The February issue of Elle is devoted to the cast of HBO’s Big Little Lies, the miniseries based on Liane Moriarty’s bestselling book. Reese Witherspoon produced the series and she stars as well. The cast also includes Zoe Kravitz, Shailene Woodley and Nicole Kidman, all of whom got separate Elle covers. You can read the full Elle package here, and the magazine will be on stands on January 17th. Most of the interview excerpts are pretty boring – Zoe talks about how she’s been feeling more “awake” since the election. Reese talks about pushing the boundaries of beauty. Nicole talks about her “raw” sex scenes in the series. But Shailene’s excerpts were… noteworthy. We must discuss them.
Shailene on the political climate in Hollywood:
“It’s hard to talk about politics in a Hollywood world. I learned that really quickly. But after the California primaries, when Bernie Sanders lost—and I’m not saying he should have won—I knew that Trump was going to win. Because I’d been on the ground for months, and we would be in small cities in America and big cities in America, and Bernie would get tens of thousands of people at his rallies. And then Trump would come and he’d get the same numbers. But Hillary would only have a few hundred people at her fundraisers. It doesn’t matter how much more you have in your bank; if 50,000 people show up to your opponents’ rallies and you only have a few hundred people, it says a lot about what the people of America are ready to do. I grieved all of this months ago, whereas most people are grieving it now.On the importance of knowing self-worth:
When it comes to sexuality, sensuality, self-representation, self-nurturance—America fails in those departments. Women like Nicole [Kidman] trailblaze these paths of self-love and self-recognition. Not from a pretentious place or a greedy place, but from a place of knowing that in order to help those around you, and in order to even be a good actress and a good mother at the same time, you have to know your worth.
To be young and to know everything, right? I do sort of like Shailene and I’m glad that young women (teens and tweens) have someone like Shailene to look up to. She’s politically minded, she tries to talk about stuff that deeper than diets and fashion, and she actually finds some good points here and there. But I don’t find her political analysis all that noteworthy. You know who else used to talk about the size of his crowds? Mitt Romney. And while Donald Trump truly did get huge crowds – crowds of rabid, violent, ignorant people who would threaten and assault people of color and harass journalists – somehow, Hillary Clinton still got three million more votes than Baby Fists. I don’t care for Shailene positioning herself as some kind of political savant, but… whatever. I guess she was right.
Photos courtesy of Alexi Lubomirski for ELLE.
Oh shut the f**k up already.
Seriously. She needs to take a few hundred seats.
She was right and probably didn’t state it that well but on the ground their was a zeal for trump and sanders that was lacking for Hillary. I called a trump win too primarily because of this – because of the ground support, signs… it felt and looked different than anything else I have experienced and not in a good way. I was praying that I was wrong but I completely understand what she is trying to say.
As for Shailene – she impressed the hell out of me when she was out in below zero weather protesting the pipeline. She is active, committed and intelligent. I hope she continues.
Why should she shut up? She was right. Anybody who watched the elections outside of their little bubble could see what was happening and it did.
Yeah, the shut up comment rubbed me the wrong way as well. Why should she be silenced? It was basically a foregone conclusion that Hillary’s campaign did not have the energy or spark of either Trump or Sanders. Hillary won the popular vote but there was a strong minority of Liberals who called she would not win the election.
This tends to be the attitude of a lot of HRC supporters since the election, and it’s the wrong attitude to take. Stop blaming everyone under the sun, but especially progressives, for Clinton’s loss rather than the candidate herself. Shailene is probably one of the most woke white celebrities in Hollywood right now. She is active in issues that affect people of color and the poor, and she is a true progressive who doesn’t just show up to fancy galas and give thousands of dollars to candidates like the majority of Hollywood. If anything, I want Shailene to keep talking. In the last year or two, she’s really shown her colors as a passionate and knowledgeable progressive who understands more about how both conservatism and neoliberalism have been extremely harmful to the world than most celebrities and citizens in general.
@kibbles – I agree that she was really in it during the election cycle and wasn’t just a celebrity posing as a pretty face but HELLO, this woman is the same person who defined feminism as “raise women to power, take the men away from the power..” in reference to why she disagreed with it. She then used the token “sisterhood is better” answer when asked what she believes in. So while she may be pretend-woke on a Bernie or Bust scale, this little lady is not someone who I want speaking for me – a woman of color who is woke as FK.
kennedy, she’s not speaking for you. She’s speaking for herself and she was passionate about DAPL. She is entitled to have an opinion on the election as do you. Also, there are many problems with third wave feminism, in particular white feminism. Even though I consider myself a feminist, I respect someone who is actually on the ground working to improve the lives of others over celebrities who practice the type of feminism that actually degrade women, such as Kim Kardashian and a bevy of other celebrities who think taking off their clothes for millions of dollars equates to feminism and women’s liberation.
yeah she’s an idiot
Just because she is young and annoying doesn’t mean she is dumb. And she is right in that most people had no idea what was happening in the small town USA.
I agree with you. All the people saying shut up come across as defensive and bitter. Say what you will about this chick-she stands up for more than most people(especially those on a gossip site-myself included) and I might not like her, but i respect that aspect.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. When a young celeb is deemed too self-centered there are always cries of “Go to school. Learn something. Help others.”. When a young celeb is into politics or causes there are still cries of “Shut up. who does she think she is? Celebrities need to stop talking about politics”.
Do I think she’s kind of out there? Yes. Absolutely. There’s been some hilarious Shailene headlines over the years.
Do I think she genuinely cares about the causes she talks about? Sure do.
Real America is not a small, mostly white town in Iowa or Nebraska. Statistically, it just isn’t. And all this blathering about how “coastal Elites” don’t “get” “Real America”? Give me a freaking break. First, the coasts are far more populated, per capita, than the midwest, so who’s to say that “Real America” isn’t where most Americans live? Second, the vast majority of people who now reside in New York or L.A., our nation’s two largest cities, CAME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE, often the rural, midwest states. And a good many of them left those places to flee the small-mindedness they grew up with there.
I’m so sick of hearing about how the most-educated and well-traveled of our citizens — both of which major urban dwellers are more likely to be — are the ones that are “out of touch.” Those that believe that America was “great” in the racially segregated 1950s where woman could be abused by husbands at will, minorities could be murdered without consequence, education was something to be scorned and the rest of the world was in a post-World War 2 depression of staggering depth leaving the U.S. to prosper at record (some in Europe would say criminal) rates … THOSE are the people that are out of touch, because those unenlightened times aren’t EVER coming back. We’ve moved too far, and learned too much, ideologically, technologically and globally for it to ever return.
Oh, yeah, and Shailene’s big revelation that rowdy rallies = victory has one teensy, tiny problem — as Kaiser pointed out — Trump LOST THE POPULAR VOTE. Bigly. So, yeah, ranting crowds chanting “Lock Her Up” aren’t why he won (though the continual narcissism hit may be why he kept running); something more like racism, sexism and xenophobia combined with ignorance and credulousness of false narratives (Hilary is a “crook”, etc.), plus voter suppression and the antiquated electoral college, which prioritizes the votes of those self-same poorly educated bigots, is why Trump, BARELY, won.
Nobody, including Trump (no matter what he says now) and the rest of the Republicans, thought he was going to win. That’s right: no one in power believed that the American people were as stupid and racist and sexist as they actually are so … Congratulations? What we “misunderstood” was just how awful our electorate is.
For the record: I currently live in the midwest, in a VERY Red State, and grew up in another one, but I’ve also lived in larger cities on both coasts. I voted for Bernie in the primaries and Hilary in the general. Democrats exist everywhere! Yes, MOST of my neighbors are gun-owning Republicans, but there are also plenty of others who have expressed their complete and utter dismay at what is going in our nation; just like I have. You can paint a map red, but that doesn’t mean that every person in the state thinks, or voted, the same.
As for Bernie, I tend to think that the fact that Bernie is a “socialist,” a word that really terrifies a lot of people (for not great reasons), not to mention Jewish, would have brought out the same, if not more, of Trump’s hate-mongering “base.” If trade and protectionism were truly the big Rust Belt issues, then, yeah, maybe Bernie might have done it, which is an interesting idea. But my gut says “trade” is just what the Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin voters say, so they don’t have to admit they’re racists, homophobes, Islamaphobes and sexists; Something that would have only been made MORE clear had Bernie been the nominee. Now, not that it matters, but I do think that in the same race, even with all the other stuff, Joe Biden would have kicked Trump’s ass.
Well said, S!!!!!
S, I’m too busy giving you a looooonnnnggg standing ovation to comment further. My hands are getting red!
I love you.
Gah! Marry me?
In my recent adventures into Trumpland, I found that the term “Bernie Dweeb” carries the same stigma as “Hillary F*ck” (yes that is a commonly-used term lol) and just solidifies my opinion that MANY Trump-supporters were as terrified of Bernie as they were of HRC.
I DO, however, think that Bernie could have made gains with non-voters and Millennials that Hillary could not. Still not convinced that would have made enough of a difference to solidify a win for Bernie though.
Everyone can take a seat. You said it all. I was going to propose but that darn @Kitten beat me to it! Run for local office?!
(Blushing) Aww, thanks all.
Co-sign, a proud coastal liberal “elite”
Awesome points!
Preach it, S! Real America is all of us collectively. Not some Norman Rockwell painting with no people of color or gays.
And, I think this is where the Russians did their dirty deeds. They leaked the emails of Hillary against Bernie (the DNC setting Hillary up for the win) and the Bernie supporters either didn’t vote at all or they went to a third party candidate. Only 80,000 votes made trumpster the winner…
Preach it, S!
While I agree there should always be a dialogue and that retreating into our respective echo chambers doesn’t really accomplish much, but I’m absolutely fed up hearing that I need to “understand Trump voters” because they have made absolutely no effort to understand anyone else. F-ck em. I’m not going to make the next four years easy for them just because their Cheeto-in-Chief won the electoral college.
I also love you. You basically are in my head! I have been saying the same thing about this real Americans, small town USA nonsense!
I think Shailene was just speaking from her own experience, which is fine. I kind of had a sense of dread about Trump because of his weird rallies. Speaking of, you know how trolls will say stuff like “protesters need to get to get a job” or make jokes about how to get BLM protesters to scatter is to hand out job applications? Well, what were all those people at his rallies doing? Taking time off to go to a Trump rally?? Being retired? Oh the hypocrisy.
S is my new hero!
ETA @OriginalMia, even the image of Norman Rockwell they would have us believe is inaccurate. Rockwell never lived in middle America. New York, California, Vermont and Massachusetts were his homes. He did some work for movies while in CA. Rosie the Riveter was a departure from how women were portrayed up before that time and his paintings in the 60s focused on Civil Rights and are quite powerful. Not the folksy, small town guy they would like to pretend he represents.
I want to copy and paste this,make a tee shirt out of it and wear it for the next four years. Wow. Standing on my desk for you right now.
This This This THIS THIS THIS THIS!
Bravo!
Thanks, from an ultra red state ultra liberal.
Exactly, Apples. If the Democratic party had spent half as much time “on the ground in rural America” as Shailene, they would have had either a different nominee or a different campaign strategy. All Trump voters aren’t violent racists. They simply aren’t. Just like Bernie supporters are all Bernie Bros looking for a free college education. Hillary was never going to lose California and she won by enough to give her this nearly 3 million vote lead. The mistake so many in Hollywood and elsewhere make is that California (and Washington, DC and northern Virginia) aren’t fully representative of America anymore than South Carolina or Indiana or Iowa are. To dismiss entire swaths of the country as racist bumpkins is a losing proposition, as Hillary found out.
Agree MorningCoffee.
Shut. Up. Shailene.
Bernie would not have fared better than HRC. Stop perpetuating this nonsense! The Dems lost because folks were too stupid to see Trump’s idiocy. Not because of their candidate.
+10000
Disagree. Bernie had the authenticity, progressive platform, popular support and dynamic energy to win. His populist message resonated with Democrats and Republicans alike. I knocked doors for him in NH last fall/winter, leading up to that important first primary, and spoke to many Republicans who said they would eagerly support Sanders over Trump in the general, provided he got the nomination. The DNC turned a blind eye to what was happening, promoted only their agenda, smugly thought they had Hillary in the bag, and blew it for all us (see hacked emails). Of course the corporate owned, ratings-driven media colluded. Trump received multi-millions in “free” media coverage from Day One, while Bernie’s campaign was virtually ignored in the news until April or May, too late in the election season to get the win.
Right.
…in New Hampshire though. This is the state that has “Live Free or Die” on their license plates. I think it’s a huge mistake to say that the political climate in NH is interchangeable with say, the political climate in Oklahoma or Nebraska.
NH is a New England state (a traditionally Democratic area) that has gotten progressively more blue over the past ten years.
Clinton won New Hampshire.
And Bernie’s campaign was covered as much if not more than Hillary’s was here in MA from what I saw.
“Bernie had the authenticity, progressive platform, popular support and dynamic energy to win”
This delusion that EVERYONE loved Bernie and thought he was authentic exists only in the fevered minds of Bernie supporter. If that were true he would have won the primaries but he didn’t.
As a Black woman and a Democrat, I never bought into the Bernie myth. He wasn’t authentic. He was a non-Democrat using our party to get elected. As with Trump, you could never pin him on anything. All he had were vague promises. He had no dependable friends in congress to get anything passed if elected.
His promises were fiscally unsound. I’m sorry but most of his supporters *were* White, which I don’t have a problem with if you want to run as an Independent but the Democratic Party is a diverse party composed of both White and Non-White Americans.
Also like Trump, I was suspicious that he never let us see his tax returns. He and his voters were also responsible for spreading lies about “corrupt Hillary”.
When he lost the primaries, a good percentage of his young White male voters voted for Trump and continued to bash Hillary again for being corrupt. Yeah Hillary is more corrupt than Trump in the fevered minds of SOME Bernie voters.
Bernie was the man! The Dem party elite ignoring him, doing their best to bury him at every turn, is how you wound up with Trump. People who say ‘no’ to that and point to the popular vote are sadly misguided. Both candidate’s strategies were aimed at winning the electoral vote, and both would have campaigned far differently had their goal been to win the popular vote. It’s a meaningless gauge of what went on in the election. I’m okay with Shailene. I like her sense of passionate commitment. You don’t find that in many young people today. She played a nice part in protesting the Dakota pipeline. I respect her.
Is this the same man who earnestly told a woman of colour at a post-election event that she needed to drop the “identity politics” or the left would remain out of power? Why thank you, white man, for establishing that all that matters is class when challenging injustice.
Shailene Woodley is a good kid, but she says some incredibly silly things at times.
Yea, I watched his town hall this week on CNN and I really didn’t get much from him…same during the campaign. Mind you, I would have supported any democrat against DUMP. I guess this 46 yr old woman didn’t feel the Bern…
I didn’t either.. also in my 40s. I still don’t, and I find his message very confusing. On the one hand, he argues “no more identity politics” but on the other, he argues, “we need to reconnect with the white working class voter.” How is that not identity politics? My understanding too is that if he did when the primary there is some really sketchy financials shared between him and his wife that he would have had to be more accountable for in public. Basically Jane Sanders ran Burlington College into the ground and made broken promises using the fact that her husband is a senator as leverage. Also, he argues against taking big money from Wall Street but word is he had his own (hush hush) Wall Street fundraisers.
He means issues around race and feminism, I suspect. That’s his idea of identity. Default being white and male. White men are affected by class issues, so that isn’t identity politics.
It’s something I heard a lot of at university – socialist men who sneered at feminism with real vitriol. Race, they avoided mentioning at all as they were uncomfortable about being considered racist. Which spoke volumes on their views.
I agree with you totally. Hillary is renowned as kind of a crappy campaigner – but an amazing worker, politician, person, etc.
One of Bernie’s main concerns is ending the grotesque levels of income inequality in this country. He wants to change the tax laws so that the wealthiest people start paying their fair share of taxes, compared to not paying at all, which is what all those loopholes allow. (See Trump.) Bernie did release his tax returns: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/bernie-sanders-tax-return-222041
Thank you, CrazyDaisy. By blatantly favoring Hill, the Democrats received a nasty shock. Let’s hope they learn from it.
She’s not really wrong. Everyone is so wounded by Trump’s win and the issues with Russia(and rightfully so) that they refuse to acknowledge the issues of the Clinton campaign. It was poorly run and often tone deaf. It does not negate the issues of fake news to analyze the issues within her campaign. I agree with the critiques Obama and Sanders had about it. It seemed pretty clear that she had a good chance to lose by the end of Summer.
Exactly – regardless of the fact that Clinton is the smarter, better candidate than Trump by a mile, she is still one of the most disliked politicians in American history – its just a fact. While she did win the popular vote, there are still millions who didnt even vote just because they didnt want to vote for her.
Lastly I think we all underestimated how Trump appealed to a large group of Americans and assumed his ridiculousness would be enough motivation for people to vote Clinton. But just enough people werent inspired by Clinton enough for her to lose the election.
There a lot of other factors at play but we have to accept that she was not a perfect candidate and the campaign made some mistakes.
Hillary is only “disliked” when she runs for something. She had an 85% approval rating at one point and she is often on the most admired women in the world list.
Her approval rating has never been that high…not sure where youre getting your info from but according to Pew the highest its ever been was 66% when she was secretary of state in 2009 (not a horrible stat) but it has steadily gone down in the years after that up until May 2015 when it was 49%, a month after she officially announced her run for the 2016 election.
http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-approval-timeline/
Mousyb, You’re right polls can’t be trusted … this election sure proved that. Nonetheless, I thought prior to her committing to run, numbers were extraordinarily high. Regardless, she is 100% in my books.
As for Bernie, I believe if he had run against Trump he would have failed bigly. Too socialist and too much fodder for Trump’s insults. Before you know it people would be seeing Bernie as an out of touch crazy old man who wanted to give freebies to everyone.
I was a big Bernie supporter, but then whole heartedly switched to Hillary after she won the nomination. Most of the people I know who voted for Trump never took Bernie seriously. There was a lot of mocking for my supporting him. That was also when they all scorned Trump and never thought he’d get the nomination. I don’t personally know anyone who voted for Trump who *liked* Trump. They just all hated Hillary.
I won’t pretend I thought Trump would win. I still can’t believe he won. But I live in a swing state that went for Trump. In the city, I saw lots of Hilary signs. In the suburbs (where I am) the signs were mixed. And when we’d drive a few hours away to go to the mountains (which we did frequently last summer) it was all Trump signs.
Over Christmas break, we spent a few days in one of the mountain towns that had been covered with trump signs. All the political posters are down, but there are still a few “trump nation” flags at the top of flag poles.
@allie
+1001
@robyn
Im currently included in a class action suit from the 20o8 election for robot calls that promised ppl cruises for their approval of one of the candidates. This person didnt win, and if i approved the other person no cruise. How accurate are the polls really?
I don’t think she’s a political savant but she is correct. She is saying exactly what HRC’s campaign offices in those areas said (to deaf ears). That they were losing the ground game for months.
Yes! All I can think when I look at the Orange Nightmare spewing hate these days is: “And we could have had Bernie Sanders!”
HRC’s campaign reminded me of an elementary PTA run amok. Between Hillary, Debbie Wasserman Schulz, Jennifer Palmieri, Karen Finney, Madeline Albright, Lena Dunham, etc., etc., acting as if the woman’s vote was the one thing that would put them over the top. What a horrible miscalculation, and all for the Clinton’s hubris!
And yet she won the popular vote. Still, a better campaign would have created a far bigger buffer to tolerate the Trump wins in those key counties in those key states. Let’s also remember why she was unpopular: 30 years of Republican propaganda, at least 5 years of Russian propaganda too. The Russians didn’t hack the voting machines – they did something more effective, they hacked the minds of voters.
Same here Sandy… we could have had Bernie but got stuck with trump instead! I won’t go into my personal opinions on this because I’m not in the mood to go back and forth but she’s not wrong. There were reports before Hillary became the official nominee that her poll/approval numbers (I don’t remember specifically, it was a while ago) never go up and she was polling lower than Trump while Bernie was polling higher, that alone worried me.
lying Trumptard
But Hillary won California…
I see Hillary clinton supporters are still denying any responsibility for letting the orange clown win
I don’t believe she was Hilary supporter. I thought she voted for Jil Stein
I mean everyone in this comment section bashing Shailene and dismissing her for just being “young and Naive” or telling her to “Shut. Up”. Clinton supporters and the DNC pushed a candidate that was totally uninspiring, status quo and had basically done nothing but made herself wealthy over the last 30 years. There was a reason why she lost to obama in 2008.
(and before I get the typical commenters yelling at me, I actually voted for hillary)
@Jess
*slow clap
We will be in the same position four years from now if we dont learn from the past. I too voted for Clinton despite not agreeing with many of her policies and positions (or non-positions) on various issues. But I believed it was my duty to do all I can to not let Cheeto Mussolini become president. Yet here we are.
Funny how people call Shaliene the out of touch/naiive one in all this….
She didn’t beat a total buffoon. That’s how good of a candidate she was.
She couldn’t beat and didn’t beat a total buffoon. That’s how good of a candidate she was.
Which is exactly why we lost the election. It boggles my mind how people STILL don’t see why we aren’t where we should be.
Much like Bernie supporters still deny their responsibility in incessantly pushing forth the narrative that HRC and Trump were both “equally-bad” and spending more time slamming Hillary than Trump. I lost a shit-ton of respect for some Bernie supporters when I saw them doing the GOP’s dirty work for them.
BTW, I voted for Bernie in the primary and I still watch all his Town Halls and follow him obsessively because I fucking love the guy, but I also knew that HRC was FAR superior to Trump in every way shape and form and would have NEVER said otherwise, even after mourning Bernie’s loss in the primary.
Yeah this. Let’s not try to pin this all on one groups shoulders and maybe try to figure out how to win in 2020 and the midterm elections. I’m not going to pretend that Bernie or Hillary were perfect and didn’t have faults. However, we are now left with the dumpster fire that is Donald Trump.
I don’t disagree that there were faction of bernie supporters who thought she was “just as bad as trump”. However, you cannot deny there were some Hillary Clinton supporters who absolutely did their best to smear Bernie as some sort of closet racist/sexist who only cared about white people which is absolutely absurd. Let’s not act like one side was completely innocent.
HRC had plenty of issues that needed to be addressed and she was a horrible candidate that was pushed on us from the start of the primaries. Was she as “bad” as Trump? no. But she was definitely a flawed candidate and her supporters did not help.
@JEss LOL. His supporters were f*cking vile. Lmao.
Don’t you remember “Bern the witch?”. Please goddang it OWN that they did that. Stop gaslighting us and excusing their behavior. OWN IT. Criticize them for it. FIX IT.
Also remember him not releasing his tax returns except for one years. Yeah congrats he turned up for some civil rights movements in the 60s and THEN you jumped to what he did now for his campaign(/post campaign)…..really? what did he do for POC in between then? ONLY NOW does he seem to really care about the plight of POC when he realized he needs to make sure he gets their votes.
Man is mediocrity defined and you refused to ever critique him further. I’ll wait here for you to really come at Sanders because I have not seen a Sanders supporter yet who will not put him on a pedestal and ACTUALLY criticize his behavior and policies. I’ve had a lot of sexist white men (I mean raging sexists honey) tell me I need to get some life experience and accept Sanders as the right guy before they’ll engage in a discussion with me…so open minded you lot are aren’t you? So yeah I’ll stick with my white feminist. Better a white feminist, then a white man who’s supporters literally tell you you’re too stupid to understand politics when they have NO clue how the electoral college works and voted Johnson in protest. Trust me. I met a lot of sh-tty bernie sanders supporters, some of them unfortunately still my friends. They are liberal bros. They didn’t get it, much like bernie.
Here’s Bernie on black people. “When you’re white, you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto,” Sanders said. “You don’t know what it’s like to be poor.”
Hmmmm fascinating this man’s complete and utter flip flop to now where he’s bending over for that white working class vote. I guess white people DO know what it’s like to be poor Bernie. flip flopping pos.
Nicole Kidman a trailblazer?
Also she reminds me of a young Monica Belluci without the “je ne sais quoi”
Ugh her and Susan S were annoying during the campaign.
What she said makes no sense, because if she’s going by crowd size, then Sanders should have beaten HRC. But, whatever. I was more struck by her claim that Nicole Kidman, of all people, “blazed a path of self love” when Kidman is now almost unrecognizable from the girl who was in Dead Calm.
Actually, crowd size at Sanders events do matter. You have to remember that he attracted more than members of the democratic party who are eligible voters for the democratic primary.
People who attended his rally would have voted for him in a general election. Seriously, there were long lines to get into his rally and if people could be bothered to show up and wait in line to hear him speak, I think there’s a good chance that they would bother to show up at the voting booth.
I’m 64 and have voted Democratic my entire life, and I have been to exactly one rally…1992 Clinton/Gore in Chicago. I never had the time; I was always working or I had children. Rallies are not easy for the disabled or elderly who can’t stand or wait in line for long periods of time. Also, Walter Mondale had enormous rallies in 1984 right before he got steamrolled by Reagan. In 2012 Peggy Noonan wrote an article called “Monday Morning” about how Romney was going to win because he had more lawn signs and bigger crowds than Obama.
Clearly you are ignoring the way the DNC made sure Bernie didn’t get the nomination despite his numbers. That’s why DWS had to resign (or was fired) when her role in that debacle was revealed.
You can also blame the DNC, or whoever is running the dems (Pelosi?) for scaring away the other potential candidates. Right from the beginning we only had clinton or sanders to choose from. That’s really slim pickings considering the repubs had a dozen people who ran for the top job.
Someone over there decided we should get a lady at the top office (not a bad idea but wrong candidate) and most likely discouraged any potential candidates to run.
When you only have 2 to choose from and one is “unelectable” in the eyes of the people, you’re going to lose.
Disclosure: I voted for HRC but I’m not going to lay the entire blame on Orangino. The Dems need to take a long hard look at themselves too.
Hollybolly : yep.
It’s seeping out into the MSM how the DNC *scared other potential candidates from standing against Hilary. Bernie rebelled and stood anyway, knowing he had no chance, and was probably as surprised as the DNC at the progress he made.
*made clear to any other people wanting to stand that they would only support Hilary.
Then the DNC made extra sure that he wouldn’t get the nomination.
LAK, Bernie lost because he didn’t appeal to the base of the Democratic Party, not because the DNC scared off other candidates. Bernie wants to put aside racial issues for economic issues and I’m sorry but we’ve come entirely too far to allow our issues to be pushed aside by progressives. Not going to happen and it’s why even now…the majority of POCs in the Democratic Party want Bernie & his followers to stfu and move the F on to their own party.
@The Original Mia
Your attempt to paint Bernie as some someone who “put aside racial issues” is pretty disgusting and blatantly dishonest. This is the same man who was the a member of the Congress of Racial Equality and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee in Chicago and was arrested at several civil rights demonstrations. This is the same man who gave BLM protestors his microphone to speak after they interrupted his rally. Hillary Clinton on the other hand will literally force you out of the room if you are a BLM protester and condescendingly tell everyone “OK, back to the issues, the issues I think are important …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqLfvQfuvsA
This is also the same man who rallied for Native Americans and was extremely VOCAL against the Dakota access pipe line. But please do tell me Mia, wtf has Hillary done for Natives or any other POC after the election? I guess she only needs POC when she can get something from us but when we need her, she is silent. Literally the only issue she cared to address after the election was about fake news. If that is the type of corporatist democrat you want to defend, go right ahead.
& do not pretend to speak for all POC in the democratic party honey. While you bash progressives, WE are the ones who are leading the way to change while you cling on to white feminists like Hillary.
LAK and Jess, I always love your commentary, I’ll say it time and time again!!
Bernie Sanders didn’t get the nomination, because he didn’t get the most votes. Polling numbers had nothing to do with it and there’s no evidence (ZERO EVIDENCE) that anybody can point to that suggests the DNC took any action to harm Sanders’ campaign and help Clinton’s campaign.
On the flip side- in December 2015, Bernie Sanders’ campaign staffers took advantage of a software glitch and hacked into the CLINTON database and stole proprietary donor information. Repeat- the Sanders campaign stole proprietary information from the Clinton campaign.
The hacked emails from the DNC that were leaked all came from late April, early May. The race was already over at that point. It was mathematically impossible for Sanders to win the nomination by then. The conversations in the hacked DNC emails (while unprofessional) can be chalked up to individual members of the DNC being fed up with the Sanders campaign for its refusal to drop out (despite getting their butt kicked), inciting voters with allegations of “rigged” elections (despite the Sanders campaign’s reliance on caucuses), and the Sanders campaign staffers hack of Clinton data.
Bernie Sanders lost the Democratic Primary in early March on Super Tuesday when Hillary kicked his butt in every Southern state, including Virginia and then routed him in his own backyard (Massachusetts). From that day on, the primary was over. Bernie made his own bed when he ignored Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee, Virginia, Louisiana, etc.
All the DNC emails were hacked and leaked, and the only thing anybody could find in ALL THOSE EMAILS was several exchanges in late April/early May of unprofessional barbs. None of which could be substantiated with actual evidence that the DNC took any actions whatsoever against Sanders.
So please – just stop.
LAK, I’ve always enjoyed your commentary on the Royals, and it doesn’t surprise me that you recognize the corruption of the DNC and Debbie Wasserman Schultz. You seem to be well read and intelligent, and ironically, you aren’t even American, right? You appear to be more aware of what happened during the primaries than most American Democrats.
Same here Minx. When she started rapping about Nicole Kidman’s self-love, my head and eyebrow cocked to the side and up, respectively. Whatchyoutalkinaboutshaliene? Woman, we’ve all seen the transformation.
But then again, who am I to judge. Maybe plastic surgery is an expression of self-love to some women. (Look, I’m just trying to savor the next eighth days, before Baby “Joffrey Baratheon” Fists’ ascendancy. Like, I legit now know how those doomsday preachers feel.)
Waaa waaa. This is one reason we’re in the orangApocolypse. Millennials want what when they want it- they are idealist and unrealistic. The generation of participation medals wanted their unique candidate. They didn’t show up to vote “because we told you we only wanted Bernie” or they protest voted against Hillary. Here’s an analogy- shailene and her type want us all to wear perfectly political Tom’s recycled shoes. But these shoes aren’t suitable for all Americans. So shaline and her contingent leave is all barefoot because “perfect is the enemy of the good”.
I don’t think she was positioning herself as a political savant but more just relating her experience while she was out on the road. Her word choice is off but I think I get what she is trying to say.
I intuitively felt the same thing about Dump winning, just look at the way Obama was treated in office and the media or what happened right after the SCOTUS decision on the voting rights act and campaign financing. The stage was being built for his win.
Agreed. I have felt the same way for some time. (You guys might recall my PLEASE GET OUT AND VOTE IM SCARED posts, lol.)
I know the discourse has been educated elite liberals vs uneducated flyover state idiots but I MUST put this in the ether: I work in healthcare, and have been involved with the ACA since it’s inception. While there have definitely been instances of good outcomes as a result of the ACA, on the frontlines in health care the overwhelming response has not been positive. I heard a good metaphor the other day that the ACA was a jenga puzzle and before it could pass, people kept pulling the pieces out until it was gutted and ineffective. While we know who to blame for the gutted ACA we got, not everyone Is aware.
I think the implementation of the ACA and how it played out might be a piece of the “who the hell voted for trump and why” puzzle. I know several non-racist, educated females that voted based on it alone. Not saying I AGREE with them, but I do think it played a factor for some.
And honestly, it makes me sleep a *little* better knowing that some people didn’t vote out of racism and hate but out of dissatisfaction w ACA.
I can’t be too critical of this woman, namely because she’s right. She’s just stating her observations. Which basically are: the millennials didn’t get their way so they don’t care about Hillary losing (except surprise, we ALL lose – who knew? People with common sense & decency)
Calling Nicole a trailblazer though? For what? Life after having a Scientology husband? Yea she’s been great at that. Kudos. Anything else? Nah, don’t see it. She might be a nice woman and be grounded with her religious named kids, her country music husband and her Nashville enclave.
But i don’t see a risk taker.
I think she’d still be married to Tom if he hadn’t left her before that 10yr benchmark.
She’s no Katie Holmes.
How are millennials to blame exactly? This argument is getting REALLY tired and old. You know what people with common sense & decency actually do? They do their research before they jump to conclusions about an entire generation of people. http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/opinions/sutter-millennial-trump/
First of all @Jess
Bernie’s support was comprised of millennials (many others also) but that was his base.
Rather than bashing Shailene, I actually agree with her observations and am saying the same thing.
Hillary didn’t have those passionate and angry kids who went to the wall for Bernie.
Shailene points this out, I agree with her.
Yes i could spend all day on what Hillary did wrong during her campaign. What she could have done more of and better.
But at the end of the day, i take responsibility for myself. Bashing Hillary, and coyly talking about bringing the revolution in the lead up to election day (as many people did, especially millennials) actually suppresses votes among demographics EVEN IF you slink into the polls at the 11th he and begrudgingly cast a vote for Hillary (but only because the orange clown terrifies you.)
The fact is, if those same people had been talking about how terrified they were of the orange clown INSTEAD of bashing Hillary, we wouldn’t be in this predicament.
After the DNC hacking, and the bias towards Hillary was exposed (gee who knew that a Democratic org who had been supported by staunch dem Hillary for 40 yrs, would prefer her over an Independent who changed parties to run) Hillary was mud with certain demos.
That’s how we got here.
Don’t get it twisted.
I know plenty of millennials who voted Trump, sadly.
People calling her stupid but I am sorry she is right And I also thought that the orange cheeto had more chance to win after Bernie Lost.
Sadly, I think she’s right.
I think she is right too. But hard-core HRC fans will never admit that they backed an extremely flawed corporatist candidate over Bernie who would have been a better candidate for the Democrats to run in the current political climate. Until Democrats learn from their mistakes, they will lose again in 2020.
Bernie would’ve never won lmao. Sure all his ideas and policies sounded exciting in the primaries, but by the time the General would’ve rolled around they would’ve been eviscerated. Not to mention for all intents and purposes he was basically a Socialist Jew in the eyes of the right, so Trump and co. would’ve had an easier time manipulating the “silent majority” into voting against themselves for the umpteenth time. POC weren’t really feeling him as well from all I read/saw during the primaries.
Sanders fighting till the end while admirable didn’t help reduce the “Hillary is super unlikeable” narrative being pushed around as well which I think is where people are getting millenials from (Bernie or bust people, young people who went 3rd party when he lost, Harambe voters who saw the whole thing as a joke, etc)
I doubt Bernie would have won, but I do think Clinton’s campaign made a huge mistake in keeping DWS after the DNC fired her. That just gave fire to the possible third party voters who were incensed at her actions. Some of the very left wing reporters were incredibly angry about it and it whipped up their followers. Additionally, some of the media figures who were obviously tight in her campaign going after Bernie hardcore alienated a lot of those voters imo. I think that did a lot more damage than Bernie staying in the race for a while.
*Wikileaks showed nothing scandalous about Clinton imo (the DWS stuff was kind of icky but not illegal or scandalous…RNC also “favors” candidates even if they are not supposed to it and isn’t breaking any laws)…..what it did show was that some journalists were fairly unethical imo. I expected better from those reporters.
*Yes, some of the more left wing reporters who clearly leaned towards Bernie were unfair towards Hillary too….but I honestly saw just as many being over the top towards Bernie despite the narrative that the media only went after Clinton and not Bernie. On the other hand, the more conservative media clearly went way harder on Clinton than anyone else.
Yes, I NEVER got the Wikileaks drama. I mean, Oh my gosh, politicians want to win?!?!? I had no idea! I think I’d be less shocked to find there was gambling in Casablanca.
And, remember: these were hacks MEANT to boost Trump and sink Hilary and the best they could find were some petty swipes at the non-establishment candidate, all of them made by people that were not, and I repeat NOT, actually Hilary Clinton.
Good points all-around.
I also question her VP pick…Kaine? Really??
She could have opted for a young progressive and perhaps increased her base a bit.
She’s right, I just take issue with the way she says things.
“I grieved all of this months ago, whereas most people are grieving it now.”
That has such an air of, “I knew about this band before they were mainstream,” which is off-putting and detracts from her larger, correct points.
Yeah that part was annoying.
Still have a ton of respect for her work on the DAPL pipeline. I always had a sort-of love/hate relationship with her in that some of the stuff she says is eyeroll-inducing yet she still has a good heart. Overall, I like her though.
Exact same.
Sometimes I’m like, “F*ck yeah, Shai!” She keeps it real a lot.
And then sometimes I want to flick her in the forehead, like when she talks about her vagina habits, or is a pretentious d!ck.
And the more I think and read, the more I want to take back my “She’s right” a little. The crowd-sizes thing bothers me, because as many posters have said, Trump lost the popular vote. And it conveniently excludes the reasons of racism, hatred, and ignorance.
It’s amusing how everyone knows after the fact that it was going to happen. Yeah right. Scratching my head on how Nicole Kidman blazed any trails, except the one she ran away from Cruise on. This woman looks like that chick from Glee, Leah whatever, right?
Van Jones, Keith Ellison, and Shaun King were just three of the reporters who were very concerned about Trump winning…while everyone else said Hillary had it in the bag. It doesn’t matter how many flaws Hillary may have, she still should have easily trounced Trump. People were puzzled when the campaign spent so much time in Georgia and Arizona…instead of pouring more time and money into traditional Blue or Blue leaning states. There’s a reason Obama said he went to every fish fry.
However, I do think the FBI and the racism/sexism angle played the biggest part…..and I think this “Bernie, Biden, whoever would have won” is pointless at this point. I also think the people bashing Hillary need to stop. What we need to do is focus on the future.
NICOLE did not run away from tom he dumped her and I bet five $ if he didn’t file for divorce they would still be together.
Div: Yes, the bashing has to stop, and focusing on the future is all we can do. @Winter: I doubt they would still be together, but yes I do remember he left her. I vaguely remember her on Letterman saying she could wear high heels again! I still stand by my comment though, a trailblazer she is not.
Look, I am a far left Democrat who voted and volunteered for Hillary (although I also liked Bernie). I understand that Bernie has some obnoxious fans. However, I don’t think Shailene is completely wrong.
Hillary was a smart, highly capable candidate. I truly believe the “white lash” (combination of racism and sexism) plus Wikileaks/FBI played the largest part in her losing. HOWEVER, the Dems are falling apart and the complete refusal to acknowledge our own problems and mistakes with her campaign terrifies me. If we don’t fix it, I think we will let Trump win another round. There was some fairly large problems with her campaign, and while she should have easily trounced Trump even with those issues it doesn’t erase the problems. While the far left sometimes holds unreasonable standards of purity, the center left can sometimes be just as bad in their own way with their refusal to acknowledge faults, passing the blame on to third party voters, or passing the blame on to Bernie.
Same thing happening with the Labour Party in the UK and in centre left parties all over Europe. We all have to oppose the onward march of neo-fascism but that does indeed involve acknowledging our own mistakes – people aren’t voting for distant technocrats, of left or right. And centre left technocrats just can’t seem to understand that.
The Democratic party is a mess and has been so for many years. It’s why I switched my registration to Independent eons ago.
Did you see the latest with 13 Dems voting against cheaper prescriptions? Cory Booker at the top of the list. Repulsive.
I saw an article comparing NHS drug prices with US drug prices. I almost fainted. Collective negotiations and universal healthcare literally reduces the price by two-thirds on almost everything. I can’t believe Democrats voted against that.
@Kitten
Not surprised, Cory Booker has a history of shady as* activities despite his twitter heartthrob status. I’m surprised that so few people know that the dude is on the board of a Betsy DeVos thing for Charter Schools.
I’m glad that he’s going after Sessions, but I am seriously worried that people are seeing him as the “future” of the DNC. Julián Castro, Sherrod Brown, Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, etc. are all far better….I’m honestly surprised more attention isn’t being paid to Julián (especially as he is friendly with the Clintons).
I’m happy to see so many people calling out Booker for being bought out by the pharma industry. Trust that progressives will make sure he doesn’t win if he decides to run for president in 2020. With that vote he just ruined his chances of ever being the next Barack Obama. It might have worked before, but more liberal folks are woke to the two faced corruption of many Democrats. Make sure that those Democrats who voted against Bernie’s bill get kicked out of office in the next election.
Agreed. we love to unite around a common enemy/idea or at least make a listicle of reasons so and so won/lost etc., but the truth in this election goes deeper and is more complex than a quickie Blurb (or should I say Bernie Blurb). As I mentioned earlier upthread, i work in healthcare and saw the writing on the wall from nurses, medical assistants, etc., that the ACA was a factor for some in their voting thought process.
People, your love for Hillary is not an excuse to ignore and insult others who have different opinions. Hillary’s campaign was all over the place. You can’t win working class with just repeating what Bernie said after you’ve taken money from corporations for years. Shailene speaks the truth.
I didn’t vote for Hilary in 2008, and I didn’t vote for her in 2016 until the primaries. She wasn’t my first choice — I’d have rather seen Biden, as I mentioned above, Corey Booker or Elizabeth Warren — but I will say that I actually grew to like and respect her MORE as she campaigned, so I don’t get the whole, “she ran a lousy campaign” idea.
Yes, she is a career politician. Totally true. And she’s not much of a speaker either, which can definitely be frustrating, but I think she did much better on that front in 2016, than she did in ’08. I watched the debates and wish she’d attacked harder at some points, but I came away thinking she wiped the floor with the Trump and kept her cool doing it; in other words, that she’d probably make a pretty good leader.
She is no more corporate than any other politician, with the SOLE exception of maybe Bernie Sanders. Every Republican, including Trump, has far greater ties to Wall Street, so I don’t get that argument AT ALL. The email server nonsense looked like a blip, because it almost certainly should have been. Was she perfect in it? Not even a little bit, but the idea that she had any kind of criminal intent or culpability — I don’t even think she was actually trying to conceal anything; she was just an older woman who went into the White House when email didn’t exist, so didn’t have anything when she exited, then just wanted the easiest use of technology (one phone, not two) and let others set that up for (the server, by the way, already existed to run the Clinton Foundation, it wasn’t some sinister thing) — just doesn’t pass the logic test. People have literally spent lifetimes researching the Clintons, looking for dirt and, other than that Bill hasn’t always been faithful and is a horndog (his dirt, not hers), and Hilary is ambitious (oh, the horror), they’ve got nothing. And, seriously folks, if it hasn’t been found, it doesn’t exist.
I keep coming back to the idea that the real ding against Hilary is that she isn’t “likable” enough. She doesn’t bullish!t effortlessly enough to succeed in politics. She’s too earnest. In other words, she’s too female, even though few would accuse her of being overly feminine … Which is the other, completely contrary, knock against her. I’m also shamed that this assessment is something you hear as much, if not more often, from other women, then men.
Should say didn’t vote for Hilary in 2016 until AFTER the primaries … Oops!
You are quickly becoming my favorite….
She’s not wrong tho…
I supported Hillary once she became the nom, but it was pretty clear from early on that Bernie was the populist and popular choice on the left. He really stood a chance, in my opinion.
Sadly, the Bernie bro narrative took some of the shine off his campaign. I’ll suggest that that was mostly manufactured by his competitors. I have never met a Bernie bro, but know many smart women of various ages (21 to 86 to be precise) who were all in for Bernie.
Yeah, I’ll keep my comments superficial. I dig Zoe’s cover. She really is a beautiful young woman. Nicole’s isn’t bad either. Her lips don’t look so jacked up here. They managed to almost make her face look like her old face.
Ultimately, it’s up to every person to vote for the candidate that will do the best job. End of story. Hillary lost because idiots refused to do their homework.
So yes, I will yell “shut up!” at ever single person who tries to pin this on Hillary’s campaign or the DNC . You are just absolving the Trump supporters of their idiocy.
People should have known better. It’s on them. Them. Not anyone else.
Crowd size isn’t a good proxy for overall support, but it *is* a good proxy for passion. Bernie and Trump had more passionate voters than Hillary did, I will absolutely agree with that. And the way that may translate into more votes isn’t just that passionate voters are more motivated to show up at the voting booth (this is one of the biggest reasons Hillary lost – people simply did not show up in the numbers she needed in a few key states like Pennsylvania and Michigan). Passionate voters are also more likely to put signs on their lawns, talk to other people about their candidate, to drive OTHER people to the polls, etc.
So yes, passion is important.
But frankly, the more I think about it, the less I feel Bernie would’ve done much better. The “Bernie would’ve done better” argument seems to largely be based on the idea Bernie could have sold a more appealing economic argument to many Trump voters. I’m not sure they are right. First, alot of those Trump supporters claim to want smaller government. (Let’s ignore the fact many of them already benefit from government programs). So the fact he’s a proud Democratic socialist would be a big turn off for many of them. Similarly, they don’t necessarily care that Trump’s cabinet will be full of billionaires. Their idea of “elites” is less about economics and more about culture. They’ll happily support a crude billionaire they feel isn’t talking down to them or telling them they are wrong over Ivy league educated lawyers and activists and “Hollywood types” that tell them they know better about how they should be living their lives. You cannot over-state how important cultural issues are to these folks: Abortion, anti-gay “agenda” (what agenda they are talking about is beyond me but I swear this is how they see it), 2nd amendment rights, etc.
But why did some Trump supporters vote for Obama you ask? People forget that Obama presented himself as a man of faith in 2008 (he went to a sermon at Rick Warren’s church for goodness sake), the man that will bridge the political divide between Democrats and Republicans, etc. I think subconsciously or consciously many of these one time Obama and later Trump voters hoped Obama could bridge the racial divide too. (Interestingly Obama took great pains to not be classified as the “black candidate”. He campaigned as the Great Uniter). I think for alot of folks Obama is personally very appealling but they eschew many of his policies. Bernie espouses Obama’s policies (but times 1000, that is he is more left leaning than the President) but has none of those personally appealling traits. Lastly, we have no clue how the Republicans and Trump would’ve attacked Bernie. He was largely ignored by them while they attacked Hillary. Moreover, Bloomberg was considering entering the race if Bernie had won and that would’ve had some impact as well.
wrong
I think a lot of people are trying to explain how we got here without all the facts. At least, I suspect we don’t have all the facts. I’m not ruling out strategic Russian hacking of actual voting machines meant to get Trump to 270 Electoral College votes. Until and unless there’s a thorough and transparent investigation of that possibility, I won’t rule that out. Call me a conspiracy theorist, I don’t care.
But it’s true, millions of people did legit vote for this nightmare. And Hillary and company didn’t push back enough on all the attempts to make her look evil. And the DNC needed a 50 state strategy and didn’t have one. My state was pretty much ignored despite the fact that we have a Democratic governor who’s fairly popular. And we know they actively worked against Bernie’s momentum.
There’s plenty of blame to go around, I guess. My gut tells me we don’t have the whole story, though.
The DNC did not do anything illegal and “give” the election to HRC. If you remember, most superdelegates and the DNC supported HRC in 2008 too; once Obama started winning more states, they switched to him. The same would have happened if Bernie could beat HRC. He just couldn’t.
Furthermore, Bernie 100% wouldn’t have beaten Trump. Primarily because Bloomberg swore to get in the election if Bernie got the nom. Many democrats who thought Bernie was too extreme and was ineffective in getting things done would gave voted for him. Bernie always had trouble with blacks and Latinos. It’s also impossible to say with Russia helping Trump; they would tried to take Bernie down and would’ve likely succeeded. This simply wasn’t a fair election for HRC and wouldn’t have been for Bernie.
Say it again and again because people have short memories.
I think I’ll vomit on you now. Because your level of smug denial is do gravityless. You can’t hear me tho. Because I’m not a DNC shill. That means you win. Lol.
You’re gonna vomit on me? You realize this is the internet right?
Man, Bernie bros are the worst.
A few nights ago, I think it was PBS or CNN that talked with a black Detroit Dem grassroot leader who said that he didnt even know who HRC area campaign leader was…but when Obama ran both times he knew that person’s name and had his telephone number. So when I heard that…I realized that HRC’s team had blown it. I work on a University campus near DC…Obama came here at least 3 times when he first ran. HRC didn’t come here at all…I sometimes wonder about those rumors of her health. She did go to VA which is Tim Kaine’s home state. But HRC and her campaign were just lazy and tried to go by data…This guy said “DATA DON’T VOTE”
Also to quote another source I read….Red states don’t necessarily vote against their own interest but they will vote against yours.
I like that she tries to be conscious of the world around her. I like that she went to North Dakota and protested about Standing Rock but in this instance all she is doing is Cherry picking facts. If we were a true democracy, Hillary would have won. If the concept of one-person, one-vote, and they are all equal, Hillary would have won. She did won by like almost 3 million votes.
So whatever she was reading on the ground didn’t translate to actual vote totals. I get it. Hillary was a flawed candidate. That logic doesn’t work with me because what Trump wasn’t? Please! We have a system that allowed a demigod to prevail. Hate it or love it Hillary won the Democratic primary. She was the choice. The reality is that a difference of 100,000 votes in states where voters are unfairly given more votes than in others (how is that democratic?) decided the presidential election. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/09/how-clinton-lost-blue-wall-states-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin/93572020/
But I guess the great thing about Monday morning quarterbacking is you can speak with 100% accuracy about what you “knew” was going to happen…
HRC’s people are out of touch. They are dinosaurs in this modern age. Whoever was in charge doesn’t have the “feel” of the electorate. Obama’s campaign was from the ground up, very inclusive and had an enormous appeal to the masses and to the millineals. HRC’s is too sophisticated and too Hollywood like. This is just my humble opinion and I voted for her. I feel like the democrats owed it to her this time since Obama beat her in 2008. Otherwise, if this an open position to all, we would have seen better candidates running for president. Maybe Biden, Booker, Warren, etc. would have been part of the group.
I would certainly agree that Hilary doesn’t inspire. It’s funny you say Hollywood, because while Hilary is certainly polished, she’s the least movie star-like of any Presidential candidate I can recall.
Obama is an amazing orator and inspiring individual. When he won in 2008 I cried. (Not as much as I cried when he said farewell the other night, but that’s a different story.) I felt like this was an America, and an American President, that I could be proud of. My oldest was 1 at the time and I was joyous that he would grow up with this man as our President. (Ask me how I feel about my two-year-old daughter’s future now … 🤢) I felt like Obama was a truly good man, who would do truly great things. And I think, for the most part, he fulfilled that, despite historic pushback and intransigence on the part of the opposition party that I fully and truly believe was in large part due to Obama’s race. (And the unprecedented nature of their unwillingness to do even the simplest governmental tasks back that theory up.)
Donald Trump seems like a repudiation of EVERYTHING Obama represented. My only, slim hope is that this is a blip on America’s growth chart. The last steep drop before we continue the long, treacherous climb to being a more enlightened, better educated and less hate-filled people.
But back to Hilary … When Obama won, I felt joy. If she had won I would have felt … Relief, mainly. Not ecstatic, despite her historic position. But, yes, hopeful about the nation’s future.
So, yeah, I get the idea that she’s uninspiring, unlike Obama, and can even see where Trump might be seen as invigorating by many, if all for reasons I find repugnant.
I was wondering just the other day if it had been Hilary v Jeb!, as many speculated in 2015, who would have won. Talk about a duo of “they’re both bad” candidates — a vote where the “lesser of two evils” phrase could actually have been defensible. The thing is, I would have still voted for Clinton, but I also wouldn’t have been that bent out of shape had Bush won. Both would have been same old, same old.
Gah…. This thread. I can’t believe the ridiculousness.
I’ll say it again: Hillary is not at fault. The Dems are not at fault. Trump’s supporters are at fault. Period. Stop saying otherwise. You are letting idiots get away with idiocy.
HRC’s campaign and the Dems were not out of touch. The ones out of touch are the Trumpsters who delusionally think DT will make America great again.
Quit this nonsense! Every minute we have a conversation about “What Hillary did wrong” we are letting the Trumpsters think they were right to vote for DT. They did wrong. Them. It’s all their doing for failing as responsible voters. Hold THEM accountable. Don’t let them have excuses. DT is inexcusable!
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Though I think introspection is necessary, I tend to agree with you. I think it’s more about the path the Republican party has gone down to get power, transforming from The Party of Lincoln to the Alt-Right, via their “Southern strategy” and dog whistle politics. I honestly don’t think the mainstream RNC wanted Donald Trump, but they sure made him possible with their ever-growing culture wars, religious pandering and out-and-out race baiting that started during the Civil Rights era in the 1960s and culminated with their all-out opposition of Obama’s every move that was so often totally illogical and even antithetic to their stated governing goals, it could only be racially based. Their wink-wink, nudge-nudge, “We are you and they are other” call to the White Evangelical base paved the way for an authoritarian narcissist like Trump to swoop in and strike, trading dog whistles for air horns and laying bare what for so long had been bubbling just beneath the surface of the RNC.
Oh and, I mentioned Jeb! in my comment above … I think that might be Clinton’s real “fatal flaw.” It’s not her, it’s that she’s not change. No more Bushes. No more Clintons. There is very little I can say about Donald Trump that could even sound like a compliment, but I have to admit he is a DIFFERENT candidate. I don’t meant that in a good way, but I know after eight years of Fox News and the rest of ring-wing media demonizing Obama as a Kenyan Socialist Muslim Terrorist determined to destroy America and all we stood for, electing someone who was NOT “more of a the same” became a mantra for a certain type of voter.
That’s the other thing about blaming the RNC … They’ve condoned and even set up these completely fact-free bubble of fear and hate. So even if you’re just an Average Joe who won’t fall for 90% of the Breitbart, Hannity, Limbaugh outrage machine, maybe you’ll fall for the SOME of it that confirms your particular set of biases, and that’s enough to turn you.
It’s like they’ve got outrage for everyone. Hate minorities? The first President of color couldn’t possibly have been born in the U.S. amirite? Are you uneducated and unemployed? It’s not your fault, immigrants are stealing your jobs?! Terrified of terrorism? They’re coming for you, and the other side is trying to help them and take away your right to defend yourself? Oh and, if you carry a gun AT ALL TIMES, you couldn’t possibly be a victim. You’re in control! And on and on and on to ever more obscure and outrageous conspiracy theories.
Reflecting on our problems does not mean we are accepting fault for the KKK Orange Dictator. Trump and his minion of bigoted morons are the ones at fault. Introspection doesn’t mean giving Trump a pass. It means improving ourselves so we can better fight the GOP and improve voter turnout and deal with issues like gerrymandering, holding the mainstream media accountable for going after Hillary so hard for those fucking emails, etc.
The DNC Chair of Hispanic Engagement and Outreach quit in 2015/2016. Daily Kos, among other websites, talked to him and he discussed how he asked for something like $3 million dollars to launch a get out the vote campaign targeted at Latinx millennials in states like Florida. Instead, the DNC gave him 1/10th of the money he asked for during the campaign. I feel it is important to look at issues like this so we can be better next time.
We need to focus on the future, but completely ignoring our missteps is a mistake imo.
Reflecting on “our problems” just gives credence to the GOP narrative that Trump’s supporters were justified. I will NEVER do this. If it was any other candidate, I’d be okay with this conversation, but DT is such a massively unacceptable candidate that I will not accept any line of thinking that puts this on HRC or the Dems. Everyone should have known better than to vote for that orange POS.
Saying “well HRC was a bad candidate” or “the Dems ran a bad campaign” is just giving the GOP fuel to say “well, we were right to go with Trump cause he’s different”.
Stop. Just stop. You are only assuring the GOP will continue to win.
Dems need to step up and defend themselves, not take responsibility for the ignorance that got Trump elected.
This is unpopular to say, but the Dems need to get louder, more insulting. Not less. Call these moron Trump supporters morons. Call them racist. Don’t stop. Attack. Trump is a disgrace. The people who voted for him are bigoted idiots. Or greedy a-holes. Don’t put lipstick on a pig and take it out to dinner.
These Trumpsters should not be coddled. Or labeled “misunderstood”. They need to criticized more and more as Trump makes things worse and worse. Blame them. Yell at them. Ostracize them. Don’t let their “you calling us racist and stupid led us to vote for Trump” argument make you nice to them. They need to be held accountable and shown that they are wrong and need to change. You may think it’s just gonna make them more entrenched against us, but don’t let that deter you. They’re gonna be entrenched anyway. Playing nice isn’t going to get them to change. That’s a fool’s area that they want us to believe so they can shut us down. But loud enough voices against them will drown them out. Make them a disgrace. Villify them. They are ruinous to our country and world.
I think the introspection is good. No name calling or passing blame, but let’s fix the party. Figure out a cohesive platform, win the midterms, get more democratic governors and then on to 2020. Because while we are fighting among each other, Trump, Pence, Ryan, and McConnell and trying to set the country back fifty years or more. I wouldn’t say Hillary is blameless, but the fact that many Trump supporters voted for him despite his awful temperament, him having zero experience, his ridiculous Twitter, and his campaign of rhetoric is alarming. There were many people (and many of the white women who voted for Trump) who said they were voting against Hillary instead of for Trump. Why were people so hung up on those emails, why were people so quick to believe the Clinton body count stories, to twist Benghazi to their agenda? And many of those same people are calling that Trump dossier fake news? Is it truly a man’s world, was it outright misogyny? Did HRC’s campaign miscalculate the states that turned red for Trump? Would changing textbooks and un-whitewashing US for children give them a better understanding of the issues in this country?
I think we have to consider a lot of things for the next few years. While trying to survive the Trumpocalypse at the same time!
I find this rather absurd: when you lose an election- why focusing on the opponent, or his supporters? Wouldn’t this be a moment of self-reflection to identify the many factors that might have contributed to this? How would you go into another election thinking the fault lies completely outside of yourself, whereas I don’t consider ‘fault’ to be the right word. I personally believe your attitude to be the recipe for another failure.
This is the one political topic that my BF and I avoid entirely.
We agree on almost everything, except he truly believe that Bernie would have won whereas I’m just not convinced he would have.
@Kitten
I agree. I think Bernie had some truly great ideas but I do not believe he would have won.
My boyfriend gave a frank, kind of mean assessment of America but I believe he had a point. He said that a large swath of America is obviously dumb, sexist, and racist. We want the pretty, charismatic candidate…..not the workhorse. If it is a woman or POC, they have to be squeaky clean with little baggage, while men like Bush and Trump can have so much baggage. He said the “white lash” meant that there was no way they were going to elect Clinton (the dumb emails, Bill’s baggage, and some legit baggage) or Sanders (the Socialist thing) after Obama…especially with the Electoral College being so messed up and giving so much weight to the Rust Belt, PA, and FL. I never thought Trump would win, but he was worried from the get go.
The good news is that if my boyfriend is correct we have some squeaky clean, pretty, charismatic, intelligent candidates with little to no baggage for 2020 (Kamala Harris, Julián Castro, Sherrod Brown, Elizabeth Warren). My worry is the DNC is going to pick Cory Booker though. If people wanted to bitch about Hillary’s Wall Street connections, one needs to take a very hard look at Cory and his charter school and Wall Street issues.
The collective freakout Democrats are having since Hillary lost is part of a much bigger issue the Dem Party is facing: Since 2009 the Dems have lost tons of House seats, Senate seats, Governorships, State legislatures, etc President Obama’s re-election win in 2012 seemed to mask the problem (and frankly proves that a big chunk of the American public only pays attention to politics during Presidential election years). If the Dems want to win again they need to focus on what drove that bigger trend. The problem is much bigger than whether Hillary campaigned in PA or not.
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I’m a bit tired of Shailene. Mainly because she was one of the ones advocating throwing out the votes of PoC to make Bernie the nominee. No, Bernie would not have won. He couldn’t win the primary and was only bolstered by caucuses that actually surpress the votes of working folks that can’t stand around and yell with millenials for 2-3 hours. Bernie could not win over the Democratic coalition and that already puts him at a disadvantage. He wouldn’t have gotten HRC levels of AA turnout. Once you add in the fact that superdelegates would need to take the nomination away from the first female nominee after she rightfully won the thing with over 2mil more votes thanks to the overwhelming support of PoC, you would be dealing with a revolt of epic proportions. How do you go into swing states and tell PoC voters/women to come out for your nominee after you tossed out their vote? You don’t. If you think the hurt feelings from some die hard Sanders supporters were an issue, imagine the flat out betrayal that many Dems/HRC supporters would have felt if they had won the nomination only to have it thrown to a man who didn’t.
And let’s not whitewash what a mess Bernie’s campaign relative to the Clinton campaign was during the primary. Do you think it would have been any better during a general? Yes, the Clinton campaign made some mistakes during the general, but to act like a potential Sanders campaign would have been pristine and perfect is just insane to anyone that followed the primary. Remember when Planned Parenthood was part of the corrupt democratic establishment? Or how they went into state after state unprepared and unfamiliar with the rules. What about how they empowered folks like Sarandon or Cornell West? Nina Turner loses voters everytime she opens her damn mouth. Hell, Bernie’s post election “I told you so tour” has already managed to rub folks the wrong way.
Fair point about HRC share of AA vote being 88%, still pretty high and I agree, I don’t see BS getting that.
If Bernie was going to win, he would have won the primary, simple as that. We all wanted to believe America was better than that – well, it’s not. And now we see that the real work begins. We’re just unfortunate enough to live in an age that requires us to test the mettle of our beliefs.
With Bernie as its head, the Democratic Party can kiss the AA vote goodbye. Keep chasing that white working class vote you haven’t won since the 60s, Dems…
Bernie was virtually unknown before the Democratic primary. That hurt him with getting more AA votes. I knew many young AAs who voted for Bernie, but older voters and AAs in the South were more loyal to the Clinton name. They probably mistakingly believed she had a greater chance of winning the general election. Across the board, Bernie won a larger portion of young voters of every race compared to Clinton. I also saw that as time went on in the primary, and as more people knew about Bernie, his AA numbers climbed.
Even though more AAs voted for Clinton in the primary, it did not translate to a large voter turnout among AAs in the general for Clinton. There wasn’t enough enthusiasm for her among AA and young voters for her to win. We’ll never know if Bernie would have been able to get the AA vote out had he won the general, but he would likely have had greater enthusiasm among younger voters and independents.
I do know some people who wanted Bernie but ended up voting for Trump/not voting/third-party to avoid voting for Hillary. Whether that involves misogyny, Russian hacking … I really don’t know. But where I live now, it was always going to be a Republican :/ Most people here (excluding myself – I’m a fish out of water here), would never, EVER vote for someone who was pro-choice, let alone a woman. We’re talking about a place where women still argue about whose plate you make first – your husband’s or your child’s (for the record, your husband’s. It’s Biblical) *rolling my eyes so hard*
Love Shailene’s jumper on the cover. Anyone know what brand it is? It’s cute.
I truly respect her for her NoDAPL participation, but her comments here are …very young. But she’s not wrong.
For those who see Shailene’s point and tend to agree with her politics, I recommend watching The Young Turks and Democracy Now, and reading Glenn Greenwald and The Intercept, Robert Reich, Common Dreams, Naked Capitalism, Cornel West, and Shaun King. There are many people out there who aren’t brainwashed by corporate media and believe there are better solutions than what either the Democrats or Republicans are offering the country right now.
From an external point of view this is what I perceive:
I followed your election closely and I have to sadly say, that as a foreigner I thought her lost was posible around September. Many leftist media around the world saw it coming.
I’ve read in different sites so many of the “real” reasons of Trump’s win: She didn’t appealed to the working class or the progressive youth, that her campaign was poorly run, that Trump appealed the most basic and worst insticts of people, people are stupid and racist, the false equivalencies between all of Trumps disgusting behaviors and Hillary’s emails, Trump’s basic but effective rhetoric, sexism, how the media gave a platform to Trump stupidity instead of focusing in Politics, voters apathy, the fact that your voting system is not democratic (in the sense of electing what the actual majority choses)…
I believe all of them are true. All these sectors had a fault in what happened. But I think that ultimately HRC lost was the result of too many elements in a very complex moment in the social and political climate around the world, and the rise of far right parties are the perfect example of that.
I don’t think Shailene is wrong at all (I really like her and I do think she is a good person). She is saying what she saw BUT it is hardly the only reason why the USA ended with Trump as president.
She was right. Clinton lost all those swing states that Bernie won in the primary.
Sanders would also have gotten a bigger margin in the popular vote.
I live in small-town middle America. In fact, I live in Pence’s hometown. I’ve encountered folks who ultimately voted for Trump profess their LOVE for Bernie. Like, Bernie bumper sticker and Trump yard sign. I think it’s because both Trump and Bernie are perceived as anti-establishment.