It’s mind-blowing to think that one of King Charles III’s first acts was to declare Prince William the new Prince of Wales. That title designation was something which could have been delayed thoughtfully, to give the people of Wales a moment to reflect and speak about how they feel about the title. It was genuinely unnecessary to “fill the title” immediately, especially before KCIII’s coronation. In the weeks to follow KCIII’s announcement, Welsh people have not been happy. Their new PoW – the man who knew for 40 years that he would eventually assume the title – can’t speak Welsh and has little associations with the people of Wales. The PoW title – known as Tywysog Cymru – also is a historic symbol of oppression by the crown. So, interesting news? A Welsh council has voted to abolish the Prince of Wales title.
A Welsh council has voted in favour of a motion calling for the Prince of Wales title to be abolished. Plaid Cymru councillor Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn tabled the Gwynedd Council motion which dubbed the monarchy an “archaic oppressive tradition”.
Last month King Charles named his son William as the new Prince of Wales in his first public address as monarch. The title has been controversial since the last Welsh Prince of Wales, Dafydd ap Gruffydd, was brutally killed in 1283 on the order of Edward I of England, who later gave his 16-year-old son Edward II the title.
Gwynedd councillors voted by 46 to four in support of Mr ap Elwyn’s motion while four abstained, the BBC reports. The council does not have the authority to officially end the title.
Mr ap Elwyn, who represents Bowydd and Rhiw, told BBC Radio Cymru he wanted “relevant authorities to consult formally with the people of Wales on the question of whether the title should be abolished or not”. The councillor added: “Wales today is a modern, democratic country, with a Senedd making progress, giving the people of Wales a voice and a platform to drive change and develop the nation.
“This archaic oppressive tradition is a blight on our nation and has been for centuries. It gives the impression that the people of Wales are owned by the system, rather than being free citizens living in our own country… It makes no sense, in my view, that so much public money is used to sustain the royal family, including the Prince of Wales role, given the cost of living crisis that our people are suffering up and down the country.”
In his motion he called for the council to “express its opposition to the continuation of the title”. He also asked the council to oppose any investiture of the prince in Gwynedd or elsewhere in Wales.
Prince William and Princess Catherine are understood to be “very clear [the title] is a long-term thing”. A Kensington Palace source said they wanted to “deepen trust” with the Welsh public by frequently visiting Wales — including a trip to Cardiff before Christmas and the recent visits to Swansea and Anglesey. They are said to be keen to “use the platform they have to take the dynamic nation of Wales to the global stage”.
This reminds me a little bit of the local government of York trying to remove Prince Andrew’s York ducal title, in that it’s not up to the nation, principality, county or what have you to “remove” titles. This situation is basically just the Welsh council expressing their displeasure in a pointed way. I think it’s clear that it’s not exactly specific to Prince William, although I do wonder if a more charismatic prince had become PoW, they would feel somewhat differently. Charles held the title for over fifty years and he did so with a great deal of respect, by learning conversational Welsh, making speeches in Welsh and making frequent visits to Wales. The Welsh people know they’re not getting any of that with Pegasus and Buttons. It’s also notable that Wales isn’t like “no, it’s specific to William.” They just want to end the title completely.
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Cover Images.
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- Britain’s Prince William, Prince of Wales and his wife Britain’s Catherine, Princess of Wales visit the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) Holyhead Lifeboat Station in Anglesey, north west Wales on September 27, 2022.,Image: 726451037, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: PAUL ELLIS / Avalon
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- Prince William, Prince of Wales, and Catherine, Princess of Wales, visit St Thomas Church, a re-developed church in Swansea which supports people in the local area and across the City and County of Swansea. Tuesday 27 September 2022.,Image: 726477612, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: Geoff Pugh for the Telegraph / Avalon
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- Prince William, Prince of Wales, and Catherine, Princess of Wales, visit St Thomas Church, a re-developed church in Swansea which supports people in the local area and across the City and County of Swansea. Tuesday 27 September 2022.,Image: 726477710, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: Geoff Pugh for the Telegraph / Avalon
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- Britain’s Prince William, the Prince of Wales and President of the FA, centre, visits England’s national football centre at St. George’s Park to mark its 10th anniversary as the home of English football, in Burton upon Trent, England, Wednesday, Oct. 5, 2022.,Image: 728287524, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: POOL PHOTO, Model Release: no, Credit line: Rui Viera / Avalon
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- Britain’s Prince William, the Prince of Wales and President of the FA, centre right, stands with England soccer coach Gareth Southgate, centre left, as he visits England’s national football centre at St. George’s Park to mark its 10th anniversary as the home of English football, in Burton upon Trent, England, Wednesday, Oct. 5, 2022.,Image: 728290132, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: POOL PHOTO, Model Release: no, Credit line: Rui Viera / Avalon
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- Prince William, The Prince of Wales during a visit to St. George’s Park in Burton upon Trent to mark its 10th anniversary as the home of English football. Featuring: Prince William Where: London, England, United Kingdom When: 05 Oct 2022 Credit: PA Images/INSTARimages.com/Cover Images **North America Rights Only**
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- Prince William, The Prince of Wales during a visit to St. George’s Park in Burton upon Trent to mark its 10th anniversary as the home of English football. Featuring: Prince William Where: London, England, United Kingdom When: 05 Oct 2022 Credit: PA Images/INSTARimages.com/Cover Images **North America Rights Only**
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- The Prince and Princess of Wales during a visit to Trademarket, a new outdoor street-food and retail market situated in Belfast city centre, as part of the royal visit to Northern Ireland. Featuring: Prince William, Prince of Wales, Catherine, Princess of Wales Where: Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom When: 06 Oct 2022 Credit: PA Images/INSTARimages.com/Cover Images **North America Rights Only**
Good. Now put it to a Welsh-wide nationwide vote and abolish the title. (As well as the monarchy.)
Let’s be clear: Charles held the title because of THE QUEEN…..PERIOD.
This vote is one small step for Wales, one giant leap towards the collapse of the English monarshit.
Can the Welsh abolish the title or is it only The King Charles that can abolish it? It’s horrible that the Welsh can’t even have a say on their own crown. They need to leave the UK.
The Welsh people have no control over it. They would have done away with it centuries ago, if they could.
Looking at that first photo Will has very short stubby fingers…. or maybe just a really big egg head.
If you want to see short and stubby, check out his Dad’s finger situation.
Yeah, it’s really not helped by the lifelong recurring edema issue, is it?
William’s hands do not seem to match the rest of him meaning it seems he would have bigger hands. But he does have weirdly small hands like Trump. LOL.
@Seaflower: I don’t know if your observation was meant as a joke but I’ve always heard there’s a profound connection between someone’s hands shape and personality. Profilers use this as science. So here’s what I found:
Our hand is the catalog of our mind, so any latent or active antisocial habit in someone’s personality can be easily estimated by palmistry. If the fingers look short in comparison to the rest of the palm, it shows animal nature, carrying harsh behavior against real intellectuality, and these kind of people usually belong to the lower scale of humanity 😂.
According to palmistry, thumbs in particular reveal tons about one’s character. Clubbed thumb is also known as Murderer’s thumb. Congenital idiots usually have small thumbs. Both Charles’ + William’s thumb are short and stubby. Just saying…
@SugarHere it was an honest (if funny) observation. I was quite shocked looking at that first photo. But interesting info on palmistry…. must be *something* to it.
Sorry, but any line of thinking that uses phrases like ‘congenital idiots’ has no place in the modern world.
Sorry, but any line of thinking that excludes humor has no place in a healthy existence.
It’ll be up to Wales when Wales leaves Britain. The dragon is stirring. My prediction is for 2024.
Not sure if this is a common phrase or one you just made up, but I absolutely love the way “the dragon is stirring” sounds.
Lol thanks. I sort of made it up on the fly, but I bet other people have said it before.
@emilyc and @charlottew can I jump in on the fun? The “dragon” is often for China, what about the Lion for Wales… “The Lion is stirring…” “Don’t poke the Lion” etc…
Noo- The red dragon has symbolized Wales since 655 AD.
(Which is interesting because England leans so hard into the iconography of the legend of St. George slaying the dragon).
It is part of why George R. R. Martin vaguely modeled some of Daenerys Targaryen on Henry VII in exile, who used the red dragon on his banners.
This reflects a new dynamic for social change where younger generations aren’t looking for change within the system, they want to create new systems.
The red dragon was a symbol of Wales back from feudal/medieval times. It’s on their flag. 🏴
Kaiser! As always, the pic selection is 🔥🔥🔥, but “Pegasus and Buttons”??!! It’s really hard to do a chef’s kiss while spitting out coffee and laughing out loud.
In a normal system, these significant expressions of disagreement and protest would elicit some thoughtful engagement, but this is CIII, so it will be ignored.
C-Shell, oh, no, you missed it! They’re thoughtful engagement is visiting Wales MORE! When I read that, I immediately decided that there is not one brain in the entire Firm. Good God! So, let’s go for aggression.
Right on. I for one would appreciate it if the Princess Kate moniker were short-lived.
As I’ve learned from twitter, I believe you mean Princess of Wales. She is not styled as Princess Kate. That’s good because I gotta tell you there are so many of us who believe that the only Princess of Wales that we’ll acknowledge is Princess Di. I suggest she get used to being Kate Middleton, ’cause that’s never going to change.
Lol Charles knew exactly what he was doing.
Meaning he did this to screw William? 😮
Meaning he did this to screw Wales. William is an afterthought screw who still enjoys it.
Probably to anoint William before the Welsh could ask for it not to be used. If C3’d waited, the Welsh expressed displeasure would have made it very awkward to then give Will the title.
Ooooh. But that’s MUCH worse. We’re half a lifetime from the coronation. He’s trying to crash and burn first, eh?
He moved fast for a reason.
@Vertes or to have history say that it was Prince of Wales William and not Charles that it was yanked from.
Yeah, I think Charles moved fast to attempt to avoid sentiment for independence building up before William was made PoW. It was probably also deliberate to visit during the day celebrating Dafydd ap Gruffydd.
My bet is he thinks this will prevent Wales from becoming Scotland (or even NI) where more and more people are looking to break away from England. In actuality, it’ll probably make things worse. Especially because there is no way William will do the hard work of diplomacy he says he’ll do to build bridges with the Welsh.
Exactly. Yet another instance of the BRF shooting itself in the foot. It will definitely make things worse, and I think you’ll see it snowball into something much larger over the next few years. William and Kate are empty-headed lightweights with no talent or desire to build the proper diplomatic channels with the country England basically stole from the Welsh people.
Chuck gets to save face by not being the last “Prince of Wales” in the history books. I honestly think that is what matters the most to him. Also, it’s forever linked to Diana.
They “dubbed the monarchy an “archaic oppressive tradition” and didn’t understand spending so much money on it. I think they have summed it all up perfectly.
They very much did.
I lived in Wales for three years and I only want good things for the Welsh. They (and us here in England but it’s a different context) do not need the monarchy. 🏴
This will somehow be Megan and Harry’s fault 😂
The monarchy is swirling the drain.
I was surprised when Charles gave William the title so soon, and for a moment thought it was just a statement to put an end to speculation about the marriage between William and Kate, but now I’m thinking it was just so the Welsh didn’t have enough time to really consolidate opposition to it. They’ll still show opposition I’m sure, but it’s a little more difficult this way. Whatever he feels about their marriage, the retention of the Prince of Wales title for the monarchy would obviously be more important to Charles.
This. He knew that if there were any sort of discussion, or even just time left open for random commenters to opine, the Welsh would be overwhelmingly opposed.
Yeah, it’s always easier to get rid of a role in a organization when nobody is currently in it. Now that Peggers is in the role, it’s going to be harder. Of course, he’s only in the role in social media only, but it still (unfortunately) counts.
I saw an interview with Michael Sheen recently and he was pretty vocal about not liking the heir as PoW. He also said that no actual Welsh person has held the position since the 16th century, which really rubs the Welsh the wrong way.
Love that they want to do away with the title and investiture👏🏼👏🏼 Here’s to an independent Scotland, Wales and a unified Ireland. I am looking forward to England standing alone without any commonwealth countries someday soon.
How the hell does a person who knew his whole life that he was going to be a world leader only speak one language? He must have been asked then told to learn Welsh countless times. His willful ignorance is going to cost his country dearly. Countless people lost their lives so England could be the sovereign of the country they happened to be born in. Here’s this asshat who couldn’t be bothered to learn the language of the one that’s not only in his title, but is also like, ya know, RIGHT THERE. What a petulant, small man.
Right? Given the endless resources of the BRF, they could have given him language tutors, overseas stays during the summers, and language-fluent Nannies to make sure he grew up conversant, if not fluent, in multiple languages. My peasant heart cries over the missed opportunities!
And so many of the royalist websites lie blatantly saying that he speaks 5 or 6 languages fluently. Fluent my a$$…
William is going to be a “world” leader? I’m not even sure that he’ll be a leader of England. Wouldn’t that be the prime minister?
THIS. It’s appalling. I would (almost) kill for the luxury of learning languages as a job. And all of the best resources for him to learn at his fingertips. At the bare minimum he should have learned Welsh. What other signal do the British need to realize he has no figs to give about Any of the alleged duties on the other side of the privilege.
Bwahahaha 🤣🤣 One month! Heckle & Jeckle…fired **AGAIN**!! 🤣🤣 Hey W&K–y’all hear that?? The f*ck around and find out Karma Express is pulling in to the station, and I am HERE for it! 🤣🤣 This ought to screw up KkkHate’s fresh botox…🤭
I love that for him.
You have to wonder how many times this family will have to told they are not wanted before they get it. They really should just confine themselves to the UK because with Camilla and Charles as their heads they are a pathetically impotent group. Old, pale and stale is the best they offer and what is waiting after them is just dumb, cold and stale.
Somehow I still believe William and Kate are taking this personally, especially William. He just got his PoW feathers and his holding the title is being met with objection (as place holder not personally). The Wales independence march on Oct. 1 had reportedly 10K in the streets, a big jump from the last march where they were 3K. It explains why there is no investiture; the Wailes don’t want international embarrassing headlines.
“They are said to be keen to “use the platform they have to take the dynamic nation of Wales to the global stage.”
This statement really rubs me the wrong way. As if Wales needs Egg McButtons to … do what for them exactly? Take them to the global stage? What the heck does that even mean? As if Wales somehow doesn’t currently exist and will only be considered an equal part of this world if W&K shine a light on them? Ugh. Shameful.
Scooby Gang: you have lots of company. It was an awful statement, very arrogant and delusional. How can those two dullards take anything to any stage, unless they have Harry & Meghan’s help in drawing a spotlight.
don’t like will or kate and generally think royals are useless but you’ve got to acknowledge that we’re reading an article about welsh independence on a gossip blog because the keens are involved – i don’t live in the UK, so yeah, they do bring international attention, just not positive attention lol
Well, that reign went down pretty fast lol just when they were about to be keen lol
This made me laugh! ‘Just when they were about to be keen’!
lol
Wow. I didn’t know this sentiment was stirring in Wales, but I suppose the RF was anticipating it. How awful to insist on using a title that stirs this sense of unfairness in people . . .
They should have considered retiring it with Charles.
Plaid Cymru is gaining traction. One of their leaders stated in an interview that his personal goal was to have Wales independent before Scotland.
Charles gave William the title so quickly to avoid/prevent any public debate about it.
Wales needs the rise of Arthur Pendragon to lead the way for independence. 🏴
Yes. We all need an Arthur Pendragon.
The title is a sign of colonialism. Wales has been through cultural genocide put on them by the English. Google “Welsh not”.
I would be very happy if the title was destroyed or would become something that the Welsh people themselves can decide who it belongs to.
@KLO- Holy shit!!!! I googled “Welsh not”, and omfg that is fucking vile. Talk about a systematic way to oppress a culture, starting with the kids ….I didn’t think I could be any more disgusted by English colonialism….I was so wrong……….
Yep. I think a lot of the ‘it wasn’t so bad really’ folk only think about the colonial horrors that happened far away and to people with brown skin (which is of course distasteful but you know, all in the past, shrugs and picks up the Daily Mail) but that’s far from the case.
Aging myself here, but I absolutely remember watching Charles be invested as the POW. It was broadcast in the states, which was unusual. (I vaguely recall Charles speaking in Welsh, to be honest I don’t remember how well he did or how it went over.) Mostly what I remember is how OTT the whole thing was and feeling pretty sorry for him, because he looked truly uncomfortable.
Yeahhhhhhh I can’t see W getting the same treatment.
Question tho for my over the pond friends.
Charles wasn’t married (obviously) at the time so it was just him being “crowned” but W is so would there be something in the ceremony that would include K?
I’ve tried to find the date but I remember Diana learning some Welsh phrases for her first public speech. I’m guessing she was still in her early 20’s. You can bet Meghan would be fluent in Welsh if POW was her role.
@Lizze
I can’t copy the link but go to YouTube and look up
“Princess Diana gives speech in Welsh”
It should be the very first video to pop up
Maybe someone else can post it
@Lizzie — here’s the speech Diana gave where she speaks some Welsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2sjrbK3J3k
@Jaded
Thanks!!!! It wouldn’t let me copy it for whatever reason
There’s no provision for the Princess of Wales in the ceremony so I imagine it would have to be improvised if she was even included.
That said, I don’t think they’re stupid enough to have an investiture for William.
I’m old enough to remember that splashy investiture ceremony too. No way they could get away with that now.
I agree, I don’t think they’d dare do it now. But we are talking about the keens, so….
I was a viewer too, they pulled out all the bells and whistles for that investiture which definitely wouldn’t go over well now.
We’ve been watching Wrexham on Hulu–the reality show about Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney buying the Welsh football team. One of the episodes showed Rob learning Welsh over zoom, and he introduced his teacher-and then showed him doing a speech with some phrases in Welsh. He clearly feels a responsibility to learn some of the language to show respect to the people of Wrexham. All I could think was, no way William and Kate have put in any effort to do the same thing.
That’s what i said last week about this…its sad when Rob McElhenney knows more Welsh than the Prince of Wales, lol.
And Rob McElhenney has an actual job so he managed to find time to learn it. William has had zero excuses to not learn Welsh.
Right? And I would argue that learning Welsh should be part of William and Kate’s job. No excuses.
In the 21st century, it’s probably not William specific. I think he could learn to speak Welsh and visit every week and the reaction would be the same. They don’t want an English prince. People were more accepting of Charles because 50 years ago things were different and his mother was queen and very popular. Nationalism was not as strong then either. At this point, the whole monarchy thing is more or less being held together with spit and chewing gum. And the royals know it which is a big reason why Charles made William PoW so quickly.
Charles can remove the prince of wales title from William and thereby giving William a chance to “shape his own life”. There’s a cousin he can call to ask how to do it.
William’s sense of entitlement without putting any effort is part of the problem. Him and his wife lived in Wales. They had the opportunity then to learn the language and be part of the community, but instead they ran off to London all the time. So now they expect the Welsh people to believe they’re going to try to bond, why should anyone believe them.
What’s interesting is that a number of European Princesses have gone or are going to school in Wales, but not one Princess from the house of Windsor has gone to school in Wales. These people take Wales for granted.
Charles can create the title Crown Prince and retire from use the Prince of Wales title.
Bill and Cathy have 4 (3 in England 1 in Scotland) homes and maybe Windsor Castle soon, but nothing in Wales? Charles had a home in Wales for years, yes?
Actually they’ve got a Welsh property too now- https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gorgeous-welsh-home-thats-just-25149155.amp
Where is are pie chart of people/places not wanting Bill and Cathy? Caribbean, N. Ireland. Now Wales wants to abolish their titles. OMG, Any chance Bill and Cathy will loose the POW titles to keep Wales in the UK? The irony of Cathy perusing this title for 20 years is almost too much.
Is this a common sentiment in Cymru? Are there any Welsh people here that can give their pov? I was reading about this on a Welsh news website and most of the comments were that the Royal Family was not the problem. I would think most of Wales would want the title abolished, but the comments in support of the crown on there has me confused.
My family are Welsh and whilst I live in England my parents, sister etc all live in Wales.
My impression is that Welsh people dislike the monarchy and the idea of the PoW title as a symbol of oppression, but that they don’t actually want to be independent from the UK as it doesn’t make sense from an economic perspective right now. That might change with remote working etc over time of course.
Can’t speak for all of Wales obviously but there is a massive rise in Welsh speaking as all children now learn in school and national pride is at a high.
My todddler niece speaks more Welsh than I do already and that’s partly to do with promotion of Welsh language and Welsh culture that just wasn’t there a generation ago.
What I find interesting is that Charles failed to get William ready for this at all. He knew how hard it was for him to do it so to not prepare William – what does that say? My guess is Charles’ pettiness again. He set his son up for failure so that people would say if only he were like his father. It’s a long game to play but it seems to have worked. And look at the reception of Kate in Northern Ireland. I’m sure that one woman speaks for many. W&K should have spent these past years laying some groundwork for themselves. Instead they engaged in tabloid spats and doing the bare minimum as royals. Two lessons: You reap what you sow and players getting played.
I think Charles may have encouraged William to start preparing for his eventual role as PoW but as we all know, William is a stubborn, entitled, lazy brat and no doubt butted heads with his father again and again over his lack of focus and appreciation of his role. I agree…maybe Charles set him up deliberately to fail and become the monarchy’s scapegoat. It’s interesting as an outsider to watch the royals desperately clinging to relevance while the monarchy ship is sinking.
ROTFL with pegasus, that’s all I can handle for today
Would William care if he wasn’t Prince of Wales? He seems like he would only care about the money from the Duchy of Cornwall. I know Kate would care because Princess was her end game. What if William purposely gave back the titles to mess with Kate’s lifelong goal?
It’s actually kind of amazing that William really did get ALL of his parents’ bad traits and NONE of their good ones. I think he got Diana’s emotional side (which is usually just anger for him) without any of her emotional intelligence. He got all of Charles’ jealousy and pettiness without any of the work ethic. How does he not know how to have a basic conversation in Welsh when he knew his whole life he would receive this title? He is truly worthless. It is a disgrace that Britian is still supporting these do nothings when they are facing a huge housing/heat/food crisis. #AbolishTheMonarchy
I’m team Wales – the country. I’m part Welsh and have been teaching myself the language and there’s no excuse for William not learning it before now. Wales belongs to the Welsh not the English.
Surprised (not) that the title comes with yet another house! How many does this make now?
I have learned a lot and not surprised that most people in Wales don’t like William and Kate. This is the same as it is in Commonwealth countries. At the end of this century there will be no Monarch. Lots of money being wasted on just particularly people which is very sad. Scottish are seems to be not returning. Good luck!!!
“ They are said to be keen to “use the platform they have to take the dynamic nation of Wales to the global stage.”
Ryan Reynolds & Rob McElhennny’s “Welcome to Wrexham” is having more success with this than these clowns ever would.
What are ‘they’ going to do on the global stage?
Tap dance?
People around the globe want to live stress free lives with access to the basics, education, healthcare, housing, security,jobs to provide provisions.
They do not want to look up to others like themselves, they want to live fully.
Is he planning to sell Wales?
Business English is rarely inspirational.
I get Ryan Reynolds &Rob Mc Elhenny – they are investing in community values.
You know with 100% certainty that if Harry had been in line for the PoW title, he’d already have been fluent in Welsh, have spent significant time studying the country’s history, and have already spent time in Wales, with the people and things important to them.
Willnot, however, just spent his life making grabby hands and squawking “Mine! Mine!” like the seagulls in Finding Nemo.