feeling is that middle aged white women in particular are the worst of the lot – young enough not to realize how bad it really was before women’s lib, old enough to fool themselves into thinking they got there on their own. She’d be satisfying with watching them eat their failure, but it’s the younger generation that will suffer.
Veronica- I have to respectfully disagree with your mother. I don’t think these HRC care about women’s lib at all. To them, it’s liberal nonsense. They’re the types who think women’s rights are bad- that it means women killing babies, divorce, premarital sex, LBGT rights, and all sorts of other bad “progressive” ideas. I think they remember what it was like, and don’t think it was bad. They want to repeal Roe v. Wade, don’t believe women should use birth control, and that women’s place is raising children with their husbands. They’re the kind that thinks a woman is “asking for it” when she wears certain clothes, and tell their daughters to act like “ladies.” They defer to their husbands in all major decisions, believe that women and girls are to be “cherished” and “protected” like property, and essentially believe that any woman screaming “sexual discrimination” or “harassment” is a troublemaking b-itch.
In short, they don’t think women need liberation– at all. They will deny the wage gap, and every other sign of gender discrimination. Ultimately, there too asleep to even be as woke as your mother describes. She’s giving them too much credit.
I loathe Madonna but she has some interesting angles on why Trump won. Many women tend to shun other women who are “different”. Married women typically don’t socialize with single women as they are considered a threat to their safe married sanctity; single women are thought of as atypical and weird because their focus isn’t on marriage and children – I should know, I’ve never married, nor had children – I’ve had several long-term relationships but the whole white picket fence thing was not for me. And I’ve been treated with suspicion and diffidence by a lot of married women as a result, even to the point where long-time friends dropped me as a friend as soon as the ring was on their finger.
Many women also have a tough time engaging with very successful women – they feel threatened by another woman’s intelligence, drive and knowledge – so they band together in their little cliques and support each other only to the degree that they are all alike. I think this is the type of woman who voted for Trump – smug in their cocoons, believing that Trump will actually make their lives better.
Good luck with that ladies, maybe you should have dropped your prejudices and listened to the smarter ones before you made such a fateful decision.
@Jaded-this is so true. While I’m married, I don’t have kids and I feel like it’s been isolating. Women seem to have a harder time dealing with women who are different from them than men do.
I hate to agree with her, but I do. She is exactly on point. In my experience, the worst people I have ever had to deal with in a work situation, has been other women. White and black. Heck, even outside of work, going back to grade school. It is sad and we will never get anywhere until we come together to fight sexism and misogynistic behavior.
I am a white woman who voted for Hillary, but I have 2 female friends who voted for Trump. I am beyond disgusted with them. Especially, since one is a sexual victim. We are all educated women.
This is probably the most I’ve liked her in a long time. I disagree that women were the deciding factor. Women are people and people can be greedy fcks. The women voting for Trump were voting for whiteness. They were voting to protect their second hand privilege. And that’s pathetic. But knowledge either through education or through a personal understanding of what life is like on the other side of privilege offsets the women are jealous of other women argument and created some real solidarity between women this election. You came so close, America. Its gonna be a hard 4 years but we are rooting for you.
These are surprisingly coherent comments coming from her. The Trump and election comments ring true.
But do I believe that she never thinks about her age? Hahaha! Shucks, no.
Anybody watch VICE news? I was watching the episode on why people voted for Trump. They had a millennial on who did not vote. She said something like this: “Maybe we need a crazy man as president. Maybe the system needs to crash and burn before it can be fixed.”
I started thinking maybe there is a different reason why Hillary did not when other than women not supporting women and racism. I’m not talking about the people who voted, I’m referring to those who DID NOT show up to vote. Hillary really is an insider. Wall street has lobbied the crap out of the Clintons.
What if the loss of this election was more about NAFTA, Wall Street, lobbyist money and the inequality of the criminal justice system? Donald Trump did say some interesting things about overturning NAFTA and imposing fees on China for undervaluing the dollar. Maybe the next time a democrat runs, they need to pay much more attention to these things and not accept corporate money. Perhaps they will then get the working class back?
Trump is unacceptable as a leader regardless of his positions. Knowing that America gave this pussygrabbing conman bigot egomaniac and bully the keys to the White House makes me sick and his supporters should be ashamed. He should be in jail for colluding with Russia to help him win the election. His conflicts of interest should also be investigated and he should reveal his taxes. I am also concerned about his health. He needs to release a proper health assessment, as he seems to be unstable. God help America. There is no amount of NAFTA talk that is going to make this situation normal or just.
Part of the answer I think is, professional relate to Hillary as a peer, and they are a minority among American women of all races. IMO this is more about class.
This is one of the ugliest threads I’ve seen here. The internalized misogyny is terrifying. Women who don’t trust other women are their own fucking self-fulfilling prophecies–no wonder they don’t work well or get along with that demographic. They’re off-putting and totally unaware. They’re like Nice Guys who cry about not being able to get a date. I just can’t. For the sake of humanity, please stop.
*Off to go hang out with my amazing female colleagues, my supportive fellow female artists, and my wonderful female friends. On my high horse. JCF people.*
This is not an ugly thread, imo, rather this is a self-reflective thread that dares to look deeply into issues that affect society as a whole. Being reflective is not being insulting. Not all little girls feel welcome in the cliques that start as early as elementary school. As we grow most eventually find where we fit in and I’m happy that you are content with your groups but no need to shame others.
Godwina – you’re looking at this from a completely personal perspective. What you’re characterizing as ugliness and misogyny happens ALL THE TIME. That’s life. The planet is full of people who don’t behave at par with your standards and this thread is merely giving concrete examples of it. I’m happy you’ve never experienced it and that you have a wonderful group of friends. So do I, but that doesn’t mean others with a completely different set of rules don’t exist, nor that we for one instance buy into their close-mindedness, we’re merely identifying and relating to Madonna’s explanation.
Did this imbecile just say, “Moral compass” in the same sentence with Hillary Clinton?
OMG, ya dumba$$. I’m rolling on the floor, laughing *tears* Oh, lord, help me *crying in laughter*
…and of course Madonna has such a great moral compass herself.
The fact that there are people in this country whose feelings of moral superiority cause them to lump Madonna’s clothing choices and sex life in the same category as rapists and Neo-Nazis and think Donald Trump is more moral than Hillary is part of the reason why we’d even get a president like him in the first place.
Madonna hates herself, look what she’s done to her face! Living in fear is no way to live. And voting for a woman just because she’s a woman is lame. Somebody needs to do their homework. Don’t be afraid of what you mind find. I dare you to go to youtube and watch anything that’s on there about Clinton.
Nobody said a thing about voting for Hillary because she’s a woman. Rather, the conversation was about NOT voting for her because she’s a woman. There’s a difference.
And YouTube?? Of all the sources to steer people to…wow. Herein lies part of the problem with the electorate, at least.
“They took their hands off the wheel and then the car crashed.”
That’s actually a very good description of the consequences of not voting in this election.